← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:01]
Glennon Doyle
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- [02:18]
Abby Wambach
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things because Pod Squad, you are so lucky. We are back with Tia Levings and if you haven't listened to our previous conversation, go back and do that. In that conversation we talked about the high control religious group that Tia became a part of. What it did to her and her family and her heart and her mind and her body and how she got free from it and how all of that is a map sort of for how we can navigate this moment in this country. So let us begin with, I mean Tia, this quote from your book. You said this you said today it hit me when he hit me. Blood shaking in my brain. Maybe there wasn't a savior coming. Maybe it was up to me to save me. Can you start for us with the night? What was the moment? How did we decide enough was enough and what happened next?
- [03:27]
Tia Levings
Yeah, my final escape was a making of about seven years of trickle and then a final snap. And I think that it's. I honor those seven years. There's a lot of pushback against women when they're in violence of why didn't you just get out? I really hope my story paints a very vivid picture of why women don't just get out. And also I'll just tack on here some top reminders of. Go Google how recently women have had any kind of rights to no fault divorce, which is on the line right now. Getting your own finances, your own credit card. There's a lot of reasons, especially societally, why women don't just get out. And so it took me about seven years to get my body free. My mind was a process. If we want to talk about that specific night, what happened is my children were in total and complete jeopardy. I had read a story in People magazine about a murder suicide, and I knew that we would be the next one. I could see our faces on the COVID of People magazine as this tragic mountain couple. And then that night happened. I had said I was going to leave. He had shown all the signs that they tell you to look for in extreme violent situations. And there's some animal cruelty and animal death in my story. There's the complete breakdown of somebody that's having a psychotic break that was definitely happening, coupled with this environment when he needed external structures. And we had been excommunicated. I was excommunicated from our church, which is a spanking cult, for writing in my own name. I refused to put my writing online in my husband's name, and they excommunicated me for it. And without that church.
- [05:03]
Abby Wambach
Wait, hold on a second. Hold on a second. They wanted you. You okay? Wait a second.
- [05:08]
Tia Levings
Yeah. We skipped the steps.
- [05:10]
Abby Wambach
Okay. Before this night. The freedom is bubbling.
- [05:15]
Tia Levings
Yes.
- [05:16]
Abby Wambach
Am I right? The freedom.
- [05:17]
Amanda Doyle
Well, it starts with Clara. The seven year mark starts with Clara, right?
- [05:21]
Tia Levings
It does.
- [05:22]
Amanda Doyle
Is it okay to start with Clara?
- [05:24]
Tia Levings
It absolutely is. My crack started with grief. Grief is what cracked me open. And I talk about Clara all the time. She's the only one of my children whose name I didn't change. She liberated my heart. She broke me open. I had never lost anyone before I lost my daughter. She died in 1999. And she created a pure heart in me. She broke me open. She made this person I could not contain. I could not Put myself back into this TIA shaped box that I had tried so hard to craft so that they would find acceptable. I started to question literally everything. It's important that I'd spent a couple months in the hospital around women who'd gone to school, became doctors, had careers, had options, parents from all kinds of walks of life. I had this huge step out of my worldview through Clara's life and during her death, after her death, I could not pretend that she did not exist. Which is something they do in quiverful environments. You just move on to the next baby. You're sad for a little while, you're allowed to be sad, but then you're supposed to get over it and give God the glory and move on. And I couldn't do it. So it really unleashed this whole streak in me to honor her. And in so honoring her life, I had to become the kind of mother who I wanted her to have. And so that meant growth areas that just wouldn't have been there otherwise. It's not that my older children couldn't have brought them about. It's that the complete and total loss of her life and the. Everything that said about God, everything they were telling me about God, it just. The whole universe broke and split into a million stars. It was just. There was no way to put it back into the box. And so seven years passed because I tried to be the best Christian wife and mother I really could. I brought my whole self as much as I could back then, you know, to this game. And it got worse. Like the situation, the high control continued on its trajectory regardless of how I behaved. I wasn't a key player as much as I thought I was. It was going to do what it was always going to do.
- [07:19]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [07:20]
Tia Levings
And it consumes women. You see this over and over again when you look at these high control systems and these families. The women have a lifespan, they have a purpose, and then they phase out of it. I think it's fascinating that Vance likes to talk about the role of older women because if you're perimenopausal right now and you are a Gen Xer, you are finding a level of freedom and expression that like, we give zero fucks, you know, that's the thing. This is this time and this is exactly the moment where the patriarchy would say, get back in the box. You're going to be a grandma and that's all you're going to be. There is so much more to me than just grandparenting. I have three beautiful grandchildren and I Love them, but they've got other stuff to do too, and they've got a life to live. So, you know, it's this. It's this YouTube utility of women that consumes. So when I was in my grief with Clara, I got online and the Internet was brand new. And I ended up on this Christian forum where women were talking about what they were reading. It's pretty. Pretty benign as far as that's concerned. But in my circles, we weren't allowed to go to the library at this time, and we weren't allowed to read outside of our approved list. So being on a forum was already dangerous. The Internet was brand new. Nobody knew how to manage it. You know, it was this whole thing. And so I fell in through a literal trap door. These women had a forum called the Trapdoor Society, and I had a secret place to go where I could read books, talk about ideas. It started with, like, how to be a different Christian. Like, it wasn't real far out of our worldview. It was just a little bit different than fundamentalism. Just this little, tiny. And I would feel rewarded with air, breath, and light. It would be like I could be recharged from my one hour talking about a thought that I had in my head and writing it out. Like that just gave me so much food. And I became kind of evidence based at that point. That was about 2002, 3. And I started realizing what, like, kind of delineating, putting into piles what gave me life and what didn't and starting to learn how to say, and these are the. My baby boundaries, my little tiny baby boundaries of what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And it wasn't more complicated than that. I knew what hurt. And increasingly I was starting to pay attention, that everything in the hurt pile was religious, was my marriage, was my husband, was my church. And I didn't like going to those places. And I knew I didn't have the stamina to hold it up. So then I would have to try and get through with a little time in my other half, a little time online. And I started a blog called Living Deliberately when we moved to Tennessee. And blogging was brand new and I was really good at it, and boom, it exploded and it became this thing. And then the elders had a problem with that because.
- [09:55]
Abby Wambach
Oh, yeah, they did. I went through this. I went through this, Tia.
- [10:00]
Tia Levings
Yes, I know you did.
- [10:01]
Abby Wambach
Tell us what the elders said. Tell us what the elder said.
- [10:04]
Tia Levings
Oh, my goodness. Now, I think it's ironic that I was writing about my life as a Trad wife. I was actually writing in support of their system. I was criticizing other books. Like, Oprah had an author, and I criticized that book because she wasn't patriarchal enough. I mean, I was being their voice, but they were too stupid to know it.
- [10:24]
Glennon Doyle
Can you also explain what a trad wife means?
- [10:27]
Tia Levings
Yes. A trad wife is just short for traditional. So we called it back then traditional wife and mother. That was like the little da da da, da da da. Traditional wife and mother. Now they just call it trad. Hashtag tradwife. Hashtag tradwife life. It's the same thing. If I had had social media, you would have seen pictures of my bread as it was living deliberately, had pictures of my cloth diapers and my dried beans and my chickens and my bare feet and my babies. And, you know, it was the exact same thing. We just didn't have the technology for it yet. So it's really funny to me when these young women are like, this is the new old way. And I'm like, you just didn't go anywhere. You just doing the same things. Because it's the same things. They have. No, that verse that says, there's nothing new under the sun. Yeah. There's no new ideas here. This is not progress. And so I was writing and I was doing these things that were giving me strength and freedom, and I was widening my circle. I had clients at this point. I had business people asking me, how are you doing this? How are you using blogging? And it was giving me an income, and I was pocketing my private money. So that's an important part of my escape aspect. I was gaining confidence. This is like. It's really kind of redemptive that I'm even having this conversation with you today. And then 2005, 6, and 7, I would not have been able to even order a pizza. My social anxiety was so high and my stuttering was so bad, there's no way I would have thought that I could do this. Last week, I just talked for two hours at a public event with a podium and a microphone. I'm like, that is not who that girl was. She has grown. She has grown. But in 2005 and 6, I was living in hell. I was alone in an isolated mountain house in the bottom of a valley being watched 24, 7. My mileage was watched. My finances were watched. I was being spanked. If I stepped out of line, I was in a church where other women were being spanked. We were not allowed to speak to each other because women talking is very Dangerous to patriarchy.
- [12:22]
Abby Wambach
Yes, it is.
- [12:23]
Tia Levings
And they couldn't do anything about this blog because it was public. If I disappeared, people would know. And here comes another big major theme in my life is stay where they can see you. Be public. Get your face out there. People will wonder if you disappear. That's safety for you, is visibility. And that's how I learned it was during that time.
- [12:44]
Amanda Doyle
At what point do you get excommunicated? Like, where does it go from? They can't do anything out of the blog because it's out there, and you're being a soldier for them anyway. But you still manage to get yourself excommunicated.
- [12:57]
Tia Levings
March 2007, I was formally excommunicated from Covenant Reformed Evangelical Church because they wanted.
- [13:03]
Amanda Doyle
It to say by your husband.
- [13:05]
Tia Levings
They wanted me first to put it in his name, second to stop writing. And third, when I blogged about the Mother Mary and said that men needed women because Jesus had come to the earth through a woman's body, they lost their shit. That was the final straw.
- [13:20]
Amanda Doyle
That was a bridge too far to you.
- [13:22]
Tia Levings
Apostasy. Men do not need women. Not really. Right.
- [13:26]
Glennon Doyle
Okay, so then what happens? You get excommunicated and your husband's pissed, I assume?
- [13:31]
Tia Levings
No.
- [13:32]
Abby Wambach
And how does excommunication work? Like, I've been excommunicated from a lot of churches, but I didn't go to them. I kept getting these, like, things that would happen online that would be like, glennon Doyle excommunicated from whatever, and I'd be like. But I don't. I felt like that Seinfeld episode where I'm like, you can't fire me. I don't even work here. Right, but you did work there. So how does one receive the news? Is it like being served with papers or.
- [13:55]
Tia Levings
I still have them. They're behind me in an envelope. Yeah. So when you join a covenantal church, you sign a contract, you sign a covenant of your membership, and you put yourself.
- [14:04]
Amanda Doyle
That's the covenant part of a covenant church. I never thought about that once in my life.
- [14:09]
Tia Levings
It's a real thing. And you sign that, you will obey that the church elders are your authority. And men do not like to actually be under another man's authority. So the men infight a lot, and they go start their own churches. And so when you see all these churches pop up, it's usually because the men weren't getting along, because no one likes to be told what to do. But anyway, you join this Covenant Church and you sign this covenant, and so you're adhering to a certain standard. And that means that I agreed that if I stepped out of line, my church could correct me. And so that's what happened. We had a series of three discipline meetings. My husband was told to get me under control and take me in hand, but he was upset with them. He liked my blog. He liked that it was bringing in some money, and he was ready to stick it to them. And so we kind of got excommunicated. Kind of unified for the first time in our whole marriage. We were kind of like, yeah, we don't want to go there anyway, so we don't care. So we were excommunicated and formally shunned, which meant everybody in our community would not speak to us or our children. That part was hard to explain to the kids, and it was. It was hard to deal with. But my skill of having another foot in another world helped because I did have friendships that were outside of that church that I had honed through our homeschool co op. So I just kind of transitioned my children over to people who would be friendly, and that part went fine. And I thought that things would be pretty okay because we were kind of on the same page. If ever there was a point in our marriage where it was going to succeed, that was going to be the moment. But he couldn't mentally cope without having rules, that much freedom. Being in charge of himself completely, utterly broke him. Like, total psychotic snap, total loss into addiction. And so we escaped Halloween. So from March until Halloween was, I don't know, a constant break, was just the darkest point of my entire life.
- [15:57]
Amanda Doyle
Tia, that night, we wouldn't be having this conversation if you didn't listen to yourself in that one particular moment. Can you just take us? Because I think it's important for people to hear. Like, when that voice comes to you. Can you just say that for people? Yeah, so that they know.
- [16:16]
Tia Levings
My kids wanted to trick or treat that year, and because we weren't in this church anymore, they were gonna finally get to do it in this small town. And so we went trick or treating. They had these adorable little costumes. George Washington and Pippi Longstocking. And they were so cute, all four of them. And we got through it with our friends. And I had decided with a priest, I was going to leave the next day while he was at work. We would be going November 1st. And he got wind. I think either got wind or he sensed it. Something happened, and he snapped. When we got home that night, I got the kids bathed and put into bed, and then he broke into One of his tirades, which didn't usually last longer than about a half an hour, but for some reason, this one lasted about four hours. And he involved him ranting, walking through the house, screaming, waving firewood, threatening to kill me, threatening to kill the kids. And I just kind of kept doing the same things in the same order. I didn't speak. I was very vigilant about weapons. I was trying to, like, not set him off and just kind of let him do his thing. But I knew, like, if you've seen there's a clip of it in Shiny Happy People, and they filmed it so accurately. The stove is down here in the living room, and then there's the stairwell. And I had hair down to my waist that makes a convenient rope. And I was afraid to go up the stairs, and I was afraid. I was just afraid, you know, and the children were sleeping, and he's doing his thing, and I'm cleaning, and then we go upstairs and I'm putting on my boots, and he's screaming at me about my boots. Or I just. I think I just moved them from one side to the other side. And he's going off about how successful I'm going to be. And he's using this very final language of he knows I'm going to get out of here and I'm going to do well. And he's like, blessing me in his anger. It's very strange. But I knew he's thinking final thoughts, and I'm in a lot of danger right here. And we're about to die. And I was, like, kind of getting ready for that. I used to run drills like, what order will I get the kids out of the house? And kind of always used to do that. And so I was trying to kind of, like, accept that we're about to die. And instead, he put the stick down and he walked out of the house. He goes, I'm out of here. He had Never once in 14 years left in the middle of a fight. It's not something he ever did. And all I heard was, run, just run. Just run. Get the kids, run. So I grabbed the day's laundry, the children out of their beds, my computer, and we drove out of town. And on the way back, like, it's a little tiny town with one stoplight on the. We passed him, and he was deranged, driving deranged. But he'd gone back to his office to get his gun. So we would not be here. I would be dead. That is what would have happened. And I went to My priest's house. And he sheltered me.
- [18:54]
Abby Wambach
And then what happened next? How did you, after that moment of courage and when you did save yourself instead of waiting for God? Yeah, you just found the God in you. You found the God in you and listened to it. How does one begin to recover? I was doing this event recently and there was this woman who was speaking before me and she had grown up in a similar situation to what you're describing. And she was there because she had had an abortion several years before that had saved her life. And so she was now an activist and knew with every cell in her mind and her body that she was there for freedom and to save women's lives. And she was shaking like a leaf before she went on stage because she said, it doesn't matter how much distance I get, every time I'm about to open my mouth, I still feel like all I do is I hear my parents voices, I hear the religious leaders voices, and I feel like a bad person. Even though she knows. So like, how does one begin. You said your body is now free.
- [20:05]
Tia Levings
Yeah.
- [20:06]
Abby Wambach
How does one begin to free one's mind?
- [20:08]
Tia Levings
I really feel for her because I know there's a modality that will help. There's several. So one of the things that I count as such a humongous gift is that when I left in 2007, the language of recovery was evolving. We didn't have words like religious trauma and deconstruction and ex evangelical. We didn't know trauma very well. There was like two trauma responses. People talked about was fight or flight. It was still kind of taboo to say the word anxiety. We just didn't have much language in 2007. So in the scope of my recovery, this has grown. And what I did, what I can congratulate myself for and be proud of myself for, is that I promised I'd show up. Whatever it was, I would show up. Whatever they said would help, I would try it. I found it completely intolerable that this was going to be my story. This is all that was going to happen to me in my life, was going to be this sad thing. And that's all I was. And so the way I say it now is that trauma took my past. It's not going to get my present and future too. My present and my future fall under the line of things I can control, I can change my future. I have that ability. And I'm a manifester, I'm a visionary, I'm high capacity, I have a lot of capacity to change my future. And I knew that about myself. I knew that I had done this thing and I knew better not fuck with me because I'm going to stand up for my kids. I'm going to stand up for what's important to me. I'm a little hypersensitive baby. You know about other things. But there are things I have my ridge about and I wanted it to be for healing. And so I showed up for everything that they said to do. I got very, very sick. In the years after all that body keeps the score stuff is absolutely true. I thought that I was going to be blind and in a wheelchair for years. I couldn't see. I lost all my vision and could only see white. Everything white was pink for a long time. I had week long migraines. Wow. A lot of physical symptoms manifested but trauma therapy also like ramped up. And so I've done EMDR and brain spotting and journaling and somatic therapy, nervous system regulation, all of these things. A medication, all of these things are available to me now and I use them so I don't shake as a leaf and re traumatize myself when I'm telling my story anymore because I've done all of that work in order to integrate it and metabolize it. My story is fully metabolized when I tell you that story of that night. I am also now seeing because of my EMDR experience, I am seeing a calm, collected mother who carried herself for four hours under a death threat while her children slept.
- [22:33]
Amanda Doyle
That's damn right. Oh my God. Yes. Yes.
- [22:39]
Abby Wambach
Wow.
- [22:40]
Tia Levings
It's strength. It's redemption. That's my redemption. That's me saying no, you can't have the rest of me.
- [22:59]
Amanda Doyle
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- [24:08]
Glennon Doyle
The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out. Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondry plus and the OneDry app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
- [25:12]
Abby Wambach
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- [26:49]
Tia Levings
It'S the accumulation of other women. So when I think of this strength, I'm hearing Liz Gilbert say, stubborn gladness. I'm hearing Glennon Doyle talk about a cheetah. Abby talks about a wolf pack. I mean, you guys got curiosity. You've got drive. And the more we tell our stories, those themes come out. And I don't feel so alone in those moments. I feel like, okay, if we're gonna all accept the language of recovery, then let's do it. This is recovery. This is grace and space. I'm not that powerful on my own. One of my therapists told me early on when I was convinced I was the problem, it was all my fault. She's like, you're not that powerful. It can't possibly be your fault. You're not that strong. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can't wreck the univers. I'm just Tia. That's all I am is just Tia. And who Tia is is a big, warm hearted, strong, capable person in some ways. And then in other ways, like, don't ask me to organize anything. Don't ask me to math. My poor partner, he's always like, God bless you because I'm neurodiverse. And please close the cabinet doors. Those. I get it.
- [27:57]
Abby Wambach
Oh, I agreed with you with everything until now. Tia, we've had a break.
- [28:01]
Tia Levings
I know, I know. But I understand why you leave them open, girl. So it's that humanity. I get to show up here and be like, I have one wild and precious life. It isn't going to be perfect. And there's no expectation for it to be. All I have to do is be kind. And what that looks like is sometimes pretty tough. You know, you got to have your armor on. But I'm a cancer. I got that soft underbelly thing. So I lean into my softness, my fourness. I'm enneagram4infj on the Myers Briggs, and I'm on a path to myself. And she's always growing. So I give that to myself because other women have given that to themselves. I have role models, and I have support. And there's a whole tribe out here, and I think that's one of my, like, thumbs to the patriarchy, is that we are not alone. I felt so miserably alone in that house, staring at the gray rain, wondering, you know, where are even the other women of the patriarchy? Alone in their homes, feeling isolated, loneliness, Is like cancer in our society. And health is one of the ways we combat it is coming together. So where does it come from? I mean, like I said, I was born with a tooth. I came here screaming. It is just who I am.
- [29:17]
Glennon Doyle
I have a question. A little bit of my story. People know a little bit about this, but I grew up Catholic. And when I was quite young, I think I realized I was a little different. I don't know what the difference was yet. I couldn't, like, verbalize it or even consciously understand gayness or queerness. But what I knew is that what I was becoming was not going to be accepted. It was going to be seen as an abomination. I was literally going to go to hell via the words out of my mother's mouth. And I struggle with the facts that I think her intentions of being in the church were true and beautiful, Really. I do think that she fell in the lines of a little bit more of, like, the conservative version of Catholicism. She wanted 12 kids. You know, maybe she wasn't in this, like, the more conservative sect of Christianity that you found yourself in. One thing that I struggle with, and I'm curious, if you can help me, is this idea of, you know, when I was 16, 17 years old, when I was really coming to terms with this sexuality thing, I just decided, okay, if hell is where I'm headed, then I will accept that I still have to maintain myself, my inner self. However, some of the things that happened throughout my life, I very quickly can draw the line of bad things. When bad things happen, it's because I'm gay. And I think a lot of people in my position might have a similar thing. And I wonder if that's something that you carry with you or if you have been able to unlearn or unwind from that attachment that I still currently kind of hold onto in some way.
- [31:10]
Tia Levings
I think that one of the things you said about your mom is important to emphasize that people are attracted to these systems because they want good things. They want structure and order. They want eternal security. They are scaring their children because they want ultimately to get them to a good place. And they've been told, just scare them for this little bit here, and then it'll be okay in the end. And those of us who find that here and now, we don't want to spend our here and now in eternal suffering. Like, I got to a place where I was like, okay, if you say hell, then it's how you say hell, because I can't fight you anymore. I cannot Keep this up and I'm living hell. This feels like hell and I can't take it anymore. I think what happens in the self harm moments is that attachment. And so the one of the biggest modalities I've spent, I still spend a lot of time on and I honor her today actually is inner child work. And going back to my little tiny parts part work is huge in my. I combine it with somatic. And so I have all these little parts and you have a part that internalized that anything that was bad is evidence that you're bad. That is evidence that you're hell bound. And it doesn't matter how much you cognitively deconstruct that hell isn't a real literal place and heaven isn't even a real literal place. And who needs either one of them when we create them here on earth? Like that's your brain can believe that all day long. But if your little child inside of yourself is saying, well no, I was born bad, which is Catholic doctrine 101, you were born bad in original sin. And here's the manifestation of it. They need just love, just so much love and advocacy. No one advocated for you and you had to navigate that as someone so young, which wasn't a fair ask like and shame on all the adults in the world that would put that on a child's shoulders. Because one of the places where I'm really drumming right now is the damage at indoctrination does to a child's self development. I don't know if you are familiar, but every once in a while I'll meet someone who has no religious upbringing at all and they had child development. They knew who they were at like 5, 6 years old. And they don't carry any like existential fear that they're gonna like nail Jesus to the cross with their sins or go to hell. And I was just like, you're amazing. I would love to like be you. But that's what indoctrination does. It interferes with our sense of self is it's not natural for a child to self harm. Children are naturally open hearted and explore and if they feel secure then they'll widen their circles, not narrow down in their circles. So when you see someone shutting down their circles, that's a flag that something's happened. So I would just go to 16 year old Abby and I'd spend a lot of time with her and whatever that looked like whatever she needed in that moment, which was probably a mom that said, you're wonderful, you're just the way you are. And that was probably more than your mom, your actual mom could do. But that doesn't change that that's what you needed in that moment.
- [34:04]
Abby Wambach
You know, it's interesting because I think that people will probably listen to the last episode and hear us talk about the baby, the blanket training where a baby is on a blanket and the way that you discipline them is you hit them if they're gonna leave the blanket. And that trains them to not leave the blanket. And there are probably so many of us who listen to that story and think, how could anyone do that? How could you do that? But that is what we do to children emotionally and spiritually when we sit them down in a pew and we allow them to hear that they are bad and that if they don't somehow fix that badness, that they are going to go to a place where fire will burn them forever. Like, I just want everybody who's listening to this, who thinks that it is harmless to take children to a place where yes, they might have finger painting and yes, they might have cookies and coffee and there might be a lot of love there. But if that message is there, teaching children that they will go to hell if they don't somehow figure it out to subjugate themselves enough is blanket training. Yes, it is abuse. And it is why so many of us are so confused and scared. Even when we start to intellectually know better, our bodies and our hearts don't know better. Why aren't we talking about that more? Why are so many well meaning people still allowing that messaging into their babies minds and hearts?
- [35:43]
Tia Levings
When you share that story, I feel it in the back of my legs because I remember what it was like to be a toddler. A very skinny, little tiny, frail toddler sitting on a wooden pew with a flannel graph in front of me of flames and a teacher showing me here's a flame, here's a person drowning in the flame. You did this to Jesus on the cross. Like it's a very internalized little toddler memory that I carry. And it as a sensitive person, I didn't want to know that I hurt Jesus. Jesus is perfect and good and I'm the person that hurt him that, you know, I have carried that forever. Why I think people still do it is because they haven't healed. They haven't healed that or addressed it or even articulated it. It isn't okay to talk about yet, you know, very openly. It sounds a little woo when you start getting into parts work because there's still like this Baggage that you're like talking about split personalities or something. So just having the permission and the space to do that. But then there's all this external pressure to comply. And I think parents, you can relate. If you've had the noisy child in a crowded space and everyone wants you to keep it quiet, you can relate to the burning shame on your face and the anxiety and the sweat that you're feeling in order to get your kid outside because it's being too loud. And then moms lose their cool and then they reach out and they hit their child. That's just a desperate non religious example of why it continues happening because it takes so much intentionality. I went on this eat, Pray, love like self tour to Europe after my second divorce and I was on the train platform in Zurich and there was a toddler that was having a tantrum on the train platform because clearly they had been traveling and they did not want to go another step. And train stations, you know, are like little ant hills and little tiny person, big huge train station. And that mother sat down on the ground in the middle of the train station and just met eye contact with their little toddler and talked them through. And I stand there and I cried and I just watched. And I was probably that weird stranger watching this mother. But I have not seen that in Americans culture. I have not seen a mother be willing to sit on a dirty train platform and help her child feel less overwhelmed without an air of discipline anywhere in that. Like that baby just had space to feel overwhelmed for a second in an actually overwhelming experience. And the mother was able to meet it. And it just, it has stuck with me so much because if we can give that to individuals like we are grown ass adults with toddlers inside of us and if we can look at one another and say, I get it, you're scared, what can I do to help you feel safe right now? That moment sets you up to not reach out and hit your child later. That is the breaking the cycle is allowing another human being to feel seen and safe and comforted and not ashamed of the feelings. We are breaking massive generational cycles here. The boomers are still alive and they just, they just ingrained all their values into our Gen Xers and that's a whole nother show. But those cycles have to be broken constantly. We cannot lose our vigilance right now.
- [38:41]
Abby Wambach
Because is that the heart of it? Like the reason why that moved you so much to see the woman sitting with her messy, loud, wild toddler. Is that the root of all of this? Fundamentalism is like fear of our wild, messy, beautiful human selves in existence. It's just, it's so uncertain. The world is so uncertain, life is so uncertain, everything is so complicated. I am so cult susceptible because. Well for one reason I think I was taught not to trust myself very young because of mental illness. I was taught you just don't, you're a mess and like you need an outer structure.
- [39:24]
Tia Levings
Right, right.
- [39:25]
Abby Wambach
But there's also this kind of. Sometimes I think that it's like the most precious seekers that are so big hearted and so full of curiosity that actually end up in these things because of that seeking. Like what, what's your take on that? Like what? What's at the root of it? Because my sister and I are always saying it's like the question is always right but fundamentalism is just the wrong answer. It's like the trad wife thing. Like they whispered to you women, life is too hard. You can't do it all. You can't, you can't do this work life and this home life and this. It's too hard. And we're like correct, it is too hard. So the question is right, right. It's just the answer they give you, the answer is never. So the other half of the population is going to step up. So your husbands are going to help you. So you're going to share the mental load. So we're going to change the law so that you have agency. So no, no, no. The answer is come back under our wing and we'll control you.
- [40:40]
Tia Levings
Right. I think that permission to ask questions and be curious is the most radically unfundamentalist thing we can do. However, it is also the same vehicle that they'll use in order to ensnare us. So we have to be full of ourselves, which is, I know, like that just that saying it is triggery. But you do have to know who you are and be confident in yourself. And this is what I pick up on the people who haven't had any religious baggage is they carry this self assurance to have a filter that says this is for me or this is not for me. That's not good or bad, it's for me or not for me. Somebody else might find that beneficial but that is not for me. Why is that not for me? Because I can't be true to myself and do that. I wasn't taught about self betrayal or anything like that. We are supposed to be curious, we are supposed to explore but then be okay with, I don't know, be okay with uncertainty. Be okay with an investigative process. Be okay looking at the evidence and the testimony that you have available for what they're suggesting we have, that it's 2024. We know what it's like to be a puritan. We know what it's like to be a boomer. We know what the 1950s were like. We do not have to romanticize or wonder. We can say, oh no, here's what it's actually like. Is this what we want to choose again? We can make an informed choice. So asking the question and then following through that way in a healthy way I think is like cult insurance. Another thing that I do for cult insurance is I resist binaries. So one of the best the question I get more than any other question in the world is, are you still a Christian? And I say, okay, I'm going to tell you I'm spiritually private and here's why. And it's the answer that I give to that question that is then like, oh, here's the lesson. Here's the lesson that I learned in my life. I love binaries and I love people pleasing. And if someone asks me if I'm still a Christian, my brain's already sussing out, do they want to hear me say I'm a Christian? They would like me better if I say I'm a Christian. Or do they want to hear me say I'm an agnostic or an atheist? I can't go there. That's dangerous territory for tia. So I have to say no. I'm guarding my fluidity and my privacy and that spirituality is something deep and intuitive and changes. And I'm going to say that it's private. I was also supposed to have that as a five year old and no one gave it to me. So this is a present to my 5 year old who says, you know what? You don't even know who you are yet. You do not have to make an eternal decision at four and a half and then stick with it for the rest of your life. So we are not going to do that. And then also I just can't put myself in a box. I can't. I can never again assign a name to my belief system and put myself and say, here's where I am. No, you don't get to label me with jack shit because I will go hog on that. That's who I will become and I can't do that. I know the cost of that too viscerally and so I just won't do it. So yeah, I think curiosity is wonderful. And both. And all the other stuff that comes with it.
- [43:25]
Abby Wambach
I love that. That works for sexuality. It works for all of it.
- [43:28]
Amanda Doyle
Everything.
- [43:29]
Abby Wambach
It's private. It's private. And that doesn't mean you're ashamed of it. That means there are no words. How could there possibly be words for faith, for sexuality, multifaceted people.
- [43:40]
Tia Levings
We are so dynamic. Why do we have to be defined by any one thing at any one point in our life? And that's who we are forever. Especially if you're a little child and you aren't even fully formed.
- [44:01]
Amanda Doyle
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- [45:06]
Abby Wambach
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- [46:16]
Amanda Doyle
Now that we're a couple hours into our fundamentalism conversation, could we talk about what fundamentalism is?
- [46:23]
Tia Levings
Oh, yes, girl.
- [46:24]
Amanda Doyle
If it's like, what is at the root of it? At the root of it is this unacceptable reality that there is no quick answer to our lack of safety and lack of chaos. Yes, that is unacceptable. So fundamentalism exists to help us not live in that reality. Can you just blanket what is your definition of fundamentalism?
- [46:48]
Tia Levings
Yeah, what I always say is there's no solve for the human experience. We are going to feel pain, we are going to feel a whole range of emotions. And I need to caveat. I'm not an academic. I haven't even been to college. So I'm not going to give you the academic answer for fundamentalism. I'm going to give you the TIA answer, which is fundamentalism is any kind of ideal that's attached. It's got a promise, a formula, a step by step formula. And if you follow this step by step formula, then you will achieve this ideal. And ideological purity is the highest pursuit. It doesn't matter. Humans do not come first. People needs do not come first. The ideological purity is the whole goal. So I used to just sum it all up and say it's ideas over people. And I put people over ideas. There is no ideology that I will sacrifice my humanity to serve ever again. And so that's my filter. Like it's real quick, who's served, who's. Who is served here. And if it's not a human being and they're foibles, then it's not for me.
- [47:42]
Amanda Doyle
And so if the people who are sitting there are people who are. So you say that these people who are fundamentalists are not evil, they are not crazy, they do not want something different than the rest of us.
- [47:56]
Tia Levings
Right.
- [47:56]
Amanda Doyle
They're just like you and me. And they want comforting answers, reassuring binaries. They want organization in times of chaos.
- [48:04]
Tia Levings
Yes.
- [48:04]
Amanda Doyle
So I think in some ways that answers Glenn. And what you say is, what the fuck are we still doing in those pews? Like there is a yes, that's not good. But what alternative do we have? We need some away out of this chaos. We need some answers to this mess that we're in. And we can only get them here. So we're just gonna have to kind of cherry pick what we like or not. And this, I think Is, you know, how many people, how many. How many Catholics do you know? They're like, yeah, they're a little crazy about that gay thing. We're not into that. We don't believe that. But it's a great church. It's a great community. It's great comfort to us. Like, there is that all the time. And this is where I think leads us into MAGA exceptionalism, which I would love to hear you talk about. Tia, with, you know, if I am a good person who goes to a church that says women can't serve, gays are going to hell, your trans kids are not human. I am now a good, decent MAGA person who doesn't believe all the crazy stuff that I'm hearing. Tia, tell us what you say to them with your fundamentalist understanding.
- [49:31]
Tia Levings
Yeah, I hold space. I hold space and I empathize with them where they are, because I've been there. It is really hard to step away from the fundamentalist promise that you believed and then have the psychological health to sit in the seat of discomfort, which is so hard to tolerate. And most of us have to work at it and then be met with uncertainty. So, like, let's use a practical example. With the holidays, you can deconstruct whether or not you believe Jesus really came through to earth on with Bio Virgin. And does Christmas have this spiritual meaning? And you might come to a different, like, intellectual belief about Christmas and then you might stop attending that church, because I don't really believe that that's Christmas. But if it's part of your family traditions and institutions, then what are you doing? And then everything becomes a point of analysis. Every single thing. Am I going to spend money on this? Am I going to take time out for this? Am I going to decorate my house? Am I going to cut down a tree? And so it becomes this really hard thing. A very healthy person can do that and still be uncomfortable. An unhealthy person can't do it at all. So they have been taught in religion to smile through their suffering, and their suffering aligns them with Christ. So they understand that this is not ideal. They are not expecting it to be perfect. They are expecting to overall be part of a system that's going to better society. And they couple that with dissonance and different. You know, we have a misinformation campaign happening. It's not all their fault. Like, there. There's some external abuses happening here that have changed our culture that we have not kept up with. And we don't. We're not really sure how to combat. But what we do know is that people crave fundamentalism when they are feeling chaotic and they, they need to have that stronger internal compass that says, I'm not going to be swayed by this. I have a foundation to stand on. If you take it away from me, it's not going to make me fall apart like what my husband did that night when his external system was taken away, he crumbled. He had nothing, nothing to hold himself together on and to this day has nothing really to hold himself together unless he has an external system. And so I just sit with them and I spend a lot of my work trying not to vilify, trying not to other into the other side and say, okay, well tell me what that was like, or that must have been really hard because that's what people did for me when I was on that forum with Berkeley grads and feminists. And I'm coming at it with this little Gothard fundamentalism who's like, can't go to the library because there's dangerous books there. They didn't other me, they let me spout and God did I spout some theological crap at them. And I shamed people and I was a hothead and I was complicit in systems and I did all that stuff. And a lot of them just was like, tell us how it is, you 24 year old smartass. Like, they just let me do my thing. And so that's some karma, like pay it back and give somebody the grace that you want yourself. You know, that is something we can carry with us. Is that golden rule.
- [52:29]
Amanda Doyle
Can I read something that you wrote that I loved for this? Because I think it's also what we're talking about when we sit in the church and we, we agree with 50% but not 50%, but we agree we're not going to talk about the 50% we don't agree with. You say not all Trump supporters will join the not all men and not all Christian arguments because not all of them, but enough of them. No one gets to participate in group energy for group impact and then claim individuality in the aftermath. The ones grieving harm and promised harm are releasing words and sounds of pain. If good people who voted for Trump want to be exceptional individuals who don't align with the harms of the congregational platform, you need to take measures that help you stand apart. That begins with empathy over shame, curiosity, vocality for what you'll do to oppose them. This will make you an outlier in your group. And the grieving doubt you'll do it. If enough caring Trump supporters expressed curiosity, kindness, empathy and vocality against the oppression, the red wave would become purple. But that's up to you. If you are part of a group that has a group impact and you're not having individuality within that group, then you can't claim separateness from that group. If you are in a church and they're spouting about gay people, you can't then go to the side and say, but we don't agree with that. It is your impact. Yes, like that's right.
- [54:03]
Abby Wambach
It's why it's so infuriating right now. Abby and I talk about this a lot in the aftermath of this election. To have men, well meaning men, one at a time, come up to us privately and say, I'm so sorry. And I want to say, just make sure that before you privately say that to a woman, that you have said that loudly to your voice. If you are not standing in your groups of power and saying, this is shameful, what are we going to do? How are we going to show up for the people that are going to. Then do not apologize to me in private, because there is no such thing as silent solidarity. So it's like that movie, that woman talking movie, right? It's like there's three options. You can stay, lose your individuality, be complicit, you agree, or you can stay and fight like hell from inside. My friend Rachel Held Evans used to do that. She stayed in the machine, but she fought like hell while she was in it. Or you can leave and help others leave, but that's it. You don't get to stay, be quiet and still be thought of as different.
- [55:22]
Tia Levings
That's right.
- [55:23]
Glennon Doyle
Woof.
- [55:24]
Amanda Doyle
In speaking about leaving, I know that Tia, you talked about what it took emotionally to get yourself prepared to leave, and that that was a very long road. You were preparing for so long. I think it's super important and I wonder for folks who are listening to this and may need to prepare themselves to leave, it'll be very important to just leave folks with a couple very tactical things, because it is true that the most dangerous time in a person's life, leaving an abusive relationship is the leaving of the abusive relationship. Like that period directly before, during and directly after is where most people die. So I know you did some things with untraceable funds. You did some things like if there were three things that you were like, if you think whether it's going to be seven years from now, seven months from now, that you may need to get yourself out. What are like practical things?
- [56:22]
Abby Wambach
And if it's just. Even if it's not true abuse, but it's a spiritual abuse, mental abuse. Like for anyone who's trying to leave any sort of high control relationship or group. What are the steps?
- [56:33]
Amanda Doyle
Totally. It's just, I think sometimes it's patronizing and unsettling to be like get out of there. When it's like actually that's the most dangerous time for you. So be very careful as you get out of there.
- [56:45]
Tia Levings
So yeah, practical steps when you know that even when you suspect it might like it's okay if you're not sure yet. Just give yourself the tools for when you are sure that you have what you need. So untraceable money is a big one. You can get yourself gift cards. If you have a friend who you think might be in this boat, give them gift cards. It is like one of the most powerful things you can do for the someone who's in DV or trying to get out of DV is to have untraceable money. Read, read, read bravely. Arm yourself with the stories of other women. It will help nurture your own resilience and resourcefulness. Reach out to someone who's safe. And I like to use someone who is sworn to secrecy. So that means like a therapist or a priest. I worked with an orthodox priest who was very progressively minded and he knew what was going on in a way that he was a resource. And then I just did show up at his house in two in the morning with four children. Like that did happen. His gift to me was that he helped me stage a formal goodbye to my husband the next morning so that I could leave the state with them without being accused of kidnapping. And that isn't something I even thought to know about. So that's the power of having the right advocates around you. There are underground networks, so if you can only reach out to someone online, there are hotlines, websites, my DMs, I refer people to a few networks that I'm aware of. Signal is a good reliable app for this. I believe that once you open your mind and your heart to a direction, the universe will catch you and provide you with the resources you need when you need them. I think that's one of the biggest things you can do is allow for the possibility of leaving. Love isn't supposed to hurt. Marriage isn't supposed to be a never ending case of hard. If you're in pain, you deserve to not be in pain. And you don't have to decide Everything today, just get to where you're not hurting anymore. Give yourself the honor of being able to think through this clearly is, I think, one of the biggest mental steps that someone can give themselves.
- [58:45]
Abby Wambach
And follow Tia, y'all. Seriously. Tia's social media is a source of strength and sanity and brilliance. Actually, it's extremely helpful. So go follow Tia. Get Tia's book. We're going to leave all of this in the show notes or whatever podcasters say about that. And Tia, Abby's laughing because I don't know what show notes are.
- [59:06]
Glennon Doyle
She says show notes all the time.
- [59:08]
Amanda Doyle
We'll put it in the show notes. We know. I know what show notes are.
- [59:11]
Abby Wambach
Okay? I just. You said three words that just keep coming back to me. You just kept. You said, she has grown. And I just. I love those three words, she has grown. I just keep thinking about that when I look at you, I find you to be just a fucking inspiration. And I just want you to just daydream and hike and paint forever.
- [59:38]
Amanda Doyle
Thank you.
- [59:39]
Tia Levings
Thank you so much for this. What a dream come true.
- [59:42]
Abby Wambach
When we come back again, which we are going to, can you tell us the prequels and can we talk about the Tradwives and how we just are trying to buy like a shirt from free people and then we end up losing our souls?
- [59:54]
Tia Levings
Yes.
- [59:54]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, slow people.
- [59:57]
Abby Wambach
Happy to scary out there next time we discuss it. Bye, POD Squad. Go be free. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.