Carson Tuller (3:36)

Okay.

Glennon Doyle (3:37)

Carson Tuller is a coach, speaker, and activist whose work provides people with the tools they need to live authentic, fulfilling, and powerful lives. He identifies as queer and disabled. Carson grew up as a Mormon in a military family, moving around a lot before settling in Utah. His own journey into powerful living began in 2013, when in the same year, he came out and then was injured in an accident that paralyzed him from the chest down. Since then, Carson has brought his work to international nonprofits and presidential campaigns. When he isn't coaching or speaking, Carson can be found at the gym reading nonfiction or playing Pokemon with his niece and nephews. First of all, it's July. Happy Disability Pride Month. Carson.

Amanda Doyle (4:27)

Yes. Thank you. Isn't that so exciting that that's a thing?

Carson Tuller (4:30)

Yeah, it's terribly exciting.

Glennon Doyle (4:33)

It's terribly exc. Exciting and important.

Amanda Doyle (4:35)

Can I just preface by saying how grateful I am to be here? A and 2. Also, I need to clear that, like, maybe I'm gonna just be emotional a lot through this. I was, like, prepping, and I was already just, like, just, like, moved by what Glennon said at the top. Right. This is about freedom. Yeah, it's freedom. It's like, freedom to be with one's actual self. And so when I was prepping, I go back to places in my past where that wasn't available and how much suffering was there. So I'm just really in the presence of that. And I just want to say that before I start, so thanks for letting me just be me with you.

Carson Tuller (5:20)

Carson, what is that like for you? When you said that, it made me think of having to go back all the time. Like, I feel like I'm in this good place, and I'm finally free in many ways, and I'm happy. And then I go back, and it's very like going back into a haunted house over and over again. Like, do you feel as free when you come out of the backward trauma to prepare for things as you did before you went in?

Amanda Doyle (5:47)

It's a really good question. I. Okay. So the truth is that I am in and out of the haunted House of my of body stuff really frequently. I think that's kind of why I feel raw coming into this, is because, like, I was in the haunted house for two weeks, two weeks ago.

Carson Tuller (6:10)

Okay.

Amanda Doyle (6:11)

I had some health disruptions, and that always brings up the whole, like, what if this wouldn't have happened? What if I never would have been paralyzed? What if I didn't have chronic pain? What if I could just drive to my friend's house and go inside for a hangout? All these little things where there's, like, grief and anger. So I think I just have tried to develop the freedom to just be like, I'm gonna go to the haunted house, and then I'm gonna be in, like, the pretty castle of whole and completeness or whatever it is. I just kind of go in and out of that, actually.

Carson Tuller (6:43)

That is so freeing to me to hear that, because sometimes we can feel like when we go back into the haunted house, that that's failure or backward motion. But what you're saying is, life is just this eternity loop back and forth from the haunted house to the castle.

Amanda Doyle (6:57)

I know, and I so badly want to tell everybody and all the listeners, no, no, you can leave the haunted house forever. That's just not my experience. And so if someone has, like, that trick, send me a dm, we wouldn't.

Carson Tuller (7:11)

Have them on Carson because we wouldn't believe them.

Amanda Doyle (7:14)

No. So I have, like. I just have, like, multiple residents, I guess, in that space. But there is a freedom about just knowing that when I'm in that space, I know how to leave. And sometimes it takes time, and sometimes I just have to let my physiology chill out, cool down because I get spooked, and then just. I'll ease my way back into it. So I have a strategy for doing that, like, talking to people and writing and all the things.

Carson Tuller (7:46)

Do you think that the fact that you so freely and often go back into the haunted house or go back to that feeling of not feeling good enough or magical thinking, what if not this. What if not this?

Amanda Doyle (7:55)

That.

Carson Tuller (7:55)

That's why people love you so much, because so many people only show us the after, and then they talk to us about their old self who struggled. And, like, the struggling self is never present, so we can't relate. We can't feel less alone. But your struggling self, allowed, allows itself to be seen sometimes, and that makes us all feel connected to you. So thank you.

Amanda Doyle (8:20)

That means so much to me. So I had a friend when I became injured, when I broke my neck. Spoiler. That was doing all the updates. For my family. So my family wasn't bombarded with keeping people up to date. So we started a blog. But there came a point where I was like, well, I have something to say about this. I'd like to share something. And there was this pivotal moment of me going like, am I going to really say all of it in this hospital bed? About to bring in everybody into what it feels like to not know who I am anymore, to wonder if I can do this, the most human, raw things. And there was a moment of like, yes, and here we go. And once I do this, there's no going back. And this is going to be my thing that I give to the world is to say, this is what's up. I have such an aversion to hearing like that, like, I beat it story. That's why when anyone calls me a motivational speaker, I'm like, I'm not. I'm just going to like tell you the truth. And for me, that means learning how to live a powerful self expressed life inside of a lot of suffering and inside of a lot of joy. But that I get to choose who to be. Whether I'm in the castle or the haunted house. I get to kind of choose how to show up. That's really what I care about because I think that's real life.

Glennon Doyle (9:51)

That's beautiful.

Carson Tuller (9:53)

Okay, we're going back. We're starting when you're a little queer Mormon kid, because that's a super easy place to be. I imagine being a queer Mormon character. Haunted house, castle. I'm not sure what that is, but you come out to your sweet parents who I'm sure were then put in an equally easy place.

Glennon Doyle (10:14)

What you're talking about with the castle and the haunted house reminds me of the story where you were trying so desperately to figure out you were in the place in the Mormon faith where you had to choose either. Okay, so. So be a gay man. And if you do that, you will be disconnected from your entire family and community, not only in this life, but in for all eternity. So you had to decide that was your decision to make. And so you were grappling with that. And tell us about that time, that period where you were going to church, kind of doing your inventories and trying to like smell the devil out. Because that reminds me of the castle and the house where you were navigating all of that.

Amanda Doyle (10:56)

I had kind of told my parents in high school, sat them down and was like, I'm watching all the other boys love girls. And that's just not my Experience. I don't know what's happening. I don't know if I'm a late bloomer. At that point. I wasn't like, and I'm attracted to men. So I just left it there, put it on the table. And then they're like, okay, we'll see how things go after your mission. I went to Chile for two years, served a mission. That was great because I was still in this, like, suspended reality where my sexuality actually didn't matter so much until it was time to get married. Because that's the path. Come home from the mission, you get married in the temple, and that's like the next step. So that's when I couldn't be me and stay on the path. It started by just actually saying, okay, I think this is a part of who I.

Glennon Doyle (11:47)

This.

Amanda Doyle (11:47)

These were my words. Then I think this is like a for real part of who I am and not some phase or some feeling or tendency or whatever we wanted to call it back then. I think this is actually, like, kind of written into who I am. So that's when it started. But then the twist was I was like, I'm gay, but I'm not gonna be gay. You know, like, I'm gonna be.

Carson Tuller (12:09)

Turn it off. Like a light switch.

Amanda Doyle (12:13)

Great news. I'm actually not gonna be gay. I'm just gonna feel gay. Right.

Carson Tuller (12:24)

So good, Carson.

Amanda Doyle (12:25)

This was my way of being authentic, but also getting to be with my family in the next life, which is, like, always the big thing. It's kind of like this really special part of being Mormon is, like, this idea of an eternal family that happens under very specific conditions. And so we, like, sing songs about eternal families and living together forever, and which is complicated for several reasons, including, like, if you don't like your family.

Carson Tuller (12:51)

Yeah, that could be hell. Is this heaven or hell person?

Amanda Doyle (12:54)

Exactly, exactly.

Glennon Doyle (12:56)

The castle or the haunted house.

Amanda Doyle (12:58)

Right? What is this? Really? So sat them down, was like, okay, I'm gay, and my plan. But I said homosexual at the time. I'm homosexual. I have homosexual whatevers, and I'm going to stay a member of the church, and I think I'm going to try to marry a woman, because I think I could probably pull that off. What happened was you said, smell out the devil, I think is the phrase used, like, such a great way to describe that, because I was like, okay, I'm going to do this thing. I'm obeying God's commandments. You should know contextually that I was, like, a really good Mormon. I was not a Mormon. For fun. I was like, in it to women. It made its way into every single part of my life as I chose to be alone and started considering that I would have a life without a family. Possibly because after a while, that whole idea of marrying a woman just didn't seem sustainable or helpful or anything that I wanted. I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to just kind of self eliminate from the dating pool and from any kind of romantic relationships or sexuality, like all of this. And things started to get really dark. I was confused because I had learned from the scriptures that when you are on the right path that you reap the benefits, like the fruits of the spirit. Galatians 5, right?

Carson Tuller (14:24)

That's right. Galatians 5, yes.

Amanda Doyle (14:26)

And long suffering, right? But I'm not feeling any of this. So, like, some things up. And so I started very, very slowly introducing some new experiences and ideas. I even went to my bishop and I was like, look, I'm telling you, I'm going to go on a date with a dude. We're not going to do anything that would disqualify me from any of God's blessings and I'm going to feel it out. So I went on a date and I come back to church.

Glennon Doyle (14:57)

God bless you. You got your bishop's blessing and permission before your date. Oh, my gosh.

Amanda Doyle (15:06)

I kind of told him to be fair. I was like, what you gonna do about it? Because I'm not really breaking any rules.

Carson Tuller (15:10)

That's right. I'm just right.

Glennon Doyle (15:12)

I found the Mormon loophole and I am rushing through it.

Amanda Doyle (15:16)

Exactly. So then I went to church and I sat there and I was like, this is good. I feel bigger, like more expanded. The lights turned back on. And then I went on another date. I had my first kiss, right? Like all of these things. And then it was just like my life lit up and expanded and all of those fruits of, like, goodness and all of the things you look for showed up. And it was in direct contradiction. People were predicting I would, you know, like, come creeping into the chapel after having been with a man. And none of that happened. Like, I was more like Jesus than ever, you know, you're like Galation, Galatians, Sister.

Carson Tuller (16:00)

Crushing it.

Amanda Doyle (16:01)

Galatians. It was very deliberate. It was very deliberate. And just like piece by piece by piece to make sure, like, yeah, this is right.

Carson Tuller (16:08)

Beautiful, beautiful.

Amanda Doyle (16:11)

And then I told my parents and they were good. I don't ever remember them, like, shaming me or, you know, they were just kind of like, wanted me to be careful and cautious. And thoughtful about my decisions. And then they had to grapple with having an actual gay son, not just one in theory. And you know, and then they did that.

Glennon Doyle (16:32)

Did they remain in the Mormon Church? I'm always so interested in that. When you have a situation like that and your family remains part of an institution that does not believe in you, does that feel like a conditional acceptance of you? Or is it like each of you are radically accepting the other?

Amanda Doyle (16:52)

At first it felt like betrayal. I never thought, I thought I wouldn't talk to my parents again for a period of time. I was angry, like slamming fists on the table, fighting especially. There was a policy that came out. We called it the exclusion policy. It's now been rescinded, but it specifically targeted queer families inside of the church. When that came out was like when I had some serious huge blow ups. Now this was all very complicated because I was like, mom, dad, I'm gay and I can actually be gay. And then I broke my neck and then my parents were literally keeping me alive through this entire period of time. So there was kind of like this forced exposure which made things like very complicated. Foreign.

Glennon Doyle (17:49)

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Carson Tuller (20:13)

Tell us about that time. So you'd been living out your galation self for six months, feeling like the fruits were there. And then what happens?

Amanda Doyle (20:27)

And then it was December 30th. I had just decided that I was going to leave my pre med studies and just focus specifically on flute performance because that's what I was studying. And five days after Christmas my family decided to go to a trampoline park because I loved trampoline parks and I had tumbled all growing up, but I'm 65 and so now I can't play pull the same things on the floor. So I love to trampoline. So we went and got my wristband and like ran straight to the tumble track. It was just my favorite part of the park. And I bounced on it and got my bearings and went to the end of the pit and bounced in. And my plan was to pull like a tight triple front tuck cause you could just into the pit and I did, but I like sailed through the pit past the foam and then into the trampoline at the bottom where I hit ground and I hit the back of my head and I heard like a little like a little pop. It wasn't that painful actually. Felt like a tweak. The most powerful tweak of all time, this little tweak. And then I tried to move and just jump out of the pit and it was like, it was just silence. It was like I'd been unplugged. Like the vacuum. Like you're flipping the switch and it's just not happening. And I eventually realized I could kind of move an arm and so I put one of my arms up because my family had watched me tumble into the pit and so put my arm out. My dad came into the pit, and I said, dad, I think I am paralyzed. And he said, I know. And then all he said after that was like, my boy, my boy. And I was actually trying to console him. And I was like, dad, it's going to be okay.

Carson Tuller (22:30)

Wow.

Amanda Doyle (22:31)

We're going to see how this goes. I had a very poignant moment, actually, in that pit that I think is worth mentioning that I don't share often, and that is that when I realized I couldn't move, I was like, this is the thing. This is the thing you see in movies. This is that word like paralyzed. The worst thing that can happen to anyone. Like, we've all heard about it, right? What if that's this. Is this forever? Is that. You know, there's just, like, this panicky thing. And then it was like something like intercepted. And I had this, like, very clear thought that was, I have people who love me. I have people I love, and that's all I need. And then there was nothing but peace after that for a very, very long time until I, like, came home and started reintegrating myself. But it was a very peaceful situation because I felt just immediately like, okay, it's about love, and I don't need my legs to love. And so they got me on the helicopter, put me on the stretcher, sent me out, and I went and got two spinal fusions. And thus began my journey as a disabled person.

Carson Tuller (23:47)

So for a long time, you called that day your death day. So I imagine the peace that you had, that peace that we Bible people call the transcending all understanding, that peace that came to you from the God that passed. And then things got very, very hard, and you actually referred to that as your death day for a long time. And then your sister said something to you on June 16, 2018. Yeah, that changed things. What was that that your sister said to you?

Amanda Doyle (24:25)

We went on, like a little brother sister date to get pretzel bites at the strip Mall.

Glennon Doyle (24:30)

She's 13, right? Your sister's 13 at this time. She's your.

Amanda Doyle (24:33)

At the time. She's 13. Yes.

Glennon Doyle (24:35)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (24:36)

And we come home, and I can't remember why I referred to the day of my accident, and I called it the day of my death. Dark humor, jokingly, to elicit a response. And she said, what if we called that the day of your rebirth? I was like, no, we can't call it that. But as I drove home, it stuck with me. I was like, well, who's to say? Am I right? Is Kate Right. And over the course of, like, three hours, I literally had this powerful paradigm shift that ended in my realization that the only thing that happened to me was that the bones in my neck moved. They hit my spinal cord, and my body now works the way it does, the way it doesn't. No drama, no brokenness there. That's all that happened. And I have added all the rest. And so that left me with the realization that I can create the meaning around all of these events that I thought had some fixed meaning in them. And I left the gym that day saying, that's the day of my rebirth. That's the day of my rebirth. That's the day that the stars aligned and I became exactly who I was supposed to be. This is plan A. Is it true? No. Is it false? No. The day of my death, the day I was devastated, the day that I lost, I veered from the path I was destined to be on. Is as true as this is exactly where I'm supposed to be. This is my plan A. But living inside of either of those produces very different results and a very different way of being. And suddenly, when I claimed this as Plan A, I had access to whole new ways of being and acting that were unprecedented. I started going on dates. I started taking risks. I started telling people to carry me up the stairs. I started doing all of these things that I wasn't doing before because I was broken. I was this tragic hero. And it all changed just by changing the story or interpretation about the actual event and my body.

Glennon Doyle (27:14)

You had all of those years living inside of a religion that told you that you were irredeemably broken as a. As a gay person and having to decide that you were, in fact, not. That you were perfect and that was plan A for you?

Amanda Doyle (27:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (27:33)

Do you think that that process, over so many years, prepared you to. Even though Ableism says you're broken, to get to the point where you are so quick to see that this. That was just as much horseshit as the religion telling you you were broken.

Amanda Doyle (27:53)

Yes. It totally prepared me because the principles are the same. And if I were to describe them, I'd say coming out is about hearing yourself and then saying, that wasn't me. And I have now realized that wasn't me. This is who I am. And kind of this reclaiming of the self that requires listening to your knowing. Right. And so when I became paralyzed and suddenly I felt all of the same, like, it had the same texture, that feeling. Brokenness, unworthiness, no one will love me. It was a Variation on a theme, but it was the same thing, which is unworthiness. I was now prepared to, like you said, call bullshit. I know that my self. The self will never tell me I'm broken. That is always from something outside of me. And that knowledge alone had me be like, okay, so what is it? Where is it? And then I found it, and it turned out to be ableism, this idea that there are such things as good bodies and real bodies, and that disability is a broken version of a good body. But to answer your question, yeah, it prepared me because I was ready to, like, not believe those feelings because they'd betrayed me before.

Carson Tuller (29:27)

So you go from this heady understanding, this spiritual, heady understanding of your wholeness, but then you have to go into the, like, gladiator world of freaking dating and sex, which is where you test all your theories of, like, how. Where all the. The haunted house comes up. We can believe that we're whole, and. But then we have to go on a date.

Amanda Doyle (29:50)

Yeah.

Carson Tuller (29:51)

And. And we forget everything we know. So, like, how. Tell me about that first date, and then I'm dying to talk about sex with you because I just. I feel like the work you're doing in that area for people is so mind blowing. You said of yourself back then that you were thinking, no one's Prince Charming is in a wheelchair. In my mind, the best I could hope for was that someone would settle for me. How did you get out of that mindset and tell us about the beginning of dating for you, like, your first date after this?

Amanda Doyle (30:23)

Okay, first, I'm not sure I actually ever got out of that mindset. Before I started dating. It was kind of like, that's my fear, but that's not how I want to show up. So I'm going to do this anyway. This is something that I do a lot in my work as a coach and inside of kind of transformational education and things, is that I get to choose who to be in the face of my fears and stories and things like that. So that was really the process, was the moment where I was like, no one's gonna love me. And then I was like, okay, I'm not gonna take any action inside of that. I'm gonna take action inside of someone will love and adore me, even if I don't feel that way. So that's what I did. And it was terrifying, you know, because at some point, I'm gonna have to pee, and I have catheters in my backpack, and I'm gonna have to hope the restaurant is Accessible, or we might hit a space where I need to push, and I'm meeting this person for the first time and have to immediately engage in this intimate act of literal physical support. Right. And I just didn't know what to expect. I didn't know how people were going to respond to me. So it was really terrifying. And I had really come into dating with all of this, having watched in the media and heard all of these stories about when people get paralyzed, then people leave them or they want to die, or, you know, it's just always worst case scenario. And so I think that's why I came into it being like, people are just going to have to settle for this version of me. The first date itself was actually someone who knew it was my first date and I hadn't dated, like, in a year. So he knew, and he was like, I'm not asking you out, you know, because he knew I needed to, like. So I asked him out.

Carson Tuller (32:20)

Excellent.

Amanda Doyle (32:21)

Yeah. So he set it up, and then I was like, will you go on a date with me? And he was like, yes. And so he had, like, rented some, like, suburban thing and, like, helped me transfer into the front seat. We went to this Mexican restaurant and had a. A good time. But he. He made it particularly easy to just kind of have that first experience and love it. It was very sweet.

Carson Tuller (32:47)

Okay, and so now can we please talk about sex?

Amanda Doyle (32:49)

Because, yeah, I love talking about sex.

Carson Tuller (32:52)

Well, you have reading everything that you write and teach about sex. Okay. Just confirms what I feel like about how sex got ruined for me, which is, well, what we say on this pod over and over again, that the thing that screws us up most is the picture in our head of how it's supposed to be. So here you come to sex. There was no way for you to get sex ed. Well, no, by the way, there's no way for any of us to get sex ed. But for you in particular, you had to figure it all out out yourself. Nobody was talking about disabled queer sex. You had no models, no representation. So that sounds like bad news, but was that the best news ever? Because you weren't mimicking something that someone else was telling you to recreate in the bedroom, right? Is that sexual freedom? You say disabled sex is so much better than abled sex. Tell us why, Carson.

Amanda Doyle (33:46)

Can I give you just a little couple of things of context?

Carson Tuller (33:48)

You can do whatever you want forever.

Amanda Doyle (33:50)

Okay, so another important piece of information is I did. I have. Have never had sex as an abled person. I didn't have sex before So I didn't have ever, like a this is how sex is supposed to feel. Look, never did it because I was, again, such a good Mormon. And I have mixed feelings about that because sometimes I'm like, but maybe it would have been nice to feel this particular thing.

Glennon Doyle (34:21)

Right, Bishop? What I'm saying is.

Carson Tuller (34:26)

Just kind of so good.

Amanda Doyle (34:28)

Yeah. The other piece is that because I was such a good Mormon, also, I did not consume any pornography.

Carson Tuller (34:37)

Wow. Wow.

Glennon Doyle (34:39)

God, you're like a science experiment.

Amanda Doyle (34:42)

Yes, right. I isolated all these variables via mostly trauma, you know.

Glennon Doyle (34:53)

Sorry.

Carson Tuller (34:53)

Yeah. Okay, so it was trauma the other way, too. That's right. Too much sex, too young.

Glennon Doyle (34:58)

Also traumatic.

Amanda Doyle (34:59)

Exactly. I just didn't come in with any ideas of sex. So then I'm here in this body. I don't know what it does. I have heard it can, like, be very pleasurable, mostly from straight people who are like, oh, yeah, I could do these things with my nipples. I've changed these erogenous zones. And so it's like, okay, I've heard that there are some possibilities here, and I gotta figure this out. And so I would just kind of set up situations with people that I trusted where we could just kind of start trying things out. And it was just like this slow experimentation of starting very small, and with kissing and with touching and a lot of foreplay, esque kind of things. I started to have moments of like, oh, whoa. That felt very special. That was a treat. Let's go there. And slowly. I found all of these really incredible ways to experience pleasure and. And orgasm in ways that weren't available to me before. I did masturbate before my injury, like, a handful of times. Again, good Mormon. This was different. The orgasm was like, I could repeat it. It could be so powerful that I almost couldn't stand it. And I'd have to stop things. And my sexual partners would often say, this is basically like the. Kinda like, this is the best sex I've ever.

Carson Tuller (36:43)

Just say it. Just say it.

Amanda Doyle (36:45)

But it was.

Carson Tuller (36:46)

I'd be shouting, okay. So I'd be telling everyone, repeat. What Carson just said is, my sexual partners would always say, this is the best sex I've ever had. So just go ahead. I just want to make sure everyone got that.

Amanda Doyle (36:59)

And my hypothesis is it's because there were no rules, no expectations. It was truly just like, explore, discover. There wasn't like a. You're gonna come? Am I gonna come? Are we gonna, like, do it? Yeah, it wasn't that.

Carson Tuller (37:15)

No, absolutely.

Amanda Doyle (37:15)

It was just like, yeah, I think that's why? It was, like, fulfilling. And it also required a lot of communication because no one's gonna come into the bedroom with me unless they've done, like, extensive homework and be like, I know what to do to have Carson have a great experience here. Also, it's not always predictable. Now, for me, the trick that worked last time might not work this time, and I don't know why that is, but it requires this new level of communication. It just makes sense, right? Like, when I'm telling you what feels good and doesn't, I'm just going to get a better result and vice versa. Instead of, like, being like, oh, yeah, this is how I'm gonna go. And you're gonna make the sound when I do that. And we're gonna, like, perform together.

Carson Tuller (38:03)

I mean, Carson. Okay, I'm gonna say this, Abby. At one point, when we were trying to unlearn everything that we've learned and, like, acting and all the shit that you're saying that you. It's almost like erase. It's coming to sex with beginner's mind. Like the Buddhist beginner's mind. Right. But at one point, sweet Abby was like, honey, what are. What are all those noises you're making? Did you hear those somewhere? Like, did you have.

Glennon Doyle (38:29)

Is that When Harry Met Sally?

Carson Tuller (38:31)

Did you just memorize that shit?

Glennon Doyle (38:33)

I was like, I don't know.

Carson Tuller (38:34)

I just feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, I'm supposed to be making these noises.

Amanda Doyle (38:40)

Yeah.

Carson Tuller (38:41)

Oh, my God. It's just so beautiful the way you talk about it. If everybody could approach it that way with their partners, the way you talk about it, it's how every single one of us could have true sexual experiences.

Amanda Doyle (38:52)

And that's why I say abled people could. Could have so much better sex if they just, like, adopt this idea.

Carson Tuller (38:59)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (39:00)

But they had to drop some things, right? You have to drop, like, the, like, the. The role. Right. That might be comfortable for you. Because sex can be vulnerable when you're like, this feels good and this doesn't. So it requires a whole new level so you don't get to, like, hide behind your, like, Dom top mask, you know, You've got to, like, yes. Actually show up and be like, so this is actually what I want. And then it's like, whole new levels of connection, pleasure, and all of it's there.

Carson Tuller (39:32)

Carson, it's so freaking beautiful.

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Carson Tuller (41:45)

All right, I want to read part of the DM that you sent me.

Amanda Doyle (41:48)

Okay.

Carson Tuller (41:49)

You said I became paralyzed at 23 and I found that most of my suffering and sense of unworthiness was a product of ableism, not paralysis. I have become deeply committed to spreading the good anti ableist word since it's so rarely discussed even in the most progressive spaces. I believe that it is the link to freeing human beings in their bodies. Whether it's liberating people from the stigma of depression and anxiety or from the narrow definition we have of, quote, the good body. Carson, talk to us about what ableism is and how it causes suffering for all of us.

Amanda Doyle (42:30)

Yeah, I am just so grateful to be with you too. I'm just gonna say that one more time.

Carson Tuller (42:38)

Same.

Amanda Doyle (42:43)

There was a point where I was starting to get better at living in A wheelchair, and was still dealing with, like, really intense brokenness. And I told my mom, I said, I can survive being paralyzed. I can't survive feeling unlovable. And I think that captures my experience, which is like, being paralyzed. I'll speak for myself. And by the way, it's so important for everyone to know. People listening everywhere. Disability is a huge range of experiences. There are a lot of disabled people who don't experience grief in their bodies, who don't experience pain as a part of disability, who really feel totally at home and in love with their bodies as they are. And then some people experience a great amount of pain. Some people who acquire disability experience a lot of loss and grief. And so this is only my experience. And the experience is that I was dealing with the grief and the loss. But that started to kind of wane over time as grief and loss. Do you miss something? You long for something, but then, you know, two years later, it doesn't have the same frequency or the same intensity. And so I could deal with that pain. And slowly it became more natural for me to use my wheelchair and to push and do that first transfer in the morning. And I realized that the majority of my suffering, especially once I had kind of recovered after those two years, was all socially constructed. It was all about feeling like something was wrong with me. It didn't have to do with the fact that it was hard to transfer or that I have constant burning nerve pain that kind of just became part of life. But the brokenness piece, the ableism piece, is what caused this unnecessary suffering, because I just had the experience of not belonging, not being worthy of sex or intimacy or romance. So while I still experience pain that's specifically due to disability, and that is true, most of it still comes from some form of, I'm not good enough. Something's wrong with me. I don't belong in this world. And additionally, the world has not created space for me. I lived in New York for two years, and I literally left because, actually, because I was reading Untamed, and I realized that everything inside of me was like, New York has not earned disabled people. And I have to acknowledge the privilege that I have of being able to leave and having a family who could take me in for a short period of time and all of that. But New York is under, like, so many lawsuits about discrimination against disabled people. Because the subway system is only 20% accessible. It's the only way to get around. At the time, my boyfriend Ryan, we would just go to restaurant to restaurant and bounce around and go in and they'd be like, sorry, we don't have room for you. And I just go to another one, sorry. And we would sometimes just be there like at midnight, sitting there, feeling so rejected and out of place. Right. All of that is ableism.

Glennon Doyle (46:09)

That's right, yes.

Amanda Doyle (46:11)

Because we could have chosen to create a world that had space for all bodies on the spectrum, including the fact that even able bodied people become old. If you have the privilege of aging, you will likely get a disability. And we could create a world that is prepared for that whole journey, but we've decided to create it around the peak of ability. But it's arbitrary.

Carson Tuller (46:40)

It's arbitrary.

Amanda Doyle (46:42)

It's arbitrary. And it's all, it's all ableism.

Carson Tuller (46:44)

It's not the disability that causes the suffering, it's the ableism. It's not the queerness that causes suffering, it's the homophobia. It's not the blackness, the brownness, it's the racism. I love what you said that New York hasn't earned. That's how we felt about Florida. Florida has not earned our queerness. We're lucky enough to get the hell out of here. So we're getting.

Amanda Doyle (47:09)

It's like a boundary. Yes, yes.

Carson Tuller (47:11)

It's like a boundary that was so.

Glennon Doyle (47:14)

Profound to me when you said I was 10 times more paralyzed in New York City than in Utah. It just shows that it's the decisions that that place has made that tell you what you can do and can't do. It isn't your body that is setting up those parameters. It's the structural, systemic decisions that have been made and priorities and non priorities that have been established that make you ten times more disabled in New York City than in Utah.

Amanda Doyle (47:47)

Yeah, so perfectly said. What you just described is, is the difference between the medical model of disability and the social model. The medical model says disability lives in your body and lack of access lives in your body. And the social model says disability only exists in relationship to its environment. So if we have a fully accessible society, people are not functionally disabled.

Carson Tuller (48:14)

Well, because Carson, isn't that inherent in the word disabled? Like I am not able to do, I am only not able to do what the structure has set up for me to be able to do or not. Right, right, right.

Amanda Doyle (48:27)

And again, there's this caveat here because chronically ill people or people with mental illness would probably also. And it's so important to acknowledge there's some inherent suffering in certain pieces of disability that have nothing to do with the social model. They're just painful. But I think just the majority even of, like, the stigma around mental health and the stigma around it just compounds it all. And I just believe if we didn't stigmatize it and people could just exist as they are in their minds and their bodies, that they could flow in and out of that space with so much more ease.

Carson Tuller (49:08)

Yes. Yes.

Amanda Doyle (49:09)

Because you can talk about it.

Carson Tuller (49:10)

Carson, do you just love it when people call you an inspiration? Do you just love being. Do you just love being a target of inspiration porn? Let's talk it through.

Amanda Doyle (49:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Carson Tuller (49:22)

It's an important PSA for the world. It is.

Amanda Doyle (49:24)

It's so important. Yes. I have such strong feelings about inspiration porn, mostly because it's so insidious and it presents itself in such a feel good way that it, like, constantly slides under the radar, but it carries with it the most ableist messages. Stella Young coined the term. She was an Australian disabled activist. And inspiration porn is when disabled people's stories or bodies or activities are used by abled people to create a sense of inspiration or sometimes pity or the sense of, wow, that is so hard. If they can do it, I can do it. If their life sucks so bad, then I can deal with my moderately sucky life.

Carson Tuller (50:19)

It's so cringey. It's so cringe.

Amanda Doyle (50:22)

Sometimes people literally come up to me and say that in the flesh. They'll be like, I can't imagine. If I were you, I'd never get off the couch. My problems are half as bad. I can do anything if you can get out of the house, right? And I'm like, thank you so much and fuck you.

Carson Tuller (50:42)

Thank you and fuck you. Thank you and fuck you.

Amanda Doyle (50:45)

But also, sometimes I want to be like, bitch, my life is better than yours.

Carson Tuller (50:48)

Of course you do.

Amanda Doyle (50:49)

I have a beautiful life. This is sometimes what I have called the miscategorization of disabled suffering. Because people want to kind of categorize what they see as difficult or hard always to my body, instead of categorizing it as ableism or an ableist structure. So if I'm struggling at the gym, it's probably not because, like, my body. It's because, like, the piece of equipment that I have, there's, like, nothing at the gym that's made for me. But then people look at me and they go, his life is so hard, and he's such an inspiration. So it's just. It's always diminishing and it paints disabled lives as tragedies. You'll see this just everywhere. You'll see again in really progressive spaces. Sometimes Someone will post a meme and it's like a person in a wheelchair doing pull ups and it says, what's your excuse? Right? Or that kind of vibe. That's all inspiration porn. And the reason it's so insidious, again, is because it makes people feel like they're complimenting the strength of disabled people. But the truth is that in order to actually know what a disabled person is dealing with, you have to know that disabled person. You can't come up and assume that this is what's hard for me or this is what's painful for me. And I think abled people, because I did it too. When I was able. I would look at someone and think, like, oh, if I were in that situation, this is how I would feel. But that's just not accurate. You'd have to ask to really know. And it most likely wouldn't be appropriate.

Carson Tuller (52:24)

To ask in this community. So don't do that again.

Amanda Doyle (52:27)

Yeah, exactly.

Glennon Doyle (52:29)

What do. Well, meaning people get wrong? I heard you say that you do not appreciate when people first meet you, the first thing, dude, what happened to you? Where is the line? Because I think there's probably also the reverse where people are like, I'm not gonna acknowledge this part of your personhood because I don't see any of this.

Carson Tuller (52:50)

I don't see color, I don't see wheelchairs. I'm colorblind.

Glennon Doyle (52:54)

I am wheelblind. I don't reply any of it.

Amanda Doyle (52:59)

Yeah, yeah.

Glennon Doyle (53:00)

What do people do? Well, meaning that you're just like, please, y' all stop, stop doing it or start doing this.

Amanda Doyle (53:08)

I think people want to connect over. They see the disability as a, like a little bridge sometimes for connection or to be like, oh, I've also been through something very hard. You know, again, not knowing if, like, this is actually hard for me. Someone yesterday in the gym, a young guy was like, hey, I see you have like a scar, like a spinal fusion. What happened? Were you born? Just ask all the questions. And then later, he disclosed that he has dropped foot from an accident. And so sometimes people want to connect over that. And disabled people, I'll be honest, have different responses to this. Some people actually don't mind it and some people do. But anytime you are treating a disability as like a hard thing or a tragedy, it's a moment to stop and just say, what is this person presenting to me? I would just defer to the disabled person. Like, if this person wants to talk about their injury, then let's talk about it or their disability. But if it's Not a relevant part of the conversation. I wouldn't ask either of you, like, hey, so tell me the most intense piece of your medical history. Like out of the blue.

Carson Tuller (54:20)

At the gym?

Amanda Doyle (54:21)

Yes, at the gym. At the gym. It's just not relevant. You're like, so I'm here to work out and my name's X. Yeah, right. And that's usually what I do, is I just go, I'm here to work out. I'm Carson. How's your workout going?

Carson Tuller (54:33)

Interesting.

Amanda Doyle (54:34)

It's well intentioned, but it still treats me like I am a story. I am a thing that happened.

Carson Tuller (54:42)

Yeah, yeah. All of this work you're doing to free so many people, how does if it does internalized homophobia and ableism still live in you?

Amanda Doyle (54:57)

In lots of ways that I am currently really working on. I'm just going to say this feels vulnerable to talk about. So one of the things that I deal with and when I was preparing for our conversation, one of the things I was thinking about a lot was my struggle with masculinity as a disabled man and feeling just all sorts of things about it. Because I still have this pull to want to fit the role of a man, I think, because I've just assimilated those values. Because sometimes I do stop and I'm like, wait, what is a man anyway? You know, And I pause and kind of go there. But the first experience, like the first wave is like, I'm not a real man. I remember very clearly within the first year of my injury, I was sitting in the passenger seat of my mom's van. She was going into Walmart to pick up something. And I said, I didn't want to come, just didn't want to. At this point, I didn't have an accessible vehicle, so she would have to bring out the wheelchair. And I was just like, just go. And as she walked across the parking lot, I had an image, like, you know, those thoughts and fears of, like, what if something happened to my loved one? Like, I was like, what if my mom. I was like, I hope she's safe. It was dark. She's walking across the parking lot. And that is when I realized, like, if something happened to my mom right now, I would have to sit and watch. I could do nothing. And this is right on the heels of having. This is. I mean, and this isn't just like a man thing, right? Because, like, all of us have this impulse, I'm sure, to like, go and rescue someone or intervene or something. I could, like, yell or call someone and watch and that was the moment where I was like, what does it mean for me to be a man if I can't help the ones that I love who are closest to me? Or like, you can't see, but there's not a cover on this light bulb here because I can't reach it. Just taking care of things, being strong, being capable. So much of masculinity is about what your body can do, and I can't do a whole lot. And so I struggle with that. I struggle with that, and I struggle with that. In the context of dating queer men also, there's such a. And I don't want to speak in too broad terms, but my experience is that sexual prowess is important. Like what we were talking about earlier. Like, can you play the role? And we have names for the roles.

Carson Tuller (57:45)

Yes, we do.

Amanda Doyle (57:47)

And we ask each other what those roles are. It depends on what spaces you're in, but it happens pretty quickly. And if you ask any gay man, most of them will be able to tell you those roles. So that's also a place where I've got this internalized ableism and homophobia, where I want to be man enough. And I feel shame for even wanting that. And I just have to pause and be like, Carson, you picked this up.

Carson Tuller (58:11)

That's right.

Amanda Doyle (58:12)

From someone else. And then this is where I get to choose who to be, how to describe manhood or masculinity or also not. Because I'm also really being like, what does that even mean? And so often I don't want to experience that. Or like, I'll use he, him pronouns. And I'm like, is that right? Like, does that. Am I a he, him? Same.

Carson Tuller (58:38)

Same.

Glennon Doyle (58:40)

Yes.

Carson Tuller (58:41)

What is that? What is it?

Amanda Doyle (58:44)

Yeah, I don't know.

Carson Tuller (58:45)

I don't either.

Amanda Doyle (58:46)

I'm not. I'm just watching it.

Carson Tuller (58:48)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (58:51)

Same.

Carson Tuller (58:52)

That was so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Felt every word. Can you, Carson, give us a next right thing for our pod squad that is something that they could do to free themselves in the way that you have. And we're not saying you live in the castle because you're an honest human being, but you are frickin'. You're pretty Castle Y. What do we do to get a little freer from our body shit? Carson.

Amanda Doyle (59:31)

I would start by saying consider that you, your capital S, self, will never tell you that you're broken. It will never tell you something is wrong with your body, whether that's its shape or size or color or anything about it. Function. That is never coming from the self. So the next right thing that I could offer would be to listen for that voice that is the self. And I think that there are a lot of ways to do that. I think therapy can be really helpful. I think coaching can be really helpful. I think journaling, writing. But I want to convince everybody listening that there is a you that is present and always speaking. And there's, like, no greater task or more important task in this life than to know how to find that and hear it and then live consistently with it. And like I said, I think there are lots of ways to do that, but that has proven to be the most. Absolutely the most important thing I've ever done with my life.

Carson Tuller (61:03)

I mean, I love you, Carson.

Amanda Doyle (61:07)

I love you, too.

Carson Tuller (61:10)

I am going to put my phone number right here in the chat, and the next time you're in the haunted house, would you please just text me and tell me you're there and I'll remind you of the outside and then vice versa?

Amanda Doyle (61:27)

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Carson Tuller (61:31)

For all of you listening, I just hope that this conversation was as freeing for you as it was for me and comforting and all the things just feel like, what a guide. What a teacher. Thank you for being you, Carson.

Amanda Doyle (61:44)

Thank you so much for being you, both of you, and also for trusting me with your people, your loved ones. Means more to me than I can say. I'm just so grateful. I'm just so grateful.

Carson Tuller (62:03)

We are grateful, too, the rest of you. So, Sissy, did you want to say something? I'm sorry.

Glennon Doyle (62:08)

I just wanted to say that I'm still. I'm still back in the sex part of the conversation. I mean, I've been listening to everything.

Carson Tuller (62:19)

All right. It's all been really good since then.

Glennon Doyle (62:23)

But your capital S self is just very, very strong and courageous.

Carson Tuller (62:33)

Yes.

Glennon Doyle (62:34)

Because when you talk about just saying, like, this is what I want and this is what feels good and more of that and less of that, with no expectations, like, you're just in there saying the stuff. I mean, I'm going to be thinking.

Carson Tuller (62:47)

About that for a while. I mean, honestly, that's a little bit of inspiration porn. Come on, Carson.

Amanda Doyle (62:51)

I did.

Carson Tuller (62:52)

I didn't know how to respond in.

Glennon Doyle (62:54)

A way that wasn't, like, put that on an upworthy meme.

Carson Tuller (62:58)

All right.

Amanda Doyle (62:59)

Yeah. Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (63:03)

Because my brain can't even understand I know how to operationalize that, and I think it's so amazing. And you're absolutely right. Like, if every. Any kind of body that is listening could even do that one thing.

Carson Tuller (63:20)

This is what I like, have the.

Glennon Doyle (63:22)

Courage to identify and say and like, my God, how much life would change. It's amazing.

Carson Tuller (63:33)

We will meet you back here next week or tomorrow or whenever the next We Can Do Hard Things is okay. We love you so much. Thank you POD Squad. Talk soon. Bye Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much, much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman. This show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.