How to Lose Half of Your Guilt (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to Lose Half of Your Guilt (Best Of)"

We Can Do Hard Things, hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle, delves deep into the pervasive emotion of guilt and explores strategies to alleviate its undue burden on our lives. Drawing insights from Dr. Becky Kennedy, the trio offers a nuanced understanding of guilt, differentiates it from other uncomfortable emotions, and provides practical frameworks for setting and maintaining healthy boundaries.

---

Understanding Guilt: What It Is and What It Isn’t

At the heart of the episode, Glennon Doyle introduces the concept of guilt by distinguishing between genuine guilt and what Dr. Becky Kennedy refers to as “not guilt.”

• Genuine Guilt ([03:38]): This arises when we act against our personal values. For instance, Glennon shares a parenting scenario where she broke her value of maintaining trust with her child by sharing a confidential detail with a friend, leading to a feeling of guilt.

  • Glennon Doyle: “I felt guilty because I had done something outside of my values... I value the trust that I have with my kid... I did not honor that. I felt guilty.” ([03:35])

• Not Guilt ([08:39]): This refers to the discomfort we feel when we act against external expectations or cultural norms, even if our actions align with our personal values. For example, a mother feeling "mom guilt" for leaving her child to dine with a friend, despite valuing her child's independence and her own social connections.

  • Glennon Doyle: “I value... my life outside of the children. So what I'm feeling when I'm sitting at dinner is something that feels uncomfortable, but it is not guilt.” ([09:03])

Reframing Guilt: Dr. Becky Kennedy’s Insights

Glennon and her co-hosts elaborate on Dr. Becky Kennedy’s framework for reconciling these two types of feelings:

• Guilt vs. Discomfort ([09:47]): While guilt indicates a breach of personal values requiring reconciliation, discomfort from external pressures doesn’t necessitate an apology or change. Amanda adds that discomfort can also stem from others' expectations, not just cultural norms.
  • Amanda Doyle: “If you are always doing more than you should at work... but your value in setting a boundary is... I value my rest... then you are actually acting within your values, and what you think is guilt is not.” ([10:00])

The Tennis Court Analogy: Setting and Holding Boundaries

To illustrate boundary-setting, the hosts employ the tennis court analogy:

• Setting the Boundary ([24:00]): Deciding not to attend a family barbecue to prioritize family rest is akin to serving the ball over the net.

  • Glennon Doyle: “We have done our part. We have clearly and kindly stated what we're going to do.” ([24:25])

• Holding the Boundary ([25:20]): When the brother reacts negatively, instead of internalizing his feelings, the hosts emphasize maintaining one's stance without absorbing the other’s emotional response.

  • Abby Wambach: “...we are supposed to then acknowledge. But almost put this, like, invisible cloak around us that those feelings are real, but they are not going to enter our body.” ([36:11])

Avoiding Emotional Invasion: Protecting Your Well-Being

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on preventing others’ emotions from "invading" your own:

• Emotional Boundaries ([27:22]): By not internalizing others' reactions, you preserve your emotional space and maintain clarity in your interactions.

  • Glennon Doyle: “...we can't empathize when we are not containing ourselves and seeing other people.” ([37:13])

• Compassion Through Boundaries ([33:27]): Amanda highlights that strong boundaries enable genuine empathy, as exemplified by a beloved cashier who maintains serenity despite another customer's frustration.

  • Glennon Doyle: “They had the strongest and most consistent boundaries.” ([33:33])

Navigating Conflicting Values and Resentment

The hosts acknowledge the complexity of aligning multiple personal values:

• Prioritizing Values ([39:54]): Abby suggests prioritizing values based on the situation, balancing commitments with personal well-being.

  • Abby Wambach: “I think about it from like a priority level... communicating with the people around you, figuring out what the values of this specific situation will rise to the top.” ([40:25])

• Resentment as a Signal ([42:04]): Amanda proposes viewing resentment as an indicator that a boundary supports your well-being, rather than suppressing it to appease others.

  • Amanda Doyle: “Resentment is my superpower... if you're introducing resentment in you towards someone you love... you're actually not... you're doing the right thing.” ([42:04])

Practical Steps to Maintain Healthy Boundaries

To solidify their discussion, the trio offers actionable advice:

1. Self-Reflection: Assess whether your actions align with your personal values or external expectations.
2. Clear Communication: State your boundaries kindly and firmly without over-explaining.
3. Emotional Resilience: Develop the ability to respect others’ feelings without absorbing them.
4. Prioritization: Determine which values take precedence in conflicting scenarios to minimize internal conflict and resentment.

• Glennon Doyle: “What we do is we embody it... we bring it into our body. We were fine a second ago, and now it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.” ([27:35])

Conclusion: Embracing Authenticity Over Unnecessary Guilt

The episode culminates in a call to action for listeners to re-evaluate their relationship with guilt. By distinguishing between genuine guilt and socially induced discomfort, and by establishing firm boundaries, individuals can lead more authentic, fulfilling lives free from the unnecessary weight of misplaced guilt.

• Glennon Doyle: “This is a big deal. Women and guilt. Oh my goodness. We need a huge cultural reframe on all of this...” ([43:34])

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Glennon Doyle ([03:35]): “I felt guilty because I had done something outside of my values... I value the trust that I have with my kid... I did not honor that. I felt guilty.”
• Glennon Doyle ([09:03]): “What I'm feeling when I'm sitting at dinner is something that feels uncomfortable, but it is not guilt.”
• Amanda Doyle ([42:04]): “Resentment is my superpower... if you're introducing resentment in you towards someone you love... you're actually not... you're doing the right thing.”

---

This episode serves as a profound exploration of guilt, urging listeners to introspect and realign their emotional responses with their true values, thereby fostering a life of courage, authenticity, and emotional freedom.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

If you've ever thought you can't find a bra that's functional and comfy, think again. I'm a big fan of thirdlove. I have some of their bras and they also have great athleisure. Heavy on the leisure. I know our producer Lauren has some leggings from there that she absolutely loves. They started this brand to make bra shopping way less frustrating. So they're trying to tackle all of the typical bra blms we all deal with. Like having straps that actually freaking stay in place. Designed right in San Francisco, their bras go through a ton of testing on real people before they hit the market. Plus they offer a perfect fit promise and an easy 60 day return policy so you can shop with confidence. They even invented half cups. Amazing. So you don't have to choose between sizes that just don't work. Plus you can visit their virtual fitting room to find your perfect fit fast. Time to get your problem solved. Use code podcast515 for $15 off your first [e-mail] Finding a great mentor who.

[Abby Wambach]

Can really help me level up isn't easy. But my dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So when I heard she had a class on Masterclass I was so excited. Masterclass is the ultimate way to learn from the best, to become your best. It's the only platform where you can access over 200 world renowned experts for just $10 a month. An annual membership gives you unlimited access to every instructor. One class that really stood out to me was James Clear's course on building new habits. 88% of masterclass members say it had a positive impact on their lives and I can definitely see why. Plus every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. So there's no risk in starting your learning journey today. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] SL Hard Things that's 15% [e-mail] Hard Things masterclass.com HardThings.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hello, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We love you. Yes we do. Thanks for coming back.

[Abby Wambach]

Can you believe they keep coming back?

[Glennon Doyle]

I can now. It's just like, I don't know, it feels like a morning meeting every single day. So nice all that adulting we have to do out there. And it's so nice to have a place where we can come and talk about humaning.

[Abby Wambach]

So many tricky things happening all the time.

[Glennon Doyle]

There are so many tricky things happening all the time. And that is correct without over promising. What I'm telling you today is that we are going to change your life. Life. No, for real. Because what we're going to do today is talk about how to reframe guilt and what is guilt and what is not guilt, and how we have been discussing how to free ourselves of 75% of what we consider guilt in our lives that is not at all guilt and is actually good. So let's get into this reframing, because I think it could take a lot of weight off your shoulders. So I'm gonna try to describe it in my own way, even though I did not generate these ideas, I heard these ideas from Dr. Becky. Does Dr. Becky have a last name?

[Amanda Doyle]

Kennedy.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, Kennedy.

[Amanda Doyle]

Dr. Becky Kennedy.

[Glennon Doyle]

I didn't know if she was, like, Beyonce or Adele, you know?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, she's getting there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, she's getting there. Okay. Dr. Becky Kennedy. You know how much we love Dr. Becky.

[Amanda Doyle]

She's the good inside person. Figure out good ins inside. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

She presents as a parenting expert, but she's a Trojan horse. Okay? You go in there thinking you're gonna get some tips about your parenting, and then she just messes you all up, and then she fixes you. Okay?

[Amanda Doyle]

So that's right, because everyone thinks there's something terribly wrong with their kids. No one thinks there's something terribly wrong with them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. It's like when I was like, I feel like my eyes are two different sizes in my pictures. And then I realized, no, my eyes are just two different sizes. It's like, I feel like there's something wrong with my parenting. And then you realize, oh, no, no, no. There's something molecularly wrong with me, and I need to rearrange myself, and then my kids will be fine. Okay? Dr. Becky was talking about this concept. Now I need help explaining this because, sister, you were there. You were not there, babe. So you will be able to tell me if this is making sense. Okay. And I'm actually going to run this by Dr. Becky before I release it so that she can fix it if it needs to be. All right, guilt. Let us talk about guilt for a second, because the idea is that we are overusing the term and diagnosis of guilt when we feel guilty. So Dr. Becky said that guilt is what happens inside of us when we do something outside of our values. So, for example, I'm gonna actually just use a parenting example right now to describe this. But, like, let's say so. One time when one of my kids was little, they told me something in. In slight confidence, and I shared it with a friend, and then the friend said something in front of the kids that made it obvious that I had told my friend, I know, very bad. And so not bad, just busted. Just busted. So. But I'm still good inside. So. Yes. So in that moment, I felt guilt because I had done something outside of my values, because I value the trust that I have with my kid. I value confidence. I value privacy. I did not honor that. I felt guilty. Correct. Use of guilt. Now, we actually call a million other things guilt that are what Dr. Becky calls not guilt. Okay, so, for example, we call mom guilt guilt. Mom guilt is this idea that. Okay, now here's a different scenario. I am going out to dinner with a friend, and my kid is like, don't leave me. Don't leave me. You're the worst. Don't leave me. I'm crying, crying. And then I say, I see you're upset, but I'm gonna go meet with my friend, and then I go to dinner, and then I sit there and I say to my friend, I'm having so much mom guilt right now because I left my kid. That is not guilt, because that is not acting outside of my values. I value my child seeing that I have friendships, that I have social connections, that I have a life outside of this home, that they can handle their business if I leave for an hour, that they have resilience, that I'm going to come back, that they can trust the people we love, leave and come back. Everything I'm doing right now is inside of my values. So what I'm feeling when I'm sitting at dinner is something. It's something. It feels uncomfortable, but it is not guilt. So here's the difference. To me, Dr. Becky called it guilt and not guilt. Guilt is what I feel when I have acted outside of my values. What I think not guilt is, is the discomfort I feel when I have acted outside of cultural pressure or values. So, for example, if I work outside the home and I go to a event or something where all the moms there do not work outside the home or work inside the home, and I. They have more knowledge of. I may be speaking from experience. They have more knowledge about what is going on at school and what is going on between children, and I feel something inside me. Yeah, I feel something inside me. The lazy response to that or what I have been taught to feel is that that is mom guilt. No, it's not. Because working actually for me outside the home is not against my values. Working inside the home is not against my values either. I've done both. But at this moment, I value the Fact that my kids are seeing me do the work that I do in.

[Amanda Doyle]

The world, and not just in reference to your kids. Because you're saying you value your kids seeing you go out to dinner, you value your kids seeing you work. You actually just value going out to dinner with your friends, and you value actually working.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? So.

[Amanda Doyle]

So it doesn't. I mean, ancillarily. Is that a word? Ancillarily. The. It also is helpful for your kids to see it. But I think it's good to claim that's good.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's.

[Amanda Doyle]

If only for me. I value it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I value this. Good. I value this. I value working. I value going out. So I'm not doing anything against my own values. That's even better. So I think it. It's helpful for all of us to think about when we feel guilty. It's something that we have done outside of our values that we need to maybe apologize for, maybe make right. But there is this whole other discomfort that we feel when we are acting outside of what the culture has told us to do. So I feel icky and sad because I have absorbed these messages from the culture that I'm supposed to have no life outside of the children. Or what's another example? That has nothing to do with an example. Okay, great.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because yours are from the, like, family perspective of kids and stuff. I think what's interesting is that you hear so often about it in terms of boundaries. So it doesn't necessarily have to be cultural expectations. I think it can be anyone's expectations. For example, if you are always doing more than you should at work, if you are always saying yes when you mean no to your parents, if you are always taking on the extra volunteer position in your community, and then you start to adjust that those expectations of all those people around you are going to be troubled. And you will feel that, and you will think it is guilt because you're quote, unquote, letting people down. But if your value in setting a boundary is, I'm valuing my time, I'm valuing my rest. I am a person who values rest. I am a person who values doing things I want to do and not doing things begrudgingly I don't want to do yes, then you are actually acting within your values, maybe for the first time, and there's gonna be tolment there that you think is guilt. And when you think something's guilt, you think that there's something you need to do to fix it, so you undo that boundary.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exact. And what I think we need to shore up is that there are some guilt that we feel. And guilt is when we've acted outside of our values that needs to be fixed or repaired. But we need to be able to identify this other discomfort that is just I have held a value of my own. Yes, guilt is I've betrayed a value of my own. The other one is I've withheld a boundary of my own and that is making forces outside of me uncomfortable. So, for example, I am a workaholic who has decided decided I am actually going to rest. And I have a feeling inside of me when I say no to that thing. And I need to not fix it, but create resilience for this discomfort, which is this feeling inside of me means I am being loyal to my value as opposed to betraying my value. But we are labeling both as guilt. Foreign was the last time you really thought about your oral care routine? Bokeh is on a mission to inspire more mindful oral care. And it all starts with their proven ingredients and feel good formulas. It's not just about clean teeth. It's a full body experience because when you take care of your mouth, you're taking care of your whole body. I start using this stuff and it is actually a damn delight. All of these different flavors. Like why did toothpaste decide it has to only be one flavor? Boca's secret ingredient is nano hydroxyapatite, NHA for short. It was first used by NASA astronauts in space to help rebuild their teeth. And now it's in Bokeh's toothpaste to restore yours. Bokeh is non toxic fluoride free and free from parabens, SLS and artificial flavoring. For a limited time, Bokeh is offering listeners 15% off its bestselling toothpastes on Amazon and bokeh.com with code Glennon15. That's Glennon15. Make the switch to non toxic Bokeh for the whole family. Well, in most parts of the country, it's officially too cold to do anything. But the upside, you can cocoon yourself in Bomba socks, slippers and underwear all winter long. Bombas are so cozy. And the secret is in their fabrics. My personal favorite are the slippers. If you've got cold feet like mine, you'll love the fluffy sherpa lining and marshmallow like cushioning. But here's the best part. Here's why I wear Bombas. Every Bombas purchase gives back. For every item you buy, Bombas donates another to someone facing homelessness. And they've donated over 150 million items. Plus with Bombas 100% happiness guarantee. Returns and exchanges are a breeze. So try bombas now head over to bombas.com hardthings and use code hardthings for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O m b a s.com hardthings code hardthings at checkout.

[Unknown]

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist whether you're running, swimming or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations. IPhone XS are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

[Abby Wambach]

So essentially we're saying, okay, you make a decision that isn't in line with your values and you feel bad about it. That is, that is a form of guilt that is in the right alignment with the definition that we're trying to talk about. And then here on the other side, you have made a decision that is in line with your values, but not in line with out their values, people out there, the culture, the family and whatever. And yes, we are experiencing emotions, but that emotion is different. It's just discomfort in staying true to your value. But while maybe going in opposition to the values of other people and the outside world.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. So there's three options for every decision. One, it's in line with my values and in line with everybody else's values. I feel comfortable and happy. Option two, I have made a decision that is outside of my values. I feel guilty. Number three, I've made a decision that is aligned with my values but not necessarily aligned with somebody else's expectations of me. I feel something. It is not guilt.

[Abby Wambach]

What is that?

[Glennon Doyle]

It is the ickiness that comes when I have stayed true to myself but abandoned someone else's expectations. God, why does that feel that we need to build resilience for?

[Amanda Doyle]

And I would just add a fourth category, which is why I think expectations is good language for this. It's like someone else's expectations because I think there's a fourth category where you can be operating within your own own values, consistent with your values, and also be operating inconsistent with your expectations of yourself. So, for example, and that might be the hardest place to be. So in your workaholism thing, it's like. Or in your I am a person who hustles and gets shit done. Maybe I am going to Make a decision to let something be a solid B effort because I have a value to do X this weekend. And so I'm making that decision in line with my values, but it is not in line with my expectations of myself, which is to make sure I always am doing A plus stuff. And that is the hardest thing because it's very tricky to determine what is an expectation of yourself that needs to be adjusted as opposed to a value of yourself that needs to be upheld.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Damn.

[Glennon Doyle]

Very good.

[Abby Wambach]

I get it.

[Glennon Doyle]

And one reason to do this also is because when we decide what it is, the importance for me of knowing whether if this is guilt or not guilt, if this is the feeling that I'm abandoning my own values or the feeling that I'm abandoning other values, other expectations. Other expectations. Or. Yeah, is that that determines our posture next. Okay, so I'm going to go back to the mom example and then we can move into a different one. But if I am working or. Or I am meeting a friend and I don't figure out which one that is, if I settle on, oh, this is guilt. My posture is, I'm sorry, I'm so, you know, I come home, I'm, oh, baby. The guilt that we show when we misidentify as guilt is that we in our body, in our voices, in our energy, are apologizing. And that signals to the other person that we've done something wrong, which then they understand this is wrong. For example, if it's the work thing, and I'm like, no, I actually am ending at five. I'm done. I'm not. I'm going to go home and I'm going to rest. And because that's in line with my values, or it's in line with an aspirational value. Right? Like, right. It's aspirational. One day I'm going to believe this shit. So I'm thinking I'm going to do it until I believe it. Right? And that's a lot of times what we're doing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it's destroyed my entire existence.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. But I would argue that an aspirational value is our value, or we wouldn't be longing for it. Right. It's just something we haven't lived into yet. But if I identify that feeling that I have afterwards as guilt, then I'm apologetic in my, oh, I know, but tomorrow I'm going to work later. Or, you know, I'm so sorry, I'll do. I'll do more work over the weekend. And that signals to everyone else that what she's doing is not okay. And then I'm complicit with the whole thing that continues the pattern that I'm trying to break as opposed to somebody seeing me say, I'm actually going to be done at five, and that's all. And they're like, wow, we can do that.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Then that is changing the value.

[Abby Wambach]

I think that that's so, so important the way that we respond to it, even in our bodies. Right. It can either defeat the whole purpose of what we're trying to go and be in value of, or it can then project even more of the same stuff that we're trying to get away from.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

And just as important as it is to model that, I think it's equally important in our posture towards ourselves. Because then you're like, I am full of torment. This wasn't correct. I am continuing to try to figure out what parts of this are right and what parts of it are wrong as opposed to just having solidity in that. So when you come home being like you're sad and that's okay. Like I was gone and. And you're sad and that's okay. And that's. That's right for you.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I had so much fun.

[Amanda Doyle]

And what's right for me is that I just went and did that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

So we're meeting on this grassy plain where you are right and I am right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's lovely to meet you here.

[Abby Wambach]

What makes it so excruciating is like we're really trying to act out these deep, like breaking these deep seated conditioning.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's like, it's torture because it's like you've done this thing your whole life. You've believed this thing or you've been taught this thing unknowingly. And to go kind of against that grain and to walk in your own integrity and in your own value. Sometimes it is in opposition to what you've been conditioned to believe to be true.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. That's what all these things are.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Unknown]

You can save every day by shopping at Whole Foods Market. Seriously. Don't just go for their big sales. Walk the store and see the savings for yourself. In the seafood department, look for the yellow low price sign on Whole Foods Market. Responsibly farmed salmon. This fish is perfect for the grill. Buttery, fatty, yet lean. Nice thick filets. I'm getting hungry just thinking about it, and I know I can get it at a great price. There are so many ways to save at Whole Foods Market now, you know.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I'm excited to Tell you today about MIDI Health. If you have heard our menopause episodes, you know how passionate I feel about women having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives.

[Amanda Doyle]

Here's the deal.

[Unknown]

If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause, log on to MIDI Health.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have done this. It is easy.

[Unknown]

In fact, I have recently been pursuing with MIDI health hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body. They're clinicians. They meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. Concerns. It's all through telehealth and 247 messaging. And they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy.

[Amanda Doyle]

You deserve to feel great.

[Unknown]

Book your virtual visit today at join midi. That's join midi.com.

[Glennon Doyle]

And now I have another thing that Dr. Becky said that is going to help this. How do you do this? How do you do this? Okay, so Dr. Becky said that she wanted us to imagine a tennis game. Is it a match? A tennis match situation?

[Amanda Doyle]

The tennis.

[Glennon Doyle]

The tennis. Okay, so think about a tennis field match.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a court.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Think about a tennis court.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

One person's on one side, the other person's on the other side. Okay, so you are making a decision. Let's go to the example of I'm gonna stop work at 5:00. Or she used the example of I'm not gonna go to my brother's cookout on Sunday because my family is tired. We need some family time. Let's just stick with hers because I think we're closer. To get to the essence of what she wants to know, let's stick with.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hers because that worked when she said.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Okay. So we call our brother and we say, I'm actually not going to host a barbecue on Sunday because my family needs some rest and we're just going to have some family time. That is us hitting the ball over the net. We have done our part. We have clearly and kindly stated what we're going to do. That is not the hard part, because the hardest part of boundaries is not setting the boundary. Hardest part of boundaries is holding the boundary. It's not saying the thing, it's what happens next. Because what happens next is. All right, the ball is now in the brother's court. The Brother or anybody to whom you deliver a boundary, a boundary to. Has every right to have feelings about it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Mm.

[Glennon Doyle]

They're gonna have feelings. That's what people have. That brother might hit the ball back to you or try to hit the ball back to you with some sort of like, but, whoa.

[Amanda Doyle]

But I hosted you last weekend.

[Glennon Doyle]

I hosted you last weekend. Or, but we miss you. We love you, or, why are you so selfish? It could be. It could be a lot of things.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm really looking forward to this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. For those of us who are extremely sensitive to other people's emotions, it could be a turn of a eyeball. It could be like.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

A smile that goes different. It could be.

[Amanda Doyle]

It could be a text back that says K period.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God. Oh, God. Then you just have to burn your phone. It doesn't have to be a you're so selfish. Like, for me, all it has to be somebody else does is a raised eyebrow. Now, here's what we do. What we do is we internalize into our bodies the other person's reaction. We have delivered the boundary. We have the peace inside of us. We are. Okay. Then the other person has whatever their reaction is or whatever our perception of their reaction is. And what we do is we embody it. We bring it into our body. We were fine a second ago, and now it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. And for anyone who is like me, you can understand what I'm saying. It sounds weird, but it's like, no, you're not yourself anymore. You are now internalizing the imagined feelings of the other person. Okay? Now, the really interesting part of this is the reason we have to avoid this, that we have to not let our bodies be invaded, is because we're making that shit up. We can't embody someone else's feelings. So now we're not even seeing the other person because we have an imagined experience of the other person in our body. So now we're not having our own experience, and we're not seeing the other experience. We're just completely invaded.

[Abby Wambach]

Just assuming, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

We're assuming.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right now, in case it's getting weird, I want to explain that I saw this happen a couple days ago. Okay. Outside of myself, because usually I'm the one getting invaded.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I want to pause for a second.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because it is both in the I'm assuming I know how you feel, and also in the case of not having to guess, you could have a really thoughtful, great relationship where the brother says, I'm actually really hurt. My Family was really looking forward to doing this. I didn't feel like doing this last week and I did it. Like, it really hurts me. And so there can be a very clear, you don't have to assume or fill in any gaps situation. And yet the same still applies. So I just want to make sure that like the theory we're talking about now works with both the assuming what other person is thinking and when you have a very clear read on, even if the person is sensitively and thoughtfully given you explanation of how they feel as a result of your boundary.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. And either way, you just kind of want to die inside because you're.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, you want to fix it. You want to make it better. What you have just created the mess that you have just created. You. You hit your ball over, they hit it back and you're like, okay, got the ball now I'll take care of it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And you're not even there yet. You're just like a mess of the other person's feelings. You are trying to experience it. Okay, here's what happened. So I'm at our little local grocery store recently and there's a. A woman who's a cashier who works there quite often and I just adore her for some reason. She's like, I don't know, she's an old lady who calls me honey. So it's done for me. I'm just in love with her.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's all it takes, people.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's all it takes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Stop trying so hard. You just have to call people honey.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you're all good if you're an older woman.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Anyone else? Then I. You're dead to me. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, no, no. Clearly, yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. So she is checking people out. Now, I will say about my friend, she's not the fastest check checker out, okay? Not the fastest. Look at you, so evolved.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're liking even slow check routers these days.

[Glennon Doyle]

God, this therapy is working well, I mean, it's one of those places where there's only ever like four people in line. Okay, so it's not. So there's this person in line who's right in front of me and my beloved cashier is doing her checking and she is not going super fast. And this person in front of me is so pissed about it. And I don't even think that this person was saying any words, but it was just like they were. Their body was so obviously annoyed and like shifting feet and rolling eyes and doing all of these things that was so obvious because once again, this is a Small place. There's only four people in line. So I am behind this person. My body is gone. I'm invasioned of the body snatchers. But I'm half internalizing this person's angst. Mostly I'm internalizing how I think the cashier is feeling about this person's discomfort. So I am livid. I am hurt, I am upset. I am everybody in the room. I am hating this person in front of me. Okay, just hummus, idle. This person in front of me who is hurting. The feelings of my favorite cashier who calls me honey. By the time this person in front of me gets to the cash register, I'm sweating. I am in hatred. My cashier friend has made no changes, has not reacted in any way to this human being. It is as if she has not noticed, which is impossible not to notice. Everyone has noticed. The person gets to the front, and my cashier friend looks at the person with complete serenity and says, oh, are you in a hurry, honey? With no judgment, just, are you in a hurry, honey? And the person in front of me takes a second and says, yeah, my dog's at home sick. And then the cashier friend said, okay, and finished doing their things and then checked out. Now I have experienced the equivalent of a marathon. I am tired. I need a nap.

[Amanda Doyle]

Now you're so worried about this person's dog. Questioning every moral judgment you've ever made about everyone.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right, because a dog comes in and. Okay, now here's what I want to say about that whole entire experience. It made me think of our friend, Dr. Brene Brown. We will list all of these episodes. The Dr. Becky episodes. Dr. Brene Brown's episode. A study that Dr. Brene Brown did where she and her team canvassed all these people. She cares about facts so she doesn't just say how she feels. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

She's one of those weird ones.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's one of those weird. But she has, like, chart and she's a scientist. Yeah, yeah. Like I always say, Bernee is just shame researcher. And so am I. But my field is the whole world. In my life, I just do things, feel shame, and then study myself. She wanted to find out what people who were the most compassionate had in common. The most compassionate people. What is the one thing that they most had in common? And they had a lot of hypotheses. Such as? Maybe they all have a spiritual practice. Maybe they all meditate. Maybe they all have good parents. Maybe they have what? You know, who knows? Do you know what the number one thing that all of the most compassionate people had in common.

[Amanda Doyle]

What they call people, honey?

[Glennon Doyle]

They had the strongest and most consistent boundaries.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, fuck.

[Glennon Doyle]

The strongest and most consistent boundaries. Why is that? Oh, because my cashier friend, when she is not letting her body be snatched by another person, she can actually see that other person. The other person is still an other to her.

[Amanda Doyle]

So she can empathize with them.

[Glennon Doyle]

She can empathize with them. If we go back to our friend who's telling their brother, I really am not going to do the barbecue. And the brother says, that makes me so sad. We hosted, we did the thing, and then I don't take it all in. I'm still looking at my brother thinking, my brother's really sad. My brother really loves me. We have this situation where I need this time on Sunday, and I'm gonna take it and I'm gonna keep it. And my brother's sad and loves me and my family and wants to make this work. So I say to my brother, that's beautiful, and I love you too. When are we gonna see each other again? Yeah, there's no problem that needs to be fixed.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. She used the example that you could actually. When you don't take the ball back, like, so how it plays out when you take the ball back is you take the ball back and from your brother, and then you say, okay, oh, never mind. You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. I feel what you feel. And I am now going to schlep my family out to your place, and we're going to do the barbecue. And the way that works is you've just trampled your own boundary. So you're pissed and resentful because you have actually acted contrary to your value, which knew that you needed family time. So when you put the, like, glass wall on the tennis court, and when the brother hits it, it stays with him. Then you can see him and you can actually be like, you know what? I. I understand your frustration. I honestly would be pissed, too, if you made plans with me. I was relying on them, and then you backed out of it. I'd be sad and frustrated and annoyed, too, and I totally get that. So you actually are able to connect in the way where you can see them, what they're feeling instead of taking their feeling into you, and then you can't see yourself or them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's same with the kid thing. If you come home and you're like, you're sad, so I'm sad. But if you're keeping no, I'm acting within my value, and you're sad. And now we're two people that are having two different feelings together. And where do we go from there?

[Abby Wambach]

So can I just bring back to the tennis court analogy a little bit? So the ball goes over to the brother. Brother's gonna have his feelings. He's gonna try to hit that ball back to you. And we are supposed to then acknowledge. Okay, he's gonna have his feelings, but almost put this, like, invisible cloak around us that those feelings are real, but they are not going to enter our body. Bodies.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

They need to stay with him.

[Abby Wambach]

Got it.

[Amanda Doyle]

His feelings stay with him. So what she's saying is either push the ball back and not an aggressive way, but just like, oh, this was getting confused. But that ball belongs to you, and you. I'm gonna give it back to its rightful owner.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. And you're not saying that.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, you're not saying it, but in your mind.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're like, I'm gonna analyze this ball coming back to me. Is this guilt or is this not guilt? First I analyze. Have I acted consistent with my values? Okay. My value is to know when I need rest, know when my family needs family time. No, we need a quiet weekend. Okay?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

So check. So since I've acted in accordance with my values, I know this is not guilt that I'm feeling. It's not guilt. So that means that the ball that's coming back to me actually belongs on the other side of the net. And so I'm going to gently push it back. And now that it's where it belongs, I can say, God, it sucks to have that ball. And I'm sorry that, like, you're feeling that way, and I'd be feeling that way, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

And what should we do next?

[Amanda Doyle]

Also, I've still made the right decision for my family.

[Abby Wambach]

Cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. It has to do with embodiment. Yeah, I think it has to do with embodiment, like, learning to embody your own feelings, not take on other people's stuff. And remembering that for all of my love bugs out there who are afraid that that's not kind. What I'm saying to you is that that is what makes people kind is the ability to keep your own feelings and see other people's feelings for their feelings so that you can see them and truly empathize with them. Because we can't empathize when we are not containing ourselves and seeing other people.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have a question that is probably like, the varsity level question of this that we didn't get to when Dr. Becky was teaching us this. But how do I know that it's consistent with my values? Because if I'm doing the self analysis on that particular scenario that she. She outlined where I'm like, okay, I had committed to go to this barbecue my brother's hosting. I now know that I definitely don't want to go if I'm doing that self analysis. There are three sets of values that I could be thinking about. I have a value to be committed to showing up for my family and integrating my family with meaningful time together. I have a value to keep my commitments that I make to people and be trustworthy. My word is reliable. I have a value to honor what I know my family needs. And in this moment, we need rest and time together. My question is, how the hell do I know? Because something that is in line with value number three is necessarily not in line with value number two and arguably value number one in that situation. So I think that's the hardest part.

[Abby Wambach]

Agreed. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

How do you do that?

[Abby Wambach]

I think, to me, I think about it from like a priority level. Like, yes, we have a lot of values, things that we really care about, but every circumstance, certain values rise a little bit higher in priority than others. And to me, that's kind of how I weigh some decisions. And that's just like, kind of instinctive. And then, of course, it's like communicating with the people around you, your family, figuring out what the values of this specific situation will rise to the top or fall a little.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Because it is true that these are nuanced decisions. So you can have values that feel clashing. Like, you know, the other day it was like, do you want to do this thing for work? And it's like, well, I value building our business. I value connection. I value these things. I also value saying no and resting and not doing things. So in those situations, I really do think, okay, what makes me feel clenchy and what makes me feel expansive, what makes me feel warm, what makes me feel cold? That sounds so woo woo and cheesy, but that is truly how. And also I always think this. Do I want to do this thing today or tomorrow? I am constantly making plans for some future version of myself because I think that person's gonna be different than the person I am right now. Like, I'm constantly like, sure, I'll wanna do that. Since it's a month from now, I'll be a different person by that. I have never really wanted to. I've never woken up and been like, yes, I can't wait, no. You're inviting me to a party. Do I wanna go to that tonight? If I don't wanna go to that tonight, I am not going to want to do that in 30 tonights. Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think the one way to think about it that I just thought of is that resentment is my superpower. And by that I mean it's the opposite of that. That trying to be a hero and quote, unquote, do the right thing for and to others. When your most honest self knows that doing that quote unquote right thing will actually introduce your own resentment.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Towards the person and in the relationship, then it's that you're doing the right thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. Picture yourself getting ready to go do that thing. Do you feel bitter and resentful? Then don't go because you're doing nobody any favors.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right. So I think that's a good at least if for people like me. When you're caught between am I acting consistent with value system 1, 2 or 3, it's like, am I introducing resentment in me towards someone I love or respect or as part of the ecosystem of our relationship? And if the answer is yes, and you think you're doing that to do the right thing, you're actually not. You're doing the lazy ass thing, which is what I do, which is like, okay, well then I don't have to be confused about whether I make the right decision, so I'll just do it, but I'll just be pissy and resentful internally and that will no doubt affect this relationship.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. I want there to be a word for the not guilt. Like what is the word for the thing we feel inside of us when we are betraying an expectation or a cultural value or someone else's feelings? So we feel icky. I was just gonna say it's ick. It's icky. But it needs to like, be more specific than that.

[Abby Wambach]

Should we say like, it's the good guilt? I don't know if we should keep guilt in it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't think it's guilt. I don't think the, yeah, good guilt is like the vibe. But what is the word, if any? Pod Squad. I've been thinking about this and I can't come up with it, which is making me, you know that I like a word. I like a word. So it's inconsistent with your values to.

[Amanda Doyle]

Not have a word?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, yes. So if you think of what that word is or you have any ideas about this, let me know because I think we need to help each other build that resilience. So if you can think of a word for us, let us know, call us, email us, and also we want to hear your thoughts and ideas about this. Right? This is a big deal. Women and guilt. Oh my goodness. We need a huge cultural reframe on all of this, so thanks for hanging in there with us.

[Abby Wambach]

Dial in 747-200-5307.

[Glennon Doyle]

We will see you next time, love Bugs. Bye. See y if this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.