How to Talk to Kids About Hard Things: Sonya Renee Taylor

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things Podcast: How to Talk to Kids About Hard Things with Sonya Renee Taylor

Release Date: February 18, 2025

In this deeply insightful episode of We Can Do Hard Things, host Glennon Doyle, along with Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle, engage in a meaningful conversation with Sonya Renee Taylor, renowned author and advocate for radical self-love. The episode delves into the challenging yet essential task of discussing difficult topics with children, such as climate change, sex, racism, and emotional well-being. Sonya Renee Taylor provides practical strategies and heartfelt advice to equip parents and guardians with the tools needed to navigate these conversations authentically and effectively.

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1. Navigating the Climate Crisis with Children

Abby Wambach opens the discussion amidst growing climate concerns, highlighting the urgency of communicating these realities to the younger generation. She expresses gratitude for Sonya's presence, emphasizing the importance of honest dialogue without imposing rigid narratives.

Abby Wambach [04:35]: "Sonya, the reason why I am so grateful that you're here is that we are also people who are watching this all happen around us. And for many of us, the most important part of this is how on earth, literally, do we speak of this to our children?"

Sonya Renee Taylor responds by advocating for truth-telling as a foundation for building resilience and imagination in children. She underscores the detrimental effects of shielding kids from harsh realities, arguing that honesty prepares them better for the world they inhabit.

Sonya Renee Taylor [06:40]: "We have been talking about our dear friend Adrienne Maree Brown, and how she's been telling us to, you know, gather your people, get your go bags... set a different narrative."

She emphasizes the power of young people’s innate creativity and their ability to envision a sustainable future when guided by honest and supportive adults.

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2. The Role of Reliable Narrators in Parenting

A pivotal concept introduced by Sonya is that of adults serving as "reliable narrators" for children. This means consistently providing truthful and compassionate narratives about the world, enabling children to develop self-trust and critical thinking skills.

Sonya Renee Taylor [11:22]: "If we don't tell the truth, we become unreliable narrators of the world."

Amanda Doyle adds that failing to be reliable narrators can lead children to internalize unfairness and blame themselves for external injustices.

Amanda Doyle [12:22]: "You have to find a way to be a reliable narrator so that when something hurts them, they don't think it's their fault."

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3. Initiating Conversations About Sex

Transitioning to more personal topics, Abby asks Sonya how to approach conversations about sex with children. Sonya advocates for a two-pronged approach: addressing both the biological aspects and the emotional connections involved in sexual relationships.

Sonya Renee Taylor [21:10]: "Our bodies were made to experience pleasure... it's about our right to pleasure in our bodies and to connect with each other."

She recommends starting these conversations early and tailoring them to be age-appropriate, ensuring that the information is clear and devoid of unnecessary fear.

Sonya Renee Taylor [23:29]: "As soon as your young person has access to externalized information, I believe that's when you should start having these conversations at age appropriate levels."

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4. Addressing the Impact of Pornography

Abby inquires about the implications of pornography on children's understanding of sex. Sonya warns against the commercialization and distortion of sexual experiences through pornography, stressing the importance of guiding children towards healthy and consensual views of sexuality.

Sonya Renee Taylor [25:12]: "Pornography gives us a distorted view about what sex really is... it's used for money, not connection."

She advises parents to discuss the realities of porn critically, helping children differentiate between genuine connections and commodified sexual interactions.

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5. Evolving Conversations with Growing Children

As children mature, so do their questions and understandings. Sonya emphasizes the importance of adaptability in conversations, likening the process to software updates that ensure ongoing relevance and effectiveness.

Sonya Renee Taylor [33:27]: "If we don't transform, then we beget all of our trauma and disconnection... it's our job to transform first."

This approach allows parents to remain relatable and trustworthy as their children’s perspectives evolve.

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6. Supporting Children Through Social Challenges

The discussion shifts to handling situations where children experience exclusion or bullying. Sonya highlights the significance of empathy and reframing negative experiences to prevent long-lasting self-blame.

Sonya Renee Taylor [52:25]: "There's a place in me that absolutely understands that. And so the first location is just deep empathy and witnessing."

She advocates for guiding children to see beyond isolated incidents, fostering a resilient self-image that is not tied to the actions of others.

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7. Cultivating Critical Thinking and Compassion

Sonya underlines the need for fostering critical thinking and compassion within children, enabling them to question societal norms and injustices rather than internalizing unfair treatments.

Sonya Renee Taylor [40:38]: "Young people are naturally, you know, like, they're inquisitive and naturally relatively compassionate."

By encouraging open dialogue and modeling vulnerability, parents can nurture a generation capable of thoughtful and compassionate action.

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8. Authenticity Over Perfection in Parenting Conversations

In concluding the discussion, Sonya stresses that being a "reliable narrator" does not equate to being a perfect one. Authenticity and connection take precedence over having all the answers, allowing for genuine and supportive interactions.

Sonya Renee Taylor [60:26]: "Your job is to be as authentic as you can be inside of the connection... it's okay to be fumbly and messy."

This authentic approach ensures that children feel heard and supported, fostering a secure environment for navigating life's complexities.

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Key Takeaways

• Honest Communication: Engaging in truthful conversations about difficult topics prepares children to face reality with resilience and creativity.

• Reliable Narrators: Parents and guardians should consistently provide accurate and compassionate narratives to build trust and self-awareness in children.

• Age-Appropriate Discussions: Tailoring conversations to be suitable for a child's developmental stage ensures clarity and reduces unnecessary fear.

• Empathy and Reframing: Addressing negative experiences with empathy helps prevent self-blame and encourages a positive self-image.

• Critical Thinking and Compassion: Encouraging children to question and think critically fosters a generation capable of compassionate action and societal improvement.

• Authenticity in Conversations: Being genuine and connected in discussions, rather than seeking perfection, strengthens the parent-child relationship and supports meaningful dialogue.

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Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things provides invaluable insights into the delicate art of parenting amid challenging societal and personal issues. Sonya Renee Taylor's expertise and compassionate approach offer a roadmap for parents striving to equip their children with the tools necessary to navigate a complex world with honesty, resilience, and love. By embracing these strategies, adults can help cultivate a generation of empowered and compassionate individuals ready to tackle hard things with grace and courage.

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Quote Highlights:

• Sonya Renee Taylor [06:40]: "It is possible to say to young people, here's what we have been doing and here is what it's created. Here is where we got it wrong."

• Abby Wambach [10:12]: "They will not believe our what could be if they don't believe our what is is."

• Sonya Renee Taylor [16:22]: "The answer isn't that we don't know. There are things we do know and we just don't like the answer."

• Sonya Renee Taylor [25:20]: "Pornography gives us a distorted view about what sex really is."

• Sonya Renee Taylor [60:26]: "Your job is to be as authentic as you can be inside of the connection."

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For those seeking to deepen their understanding and enhance their ability to discuss hard topics with their children, Sonya Renee Taylor's book, The Book of Radical Answers, comes highly recommended. It serves as a practical guide curated from genuine questions children are asking, providing a foundation for ongoing and evolving conversations.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

That I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think ALMA is so cool. ALMA connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that that level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people, better with Alma. Visit hello Alma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a LMA.com hard hard things Sonya Renee Taylor is one of many hands currently called to midwife the new world. She is a guide poet, storyteller, vision holder, intuitive astrologer, and evangelist of radical love. She she is the author of seven books, including the New York Times bestseller the Body is Not an Apology, the Power of Radical Self Love, and her most recent offering for young readers is the Book of Radical Answers. Today we are learning from Sonya how to talk to our kids about the hard stuff. Money, sex, the planet. The things that we want so hard to get right with our kids that we often freeze up and don't try at all. Sonia's going to help us try. This conversation is so important, not just for parents or anyone who has a kid in their life, but just for any adult who's trying to get any clarity around these incredibly nuanced but important human issues. Let's go.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

How are you? Are you in LA? Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So we, Sonia, are right outside of LA. It's a beach town that's 15 miles outside of where everything's happening. So we are both in it and out of it. We have people staying with us. We are feeling it and seeing it in the sky. We don't know anyone who hasn't been evacuated yet. And also, we're safe. It's a very confusing time. And this morning we're talking about how sometimes it just feels like the universe is just really hooking us up. I can't believe we're talking to you today. This is just. We're in it now. We're in the climate crisis, the Armageddon, the apocalypse, situations that we have been warned we would be in. You know, that idea that you will see climate change happening on your phone until you see it in front of you. And that's the way this goes. We have been talking about our dear friend Adrienne Maree Brown, and how she's been telling us to, you know, gather your people, get your go bags. And I've been like, okay, Adrienne. Like, it's just, you know, I love.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Settle down.

[Abby Wambach]

Let's just.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Let's not be extreme.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And now I'm texting her, like, fuck, what was I supposed to put in my go bag? I know you said it was gonna be too late.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Extreme has happened. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Sonya, the reason why I am so grateful that you're here is that we are also people who are watching this all happen around us. And for many of us, the most important part of this is how on earth, literally, do we speak of this to our children? How do people who are of the consciousness that we're in speak to a generation who we love so much, whose reality is completely different than we even experienced? And you have written, of course, you have written a beautiful book about. It's Behind Me, the Book of Radical Answers. And it's like, if you struggle with how to talk to your kids about everything that's important, sometimes the most important thing is not the what of what you're saying, but the who is saying it. And you are a person that. If I was like, okay, kid, I don't know what the fuck to say to you about sex, because I don't get it. So. But I'm just gonna put you in this room with Sonya Renee Taylor. And I feel confident that whatever you say will not put them in a rigid, dogmatic box that they will spend the rest of their lives trying to fight their way out of, but that what you will say will allow them to be that acorn you talk about that is just returning to self trust and self love and not a cage, but sort of like a fertilizer, if you will.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So, Sonya, can we just start by how do you talk to children about the planet right now?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, you know, well, first of all, I'm just delighted to be back with you all. It's really warming my heart and remembering just like, yeah. What a kinship I feel in this space. And so thank you for having me. It's truth telling. Time is really what it is that I'm experiencing is like there's a way in which we have, based on our own traumas, based on our own fears, based on our own conditioning, have thought that we were doing young people a service by lying to them. And we haven't. And what that actually has done and what we've seen it do throughout history is it makes them ill prepared for the world it is that actually exists. And it is possible to say to young people, here's what we have been doing and here is what it's created. Here is where we got it wrong. We have overvalued consumption. We've overvalued stuff. We've decided stuff was more important than the actual physical world we live on. We've decided that new phones and new iPads and new skyscrapers and new companies were more important than healthy soil and a lot of trees and good water. And our decisions have impacts, and we are living in the impact of our decisions. But the other thing that we get to remember is that we get to make new decisions. Just because we didn't make a great decision before doesn't mean that we are forever stuck inside of the cycle of bad decisions. We get to say, oh, we can change and pivot now. Does that mean that we don't have to live in the consequences of our decisions? No, we do. And we're looking at that right now. We're looking at the consequences of some really poor decisions that we made. And we also, from this point can say we want to do something different. What would that look like? And the power of young people is that this is where we get to elicit the brilliance that is their imagination. Guess what? You haven't Spent as much time living in the idea that these other things were the right things. Which means that you are so much closer to what the right things might be like. You're so much closer to actually what earth might really want. So let's imagine together, what do we think we could create together? And then we become partners with young people in envisioning a new world. Rather than just saying sorry, we saddled you with absolute devastation. Go figure it out, kid. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good. Yeah. I always think about. I'm from fundamentalist Christianity, so you can take the girl out of the church, but it's just there. It's like my. My native language.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I grew up Pentecostal.

[Abby Wambach]

I understand you're taking us through a process of truth. First we call it first the pain, then the rising. Or like first the crucifixion, then the resurrection. But kids can smell it when you jump to the resurrection before. So you're level setting.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

We skip something.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Here's the truth of it all.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Here's the truth of it all.

[Abby Wambach]

And then we move into imagination and creativity, which leaves them not hovering in the terror, because you can't really be creative and terrified at the same time.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

You can't. And here's the thing. If we don't tell the truth, we become unreliable narrators of the world.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

And then kids rely on themselves and each other to narrate with the level of information and skill that they have at that time. Right. Which is limited. And so our job as adults are to be reliable narrators such that we are trustworthy so that when we tell them, hey, we together can't imagine something new, they believe us. Because if we don't say that, then they don't believe us, which means they don't trust their own imagination, which means they won't lean into the natural skill set that they have. So our job is to be solid enough narrators of the experience that they're living that they feel their own self trustworthiness through the trustworthiness that's the foundation that they're interacting with through adults.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. They will not believe our what could be if they don't believe our what is is.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Absolutely. Because why would they. Like, you're not telling me the truth about life, so how could you be telling me the truth about me? So if you're saying I have the ability to do all this, but you're lying about everything else, then you're probably lying about that too.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Everything out of your mouth is bullshit. Yeah.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

All of it's not True. Now all of it's not true. That's what happens when we lie to kids. And so our job is to tell them the truth so that when we tell them the truth about themselves, they believe us.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, what do you say to people who think that their kids can't handle it, and so they just don't talk about it because. Or think like, that's too much for kid. Because I can barely. I grieve and I get so upset when I start thinking about the reality of the climate or of police brutality or of the administration coming in like that. You're just like, it's too much to saddle this poor kid with when I can't even handle it. What do you say to that?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I think the first thing that comes up for me is, like, if the truth is, it taps into a bit of anger in me. I'm like, there are kids handling it right now. And the idea that your kid can't handle it is a position of deep privilege because there are children all over the world right now figuring out the most atrocious of situations and at many times doing it without any support or infrastructure. And so your job as the adult in that young person's life is to create the conditions for them to be able to handle it. Which means that you're loving, you're compassionate, you're present, you're willing to hear, and that you have checked enough of your own stuff. Because the thing we're really saddling them with is our stuff.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

That's really. When we say, like, I don't want to saddle them with it, it's like, I don't want to settle them with my terror, my fear, my disbelief about what's possible. Well, then, guess what, grown person, go tend to that. Go tend to that so that you can be a loving steward of the young person who will inevitably have to handle it. Because guess what? The fire already burned their house down. They don't have a choice about whether or not they're going to handle it. It is what life is. So pretending that we don't have the capacity to handle what life is, it's just the story we're actually making up. Because the truth is, you're handling it now. Could you be handling it better? Do we want to feel more powerful, more sovereign, more connected inside of our handling it? Absolutely. But one way or another, you're going to have to handle it, because life delivered it. And so the question becomes, how do I say life is going to deliver my young person's circumstances? That are going to be difficult. What is my role in equipping them with the most powerful manifestation of themselves so that they can deal with life on life's terms without being dramatically impacted in really negative and traumatic ways later on? That's by dealing in the now, dealing in the present requires.

[Abby Wambach]

I think I've changed my mind about this. Like I used to think, you just walk in with them and you just don't know with them. You just say, I don't know, and you circle around the I don't know. And that is truish. But the more I think about it, the more I think the reason we don't know what to say to our children about the planet, about racism, about sex, about money, is because we don't effing know. We have not taken the stillness, the time, the therapy, the community, the books. We have not done the work to have a theory whether it's evolving and changing as it should. It should. It shouldn't be fixed, but we should have an idea about what we think about things.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah. And not only an idea. Like, here's the thing, I think we do know. We just don't like the answer. Yeah, I know that I have been really afraid of money. I know that I've been really stuck in scarcity for a long time. And I don't like that answer. I feel like it makes me not look good. I feel like it makes me unworthy. It activates all my own childhood wounds. And so, no, I don't want to say that to my kid. Except that then you become an unreliable narrator. And so the job is to say, I know that I've been afraid and I know that I don't want you to be. And so here's. I may not know how to fix it, but we can go research that together. Let's go on a journey together. And then you become a companion in exploration with this young person in your life. So the answer isn't that we don't know. There are things we don't know. And I think it is fair to say I don't know. And then to say like, but let's be curious together. Let's imagine, let's read, let's explore. Right. But there are things that we do know and we just don't like the answer. And I think our job in that place is to still be real, honest.

[Glennon Doyle]

Not only don't like the answer, but know the answer and do not wanna do the work to change. Cause the change bit is a tough one for us oldies.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Exactly. And this is the thing. Every question from a young person is an opportunity for the older person to step into a new possibility for themselves. Basically, every time a young person says, what about this? We get to assess for ourselves where we are on that journey and pivot should we so choose. But we get stuck and contracted and in our own fear. And then we do a disservice to young people by avoiding ourselves in our own level of work. People often ask me why I didn't write a book for young people before I wrote the Body's Not An Apology for Grown People. And I was like, because we gotta change first and foremost. Actually, if we don't transform, then we beget all of our trauma and disconnection and fear and shame onto the young people who we are the shepherds of, the stewards of. So actually, it's our job to transform first, such that we demonstrate the transformation is possible for young people because, God.

[Abby Wambach]

We can say the words. I think all the time about the amount of time that I spent teaching my girls and my boy about bodies and freedom while being anorexic. It's just. It really matters, the actual work we're doing.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I had the words reliable or an unreliable narrator. Yes, really is the theme of this conversation.

[Abby Wambach]

I imagine the kids being like, thanks, Mom. And when you're done with those six almonds, could you finish this conversation we're having about food and freedom?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Okay, Sonya, a kid comes to you and says.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Sex.

[Abby Wambach]

What is it? How does Sonya of the radical self, love of the acorn kind of wisdom talk to a kid about sex?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, you know, I mean, my immediate thought was like, oh, it's this awesome thing that sometimes makes humans and then sometimes not.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

You know, it's like sometimes, sometimes, sometimes not, depending on how we're having it. But I think, you know, for me, the first conversation is like, oh, our bodies were made to experience pleasure. And part of the reasons our bodies were made to experience pleasure is because it ensures that humans continue. Because if something's pleasurable to do, you're likely to do it. And since sex is one of the things that makes humans, it usually feeling good in, you know, motivates us to decide to do that. And so part of it is just the biology of how humans continue, but part of it is about our right to pleasure in our bodies and our right to connection with pleasure in our bodies and to experience Pleasure with each other. And that how we decide to experience pleasure with each other and inside of our bodies is a function of how we know ourselves, how we know each other. Where we want to be vulnerable with ourselves, where we want to be vulnerable with other people, where, where we are trustworthy with ourselves, where we want to be trustworthy with other people who have established themselves as trustworthy. All of those things go into sex. So there's the physiological part, which is about our anatomy and about our genitalia and putting genitalias together and the ways in which that feels pleasurable and also can do procreation. And then there's this other, what I think is actually the juicier, bigger piece, probably because I didn't decide to procreate. And so all the sex I've had has been for pleasure. It's been because it feels good and it's connecting and it's deep and it's beautiful when I know myself and I know my body and I trust the other person, those things. And so I think that's part of the place where I'd start the conversation.

[Abby Wambach]

That's beautiful.

[Glennon Doyle]

And at what age do you recommend starting these conversations?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Well, here's the deal. In the world of social media and mass information dissemination, all the time you want to say it before the Internet says it. And so as soon as your young person has access to externalized information, I believe that's when you should start having these conversations at age appropriate levels. So, you know, five year olds are like, where do babies come from? That's the time to start having a conversation about sex. Right. In a way that is age appropriate. That doesn't. And here's the thing, sometimes I think we adults get in our heads and then we over complicate stuff when folks really need super simple answers. Right. The five year old's just like, where do babies come? There's a penis and there's a vagina. When a penis is inserted into a vagina, it has the potential to make a baby. And then a baby will grow inside of a body and eventually nine months later, it'll come out. That's where babies come from. Okay, boom, bye. I'm certain this kid's done. And that was already maybe more than they needed to know. Right. And so keep it simple, keep it concrete and leave the space for them to explore more if they want to explore more. But we don't have to like start dumping out the, you know, Encyclopedia Britannica. I'm dating myself of information. Yeah. Just simply what they asked and like, don't get into our panic. Oh my gosh. What does this mean? Yeah, stuff that I think we can do sometimes.

[Abby Wambach]

I really appreciated in your book the way that you talked about porn. Can you just, for the pod squad real quick, just say briefly what you said in the book about keeping your eye out for what porn is actually doing. How would you talk to a kid about that?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

So, you know, I think, and I may or may not be, because I haven't read my book in a minute and I'm in another country, so I haven't even seen it, but I'll tell you what's present right now.

[Abby Wambach]

It's good, Sonia, it's really good.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Thanks. But you know, I think one of the things to talk about is how sex and so many things in our society get used for money, right? Get commercialized, right? And so one of the ways in which sex, which is about, like I said, pleasure and trust and vulnerability and connection gets used for money in our society is through pornography, where people are paid to have sex with each other, whether or not they trust or know each other, whether or not they have relationship. And then it gives us a distorted view about what sex really is. Right? Because the job is to make money from this experience, not to connect, not to feel loving, not to even necessarily experience pleasure. And so what we're seeing in porn is not a realistic experience, experience of sexuality. It's an experience to sell a thing. And sometimes, like many of the other systems in our society, when we're trying to sell a thing, it can involve exploitation, it can involve oppression. Oftentimes the exploitation and oppression of women happens a lot through pornography. Also. The like reaffirming of messages of men about women's bodies as objects, about only being allowed to feel if it's about feeling something sexual. All of those messages can get reinforced through pornography because it's trying to sell you something. And generally when something's trying to sell you something, it doesn't care so much about the deeper issues of human connection, of love, of trust, the vulnerability. And so porn can give us a distorted vision. And there are way better, more nuanced, exciting ways to learn about sexual are going to give you more of what's really happening than pornography will do.

[Abby Wambach]

You see how when Sonya's talking and you're hearing her, you're not presenting it in a fear based way that I was a third grade teacher. So you can present things in a way not you, you, you universal, where your fear comes out so much that the kid is automatically curious about that.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Thing, it's like, ooh, you so scared of this. What is that?

[Abby Wambach]

If you have banned books, energy about porn, your kids are going straight.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Your kid is on the porn site right now.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

As soon as they got done talking to you. Absolutely. They are logging in immediately. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So I just appreciate how you're saying.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Well, because the fear makes a thing enticing. Right? It's like, oh, they said I shouldn't do it, so I should totes do it. As opposed to, yes, it exists. And here's actually what it is. Not from a place of fear, just from here's what it is. But again, we go back to what we have not tended to in ourselves shows up in the conversation. So all of our anxiety, our stuff around sex, our stuff around pornography, if we haven't sat with that, and this, it is useful and helpful to say when a kid comes and asks you a question that feels like it's activating all your stuff to say. Thank you so much for that question. I'm going to sit for a minute because I want to really be able to give you a good, honest answer that I thought about. Can I come back to you in an hour or can we talk about this tonight at dinner or can I talk about it to you tomorrow when you get home from school? Buy yourself some time to go sit with yourself, to go get yourself in order to touch into the places where it is leaning up against your stuff and get quiet, get centered, get aligned so that you get to come to this young person from your most grounded, aligned self and not your reactionary, fear based self. It's going to help all the tricky conversations go so much easier. Absolutely. And so chill out on the urgency, energy and buy yourself enough time to come back to yourself so that again, you can find your own reliable narrator and then bring that version of yourself to the young person.

[Abby Wambach]

I love that that's helpful.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm just wondering how we got to the place where we viewed these things as like, you have the sex talk and you have the whatever. It's so odd that these things are just omnipresent, that they're some of the most important things in life. And we're like, well, thank God we held our breath and got through that 30 minute conversation and never have to talk about it again. How do we weave these things so they're just part of what we talk about all the time?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, well, you know, if we're organized to these subjects through the lens of shame, then of course we don't want to talk about Them.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, shame.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I'm ashamed of this. I'm ashamed of sex. I'm ashamed of money. I'm ashamed of what we've done to the climate. I'd rather ignore it or pretend like we didn't do it. So we, whatever it is that we are bringing our shame to, we know that it's inevitable. And so, yes, we're going to, you know, grin and bear it, suck it up and have the conversation, but we prefer to never have to have that conversation again. Because every time we talk about it, it touches our stuff. And this is why we keep saying that the work we don't do on ourselves impacts our young people. It becomes their template for how it is they move through the world. And so if you find yourself with deep shame in these subject areas, then you're right. You're not going to want to weave it into life. Every time it shows up, you're going to be like, turn the TV off. You know, I remember when I was a kid, I think we were watching like, Purple Rain or something, and I remember my mother putting her hands over my eyes over the sex scenes or something like that. And I was like, I'm so confused because whatever, we're watching what's happened there, right? Because I was allowed to see all the rest of it, but now something has come into the screen that I'm not allowed to see. What is that? And I think that there is this invitation to say, what are the subjects? Like, I would love if all parents, as soon as you just were like, oh, I'm about to bring a young person into my life. Where are my edges? Where are my pain points? Where my shame still. And I'm going to say that I'm going to intentionally work on tending to and healing these aspects of myself so that I can show up not from my fear, not from my shame, but as a legitimate, like, intentional guide to this person. I've decided I'm going to be an intentional guide for.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

When we said yes, in whatever ways we said yes, we said yes, I'm going to guide you. That means I got to actually do the work to clear the things in my path so that I can lead you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be a leading from a podium where you're an expert. A guide can just be right on the path with you. But just a couple steps forward.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Couple of steps ahead. Just a couple steps ahead.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And, Sanjay, do you think. I think one of the challenges with the paradigm we've had about this, that there's A talk is. That's not how people are. Like, we evolved. Abby just had this beautiful. Abby has had so much fear and shame about what she was taught about heaven and hell from her family and her church when she was little. She's done so much work to break out of that paradigm. She talked to her mom about it recently, and her mom said, oh, honey, I don't believe in hell anymore. And Abby has been carrying this belief that her mother.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

That's for not catching me up. Right? That would have been great to know, Mom.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what she said. So I am sure that by omission and by what I taught my kids when I had them inside of a very fundamentalist church when they were little, if I just had the talk then and never showed how I have changed and grown and struggled out loud. It's okay to have a different talk now than you would have last year and maybe in fact, imperative.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Absolutely. I'm thinking about it like software, right? Like every once and again, my phone is like, hey, you need a software update. Yes. Right. And if I don't do the software update, then things stop working. My apps don't open. All kinds of wild stuff happens. Right? And that's very much what these conversations are. Where you were the model of you when you had the first conversation will not be the same model in five years. Certainly maybe not in 10 years, might not be in five months. And so as your information, as your system, your software gets updated, all the things connected to your software need to be updated too, including your young people. Oh, my ideas have changed. We haven't talked about that in a while. You know what? I'm thinking differently about that. What are you thinking about that? One of the things that I do in the book of Radical Answers is I really try to instill in young people that they have the ability to be critical thinkers and to ask questions and to be curious and to actually dissect the world they're living in. Every time we as adults come and say, hey, I've changed my mind, we give young people permission to change their minds about things. Every time I'm like, you know what? I used to think this, but I don't think that anymore. Then all of a sudden, there is a softening of the edges of possibility for young people, and they're like, oh, things shift. Things change. They shifted in my parent, they shifted in my mom. Oh, that means they might shift in me. Oh, that's okay. So there's a permission giving in our own transformation for young people to transform for young people to have thought a thing at one point and then think a new thing every time we demonstrate that, we say it's totally all right. Which means we cultivate the evolution of our young people. And ultimately that's what we're here to do, is evolve. All of us. All of us.

[Abby Wambach]

That's the success. It is not success to keep old software and stick to it and say that's the thing forever. That is not success.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

That's called obsolescence. That thing will no longer work and then it will like, this is the thing I think is fascinating is like even inside of the imagination of the market, the things that we do with humans don't transcribe. You have to update the thing or else it becomes non viable and then it goes off the market. Guess what? That might be true for humans too. If you don't update the thing, it becomes non valuable and then it goes off market. So what does it look like to just create the space where change is inevitable? Because guess what? Change is inevitable. And the more that we try to create a world that pretends like that isn't the truth, the more we create suffering for ourselves and for young people.

[Amanda Doyle]

And the other thing that is essential to survival and essential to evolution, like the updating, is what data we collect, what inputs. Another thing a guide does is just say look and points to something. Our kids are being raised in a culture where it's very specific things that, that schools and government and whatever are pointing to and a entire universe beyond that that they will never be pointed to unless we just say, hey, look. Huh? What do you think of that? Hey, look, look over there. And so I think for me, it's honestly been. I have a 12 year old and a 10 year old and this period right now of that has been the most fun, intimate part of parenting for me. Just talking about what is there and things in the news and what they think of them because they're thinking about them anyway.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yes, they are. We are not going to, you know, inoculate our young people from the realities of life. It's everywhere. That is. What we've made in the world of social media is a world where everything is accessible all the time. So if everything is accessible all the time, right? And everything is vying for your attention, in the economy of attention, the adults in young people's lives have to figure out what their currency is. We've got to figure out how we are and what we want our young people to understand and experience is as valuable as all the other Millions of things trying to get our young people's attention. And the more that we are honest, transparent, curious, engaging, want to know their thoughts. Right. That's why kids like the Internet. That's why they like social media platforms, because somebody wants to watch them all the time and look at them, do something somewhere out there. If we get to be those people, then we have not shuffled them off to the digital space to get that need met. Which means that they're going to come to us with that place of curiosity, with that thing they're uncertain about, with that thing they want us to see. Because we've become the exciting audience, the audience that's actually interested and invested. That piece of work is how you get young people to listen to what it is you're offering in guidance rather than to be guided by these billions of other locations that usually just want to use them for profit.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it's like an inside thing where you're able to be like, just the tiny little things. Like when you're walking through a area with stores and there's benches, but then there's little raised things on the benches, and they're like, what are those? You say those are there so that unhoused people don't lay on the bench.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Bench.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, you tell them the truth about that. And then they're like, yes, why wouldn't we want unhoused? Do you mean there's unhoused people in our neighborhood? Yeah, there sure are. But we don't want them here because it makes us feel less comfortable. Why does it make them feel less comfortable? Then it opens up this whole world where you're sharing this, like, open secret, but that no one else is talking to them about. And then you have this shared thing where they're now their eyes are peeled for what else is going on around here, and they're looking for it. And it's really interesting.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah. And our kids are naturally, you know, like, they're inquisitive and naturally relatively compassionate. People are always like, kids are mean. And like, yes, absolutely, some of that. But actually, the thing we notice first is, like, young people, they're like, oh, I hit that person. And then the baby cries. And they're like, I'm so sorry. They feel terrible. Right. There's a natural compassion. But if we don't point out the ways in which the world is incompassionate, then we normalize lack of compassion. We tell them that that's okay. Right? That you shouldn't question it and you shouldn't think about it. And Actually, what we want are young people who question and think. Those are the young people that actually that's how you know you can have a young person who makes it safely into adulthood is because they question and think.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. You want them to see the water they're swimming in.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Absolutely. Otherwise the sharks will get them.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. That's right. Before they become the sharks, which is even worse.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Or they become the sharks, which to is still the shark's gun.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yes, of course. Shits on.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

Double the cash back is something so good you might do a triple take. It pays to Discover see [e-mail] credit card. This episode is brought to you by Ring Cameras and Doorbells. A lot happens while you're away from home. That's why Ring makes it easy to check in from anywhere. Whether you're saying hi to an unexpected guest, making sure those packages are safe, or keeping your pets company. My favorite, while you're out grabbing groceries, it's all a few taps away right from your phone. Be there with Ring Explore cameras, doorbells, alarm kits and more right [e-mail].

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I need to know for my own personal self because I really believe that when I'm listening to you talk, how do I talk to my kids about this? I'm also just like, how do I think about this? Okay, I'm clear that this book is for the kids, but it's just really also for the adults.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

It's for all of us. Yes, it's for the kids and all of us.

[Abby Wambach]

So how do you coming from the Pentecostal Church, being this incredible acorny, radical self love prophet. All right, my kid comes to you and says, what the hell with God? Like, what's God? What does Sonya Renee Taylor say right now at this point in her evolution right now?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Well, you know, I'm most likely always to turn the question back to the kid first. Certainly in that place. What do you think God is? What do you know about this already? Where are you? Right. Which says, I actually am curious about you. I again become the interested audience. Right. Immediately. And then Sonya Renee Taylor says, there are so many ideas about what God is and I can tell you what mine is and I want you to find what's true for you. Here's what's true for me is that God, as I describe God, is a manifestation of the divine. It is whatever the energy is. The thought that there should be oceans and bumblebees and gerber daisies and farts and rainbows that also thought that there should be a Sonya, whatever that energy is, that's God to me. God creates and creates and creates and then means for creation to grow and evolve and learn and to be deeply connected to how amazing and magical it is. And part of the challenge of creation is that sometimes we forget we're amazing and magical, and then we rely on other stuff. But God is the energy of love that decided that all of life should exist. That's what God is to me. And I want you. I want you to think about it a little bit and maybe like, let's check in next week. Like, just be out in the world. And then let's check in next week and tell me sort of what you're thinking about God now.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's beautiful. Because when they're coming to you with a question, you can bet. And I remember this from my teaching days, too, that's not coming from nowhere. They are having inner ideas. Yeah.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

There's an inner dialogue already happening. It's just now being expressed. And so, again, affirming that that inner dialogue is allowed to exist, that you want to know what it is that they should dig into it, that it is a fertile, fecund ground that they should get into. That's what we want to do. We want them to get connected to these things that are in here so that they don't just stay in here. And then they believe that no one really wants to know. And then they squash them down, and then it gets tamped down and tamped down, and then they no longer hear what's in here. Then the only guidance is what's out there. Right. We want to keep cultivating that.

[Abby Wambach]

I sometimes feel bad for. It's like you and I, and probably everyone on this pod does have sort of literal love language with words.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

It makes me feel like it's unfair for people who are with young children who. That's not their sister. Can you tell Sonja about what John, your husband, does with music?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Because he's not a big words guy. But first, I want to say that question about God. A couple months ago, it was my son just out of nowhere. I was like, it was the end of the night. And he said, do you believe in God? And I was like, wow, that is a huge, really good question. What do you Believe. And he said, I wrote it in my notes section because I was like, okay, I want to document this for him in the future. But he said, yes, I believe in God. I feel God the most when I believe in something strongly, like rights for other people.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I love that.

[Amanda Doyle]

If you feel something strongly, that is evidence of God. I was like, that is a great. I was like, cool, man.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Let me think about it. I was trying not to be like, react too strongly in any direction.

[Abby Wambach]

Have you ever noticed that these little shits only ask these questions at bedtime because they know that they've got us?

[Amanda Doyle]

They're like, she's a sucker for this. I can ask her 47 of these.

[Abby Wambach]

I'll ask her about.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I'm 11. I'm not going to sleep no time soon.

[Amanda Doyle]

My husband has a cool way of bringing things up. His love is music. And so he's constantly trying to think of, like, if the kids will ask a question, he'll be like, I want you to listen to this song. And he'll give them his phone with the lyrics on it. And he doesn't say anything, but he just lets them read the lyrics and then ask questions. And so just last week, something happened.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Where?

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't know, something at dinner, something happened about, like, police or something. And they started asking some questions. And so he played them the American Skin 41 Shots song, which was about Amadou Diallo, who was the immigrant shot 41 times by NYPD. And he usually tries to connect it to, like, one of their heroes. So Bruce Springsteen is like, a big guy to them, and about how he was threatened not to sing that song in New York City and that the NYPD refused to give security to his concerts and boycotted the show and everything. And he played it anyway. And they were like, why would they not want to go to the show? It ended up being this whole conversation about Blue Line, et cetera. But they were reading the lyrics, and there was a part of this song where it's about this woman before school says, you know, on these streets, Charles, you have to understand the rules. And they were like, what is she talking about? I don't understand. So it was this whole conversation about, oh, if you were black children, by this time in your life, you would have already had the discussion of how you have to act with police versus how we. And so, I don't know, it just, like, the songs and then movies and that. There's just, like, ways that you can do it. If your kid's into sports, there's a ton of movies out there that are really beautiful end roads. And then they ask the questions. It's not that you're like, here's what the truth is. You just answer the questions.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah. And I love this idea that your husband found the thing that resonates for him and it's like, oh, this is the place where I actually have some juice and some access. Let me share this, let me share this. So it doesn't have. You know, I do feel bad for the people who aren't word people because, you know, we're word people. And I recognize that there are infinite ways in which we convey messages and communicate with each other. And so whatever that is for you, do that. Right? Like art, movement, songs, a walk in nature, watching how the natural world operates. There are endless ways. There's no one right way to be in this exchange with young people. Finding the methodology of communication that works for you and then inviting young people into that by asking them what the methodology of communication that works for them is. Finding the meeting point that's really, I think, the sweet spot. There's no one right way to do it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, especially now because kids, especially as they get into their teenage years, they're being exposed to telephones, cell phones and the Internet and social media, and their one on one connections become so vulnerable that it is really difficult to have some of these conversations that are super important. Right. And so, like, what we've found that works in a few ways is just going for a car ride. So there's no.

[Abby Wambach]

They can't get out, Sonia.

[Glennon Doyle]

There's no eye contact.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

You just lock them in.

[Abby Wambach]

Click, click.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, listen, Tish and I went on her tour together and we drove 4,000 miles and we talked about things that we had never talked about before. It was time. And you're kind of like locked in the seat and you're bored out of your mind. So, like stuff comes.

[Amanda Doyle]

You don't have to have eye contact.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, absolutely. It creates a literal and physical, like a physical container to hold the conversation. Right. And there's a way in which the attention is all in one location. Right. And that again, the economy of attention, where is. And how do we find the time to be the sort of central focus for young people? Right. So that these questions can arise because there's so many distractions, there's so many other places they rather be. There's so many other folks they want to text. All this is happening. And so finding the location where it's like, oh, here's the little. The sanctuary that we can Create. And I love the idea that the sanctuary is the car where it's like, oh, this is where we get to meet and be in intimate connection and dialogue with one another. That's sweet and beautiful. I love it.

[Abby Wambach]

I want to ask this question for our pod squad because one of the things that gets brought up the most is, and I know you talked about this in the book, what do we do when our kids are hurt by other children?

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, Jesus.

[Abby Wambach]

When they're left out, our kid comes home and somebody was terrible to them. And Sonya, you know, it activates every part of us that has felt left out. When we were seven and last week, and we just. How do you would you go about that? When a kid came and said, they left me out, they teased me. How do we know when it's bullying? What's your take?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing I do is just be like, oh, honey, I know, I understand. I'm sorry. Because I do know, because I was a kid who was bullied, who was left out, who was teased. Right. And so there's a place in me that absolutely understands that. And so the first location is just deep empathy and witnessing. I'm really sorry. That's really gotta not feel good. Or tell me more about how that felt for you. Tell me more about what it brought up for you. Because one of the things that I think we get to do in that moment, those experiences are the germination of the seeds of stories that we then keep for the rest of our lives. I don't belong. So, you know, as folks may know, I've been deep in my astrology bag for the last however many years at this point now, and I've been doing readings for people. And so right before I came on here, I just did a reading for someone, and her entire chart was this manifestation of being of service to others, being of service to others, being of service to others. And it was so clear that she had neglected being of service to herself. And the reason she had neglected being of service to herself is because she felt so ostracized and outcasted as a young person, as a teased, disliked young person, that so much of the labor of her life is about trying to earn favor with the collective again, trying to figure out how to work hard enough to be liked. She's 40 something. She's a whole adult now. That's how those stories start. And so what we want to do when young people bring us those moments is we want to hear them and we want to witness and we Want to notice where the seed of a story is starting and we want to interrupt it. That's what we want to do first. That's got a really big heart. Tell me how that made you feel. It made me feel like I don't belong. Tell me more about not belonging. What does that mean for you? It means I'll always be left out. I hear you saying always, you know, always means forever. And this was just a moment. So I hear you that it hurt. But we don't have to think that what happened right now has to be the rest of your life, because that's what always means, right? So let's acknowledge where we are right now in the present. But it doesn't have to be forever. I promise. It actually won't be unless we decide that it is right now. So can we make a different decision? How would you tell this story if it wasn't always right? And then we give them the opportunity to start reframing the story for themselves so that that seed doesn't keep growing and building on itself and building on itself till it becomes their identity as an adult. So that, to me, is one of the key moments that we have to intercept what becomes a lifelong pattern by acknowledging, witnessing, and then reframing the experience so that their most empowered self can actually be activated in it. Well, what's true? Who are those people? Are they actually people you want to hang with? Let's talk more about it, right? We get to sort of dig into it. But for me, the most important moment is catching where that story wants to, like, dig itself in the soil and start growing and saying, we don't have to do that, though. We can absolutely 100% feel what we felt. And we don't have to say that it's forever or it's always or I'm never, or make a story about who we are. We get to interrupt that part. So that, to me, feels like one of the most key pieces.

[Abby Wambach]

It's tied to your other part so much clear. Like I hear when you're saying that, I'm thinking if we are people who have not been reliable narrators of how people can be cruel and people can be shortsighted and the world can be very unfair. If we have not been reliable narrators about that, if we have been toxically positive, if we have avoided, if we have been like I was when the kids were little, everything's fair. It's all fair. Everything's good, okay. Then when this shit happens to them, when they are at school and they are left out when they see the spikes on the bench, when they experience the world as it is, they will not know that that's the way the world is. They will think there's something wrong with them.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

It's them, exactly. It's me. I'm the failure. Something's wrong with me. And then when you try to tell them otherwise, you're not believable, you're not reliable.

[Abby Wambach]

So the child experiences, like I'm thinking back to my teaching days. The kid is in the classroom and goes through what all kids go through at some point, some to unacceptable degrees that are some just a little bit exclusion, left outedness, unkindness, unfairness, injustice. The kid who hasn't had a reliable narrator at home, who has presented the world as it is in developedly appropriate ways says, oh, this is the world. This is uncomfortable and this hurts, but this is the world.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

And this is the world towards me.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

But the kid who has not had a reliable narrative thinks, what is my doing wrong?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

It's me.

[Abby Wambach]

Why am I like this? Why is this happening in this world that my mom told me is fair and perfect and beautiful? They both go together absolutely inevitably. Right, Sonia?

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah, absolutely. If we say, here's reality, when young people encounter reality, they understand the context they're in. Yeah, this is reality. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It just means, you know, my mom told me sometimes this is how stuff goes. All right, I understand that. But if we have not presented the world in its reality, then when young people get confronted with reality, the only place they have to look is themselves. It must be me, it must be something I did. That's what young people are trained to do. Right? Like it's part of the developmental orientation of life is that we are first self reflexive. It's about me, it's about something that's going on here. If we haven't said there are other things happening that are going to be outside of your control that are going to be unfair, that you're not going to actually understand. If you don't prepare them for that, then the natural instinct to be self reflexive will kick in. It must be me. It's the reason kids blame themselves for their parents divorces. It's the reason that they blame themselves for when they've been abused. It's the reason that they blame themselves for when harm happens in the family. Because we haven't presented the rest of the world as independent players who also are moving through things. Which just means I did it, I created it.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm not a words person like you are and Glennon, you are, and you are Amanda. And I sometimes feel in my body a little reluctance to want to have some of these difficult conversations, these honest conversations with our kids. And I sometimes defer to Glennon to do it at times because she is better with words. But what I will say is, when I did go on that trip with Tish, I grew so much closer to her because we were able to share each other, and I fumbled and it wasn't perfect and all of the things. But I just want to say, like, if you are curious and you might want to start creating the bond and that relationship with your kid that you're talking about, these really difficult things, please get this book. Read this book that Sonya has written because it is important to know what your kids are thinking, and that is a good basis to start thinking about how you want to start talking about this. Because it's not going to maybe come to you like this, like it comes in a lightning strike to Glennon, but it will slowly come. And as they age and get older and they start asking you questions, you're.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Going to be prepared.

[Glennon Doyle]

Get the freaking book, you guys.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's all curated from kids, so it's their questions.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yeah. What Abby, you're pointing out, I think is so important is that there's a difference between a reliable narrator and a perfect narrator. Your job is not to be a perfect narrator. Your job is not to have all the answers, to have the perfect, most eloquent, you know, description or response to your young person. Your job is to be as authentic as you can be inside of the connection. Which means if authentic is fumbling, sort of trying to figure out the words, like what you do is, then you say, oh, if that's their experience, too, they get to have model to them that it's okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

They get to have model to them that it gets to be fumbly and messy. And I don't have to be the most eloquent to still be allowed to be in connection with others. That is so important, so invaluable. So reliable narrator does not mean perfect narrator does not mean most eloquent narrator. It means honest, authentic and connected and trustworthy with the young person you're talking to.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good.

[Abby Wambach]

We love you, Sonya Renee Taylor.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

Yes, I love y'all.

[Abby Wambach]

We're so grateful every time you give us an hour of your time. I just. I know how important it is, and I'm just grateful. Thank you for this hour. It's gonna help so many people and everybody go get the book.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you.

[Sonya Renee Taylor]

I appreciate you supporting the book, supporting my work, and I just appreciate the light you all are in the world. Thank you. Keep shining.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right back at you.

[Abby Wambach]

See you next time. POD Squad if this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman. The show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.