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- [00:00]
Amanda Doyle
This is a message from sponsor Intuit. TurboTax Taxes was waiting and wondering and worrying if you were going to get any money back. Now Taxes is matching with the TurboTax expert who can do your taxes today. Who gives your taxes their undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real time updates on their progress and who will find you every deduction possible and file every form, every investment, Every everything with 100% accuracy, all so you can get the most money back guaranteed. Now this is Taxes get an Expert now on TurboTax.com, only available with TurboTax Live. Full service real time updates only in iOS mobile app. See guaranteed details@turbotax.com guarantees.
- [00:57]
Glennon Doyle
We have a very exciting trip coming up.
- [00:59]
Abby Wambach
Oh, I can't wait.
- [01:00]
Glennon Doyle
Pod Squad. We are going to stay in Park City in a big house with all of the people who we worked with to produce Andrew Gibson's documentary, which is called Come See Me in the Good Light. Okay, so we've been working on this documentary all year, and it's going to Sundance. Yay. Yay. And we all wanted to stay together. And so Abby and I found this big, beautiful house that all the. I mean, I think it's pretty much all lesbians. Mostly all lesbians. It's going to be a very gay, cozy house. We all want to have our own spaces, but we all want to feel connected.
- [01:35]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah.
- [01:35]
Glennon Doyle
So we went with Airbnb. If you're traveling with family or friends this winter like we are, consider an Airbnb. Those extra rooms and a full kitchen make all the difference. And if you're going solo, you can still find a place that feels like your own little sanctuary no matter where you are. So next time you're planning a winter getaway, give Airbnb a try. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. In the last episode, if you have not listened yet, we dove into anxiety culture with Dr. Martha Beck. And Martha walked us through why it is that the things we do to try to help ourselves feel safer actually make us feel less safe and take us into anxiety spirals that we can't get out of. And she taught us how to get out of anxiety spirals with actual real skills and tricks. Today, she's going to walk my sister Amanda, my wife Abby, and me through particular issues that bring each of us great anxiety. She's going to show you Pod Squad how to stop that anxiety in its tracks and how to move into a place of peace. And creativity, and it actually feels freaking works. Okay, so just sit down, listen up, watch Martha work her magic on us, and you're going to learn how to work this magic on yourself. Welcome Dr. Martha Beck. Martha, let's start with this. And then you are going to go into an exercise with each of us to coach us through and out of an anxiety spiral is how we're thinking about this. And I'm hoping it will serve the entire pod squad and that they'll be able to recreate it in their own lives. But can you first just quote to us what Irma Bombeck said about how she keeps airplanes in the air? Because I, if not, I have it written down. But do you know that she says.
- [03:53]
Dr. Martha Beck
People just falling asleep all around me while I alone am keeping the plane in the air by pulling upward on the arms of my seat? Yes. That is how we should live.
- [04:05]
Abby Wambach
Not.
- [04:06]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, so my beloved love bugs, pod squatters, you understand we are not the pilot. We are literally sitting in seats with no control, watching people around us rest, feeling mad at them because we believe that we are running the world through the slight pressure we're putting on our armrest. So Martha's going to show us how we too could be the people that just take naps when the plane is in the air. Amanda, would you like to start? Sure.
- [04:38]
Amanda Doyle
I love that quote because it just shows that a lot of anxiety is coming from a place of love and protection of people. I mean, we're not doing it to be the God in the sky. We're doing it because we really do believe that pulling up is keeping everyone on this plane safe. So it's just like all of that beautiful energy, but it's just going down the wrong tube.
- [05:03]
Dr. Martha Beck
Isn't that adorable that we really, really are trying to control the world so no one ever has to suffer again?
- [05:08]
Glennon Doyle
I know. And it's poison in a little bit, right? Martha? Like, one of the things I have thought about so much over the last year is that the thing that I'm doing to help my people is in fact hurting my people. Because when you're on a plane, actually, let's just stick with that metaphor, and you see someone gripping the handles, what does that do? It makes you, whether you like it or not, viscerally have a reaction of maybe I should be doing that too. Like, maybe she's on to something. Tish, one of my daughters, our daughters was going on a trip and I was dropping her off at her friend's house and I said, okay, just make sure, like when you're walking around the town.
- [05:47]
Dr. Martha Beck
Just.
- [05:47]
Glennon Doyle
Just, you know, keep your little voice inside your head that's like, watch out for danger, blah, blah, blah. And she goes, mom, I think you can officially rest that. The voice, that voice you have in your head is in my body. I am always doing that.
- [06:00]
Dr. Martha Beck
I love that.
- [06:01]
Amanda Doyle
But it's sad, Martha.
- [06:03]
Glennon Doyle
I did that to her.
- [06:04]
Dr. Martha Beck
Oh, that's okay.
- [06:05]
Glennon Doyle
Is it?
- [06:06]
Dr. Martha Beck
Because. Yeah. I mean, I remember when I was 13 and I read for the first time that the brain is fixed and rigid by the age of five. And I was like, fuck, I'm 13. And it's over for me. I'm 13. And then I retire. I know. And then, you know, like, three decades later, they figured out, ooh, oops. The brain is actually malleable and moving and rearranging itself all your life. So all you have to do is say, oh, let me fix the anxiety tendencies in my own brain. Then I'll be a touchstone for Tish about not only being calm, but getting there from the anxiety I gave to her. And you just have to live it in order for it to emanate out from you. You teach your own beliefs with every action, every choice, everything you say to anybody. So if you can calm your own anxiety and live in a place of joy and creativity and connection, which I truly believe we all can, the people around you are going to be affected very powerfully, no matter how old they are.
- [07:07]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, that's a good start. Okay, so there's so much hope it's not done by the time we're five. If you're 48, we can start right now. If you're listening in this moment to figure out how to emanate calm and peace instead of terror. Sister, would you like to start? Sure.
- [07:26]
Amanda Doyle
It's a good segue. Segue, Segue.
- [07:29]
Dr. Martha Beck
Let's do a segue.
- [07:30]
Glennon Doyle
So, Martha, what do you need to know from her to get started on this journey?
- [07:34]
Amanda Doyle
Or do you already know enough? You should just do me without.
- [07:40]
Dr. Martha Beck
Stop being anxious or I'll bury you alive in a box. Have you seen that Bob Newhart thing?
- [07:45]
Glennon Doyle
No.
- [07:46]
Dr. Martha Beck
Woman goes to a psychiatrist and she have this terrible, terrible fear of being buried alive in a box. And he says, okay, I'll give you my cure.
- [07:55]
Glennon Doyle
Stop it.
- [07:56]
Dr. Martha Beck
Stop it or I'll bury you alive in a box. Which is kind of what we do to ourselves anyway. All I need to know is, like, on a scale from 1 to 10, how anxious are you feeling today?
- [08:07]
Amanda Doyle
I am not feeling anxious today. Talking to y'all makes me not feel anxious. Maybe a two or three today, then.
- [08:15]
Dr. Martha Beck
My work here is done. Abby, let's go to.
- [08:18]
Amanda Doyle
No, but as soon as we stop recording. As soon as we stop recording, then we're right back up.
- [08:24]
Glennon Doyle
Is that true?
- [08:25]
Dr. Martha Beck
All right, so what has made you feel anxious today? Earlier in the. Before we started recording?
- [08:31]
Amanda Doyle
I mean, this week, I'm splashing around in a little pool that I thought that I had made a bunch of progress with. So I'm kind of revisiting in a way. But I have always had, like, a kind of existential anxiety about my daughter not having a sister. And because of just, like, the permanence of that, the kind of, like, your whole life, you know? You know, even if you weren't to be, like, best friends with your sister, you know, like, that's a constant. That's a touch tree. That's like a sure forever there. And I don't know what it's like to. Not especially. She's about to get in, like, middle school times, and it's like, so how do you know who your person is if your person changes? If it's just, like, a flow of people? I feel very fearful about it, and I don't know how to navigate that with her. So I have, like, a big. And something happened last week where I. I see some dynamics, and it gets triggered up, and I don't know how much I should do versus not do versus just let happen.
- [09:47]
Dr. Martha Beck
Well, first of all, we need to not only just let things happen, but let's go inside your brain and find a calm, creative place where you can address the issues that you're afraid of. So to boil down this fear, what I'm hearing is this. And tell me where I'm wrong. It feels to me like you had a sister who she was your person and still is in many ways, and having her was an absolute lifeline for you pretty much your whole life. Tell me where I'm wrong.
- [10:18]
Amanda Doyle
No. Correct.
- [10:19]
Dr. Martha Beck
All right, so you then define an emotional lifeline as a sister. So everybody has to have a sister the way you had Glennon as a sister. Tell me where I'm wrong.
- [10:33]
Amanda Doyle
Yes. It just kind of feels like a sheltering place from what I know what's coming of. Like, it would kind of friend disappointments or friend betrayals or abandonments. Just feel like there's no shelter around that because that's. You're just out in an open field taking those hits. That's how it feels.
- [10:57]
Dr. Martha Beck
All right, so sanctuary, safety, protection from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that security for you came from a sister. True?
- [11:07]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [11:08]
Dr. Martha Beck
Okay, so then you have defined those feelings. Sanctuary, protection, love, a person to go to, a person who understands you as sister. But I know many, many people who are terrified of their sisters. They're terrible sisters. Do you have brothers?
- [11:28]
Amanda Doyle
No.
- [11:29]
Dr. Martha Beck
I know a brother, sister pair who, like, could not live without each other. They're both married, everything. It's a very healthy, normal relationship. But they grew up way out in the wilderness together. They're both brilliant. And the sister can only say, I cannot stand to think of people who don't have a brother, because her brother was that for her and she was that for him. But I've known people whose greatest fears and most devastating traumas came directly from their sisters. So sister is not necessarily the same as sanctuary. So what you're really saying. What's your daughter's name?
- [12:08]
Amanda Doyle
Alice.
- [12:10]
Dr. Martha Beck
So could we say that your real fear is that Alice has no sanctuary? Alice has no person. Alice has no protection from slings and arrows. Alice is all alone out there. Is that the biggest fear? Yes, because she doesn't have Glennon. This is actually really specific. Does she not have Glennon?
- [12:37]
Glennon Doyle
She sent me a pitch to be on the podcast last week. She definitely has me.
- [12:41]
Dr. Martha Beck
Good segue there. Segue. See last episode. And Alice also has you, Amanda, whom Glennon calls sister in her books. You are that source of safety and protection. It's not the sisterness of you. It's what you are. And Alice has you. She has Glennon. She has Abby. She will find other people in the same vein because she has been given the example of this patterning of choose people like these, not horrible, backstabbing people, which is what people choose when their sisters have been backstabby to them. Am I making any headway here?
- [13:21]
Amanda Doyle
Yes. Yes.
- [13:23]
Dr. Martha Beck
Okay. So, yes, this is the calming part of addressing an anxiety. You just gently talk sense to the frightened little creature that conflates sister with safety so that you can say there is safety. And that can happen with almost anyone you know. And she has you and Glennon, the two sisters in this equation before Abby came along. She has both of you. How cool is that? Double sisters.
- [13:57]
Amanda Doyle
It's true. And she has a brother who's wonderful to her.
- [14:00]
Dr. Martha Beck
Well, there you go. Okay.
- [14:01]
Amanda Doyle
I think maybe it's like, when I'm thinking about it, I'm like, is it that if she had a sister that was my daughter, then I would know that I had raised both of them to protect each other? And since her people are gonna be people that just Other people raised. And how vulnerable is that? I can't even. I have no control over those people. Those people are just out. Out there running wild.
- [14:28]
Dr. Martha Beck
Oh, sweetheart. It's so funny that you think you have control over how your daughters grow up. That is hilarious. It's so much more nature than nurture. They're going to be who they're going to be, and you can't control it. So basically, you're now in a story that says, be afraid and take control. Here's how to control it. I need to control it. I need to control it. That's the way. Now, this creates what we call an anxiety spiral. You have a bolt of fear that comes from the world is unsafe. My daughter had a triggering incident. Oh, no. Then immediately your brain tells a story. She has no sister. She's alone out there. Then it goes to its favorite method of fixing things. I will control everything. I must have another child and raise it to be my sister's sister, no.
- [15:10]
Amanda Doyle
Matter what it wants.
- [15:12]
Dr. Martha Beck
I mean, so now what it wants. Anxiety spiral. And it is. And I love you so much, but it is insane. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:22]
Amanda Doyle
When you put it like that.
- [15:22]
Glennon Doyle
It is, Martha.
- [15:23]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah, I do put it like that. You put it like that. So now when you get to a space of laughter, you've shifted from the anxiety spiral. Remember, the right side of the brain, the only place it uses language are poems, jokes, and songs. So by joking, I call it a joy jolt. You go, you open up the right side of the brain. You haven't lost sight of the fact that the world is hard and your daughter's vulnerable. You know that. But you can also look at the people around you. Glennon's here, Abby's here. I'm here. The pod squad is here. There are so many people and so many forces surrounding Alice to make sure that it buoys her up. And, yeah, she'll have difficult experiences. But you've heard about those trees that they grew in geodesic domes. Have you heard about this? They grew inside these domes to try to simulate a little ecosystem. And all the trees fell down before they were mature. And what they realized is the trees need the pressure of wind in order to become strong. So, yeah, it's a windy world out there, and sometimes the wind can be cold, but it makes people strong. I mean, look at y'all. You've been through some really dark stuff, all of you, right? You're strong, you're brave, and right now you're creating. You are creating connections between yourselves and millions of other people who are on the same wavelength, who would love to help keep Alice safe. This is just a different story. But it feels to me when I tell it, my body relaxes and that is my signal from nature which runs my body. Just say, oh, you've landed in the truth. Alice is okay. She's okay. She is. And you're okay. The little scared girl inside you is who also really needs your care and compassion. The one who's afraid that Alice feels as scared as she did. I bet Alice never feels as scared as you did. I don't know. No.
- [17:31]
Amanda Doyle
I hope.
- [17:33]
Dr. Martha Beck
I don't think so with y'all as parents. No, but that's her story. And people can go through really hard things and it makes them very strong. And you three are a testament to that. And as long as we can laugh and love and tell stories about our adventures along the way, that's the fun of it. Like, would you go to a movie about some nice people who are born in very tidy circumstances, have nice lunches and dinners every day until they die at the age of 110 with no conflict? Let me out. My God, that's boring. Yeah, why would you?
- [18:12]
Abby Wambach
It's true. It's true.
- [18:14]
Amanda Doyle
Okay, so I'm just going to let everything happen. Martha, guess what?
- [18:18]
Dr. Martha Beck
There's no alternative, Amanda.
- [18:21]
Glennon Doyle
The alternative is I could think of all the ways.
- [18:24]
Dr. Martha Beck
That's right.
- [18:25]
Amanda Doyle
Figure it out and then still let everything happen.
- [18:28]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah, because everything is just going to happen the way it's going to happen. And the more clenched up you are, the less influence you'll have. Because if we can unclench completely and go into a state of real present joy, what happens is that conditions tend to shift around us in favorable ways. And this is. I wrote three parts of this book on anxiety. First part is the creature, because that's the animal that gets anxious. Then there's the creative who says, not, oh, the world is scary. What should I do now? But what should I make now? Which immediately takes you into creativity. And if you can go into the creative part of your brain, then the last third of the book is called the creation. Because you stop when you're deep enough in joy and far enough away from anxiety. You start to feel yourself as kind of a field of compassion that is moving with your body and sometimes through your body, but there's no sense of effort. And it's not really known in our culture. In China and Japan, it's well known. People have been talking about it for thousands of years. But when you get to that state of transcendent happiness. You make everything around you better, but you don't have to do it. It just happens.
- [19:43]
Glennon Doyle
I understand that because it feels like the inevitable outcome of that would be that you would become a sanctuary.
- [19:49]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yes. Yeah. My favorite poem from the poet Hafiz, who is a 13th century Persian poet. There's a little bit of it that just goes troubled, Then stay with me for I am not. Thank God. All you have to have is someone like that. So why not be someone like that? Foreign.
- [20:23]
Abby Wambach
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- [22:26]
Glennon Doyle
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- [23:34]
Abby Wambach
Sure.
- [23:35]
Dr. Martha Beck
Okay, Abby, you're up.
- [23:38]
Amanda Doyle
Go ahead.
- [23:39]
Abby Wambach
What's the game? What do I say?
- [23:41]
Dr. Martha Beck
What are you most worried about? What are you most anxious about lately?
- [23:45]
Abby Wambach
See, I don't. I don't do anxiety. It's not something that I relate to because I think being an athlete for so long, I've learned to, like, use my body in a way to work through it.
- [23:58]
Dr. Martha Beck
Absolutely.
- [23:59]
Abby Wambach
And so I have had anxious times in my life. Absolutely. When the wheels fall off and people die, all of that, those feel like real moments. I'm not in an extraordinarily, like, anxious moment of my life, but I've had the worst year of my life, so.
- [24:19]
Dr. Martha Beck
Okay, first of all, let me just address what you just said, because it is profoundly important. All the time you spent perfecting your skills in athletics. Soccer, of course, mostly, but everything you do, really as an athlete, you're grounded in your body and you're paying really close attention to things like the arc of the ball as it comes toward you. You're not thinking about what you're going to do with your friends next week. You're present, you're physically grounded, your senses are wide open, and you've fired your brain in that direction so often that you don't wire for anxiety. You have wired yourself for no anxiety. So kudos. You thought you were just a world class athlete. You were also world class brainiac. Okay, now, why was it the worst year of your life?
- [25:06]
Abby Wambach
First time that's ever been said out loud. I'll take it. Yeah. So my brother passed away at the end of December last year.
- [25:13]
Dr. Martha Beck
Oh, sorry, honey.
- [25:15]
Abby Wambach
It has felt like the hits just have kept coming. Amanda's sister's cancer stuff that she went through.
- [25:24]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah.
- [25:24]
Abby Wambach
We've had some, you know, just, like, life was, like, really, I wasn't able to transcend, is what I'm saying. I wasn't able. And I think I've been grounded in so much grief over the last 12 months that that's kind of been my baseline.
- [25:39]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah. Yeah.
- [25:40]
Abby Wambach
And because of that, it's given me, I think, this, like, negative outlook.
- [25:46]
Dr. Martha Beck
Sure.
- [25:46]
Abby Wambach
Because I keep saying, like, every month, and I'm like, okay, that's done. We're moving. We're moving on. But, like, you know, grief is not something to just, like, chuck into the closet and be done with. It's something that keeps showing up. And so I've done quite a bit of, like, intense therapy around it. And the moment I started to accept the fact that I was going to live with this grief forever.
- [26:08]
Dr. Martha Beck
Right.
- [26:09]
Abby Wambach
It will move in different ways, and it'll show up differently. Then the light has kind of started to show back into my life, which is great. I think maybe there's an anxiety that now kind of lives in my body around, is it true? Like, there's fear that I have that I will never be able to have access to Pre Peter's life. Feeling of okayness.
- [26:40]
Dr. Martha Beck
I was just going to ask you, are you afraid of feeling this way forever?
- [26:44]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [26:45]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah. Because that is a real thing. And it's really interesting because in our last episode, I talked about how with fear, the first thing you do is calm the animal of your body, and you know how to do that. But then you go into a place where you make something. And in your case, I say C a T for cat. C is for calm. A is for art. And your art, your primary art was soccer. Is soccer. So you've been doing art your whole life. In case people think I'm narrowly defining art, it's anything you make or do that you can master. So you've done that. As you continue to make things, you get to this point I just talked about called transcendence. And, Abby, I think your life is bringing you an opportunity because you've already come so far on this path of evolution away from fear, that it's asking you to transcend the deepest fears that a human being has. So you are in the black belt training right now. And what we have to do with any of our fears. You saw how I sort of picked away at Amanda's saying, are you sure this is true? So let's take your brother's death. What's the most painful thought you have around his being gone that it's gonna.
- [28:08]
Abby Wambach
Happen to Me too.
- [28:12]
Dr. Martha Beck
Well, your body probably will eventually lie down and stop talking.
- [28:17]
Abby Wambach
Yep, I'm really scared to death. That's part of what I'm like in active therapy around. Cause this has really brought it to the surface. Obviously I'm like devastated for his family and his children and him. He really liked living and he liked having a good time. He was total joy guy. But it stoked this real deep fear of the unknown. The thing that's really happening to all of us right now.
- [28:43]
Dr. Martha Beck
And as I said in the last episode, all long standing fears that aren't of something in the room, they come from stories and culture tells us different stories. And every culture tells slightly different stories, sometimes very different stories about death and what it is. We live in a very left hemisphere dominated society. And the left hemisphere only believes in material objects. And it identifies itself as material objects and wants to grasp them and hold on to them. And the idea of losing the self and losing control are maxed out in the idea of death. Interestingly, when they test meditators, Tibetan meditators who are in complete bliss all the time, you know what's not working in their brains? The part that says I am a self and the part that says I am in control, those two things are off.
- [29:46]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [29:47]
Dr. Martha Beck
So you know the materialist story of what death is, Our culture says you die, but you're gone. That's all there is. Does that bring peace to your body to think that story, to just have those thoughts? Does it bring a sense of freedom.
- [30:11]
Abby Wambach
That we die and we're gone and.
- [30:13]
Dr. Martha Beck
The material and there's nothing else?
- [30:15]
Abby Wambach
No.
- [30:17]
Dr. Martha Beck
So I may have told you this before. The Buddha used to say, wherever you find water, a body of water, you can know if it's the sea because the sea always tastes of salt. And wherever you find enlightenment, you can recognize it because enlightenment always tastes of freedom. So when we think thoughts that are deeply true to us, like the thought, think this thought, you three overachievers. At no time am I ever required to do more than I can do in peace. Give that one a trip around your brain.
- [30:52]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, that's good.
- [30:53]
Dr. Martha Beck
Does it make you feel freer? Yes.
- [30:56]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [30:57]
Dr. Martha Beck
The reason it makes you feel freer is that it's true. That's my belief now. I have had a near death experience or something very much like it. And after it, I became obsessed with near death experiences because it was so exquisite. I just couldn't live without it. I just would read books, anything I could about people who had like, gone through this transition because what they Experienced. Actually, this painting is kind of blurry.
- [31:27]
Amanda Doyle
Oh, yeah.
- [31:29]
Dr. Martha Beck
This is a painting I did based on that experience. It's a man going through these sort of stained glass windows in a cathedral that's also a forest. And he's going toward this light. So, long story short, I was in surgery. I regained consciousness even though I wasn't feeling any pain. And I could see even though my eyes were taped shut. And this light appeared to me, and it permeated me, and it was the most exquisite feeling. Oh, my God. And it was just laughing with me. We were laughing together. We were like, oh, my God. I forgot that I was this. And the light was saying, I know we told you you'd forget. And you said, no, no, I won't. And then you totally forgot. You're laughing and laughing. It was physically warm. It was like liquid bliss. And I couldn't stand to live without it. And I had to find my way back to it. But I know that I probably am going to go through that when I die. It's such an intensely real experience. It's so much more real than the physical universe. But, Abby, is there any way we could, like, chip away at the story of death that you've been taught by your culture or by your religion, where God's really pissed off at you?
- [32:53]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [32:54]
Glennon Doyle
And where she's going straight to hell.
- [32:56]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, that's true.
- [32:57]
Glennon Doyle
She was taught that as a kid, that she was going to hell.
- [32:59]
Dr. Martha Beck
Me, too.
- [33:00]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. That's the deal.
- [33:01]
Dr. Martha Beck
I left Mormonism. Not to mention being gay. That is the sin worse than murder. I'm going through eternal darkness.
- [33:08]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [33:09]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah. Except that is not what sets my soul free. And I refuse to believe things that are just told to me arbitrarily by my culture when they don't set me free, that. No, I'm not going to stop with their stories. I'm going to keep digging in. What's your brother's name?
- [33:29]
Abby Wambach
Peter.
- [33:31]
Dr. Martha Beck
Peter's gone. Can you be sure that's true?
- [33:34]
Abby Wambach
Oh, yeah.
- [33:36]
Dr. Martha Beck
Now ask it a second time. Only this time, drop it down into the deepest interior part of yourself. Like, if it's infinite out, there's also an infinite in. Drop that question in and wait for a response from the deepest part of yourself. Peter's gone. Can I absolutely know that that is true?
- [33:57]
Abby Wambach
No, it's not true. I know that I just got me.
- [34:03]
Dr. Martha Beck
The chill of truth. Like, feel that?
- [34:07]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. But it's so difficult for me because, see, I feel so conflicted around even saying that out loud because it conflicts with not just the things that I was taught. But then I had to rebel against everything that I was taught in order to be in my body and to leave my home and to be able to live the life that I did. So I went through atheism and then agnosticism, and then I met Glennon, who is like very, you know, Jesus minded. And I'm just like, all of it's so fucking confusing. And the truth is, we will never know what happens until it happens to us.
- [34:43]
Dr. Martha Beck
Absolutely.
- [34:43]
Abby Wambach
And so even, like these stories that I make up, even the positive stories, I don't know if that's even true.
- [34:50]
Dr. Martha Beck
Exactly. We cannot know this guru I love who says the only true thing the mind can say is, I do not know. Yeah, but it's very different to live in what's called don't know mind, which is common in Asian philosophy, where you're not projecting stories. You're actually in the present moment and you're very, very sensitive to what's happening in and around you. When my father, I wrote a book about many things leaving Mormonism, he sexually abused me, the whole thing. He was 95 when I published that book. And I couldn't understand why I felt I had to write it while he was still alive. But the day it came out, when the New York Times was doing a whole covered on the art section and I was getting death threats and my family wanted to put me in prison and everything, and I woke up at four in the morning with this overwhelming sense of my father's presence. But it was beautiful. It was like a symphony. It was like I'd been hearing him through a staticky radio, this beautiful song, and it was just glorious. And I sat there for two hours, and then I got up and got ready for the day, and I thought, I guess it's because both of our truths are out there. And then as I was doing an interview, someone came in and said, your father died at 4:00 this morning. And I had no investment in, like, I. I loved him, I love him, but I didn't necessarily need him to be alive to be happy. So I didn't really have a dog in the race. So his, whatever it was hit me so tangibly. And it stayed with me through this book tour where I had to have guards and people, you know, getting frisked for guns, coming into book readings and stuff. And I would hear him singing, like, songs from the Carpenters, songs that he would never have sung, but it was his voice, and he was there the whole time so powerfully, like, all the terrible fathering he did was kind of made up for in the month of great fathering he did once he died.
- [36:58]
Glennon Doyle
Wow.
- [36:59]
Dr. Martha Beck
This is just another story. Was it really? I don't know. Of course I don't know. Is the religious story true? No. Anybody who says this is the way it is, fuck you. It is not. You do not know that. You're just a little monkey in shoes like me. Stop pretending you know shit. But then live in the I don't know.
- [37:26]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [37:27]
Dr. Martha Beck
And sometimes you feel him, and sometimes you feel that when you say, we all just die and get married and that's the end. And it's like, oh, that doesn't set me free. Religion doesn't set me free. What if I just leave my mind wide open and walk into the mystery? That's what this guy behind me is doing. He's not walking into certainty. He's walking into the mystery.
- [37:52]
Abby Wambach
Isn't maybe that, like, the most brave?
- [37:56]
Dr. Martha Beck
I think you know, Abby, I think you just said the truth.
- [37:59]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. Isn't that the right way?
- [38:01]
Dr. Martha Beck
It's not the right way, but it is the brave way.
- [38:04]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. I don't mean to say right. It's the brave way. It's like. That's the thing. I just. I haven't known, like, the direction to take the thought or the fear.
- [38:16]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah.
- [38:17]
Abby Wambach
This has been a huge suffering point for me throughout my entire life. And it's like I can attach myself to the brave way because that's the truest way.
- [38:30]
Dr. Martha Beck
You're the hero in your story.
- [38:31]
Abby Wambach
Absolutely. Okay.
- [38:34]
Dr. Martha Beck
And the heroic story is not to allow any religious dogma to determine what you think about death. And it is not to let atheistic science, which is just as dogmatic as religion.
- [38:47]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [38:47]
Dr. Martha Beck
Tell you what death is. Leave your mind and your senses open the way they are open when you're on the soccer field playing ball. Be present in that moment and you will meet, in their energy, people that you've lost to death. What is it? I don't know, but it feels like freedom.
- [39:09]
Abby Wambach
All right, well, this is good.
- [39:12]
Dr. Martha Beck
Also, let me just say, in the words of my Australian wife, sucks, mate. Sucks.
- [39:20]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Amanda Doyle
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- [41:10]
Glennon Doyle
We were talking the other night in bed about this, which is an ongoing conversation forever, eternal conversation. And Abby was saying we were discussing the possibility of an afterlife and, like, what it could be and what even existing, even another place existing and how insane that is to think about. But then I was like, well, okay, what makes me confused about people not even possibly believing there could be another existence is that we're in an existence right now. I'm doing it. It's like I'm having. How could there possibly be another place where there's beautiful rivers? I'm like, I'm looking outside right now. I see an oce and I am existing in this place. I feel like it's like a bunch of people at a party sitting around going, there sure as hell is not another party. Like, what kind of idiot would believe another party exists?
- [42:14]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah. Every time you make me laugh, I cough. But I enjoy this so much, I'm willing to cough. That is hilarious.
- [42:21]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [42:22]
Dr. Martha Beck
People say, I think I can move things with my mind alone. Oh, look, I just did it.
- [42:32]
Amanda Doyle
They're moving their hands up and down.
- [42:34]
Dr. Martha Beck
You're moving their hands with your mind. And nobody, one philosopher says, nobody has any idea why consciousness can inhabit a physical form. And no one even has the slightest idea what it would be like to understand how consciousness can animate a physical being. Nobody knows it. Science doesn't know. We don't understand a thing thing about it. But one thing we do know, as you said, is here we are. Or at least we're wondering where we are. So. And by the way to Abby's situation, you know Descartes, the great philosopher, he said, cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But that's not what he said. He said, dubito cogito ergo sum. He said, I don't know what's going on. I don't have a clue.
- [43:18]
Amanda Doyle
But.
- [43:18]
Dr. Martha Beck
But that means something here is thinking. So I must exist. It was doubt. It was an open mind, not a celebration of thinking.
- [43:28]
Amanda Doyle
Right.
- [43:30]
Dr. Martha Beck
So. Yeah. And by the way, there are a lot of physicists right now who believe seven more dimensions are unfolded within every point of space time and we can't perceive them. There are levels and levels and levels of existence that are on planes of existence that we as monkeys in socks can't understand.
- [43:51]
Abby Wambach
We can't.
- [43:51]
Dr. Martha Beck
So we make like a location. Yes. And humans.
- [43:55]
Amanda Doyle
Every time I say, well, I'm like, you're telling me a shark can tell the distance of its prey because there's some kind of electrical force field surrounding it?
- [44:03]
Glennon Doyle
But we think.
- [44:04]
Amanda Doyle
We don't have gut instinct.
- [44:05]
Dr. Martha Beck
That's right. And actually people learn to echolocate. Blind people sometimes learn to echolocate by clicking. And then the sound bounces off objects. Hey, try this one on. There is an artist named Asref Armagan in Turkey who was born with one eye the size of a lentil which is totally nonfunctional. The other eye just isn't there. This person paints realistic portraits and landscapes. He is an artist by trade. He has no eyes. He. He was born without them. And all these different. Harvard went and did a study on him just to make sure he wasn't cheating. He's really doing it. How the hell is that happening? And we think we understand the universe.
- [44:51]
Glennon Doyle
It's the understanding. No, listen. The Pod Squad does not need to. What is Glidden anxious about?
- [44:57]
Dr. Martha Beck
Oh, yes, we want to know. I don't think we need to drop.
- [45:00]
Glennon Doyle
I don't think we need to. But we can do one real quick if you want. But I just so love that thing about Descartes because it's what makes me feel like I exist is the doubting. It's like the existing in the most vibrant existence is at first always a rejection. It's like when you are just parroting, when a religious leader is just giving you dogma and you are just soaking it in and repeating it, to me, that's like not vibrant existence.
- [45:31]
Dr. Martha Beck
No, I love that.
- [45:32]
Glennon Doyle
That quote starts with the doubting is the beginning of existence. It proves that there's a chemical reaction happening between what you're saying to me and what is inside of me that is creating a third thing and that is proof that I exist. It starts with my rejection of swallowing what you're saying. I'm adding myself.
- [45:48]
Dr. Martha Beck
Exactly.
- [45:49]
Amanda Doyle
It's the creativity. It's the right brain stuff.
- [45:51]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [45:52]
Amanda Doyle
It's like, I see your things, I see your facts, and I'm adding this, like, exactly.
- [45:59]
Dr. Martha Beck
I will consider it. In the field of not knowing where I live, there's a terrific neurological researcher named Andrew Newberg who's written a lot about spirituality in the brain. And he himself had this experience early in his life where he was in agony trying to figure out what was real. And one day he found himself in what he calls the infinite sea of doubt. And it sounds odd, but he said it was warm, it was sweet, it was buoyant, it cared about me. That was my experience with the white light that came to me in the surgery. And he just calls it the field of infinite doubt. But it's conscious and it loves us. Why not? That's a story. We might as well believe it. It's just as good as. You know, you lie down, stop talking, and we bury you and walk away.
- [46:49]
Glennon Doyle
It's a better story.
- [46:51]
Dr. Martha Beck
So what are you worried about, Glennon?
- [46:52]
Glennon Doyle
Well, I had a list, but. Oh, I will bring one up. And I think you could probably do it quickly because I've heard you talk about it as perhaps one of yours, which is why I'm not too embarrassed to bring it up. I will try to explain it as a. I know how to be a peaceful, vibrant goddess of a human being.
- [47:18]
Dr. Martha Beck
Uh huh.
- [47:19]
Glennon Doyle
As long as 47 conditions are present to make me, and they all are related to my body. I'm so scared of not sleeping. So I have to have all of these things in mind. I'm afraid of different. Not having my specific foods, not having my specific. Whatever the hell it is that month that I believe, like a magic potion, is making me have aliveness. And so it narrows my life in terms of travel, in terms of new experiences, because I could live, Martha, I could live a solid month and be my version of peaceful and happy and never leave my house.
- [48:08]
Dr. Martha Beck
Oh, me too.
- [48:09]
Glennon Doyle
Okay.
- [48:09]
Dr. Martha Beck
Oh, lockdown was heaven for me. I'M an introvert and I don't like people, but I love humanity and would die for any of you.
- [48:18]
Amanda Doyle
Yes.
- [48:19]
Dr. Martha Beck
But I'm just a paranoid introvert at heart. But I think this is really exciting because I think you're actually ready to experience because you say that, but you've also, you know the stuff that I'm telling you and you've talked to brilliant people from all over the world and everything and you're brilliant yourself and these guys are there to support you. So it's not a big deal. But if you can go into, don't know mind where it's peaceful and joyful, when you're in a sea of loving, compassionate, not knowing, but just going through it, like if you're present in your current space, that's the first thing C a t get calm and present in the current space. Right. Nothing's going to attack you Right. In this very moment. When I talked to Jill Bolte Taylor about what the world was like when her left hemisphere was offline, this brain scientist who had a big left hemisphere stroke, she said, there's no anxiety in the right hemisphere because there's no time. So we're just right here. So here we are. And there are all these conditions that you think are necessary to make your physical self vital and alive and feeling good. Yeah. So I started doing this research and I came up with this idea that creativity is the opposite of anxiety and that if you go into creativity, you're going to leave your anxiety behind. And I experimented on myself and I did it religiously and I got to a place I did a lot of arty things. Then I started to experience transcendent things and then the exact fears you're talking about, my deepest fears were very much like these. And I started experiencing what felt and still feel like miracles. Insomnia was my number one fear. Had it my whole damn life. I met these three Canadian women who run a thing called Sleep Underscore Works. You can Google it. They said, we can fix your, your sleep cycle. And I said, no, you can't. I once took a drug that literally, they said, put yourself, empty your bladder and then arrange yourself exactly the way you want to sleep and then drink this liquid because you're not going to move for four hours and you will pee yourself if your bladder's full and you won't record memories. I took the thing, I waited. 45 minutes later I got up and started learning to play the ukulele so I could check whether I was putting. Yes, I remember that night it was horrible. I did not sleep at all. These Canadian women and, dude, they did things, you know, that have to do with the way you're exposed to light and the way you're exposed to temperature. And after about two weeks, I felt melatonin come into my brain for the very first time. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to fall asleep without meaning to. I never felt that ever. I'm 62 fucking years old. You can learn to sleep. But that miracle came to me, okay, the same time. Then the next email said, you are invited to go on a seven day walk in England. We will be walking 85 miles, 10 to 12 miles a day. Now, I have not walked for 10 years because I broke my foot. It healed badly. It was a mess. I couldn't walk for like five years. Then I had surgery. Then I couldn't walk for five more years. So I'm all atrophied and old and. What the hell? The next email said, you have a free round trip ticket to London from British Airways. And I was like, I think I'm supposed to do this. And I started walking even though I had all kinds of pain and all kinds of fear. And it brought up every anxiety I had about physical pain, and they were many. And last October, I went to England. I had to skip a day because my son was sick, but I walked 75 miles in six days and loved it. Right? Like that wasn't supposed to happen in my 60s. Then it's like I could go through a list of things. Everything that I am most deeply afraid of was given to me and then healed. It just starts to be magic. Anxiety pulls us out of what we're meant to be, which is, let us face it, witches, right? Y'all know that's what we are. Oh, now they're coming for us. That's all right. They're coming for sociologists anyway. They are. They don't teach it in Florida anymore because it's too left wing.
- [52:44]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, my God.
- [52:45]
Dr. Martha Beck
But, Glennon, let's tell a few new stories about these fears. So the first, the biggest physical fear, what is it for you?
- [52:53]
Glennon Doyle
Getting sick.
- [52:54]
Dr. Martha Beck
Okay.
- [52:55]
Glennon Doyle
Or feeling bad? Feeling tired, Feeling off, not feeling right.
- [53:01]
Dr. Martha Beck
Feeling bad, feeling off, not feeling right. All right. So there is a belief in the brain that says feeling bad is bad. Pretty solid story. But can you be sure it's true? Doing hard things often feels what we might see as bad. Like if you're climbing a mountain and you're at the very peak capacity and your muscles are straining and you're hanging on by your fingernails. You have bad feelings. There's pain. There's a rock under your fingernail. There's scratches on your knees. Your shoulders feel like they're being ripped out of their sockets. And then you get up on a little ledge and you've done it. That is actually the condition for flow, which is the most, the greatest sense of bliss that humans can experience. Being at the outside edge of capability, where it is really uncomfortable and mastering it. And you happen to marry someone who's a master of it. So feeling bad is always bad. Is that true?
- [54:13]
Glennon Doyle
No.
- [54:15]
Dr. Martha Beck
No. And how do you feel and how do you react and what happens when you think the thought feeling bad is bad?
- [54:24]
Glennon Doyle
It feels constricty.
- [54:27]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah. That's the anxiety spiral tightening on you. It does not feel like freedom. It is not enlightenment. So who would you be if it were impossible? This is the Byron Katie work, by the way. If it were impossible for you to think painful feelings, bad feelings are bad, you couldn't think that thought. Animals don't think that thought. There is pain, then there is not pain. They don't sit around thinking about how bad it is. They just are there.
- [54:58]
Glennon Doyle
Well, I guess I would avoid less things. It feels like that's what animals don't do. Right. They don't avoid based on beliefs they have about things.
- [55:07]
Dr. Martha Beck
They don't have any beliefs.
- [55:08]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, right.
- [55:09]
Dr. Martha Beck
My dog has a few, but so.
- [55:11]
Glennon Doyle
I guess I would not avoid things.
- [55:13]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah, they don't avoid things they love. They avoid things that seem dangerous or unpleasant. Yeah. Because they're not afraid of being shamed, humiliated, attacked. If they don't do the thing, they're going to stay away from things they don't want, but they're going to really go toward things they love without any particular. They're just in the sea of unknowing about whether they're going to feel negative sensations or emotions or not. They're sort of up for it. All right. I just remember what Jill told me, you know, when she was without that left hemisphere anxiety. She was in a state of perpetual awe and glory, like beauty bliss. She said they thought. Scientists say that left hemisphere strokes make people depressed because they cry a lot. She said I wasn't crying because I was in pain or in depression. I was crying because I was in awe all the time.
- [56:09]
Glennon Doyle
And Martha, was she in awe? She was in awe of just what was around her. See, this is my question.
- [56:15]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah.
- [56:16]
Dr. Martha Beck
Yeah.
- [56:17]
Glennon Doyle
Is it possible? I feel like I love my life in my house, like I love my People. I love my living room. I love doing little creative things at my table. I love going for a walk. And I feel like I'm supposed to want. When I travel, I'm like, I'm at this beautiful place and I'm like, okay, I would.
- [56:42]
Dr. Martha Beck
Then why are you doing it?
- [56:45]
Glennon Doyle
Exactly.
- [56:46]
Dr. Martha Beck
Why are you doing it? I'm serious. Why the hell are you leaving when everything's so perfect at home? Why would you do that?
- [56:52]
Abby Wambach
Because experiences also expand.
- [56:54]
Glennon Doyle
Bobby tells me I have to.
- [56:56]
Dr. Martha Beck
Well, that's a story, isn't it?
- [56:57]
Abby Wambach
Well, it's a truth for me. It might not be a truth for you.
- [57:01]
Dr. Martha Beck
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you down. I respect your truth. And I have had voyages of discovery right in the chair where I'm sitting now.
- [57:08]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, my God.
- [57:09]
Dr. Martha Beck
Just as good as anything I've ever traveled.
- [57:11]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, my God. That is why sometimes I don't know. I haven't left the house for a week because I have had a week of great adventure.
- [57:19]
Dr. Martha Beck
Why would you not every one of us is different. And, yeah, we make compromises to be with each other and to learn each other's joys and share those things. And if they're fun, keep doing them, but don't do them if you don't want to do them. It's that simple. That's. That was the integrity thing. Know what you really know, feel what you really feel, say what you really mean, and do what you really want.
- [57:40]
Amanda Doyle
So how do you know then, Martha, if you're not doing something because you're deeply satisfied in what you're already doing. Yeah. Or you're not doing something because you are afraid of the friction it will cause you.
- [57:57]
Dr. Martha Beck
The difference is that when you're doing something out of deep satisfaction, you feel deeply satisfied. And when you're doing something out of fear, you're afraid. So if Glennon wants to go out, but she's like, no, that's a fear reaction. But if she's just like, oh, my God, look at these. I have made a table full of beads or whatever, and I am just going to sit here making precious, pointless things. And it's joyful. I did an experiment in January of lockdown year. Every day I just got up and I said, what will happen if I only do right hemisphere things? So I would get up and start drawing. Hadn't drawn for a long, long time. Drew a lot as a kid and all that. And I said, I'll start with drawing and move on from there. I never moved on from there. I started Drawing and then painting 20 hours a day. I was waking up at 4 in the morning to go paint. I got just high on it. I was so excited all the time. I was like, this is so fun. Fun. And then I was supposed to stop, and I could not. I couldn't. So I called my IFS therapist and I said to her, I need you to stop me from painting all day. And she said, why? And I said, well, because I have to do other things. And she said, why? And I said, because it's not normal to paint all day. She said, well, go inside and find the true self and ask it what it thinks. So I was like, okay, all right. Then I was like, it's not working. My true self doesn't think I should stop painting. And she's like, all right. And then she said, this very, very brilliant professional woman, she says, full disclosure, I am taking an oil painting class, and I also cannot stop.
- [59:41]
Glennon Doyle
She's like, I'm a bit conflicted out of this.
- [59:43]
Dr. Martha Beck
You're going to need a new therapist. How awesome is that? And I have noticed this is why Ro and I made our online community of creatives. I have noticed creativity rising in the very people who are the opposite of the actors at the top of our government and so on that we're all a bit nervous about, right? And there are people who are going to fight them through politics, through policies. I have great honor and respect for those people. But to go into the other part of the brain and begin to create like in your living room is, I believe, a far more seditious act. It undermines the structures based on fear. Making art out of joy and celebrating it and making things with one another. It undermines the structures of white supremacist patriarchy. It is so many people from other cultures will tell us that they've known it all along. Look, do whatever is making you happy in your house and get rid of the stupid story that says you should do anything except what makes you happy. It's just. That makes no sense to me.
- [60:52]
Amanda Doyle
That's a wrap, y'all.
- [60:55]
Dr. Martha Beck
Does that help?
- [60:56]
Glennon Doyle
It helps so much. I can't wait to get up and be done with this podcast and go nowhere.
- [61:02]
Amanda Doyle
Yes, me too.
- [61:03]
Dr. Martha Beck
I'm just gonna literally pick up my palette and keep doing watercolors. This is what I was doing when we got online.
- [61:10]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, God. Martha Beck, I love you so much. I'm so grateful for you in the world. Just so grateful. And just please give a hug to your entire family. I love all of you. I think Rowan might be present there. I just feel her.
- [61:26]
Dr. Martha Beck
Maybe. But there's a cat online that says, love you, love you, love you, love you, love you, love you, love you. That's always how I feel when I see the three of you.
- [61:35]
Glennon Doyle
And we're back to cat. Okay, one more time.
- [61:37]
Dr. Martha Beck
Calm, calm, artistic. That is creative in any way and then transcendent. And this has been a lot of fun for me, but I also can feel the grief in Abby's heart. And I'm surrounding that in the gentlest, warmest, most loving energy I can send you. And I promise you, it gets transmuted into something beautiful. There is an alchemy to this, and I know that you know how to use it.
- [62:06]
Abby Wambach
I'm getting there. I feel it's starting to happen, you.
- [62:09]
Glennon Doyle
Know, you know, you know Pod Squad. You know, we'll see you next time. Go get Martha's book. Go get Beyond Anxiety. We are all going to get beyond anxiety together. If this podcast means something to you. It would mean so much to to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman. Nick. The show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.