Patrick Gagney (3:12)

All right, so very simply put, a sociopath is somebody who has difficulty connecting to social emotions, who sees or uses manipulation strategies and destructive behaviors as a sort of maladaptive coping mechanism. And that isn't always understood. I understand that a lot of people, when they talk about sociopathy, it's, oh, sociopaths can't feel. But the truth is we very much can in that there are inherent emotions, meanings. Everyone is born with them. These are things like anger, anticipation, joy, trust, fear, surprise, sadness, disgust. These are inherent. But there is another set of emotions known as the social emotions. Embarrassment, love, shame, jealousy, guilt, empathy. These are learned emotions. Sociopaths have a harder time connecting to these emotions. In the book, I refer to it as an emotional learning disability because I remember being a kid watching the other kids sort of grasp these emotions instantly, and I didn't. I had a very, very difficult time. It's sort of like needing glasses. Without my glasses, I'm physically capable of reading, but it's just that sometimes I have to squint. And that's a lot like how I experience the social emotions. And it can be challenging because I'm not living in a world that's native to me, so to speak. But I also want to clarify that sociopathy is different from psychopathy. A psychopath is believed to suffer from certain biological impediments that make it impossible for them to move through complex emotional development. So while they can feel those inherent emotions just like everyone else, they are incapable of learning the social emotions, whereas sociopaths are capable and they just struggle. All of this, I have to point out, is made all the more complicated by the fact that the term sociopath is no longer used due to stigma. They recently reclassified sociopathy as secondary psychopathy, which I'm not sure does much for stigma, but it also makes it a lot harder to understand and also to research. When you're looking up research, you don't know what you're necessarily reading about all the time.

Glennon Doyle (5:33)

Tell us how this. You experienced this as a kid? Because I know what it's like to figure out what you are and suddenly things make sense, and then you feel really bad for your younger self who thought they were lost. Tell us how you experienced being a kid. Maybe tell us about the pencil incident. Just what was it like?

Patrick Gagney (5:57)

I remember it probably. Probably didn't really resonate with me until I was Sort of actively in school and relating to other people through socialization. But I just remember a very keen awareness that I was not like the other kids. I had a younger sister, so I understood what complex emotional development looked like, and I also understood that I didn't have that. So my sister seemed to take to the learned emotions, especially guilt and shame, like a fish to water. I mean, it was instant for her. And I remember not getting it at all. But with that also came the realization, not only do I not get this, but I also understand that I can't talk about it, because the few times I tried, it was very clear that adults were not comfortable around kids who started talking about how little remorse they have. And it was very much like a double bind for me in the sense that I was constantly told, you need to be honest. You need to be honest about your feelings. You need to be honest about your reactions. And yet when I did that, I was also met with instant disapproval and punishment. So I leaned into coping mechanisms. Deceit, manipulation, charm. And over time, those developed into a lifestyle. But I remember as a kid feeling like, what choice do I have? I can't be honest. I remember the. And I think I talk about this in the book, the truth shall set you free. That was never the case for me, ever. Ever. It was such a lie. And I also remember. I remember feeling so much theory about Santa Claus because, okay, so it's this whole. It's a lie. It's a lie that we tell every kid. And I remember watching them telling my sister, like, oh, there's a Santa, and da, da, da, da. And I was like, okay, so let me get this straight. I'm not allowed to lie about anything, but you can create this world where this man lives and comes down a chimney. Oh, and don't talk to strangers unless it's this insane person that comes out once a year, in which case we're going to sit you on his lap and you are instructed to tell him all of your secrets. I remember thinking as a kid, this is insane, and being told, no, you're the one. You're insane. You're the one that's. That's wrong on this. And no one really seemed to get that. But what I noticed was happening was I started to notice this pressure, this tension. And I thought for the longest time that the tension was associated with apathy, with the fact that I was void of feeling the social emotions. And. But looking back, I realized that wasn't the case. The apathy was never the problem. It was the belief System that if I didn't do something to jolt myself out of apathy, that I would be outed and I wouldn't be able to live my life the way that I wanted to live it. I was very aware of rules. I was very aware of right and wrong. I understood that, you know, the perks of society were only granted to those who acted the way they were, quote, unquote, supposed to. And I understood that I had to do that. So when I would feel this apathy start to rise or start to sort of just settle in, I would feel an almost immediate compulsion to act out. And I can't explain it. I can now, but as a kid, I couldn't explain it other than I would just feel compelled to act out destructively. And there were lots of ways that I did this. I would steal. I remember stealing backpacks was something that was very easy for me. And again, it wasn't the acquisition, it was the action. I never wanted these things. I would act out just minor indiscretions to the extent that I would capitalize on any opportunity to do something wrong, be it going into my neighbor's house, be it sneaking around at night just to sort of, I guess, activate some part of me that I felt needed to be activated. But on the day that I assaulted a child, I remember feeling that I had been doing. Engaging in all of these minor, in my perspective, transgressions, and they weren't working, or they weren't working the way that they had been. And I was standing next to this child who was. She was a bully, which is not to say she was deserving, but I remember she was poking and prodding, and I just remember taking a pencil and just turning and stabbing her with it and understanding that it was wrong. I wasn't getting off on this child being hurt or in pain, but some part of me understood that that would neutralize this pressure that had been building. And it did. And worse, it didn't just neutralize the pressure, but it resulted in a type of euphoria that I remember feeling and also understanding, oh, man, I can't get used to this. Like, this isn't something that I can. That I can do.

Amanda Doyle (11:20)

So was the apathy like a blank page, and that euphoria was at least putting something on it. You said you wanted. You were afraid of being outed, so doing these things would prevent you from being outed.

Patrick Gagney (11:34)

I would just remember. And again, I'm putting adult words on a childlike experience. So I just remember, when I think about it, it was yeah, you better do something. You better do something. You better do something. You better do something. It was the feeling like that, and it was just this understanding that the apathy. Again, it's hard now as an adult, because now when I'm apathetic, I really like it. It's like floating. It's wonderful. But as a kid, this understanding that I'm not allowed to enjoy this thing because this thing is going to result in me being essentially denied entrance to society. And again, it wasn't the approval or the companionship that I was seeking. I just remember thinking, I have things that I might want to do in life, and I'm not going to be told I can't do them because I'm not what you guys have decided is the right thing. I am what I am. I don't know what to tell you. So I'm just gonna act like all these other kids and I'm just gonna slide through, you know, with the herd and just this understanding that if I didn't do something to sort of jumpstart my emotional or, like, internal emotional state, that I wasn't going to be able to slide under the radar with the herd. Someone's going to say, hey, she's not. She needs to be in jail, or she needs to be in, you know, the psych ward or something. And again, these are. These are sort of childlike feelings that I had just based on what I was feeling, based on the reactions that I got from other people when I tried to express the way that I felt or didn't feel, understanding that the things that I was doing were wrong and would result in a great deal of unwanted attention?

Glennon Doyle (13:17)

Patrick, is the apathy. So is this feeling that you called apathy when you were little, but now you call tranquility, or this feeling, is it a feeling? Is it an absence of feeling? Is my first question, and then the follow up to that. Is this one of the things we're always talking about on this pod? Is this quote that's like, the problem is the picture in your head of how it's supposed to be. Okay, so my question. When I was reading your book, I kept thinking, okay, is the apathy the problem? Or is your belief that you shouldn't have the apathy the problem? Like, if a sociopath is born on an island with nobody around and no culture to tell that person how it should be, does the person just live comfortably with the apathy without the constant need to act out? Because the acting out is just cultures what told you what it should be? Do you know what I'm saying?

Patrick Gagney (14:12)

Yes. 100% yes to the second part of your question. Like, that is exactly what it is. It wasn't the apathy that was the problem. It was my reaction to the apathy. And that reaction was informed by society telling me, these are the feelings that you're supposed to have. If you don't have these feelings, you are denied entry.

Glennon Doyle (14:33)

Yes.

Patrick Gagney (14:34)

And to your first question about what is apathy? I've heard it described as, well, isn't that similar to depression? When I've heard people speak of depression, it doesn't sound the same in that apathy. My experience is that the inherent emotions are there in that I can feel glimmers of sadness and still be apathetic. I can feel glimmers of anticipation and still be apathetic because these are inherent emotions. It's the lack of the social emotions. It's more like all of these feelings may or may not be coming through my periphery, and I don't care. It's. I don't have any shame. I don't have any guilt. I don't care. And that's what that feeling of euphoria was when I assaulted that child, was I had done this. I committed this act. I had done it in front of tons of people, children and adults. I knew that I was gonna get caught for it. And in that moment, what happened was, is I don't care. It's like, I don't care. Yeah, I did it. You know why I did it? Because I don't feel like you guys probably. There's probably something wrong with me. And I don't care about that either. It was just this glimpse of what it would eventually look like to just fully accept myself. I didn't understand that as a kid, but I, looking back, I see it now.

Abby Wambach (15:48)

And that's what that's like.

Patrick Gagney (15:49)

What's so problematic?

Abby Wambach (15:51)

That's what's so problematic about it all. It's like in the world that we live in, it's not even the transgression that we are even most worried about. It's how the person responds.

Patrick Gagney (16:05)

Right.

Glennon Doyle (16:06)

Wow. And what is it like? I kept thinking as I was reading, there's just something so humongous about an entire culture telling you, if you tell the truth, we will understand you more if you tell the truth. Like, that is something we all use as, like, a safety. I don't know what we're doing with that, but it's usually true. But what is it like to be a person who knows for certain that the more I tell you, the less you will approve of me. Usually the more someone tells me, oh, we understand you, but your truth is more isolating.

Patrick Gagney (16:40)

Yeah, this is so much more isolating. Like, are you kidding? And again, kids are smart. We pick up on things, you know, kids know. And you test the waters, you'll, you'll say, I was raised in the Baptist church, so I understood these concepts and what you were supposed to do. And I remember I would try using fake vignettes like, well, what would you say to somebody who was like this? You know, and it's like, well, and then they would give me their full, you know, download on exactly what they thought, how they would interpret someone who didn't feel or didn't have remorse or didn't have shame. And it was always evil and devil and these just singular negative words. And I remember as a kid not even taking it personally, just being like, well, I won't be telling you anything. I'll just. It was the sort of a litmus test of how, where am I in this? And then it was, I would just look around and find the kid that seemed to be getting the most favorable response and just mirror whatever that kid was doing. It was like almost as soon as I sort of came online in terms of my understanding of how different I was. I also understood I had to manipulate, charm, lie, and instantly it was that they were just opposite sides of the same coin.

Abby Wambach (18:08)

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Patrick Gagney (21:47)

Yes. No. I can't even imagine her doing something like that. But yes, correct. All of those.

Glennon Doyle (21:52)

So that's Harlow's mind afterwards or neurotypical. You stab somebody with a pencil. What exactly is happening in your mind with your grown up perspective of relief because you're being yourself? I understood it as I'm trying to feel something but that's not it. That's not exactly it. Right. It's not just trying to feel something. It's. I am asserting who I am in this moment and I don't give a fuck.

Amanda Doyle (22:15)

Yes, I'm telling the truth. Because when I try to tell you the truth, you tell me that's not possible and you hate. So I have to tell the truth of my actions, which is I don't give a shit.

Patrick Gagney (22:24)

Yes, yes, that's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Glennon Doyle (22:28)

Okay, do you see superpowers of sociopathy? Because I want to hear about all the like, I know it can be dangerous people. This is not like something to glamorize. It's messy. And however, I will point to a few things. Like when you talk about the tranquility and things coming in and out and I'm like, and no guilt, is this what I'm trying to like I'm paying all these people to make me sit down and breathe for an hour so I can get to this non attachment place. Or when I think about what we think of as good people, quote, who feel a lot of things, I think I make some of my worst decisions from powerful emotions, not my best. Like I almost have to be in the non attachment to make my best decision. So do you see superpowers of this or is it just something to manage?

Patrick Gagney (23:22)

No, I think if I could go back in time and undo it, I wouldn't because I have seen what you're talking about. They talk about how sociopathy is so dangerous because the lack of emotion, the lack of remorse, that that means you're capable of anything. So are people who are full of emotions. You know, it's like crime of passion. Like, hello, there's such a hypocrisy associated with the, you know, so called disorders of aggression in and maybe not even hypocrisy, but just maybe a lack of self awareness. And I'm speaking of the general we or the general you and that. Do you guys not understand that your abundance of emotion makes you just as quote, unquote dangerous, if not more so than my lack of emotion? Wow. And what an elevated conversation to be having. Like that's the conversation I want. Let's sit down and sort of see what we can learn from each other as opposed to making one group of people the villain and one group of people normally. Yes, to your point. You know, I want to be really clear too. My intent is never to minimize sociopathy, but just to understand it more clearly. Sociopaths are known for being Singularly evil. And I get it. There are people who sit on the extreme side of the sort of sociopathic spectrum that have earned that reputation, but it's only one part of the equation. Yes, I actually do think that there are superpowers, to borrow your term, associated with a sociopathic personality, in that I don't experience shame or guilt or people pleasing or remorse. Certainly not to the extent that a neurotypical person does. But I think that so many times the conversation starts there, it's like, well, then you're dangerous. It's. No, I just have to use, you know, when you don't have those internal constructs, you have to find an external philosophy. I choose not to do bad things because I choose not to do them, not because I have some internal emotional system that's forcing my hand.

Glennon Doyle (25:30)

It's like being an emotional atheist compared to a Christian who is only doing good things because I'm scared shitless, I'm going to hell. Like, who's the better person? The person who's only doing it to save their ass or the person who's choosing to do it through no dogma, through no feeling that's going to come up in there just because it's the right thing that they've decided?

Patrick Gagney (25:52)

Yeah. I could not agree with you more. And I have heard so many times people using a similar argument but aimed at a different purpose, which is that good things that I do don't count because they don't come from an authentic place or they don't come from a feeling place. Yeah. And this is not something that I've really discussed publicly, but for a long time it's something that I did, was I would volunteer, like crisis counseling. I had a friend who volunteered with the lapd and he would let me know about different incidents and I would just show up, you know, I. I would offer to counsel or to sit there or. Or just to exist. And over time, I expanded my reach outside of la and I just started showing up other places, like large, chaotic, horrific events, just for no other reason than because I could be of service. And that I can be of service isn't attached to this. I guess maybe altruism in some way, but not. There wasn't an emotional connection. It was just more matter of fact, it was. I have a high emotional tolerance. I have a high tolerance for pathology. And I could extend that tolerance to others in these moments. And I've been told by people that, that I shouldn't do this work, I shouldn't talk about it because it doesn't come from an authentic place because I don't really care. And I find that to be just one of the core issues surrounding certain mental disorders, in that if you don't care in the right way, then it doesn't count. And it's why I wrote the book, because I really wanted people to understand that there's more to this personality type than just these sensationalized one dimensional examples that pop culture likes to churn out over and over and over again. There is so much more to this.

Amanda Doyle (27:41)

To this personality, and there's also so much more people. I was blown away when you said 1 in 20 people essentially are living this way. So why that's a lot. That's the same number ish of people who are depressed. Are all of these people just living like you were as a child, just trying to hide, hide, hide, hide it?

Patrick Gagney (28:03)

Well, if you consider that it's 5% of the population is, that's like the clinical assessment, that's what the research indicates. But when you consider that most of the diagnostic interviews for psychopathy and sociopathy take place within the prison system, there's no way that number isn't likely much higher. But yes, to your point, let's just stick with 5%, 100% the same as depressive disorders, bipolar disorders, borderline personality disorders. And I think that the reason that there isn't more is I read somewhere recently that viewing someone who is suffering as, quote, unquote, morally bad reduces compassion and desire to help in neurotypical individuals, which I found to be completely fascinating. And my guess is that that's why so few public health resources are devoted to those disorders of aggression, psychopathy, sociopathy, antisocial personality disorder. Because when neurotypical people are presented with someone like that, their ability to empathize goes straight down. And again, that's a conversation worth having because in essence, those individuals who are having this reaction are experiencing a sociopathic reaction. And as someone for whom socialization was really tricky to understand, I'm always really perplexed by the reasoning that, you know, sociopaths don't deserve any compassion or empathy because they don't have any compassion or empathy for anyone else. And yet these emotions are learned, they are modeled. So how can you expect somebody to demonstrate compassion or empathy if they've never experienced it for themselves? Like it's just and around and around and around we go.

Glennon Doyle (29:51)

And if you tell them, it doesn't matter if you learn it. What matters is if it's inherent in you.

Patrick Gagney (29:55)

No, that's. Yeah, that's the second. It's the double vine. It doesn't matter.

Glennon Doyle (29:57)

No.

Patrick Gagney (29:58)

The goalpost is always changing.

Glennon Doyle (29:59)

If you learn it, you're a fake and we don't like you. Right, but so is it something that's so massive it's bigger than. It's what we believe as a culture, you are only good if you feel a certain way. It doesn't matter what you do. It's what you feel. And so if we taught kids differently, would kids who didn't inherently feel these social emotions not have to act out in the first place? Because they wouldn't be being told that they were bad? Would it fix the even negative to culture effects of sociopathy at the root and then allow us to see the superpowers? For example, if I'm going into surgery, I don't want my surgeon to be a fucking empath. I don't want my surgeon going, oh.

Abby Wambach (30:42)

My God, I feel so bad for you.

Glennon Doyle (30:46)

I don't necessarily want empaths on the front line of activism. I don't want someone like me in all those places, honestly. So does it start so early with how we define what is a good person and a bad person?

Patrick Gagney (30:57)

Yes. And the research also indicates that sociopathy, even though you cannot diagnose a child as a sociopath, but it starts with oppositional defiant disorder. And what they're finding is that oppositional defiance is much more easily treated or treatable in young kids and young people. And I think that because it's this, nope, they're all monsters. They're all evil. Throw them all, and they don't deserve to have anything. We're missing the opportunity to reach those kids, to have that conversation early, to address that culture of there's only one way to feel, there's only one way to love, there's only one way to be. But one thing I've noticed is that there has been a shift, certainly in entertainment. I was asked by a parent, if you had a child who was acting out in the way that you were, what would you say? How would you connect to that child? And I explained it sounds oversimplified, but the first thing I would do with a child like me is I would sit her down and I would have her watch the new iteration of Wednesday Addams, the Wednesday series on Netflix. Because, make no mistake, Wednesday Addams, she meets all the criteria of the sociopathic personality. And yet that composite is so much more complete in that, yes, this is a child who is criminally versatile, who struggles to connect with the social emotions, struggles to connect with other individuals, low affect. She lies, she manipulates, she steals, and yet she is capable. It takes her a minute, but she is capable of loyalty. She is capable of deep relationships. She grieves when her, her pet dies. And yes, her pet isn't that stereotypical pet, but she still grieves. That pet. She fights like hell for her friends and her family. That to me truly is a more complete example of the sociopathic personality. So I would sit a child down and I would say, what do you think about this? How do you experience emotion knowing that there's no wrong answer? And this Halloween, when I was walking around and seeing all the little Wednesday Addams, not just wearing the costume, but embodying her, refusing to smile back at me, refusing to make small talk, just really owning that whole personality. It really gave me hope for other kids like me to see that representation as opposed to the Ted Bundy examples, as I like to call it.

Glennon Doyle (33:30)

That's so cool. That's really cool. What is the hardest part of being a sociopath in a marriage?

Patrick Gagney (33:43)

I think the hardest part isn't me, it's my husband, probably.

Glennon Doyle (33:46)

So you're just like everyone else is what you're saying.

Patrick Gagney (33:49)

Well, I just. He carries the greatest burden in that. I don't take things personally. My husband is a hot blooded Italian. He is very affectionate. It took him a long time to understand that I am not as affectionate as he is. But it's not personal. It's not, you're doing something wrong. Therefore I'm not as affectionate. I'm just not. I don't really express love that way naturally. Now he is my husband, he's my partner. I understand that there are different ways and I want him to feel love in the way that he wants to feel love. So yes, I have grown to become more affectionate. But I think for him, it's that constant reminder of. Don't take it personally. Don't take it personally because he also, I think he's someone who likes to regulate his moods based on mine. So he needs that constant validation vis a vis, I'm happy or I feel this way, I feel that way. And we have to have a lot of conversations where I have to remind them, no, how do you feel? Like anchoring with you and then we can talk about what's going on with me. But I think that having been raised in an Italian Catholic childhood where it was all the emotions were big and his emotions were minimized for different reasons than mine were, you know, because all of the adults were Loud and screaming. And he learned how to take his own temperature by taking the temperature of those around him. So to marry someone like me, that's a slippery slope, but don't.

Glennon Doyle (35:23)

Okay. I think this might be one of the reasons why I'm so fascinated by all of this and you and all this work is that I think I have bought the idea over a long time that being an empath, being empathetic is the goodest girl. It's, like the kindest thing to be. I am now in a phase of my life where I'm wondering if being an empath is horseshit, if that. It's just hypervigilance.

Patrick Gagney (35:52)

You're asking the wrong person if it's.

Glennon Doyle (35:55)

Just a group of people who were raised in houses where they had to be hyper vigilant of everyone else's feelings. Because me saying I am an empath, I feel what you feel is impossible. I don't feel what you feel. I feel what's coming up inside of me that is about me. I'm not a vampire. I can't, like, suck out exactly what you're feeling and put it in me. So in some ways, all we're doing, the empaths, is using everyone else to regulate our own self. It's actually quite selfish.

Abby Wambach (36:30)

Or dysregulate.

Patrick Gagney (36:31)

Yes. And again, you're talking probably to the wrong person, because this is very much how I feel. But. And I had this conversation, I think it's in the book where we were talking about acts of kindness, and my husband was saying, you know, I do these things for you. And I was saying, no, you do these things for you. You do these things because you want my joyous reaction when I do something. I don't tell anybody about it. And to your point, these empaths. And again, there's nothing wrong with being empathic. But, yes, that word has become almost revolting, because to me. So it's like, okay, oh, you're an empath, huh? Well, why didn't I see you at that huge traumatic event that happened in our neighborhood? I don't remember seeing you there because.

Glennon Doyle (37:20)

Patrick, it would make us too upset.

Patrick Gagney (37:23)

Correct?

Glennon Doyle (37:24)

Correct.

Patrick Gagney (37:25)

Yes. Yes. And I remember a couple years ago, a friend of ours passed just weeks after delivering a child because she had been complaining to the doctor, and the doctor basically blew her off. It was so horrendous. And I remember saying, I'm just going to go over the house, and everyone's saying, you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that. You should just leave them Alone. You should. And I'm like, no, no, I'm just going to show up. That's what you. No, you wait. No, you just show up. And I think to your point, it's not only am I not going to do that, but I don't want you to do it either. Because if you do it and I don't do it, then I'm going to look bad when the reality is it's not comfortable for me to just go to that house where this husband and child are alone and grieving. That's not a place I want to be. So I'm just going to stay back here. And you shouldn't go either. Because it's inappropriate. No, it's because you don't want to go. That's what's going on here.

Glennon Doyle (38:25)

Not because they can't handle it, but because you can't handle it.

Patrick Gagney (38:28)

Because you can't handle it. Yes.

Glennon Doyle (38:29)

Right.

Amanda Doyle (38:40)

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Glennon Doyle (40:59)

What is the differences that you see between you momming and other moms in your momming world? Momming.

Patrick Gagney (41:09)

I see a lot of moms sort of co opting the emotional experience. So a child has failed a test. Okay. And the child is not able to have their own emotion before the moms disappointment or anger or expectations fill that space. That's what I see and I understand it cognitively. I can imagine how if you have these emotions and your child is experiencing something that's activating. Yes, you're going to experience those emotions. But then it all, it becomes all about the parents and how they feel about what their kid is going through or how they feel about what they perceive as a failure. And mine is different. I don't have those reactions. And there are certainly pros and cons with that. There are times where I wish I could relate more, I could connect deeper. But I also know that my kids feel that they can come to me with anything because I'm going to have a response, but I'm not necessarily going to have a reaction. It's going to be their space.

Abby Wambach (42:32)

Dang it.

Glennon Doyle (42:32)

I mean, that's what I'm trying to get to my whole life.

Patrick Gagney (42:36)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (42:36)

I mean if I could just get rid of some of this guilt and shame distance, it would be great.

Patrick Gagney (42:41)

I hate hearing that.

Glennon Doyle (42:43)

So you don't need guilt and shame to be a good person? Not a good person. What are, what's the word? You're happy. Ish as anyone else. Right. You have beautiful relationships. You live a life of truth and freedom and service. So is what you're saying partly that guilt and shame are not needed to create connection?

Patrick Gagney (43:06)

Yeah. I think it's a control out of control. You know, I understand that. Yes. It must be nice to have guilt, shame, remorse, sort of forcing your hand and things. But it's not fail safe and I think it's used as a weapon. Yes. I think like anything in moderation. Sure. Guilt and shame can be very useful the problem is it's not ever used in moderation.

Amanda Doyle (43:33)

Yeah. One drop fills the whole bucket of guilt and shame.

Patrick Gagney (43:37)

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle (43:37)

You've talked a lot about how the many benefits and beautiful parts about this. What would you say is your biggest, like, grief, if you have any, about living this way? Maybe you don't.

Patrick Gagney (43:56)

No, I do. I do. Because something that's come up a lot recently is I've written this book, it's out in the world, and that's met with a certain expectation of emotion. And everyone's asking, you know, aren't you so excited? Aren't you so excited? And I'm not. I don't connect that way, but I wish that I could. And I've used this example of, like, the kid with her nose pressed up against department store glass. I see what excitement looks like. I see that. Yeah. And I don't. I don't have it. And I. I wish that I did. I do. Because it looks like it's. It looks like it's really fun. At the start of all of this, when I was getting that question a lot and I was having. I had a conversation with my husband, I was like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm. I'm just. I don't experience things this way. I don't know how many times, you know, I'm feeling myself wanting to go back to the old space of, like, I'm just going to lie and say that I'm excited, but I don't want to do that either, you know, So I made a list. Okay, well, what are you excited about? Because maybe it's not. You don't have. You can't connect to it on that, you know, sort of large global way. But there are certainly things that are exciting to you. And fellowship was exciting to me. Conversations like this were exciting in that, oh, I get to talk to other people who have interesting things to say and. And we can align on, you know, some things or. Or disagree on other things. But just the idea of being able to have these conversations, this is exciting to me, but I'm never going to be able to have those, or I, so far, have never been able to experience those sweeping emotions. I'm sort of glad that I'm at a place in my life where all of the milestones are done for a little bit, because there, no matter how many times I tried to tell myself to not, you know, have hope, that hope was always right there, that maybe this would be the time, this graduation or this wedding or this birth and it just never was. And I. I don't carry that disappointment in. In terms of, like, an emotional sense, because, you know, what are you going to do? But, yeah, I would have loved to have had that Hallmark moment when my son was born. That seems like it's probably pretty nice.

Glennon Doyle (46:06)

The little girl with the face on the window, looking in the window, looking into what other people's experience might be and wondering about it. Maybe a little bit of longing. Is that tied to the lifetime of finding some sort of solace in breaking into people's houses and searching their house, looking around in college, taking people's cars? Was it all kind of like an effort to get inside another person's experience and take a peek and see if it's really all that?

Patrick Gagney (46:41)

I think so, because when I look at the destructive behaviors that stuck, they were always related to other people, and it was never. A lot of times, people don't believe me when I say I didn't take things from the homes, you know, that I went into. And I. I wouldn't have dared because they were sort of sacred spaces for me. And I think that that's why, ultimately, even though I went into it kicking and screaming, working as a therapist was the equivalent of breaking into homes, only I was going into their minds and they were opening the door for me.

Glennon Doyle (47:14)

Yes.

Patrick Gagney (47:15)

I find neurotypical people to be really interesting. I enjoy hearing about what's going on and your reactions to things and how you react to them. So I think before I really understood that I was going into those houses because I liked seeing. I liked looking through people's windows. I used to do that as a kid. Just stand there. Yeah. I could have stood there all night just watching these normal interactions play out, and without having the pressure of a reaction or a connection, it's like, no, I just. I'm just interested. This is interesting.

Glennon Doyle (47:54)

I think my favorite thing about your book and you is that I felt so strongly the tension of, yes, I want certain things. I want meaning. I want relationship. I want this relationship with this guy. I want a career. I want these things that culture can offer. But I will not abandon myself. It's so easy when you're different in any way, to decide that success is full assimilation. That, like, success is. I do whatever it takes to become what you will celebrate. But what I freaking loved about your story was that that was not enough. Like, that's not what you were doing. You were like, I want these things. I will not abandon myself, though. I don't want to be you. I want to Be me. I kept thinking of when you were dealing with David or dealing with your mom. And I kept hearing the freaking, we have teenage girls. So I kept hearing the Taylor Swift line. I don't want to keep secrets just to keep you.

Patrick Gagney (49:00)

Yes, yes, yes.

Glennon Doyle (49:01)

Hearing that over and over again. So do you feel that tension? Like, do you think about that? Do you think about, I don't want to be you. I want to be me and have all the things that I want.

Patrick Gagney (49:13)

I mean, yes, but listen, I don't want to. As much as I appreciate the compliment, I don't want to give my young self too much credit because for a long time I would have done just about anything to have assimilated, but there was always, you know, again, I realized really quickly that I was different and that the, the fastest way to sort of separate myself from society, from friends, from family was to admit these things. And that's, I think, the big misconception about the antisocial personalities like that we are anti social. No, no. I'm all for society. I'm all for comfort and collaboration. I'm just against your rules of engagement. That's where I differ. And I think what kicked in for me was just rebellion and that once I sort of understood my personality type, once I had a better understanding of what that meant and what I like the normalization of how I was or was not feeling, that's really when it was, yeah, I'm not going to be like you. And guess what? I don't have to. I don't have to discomforts your problem. It's not my problem. And I just sort of stopped playing the game. And it was very liberating, you know, for me, just the idea that. And I saw this somewhere. What is it? Your religion doesn't tell me what to do. It tells you what to do. And that's very much how I felt. It's like, no, no, these societal rules are, these are your rules. I mean, certainly I understand the difference between right and wrong, but I don't, I don't have to do these things that you guys are all doing. And I find that that makes people not, not everybody, but it makes certain people very angry. The idea that, well, how come she just gets to do whatever she wants? And it's, you can do whatever you want too. You know, you have chosen to stay in this small box. You can get out anytime you want. But I think it's easier to just be angry at people who don't subscribe to those belief systems than it is to take A look at yourself and decide you want to change.

Glennon Doyle (51:08)

Correct?

Amanda Doyle (51:09)

Yes.

Glennon Doyle (51:11)

Cosine. So that is an amazing message to people who are in relation to or thinking about sociopathy from the outside. What do you want to say? What do you want to leave us with? For people who are listening, who are on the spectrum, It's a spec. You call it a spectrum, right?

Patrick Gagney (51:29)

Yeah. And that's what the research seems to indicate, that, yes, there are these extreme examples, but they get the most attention. Therefore, the personality disorder has become defined by only these extreme examples, when in reality, the research indicates that the majority of the sociopathic personality population falls on the mild to moderate side of the spectrum.

Amanda Doyle (51:48)

So I wonder if you could also, when you're speaking to those people, like, is there any. I know it's a very nuanced diagnosis, but is there anything that if someone's sitting there thinking, holy shit, I've never really thought about this, but could this be me? Because I'm resonating with a lot of what she's saying, like, is there something that you can give them to be, like, if this. Then maybe look a little further into it kind of situation?

Abby Wambach (52:11)

And also maybe their children, if they are seeing some tendencies in their children, like, what to do?

Patrick Gagney (52:18)

I think that, again, the reason that I wrote my book is because research, treatment interventions, different modalities. This population is so woefully underserved. I wish I could, say, call this phone number and ask for this type of therapist that's not available yet. But until it is, I would try to normalize the internal experience as much as possible, not the behavior. I never want to normalize destructive behavior, but I definitely remember that for me, once I understood that my. The kind of person that I was seemed to align with this checklist, as crazy as that might sound, I felt relief when I received my diagnosis. I felt relief when I saw myself in this checklist because it was okay. Like, I'm not crazy, or maybe I am, but at least I'm in good company. There's a reason that I don't feel things the way that other people do. And it's okay. It's not okay to engage in behaviors that are harmful to other people, but you can't do anything about the way you feel. And ultimately, there is nothing immoral about having limited access to emotion. It's not what we feel, it's what we do. And going through that sort of normalization process, for me, really took a tremendous amount of air out of the balloon. I noticed that my compulsions weren't as great. I didn't feel this need to act out as much once I was able to normalize that internal landscape. And if you are a parent who sees your child in this personality type or you have a partner or a sister or a parent, I think giving that person permission to describe their internal emotional world without out the Pearl Clutching is 80% of it. I remember reading in your book, you had said something, you said, I can feel everything and survive. And I remember thinking, I can feel nothing and survive.

Abby Wambach (54:14)

Wow.

Patrick Gagney (54:16)

It was really like, it's the same, it's the same experience, we're just experiencing it differently.

Glennon Doyle (54:22)

Yes.

Patrick Gagney (54:23)

And giving other people permission to read that line that way, I think would go a long way in just self acceptance, which is really, really important for any personality type. Not just a sociopath or a psychopath or someone with antisocial personality disorder.

Glennon Doyle (54:40)

I can feel nothing and survive. It's so good because it's like, well, you wrote it. No, I did the opposite. I'm working towards yours.

Patrick Gagney (54:48)

No, I know, I know, but it's just, it's the opposite side of the same course. Yes.

Glennon Doyle (54:52)

And similarly, like, I think so much about like when we're doing any work with queer communities or, and people are always bringing up, well, queer kids have such a higher rate of suicide and there's like this jump of like, so it must be the queerness that's making them depressed enough to da da da da. And it's like, oh, oh, oh, oh. It's never the queerness that's the problem. It's the culture saying you shouldn't be that makes them so upset that they feel like they can't live on this earth. And for you, what I hear you saying is it's not the lack of feeling, it's the culture saying you should feel that makes it so excruciating. It's always, it's not the queerness, it's the homophobia. It's not the thing, it's the reaction to the thing.

Patrick Gagney (55:40)

It's so gross that a certain group of people have decided that there's only one way to be. And then that group of people also just happens to be the group of people that are the least in touch with who they, they are as individuals. Like, is this the part where I take life advice from you? Like hard pass, hard pass.

Glennon Doyle (56:02)

Well, you know, I know you wrote your book for sociopaths to find a place to land and it is that I am sure, but it is also such a fascinating study of all of us and it taught as Someone who probably errs on the other side of the spectrum. For better and for a lot worse. It's made me think every single day since I read it. So thank you for it.

Patrick Gagney (56:27)

I'm so glad. I really. Yes, I did write it for the sociopathic population, but I remember thinking that as I was writing it. I really hope the neurotypical individuals get as much out of this because we're all in this together. We all share this space. And if the only people that understand this are people like me, then, you know, they probably already understood it on some level. I really wanted everybody to be able to approach this personality type with a different understanding because we coexist.

Glennon Doyle (57:02)

You did it.

Abby Wambach (57:03)

So good.

Glennon Doyle (57:04)

So good. Thank you.

Patrick Gagney (57:07)

Thank you guys.

Glennon Doyle (57:08)

Pod Squad will put a link to Sociopath, the book everywhere. Just trust me. It's so good.

Abby Wambach (57:15)

Read it, Listen to it.

Glennon Doyle (57:16)

Thank you. I hope you have a great day.

Patrick Gagney (57:18)

I hope you guys do too. Thank you.

Glennon Doyle (57:20)

Bye. Bye Fatsby.

Abby Wambach (57:22)

See you next time.

Glennon Doyle (57:28)

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dena Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

Unknown (58:35)

I walked through fire I came out the other side I chased desire I made sure I got what's mine.

Patrick Gagney (58:55)

And.

Unknown (58:55)

I continue to believe that I'm the one for me and because I'm mine I walk the line Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on mouth a fire Final destination we lack we stopped asking directions to places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy, joy and pain that our lives bring we can do a hard thing I hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem Sometimes things fall.

Patrick Gagney (60:21)

Apart.

Unknown (60:25)

And I continue to believe.

Glennon Doyle (60:30)

The.

Unknown (60:31)

Best people are free and it took some time but I'm finally fine. Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks Our map, our final destination We've stopped asking directions Some places they've never and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard things that you stopped asking directions Some places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our our lives bring we can do hard things yeah, we can do hard things yeah, we can do hard things.