How to Stay In Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: How to Stay In Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

Release Date: October 16, 2025

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Overview

In this deeply heartfelt and often hilarious episode, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle talk with legendary performers Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody about the realities of sustaining love, partnership, activism, and creative energy over nearly five decades of marriage. The conversation meanders from the quirks of long-term commitment, aging, and parenting, to how Judaism influences their activism—especially their public stance on Gaza and Palestine. Brimming with vulnerability and wisdom, Mandy and Kathryn open up about the “brutalities of intimacy,” the art of staying connected, and the power—and limits—of memory and hope.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Aging, Creativity, and Kathryn's New Play

[06:12 - 10:25]

• Kathryn discusses her one-woman show, The Unexpected Third, a candid rumination on aging, optimism, and the transition into elderhood.
  • She critiques society’s discomfort with aging:
    “I've been pissed off about how this deals with age ... I hate, hate the term 'seniors'. I don't mind 'elder.' It has some dignity.” —Kathryn Grody [07:42]
  • Mandy champions her work and urges listeners to attend:
    “You will not be disappointed. It is beautiful, Becky. Be quiet.” —Mandy Patinkin [10:25]
• Kathryn shares a moving moment when a young woman told her, “My generation tells me unless I have my place, my person, my profession and my Botox account by 35, my life is over. And your play says that’s bullshit.” [09:29]

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2. Marriage, Messiness, and Repeated Arguments

[13:26 - 38:37]

• The couple’s dynamic is both hilarious and deeply human, as seen in their playful “arguments” about everything from sleep schedules to thrown-away newspaper clippings.
  • Kathryn: “You threw out my John Leonard columns. I've forgiven you.”
  • Mandy: “Clearly, honey, you haven't completely succeeded with that. You just brought it up on a national podcast.” [17:14–17:55]
• Repetitive marriage “issues” include:
  • Kathryn’s talkativeness vs. Mandy’s need for quiet.
    “I am very afraid of quiet… I like to share. I like to turn my mind inside out… but sometimes, I’m not sensitive to my companion’s desires of maybe wanting to say something—or just being confident in the quiet, which he’s much better at than me.” —Kathryn [28:10–29:00]
  • Mandy values “negative space”:
    “I love quiet. I have so much noise in my head all the time… And I just, I wish for peace in my brain.” —Mandy [29:25]
• The “practice” of love is central:
  • “Love isn't a race or a prize. It's a practice. It's something you choose and keep choosing.” —Co-host [25:26]
• Mutual commitment to listen and try:
  • “He can expand his ability to be a little more interactive with fellow humans, and I can work on not taking up so much space.” —Kathryn [38:37]

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3. Parenting and the Dog Analogy

[11:12 - 12:34]

• Kathryn shares a poignant story about finding meaning in raising children and caring for a dog, despite not being a “dog person”:
  • “I started and ended my day ... with little bags of dog poop, and I was so pissed off... Then [I saw my son help an elderly man]… and I thought, that’s what I’ve been doing. Raising decent human men.” —Kathryn [11:27–12:34]

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4. The Passage of Time, Memory, and Holding On

[47:54 - 57:24]

• Kathryn and the hosts discuss the urge to hold onto tangible objects, memories, and moments—what lies beneath “collecting” and struggles to let go.
  • Kathryn powerfully quotes her own play: “Don’t grow, don’t change. … the way this is, is perfect. But living things do grow. We are not bonsai plants… all suffering comes from us grasping, holding on to that which is impermanent.” [53:35–54:30]
• Mandy invokes spirituality and memory:
  • “If I’m ever not here ... just go to the wishing well or go to the water and I’ll be there.” —Mandy [55:50]
  • “As long as there’s one person on earth who remembers you, it isn’t over.” —Oscar Hammerstein, quoted by Mandy [58:25]

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5. Healing, Activism, and Jewish Values

[62:44 - 77:51]

• The couple’s activism is shaped deeply by their Jewish identity, particularly the principle of tikkun olam (repairing the world).
  • Kathryn: “You stand up for injustice wherever you see it. You practice common humanity. … Don’t use [antisemitism] as an excuse to commit heinous wars against humanity.” [64:29]
  • Mandy: “The bottom line is, people on either side who are running these two entities ... are not interested in creating a peaceful solution … find a friend and a partner and come up with more humanitarian solutions.” [69:01–72:03]
  • Kathryn calls for women leaders: “Let women run the world for just 200 years. We absolutely have a better ability to compromise.” [72:35]
  • Mandy concludes with an appeal to elders:
    “Use your voice. Use it twice, three times, thousands of times, for those who are not able to use their voice or too afraid. … Speak your heart and your mind. … The world is dependent on your voice.” [75:33–77:51]

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6. Human Connection in the Age of Content

[48:03 - 51:38]

• The hosts and guests joke about the safety of video conversations versus face-to-face meetings, and Mandy’s appreciation for “the back door—the escape” that Zoom provides.
• Kathryn and the hosts reflect on creating “authentic, non AI community” and “a kind of messy embrace of the messy human.” [46:09]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “They have, over the years, survived and thrived through the brutalities of intimacy.” —Host recalling Mandy/Kathryn [03:07]
• “I think it's interesting that if you're sitting around a table... and there's a pause. ...Why don’t you just wait?” —Mandy [34:00]
• “I love people. They are my passion, my interest, my curiosity. … the pandemic was extremely difficult, because it was the two of us and the trees.” —Kathryn [35:04]
• “All suffering comes from us grasping, holding onto that which is impermanent. … we are all impermanent, and we are future dust.” —Kathryn [54:30]
• “As long as there’s one person on earth who remembers you, it isn’t over.” —Oscar Hammerstein, quoted by Mandy [58:25]
• “You do what you can. You practice kindness. You stand up. This is what I was raised with as a kid.” —Kathryn [64:29]
• “If you want to connect with any entity that was made up of protons and neurons and energy, ... sound never dies. ... It travels.” —Mandy [57:24]
• “Let women run the world for just 200 years... We can help people come together because we are friggin genetic nurturers.” —Kathryn [72:35]
• “Use your speech. Don’t remain silent. The world is dependent on your voice.” —Mandy [77:51]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:12] Kathryn describes her new play on aging and optimism.
• [10:25] Kathryn shares impact on younger generations.
• [13:26] Insight into marriage, mutual support, and everyday challenges.
• [17:14] Humorous argument about thrown-away treasures.
• [28:10] Kathryn opens up about her “excessive speaking.”
• [29:25] Mandy on the value of “negative space” and quiet.
• [35:04] Kathryn reflects on loving people and surviving the pandemic.
• [53:35] Kathryn on holding on to impermanence and the suffering it brings.
• [55:50] Mandy on memory, rituals, and the enduring quality of love.
• [64:29] Kathryn on Jewish identity, tikkun olam, and global activism.
• [69:01] Mandy’s plea for peace in Israel and Palestine.
• [75:33] Mandy’s appeal to elders to “use your voice.”

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode is candid and emotionally rich, full of playful banter and loving ribbing between Mandy and Kathryn, but also raw, direct, and philosophical about the griefs, hopes, and imperatives of long life and love. Listeners will come away with practical wisdom on partnership (“no one is edited, everyone’s a mess”), aging (“we are not bonsai plants”), and making a difference (“the world is dependent on your voice”).

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Memorable Closing Words

• “Be here now as fully as you can, ... and live and breathe in this moment till it takes you to the next one.” —Kathryn [54:30]
• “Thank you for your love for each other, for your love for family, for your love for the planet, for your love for humanity. It comes through in every word that you say.” —Host [78:18]

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This summary captures the spirit and wisdom of the episode, offering heartfelt lessons for anyone braving love, aging, and action in a messy, beautiful world.

Transcript

[Host]

Mandy Patinkin is a Tony Award winning actor, singer and storyteller whose career spans four decades across stage, film and television. He's known of course, for unforgettable roles in Evita, Sunday in the Park With George, the Princess Bride, Homeland and Criminal Minds. He has toured the world with his solo concerts and collaborations with icons like Patti LuPone and Nathan Gunn. Since 2020, Mandy and his wife, fellow performing artist Catherine Grody, have offered a delightfully unvarnished glimpse into 45 years of marriage, sparking live shows with their son Gideon and a new Lemonada Media podcast, Don't Listen to Us. Katherine Grody is an Obie Award winning actor and writer whose work spans theater, film and television. She won Obies for Top Girls and the Marriage of Betty and Boo and earned a Drama Desk nomination for her one woman play, A Mom's Life. She has long been active in advocacy with groups including the International Rescue Committee and Downtown Women for Change. This fall she premieres her new one Woman show, a radical, rollicking rumination on the optimism of staying alive, exploring the transition into elderhood at 78 years young. These two what you are in store.

[Co-host]

They're the best.

[Host]

I mean, this hour, these two, obviously there's a reason they are two of the most beloved love bugs on the planet. But in this hour you get to feel it this like way that they have brought so much joy and commitment to their marriage, to their parenting and to their the planet. They talk about the arguments they have over and over again and what they really mean. They talk about what it actually means to love a dog or raise a child and how they're similarly the same. The terror and beauty of watching time pass so fast and trying to hold tight to it. And then how their Judaism has compelled them to show up in this moment on this planet. Exactly how we needed them to just snuggle in and listen to these two and allow them to heal your heart.

[Co-host]

They're marriage goals, goals, goals, goals.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

But what is so cool about them is they've been separated twice in their lives. Like so it's that it's just very credible. It, it feels, it feels like goals is like maybe that's attainable. It feels like they struggle and they're messy. And they were actually in our conversation kind of working some things out. You saw them be like, what I would like from you is, could you do that for me? It was very special to be a part of.

[Co-host]

Yeah, they're like still actively fighting for their marriage, their connection and their love, which at Their age. I'm just like, that's it's goals. Its goals.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

Exactly.

[Host]

Yeah. There's something that one of them said, not in this interview, different time. Where they said they have, over the years survived and thrived through the brutalities of intimacy.

[Catherine Grody]

Yes.

[Co-host]

So good.

[Host]

The brutal. It's brutal to be seen like they see each other. And it's also so beautiful.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

They said it's a daring thing to have weathered the brutalities of intimacy. It's a daring thing. It's an astonishing thing.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

They are daring and astonishing. I love them.

[Host]

Enjoy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hello.

[Co-host]

Hello.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hi.

[Host]

Well, hello. Catherine said you would be wearing your hiking shirt. Are you wearing.

[Catherine Grody]

Honey, did you hear what? Yeah, I said you'd be wearing your hiking shirt. Was I right?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yep. And open for a nice little sexy look.

[Host]

I'm already so delighted. I just can't handle this. You two can't understand how excited we've been to talk to you. You too. And the reason we're absolutely friggin delighted that you are launching a new podcast. And Catherine, we want to hear all about your play too, is because I know you're gonna say that this isn't right because you're always so humble about who you are, but. But you are exactly what the world needs right now. You are so human.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I told you this world is fucked up. That's why. Can I just interrupt this for a second? How do I turn off the ding every time? I can't remember.

[Catherine Grody]

I mean, nobody gets it. I don't get notifications, so don't text me. If it's urgent or timely, use the phone. The old fashioned vocal apparatus.

[Host]

You know, the old fashioned vocal apparatus. That is what a phone is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Tell them you call these things in your ears, honey. What? What? What? Tell them what you call the things that are in your ears.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

I.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, I didn't know that I was going to share my hearing accessories. Pink gold.

[Host]

Pink gold.

[Catherine Grody]

I waited six weeks to get the pink gold ones. They were prettier than the. You changed the name of them to Hearing Accessories?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, Hearing Accoutrements was the first one accouter.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

It's an upgrade. When you put it like that.

[Host]

Yes.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, as I say in my show, instead of a humiliation.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Are you doing a show, honey? What show are you doing? What show are you doing, hun?

[Catherine Grody]

Oh, no, just this little thing and Malvern, Pennsylvania, 20 minutes from Philly, near the Barnes Collection.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, I didn't know that. What's it called?

[Catherine Grody]

It's called the Unexpected Third. A radical rollicking rumination on the Optimism of staying alive.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Who's in it?

[Catherine Grody]

Me.

[Host]

Can you tell us a little bit about it? Yeah, tell us a little bit about.

[Catherine Grody]

Is Glennon. It's been a long time coming. I think I've been pissed off about how this deals with age, certainly since 50, and that was quite a while ago, you know, and I just couldn't stand the way people were disappeared or assumed about. You know, there was a point where before my hair became this color, which I do thank my husband, Mandy Patinkin, for encouraging me to do, because I was on my way to my nice vegetable hair dye person once, probably 15 years ago, and he was following me saying, you haven't seen it in the sun. You think it looks natural, you would hate it. And I'm saying, don't follow me. I'm not old enough to have white hair. Well, now I am. And I. Actually that's the one thing I like better, aesthetically speaking, is the color of his hair. So I've been pissed off about this topic for a long time and. Huh. Aging. Yes, honey, aging. And you know, all the things I do turn out to be things that I think people in the culture at large are experiencing, but nobody's really talking about it. Like Mom's life came from, you know how you always see if a guy has a snuggly, you know, and he's wearing. It's a front page of New York Times Magazine. But women, we're just like, oh, yeah, that's what they do do, you know, and it pissed me off. So I wrote A Mom's Life, you know, and then this show is just my. It's not a Hallmark card. This is some challenging period. And I thought I was going to be really exceptional and do it differently. And it was all just about your attitude and how you care for yourself. But shit happens, you know, that it's not quite in your control and it is stunning. And then you start losing people more often than you are used to. And it is just a sort of rumination on how you keep going and surprise yourself and don't stop. And that whole finished idea of being finished. I hate, hate the term seniors. It's like, been there, done that. I don't mind Elder. It has some dignity, it has some gravitas.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So that's part of my favorite thing, you know, I. I love, you know, look, let's just face it. We're. We're here to bang the drums. So people go see this thing at the People's Light playhouse in Malvern, Pennsylvania. Preview starts September 17th. Till October 26th. Get your ass.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, the extension, honey. Right now I'm supposed to go till October.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, no, no. October 26th is the extension, right?

[Catherine Grody]

Well, we're hoping it's.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, it will, it will, it will. Don't think that way. It will.

[Catherine Grody]

But also, we're supposed to be.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Here's the big thing. Tell them, Catherine.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, what?

[Mandy Patinkin]

When people came to see it in Rosendale, an early workshop, and people came to see it in other workshops, in fluorescent lit rooms, you know, where there was no set or anything. Tell them what young people had to say, because that knocked me out.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, no, you know, this was really moving to me. I knew people of a certain age would respond to this, you know, over 50. But what blew my mind, I'll never forget. I've been working on this thing for three years, 10 workshops. I mean, really, it's like clawing your way. But this young woman named Raya came up in Rosendale, New York. Upstate New York. And she was crying and she said, Kathryn, I'm 30 years old. My generation tells me, unless I have my place, my person, my profession and my botox account by 35, my life is over. And your place says that's bullshit. I was so moved. And, you know, I don't have a litmus test of how you age. I'm just saying it's not a shameful thing, it's not an inhuman thing. I don't want to stop the process. I don't want to think of it as a disease.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You know, look, obviously I'm prejudiced. This. She's written many pieces, she's performed them. I fell in love with her because she's an actress. That is just so truthful. But I promise you, if you drag your butt down there, I promise you, wife, 47 years or not, you will not be disappointed. It is beautiful, Becky. Be quiet.

[Catherine Grody]

Becky. We love Becky. Amanda. What's that? I'm glad you love Becky.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

I love Becky.

[Catherine Grody]

I do, too. I love Becky.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Come here, Becky.

[Catherine Grody]

We're the Becky baby.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

This idea, that doesn't surprise me because I love you.

[Catherine Grody]

Oh, Becky baby.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

You're such a good baby.

[Catherine Grody]

This is the nicest thing I've done for my husband, other than our two sons.

[Host]

Let him have a dog.

[Catherine Grody]

I'm not a dog person, guys, but here we are.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

But I feel like not dog people are just people who haven't had dogs yet, right?

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, I think you're actually right, Amanda, because we got two black labs at the same time. When our 42 year old was 12 and he needed a dog. My husband needed a dog. I said, okay, to make everybody happy. And I started. You know, I remember this one time, it was late at night, of course, I started and ended my day in New York City with little bags of dog poop. And I was so pissed off. And I was just like, this is not what I imagined, you know? And then it was very late at night, it was raining, and a cab stopped at the corner, and I heard some young guy say, sir, please make sure this man gets home okay. And I looked up at the corner and it was our older son Isaac, helping an elderly person into a cabin and saying, I hope make sure he gets home safe. And I remember thinking, okay, that's what I've been doing. It's not the dog poop. That's what I've been doing. I've been raising decent, decent human men. You know.

[Host]

You know, you two. It's so funny because we wanted to focus this talk about how to, throughout life, even when things get tough, sustain and maintain a loving, beautiful marriage relationship. And how when things get tough, to maintain your relationships with your children as parents, and then also with the world's commitment to your Judaism and healing the world has been so inspiring. And I feel like in the first 10 minutes of this, we didn't ask any questions, but you already showed us how that happens. Your support for each other, the play, Mandy, the way that you just focused on Catherine's. And then Catherine, you just were like, I don't like dogs, but I let him have a dog. Like the whole. And then the kid thing.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And can I give a real helpful thing to folks that are listening of all ages? You know, it's interesting, this thing about getting older. I find it fascinating. And I talked to some of my getting older friends, and I say, you know, there's no preparation for this. First of all, I believe that you should be. When you're 120, you should feel the same way you do when you're 19, 20, 21, 31, 41, 51. So all the way down the road, that's how you should feel. That's how all of us do feel every now and then, though some other parts of our body don't seem to agree with that particular sentiment. But, you know, to hell with them. We're moving on and we're getting new parts or we're finding ways around it. But there is a little thing. I woke up in the middle of the night for my, I don't know, third, fourth pee. And then I. I Had these terrible leg cramps, which I started getting, as I started getting older. And I thought this horrible. And I spoke to a nutritionist one day and I'm telling you this, I'm selling this product. I'm not. You got to get this product. It's a magnesium supplement. I went down, boiled some hot water, put a teaspoon of it in hot water, and I put it in the hot cup. Then you put cold water so it's not too hot. And I drank it and I forgot. I started forgetting to take it. It is a miracle drink. Get it. They sell it at all kinds of places. Everywhere you'd go, they got it. It's called calm. And you know, young people, you don't have that many cramps, but you should practice for when you get older.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

That's really, I feel like a very concrete, helpful thing. I thought you were going to give some advice.

[Mandy Patinkin]

This, I mean, it's just buy this. This shit works for me. And I don't know, I actually don't know if it calms you, but it certainly calms the leg cramps, makes them go away. And I, you know, and then, therefore, you know, you sleep better and it's great. And if you take it. Catherine often, she's away doing the play, so she. She often brings me the cup before I fall asleep. And so, you know, I'm not there to get my glass of water or my cup of coffee. You know, that's how it goes.

[Catherine Grody]

He goes to bed at 8 o' clock and I go to bed at 1 in the morning.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So 8 o' clock is late for me, honey, 8 o', clock, that's true.

[Catherine Grody]

Past 7 when I'm working away from home.

[Host]

So, Katherine, what do you do between 8:00 clock and 1:00am? This is a similar vibe to my parents. So I'm just wondering what. My dad goes to bed at like seven and then my mom goes to bed much later. What do you do during those?

[Catherine Grody]

I talk to friends that live on the west coast or I try and get people in South Africa or in England or I go through my piles of newspapers and try to cull them so my husband won't throw away what I want to keep. I keep explaining to him that newspaper and things like if you make collages or stuff, it's not going to be here. They're going to digitalize everything. They digitalize us. So I need to keep it. I go through those tiles in.

[Mandy Patinkin]

In your personal space?

[Host]

Yes.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So otherwise it's a recyclable item.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, that's right. I try and hide things that he won't throw away. I still remember I had kept. There was a wonderful columnist named John Leonard for the New York Times that I adored in my 30s. I even ended up going to a public celebration of him. And I didn't know him at all. I just loved his work. And I kept all his columns for, like 10 years in this striped bag in a shared closet. And my husband threw those out.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't think that's true.

[Catherine Grody]

Catherine, honey, that is true. You threw out my John Leonard columns. I've forgiven you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, no, no, no, no, honey, I think you are making things up. I think things mixed up. I did. I don't go in your closet and throw bags of stuff.

[Catherine Grody]

It wasn't in my closet. I didn't even have a closet then. It was in our bedroom. And you threw it out from a corner.

[Co-host]

Well.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, maybe it had been there for three or four or 15 years. Maybe it was a home for spiders and. And all kinds of creatures.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, well, see, here's an example. But we let it go. That is how we solve.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Clearly, honey, you haven't completely succeeded with that. You just brought it up on a national podcast.

[Host]

What did I do?

[Mandy Patinkin]

You just.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

I'm not gonna let it go. I'm sort of mad about it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you. That I just threw out something very precious to you.

[Catherine Grody]

No, but you just said that it was collecting dust and it was in.

[Mandy Patinkin]

A chair, and you just said you let it go. You didn't let it go.

[Catherine Grody]

That's true.

[Mandy Patinkin]

There you go.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

I have a question, because I'm wondering if this. Because I know, the newspaper issue.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

We'll just call it an issue. I don't know if it's a problem.

[Catherine Grody]

It's just an issue.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

Is a recurring. It rises and we deal with it on an ongoing basis.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

And from my understanding, another issue is. Used to be at least this, like, the anxiety over the passage of time. And I'm wondering, as you talk about, like, your play and getting older and even the need to hold on to the newspapers because they're going to be digitized. Like, is a lot of this about.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

That?

[Catherine Grody]

Well, as you can see in the background of my husband, we have all our vinyl collection. Yep.

[Host]

Right.

[Catherine Grody]

Which I love. And we never play one of those records.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Every now and then, Joan Baez comes.

[Catherine Grody]

On, and every now and then. I mean, our. Our house is like. Could be a museum of the 80s, you know, we have our CD players, which we don't use. We have our Cassettes, which nothing can get played on. We have our DVDs that I keep meaning to transfer. You know, it's just artifacts, including us.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But.

[Co-host]

But.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, it's a really. It's a really. I find it very challenging to.

[Co-host]

Honor.

[Catherine Grody]

What is valuable to me. I'm very sentimental, so I don't throw out anything. And I. That is part of.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Case in point. You bet your ass I am. You. You aren't kidding. She. She's missing a chip, and she didn't know to get rid of me, so.

[Catherine Grody]

I would never, ever, ever get rid of him. You know, it's always been so str. You know, we only understand 5% of the universe. This is a true thing. Right? So I'm always curious about what that 95% is that we don't know anything about. And I'll never forget, I was home from college in San Francisco, visiting home. I had two younger brothers watching tv. And I just passed them, you know, and came back because there was this commercial on. I don't usually watch commercials now or then, but I was just struck, and there was some young guy pretending to be a, like, 70s greaser, you know, at a soda shop. And I came and I said, who is that? Who's that kid? He's really good. And that kid turned out to be my future husband, Mandy Patinka.

[Co-host]

Oh, my gosh.

[Catherine Grody]

And.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And you can YouTube it. It's Teen angel from the 7up commercials in 1969, or 70 or 68, something like that.

[Catherine Grody]

And I. I was with. I. I knew one thing. I knew a few things. I was going to be in the theater. I was going to be a mom. I was never going to go out with an actor because one in the family is enough. And I. I wasn't totally wrong about that. But. But I was with.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, you were wrong. One in the family is not enough.

[Catherine Grody]

Okay. I. I was at Mandy's first professional show in New York, Trelawney of the Wells. I was with my boyfriend of two years, who is this great political guy named Michael Yule. He started Safe Return Amnesty for vets in Canada. He discovered. He outed Agent Orange.

[Mandy Patinkin]

He blew the whistle on Agent Orange.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, he did.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm thinking, who she's with before me? What on earth does she see in me?

[Catherine Grody]

He made me laugh. But I was sitting with Michael, and Mandy comes out in this show, and I say out loud, now, he's my type. What am I doing with you? I wouldn't usually say something like that, Glenn. And I might think it. I Said it. Which was so odd, because, you know, young actor, not me. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. But here we are. 47. 47.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, we're friends. We're friends with Michael Ewell, and I think most of her exes were at our wedding.

[Host]

Oh, my gosh. How did. What happened next? So you were like, that's my vibe, not you. And then how. What happened next? How did you guys make contact? What was the first dates like?

[Mandy Patinkin]

We have the rule. If you want to tell it, you tell it. We don't tell the same story twice, so.

[Catherine Grody]

Because he has his version, I have.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Mine, and mine's always wrong as far as she's concerned.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Catherine Grody]

I. You know, I thought I was hot stuff. I'd hit New York running, and I'd done several plays, and I was gonna go to Europe, and this playwright, Michael Weller, whose shows I had done, was doing a two week workshop at Ensemble Studio Theater and asked me to do it. And I said, no, no, no, I. I've worked so much, you know, I have to go see the real world, some shit like that. I don't know if I can say that. Anyway, and then he said, it's only for two weeks. I really want you to do it. And I said, well, who's in it? And he said, Chip Syen, Elaine Bromka, Mandy Patinket. Oh, that kid.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Danny Stern. Danny Stern.

[Catherine Grody]

Danny Stern, Yeah. And I agreed to do it. And. And I remember Michael coming out after one of the first rehearsals saying, so, what do you think? I said, oh, he's great. I love working with him. Oh, you mean for me personally? I said, no way, Michael. He's a baby. He's an actor. He's all crazy. No, no. The next person I'm with is going to be the father of my children. And he's not in it. He's not it. So that shows you how wrong.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So we're hoping soon we will meet the father of her children.

[Catherine Grody]

Wow.

[Mandy Patinkin]

All very excited to bring this person into our family fold. So far, it hasn't knocked on the door, but it could happen any day, and we're all very open to it.

[Host]

Well, I'm jealous of that person already. They get to join your family eventually.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

What a Gideon, Isaac, they did a great job.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Careful what you wish for.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, we are highly edited, as Gideon will say. You know, highly edited for all those people that, during the pandemic, wanted us to adopt them. It was like, well, this is one vision of us. You know, we are just like other families that drive each other crazy.

[Host]

And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to we can do hard things for free.

[Co-host]

Today's segment is brought to you by Bumble, the app committed to bringing people closer to love. We live in a culture that treats love like a finish line. You win if you get the relationship, the ring, the picture perfect story. Now listen, you know I love winning and I will make racing from the car into the grocery store into a game just so that I can win it. But the truth is love isn't a race or a prize. It's a practice. It's something you choose and keep choosing. The way I love you, Glennon, is by seeing who she is, what she does and respecting the hell out of that so much that I want to contribute as much as possible in our shared life. So she does the laundry in our house. Thank you. And I make sure to take off my socks before I toss them into the laundry and turn them inside out so that she doesn't. Isn't that the worst part of laundry? Having to turn things right side out. And I love her in the million tiny invisible ways. Choosing to give her more life back. Really. That's why I support Bumble's message to its members. It's not about one big moment. It's about the ongoing practice. Setting intentions, being honest about what you want and creating space for connection that feels real. Listen, you can win a race, but if you're running in the wrong direction, is it really a win? Bumble makes sure you are running in the right direction. Supporting you when with the tips in the right moment and a dedicated expert backed advice hub. So it's just designed to get you through every stage of your dating journey. Because love isn't a finish line, folks. It's a daily act of showing up for yourself and for someone else.

[Host]

Besides the holding on to things and letting go of things which seem. Which seems to be perhaps a thing for you all. What would you say? We have been taught by many therapists that every couple really only has three or four arguments that get repeated ad nauseam. If you're lucky for 50 years. Like you. What are your repetitive issues, arguments or.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Conflicts are much more prolific than three or four. Don't you?

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Host]

Of course you are.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

They're the creative types. So you know.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

But a lot of the fights they.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Revolve elves over again.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And they usually the root of the fight is. Is a very similar thing. Right. So it might be about moving the couch or it might be about whatever. But like really, it's about hearing each other. Control, power, whatever it is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, you go first.

[Catherine Grody]

Telling me. Okay, what I was going to say. You go first. It's interesting. I'm trying to think. Well, I think one of the issues we always deal with, I will tell you, is my excessive speaking, you know, is that I'm very afraid of quiet.

[Host]

Is raising her hand. Yes.

[Catherine Grody]

I gave my husband a birthday gift several years ago, and at the end of the day, I asked if he had noticed what it was, was. And he said yes, he loved it because I basically was mute for most of the day.

[Co-host]

That's literally Glennon's biggest dream.

[Catherine Grody]

Okay. I've just given you the, the gift of really helpful, you know, and I survived it, Abby. I mean, you know, I had like, I like to share. I, I sort of like to turn my mind inside out. And it's not necessarily consecutive connections, it's just, oh, did you read this article? And, oh, I heard this. And oh, do you know where we're supposed to go now? Or do you know who drove me nuts?

[Co-host]

Or.

[Catherine Grody]

And it's just sort of a rambling stream of consciousness thing that I enjoy sometimes to a greater degree than being sensitive to my companions desires of maybe wanting to say something or just being confident in the quiet, which he's much better at than me. Confident in the quiet.

[Host]

And how do you experience this, Mandy?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, I'm thinking about my beautiful cousin who we love, my Israeli cousin, Eyel Zucker, who was very, you know, worked hard, had different kinds of jobs. Then he went back to school to become a landscape architect. And I said to Eyal, toward the end of his studies, I said, what's the most interesting thing you learned in this course, you know, to learn this skill? He said, negative space. What you leave empty. And I love quiet. I have so much noise in my head all the time. Not literal noise. Noise that Mandy makes silently in his head. That's explosive. And I just, I wish for peace in my brain. I wish for quiet. There's a woman who, I don't remember her name. She's a doctor. A wonderful book called Quiet.

[Co-host]

Susan.

[Host]

Susan.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

So good.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's my favorite book. And talked about people who are introverts. So you wouldn't think that, you know, people who are in show business or public lives, you know, would be introverts. Yet I am. And the people that she points out are. And in the 30s and 40s and 20s, all the ivy League schools, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, they had courses to be outgoing, to be extroverted, etcetera that it was a bad thing if you didn't know this and you would fail in the course of life. And. And you can't get over the people that she talks about that were introverts and what they accomplished. And so I just wish for those who are quiet, those who are shy, for those who have trouble entering a conversation, that is one of your great gifts. Don't doubt yourself. I will say this, and it's not a criticism of my beloved. It is. It is a. It's a concern that I'm sure she's not the only one that deals with this. She's always been a much more social person than I was. She would have breakfast with somebody, then lunch with somebody, then a tea in the afternoon, go see a matinee, go see a play in the evening. Very active life. All the kids stuff, all the time. I could not keep up with her, you know, no one can keep up with. She's the ever ready, ever ready bunny of humanity. And I have noticed in the past, I don't know, eight to 10 years, but certainly the last five to seven, without a doubt since the pandemic, no question. A kind of hysteria about time. And I feel for her because I feel she's so afraid of losing anything and anyone and afraid of the clock and the sand finishing in the hourglass that she tries to pack in everything. Every podcast, every newspaper article, every book, everything that everyone says. I remember one time I said to her, you know, I held up the New York Times, I said, look at this. Isn't this an interesting thing? I said, you know, it doesn't talk. It doesn't talk. It's just a paper and I don't need someone to read it out loud to me, every word. And I wish, if I had one wish for my beloved, it would be that she would not feel that the clock is moving that fast. Honey, you may be one of those people, like Auntie Ida used to say, you should live to be a hum ridden swansig. 120. Like, what was Abraham's wife's name? Sarah. You know, because she was like 120 when she had Isaac, I believe her son's name. And. And that you have plenty of time and. And that you don't have to feel that, you know, you got to pack it in. And there's one other thing that I'd like to mention since we're. Because I. She won't listen to me unless I'm on. So you can't edit me. So this is. This. I I, I long for this. I like chocolate.

[Catherine Grody]

You got a couple of hours, guys.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So the other thing is, if we're sitting around with folks and, and, and there's a, there's a pause. She can't handle quiet and so she has to fill it as opposed to. I would say to her, and she's getting a little better at this. She is trying, she is improving, but I need her to work harder at it. There isn't that much because the sands are going through the argonauts and I want her to enjoy it and that it's so interesting. I think it's interesting that if you're sitting around a table with a bunch of people and you're the one talking and then it gets quiet. Why don't you just wait? And the person that hasn't said anything, maybe they'll talk and maybe they won't and maybe it'll be quiet until everyone leaves for some strange reason or maybe not. But you don't have to keep the talk going.

[Host]

What do you think about that, Kathryn?

[Catherine Grody]

Thank you.

[Host]

Thank you.

[Catherine Grody]

I'm so grateful to the three of you for this opportunity to hear that. I think he's really right and I have really been working hard. First of all, the slightly off thing is I love people. I love friggin people. They are my passion, my interest, my curiosity. I love all kinds of different people. And, and the pandemic was extremely difficult because it was the two of us and the trees, you know. And I don't even think we've begun to realize how that period has still impacted us and is in terms of how we deal with each other or if we're only comfortable on this space and not tactically, you know. But I really do know that that is an anxiety of mine. If there's a big quiet and I perceive someone to be uncomfortable, I try to feel uncomfortable without realizing I'm the one that's uncomfortable. So I think that is something I'm really working on. I really make sure I leave space for other people. My younger son's partner, when he first met her, she didn't say much when we were around and I was worried it was because of my exc.

[Co-host]

Talking.

[Catherine Grody]

And I asked her about it, she said, no, no, no, I don't feel that. And then explained what it was. So I am aware of it. But what I would say to my husband, who is much better with quiet, I also want to say there's nothing pejorative. I find when, when parents apologize for their kids saying, oh, they're shy. Like there's something wrong with that. Or it's a cry kid. That in the 20s, that Dale Carnegie book, we were a country of people with character. And he sold everybody on being a country of persa ality. So suddenly everybody was being taught to perform some. Some version of themselves that could get them somewhere else.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, I think that's how, like, we do.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, that's right, Tony. That's right.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

Well, you read the book.

[Catherine Grody]

You read the book.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I didn't read the book.

[Catherine Grody]

Me neither.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

I made so many friends and influenced so many people.

[Catherine Grody]

But I want to just say that my husband is totally right about quiet. I'm really working on it. I'll probably work on it till I stop being in this body, you know, But I am working on it. However, what I would like him to work on and acknowledge is. Is though he is great at enjoying just his. Thank you, honey. Take those notes. He forgets that he also sometimes enjoys being with people. And there have been many occasions where I've said, I'd like to have dinner with so and so. You can go. I don't want to. And I will say, you know, they're really nice. They're very nice. Or they're not in show business, or they're, you know, whatever. And I have to really push him. And then he's amazed that he had a really good time for a really nice time. So, I mean, this is a deal we could make on public with, you know.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'll do that for you, hon.

[Catherine Grody]

Okay. I mean, so we, you know, he can expand his ability to be a little more interactive with fellow humans, and I can work on not taking up so much space.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'll do one person a year.

[Host]

Perfect. You guys, this is so helpful to me because, yes, we have the exact same exact, exact same issue, and we are always talking about how to work on it. But I will tell you that, you know, I'm always saying, can we just be quiet? Can we just have a space? Because I'm always worried that a person who takes a little more time to speak needs some space to speak. And when you have kids, you think about that a lot. Like, you don't want the quietest person at the table to never get a minute to speak. But I will tell you that recently my mom was visiting, and Abby was out of town, and we were in a room together, and she was just staring at me, and I was like, shit, where's Abby? Like, oh, this is the service she provides me? Like, she talks. No, I have to. It is also a labor of love that when she's not there, I notice what a service it is to keep the conversation going.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I totally agree with you.

[Host]

Yeah, I know.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's a blessing and a curse at the same time.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But it really is a blessing. You get to listen, you get to rest. And you know, Sondheim wrote this great lyric. Careful the things you say Children will listen Careful the things you do Children will see and learn Children may not obey but children will listen Children will look to you for which way to turn to learn what to be careful before you say Listen to me and I really we are all children till it's over.

[Host]

And now it's time for our Ads.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

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[Co-host]

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[Mandy Patinkin]

Gift of of having a more talkative partner. I really mean this, honey. And is that is you get to listen and it comes out when I do interviews for whatever it is I have to, you know, be selling almost Every word out of my mouth is something that came out of Catherine's mouth, that she taught me, or out of my children's mouths. And almost everything I am, I would say I'm the most unoriginal human being I've ever.

[Catherine Grody]

I beg to disagree, but I want to say two things, because now I get to say something. I feel that the gift that Mandy gives when he is singing a song, acting a song, he has this new concert called Jukebox, which he's on tour for soon. And it just is an affirmation of the gift of being an alive human at any age. So he is doing that same thing, being up there, being this force. Do you know? And I think that the work you guys do on your podcast and the work we're hoping to do on Don't Listen to Us is, you know, there's this expression that Isaac came home when he was working in Ecuador. It's better in Spanish, which I can't do, but it's. There's nothing so bad. Good can't come from it. And in some ways, the horror of the isolation and with all the horrors of this technology, which are so many, and the struggle to be in charge of it and not have it be in charge of us. But you came up with this way of communicating and connecting with people, and that's what we're trying to do with Don't Listen to Us is create a kind of community, a kind of messy embrace of the messy human, you know, authentic non AI community of people that are struggling to make sense of the world in a time where it seems to make sense, utterly no sense, when it's frightening to ground each other, even if it's in this little rectangular thing, talk, have connections with each other across, you know, all ages and ideas. And, you know, do you only meet.

[Mandy Patinkin]

People in this forum, or do you also meet people in the room sitting next to you?

[Host]

Well, this is interesting that you ask. We just decided that we were going to meet people in the room, and then I freaked out and changed it and went back to this. So there is some. I am a writer, and so one of the things I'm most comfortable with is my ideas getting to people without my body being involved. Also, Mandy, I have heard you say that, or Catherine, maybe you said it about Mandy, that you deeply love humanity, but only a few specific human beings. I. I love humanity so deeply, I have always said, I will likely die for you, but I will not meet you for coffee. And I don't know what that's about, but I like the most comfortable right now. And also you guys, for me there's a, like, I want to keep real life a little bit separate.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[Host]

Then work life. And for my body and spirit, I have to maintain. It's like capitalism is everywhere. So now if I'm sitting on a couch with my friend and having a comp and it's filmed, I'm like, where's the line here?

[Catherine Grody]

You know what I mean?

[Mandy Patinkin]

You know, I'm thinking while you're saying all this, it also does eliminate a favorite thing of mine, which is the back door, the escape. And if you're sitting in the room and I go, well, we have to stop now. It's, you know what, did I say something wrong? Did I help you? Was I not interesting? And there's an uncomfortable moment and no. The answer is often like, no, I got another appointment. It's only for X amount of minutes and that's it. But when you're in the little boxes and the machine, it's already more, less personal. Not personal word, it's just, it's less of that. It's less trying to say it's. It's safer.

[Co-host]

It's yes, safer.

[Host]

I think in my life I want more and more real. That's why I love you guys so much. I want more and more real. I want more embodiment. I want but non monetized, non content.

[Catherine Grody]

Like current culture. Clannon just, you know, hey, let's hear it from Mondami. That's just my point of view. And I so wish somebody would be able to say, I wish he would. I think I just tried to write in some form. He probably won't get. You know, Franklin Delano Roosevelt came up with social friggin security. Right. What did I just do? I just did something and everybody got oh, I have there. Okay, I just did something on the machine. Perfect. Franklin Delano Roosevelt came up with Social Security. What American doesn't want that? And what did the forces of the right say? Oh, you're a socialist. That big boogie word. Anybody doesn't want their Social Security, let's take that. That word means many different things and it's practiced many different ways. And basically we need to be more generous in sharing our resources. Do you know? Yes, I don't think that should be a problem in the fact that business, business interests are all up in arms. Should just hopefully get him another 10,000 decent. All kinds of people saying, hey, we can do this together. We can be better humans, we can make our cities better in a humane way. Not in an insane, authoritarian way. Don't get me going, guys. You can just edit this if you need. Are you kidding? This is exactly what we do.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Honey, try to keep your hands off a computer.

[Catherine Grody]

I know I can't. Touched something and everybody went like this, banging the table.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I love it.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

She's having an internal earthquake and we're here for it.

[Catherine Grody]

My. My director, Timothy near, who was my idol in college, she was a couple years ahead of me, and she's directed all three of these solo shows I've done, and we're still working. Ten years ago, we were working on a piece called Falling Apart Together, and she looked at me, she said, kath, do you realize we're almost 70 and we're still working like dogs for no money? And now she's 80 in doing the stuff, and I'm almost there. But I was talking to her one day and she said, God, Kath, watch your hands. You almost poked my eye out. And I said, ooh, getting catchy in our old age, aren't we? And then a couple days later, I called her up and I said, tim, I apologize. I was talking and I almost poked my own eye out. That's a good idea, honey. If you had me sit on my hands at a dinner table, I probably wouldn't be able to speak.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you. I'll write that one down.

[Host]

Catherine, can you put into any words what this feeling is about holding on and time passing? So we were having a conversation recently where I was had this week, where I was obsessed with getting all of the children's names and things tattooed on my body and, like, messages from my parents tattooed on my. We're like, what? Where is this coming from? And it was like, you know, the Virginia Woolf thing of just life stands still. Life stands still. Like, how do I make this impermanent thing somehow permanent for myself? And I feel that so much from you is. Can you just. So many of us feel it. How does it feel?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Quote the line part. Don't not quote the line that you wrote for a mom's life.

[Catherine Grody]

This is so amazing, guys. He just.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I love you.

[Catherine Grody]

Telepathy. Telepathy. I. I was thinking of several things. One is, in that first plan, Mom's life, I say to my baby at one point, don't grow, don't change. Don't lose your baby teeth. Just stay as you are, perfect and small. And I'll stay this way, too. And neither of us will grow or change, because the way this is, is perfect. But living things do grow. We are not bonsai plants do, you know? And I think my brother was a Buddhist monk. And one of the things that I think is very true, all suffering comes from us grasping, holding on to that which is impermanent. And you can tattoo all your babies. I can keep all their little things they made when they were five, which they're just horrified by. But the truth is, we're all impermanent, and we are future dust. And I think the way we can hang on to the love the most is by being in the moment and not being so afraid of what's over and not being afraid of what's going to happen. But be here now as fully as you can, you know, and live and breathe in this moment till it takes you to the next one. And that's how we're fully, fully alive. You know, Real Keith has his poem. Hold beauty and terror in one hand. Let everything happen to you. No feeling is final, so that's, you know, hard to do, guys. I keep every freaking piece of shit. I picture my kids when I'm gone. Oh, my God, they're gonna have the worst fight of their lives. Because my older son is much better at letting go. He's just toss, share, let it go. Gideon's going to want to go through every drawer and find every secret and find everything. It'll just ruin them. So I have to do this before I'm gone, so that doesn't come true, you know. Oh, God.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I also just want to share. When she says these things, it triggers in me. I loved Warren Beatty's movie Heaven Can Wait. Whenever he, you know, go into the next person that he embodied, he'd fall into this well. So I said to Catherine, I want a wishing well. And she found one in the village from France. You know, the cement thing in the top and everything. And she bought it, and she had it shipped to our home. And it's a flower bed and everything, but it's beautiful. And I always told the boys when they were little, because I would. I'd take walks everywhere, all the time, every day. And I would stop where there's water on a bridge. And I say my prayers and my meditation, my wishes for the world and all people who are vulnerable and need extra, extra service from all of us. And I watch the water and I say the prayer, and I watch the water take them out. And I've always said to the boys, look, if I'm ever not here for any reason, just go to the wishing well or go to the water and I'll be there. I really mean it. Because my, you know, that. That higher power, in my view, and I was brought up as a conservative Jew in Chicago, blah, blah, blah, is Einstein's theory of relativity that energy never dies. So if you want to connect with any entity that was made up of protons and neurons and energy, it may not look like the four or five. How many of us?

[Catherine Grody]

Two.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Four or five? Five. Five of us are. But. But we're there in some way. Sound. My sound man taught me. He said, sound never dies. Like light. Light is millions of years away. And then it hits our eyes. Sound is the same. So when they put out those things in that Jody Foster movie and look at listening for sound, sound is the same. It travels. And so listen. Take a walk. Most of all, try to listen and see if you can hear your own thoughts. That's the toughest one. But. But it never dies. I believe it. I need to believe it. I say every person's name every day in my prayers, on my walks, in my meditation, before I walk in front of an audience or a camera or a microphone, because Oscar Hammerstein. And I've said this in everywhere I go. And it's. It's one of the best things I think I can offer anybody. He wrote in Carousel, of all things, a musical, this line, as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over. So I say their names. People who are acquaintances or, you know, just people I connected to. Some seriously, some just, you know, casual. But I bring them there and I put them right here so that when my moment comes, whenever, wherever I'm going, I won't be alone. And I don't want to be alone when I'm on stage or in front of a camera or talking to my kid about something important. And I believe, I deeply believe, I'm not a woo Woo person. But somebody would say, well, you ought to check yourself out again because you're sounding pretty woo woo. I don't give a fuck what I sound like. I'm telling you, this is my comfort.

[Catherine Grody]

And should. Why should embracing or being open to possibilities that haven't been proven materially, why should that be dismissed as woo woo? You know, it's just like, why should sharing resources be dismissed as, you know, that. I mean, you know, that whole mythology of the greatest thing that is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Say it again. What is it? What's the mythology? Say it again.

[Catherine Grody]

The mythology of individuals being the most important thing here as opposed to us working together. And that's what these podcasts do. And that's What? Don't listen to us, honey. We have to mention it a couple times because that's why we got invited to have this wonderful.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You know, Shakespeare in Hamlet, there are more things on heaven and earth. Hamlet says it to who did? George? Horatio. Hamlet says to Horatio, there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Therefore, as a stranger, give it welcome.

[Host]

And now it's time for our ads.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

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[Co-host]

Okay Peloton is shaping the future of fitness with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus powered by Peloton iq. So as you might imagine, I'm kind of particular about how I work out, so I have the hardest time running on my own nowadays. Got a hurt ankle, but in fact I just can't really do it anymore. And the new Peloton Plus Tread has been a game changer because I can mix things up and I definitely need that variety. The Tread plus has it all. It combines running, lifting, recovery, everything you want. It's been a game changer for me because I can't run hard on my foot right now because I have foot and ankle issues. But the tread is forgiving enough and gives me enough incline to get a solid sweat in. But what I love most is that the screen swivels and so it guides me through an awesome weight session after I get on the tread on that incline. It's really amazing, truly. And it also has my high schoolers used it a few times, so I don't know what that says, but I think it's probably a good thing. Seriously, I am stunned at how much I didn't know I needed this. Tread +Peloton IQ also builds me a personalized plan. Weekly classes that match my mood and my goals. Guided by the instructor, I connect with Most. And the swivel screen, like I said, it's just genius. You gotta check this thing out, you guys. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go Explore the new peloton cross training tread [e-mail].

[Host]

Can you all tell us a little bit? The world in our home and everyone we know has been deeply moved by the way that your Judaism has led you to speak out against the genocide in Palestine. What are you. Can you talk to us about how your Judaism informs the way that you're showing up in this moment?

[Catherine Grody]

Well, you know, Mandy, as he said, was raised as a conservative Jew. And his mom was so happy he found a Jewish girl, but she didn't know I was a Southern California Jewish girl. Which meant you celebrated Rosh Hashanah, Passover, Hanukkah, and practice social justice. And that was a very different notion than what Mandy grew up with. And my dad was a son of Russian Jewish immigrants. He landed on Normandy on D day.

[Host]

Wow.

[Catherine Grody]

He deeply, deeply believed in a democracy, being about civic responsibility and participation. He had a 30 year correspondence with Senator Alan Cranston. And my dad had no money. That was the really important thing. Letters, two page single type. About policy, no money. I recently found. And all my stuff. A little thing. A thank you Note from Eugene McCarthy for my dad, giving him a hundred bucks. That was a long time ago. A lot of money for my dad. So my. It's tikino lum. That means seal the world. Okay. And it means one person at a time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You.

[Catherine Grody]

You know the old starfish story with the kid cleaning up, throwing all the starfish and the dad saying, you can't possibly save all these starfish. What does it matter, Will? It matters to this one. You do what you can. You practice kindness. You stand up. This is what I was raised with as a kid. My dad was in that army for five years. Was in Germany. Was in places. You stand up for injustice wherever you see it. You practice common humanity. And it is excruciating to have to say that the word antisemitism is being bandied about. It's a serious thing. I do not want anyone to practice othering anybody because of their religion or their beliefs or the way they look or what they practice. But don't use that as an excuse to commit heinous wars against humanity. And it's excruciating. It's like watching a country commit suicide and go crazy and the entire world is wondering what has happened. Every time I hold a grandchild, I imagine being a Mother in Gaza or Ukraine, you know, or a Uyghur in China. I mean, you know, it is very easy to say, I can't deal with any of it, so I'm just going to upset myself. And I think we all need to have moments of the day where you focus on the joy and beauty acts of resistance, but examine our own lives. Examine if we're doing enough. Examine if we're using our voices, who we know in our neighborhoods, expand our social interaction with the people that maybe are not in our circles, that live in our communities, and just keep demonstrating, keep shouting. I mean, I was lucky enough to be in a generation. We stopped an unjust war. We did civil rights. We had the first Earth Day. We redefined what sex and marriage and family could be. Let's keep doing it, even though it is very, very profoundly sad and awful. But our species adapts sometimes too well. Maybe there's flowers growing in the burnt parts of la. I don't know what else to say. I'm talking to myself because I often just wake up weeping. And then I'll talk to man. He'll say, did you read the paper today? Or I'll tell him some horrible, horrible news, and he'll say, please don't start my day with that.

[Host]

Yeah, that sounds familiar. Yes.

[Catherine Grody]

You need to start with, okay, we're alive, we're well. What can we do today to love each other, to love our circle and to see. See what we can make better. Just a little bit Beautiful.

[Host]

There's flowers going in the. Growing in the burnt part of la. Should be the name of a poem. Well, really beautiful.

[Catherine Grody]

I mean, I was very touched to read about that. You know, fire people are seeing these and species of things they didn't even know were there originally. So we just have to not be afraid to speak up.

[Co-host]

And I just want to. I just want to say, Mandy and Catherine, you both have spoken up, and everybody's seen that the viral clip that went. That happened a couple weeks ago. Glennon. Her favorite movie of all time is the Princess Bride.

[Host]

And so it's just me. Just a weird.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

She's an oddity of hers.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And we just want to say that you saying what you said was really important and profound, and we are just so grateful to you for speaking up on behalf of all humanity and. And the people in Gaza and Palestine.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Catherine Grody]

You know.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I just wish for the horror and the. And the killing to stop. I can't bear it. Yeah, I can't bear it. On both sides. You can make lists of the atrocities that have taken place place over time. You know, from October 7th, every Jew needs me to say that 1200 people were killed on October 7th. 250 hostages were taken. Yes, that's not good. Yes, you need to return the hostages. But how many Palestinians have been killed over time? In what situations, in what circumstance? The bottom line is people on either side who are running these two entities, these countries, these caretakers of the humanity of these countries are not interested in creating a peaceful solution. They will not stop hating each other. They only want to annihilate each other. Both of them do. And when they say they don't have a partner in peace, they are covering up the fact that they don't have themselves as a partner in peace either. And until you're willing to sit down and create a possibility. Sunday in the park ended with my favorite words. So many possibilities. Until you're willing to create the possibility of people of unlike minds, religions, customs, history, ownership of land that no one can own. Until you're willing to address that in a humanitarian manner, to right the wrongs, to take it from not the wealth of history that you cannot correct, but from this moment forward, make it the best world possible for the unborn to come into. You can't ask yourselves to carry on with this burden on your souls from either side and your children. It's not livable.

[Catherine Grody]

And there are so many groups that have been struggling to address this. From a school with 45 Arab kids and 45 Jewish kids going to school together. It's called the Oasis of Peace Nevishalam. There is the barometer. Bereaved parents both who have lost people. There's breaking the silence.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I bring attention and fundraising to the Abraham. Now I forgot the orchard. The Orchard of Abraham, which when I was filming Homeland in Israel on two occasions. Beautiful organization of an Israeli woman and a Palestinian Arab man that started this school for preschoolers. And now it goes all the way through, through all the grades. You know, they, they. It's so beautiful. Palestinian and Israeli teachers, it's everything that you would wish. There are pockets where this takes place. But to annihilate the structures where people have. Have a roof over their head, where they. Not to. Not to allow food and medicine to come in, to take care of the innocent. You know, when, when, when. When you. When you turn to violence and war and revenge, you have lost. If that is your answer to a problem, you have lost.

[Catherine Grody]

Which is full.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Stop right there. Go back to the path. Take a walk. Find a friend and a partner and Come up with more humanitarian solutions and don't tell me and scream in my ear about what was done to my people. And what. And so what everybody says, what was done to my people? What was done to my people. You know, everybody's. Everybody gets bad things done to them. It's the history of the world. Why are we living here right now? Where are the Native Americans?

[Catherine Grody]

Okay, this is why the solution really is let women run the world for just 200 years. Because we absolutely have a better ability to compromise. We do not need excessive power and control. I'm not saying we're perfect. There certainly have been people. Thatcher wasn't, you know, my idol. But honestly, God, you know, really, really we can help people come together because we are friggin genetic nurturers is my bias. We can communicate. And that's just one of my solutions.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You know, sit in a room with a group of Native Americans from any group that whatever they're doing, you will feel the pain in their DNA. You will breathe it in. It doesn't ever go away. You can't do this to humanity. And if you want to be somebody else, stop being naive, Mandy. That's what life is. That's what war is. Learn a little bit about history. It's conquerors and winners. And they take the land and they take this and they take that and then it's theirs. At what cost? At what cost? And if you can live with that and ignore it for eternity, go right ahead, but I can't.

[Catherine Grody]

Guys, I am so moved by my husband because I'm a 60s person. He missed the 60s. He was doing milk commercials. I was, you know, in a state of shock. I mean, Vietnam. I took it personally because I went to college thinking we were the nicest country in the world and only did nice things. Right, right. That pissed me off very personally. When I met Mandy and we were talking about things, he said, I'm not political. Right. I asked, I asked him if his parents were Republicans or Democrats or, you know, working families socialists. And he said, they're road faizetians. And I said, oh, what's that? And it was the brotherhood and sisterhood of his temple. Okay, so not political. And right after that we on a bus and he is like 25 and I'm an ancient 31. And he sees an older person running for the bus just as it pulls away, you know, probably 20 years younger than me, but perceives as an older person. And he said, driver, driver, there's somebody trying to get the bus. And then he pulled the Cord to stop the bus. And I looked at him and I went, that's political. That is political. And.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I want to make a plea. May I interrupt, hon?

[Catherine Grody]

Yes, you may.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I want to make a plea to your elder listeners. If the younger listeners are concerned about the greatest privilege that they have in a democracy, which is the privilege to use your voice. And in this climate, if you're afraid of that because you might lose your job or your sponsors or your health care or your neighborhood standing or your home or anything or your life, if you're afraid, I can understand that, and I'm empathetic toward it. And we're seeing and hearing horrible things every minute, every day. But you elders out there, you people who know that you're elders, take up the slack. Do it for those who are too frightened to speak for whatever reasons. Some of them have good reasons. You've had a long life, you elders. If you have enough to take care of the roof on your head and a stipend to get by till it's over. And I know some don't, but some do. And those who do are the ones I'm talking to. Use your voice. Use it twice, three times, thousands of times. For those who are not able to use their voice or too afraid, I have nothing to lose. I've been given everything.

[Co-host]

More.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I've been given more than I ever imagined. My wife and two children and two grandchildren, first and foremost. But if my life was over this second, I've had a glorious existence, and I want to pay it back by using my voice and asking my fellow citizens globally, to please, use your speech. Speak your heart and your mind. Wherever you go, in your church, your school, your local dinners, to your kids at the table, use your speech. Don't remain silent. We need to hear you. The world is dependent on your voice.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, you, too.

[Host]

Thank you for that. Thank you. We adore you. No matter what you try to tell us, we will listen to you.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

You can't. You can't stop us.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, we might have to. We might have to steal from this conversation. For ours, anytime, please. Oh, my God.

[Host]

Thank you for your love for each other, for your love for family, for your love for the planet, for your love for humanity. It comes through in every word that you say. We're so grateful that we are here with you on this planet at this time.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, it's such an odd way to meet such lovely people. And maybe we could meet just this group in a small place and it wouldn't be frightening.

[Guest 1 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

He's like that's going to take up two years.

[Mandy Patinkin]

There's three of them, honey. And he said one.

[Catherine Grody]

Well, we. We didn't make that much progress, but it was.

[Host]

You know, let's keep trying, Katherine. Okay. Let's keep trying.

[Guest 2 (possibly a friend or collaborator)]

I am.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you for being you guys.

[Co-host]

Thank you so much. You both.

[Host]

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us. We can do hard Things on Instagram and we can do Hard things show on TikTok.