How to Stay Soft AND Strong: Our Virtual Event

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: How to Stay Soft AND Strong – Detailed Summary

Episode Release Date: July 3, 2025

Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle

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Introduction and Event Context [05:34 – 08:54]

The episode kicks off with Amanda Doyle welcoming listeners to a special virtual event celebrating the launch of their book, "We Can Do Hard Things." Reflecting on the book’s success, Amanda shares heartfelt gratitude towards their community, emphasizing that the book represents a collective wisdom movement away from traditional self-help paradigms.

Amanda Doyle [06:00]:
"We're just deeply, deeply grateful. I'm feeling that today. I'm feeling so much gratitude, honestly, that anybody is still listening to anything that I'm saying. Supposed to be exhausting."

She praises the ongoing support, highlighting the book’s consistent presence on bestseller lists and the positive feedback from readers engaging deeply with its content.

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Celebrating the Book Launch [08:34 – 11:29]

The conversation transitions to acknowledging the team behind the book’s publication. Amanda expresses immense appreciation for Dial Press, Whitney Frick, and other team members who played pivotal roles in bringing the book to fruition.

Amanda Doyle [07:34]:
"Thank you so much for doing life with us, for listening to the pod, for caring about the work we do."

The hosts then delve into the central theme of the book—addressing the complexity of life by categorizing problems into manageable segments, fostering a sense of community and shared experience.

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Listener Q&A: Building Trust and Forgiveness [09:31 – 16:20]

The heart of the episode features a listener-submitted question: "How do you build trust again once it's been lost? How do you forgive someone who has betrayed you?" The discussion reveals diverse perspectives:

• Amanda Doyle emphasizes the internal journey of regaining trust within oneself before addressing external relationships.

• Abby Wambach reflects on personal accountability and the importance of self-forgiveness as a foundation for healing.

Abby Wambach [15:56]:
"There is oftentimes a moment where I might have not said something, where I might not have been brave enough to come forward with my feelings... And so, yeah, I think forgiveness at the end of it... It's about the forgiveness of yourself."

• Glennon Doyle explores the concept of forgiveness as a directional, forward-moving process rather than a cyclical one tied to past grievances.

Amanda Doyle [15:56]:
"Forgiveness is directional. It's a decision to not in your mind and life be reaching backwards to something old... It's just a freedom of like, onward."

The discussion underscores that forgiveness often begins with self-compassion and recognizing one's own role in personal growth and healing.

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Stepparenting Challenges and Love [21:04 – 29:08]

A heartfelt segment unfolds as Carrie, a listener, shares her experiences as a stepmom navigating a blended family within a LGBTQ+ context. Amanda and Abby provide empathetic responses, acknowledging the unique struggles and emotional complexities involved.

Amanda Doyle [23:40]:
"With every bone in my body, know that Carrie's kids, even though it might be tricky and weird for some years, are the luckiest freaking kids on the Earth."

Abby reflects on her own journey with step-parenting, touching on insecurities and the deep love that underpins their blended family dynamics.

Abby Wambach [25:42]:
"I have shown up and it's been absolutely, by far the most rewarding and beautiful thing in the whole wide world."

This dialogue highlights the resilience and unconditional love required to foster strong, supportive relationships in blended families.

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Personal Growth Post-Cancer Diagnosis [29:06 – 33:41]

Listeners share personal stories about life-altering diagnoses and the ensuing transformations. One speaker discusses the impact of a cancer diagnosis on personal change, juxtaposing external expectations of sudden transformation with the reality of gradual, intentional growth.

Speaker [30:15]:
"I have started changing intentionally through small micro changes to try to chase my peace."

The conversation shifts to the notion that true change stems from a deliberate desire for improvement rather than external pressures, emphasizing self-awareness and intentionality in personal development.

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Managing Anxiety and Depression [37:10 – 43:31]

Claire, another listener, opens up about her experience with SSRIs and the challenges of transitioning to a state of stability and "being okay." The hosts discuss the complexities of mental health management, the stigma around being comfortable, and the continuous journey towards self-acceptance.

Amanda Doyle [38:15]:
"I am just a huge. Anybody who is feeling half human and who is struggling and who feels like they're depressed or is in a serious spiral of anxiety, like, you go to your doctor and you tell them what they need."

Abby and Amanda share personal anecdotes about their own mental health journeys, reinforcing the importance of seeking help and redefining one’s relationship with anxiety and depression.

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Rapid Fire: Personal Insights and Joys [43:05 – 47:50]

The hosts engage in a light-hearted rapid-fire segment, answering quick questions to reveal personal joys and coping mechanisms. Topics range from favorite foods to personal theme songs, providing a glimpse into the hosts' lives beyond their roles as authors and advocates.

Abby Wambach [43:27]:
"Banana pudding. I'm about to eat tonight."

Amanda Doyle [44:08]:
"I'm on this crazy new wellness plan that is called eating food. And it is making me so happy."

This segment adds warmth and relatability, showcasing the hosts' human side and their ways of finding joy amidst life's challenges.

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Closing Remarks and Community Appreciation [47:50 – 48:19]

In the closing moments, Amanda and Abby extend their gratitude to independent bookstores, librarians, and the broader community for their unwavering support. They reinforce the podcast's mission of tackling life's hard things collectively, fostering a sense of unity and mutual support.

Amanda Doyle [48:05]:
"We're grateful for everyone in the show."

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the podcast’s core message:

Amanda Doyle & Abby Wambach [48:19]:
"We can do hard things."

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Key Takeaways

• Self-Forgiveness: Healing begins with forgiving oneself, which paves the way for restoring trust in others.

• Collective Wisdom: Sharing and discussing personal struggles fosters a supportive community, making individual challenges feel less isolating.

• Resilience in Relationships: Navigating blended families and step-parenting requires immense love, patience, and adaptability.

• Intentional Change: Personal growth is a deliberate process, not necessarily triggered by external events but by an internal desire for peace and improvement.

• Mental Health Acceptance: Embracing stability and "being okay" is a valid and courageous step in mental health journeys.

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Notable Quotes

• Amanda Doyle [06:00]:
  "We're just deeply, deeply grateful."

• Abby Wambach [15:56]:
  "It's about the forgiveness of yourself."

• Amanda Doyle [15:56]:
  "Forgiveness is directional. It's a decision to not in your mind and life be reaching backwards to something old..."

• Amanda Doyle [23:40]:
  "With every bone in my body, know that Carrie's kids, even though it might be tricky and weird for some years, are the luckiest freaking kids on the Earth."

• Amanda Doyle [38:15]:
  "Anybody who is feeling half human and who is struggling and who feels like they're depressed or is in a serious spiral of anxiety, like, you go to your doctor and you tell them what they need."

---

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers a profound exploration of trust, forgiveness, personal growth, and the strength found in community support. Through candid conversations and shared experiences, the hosts and their guests illuminate pathways to navigating life’s inherent challenges with softness and strength.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. This episode is different and new and cool. So so this episode that we're about to give to you is actually from our book launch Day Live event in New York City, which feels like 700 years ago, but also yesterday. So it's been two months since we Can Do Hard Things. The book has been released into the world and it is out there living its best life. It has spent every week since then on the New York Times and indie bestseller lists. We're so Grateful to you. And it's a book we're proud of because it feels like a moment in which we can all admit that self help has failed us. And it is time for collective wisdom, which is what this book is. It's just the best advice and wisdom from the wisest, smartest life travelers we know and the gems that they have found along the way that is really lighting all of our paths. We're so grateful that you are out there reading and enjoying. And what do you think, babe?

[Abby Wambach]

Two things. First of all, I cannot believe how proud I feel to see all three of our names on the COVID I just want to say it. It's like something that really tickles me.

[Amanda Doyle]

Tickles.

[Abby Wambach]

And secondly, I don't know, you just never know how people are going to interact with it. So the fact that they're drawing in it, they're sending pictures to their friends of their favorite parts and passages and chapters, their meetings about it, they're over the moon. I mean, when we see people after the shows, it's just been an incredible community builder and incredibly rewarding. I mean, we spent a lot of time on this book, but I didn't know it would be this worth it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, and I love that. It's just, you know, you said all the wisdom from the smartest people we know. And this event that we recorded was with questions from the smartest people we know, which is the Pod Squad. So it was awesome for you to send in your questions. And there were some real stuff. And humdingers.

[Amanda Doyle]

There were some humdingers.

[Unknown]

I think we should call this episode the Stumpers and the Humdingers, because that's what you are, Pod Squad. And it was fun and beautiful and this was the virtual event that we did for folks who couldn't come out for some of the cities. And it was just a joy. It felt like a homecoming after doing, like, all that media that day. And then to come home and be like, now we're with family.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, we can relax on a couch. We were on a couch. It was like, yes, we are where we belong with our Pod Squad on our couch. This is what it is. So go get on your couch. Get your people. Listen up. We love you, Pod Squad.

[Unknown]

And eventually we'll release the video for this and you will be horrified and really gobsmacked humdingers. And, and, and gobsmacked ers because I inadvertently wore an outfit that was the exact same color as the couch. So I look a little naked. So we got that going for us.

[Amanda Doyle]

You are camouflaged. Okay, humdingers. Gobscam. Tickled. I don't know what's going on. Just listen. Love you. Bye. Five, four, three, two, one. Blast off.

[Abby Wambach]

Are we live?

[Amanda Doyle]

Are we live? It's happening.

[Abby Wambach]

It's happening.

[Amanda Doyle]

Are the people here? I don't. We will never know. I think they are because of the interwebs and the cloud. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Welcome them, honey.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things, a virtual event. I believe that the people watching are the most. My people. Because these are the people who are like, I would like to see you, but not if I have to leave my house.

[Unknown]

Yes, right. That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, so what's happening right now is that we are in New York City.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, we are.

[Amanda Doyle]

Today is the day that our new book, We Can Do Hard Things, is launched out into the world.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's really special. It's beautiful. And first of all, thank you so much for wanting to be here with us. Thank you so much for doing life with us, for listening to the pod, for caring about the work we do. I kind of feel like we're all doing this work together. It just has felt like a big collective conversation that we've been having, not just with each other, but with you. And we're just deeply, deeply grateful. I'm feeling that today. I'm feeling so much gratitude, honestly, that anybody is still listening to anything that I'm saying. Supposed to be exhausting.

[Unknown]

No, it's not.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's fun. It's really fun to listen to you.

[Abby Wambach]

And I get the privilege and honor to be around you, too, the most. And, I mean, we've been doing some press for this book announcement, and we're on the book tour. Being able to work with you both and listening to you every single day, I'm like. I pinch myself. I literally cannot believe that I get to do this with you both. You are the smartest, bravest, wisest. And honestly, like, this doesn't even feel like work in any way. I'm just like, so. You are also very pretty.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you. Thank you very much. Babe, you are. I think that you're pretty, too. All right. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Well, I hope you've enjoyed our programming.

[Amanda Doyle]

Before we get started. There's a lot of people in this room that have made this day and all of our work possible. I mean, so many people from Dial Press are here, and they have been our team, our partners in putting this book and all of our books out into the world, led by Whitney Frick, who basically just kind of picked me up off the street 20 years ago and was like, maybe you could be something and can you write down some words? And then we just have been together since then. And I'm so deeply grateful for her. Like, I don't think much of this happens without her. And then Valerie and Allison are in here, who really have just been in it with us. Allison, since we were born, I think, in Valerie for the last couple of years. And I'm just feeling how much it takes to do something like this. So many people work so hard, and I'm just grateful for everyone in the show.

[Abby Wambach]

And we can't forget Audrey and Andy.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, yes.

[Unknown]

Who are also really Big Bill and our audio producer for lo so many years here. Lauren's not here, but yeah, it's a big we. And we can do hard things, that's for sure. Debbie's here. It's just Sarah Michelle.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's just.

[Unknown]

It's a big, big, joyful family right now. I'm very thankful.

[Amanda Doyle]

So what we're gonna do is we're gonna jump in. We've been collecting questions from everybody who's here tonight. And so we're gonna jump in and just read your questions, talk about them. This whole book is just a bunch of spiraling questions. What we have learned is that life feels really complicated and chaotic, but actually all of our problems just boil down into like 20 categories of things. And we are all spiraling around, which is why when we share them with each other, it makes all of us feel less alone because we realize that we actually don't have problems. We just have a life. So we're going to do that.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. I think that we should hear from the people because they've written us amazing questions.

[Unknown]

We all know if they're amazing. We haven't seen them.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I know you are good.

[Unknown]

I know they're amazing.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're being embodied. We have not seen these questions so that we couldn't over prepare. So we'll see how that goes. Be yourself, they said. We'll see. Here's an easy one. We'll start with. Ready? How do you build trust again once it's been lost? How do you forgive someone who has betrayed you?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, no.

[Amanda Doyle]

What?

[Unknown]

I guess you're looking at me. I'm the obvious go to for. Oh, no. Both of us are. No, all of us, actually.

[Amanda Doyle]

All of us. Yes. Yeah. I can't wait for all the different perspectives.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Have you forgiven people who've betrayed you? I think maybe that's where we start.

[Unknown]

Is it forgive? How do you restore trust after it's.

[Amanda Doyle]

Been Lost after it's been lost.

[Unknown]

I mean, I think for me, I'm taking that question in a different way.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I don't know about how to restore trust between people after it's been lost. For me, the greatest. When I have felt betrayal, the greatest loss of trust that I have felt is trust with myself.

[Amanda Doyle]

Same.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, damn.

[Unknown]

Sorry. I'm glad I answered first, then.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, that means it's true. It's true all the way through.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Because you're wondering, how did I get myself here? How did I never see this coming? How can I ever trust the next relationship, the next job decision, the next whatever, if I can't trust myself to not land here again? So I don't know anything about restoring trust with people with whom you've lost it. So Godspeed, if that's your question, but I'm not answering that. Think you have to really get right with yourself and trust that when you are in a bad situation, you'll get yourself the hell out at the first instance.

[Abby Wambach]

Because there was a moment.

[Unknown]

Yeah. We all knew there was a moment. You look back and you're like, who.

[Amanda Doyle]

Could have saw it coming?

[Unknown]

And you're like everyone who is looking for it. But that's not to, like, berate you over it and to have compassion towards you and to be like, okay, little baby, this is how we got here. And it might happen again.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And the trust is that you will.

[Glennon Doyle]

Take care of yourself and you will.

[Unknown]

Be with yourself at every step, whether it's leaving or staying or being there for yourself if and when it happens again.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. You'll never leave you. Yeah. I just realized when you're talking that I think I have a completely different idea about this now than I've ever had. Ooh. Yeah. And I think it's real. I don't know if it's right or a good idea for anyone.

[Unknown]

Let's hear it.

[Abby Wambach]

We'll share it if it's wrong.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because you know how obsessed I've been with this forgiveness idea. Like, gender and forgiveness. I don't understand either one. I ask everyone, what the hell does it mean? I come from Christianity, where it was like, a forced thing. Like, you have to forgive or you're bad.

[Unknown]

Both gender and forgiveness were a forced thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I'm like, but what is it? So. Okay. I just realized I am no longer trying to forgive anyone ever again. That is not. It's. I don't. Doesn't make sense to me anymore. What I'm doing is Asking my body, do we forgive that person? My body will always tell me. My body is like, hell, no. My body is, like, around certain people, certain situations. And sometimes my body's like. And I'm like, I guess we have. But I'm not, like, asking my mind anymore. My body knows when I'm not safe. Like, I remember with my ex, the moment that I felt true softness or warmth was the moment we signed our divorce papers. And that is because my body was like, you know, we're not safe, and you are still showing up for this thing, so go ahead and restore the boundary for yourself, and then you'll be safe. Right? So I don't know. I don't think it's an idea I'm trying to reach for anymore. It's a embodiment I'm checking in for or not. And if my body feels clenchy or not trust, then I will trust it to know.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I'm in Amanda's camp, so I don't have to go too deep into it because it's very similar. But anytime that I feel like there was somebody who would require my forgiveness, I'm in a place in my life where getting responsible for my part in whatever happened, whatever transgression that I felt wronged about, I have some responsibility down the path. There is oftentimes a moment where I might have not said something, where I might not have been brave enough to come forward with my feelings, where I might have not been done the thing, the integral thing that would have created a different circumstance, a different outcome, and that's on me. A lot of the stuff that I think a lot about now in my sobriety is decisions that I made while drinking, things that I didn't say, feelings that I was having that I didn't express, cultivated certain things to happen and created certain ways in a relationship that were super unhealthy. And I think at the end of the day, I need to figure out how to. And I think I have at this point to forgive myself, because so much of what that was was informed by parts that were just surviving, that we're learning how to survive and just surviving in the environments. And I didn't have the language. I didn't know. I didn't have the therapy to be able to say the thing in the moment that just happened four months ago where I said the thing in the moment for the first time, and it was like, truly the first time to you. The first time I ever had my own back, like, truly. And so, yeah, I think forgiveness at the end of it. If you go deep enough and you go long enough and you stick with it. It's about the forgiveness of yourself, maybe for not being there and having your own back in the first moment.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, there's a whole chapter about forgiveness in the book, and I love that. The icon we chose for it is this beautiful picture of a woman who's just walking forward because it's really. At the end of the day, forgiveness is directional. It's a decision to not in your mind and life be reaching backwards to something old, to some person, some situation. And it's just a freedom of like, onward. It's directional.

[Unknown]

It is directional. One more thing on that, because I feel like forgiveness for me was the hardest in my first marriage because it went from my husband being my whole world to utterly disappearing over. And I mean, like, literally. So I didn't have anything left. The only thing left was like utter apathy. And that was the worst part. And so like, the only source of connection that I had if I couldn't have passionate love was like passionate disdain.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right?

[Unknown]

And so like, you're trying to keep any connection because a lack of connection is the most painful thing you can have to metabolize. And so I often think if you're struggling with forgiveness, is it possible that what you are struggling with is really accepting and grieving nothingness where something used to be? Because holding on to unforgiveness doesn't actually help you in any way. It eats up your energy and corrodes you from the inside. And so if you can accept what.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is.

[Unknown]

Sometimes the forgiveness comes. But you have to accept that there is nothingness there.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. I gotta talk to my therapist.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know. Write it down, babe.

[Abby Wambach]

That sucks.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're gonna take it to our next session.

[Glennon Doyle]

The 4th of July is almost here and you know what that means. It's time for the biggest fireworks show in the country. The Macy's fourth of July fireworks. This day honoring hard won independence over tyrants means more to me than ever. And this year's celebration is bigger and brighter than ever with an incredible lineup of performances and of course, a spectacular fireworks display that lights up the New York City skyline. I'm so excited to tune in. Macy's always brings the magic and I can't wait to see what they have in store this year.

[Unknown]

Catch it all.

[Glennon Doyle]

July 4th at 8pm Eastern. Streaming on Peacock and airing on NBC. So grab your favorite snacks, gather your crew and celebrate Independence Day with one of the best shows of the summer. Only from Macy's.

[Unknown]

Okay. I'm excited to tell you today about MIDI Health.

[Glennon Doyle]

If you have heard our menopause episodes, you know how passionate I feel about women having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives.

[Abby Wambach]

Lives.

[Glennon Doyle]

Here's the deal. If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause, log on to MIDI Health. I have done this.

[Unknown]

It is easy.

[Glennon Doyle]

In fact, I have recently been pursuing with MIDI Health hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body.

[Unknown]

They're clinicians.

[Glennon Doyle]

They meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. It's all through telehealth and 247 messaging and they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at join midi. That's joinmidi.com it's an interesting time for business.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, how do we parent, protect and prepare our children for a future that will be vastly different from ours? On a social tone, On a social, technological and environmental level, how do we raise the next generation to actually care and take care of each other?

[Unknown]

We show them how to be humans. I think we have to, as hard as it is. And if it's the only thing we do is just to stay human. Jessica Kantaritz, who is a friend of ours and a poet, she wrote something last week and one of the lines of her poem was it takes a spine of steel to hold all that softness.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, to that line.

[Unknown]

Yes. And I think she's so good. She's so good. I think that's. We need spines of steel to stay soft. Like, we really need to be able to say, I will look that suffering in the eye. I will not turn away. I will do. Because if we do that, we know.

[Glennon Doyle]

What to do next.

[Unknown]

It's not rocket science. We know how to handle this. The problem is we won't look at it because it's so painful. And so when we don't look at it, bad things happen when we look at it. And when we stay soft, the rest takes care of itself. We know what to do. And so I think we have to just teach our kids to be soft as steel.

[Amanda Doyle]

No. Soft as steel. That's so good.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

Anything to add?

[Abby Wambach]

Nope.

[Amanda Doyle]

Me neither.

[Abby Wambach]

That's something to live into because I nailed it. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Oh, this is a long one, but I'm going for it. My name is Carrie. Hi, Carrie. I am a well intentioned stepmom. Oh, a well intentioned.

[Unknown]

I already know she's a good stepmom.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because she didn't say, I'm a great stepmom.

[Unknown]

She said, I'm a well intentioned stepmom.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh. It gets better, though.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that feels like a hard thing. It is. I'm part of the gayest family. It's me and my wife who's the bio mom of our two kids, and we co parent with my wife's ex wife and her new wife, a bunch of lesbians. And I genuinely do feel really lucky because we all get along and manage pretty well. I love my wife and our kids, but it is so hard balancing a romantic relationship while being new to parenting and feeling insecure in my sense of belonging in my own family. Wow. I joke that it feels like being added to a group project halfway through the school year.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

But honestly, really, at times, being a stepmom can feel like its own really specific flavor of heartbreak. Oh, Carrie, I wish your kids could see that. Question. Go, go.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I feel that. And it's, you know, under the circumstances, I feel like you prepped our kids to absolutely be lovely and accept me and love me in a way. Like, they were polite and beautiful.

[Unknown]

Like they weren't, like, flicking you off and stuff.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, they do that now.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So, like, when I walked in the door, they were lovely, welcoming. Tish was a little bit tough.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And I think that as time has gone on, I have earned their respect and I've earned their love and I have shown up and it's been absolutely, by far the most rewarding and beautiful thing in the whole wide world. And yes, marriage is difficult with children navigating relationship with a spouse, and then your child is having a total meltdown. It's hard. Business and step parenting has it, I think, another layer of difficult because you're always wondering, do they think that I'm actually their parent? You're always wondering, do they love me like they love Glennon? I'll speak for myself. We all have different strengths, like you, me, and Craig. Like, as parents, we all have different strengths and weaknesses. And I do sometimes wonder, like, am I a parent to them, or am I just like, a person who's come in halfway through their school project, and this is just, like, what they get. This is, like, the only option.

[Amanda Doyle]

Do you really feel that way?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I mean, there are parts of me that think that sometimes, and it's not because of them. It's because of me and my insecurity. Right. But I listen very closely in moments, and I don't know if that goes away. Honestly, I don't know if that ever will go away. There's fear that there is no biological nature. And I do know that I am important to them. I do know that they love me. I do know that they see me as a parent. I know it for the most part of me. But there is parts of me that gets jealous of the way that they come to you for things. And I'm sure that you also have things that you're jealous of me about. I don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

We do. I mean, be honest about that. Like, every once in a while, we do the other day, like, Chase will FaceTime Abby, and I'll be like, did he try my phone?

[Abby Wambach]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Amanda Doyle]

Here we go.

[Unknown]

Now we're getting to the figure.

[Abby Wambach]

Chase's phone. On my phone, Chase has called me. Chase and Glennon are the ones that usually connect. He called me. And she comes over and she grabs the phone.

[Amanda Doyle]

Glennon is not the phone.

[Abby Wambach]

And she goes like this. And she's like this. And I was like, give that back to me. And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, well, yeah, I did do that.

[Abby Wambach]

So there's a little jealousy is what we're saying.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to figure out what I can say to get out of that one. And I can't think of anything right now. So this is a problem with live shows. I did do that. I did do that.

[Abby Wambach]

It's okay that you did that. I honor that part of you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Can you Check in your body and see if you forgive me.

[Abby Wambach]

No, I. Look, you and I, we have. There's a. There's a thing in all relationships, Carrie.

[Amanda Doyle]

We have a thing as well.

[Abby Wambach]

It is. It's true. And. And I don't think that that's wrong of you to be like, oh, my gosh, Like, I want to see Chase. Give me that phone.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, like, you weren't like, give me that phone. Why did he call you and not me? Like, you weren't like that. But there's parts of us.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

That have a little bit of envy and a little bit of, like, I want them to think that I'm their favorite parent. Like, that's just true. I want our kids to think that I'm awesome, too.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. You know, well, Carrie, I feel deeply amazed, and. I don't know, Carrie, so I'll just say about you, I have a feeling that Carrie is this exact same person. To live with that kind of tenuous claim and to still show up every single day with love and an open heart and service. I don't know why more people don't talk about step parenting as, like, an ultimate form of love. It's harder and trickier and more selfless than biological parenting. It just is. I've experienced both, and I can see it. So I just, with every bone in my body, know that Carrie's kids, even though it might be tricky and weird for some years, are the luckiest freaking kids on the Earth. All of these lesbians that love them, like, these poor kids are not gonna have a moment of peace.

[Abby Wambach]

I know. We're so in their business.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, Carrie, we love you. Okay. Okay. Amanda, what's one thing you chew? This is. Okay. What's one thing you changed in your life after your cancer diagnosis? I feel like I'm waiting for a big external force or maybe I just want to get hit by a bus. But, like, not a serious hit, just a little tap, a little love tap by a bus that would force me to make a change in my life. Did your diagnosis push you to make a change you'd previously put off or ignored?

[Unknown]

What is that person's name? Because are they living in my brain?

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't know. Okay.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Amanda Doyle]

Glennon. It's from Glennon. No, no, just check me.

[Unknown]

So, good news, bad news. The good news is you don't have to get hit by a bus, because if your experience was like my experience, then neither buses nor cancer, nor rain or sleet will get you to change yourself. So I, too, thought that I would.

[Glennon Doyle]

Have a radical change.

[Unknown]

And I did not for a long, long while. And it was really sad and scary for me because I thought that it would give me a radical change. And so I'm just here to tell you that I think I have started to change since then. Since I realized my cancer didn't take to get me to change. I have started changing intentionally through small micro changes to try to chase my peace. But I think that is the good news and the bad news is that at least in my experience, the like from the heavens descending upon you and like affecting your life like some kind of movie where suddenly you have some kind of clarity and knowing and new understanding where you're like less of the parts of you that you don't like didn't happen. So I think that's. It was really sad for me but also like incredibly liberating because there is no external force and indeed no force at all that gets you to change. It is not by force. It is by really wanting something more then you want to hold on to your old ways. And so I've been working towards that. So you don't have to worry about the bus, Just let them pass.

[Abby Wambach]

I have a follow up question for you because I think that this is really fascinating and important because so many people don't want to talk about it. I can imagine though that there's got to be and I'm just curious, do you want peace? Number one. And number two, I can imagine being diagnosed with cancer and going through what you've gone through and part of me be like, I'm not changing a fucking thing. I'm gonna fight this motherfucker, I'm gonna win and I'm gonna have the exact same life in a way as like a way to beat it. Was that part of your process? Cause I think like that might be a way that I might try to tackle it.

[Unknown]

I think that the way you're describing it is the way you were kind of dealing with the Trump administration. Like, yeah, this is come in here after all I fought for and take away my peace.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, Maybe that's just how I would deal with it, obviously.

[Unknown]

No, I don't think that I felt that way. I think I just felt like there was going to be some kind of divine light that hit me and illuminated this greater meaning and like evaporated all of the daily stuff that I struggle with. Because suddenly I would be like, ah, when you're faced with a potential mortality, you have a, you know, like in Spirited, right? That's, you know, the Elf Part two movie. It's like you're hoping you do the thing and then the world opens up to you and you no longer like have the same fights and get annoyed at the same people and be just petty as hell. But then lo and behold, I see still am all of those things because.

[Amanda Doyle]

You'Re not a quitter. Sissy.

[Unknown]

No, I will hold fat holding the line. Holding the line.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Unknown]

So no, I think in the absence of that, when I wasn't shifted dramatically during that time, I realized, oh, I have to shift myself. And so that's what I'm trying to do.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, nice.

[Glennon Doyle]

Liberty Lost is a new podcast about who gets to be a mother and control of young women hidden behind the veil of faith When Roe v. Wade was overturned, host TJ Raphael set out to do a story about maternity homes and adoption narrative pillars for anti abortion advocates. This started a three year reporting journey full of shock, frustration and revealed a story that's never been told. Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families shipped their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and forced them to secretly place their babies for adoption. And in hidden corners across America, it's still happening. At Liberty University, there is a secretive facility called the Liberty Godparent Home. The home says it will support unwed mothers, but in reality, many of the young women feel trapped inside a system that's forcing them to give up their children. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Liberty Lost early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.

[Amanda Doyle]

Plus.

[Abby Wambach]

Life is hard, but when it comes to sleep, that's hard too. Enter the Chilipad by Sleep Me Chilipad is a water based mattress topper that lets you customize your sleep temperature from a crisp 55 degrees Fahrenheit to a cozy 115 degrees Fahrenheit so you can finally fall asleep and wake up feeling refreshed. Chilipad funnels a thin layer of water underneath you as you sleep, achieving active and consistent temperature control. Plus, you can schedule automated temperature changes too. Visit www.sleep me hardthings to get your chili pad and save 20% off with code. Hard Things this special offer is available for we can do hard things listeners, and only for a limited time. Order it today with free shipping and try it out for 30 days. You can return it for free if you don't like it with their sleep trial. Visit www.sleep s l e e p.me hardthings to try Chilipad and finally make sleep the easiest thing you do. I'm always looking for small ways to upgrade my day and that's exactly what Masterclass has become for me. I can learn from the best minds out there in just a few minutes, whether it's in line at the coffee shop or winding down at night. I took James Clears class on building habits and wow. I mean, obviously he's a big time author. And one of the biggest takeaways I got is that you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. I've actually implemented a morning habit stack and I feel way more productive without burning out. With plans Starting at just $10 a build annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes from the world's best thinkers, creators and leaders. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] hardthings that's 15% [e-mail] hardthings masterclass.com hardthings.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Hi there. My name is Claire. I've been a longtime listener. I'm 30 and just started taking an SSRI a couple years ago. And it's been life changing. I've lived a life of high highs, low lows up until very recently. And at this time in my life, I'm feeling very confused because I'm doing okay.

[Unknown]

It's very dysregulating to suddenly be comfortable.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's Claire. I found the okay person. I knew there was one out there.

[Unknown]

She's not okay with being okay, it sounds like, which puts her strongly in.

[Amanda Doyle]

Our camp again, like I just had the most emotionally stable year of my life and I don't know, it's confusing. Oh, it feels a little bit scary or that something is wrong. And I know it's just because it's unfamiliar and I'm trying to resist the urge to give myself another problem. You know, like being on this treadmill of problem solving, being okay. What is all that about?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, I love.

[Unknown]

For those who don't know, SSRIs are medications that are usually it's like an anti anxiety or antidepressant situation.

[Abby Wambach]

Surgeon and reuptake.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh sweet Claire bear.

[Unknown]

So honest.

[Amanda Doyle]

I get it, Claire. I found myself usually before any sort of tour like this or media or anything, I just feel terrified. And so, I mean, you guys know, like just worry, worry, worry, worry, worry. And a couple weeks ago I realized I wasn't worrying and so that made me very worried. I told Abby, I'm like I am worried that I am not worrying and it's almost like you feel like you're holding the world together with your anxiety. And so if you let go of that anxiety, is that irresponsible? Like, that's kind of what I'm hearing from Claire. Like, if I let go of my death grip or my fear is that when shit's gonna hit the fan, right?

[Unknown]

Maybe.

[Amanda Doyle]

Jury's out, Claire. I don't know. I mean, I just feel so. I'm so grateful for antidepressants, honestly. I just feel like I was able to build a life and become fully human because of SSRIs, 100%. Like, I started taking them maybe 20, 25 years ago and just stopped taking them, actually, about a year ago, maybe. Is that right? A year ago?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. So I felt like when I was on them, I was on them so that I could have the full range of human experience, you know? And then I kept using them right up until when I thought that maybe I could have a fuller experience. Not on them. So I am just a huge. Anybody who is feeling half human and who is struggling and who feels like they're depressed or is in a serious spiral of anxiety, like, you go to your doctor and you tell them what they need. And if your doctor does not take you seriously, you go to another doctor, because you might have an experience like Claire, where suddenly you're like, oh, this is what everyone else has been experiencing, you know? So I don't know, Claire. Here's what I do know, is that when I told my friend Liz that I was gonna try to let go of control, she said, oh, that's so cute. Like, you never had control. How are you gonna let go of something you never had? All you have is the illusion of control. Like, you're letting go of the illusion. So, Claire, it's possible that all of your fear and worry and anxiety was never doing any good anyway. It was never doing any of the things that we thought it was doing. So what a beautiful thing, that she's letting it go, Being okay. What is that all about? What do you guys think it's all about? You think she's okay?

[Unknown]

I think what Claire is pointing out is, like, you know, how theoretically, if you're used to a certain way of growing up, and then you go to find a partner, and you're automatically attracted to something that is similar to that way. And so maybe there's a way where there's, like, a lot of drama or a lot of, like, high highs and low lows, the way Claire identified. And so you're used to this pattern of relationship, and you think like, well, that's what relationship is. That's what love is. It's high highs, the low lows. And then suddenly you get into a very insane relationship that is just like Steady Eddie, healthy, and you're just bored.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you're like, what's wrong with.

[Unknown]

And there isn't the high highs, and there isn't the low lows. And you're like, well, I'm buckled up. I'm ready for the roller coaster. Here we go. And it's like. And you're like, where's the part where my stomach goes? And where's the part where I think I'm gonna die? And then you're. You're worried you're bored, or you think there might be something wr because of that. And so this is an adjustment. If you think you're going on a roller coaster and you're going for a pleasure ride, it's a very different experience. So in some ways, it's. Are you okay with a little sweet little cruise?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And that might not. Because it doesn't have what the other thing has. Doesn't mean it's lacking what the other thing has. It might mean that it has something different that the other thing never had.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Unknown]

So if you can look, Claire, not at just the absence of the high highs and low lows and say, is that a problem that it doesn't have that. See, what. In your new experience, what that is bringing to you, do you value it? You know, and I think in the relationships, the same thing, you know, it's just a. So it's an adjustment when you're used to the roller coaster.

[Amanda Doyle]

Cool.

[Abby Wambach]

We have to wrap.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, no. Okay, we gotta do a few rapid fires.

[Abby Wambach]

We need to do the rapid fire questions. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're so unrapid. Whatever. The opposite.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, again, we said this before the show started. What does rapid mean?

[Amanda Doyle]

Fast. Abby wants us to understand that we're supposed to answer these fastly.

[Abby Wambach]

Great.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

All right.

[Amanda Doyle]

What is bringing you joy lately? Go. Oh, my God. Abby, go.

[Abby Wambach]

Banana pudding. I'm about to eat tonight.

[Amanda Doyle]

Are we having banana pudding?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I got you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Did you order me?

[Abby Wambach]

I got you sweet treat. I got you sweet treat.

[Amanda Doyle]

What did you get me?

[Abby Wambach]

Can't tell you. Surprise.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. It's a key lime pie. And I also got a New York cheesecake and some cupcakes that is bringing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Me big joy right now. Food. I'm on this crazy new wellness plan that is called eating food. And it is Making me so happy. It is really welcome. And also. What? The other thing that is bringing me joy lately is that I just rewatched the entire Girls series with Tish Go.

[Unknown]

What is bringing me joy is that I can decide what I'm going to think about.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, yes, good choice.

[Unknown]

That I don't just have to think about what I'm thinking about. That if something pops in my head and it scares me or it makes me feel ick, I can just say, oh, we're not going to do that today.

[Abby Wambach]

You can change the channel.

[Unknown]

I can say, I do. You don't have to disappear. I know that you deserve a place to live, but it's not gonna be.

[Amanda Doyle]

In my head right now. That's good. That's as rapid as we get.

[Abby Wambach]

Wait, we have more rapid questions.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, you made me feel like I had to go rapid. Er, no.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, you just gotta be rapid with your answers.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay? Okay. God, the pressure. How do you get to the quiet place so you can hear your true self?

[Abby Wambach]

Wait, is that a rapid question?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's what it says. Rapid fire. How do you get to the quiet place where you can hurt yourself?

[Abby Wambach]

I go for a walk.

[Unknown]

Okay, I. I don't do that.

[Abby Wambach]

That's actually probably more true.

[Amanda Doyle]

Sissy. I wonder what your true self is gonna say.

[Unknown]

No, I'm fine. I'm doing better than I ever have. Which doesn't mean I'm doing well. But I am here to report I'm doing better than I ever have.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love that.

[Abby Wambach]

What about you?

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. You know, I also. Walking is a big deal, too.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I just.

[Amanda Doyle]

I go for long walks and I don't put anything in my earballs when I go for a walk. That's what everyone's doing wrong.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't.

[Amanda Doyle]

You can't hear the inside if you got more stuff on the outside.

[Abby Wambach]

I put things in my earballs.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know you do. Okay, last rapid fire question. Oh, I'm so sad. I know. I loved this. Okay, what's your personal theme song right now?

[Abby Wambach]

Katie Gavin. The Baton.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know you were gonna take that one.

[Abby Wambach]

We love Katie Gavin. Go and download her thing. Her new album, the Baton.

[Amanda Doyle]

Inconsolable. Get out of town. Okay, well, you know my theme song. She's the lead singer of Muna Year has been Free by Florence and the Machine. There's just. Please listen to that song. I feel like that song is all of us in, like, one song. I really do. And there's these lines that it's like, is this what it's been? Is this what it's always been, to stand in the face of suffering and death and somehow still keep singing, which is what we're doing. And then she's like freaking out. And then at the end, she's like spinning in circles. And then the me part of it, kind of. And then she says, there's nothing else that I know how to do but to open up my arms and give it all to you. And that's how I feel about this community. When Abby knows, like, I'm in the bathroom, I'm like blow drying my hair and I'm just crying and I'm actually thinking about this community. That's all we know how to do. We're just gonna stand in the face of suffering and death and still keep singing. And we're just going to open up our arms and we're going to give it all to each other until we die.

[Abby Wambach]

Can you think of a song?

[Amanda Doyle]

Sorry, I'm not following that.

[Unknown]

That was beautiful.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. You don't know any songs? No.

[Glennon Doyle]

Also, I don't know any songs.

[Unknown]

I figured I don't have. Maybe it's because I can't listen to my internal voice. Maybe my internal voice has a lot to sing about.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Okay. Circle back next year.

[Amanda Doyle]

Music, that's a new thing.

[Unknown]

No, I love the music, but I don't know why on the spot I'm like, what are songs?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, no, I get it. Any artist. Is that your favorite now?

[Amanda Doyle]

She wants you to stop asking those questions.

[Unknown]

How come I've been able to answer all these hard things but you asked me for an artist?

[Abby Wambach]

What's the last song?

[Unknown]

And I'm.

[Abby Wambach]

What's the last musical event you went to? The most recent you went with John.

[Amanda Doyle]

So.

[Unknown]

Jason Isbell.

[Amanda Doyle]

Great.

[Unknown]

I really, actually, I really like his new album.

[Abby Wambach]

Here we are.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Great. There you go.

[Glennon Doyle]

Good job, babe.

[Amanda Doyle]

You got her there. It wasn't rapid, but we got there.

[Unknown]

I mean, I think it's the rapid thing that throws me off.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know, it makes me sweat too.

[Unknown]

But it's the men we are pushing me on.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, we gotta say goodbye to the people.

[Amanda Doyle]

We love you so much. We are so grateful to you for doing hard things with us for so long. Thank you for helping us celebrate our.

[Abby Wambach]

And they supported the indies.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Go Indies.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Thank you to all of the local.

[Unknown]

Independent bookstores that made this event possible. We are so grateful for you. We're grateful you are showing up in our communities and serving our communities and are there for us. And if we want you to exist, we need to support you.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Unknown]

That's how that works.

[Amanda Doyle]

God bless the independent bookstores and the librarians. They're the freaking disseminating information to kids, no matter who says they can't. And they are the heroes of our time. Okay, we love you. Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

We can do hard things.

[Amanda Doyle]

We can do hard things. Bye. If this podcast cast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.