Podcast Summary:

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: How to Have Healthy Conflict with Amanda Ripley (Best Of)

Hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle
Guest: Amanda Ripley
Date: August 17, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts dive deep into the anatomy of healthy versus high conflict with investigative journalist and author Amanda Ripley ("High Conflict"). Together, they unpack why conflict is essential in relationships, families, and society, and how we can shift from destructive, entrenched conflict to more constructive, growth-oriented disagreements. Through personal anecdotes, sharp insights, and concrete tools, the group explores why most of us fear or mishandle conflict—and how we might do it better. This episode focuses on the emotional and psychological roots of conflict, practical techniques for de-escalation and understanding, and how principles of conflict apply at every level of life—from romantic relationships to global politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is Conflict and Why Do We Need It?

• Amanda Ripley reframes conflict as necessary friction in our lives:

  • "We need conflict. We probably need more of it than we have... We just need a different kind of it." (04:10)
  • She distinguishes between ordinary/frictional conflict and “high conflict” (escalated, toxic, us-versus-them cycles).

• Conflict as Resistance & Growth:

  • "I like to think of it as resistance. Kind of like if you go work out, like you need some resistance, or else what are you even doing, right? And that's how we get challenged." (04:21)

• Internal vs. External Conflict:

  • Not all conflict is with others. Much begins within ourselves.

2. High Conflict vs. Good (Healthy) Conflict

• High Conflict is:

  • Circling, escalating, entrenched.
  • “Becomes conflict for conflict’s sake... It escalates. It begins to distort our perception. It's usually an us versus them kind of deal.” (05:54)
  • Rooted in contempt, predictability, chronic stress, a sense of righteousness.

• Good Conflict is:

  • Characterized by anger, sadness, frustration—but these emotions serve movement and understanding.
  • Has flashes of curiosity, surprise; there's a sense of “movement” vs. repetition.
  • “Anger’s okay. Anger means you want me to be better. Contempt means you’ve given up on me.” (06:53)
  • Movement vs. stagnation is the key differentiator. (07:16)

Notable quote:

"The biggest distinction between healthy conflict and high conflict is movement versus stagnation."
— Amanda Doyle (07:16)

3. Personal Relationships: Real-Life Example

• The hosts share a recent conflict and how their growth changed its outcome.
• Glennon: “I have great sympathy for the stagnation... When you get into conflict with someone you love... it’s a standing still. It’s a planting your feet in... because you’re trying to exist.” (09:09)
• Abby: describes the energy shift when someone pauses and returns to a conflict with softness and curiosity (10:36–12:00).
• Glennon: “It was the first time in my entire life... that I didn't immediately think... you're my enemy, and I have to figure out how to win this...” (12:00)
• Discusses role of shame and regulating oneself to have productive disagreement.
  • “I just have less shame right now than I ever had before. And when I enter a conflict with a base of an underlying belief that I'm not good... I will fight for my life.” (12:47)

4. Self-Regulation and Awareness

• Abby: “...the absolute essential need to, A, understand yourself and become aware of your own process inside conflict and to take care of your own business... to regulate your own self.” (15:38)
• Partners take responsibility for entering the conflict without carrying forward unresolved wounds, shame, or defensiveness.

5. Understanding vs. Agreement

• Key insight: You can understand someone and disagree.
• “You can both, at the same time, truly understand someone and vehemently disagree with them.” (17:24)
• This is vital in maintaining boundaries and beliefs while still striving for connection.

6. Good Conflict Principles at Every Level

• Amanda Ripley: Principles apply in personal and political contexts.
  • Systems are run by people; e.g., peace negotiations require people grounded in self-awareness and emotional regulation. (23:25)

7. Shortcuts & Tools for Healthier Conflict

1. The Pause

• Ripley recommends a genuine pause—minimum 30 minutes, with actual mental break (listen to music, watch TV)—to halt the body's escalation response. (26:47)
• Busts the myth: “The worst advice anyone ever gave anyone was don’t go to sleep angry.” (27:39)

2. Fire Starters (The Four Major Triggers of High Conflict)

Amanda Ripley identifies four “fire starters”:

1. Humiliation (28:30)
   • “This is the nuclear bomb of the emotions.”
   • Be aware of the subtle ways we inflict or feel humiliation.
   • “There's no one more dangerous than one who's been humiliated, even when you humiliate him rightly.” — Nelson Mandela (29:18)
2. Conflict Entrepreneurs (29:59)
   • People who escalate, delight in, or exploit conflict for power or self-worth.
   • Can be present in families (not just public figures/social media).
   • “It's constant recurring patterns of blame and hostility. So they are always a victim. Everything is humiliating.” (31:45)
   • Technique: Use the BIFF method (Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm) to interact and de-escalate. (34:34)
3. Corruption (43:02)
   • Loss of trust in “referees” (institutions); leads to people taking matters into their own hands.
   • Applies to personal relationships—if you don’t trust the “rules,” you bring “weapons.”
4. False Binaries (discussed briefly as a tripwire, but most time is spent on above three).

8. Uncovering the Understory (“The Right Fight”)

• Most surface arguments mask deeper needs/feelings.
• Look for themes: Respect and recognition, power and control, care and concern ("Am I loved/good?"), stress and overwhelm. (51:20)
  • “What is this conflict really about? ...It’s usually one of just four things.” (50:34)
• Use empathetic language, e.g., “The story I’m telling myself is...”
• Not every party needs to agree that something is about respect—instead, respect that one person experiences it that way. (55:11)

Example Stories:

• The “crock pot” divorce: The real fight was about lost dreams and agency, not cookware. (52:44)
• Dishwasher/delegation disputes mask issues of respect and family roles.

9. Looping / Tactical Listening

• A method for slowing conflict and fostering understanding:
  1. Listen carefully.
  2. Paraphrase what you heard, in your own words.
  3. Ask if you got it right (invite correction/clarification).
  • “...Getting in the habit of doing that all the time, not just when you’re in conflict, is really, really helpful to slow down that nervous system response that you’re having.” (48:53)
  • Once people feel heard, their “whole posture shifts.”

10. The Goal: Seek to Understand, Not to Be Understood

• “I tend to think I have to make sure I’m understood. That’s my goal. Less helpful, I think, than a different question... I’m just going to go in and say, my only goal is try to understand this person a little bit more.” — Glennon (57:45)
  • Amanda: “That’s the gold standard.” (58:24)
  • In arguments, try to shift from “judge and jury” to “detective or anthropologist.” (59:30)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Amanda Ripley:
  • “High conflict is a special kind of conflict that becomes conflict for conflict's sake. It escalates. It begins to distort our perception. It's usually an us versus them. Kind of deal.” (05:54)
• Amanda Doyle:
  • “The biggest distinction between healthy conflict and high conflict is movement versus stagnation.” (07:16)
• Glennon Doyle:
  • “I stayed soft. I've never stayed soft in my entire life in a conflict.” (14:23)

On Humiliation:

• “There's no one more dangerous than one who's been humiliated, even when you humiliate him rightly.” — Nelson Mandela (29:18, as shared by Amanda Ripley)

On Self-Awareness and Repair:

• “I think that not coming to an argument with shame deep underneath everything is the answer, and I haven’t worked that out yet.” (12:47, Glennon)
• “We were trying to clean up our side of the street.” (16:19, Abby)

On Understanding vs. Agreement:

• “You can both, at the same time, truly understand someone and vehemently disagree with them.” (17:24, Amanda Doyle)

Practical Tools & Acronyms

• BIFF: Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm — a method for communicating with conflict entrepreneurs (34:34)
• Looping: Paraphrasing and checking understanding as an active listening technique (48:53)
• “Scrap before you scrap”: Acronym for considering Stress, Care, Respect, Acknowledgement, Power before engaging in a fight (62:12)

Suggested Habits

• Take true pauses when emotions are high—do something that interrupts rumination.
• Use looping and curiosity in difficult conversations.
• Accept that you and the other party might experience or interpret things differently.
• Prioritize discovering the "understory" of conflict. (What is this fight really about?)
• Keep reminders (even index cards) with the core emotional themes to check in with yourself during conflict.
• If mediating, or dealing with a “conflict entrepreneur,” use BIFF to keep boundaries and de-escalate.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• What is good vs. high conflict: 03:31–07:54
• Personal relationship example/role of shame: 08:02–14:32
• Regulation & self-awareness: 15:38–16:44
• Understanding others is not agreeing: 17:23–18:08
• Traits of high conflict/fire starters: 28:29–35:31
• Handling conflict entrepreneurs & BIFF: 34:34–39:02
• Corruption and trust: 43:02–47:01
• Root causes/understory of conflict: 50:34–56:58
• Looping: tactical listening: 48:53–50:28
• Questions/intentions in conflict – seek understanding: 57:45–59:29
• Acronyms & closing concepts: 62:05–62:43

Memorable Closing Notes

• “I think that’s it: if you could just be like, wow, I’m gonna try to... shift from being a judge and jury to being a detective or an anthropologist.” (59:30, Amanda Ripley)
• Listeners are invited to share their most common “crock pot” (recurring) argument and what’s really underneath it. (63:27)

Conclusion

This is an episode rich in practical wisdom and emotional candor—the hosts and guest model vulnerability and growth. Central takeaways are that healthy conflict is about movement and curiosity, never humiliation or entrenched right/wrong dynamics. Practical techniques abound: pausing, recognizing fire starters, focusing on understanding, looping, and being emotionally honest about your needs. Whether you’re fighting about a crock pot, a dishwasher, or navigating political discord, the challenge—and possibility—is to drop the stories, look under the surface, and seek connection in the hard things.