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- [00:01]
Glennon Doyle
Running a small business isn't easy, and when it comes to hiring people, it can often feel like a full time job in and of itself. As a business owner, I know firsthand how crucial it is to find not just the right skills, but the right fit for your team's culture. That's why for me, the go to resource has always been LinkedIn jobs. LinkedIn isn't just another job board. It connects you with professionals you won't find anywhere else. Sometimes even those who aren't actively looking but would be open to the right opportunity. In fact, 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other major job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're missing out on the best candidates. What I love about LinkedIn jobs is how fast it works. 86% of small businesses get a qualified candidate within 24 hours. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com/hard things. That's LinkedIn.com hard things to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 different answers. Bull market or bear market? Rising or falling rates? Inflation up or down? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until that happens, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed themselves with NetSuite, the number one Cloud ERP. With this unified business management suite, you gain a single source of truth that provides the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. Imagine having real time insights and forecasting at your fingertips, allowing you to peer into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can focus more on what's next instead of looking backward. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com hardthings. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com hardThings netsuite.com hardthings.
- [02:15]
Abby Wambach
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have Alex L. With us today. Alix L. Who is helping heal the world, but who has her work cut out for her today with three of us.
- [02:32]
Alex L.
I can't wait. I'm ready.
- [02:33]
Glennon Doyle
Good.
- [02:33]
Alex L.
I'm ready.
- [02:35]
Amanda Doyle
This is gonna be a six hour podcast.
- [02:37]
Alex L.
Yes.
- [02:38]
Abby Wambach
Settle in everybody. Settle the hell in. Alex L. Who I just freaking adore, is an author, certified breathwork coach, podcast host and restorative WR teacher. Alex's writing came into her life by way of therapy and the exploration of healing through journaling and mindfulness. Her most recent book, How We Heal so Beautiful, is available now. Welcome to we can do hard things. Alex, thank you for being here.
- [03:12]
Alex L.
Hey, y'all. Thank y'all for having me. I'm thrilled. I can't wait to dive in with y'all. This is going to be fun.
- [03:17]
Abby Wambach
I want to start Alex with this idea, which is I believed that the older I got, the more healed I would be, and the freer and bolder and badass and authentic. I just thought it was like a cumulative effort. And the further I got from being born, the further I would get from all of my problems. And what I have truly experienced over the past, really just five years. I'm 46 now, so in my 40s is Alex. I am closer to my childhood traumas and crap than I have ever been, which to me felt like a bit of a failure. But then I read you say that the older you got, the more your childhood wounds surfaced. Is that true or were you just saying that? Because I need to know. And my follow up question is, what the hell?
- [04:34]
Alex L.
Yeah.
- [04:35]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [04:36]
Alex L.
So hell yes, it's true.
- [04:38]
Abby Wambach
Okay.
- [04:40]
Alex L.
I am 33, and I feel like when I turned 30, all of my childhood stuff just came to the surface. And I think that's because I was doing some really challenging, deep healing work on my own. I look at healing as, like layers. So I was peeling back these layers of my emotional onion, thinking, oh, yeah, I got this. I'm fine. I'm growing, I'm changing. And then it's like, oh, that can be true. And I can still have so much work to do. And I have three children, I have daughters. And so I found that with every birth of a kid, I had even more stuff to work through, from my own mother wounds to really trying to be the best woman I could be for myself so that I could lead by example for my girls, and then mourning the fact that nobody considered me in that way. So it really just started to hit me like, damn, the older I get, the more healing I have to do. Yes. What the hell? But also, okay, I have the tools that I didn't have.
- [05:56]
Abby Wambach
Interesting.
- [05:57]
Alex L.
Back then. Yeah.
- [05:59]
Abby Wambach
Another thing you said helped me with my original problem, which was is your idea of self awareness. That as self awareness increases. So good news, bad news. Like, you're a self aware creature. Wonderful. But a lot of things that you become aware of are your own challenge, your own wounds, right?
- [06:26]
Alex L.
Yes. Yes.
- [06:27]
Abby Wambach
This is why people avoid going to the doctor because it's like, yay, you had an X ray, Boo. Now you have all the information that the X ray reveals. So is it kind of a Positive thing too, because it's. It's people who are. The more. Maybe the more introspection I'm doing, the more work I'm doing, the more what I need to heal becomes apparent.
- [06:51]
Alex L.
I think it's a beautiful thing. It's a pain in the ass thing, but it's a beautiful thing because as I write in my new book, when we heal ourselves, we heal our lineage. When we heal ourselves, we heal each other. Right. So we really have to start looking at, looking at our stuff as this act of community service. Because when we don't know what we have to tackle, when we don't know what we have to heal or we know, but when we don't address it continuously perpetuates this cycle of ignoring things and hoping that they're going to go away, but they're not. And then we pass that on to our children, we pass that on to our spouses, we pass that on to our relationships in our workplace. Right. So if we continue to ignore ourselves, we're never going to be able to see other people. Damn.
- [07:45]
Glennon Doyle
How much is this, do you think, related to, like, mortality? Because, you know, as, as you go through your 20s, it feels like 20s are just like, what is life? I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And then you kind of start settling into a groove. Well, some of us, I didn't really until I was in my 40s. How much do you think of this process of healing has to do with the idea of, oh, I'm. I may be midway through my life. I'm getting close to midway through my life. Should I start this process now? Obviously this stuff isn't going away.
- [08:15]
Alex L.
Mm, maybe. I know for me, I wanted to start sooner than later because I saw my mother suffering, I saw my grandmother suffering, I mean, and how I was raised. I'm surprised I'm not suffering. But I'm a big, I'm. I'm a big believer in the power of choice and choosing to do something different, choosing to be self aware, I think is essential to being able to be in relationship not only with ourselves, but with other people. And so I didn't want to wait till I was in my 50s or 60s or 70s. I mean, I talked to my grandmother. She's nearing the end of her life, and she has a lot of stuff that is just now coming to the surface for her because she sees the work that I'm doing. Wow. And so again, when we heal ourselves, we heal each other. We're leading by example. I would encourage folks to start looking at your wounds and to start celebrating your joy as soon as you can. Because when we're able to do that, it just starts the cycle of healing a little bit sooner.
- [09:21]
Amanda Doyle
Can we talk about that healing of lineage? Because your personal story is really remarkable in that your mother and your grandmother lived in survival mode in raising the next generation, and then you were determined to break that cycle and found yourself pregnant by the time you were 18. And everything would have pointed to you continuing on the same cycle. What was it in you that was so dramatic as to overcome all the myriad reasons why that cycle should have continued?
- [10:10]
Alex L.
I knew what I didn't want. I knew that I wanted to be the best woman I could be for myself and that baby that I had at 18, I had no idea what I was doing. None. I wish it didn't take teen motherhood to kind of like, get me to where I am, but that's the part of the journey and the story for me. Right. And so I think knowing that I didn't want my children to fear me, knowing that I didn't want to pass down my pain to them, knowing that I wanted to be different from how I was raised, I just. It just clicked. I don't know. I don't know if it was God. I don't know if it was the universe's energy, but I was just like, this stops with me.
- [10:59]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [11:00]
Alex L.
And my oldest. My oldest, oh, my God, she'll be 15. She just started high school. And she is the sweetest soul. She is the sweetest soul. And I often look at her like, wow, look what healing does. When you love yourself, when you are choosing to do differently, look what can happen.
- [11:26]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [11:26]
Alex L.
Our children are our mirrors. I truly believe that. And I was young, black, unwed. All the things stacked against me, and I refused to be who people said I was going to be because there was no way I was going to let anyone continue to tell me who I could and couldn't be.
- [11:49]
Abby Wambach
When you say I knew what I didn't want, I mean, I think that's kind of everything. Right? Because even that awareness means you are aware that this is, in some ways a thing I could build or not. It's not just the world as it is. Right. It's something that I can have agency in. When you say I knew what I didn't want, what are you saying you didn't want? What were the women in your family modeling that insulted your soul?
- [12:21]
Alex L.
I grew up in a very abusive home. My mom was filled with rage and anger and I got the brunt of that physically and verbally. And I was terrified of her. I grew up feeling like I was hated. I grew up feeling like I was unwanted and a mistake. And I never wanted my children to feel like that. And I didn't want to feel like that anymore. So I had to make the choice to, like, okay, if my mother couldn't love me in the way that I think I deserved to be loved, I have to find a way to love myself. I mean, a big part of me getting pregnant at 18. Cause I was searching for love in all the wrong places. I didn't value myself, I didn't value my body. And so that had to change because I was having this kid, another black girl, you know, And I didn't want her to grow up hating herself. I learned self hatred before I learned self love.
- [13:27]
Abby Wambach
Wow.
- [13:30]
Alex L.
And it's interesting. My mom and I had a conversation when I was 30. This is probably why all this shit hit the fan.
- [13:37]
Abby Wambach
Because conversations will do that, won't they?
- [13:40]
Alex L.
Yeah. When my book after the Rain came out, which is like part memoir, part guide. And I talk a lot about me and my mom's relationship in that book. And I am a big believer in that. My stories are not just my stories. And so I gave her the book and I wrote her a letter. And I said. I bookmarked the pages that were about us. And I said, whenever you're ready to talk, I would love to talk to you about this. And my mom and I had started repairing our relationship. We were able to relate to one another as women and not just mother and daughter. And we sat down and we talked. On my 30th birthday, she apologized to me for the first time. And she said, I am sorry for not being able to show up for you. I had so much going on. I was so angry and so enraged. And years ago, I probably would have been like, that's a cop out. That's an excuse. But being in the healing that I was in and that I am in, I was like, I see you. I see you. I understand where you were in your life, and I understand what self hatred does, you know. And so it was interesting to have that, to start having those conversations with her as she was willing to tap into the work that she has to do and the healing that she has to do and had to do. And I think that that's. I know that there's a deep privilege in having a parent who can look at their stuff, Even if it's 30 years later and be like, I'm sorry. And I really screwed up.
- [15:22]
Abby Wambach
It's beautiful. It's unusual.
- [15:23]
Alex L.
Yeah, it's unusual. Yeah. Super proud of her for that. And also, there's a lot of grieving that happens because then I see her with my children, and she's an amazing grandmother. And in the beginning, I was like, oh, so you do know how to act. I used to laugh about that, you know, and. But, like, now it feels a lot lighter. But there was a point where I was like, whoa, that's hard to see.
- [15:46]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, yes. You talk also about growing up, about how you learned not by just what you saw, but what you did not see. You said you were taught to hide and to be fearful, and you were taught to be unhappy, and no one was telling you that, but you saw it by watching how the women who raised you behaved. And you said this, which I think is so beautiful. You said, it's hard to feel like you're coming from a loving home when all the women in your life were just trying to survive. All you saw was survival. You didn't see joy. Is that what your mom was doing? And if so, is there any healing that can be done when you are just in survival mode?
- [16:49]
Alex L.
Mm, yes, that is what my mom was doing. She was a single mom for a while, a long time before she met my stepdad. She was trying to climb her way up the corporate ladder and all those things. And so she was trying to survive. She was trying to raise me. She was trying to do the best she could with what she knew. And she didn't know much about love and parenting. She was leading by example. She was leading by example, which was not a great example.
- [17:21]
Abby Wambach
We all are, right?
- [17:23]
Alex L.
And I think there is healing that can happen in survival mode, but that has to come with self awareness. That has to come with understanding that you're hurting and taking a step back from trying to survive, but trying to hold yourself during that survival. I often say that adults also need self soothing. We don't normally take ourselves up on that, but we need that too. I mean, slowing down in order to see ourselves is important.
- [17:58]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [18:08]
Glennon Doyle
It'S hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up. My dream mentor, Amy Poehler. I was so excited when I heard that she has a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. It's the only streaming platform where you can grow with over 200 of the world's top experts for just $10 a month. An annual membership gets you unlimited access to every instructor whether you're watching on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even in audio mode. One of the classes that just really stood out to me was Building Life Changing Habits with New York Times bestselling author James Clear. I use this and you should too. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com hard things for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com hard things masterclass.com hard things hello ladies, germs and everybody out there. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out, Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondry plus and the OneDry app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
- [20:22]
Abby Wambach
Instead of giving more stuff this holiday season, why not make your gifts truly personal and meaningful? Shutterfly makes it easy to create custom photo gifts that your family and friends will cherish.
- [20:32]
Amanda Doyle
The most thoughtful gifts in my book are the gifts that remind you of a memory that you've already had with someone, or a moment that you don't want to forget and you just want to cherish. That is what is so cool about what Shutterfly does and the gifts that you can create there. Even if you're not super sappy on the old technology, if you know what.
- [20:53]
Abby Wambach
I mean, you can upload your favorite photos and start customizing in minutes.
- [20:57]
Amanda Doyle
Last year I got Alice this wonderfully precious pillow that had a picture of her and our golden retriever Seamus on one side and a different picture of our golden retriever Seamus on the other side so as she goes to sleep and cuddles, she can think about the two of them cuddling there and her adventure she'll have the next day.
- [21:16]
Abby Wambach
And right now you can enjoy 40% off your order with the code HARD THINGS plus free shipping on qualifying orders. Check the site for details. Isn't it the healing that you did that allows you now to see your mother just as someone who wasn't healed?
- [21:39]
Alex L.
Yes.
- [21:40]
Abby Wambach
I always think of, like, the work we do as a baton that we pass on to our kids. But it's not, it's backwards and forwards, right? It's like to our kids. And I see it, what you're seeing, that we give it backwards to generations before us. Because your healing allowed you to not think I'm a bad, unlovable person. Your healing allowed you to look at your mom and say, oh, she was just not healed. It's a gift that you were able.
- [22:05]
Alex L.
To give backwards, I would say. And I think that that's what healing is. It's a love offering to the world. When we heal our world, we start to heal the world. When we see ourselves, we start to see other people. And for so long, especially if you grew up, like, not feeling seen, not feeling safe or supported, it is really, really, really challenging to be in relationships that are healthy, that are rooted in healthy communication, that aren't rooted in codependency. Like, it's all these things that you just have to learn on your own. Which makes the healing even harder. Cause you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing or where to start or how to even, how to even begin to see myself. And so a lot of my work when I'm teaching and coaching people is like, what do you want and what do you see? Who are you? What do you need? Like, those basic questions, those back to basic questions has helped so many people kickstart their healing. Because no one has ever asked that exactly what do you want?
- [23:18]
Abby Wambach
Right? And you're flipping it because I feel like we're always told as women, if you heal your community, if you serve your community, that is self care.
- [23:29]
Alex L.
That's your value.
- [23:30]
Abby Wambach
You will, you'll feel better, Just keep doing it. Healing your community, doing everything for your partner, your family. That's good enough for you women, you'll feel fulfilled.
- [23:39]
Amanda Doyle
Trickle down healing.
- [23:40]
Abby Wambach
It's trickle down healing.
- [23:41]
Amanda Doyle
They're trying to sell trickle down healing.
- [23:43]
Abby Wambach
But you're saying the opposite because you care just as much about community care as anybody. But you're saying, heal thyself and that heals your community, not heal your community and that will heal you. Am I saying that right?
- [23:57]
Alex L.
You are absolutely saying that right. You are Absolutely saying that. Right. I think passing the baton, like you said, is absolutely what it is. It is backwards and forwards. Because my mom will say now, like, I inspire her. And that can be heavy too, because it's like, I wish I had someone who inspired me, you know, But I know that the healing that I'm doing is not just for myself. And a big part of grace and compassion is acceptance for who people are, where they are, and not trying to change the outcome because things sometimes are what they are. Yeah, that's.
- [24:39]
Glennon Doyle
I actually want to dig into that. There's a lot of our listeners that won't have a parent like your mom's was, that she could come to you and say with a little self awareness, even if it's minuscule. A lot of our parents don't have the emotional intelligence or the desire or the need or the understanding or the ability to look at themselves too.
- [24:59]
Abby Wambach
We call it parental fragility. It's like white fragility. But it's like the parents who are like, I care so much that I was a good parent that I can't hear that I wasn't a good parent. How do you heal?
- [25:09]
Glennon Doyle
How do we heal when we do have some of these childhood wounds? How do we heal when we don't have that reciprocity with a parent?
- [25:19]
Alex L.
Well, for years I didn't have that reciprocity and I would get really, really frustrated. So boundaries were really important and talks with my husband were really important. Talks with my close sister, friends, really important. So community, again, extremely important to be able to be like, wow, they are just not getting it. They don't get it. And a big part of that again is acceptance. We may not ever get what we need from the people who raised us. Yeah, like, ever. And that is a tough pill to swallow. But we can't force people and we shouldn't want to force people to change and be who we want them to be because it'll make us feel better. I don't want any disingenuous behavior in my sphere.
- [26:11]
Glennon Doyle
Interesting.
- [26:11]
Alex L.
Right? And so that doesn't make it easier. It's still really hard and hurtful. And there's a deep grieving that we go through when our parents, the people who brought us into this world, are incapable of seeing us and meeting us. But we have to remember what our work is. Our work isn't to change people by over talking things and forcing and trying to get them to understand. Our work is to lead by example. Everything else is a bonus. You know, focusing on our healing is all we can do, because we live in a world that tells us that we have to, like, control everything and that we have to know what we're doing and where we're going, and we don't. We may get lost along the way. We may feel lost more times than we feel found. And I think that that's a big part of the healing, too, is like accepting when the journey takes us to a place where we're kind of disoriented. Like, how do we come back home to ourselves and accept that, you know, my mom just can't meet me and I'm gonna have to walk this path alone?
- [27:29]
Abby Wambach
So you believe that the wound does not have to be healed by the person who did the wounding, that you can be healed separate from the person who hurt you.
- [27:42]
Alex L.
We must be healed separate from the person who hurt us. Because if we are not, we are going to continuously be in these cycles of, like, external validation and wanting the person to say sorry and wanting the person to. We can want those things. I'm not saying don't want those things, but there has to be acceptance when you don't get those things. That's the hard part. That's the healing work. It's like, how do I accept this? This is fricking terrible. They were awful to me. They hurt me. They didn't validate me. They didn't raise me how I think I deserve to be raised. So a big part of my healing was accepting that hard work, still working through it, but changing my behavior with how I raise my children and how I raise myself. Because as I parent my children, I am re parenting myself.
- [28:31]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [28:32]
Abby Wambach
That's why all the crap.
- [28:34]
Alex L.
That's why all the crap.
- [28:35]
Abby Wambach
That's why all the crap. Because we're looking forwards and backwards. We're like, I love you so much. Here's what I want for you. Wait, why the hell didn't I get that? Like, yeah. And that's why it pisses you off when your mom calls and asks you 7 million questions about your kid because you're like, wait a minute. What is healing, Alex, Your definition of healing? Like, what are we doing when we're healing? Why do we need it? What is it? How do we know we need it?
- [29:05]
Alex L.
Oh, those are big questions. Yeah.
- [29:08]
Abby Wambach
And maybe there's no, like, just. It's an exploration, you know? Like, what do you think of when I ask you those questions?
- [29:15]
Alex L.
What is healing? Healing is a vulnerable act of self advocacy.
- [29:26]
Amanda Doyle
Self advocacy.
- [29:29]
Alex L.
Healing is the choice to choose yourself.
- [29:34]
Abby Wambach
So if you are Self advocating, which I'm obsessed with that response. That means you have to have a self to advocate for. So there has to be a prerequisite to healing, which is, who am I and what do I need and why am I hurting?
- [29:52]
Amanda Doyle
Which is the self awareness.
- [29:53]
Abby Wambach
What am I not getting that I need?
- [29:54]
Amanda Doyle
Which is why that self awareness is the first step to any healing is because it all comes from that center core.
- [30:04]
Alex L.
I think realizing that you are a self and that you matter just as much as anybody else in this world is reason enough to do some healing work. People get scared by the word healing because it's like, that's a big thing, right? But healing, Healing is not just tackling the trauma. Healing is also celebrating joy. It's a celebration of joy. Because when you see someone who's quote, unquote, unhealed or who is in their hurting state, you can tell. You can tell. You can feel it, how they interact, how they speak, all those things. And so when we are able to be like, I don't just have to be healing to heal that thing that hurt me, to fix that thing that hurt me. I can be healing and have that be this deep celebration of, I am still here today. Getting up out of bed is healing. When depression is hard and anxiety is hard, I walk through the world with both. I take Zoloft for both. It's finally working for me, and it feels amazing. That is healing. Going to therapy is healing. Going for my morning walks, I just celebrated a year of walking every day. That is healing. That's a celebration of joy, right? So it's like, how do we get people, especially women, to understand that our aliveness is enough to start the process?
- [31:40]
Abby Wambach
That's gorgeous. Because we also think of healing as it has to be so damn traumatic, right? But I love what you're saying, which is like, actually, can we just sometimes return to our damn aliveness? I think the reason why it's so confusing and hard to grip, it's like, slippery. Is because it's actually quite revolutionary. This insistence that there is a self, that we women have a self, that you as a black woman, are like, no, myself. And my healing is as important as all of this, the world I'm supposed to care take. It's quite countercultural.
- [32:19]
Glennon Doyle
And also the whole idea that, Alex, you want there to also be joy in healing. Like, this is the first time I've ever experienced that. To me, I thought healing was just feeling better. It wasn't an action. It was just like time was going to heal all wounds. And Then I'd feel better. But maybe I was getting half of it right. I was an AM and always have been going towards joy, which is a healing mechanism.
- [32:47]
Amanda Doyle
Alex. That idea of. Of joy or the will to be alive as being healing. You said that often what scares us most is not having that lingering feeling of suffering, waiting for the shoe to drop. So when we're in a place of not healing, is it that we feel so comfortable in the suffering, that anything that feels like alive is so different and uncomfortable? That strikes me as so terribly true.
- [33:33]
Abby Wambach
It feels illegal. It feels like you're not supposed to have it. They're going to get struck down.
- [33:39]
Alex L.
Oh, my gosh.
- [33:40]
Amanda Doyle
What's that about, Alex?
- [33:42]
Alex L.
Oh, my gosh. I don't know what it's about, but all of us go through it. I know that when I. When I met my husband, he comes from a big family, and they are, like, really lovey dovey, super supportive, like, very different from how I was raised. And I remember being like, I don't want to be a part of this family. Too much love happening over here. It felt so foreign to me that I was willing to leave. And I told him, I don't want a family with you. This was before we were married, and I was looking for a way out because I was like, this is too good. His mom loves me. His family loves me. They're kind to me. I'm not worthy of this joy. And Ryan said to me, all I want to do is love you. Why won't you let me love you? And that question for me was really, really hard to reckon with, because love for me meant conditional. Love for me meant, I love you when you are pleasing me and when you are shutting up and sitting down, and when you are doing what I say, and if you aren't, I'm taking my love away from you. So love for me always felt like this carrot dangling. And so I never thought I was really worthy of the love and the joy and the. The ease, the easefulness that I was receiving. I was so used to chaos and dysfunction that it felt really foreign to have peace in my life.
- [35:22]
Amanda Doyle
Suspicious even.
- [35:24]
Alex L.
Like, oh, what you up to? Like, literally suspicion. Suspicion. And here's something that I've grown into. One I tell my students and my clients often, give yourself permission to be in the middle of your healing. You don't have to be at the ground up. You don't have to be sky high, you know, thinking that, oh, my gosh, I've arrived. First of all, there's no arrival in healing. We're going to be healing till the day we die. Yes. Okay. I'm just telling y'all now. I know some of y'all might not like to hear that, but Thich Nhat Khan taught me that there is healing always. Okay? Being in the middle. Easefulness is in the middle. Sweetness, tenderness, patience is in the middle. And so when I started looking at my healing and my the love and joy and all those good feelings that were happening as like ease and being in the middle, it felt more comforting. It felt like it felt more accessible. You know, it didn't feel like someone was just going to snatch it from me.
- [36:43]
Abby Wambach
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- [39:33]
Alex L.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- [39:35]
Abby Wambach
Because that's what I wonder about healing. For me, is it just a constant replacement of wrong thinking? Like we were taught a certain way to survive in our little ecosystems, and then later that system got bigger and bigger and bigger and we were exposed to different ideas and rules. And maybe the little rules in our teeny ecosystem aren't necessary and aren't working for us anymore in the bigger world. It feels to me like it's a constant thought replacement to make narrow rules wider and bigger and freer.
- [40:10]
Alex L.
I feel that a hundred percent. And when you were speaking, what was coming up for me was it's this constant unlearning to relearn. It's a cycle. It's a cycle because there's always going to be things that scare us in life. There's always going to be things that trigger us and make us go back to our old self. It's like, how do we redirect? How do we unlearn that? Okay, I was not safe then, but I am safe now. And so it is. It's that constant replacement. And not even constant, but it's that intentional replacement. It's that intentional redirection of, I was not safe then, but I am safe now. How? Why? So something I teach in my writing courses is like, okay, if you're saying I am safe now, I want you to then go and write down, why am I safe? Where am I safe? How am I safe? Who am I safe with? Prove it. To bring us back. That brings us back to that moment. And not even prove it, but like, remind yourself of where you are today, you know? And so it's hard healing. I don't want to say healing is hard, but being intentional about our wellbeing, about our self care, about our healing work, about our joy, it's not easy. I don't think it's hard, but it's not easy. We need deeply rooted Intention for sure.
- [41:37]
Glennon Doyle
Like you said, it's never ending.
- [41:39]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:41]
Amanda Doyle
Intentional being intentional to me, as I was reading your work, I was like, that's it. That's the whole ball game. Because it feels like when you are growing up again, you have these automatic survival responses to get you through it. And you can live your whole damn life that way. The whole way through. You could just keep operating on like your system default coding. But it's when those moments where you'd look and you say like, no, I want to do something on purpose. I don't want to do something because it's coded. I want to take an intentional action. Like when your baby was born and you suddenly had the mirror of her reflection back at you and you said, no, I'm going to do something on purpose. Now when you met Ryan and you were like, no, I. My coding says hell no. Run, run, red alert. I'm going to on purpose choose you.
- [42:43]
Alex L.
Mm, damn.
- [42:45]
Amanda Doyle
What are our daily on purpose intentional acts that aren't based on survival, but are based on our choice to do and act a certain way to lead our lives? What are those daily practices that we can begin to have ease even in the act of being intentional? Because that is an odd place to be if you've just been reacting to coding your whole life.
- [43:13]
Alex L.
Great question. I do self check ins a lot. Hey, girl. Yeah. What's up with us today? Yeah.
- [43:23]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [43:23]
Alex L.
How you feeling today? How you feeling today? Something else I ask myself is who are you Outside of my roles, who am I today, my feeling? Am I creative today? Am I lighthearted today? Am I cranky? Like, what is going on? Like, figure it out. And that really helps me because not only does it remind me that I am my own greatest teacher, it also reminds me to tune in and tap in to my truth of the day.
- [44:00]
Abby Wambach
That's right, of the day. Can we talk about that? I think one of my favorite things about yoga is my instructor who always says, okay, let's see what we're working with today. It's not like, who are you? And all of your. I'm like, I don't know. But today I'm kind of an asshole. Or it's like having. It's having a meeting with yourself. So you know what you're bringing to the world that day, right?
- [44:24]
Alex L.
Yes, yes, it's good today.
- [44:28]
Abby Wambach
Just.
- [44:28]
Glennon Doyle
I think it's good too, because you gotta check in with yourself. Almost do it every morning. Because when I walk upstairs and you're up there already and she's like, how are you how did you sleep? And she starts asking me these questions. I am now like, oh, I go into myself, but I haven't had that conversation with myself.
- [44:48]
Abby Wambach
First you don't even know.
- [44:49]
Glennon Doyle
And so then it becomes the performance, the autopilot of what does she want me to say so that I don't make this morning weird and all that stuff.
- [44:57]
Abby Wambach
Right? Such a good example.
- [45:00]
Glennon Doyle
So it's like maybe do like a daily check in with yourself in the morning before you talk to your partner.
- [45:05]
Abby Wambach
Maybe that's why we don't ever know what to say when people say, how are you? How are you? How are you? If you haven't, if you don't know.
- [45:10]
Alex L.
So everything I've started answering honestly.
- [45:13]
Abby Wambach
So tell me what you say. Alex, how are you?
- [45:17]
Alex L.
Well, today I'm not sure how I'm feeling. I'm not sure or I feel like shit actually. And then some people, a lot of people don't have the capacity for that.
- [45:26]
Amanda Doyle
Like, okay, well, okay, anyway, here's your fries.
- [45:30]
Alex L.
Right. But also here's something too that I've learned from my dear husband who can be very cranky. Okay, cranky guy. I'll be like, hey babe, how'd you sleep? How you doing? I'm like just waking up, babe. Like you're right. I'll check in with you in about, I'll give you an hour. I'll give you about an hour. You know, especially with the kids we have. So we have the 14 year old, we have a four year old and we have a newly three year old, she just turned three and he gets very flustered. So I, so I'm just like, okay, let babe wake up, let him brush his teeth, you know what I mean? Like I don't even talk to him in the morning anymore. I wait for him to talk to me. I'll look at him and just be.
- [46:15]
Glennon Doyle
Like.
- [46:19]
Alex L.
Like we know each other. And for those at home, I just did a head nod.
- [46:23]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's lovely.
- [46:25]
Alex L.
And I know that when he's like, hey babe. I'm like, oh, he's ready. He's done his check in, he's ready.
- [46:34]
Abby Wambach
I want to get to the hows of how you do this because you actually have, you have the little micro check ins, but you also have some practices, breathing, walking and writing. Can you talk to us about those three things? Breathing is so confusing to me. But I have had two of the most transformational experiences of my life when someone has made me breathe weird for an hour.
- [46:57]
Amanda Doyle
You mean correctly?
- [46:58]
Alex L.
Breathe correctly.
- [46:59]
Abby Wambach
Breathe correctly. Yes.
- [47:01]
Alex L.
Breathe intentionally. I call my work intentional breathing.
- [47:05]
Abby Wambach
Talk to us about it, please.
- [47:06]
Alex L.
Breath work. So how I found breathwork. I had a complete meltdown, an anxiety attack at the end of last year, and I had no idea, like, what life was. I was back at a really, really dark place. And what I realized after I came out of my fog of depression was I was holding my breath. I had literally. Not only was I holding my breath, but I had completely deprioritized myself in my life. During the height of the pandemic, I was teaching online. I taught 15,000 people and 18 months. And I loved it. It was wonderful. It was invigorating. It was community care. It was the, you know, leave yourself at the door and serve these people. I was taking care of kids. All five of us were home. It was a madhouse. It was ridiculous. And I literally would forget to eat. I would forget to drink water. I wouldn't even get out of the bed sometimes. I would be so tired. Tired of doing right. And I had a conversation with Ryan, and I was like, I don't want to be here anymore. I wasn't sure what I meant by that, but I was very disoriented, and I was just sobbing. And what I realized was that I had been ignoring myself for two years and that I was caretaking and caretaking for not only my outside community, but my inside at home community. And I was really devastated by getting so out of touch with myself. So then I was doing the whole beating myself up thing, you know, better you do this work, and now you're here, you know? And so I was like, okay, let's find a new therapist. Let's get back on medication, because I can't cure this with CBD oil.
- [49:20]
Abby Wambach
I have tried that too.
- [49:22]
Alex L.
Everybody freaking telling me cbd. I'm like, is not working.
- [49:25]
Abby Wambach
Alex.
- [49:26]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [49:27]
Abby Wambach
You can have my pantry gallons a day. My pantry is CBD oil.
- [49:31]
Amanda Doyle
No, just bathe in it.
- [49:34]
Alex L.
And so found a new practitioner, got on some meds. New meds that worked. Bah, whatever. Great. And then I came out of my fog, and I was like, wow, girl, you have been, one, deprioritizing yourself, and two, you've been holding your breath. So then I started looking at breathwork coaching certifications, because that's just how my mind works. It's like, I don't know how to breathe clearly because I need someone to teach me.
- [49:57]
Abby Wambach
Love it.
- [49:58]
Alex L.
And I learned. And it was like, oh, wow, you haven't been breathing. You have not been breathing. How am I Alive. I have not been breathing and so I was able to figure out how to breathe better and when I was having my anxiety attacks. Because just because you're on medicine and therapy doesn't mean you're not going to be overwhelmed with anxiety at some point. I can go to my breath. The box breath is my absolute favorite breath. Inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for four. You can do it anywhere. On the subway, while you're driving, on a walk, locked in your room so your kids don't bust in on you when you need to recalibrate, you know like truly finding ways to recenter and get back into your body. And that is what I needed to do was get back into my body. So breathing the right way and with intention. Number one, writing. Of course outside of being an author, I also really love being able to talk to myself. And so I like those check ins. I keep a gratitude list simple. One thing a day or night that I'm grateful for and it can be okay. I made it through the day. You know, getting back to basics in life, not necessarily having all these big things to unpack but like what are the basic tiny micro moments of joy that I can explore and then walking. I've been walking for a year, every single day, rain or shine, cold or hot, and I've never missed a day. And that is where I get back to my body. Wow. Movement every day.
- [51:42]
Abby Wambach
Something about that walking and pod squad. Are you hearing this? I only trust healing. That is back to the basics what you're saying. Breath, walking, writing, all things that don't cost any money. There's an entire industry out there that will swear to you that you need all of these things to heal. And really it comes back. I mean the breath, it's like that's God. Breath is God. Like you said, you're inspire. That's those words. S P I R. It's all breath. It's all God, it's all spirit, spirit, holy spirit. It's the thing that we cannot be separated from. The thing that will always be with us unless we cut ourselves off from it is breath. It's what takes us through our entire life. Why is it the walking? Like what is it about walking? Walking helps me so much and I. The more I talk to people who are doing creative grounding work, they always bring up the walking.
- [52:44]
Alex L.
What is it? So I discovered walking through this awesome woman who I'm now dear friends with. Her name is Libby Delana and she wrote the book do walk and she's my absolute Favorite person. We are thick as thieves now. We are family now. I found her in Magnolia Journal two years a year ago and was like, who is this six foot tall, long white haired lady? She's so badass. They had a whole like feature on her. So I read her article, I looked her up and I bought her book immediately. And I went on Instagram, I saw she was following me.
- [53:20]
Abby Wambach
Oh, isn't that the best? I was like, I'm in, I'm in.
- [53:23]
Alex L.
I love her, I love her, I love her. Yes. So I I DM'd her and said, you know, your book is changing me. And I wasn't ready to start walking yet, but I was just like, I'm listening, I hear you. And then I decided after my youngest turned 2, I was like, I need to get back into my body in another way. I had really gotten outside of myself. So I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna try this walking thing. I don't know what this is about, but I'm gonna try this walking thing. And I committed to 30 days. And then I said at the end of the 30 days, if I'm still. And I'm going to go every day. And I have been going every day since. Me and Libby have a podcast called this Morning Walk where we talk about the lessons from walking through the world. She's 60, I'm 33. She's a white lady, I'm a black lady. It's like we're so different, but we are so the same. I go to Massachusetts where she lives with my oldest, and we go for walks on the beach and we stay with Libby and we have tea. And it's like walking has shown me who I am. It has shown me that I don't have to know where I'm going. It has shown me, like Libby says, to put motion to emotion. So when I'm pissed, I go for a walk. When I'm happy, I go for a walk. And it's the promise to myself to move my body every day. And I did it. And I'm gonna keep doing it because I deserve to keep the promises to myself.
- [54:52]
Abby Wambach
Damn Alex. Damn, Alex.
- [54:56]
Amanda Doyle
Al, you talked a little bit, Alex, earlier about self soothing. Can we talk a little bit more about that? Because it's so fascinating to me.
- [55:06]
Alex L.
Well, those three things that we mentioned, you know, breathing, writing and walking have been my self soothing tools. And self soothing for me is like holding myself in the way that I hold other people and in a way that we're not taught to hold ourselves you know, when I'm walking, I'm often thinking like, oh, like I'm rocking myself. I'm literally, oh my gosh, lulling myself.
- [55:33]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, and rocking yourself. We view self soothing as, for some reason it's this thing that is appropriate for the first two years of life and then miraculously, it's not appropriate anymore. As opposed to an absolutely vital tool to have for all of life.
- [55:52]
Abby Wambach
You know, I, Alex, I sucked my thumb until fifth grade and I had a blankie until college. Somebody stole it from me in college. It's a very upsetting story. But I think about when I quit sucking my thumb is when I became bulimic. I'm not saying they're totally tied, but why are some strategies of self soothing acceptable and some aren't? Because the way I feel is like we're all self soothing, but we, we develop these things. Like every time someone's a judgmental asshole, they're self soothing. Like they can't handle the vulnerability of the moment or the jealousy or the whatever assholery is. Self soothing, it's just acceptable or something because it's seen as less vulnerable. I'd rather somebody just stick their thumb in their mouth instead of being an asshole.
- [56:45]
Amanda Doyle
So the next time someone's an asshole to you, just go up to them and put their thumb in their mouth.
- [56:49]
Alex L.
Put their thumb in their mouth.
- [56:50]
Abby Wambach
And how come like things are culturally appropriate self soothing, like it's okay to have sex six glasses of wine a night, but it's not okay to rock yourself?
- [57:00]
Alex L.
I think there are healthy ways to self soothe and unhealthy ways to self soothe. I think that just comes down to it. I think people who struggle with addiction are self soothing in their own way. It's not healthy. How do we shift the unhealthiness into something that's healthy, into something that's supportive, into something that is life giving? Because that's really what self soothing is for me. It replenishes me, you know, it fills me up. It's this nourishing act of self care. And so finding healthy ways to self soothe has been big for me too. Because when I was younger, I didn't have those things. I looked for love in places that there was none. I dated really terrible people because I was self soothing or trying to. Right. I didn't eat. I struggled with an eating disorder because I was, as you said, self soothing. Right. But that wasn't healthy. It wasn't life giving. And so when we think about self soothing, we need to be thinking about filling our cup replenishing. Nourishing. That's the word that really kind of like makes me feel things inside. Like self soothing equals nourishment. How are we nourishing ourselves in a way that is healthy and sustainable?
- [58:20]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, I love that.
- [58:22]
Amanda Doyle
So the question becomes, what are your self soothing strategies?
- [58:29]
Alex L.
Yes.
- [58:29]
Amanda Doyle
And if your answer to that is I don't know or I don't have them, your actual true answer is you are having unhealthy self soothing strategies.
- [58:43]
Abby Wambach
Right. Because I'm just doing them.
- [58:44]
Amanda Doyle
Because if you don't know what they.
- [58:46]
Abby Wambach
Are, then you're the asshole at the meeting.
- [58:49]
Amanda Doyle
No, no, no, no, no. They exist. Everyone has them. It's not a question of do you have them or do you not. It's are you aware of your self soothing strategies?
- [58:58]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [58:59]
Amanda Doyle
And if you're not aware of what they are, you might wanna. Again, Alex L. Says intentional about choosing some that will work for you instead of defaulting to the ones you're no doubt already using. Because I don't know what mine are. So that definitely means it's probably working too much. It's probably being snarky and mean. It's probably, you know. So I know I have them, but I have to like take a hot minute and really think through what they are and think about intentionally replacing some of them so they don't default to the others.
- [59:35]
Alex L.
I actually see this with my 14 year old. So she has anxiety as well. And a part of her anxiety is skin picking and that she doesn't skin pick or self harm to end her life, but she does it because it feels good to her or because she's trying to punish herself for something. Right. And so something that we've been working with her psychiatrist on and therapist on is like redirection of that. Okay, so if you're picking because you're nervous, what can we do instead of picking? Or if you're picking because you are excited, what can we do with our hands instead of that? Right. So it is the redirection, the intentional redirection. So when I see her picking, I'll say, hey, don't pick. I have bandaids. And you want to put a bandaid on because that'll redirect her to. Oh, okay, let me not do that and let me cover. And then we can move on to finding something else. Right. And someone, as someone who. A part of my anxiety is I pull my hair out, which is why I've been keeping my hair short lately. I have, it's called trick. And I literally will pull my Hair out. And so what I do when I get highly anxious and I feel myself tooling with my hair, I start snapping. So there's another self soothing thing. Like, oh, I can't pick and snap at the same time. It's impossible. Right. So like even if even starting small, I'm mentioning those things because our kids deal with it, we deal with it. Starting small. Maybe it's not going for a walk every day, but maybe it's snapping. Maybe it's not, you know, writing in your gratitude journal as self soothing tool, perhaps it's going to make a cup of tea with intention. Bringing your mind back to the moment. And slowing down is really what self soothing is. That's the nourishing act, the slowing down and the redirection.
- [61:32]
Abby Wambach
I love that. And crying.
- [61:35]
Alex L.
Oh, and crying.
- [61:36]
Abby Wambach
People think, yes, we have created this idea that crying is like failing. We say to people, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. It's so weird. It's like saying, don't pee, don't pee. That is an actual biological healing. It's a baptism. It's a getting it all out, starting over, starting fresh. We should say cry, cry, cry. You know, if that's, that's part of healing, it's not the absence of healing.
- [62:04]
Alex L.
My mom's favorite phrase growing up is tears don't fix anything or crying doesn't solve problems. And Charlie, who is my oldest daughter, is a crier. And something that I have committed to not doing is telling her to stop crying.
- [62:26]
Glennon Doyle
Yep.
- [62:28]
Alex L.
I will say it's okay for you to cry. If you want to excuse yourself, go ahead, get yourself together and you can rejoin us when you're ready to talk. Something that I will say is I can't understand you when you're crying. And so I love you. Go ahead and get yourself together. And it's no rush. But I'm never going to tell her, stop crying. Tears don't solve anything because for her, crying is a self soothing mechanism. Right. And I didn't cry for a long or I would cry in private because I didn't want my mom to see me. And something that I do too as a parent is I cry in front of my kids. I don't hide my tears from my kids. And my mom never did that. Like she was like not gonna cry in front of you. She cries now, which is really interesting to see her soften in that way. But it's so. Crying is so, so, so important. And even for my littles, you can cry. Go ahead and cry. You wanna go sit on the steps and cry? You can cry. Can I give you a hug? Sometimes they're like, don't touch me. Okay. I love you. I don't have to hug you. I'm here when you're ready. And so inviting people to feel safe enough to shed their tears is such a sacred act. It's wild how sacred that is.
- [63:51]
Abby Wambach
It's not the thing we get through to get to the thing. It's not like, oh, we just have to sit through the crying so we can get to the words that we're gonna say to each other. We always think we have put so much faith in words. But the actual act of crying and sitting with someone who's crying and not being so uncomfortable with our own stuff that we rush them through the crying, that's not what we suffer through to get to the healing. That is the healing.
- [64:17]
Alex L.
That is the healing.
- [64:19]
Abby Wambach
Just the tears.
- [64:20]
Amanda Doyle
Alex, you say about crying, give it life and let it go. So is the crying itself giving life to whatever it is you're healing or mourning?
- [64:33]
Alex L.
It's both. Water is life giving. Our tears are life giving. And they also is a release. Right. And I think that that's really important for us to realize. Like, crying doesn't make us weak. It makes us really strong and vulnerable and really amazing. And I have a friend who. She lost her dad and her sister within the same year. And we were having a conversation on FaceTime, and when we were talking on FaceTime, she started crying. And she was talking and crying, and I just was holding space and listening. And at the end, she goes, thank you for not telling me not to cry. And that's a part of, like, our humanity wants to be seen in our most vulnerable states. And that's really important to give ourselves the permission to release, to receive, and also to like, to give our feelings life. If that comes in the form of tears, that comes in the form of tears. It doesn't. It's not wrong.
- [65:35]
Glennon Doyle
It's like laughter.
- [65:37]
Abby Wambach
Exactly.
- [65:38]
Glennon Doyle
It's like laughter.
- [65:39]
Abby Wambach
Don't laugh. Don't laugh.
- [65:40]
Glennon Doyle
It's the same, just the body's natural response to just emotions, the being overcome. It's like laughter. I don't understand why people have such a weird.
- [65:48]
Abby Wambach
Because it's a loss of control. And we don't like people to lose control around us.
- [65:52]
Amanda Doyle
Alex, all of your work is about intergenerational healing, communal healing. And you are raising three black girls in this world, in this country. What do you want most for them to be able to release and what do you want most for them to be able to receive?
- [66:18]
Alex L.
Wow. I want my girls to release the idea that they need to be validated by outside forces, including me and my husband, to receive their power.
- [66:45]
Abby Wambach
Connected. Those two directly connected. You're really an example. You're amazing is your vulnerability and you're doing. You're not just a teacher, you're a student. And that's what we trust.
- [66:59]
Alex L.
Thank you.
- [67:00]
Abby Wambach
I just keep thinking as we end that so much of what you've described as healing is releasing. I think we think of healing as something that has to come in and fix us on the inside. And all this stuff has to happen on the inside for us to change. But actually everything you're talking about, the writing, the breathing, the walking, the crying, it's all release. It's just different ways of not holding it all in. Not holding our breath, not hiding. So today let's just think of what we need to release and. Or not even what maybe we don't even know. But just how we're releasing today, how we're exhaling, maybe that's how we heal. Alex L. Thank you for who you are in the world. Your new book, How We Heal, is just an act of service to all of us. It is community care. So thank you and to the POD Squad, just real quick, heal yourself this week and we'll see you next time. No, I think it's like, it's easy peasy.
- [68:06]
Glennon Doyle
I think it's like, go for a.
- [68:07]
Abby Wambach
Walk or take a breath or cry.
- [68:10]
Amanda Doyle
Do one thing intentionally.
- [68:13]
Abby Wambach
There you go.
- [68:13]
Amanda Doyle
Just pick one thing to do with intention today and you will have started your healing.
- [68:19]
Alex L.
That's right.
- [68:20]
Abby Wambach
See you next time.
- [68:22]
Alex L.
Bye Bye.
- [68:28]
Abby Wambach
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the Weekend Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is creating and hosted by Glennon Doyle Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dena Kleiner and Bill Schultz.