INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!

Summary

Podcast Summary: "INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!"

We Can Do Hard Things
Host: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle (Treat Media)
Guests: Melissa Etheridge, Amy Ray, Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls)
Date: October 2, 2025

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Overview

This vibrant episode of "We Can Do Hard Things" brings together queer music icons Melissa Etheridge and the Indigo Girls (Amy Ray & Emily Saliers) with hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle. The conversation is wide-ranging, delving into creativity, identity, activism, spirituality, generational shifts in queer life, resilience in tough political and personal times, and the power of community. The tone is playful, honest, emotional, and at times, deeply moving.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stage Presence, Nerves, and the Performer’s Mindset

[02:50-04:44]

• The guests discuss nerves before a show, especially in high-pressure environments like Los Angeles.
• Melissa Etheridge shares how performing in L.A. brings up memories from her early career and the emotional complexities of facing an audience:

  “LA is just a real mind trip because I’ve spent years here... dreaming and hoping. And so you get on stage and… you’ve always wanted to be here, and everyone's leaving and I’m like, no, no, no, this is the mind trip.” (Melissa Etheridge, [04:07])

• Abby ties this to sports, describing how nerves and excitement are the same physiologically; “It’s the exact same thing.” ([02:59])
• The tendency for performers to focus on the negative or on the one person not applauding is explored.

2. Queer Experience and Internalized Messaging

[05:20-06:39]

• The hosts and guests discuss negative internal scripts, gendered socialization, and added layers experienced by queer people.
• Melissa Etheridge reflects on her upbringing, supportive father, and complex relationship with her mother—a pioneering but underappreciated professional.
• They note how growing up as queer can add trauma:

  “…it’s a bit of a trauma, you know, just the old language, the old voices.” (Emily Saliers, [06:52])

3. Gender, Attraction, and Identity

[07:42-10:58]

• The conversation covers gender attraction, confusion, and the spectrum of queer identity.
• Emily Saliers openly discusses attraction to both men and women, and the challenge to heteronormative frameworks:

  “...around a certain man... I’m like, am I gay? And then. But I know I am. I know I am.” ([08:03])

• Abby explores the difference between desiring and wanting to embody certain gender traits.
• Glennon shares the story of taking the Kinsey Test and awakening to her queer identity, humorously relating it to her conservative religious past.

4. The Creative Process

[12:02-18:34]

• All three artists describe songwriting as a conduit for catharsis and world-processing.
• Etheridge traces her roots to a musically-rich, genre-blending upbringing and describes collecting lyrical inspiration from daily life, poetry, and art:

  “If I want to be inspiring, I have to be inspired.” (Melissa Etheridge, [13:37])

• Emulation of idols (like Joni Mitchell) and the gradual finding of one’s unique voice is a shared theme.
• Emily and Amy tie their creativity to formative church music experiences and familial influences.

5. Spirituality and Faith After Religion

[21:14-27:30]

• The guests articulate nuanced, deeply personal faith journeys.
• Etheridge self-identifies as a “spiritualist,” describing belief in intelligent design and interconnectedness, intensified by surviving cancer.
• Amy Ray draws from multiple traditions, holding on to the “rebellious advocate” aspect of Jesus, while also appreciating Buddhism, Judaism, and more.
• Emily Saliers expresses a “Holy Spirit” relationship; not dogma-based, but rooted in seeking goodness, awe, and understanding the mythological side of religion.
• Repeated references to the church as a hub for community aid and resilience.

6. Activism, Generational Change, and Queer Progress

[32:04-40:46]

• Etheridge recounts the evolution of queer visibility, the critical impact of AIDS activism, and her astonishment at progress:

  “I didn’t think in my lifetime that I would be able to say, I have a wife.” (Melissa Etheridge, [35:00])

• The group discusses the unique perspectives and approaches of younger queer and activist generations, with Amy Ray emphasizing the importance of listening over speaking and supporting youth-led movements.
• Emily Saliers celebrates the courage and authenticity of politically engaged, non-binary young people.

7. Resilience, Coping, and Leadership as Women

[41:55-47:15]

• Etheridge and the group reflect on coping with challenging times—fascism, menopause, political setbacks—by focusing on actions and attitudes within their control rather than despair.
• Etheridge details a philosophy of “as above, so below,” and the power of example for their children:

  “Words don’t teach. I can tell them, you have to love your life, but if they’re seeing me falling apart every day, they’re going to go, that doesn’t fit.” ([45:09])

• Melissa reframes menopause as an era of wisdom and leadership, pushing back against modern erasure of postmenopausal women’s power.

8. Community, Division, and Staying United

[61:20-67:29]

• The group candidly addresses tensions within the LGBTQ+ umbrella community and broader progressive circles, recounting historical exclusion of drag queens, internal debates over political strategies, and ongoing threats to trans rights.
• They emphasize intersectionality and the vital necessity of sticking together:

  “It is especially hard right now with the trans movement so under attack... how can a group of people who have been so oppressed, killed, separated, ostracized, treat another group so inhumanely?” (Amy Ray & Emily Saliers, [64:07-64:25])

• Glennon introduces the ‘Freedom Fleet’ metaphor: diverse activists in many different “boats,” all moving together with the river of progress.

9. Inspiration, Healing, and Recommendations

[69:19-78:27]

• The artists share sources of artistic inspiration, from Gabor Maté’s "The Myth of Normal" (Melissa Etheridge) and Imani Perry’s writings (Amy Ray), to moments of joy watching children play or walking in nature.
• Emily Saliers underscores the value of creative community, diverse friendships, and art curation for igniting joy and purpose.
• Plant medicine, especially psilocybin and ibogaine, is discussed by Etheridge as promising for healing addiction and trauma—alongside a brief promotion of the Etheridge Foundation’s work in this field.
• Amy Ray advocates for dog rescue, tying concrete, local acts of service to the larger drive for good.

10. Authenticity, Fame, and Responsibility

[56:28-61:13]

• Glennon and Abby reflect on balancing their public roles, maintaining authenticity, and the inevitability—and necessity—of sometimes making others uncomfortable to spark change.
• Abby describes adapting to fame and public scrutiny, leaning on her unique resilience from years in sports where being booed was simply part of the job.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s the exact same thing. Physiologically, the physiological response is the exact same between nerves and excitement.”
  — Abby Wambach ([02:59])

• “Are you straight because your parents were straight? That’s a silly question.”
  — Melissa Etheridge (paraphrasing her daughter, [32:51])

• “Words don’t teach...I want to be an example. All I can do is teach them by my example...That’s the power that can’t be taken away.”
  — Melissa Etheridge ([45:09])

• “We have to respect all the input for good change, no matter what form it takes...we have to respect the people in different boats.”
  — Emily Saliers ([68:09])

• “Just freaking adopt a dog. They kill them every day…You can go online and find any breed you want.”
  — Amy Ray ([81:31])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Artist introductions, nerves, and stage presence – [00:00-04:44]
• Queer internalized anxieties, gender, and attraction – [05:20-10:58]
• Creativity and origins of songwriting – [12:02-18:34]
• Faith, spirituality, and evolving beliefs – [21:14-27:30]
• Queer activism past and present, intergenerational shifts – [32:04-40:46]
• Coping with politics, menopause, and personal leadership – [41:55-47:15]
• Community divisions, intersectionality, unity in activism – [61:20-67:29]
• Art, healing, and recommendations for inspiration – [69:19-78:27]

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Conclusion

This episode is a rich, multi-layered conversation between musical and activist trailblazers who aren’t afraid to get real about fear, vulnerability, joy, making a difference, and showing up as their whole selves—even as the world keeps shifting. Listeners will come away inspired, challenged, and reminded both of how far queer communities have come and the critical work that still lies ahead.

Fans of any of the guests—or anyone wondering how art, activism, and real life intersect—will find fuel, comfort, and practical wisdom here.

Transcript

[Host]

Across four decades, 16 studio albums and over 15 million records sold. The Grammy winning Indigo Girls, Emily Saylors and Amy Rae continue to blaze the trail for generations of queer artists in the mainstream. Committed and uncompromising activists, Saylors and Ray work on issues like racial justice and reproductive rights, immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, death penalty reform and Native American rights.

[Sponsor Voice]

Indigo Girls was the first of six.

[Host]

Consecutive gold and or platinum certified albums. Their latest record, Look Long is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the duo reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. Melissa Etheridge stormed onto the American rock scene in 1988 with the release of her critically acclaimed self titled debut album. Etheridge hit her commercial and artistic stride with her fourth album, Yes I Am. The collection featured the massive hits Everyone on Earth Knows, I'm the Only One and Come to My Window. And that album brought home the Grammy award for the best female rock performance. Known for her confessional lyrics and raspy, smoky vocals, Etheridge has remained one of America's favorite female singers for more than two decades. In June of 2020, Etheridge launched the Etheridge foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorder.

[Abby]

We have them both here today. It's freaking so exciting. We went to their show last night and P.S. yes, we are tour the Melissa. I mean the Indigo Girls and Melissa Etheridge together.

[Host]

So good.

[Abby]

And then they were just here. They were just. They were just here.

[Host]

Enjoy.

[Amy Ray]

Amy and I, this is on.

[Emily Saliers]

Well, I'll speak for us both, but a little bit like bulls and china shops when we meet people that we're excited about.

[Melissa Etheridge]

No, I love you. I love. Oh, I mean, I'm sorry.

[Amy Ray]

They run away.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Emily Saliers]

They're like, whoa.

[Amy Ray]

It's okay.

[Host]

I know how that goes. Because right now my heart is beating.

[Emily Saliers]

My heart.

[Amy Ray]

Are you checking your.

[Host]

This morning on the way.

[Amy Ray]

Give you a monitor.

[Host]

The important thing is that we remain calm. So that's what I'm doing.

[Amy Ray]

The royal we means me.

[Host]

Yes, it means us.

[Amy Ray]

You look so calm and completely calm.

[Host]

Look, she's always calm. If I'm. If reincarnation is real, I just want to come back as this.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, that's an interesting thing.

[Host]

This.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Well, you can't be a professional sports player without being that.

[Abby]

That's right.

[Melissa Etheridge]

That's what it takes.

[Amy Ray]

Training.

[Emily Saliers]

Did you get nervous before games?

[Melissa Etheridge]

It's different, isn't it? People say, do we get nervous and nervous and excitement is very much the same thing.

[Abby]

It's the same exact thing. Physiologically, the physiological Response is the exact same between nerves and excitement. And so the way that you put it in here, psychologically, an athlete thinks about it. Like when the commentator said, are you excited? Are you nervous? They're like, no, I'm excited.

[Emily Saliers]

Yes.

[Abby]

It's the exact same thing.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

So it's like, I didn't know that.

[Amy Ray]

But if you say to yourself you're excited, it makes you less nervous.

[Host]

I mean, like, that's what they say, but that's.

[Amy Ray]

I mean, I'm always excited about everything in life, but I get nervous for certain shows and I just have a case of the nerves and I'll miss chords for the first three songs or.

[Emily Saliers]

Something like, LA makes us nervous.

[Melissa Etheridge]

La, oh my God, LA is so hard to play.

[Amy Ray]

Really. You did a great show last night.

[Melissa Etheridge]

But see, the. The Greek has massive spotlights. They're just huge. And you really can't see most of the audience. All you can see is the crazy front row, which are usually just crazy people, which I love my front row. They're great, but they're just crazy people. And all I could see was the lit up exits. So I could see people leaving. And I'm like, do not look at the people leaving, just play the show. So LA is just a real mind trip because I've spent years here. I came here 40 years ago and spent years dreaming and hoping. And so you. So you get on stage and I've got, just got this past of, oh my God, you've always wanted to be, you know, and everyone's leaving and I'm like, no, no, no, this is the mind trip.

[Abby]

They just had to pee.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah, right, exactly, exactly.

[Emily Saliers]

That's.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh, so, so much so. But that's, that's a real, you know, mind trip.

[Host]

It's a good mind trick though, because like in every situation we can either focus on the people who are leaving.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Or the ones or the people.

[Host]

But you can have thousands of people like, I love you, I worship you. And you're like, some guy's leaving.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh, no.

[Amy Ray]

Yep.

[Melissa Etheridge]

My wife used to. My wife's a very interesting woman. She used to. In the 80s, she drove a limo and she drove Liza Minnelli.

[Abby]

No way.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Totally. And she used to say that one time when Liza Minnelli played Carnegie hall, that, you know, the place is going wild and stuff like this. And she said, yeah, but there's that one guy in back that didn't stand up. And then later she sees the guy going out in a wheelchair and she's like, fuck. Oh, I just. Yeah, I gave Away all my power to the. To my assumption that this person didn't like me. And those assumptions are what can really hurt us.

[Host]

Our dear friend Andrea Gibson, who just passed, always. They used to say that their wellness check in every moment was, am I paying attention to who isn't loving me or who I love? Like, in every moment, you can tell how well you are by what you're focused on. The not or the is.

[Melissa Etheridge]

That's all your power.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

I don't know why it's so hard to remember that or live by it.

[Amy Ray]

I know.

[Emily Saliers]

I guess it wasn't for them, but.

[Abby]

Well, I think it's been set into us from the time when we were little. I mean, when you stand. There's a. There's a saying in the sports world that if you stand in front of a group of female little girl athletes and you say one of you was. Was out there not working as hard as I know that you needed to be, every single girl psychologically thinks that the coach is talking about them. And you go in the exact same locker room to a male and speak to a male team, and every kid in that locker room thinks they're talking about somebody else. So there's something that psychologically happens when we're young, I think that kind of predisposes us to believe that, oh, we are not wanted. So we're looking for the people leaving the stadium or going and hitting the exits.

[Emily Saliers]

And if you're queer, there's all that.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Emily Saliers]

History mixed into it.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

Like, I don't know if you feel that way, Melissa.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I'm very queer.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Please don't ruin our lives by saying you no longer feel queer. We can't take that.

[Melissa Etheridge]

No, no, no. You can be definitely sure that that's never changing.

[Emily Saliers]

It's a bit of a trauma, you know, just the old language, the old voices.

[Melissa Etheridge]

But I also grew up. I had a really great father figure. Really great. He was a high school coach. But my relationship with my mother was really, you know, contentious. She was having a hard time. She was a. She was like a hidden figure sort of computer scientist that didn't get the credit, got paid half of. So she was kind of a bitter woman. But I didn't understand all that at the time. I just thought she didn't, like. Because we always think it's about us. But my father was really great, and I think that maybe that sort of.

[Emily Saliers]

Male.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Role model in my life, I wasn't afraid of guys, you know, and it really helped in my business because it Was all guys and, you know, so I think that that might be a part of it. I don't know.

[Emily Saliers]

That's interesting.

[Host]

What about you guys and men? There's the kids.

[Amy Ray]

That's like something that you would needed to ask yesterday. So we had time to think about it.

[Emily Saliers]

Ye.

[Amy Ray]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Emily Saliers]

In terms of men in my life, like, I love all my brothers in law. I'm married to my sisters, and my parents stayed married until my mom passed. And my dad is a wonderful human. And so I've had a lot of good men in my life. And then in terms of, you know, like, in terms of the spectrum, like, I find men extremely attractive. So, yeah, sometimes I'm like, around a certain man or whatever and I'm like, am I gay? And then. But I know I am. I know I am. But so. But I have a very, very, like, vehement vitriolic opposition to men who are toxic or take up too much space. Like, I just can't. And then in those moments, I'm like, I just want to be around women all the time, because I don't. I don't experience that in the company of, like, spirited women.

[Abby]

So you feel this attraction towards men. Is it for the sake of, like, sexual attraction or is it part of gender questioning? Because I have similar things. I think men's bodies are beautiful, and I also think, obviously women's bodies are beautiful, but it's in a way that I want to, like, be it. It's in a way that I feel like envy. Like, broad shoulders, muscles, ripped abs. I was a pro athlete, never had abs. Like, fuck, I have your abs. You don't want to be it. Got it, got it, got it, got.

[Melissa Etheridge]

It, got it, got it. Cool. Yeah, cool.

[Emily Saliers]

That's interesting though. This came up a conversation with Amy where I wrote this song when I was feeling sort of a wistfulness because I love country music and all the. We may have talked about this before, where the songs were heteronormative and I couldn't find my place in it. But you had said Amy, like, younger. You were just the guy in your mind. I mean, I don't want to put words in how you would describe it, but. So I never could do that. I was like, I don't fit in this. But Amy didn't have a problem.

[Abby]

Yeah, it's interesting because we. For me, growing up, I felt this need, not only internally but externally, that I had to put myself in a certain box. So when Glennon and I met, it was actually really Interesting, because she was. We were friends, and she was like, I think maybe I might be a little queer. And I was like, oh, like, we should take the Kinsey test. You go online and that was your response.

[Emily Saliers]

Were you scared?

[Host]

I was scared. I was terrified. You all. I was in a hotel room in Mennonite country, and there was a big sampler that said, fear the Lord in all things. And then I've got Abby on the phone, and I was an evangelical Sunday school teacher.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah.

[Host]

So I'm fearing the Lord with my sampler, and then Abby's trying to make me gay.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I'm not trying to make you gay.

[Abby]

And then I sent you a song. You guys might.

[Amy Ray]

Wait.

[Melissa Etheridge]

What song? What song?

[Abby]

Drive Drive by Melissa Ferrig.

[Host]

And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so gay.

[Amy Ray]

That's very graphic.

[Melissa Etheridge]

That is a great song.

[Amy Ray]

I love that you sent that.

[Abby]

Yeah. I was like, let me know what you think. And she was like, oh, shit, that worked.

[Emily Saliers]

Was that how you flirted with her?

[Abby]

Yeah, for sure.

[Emily Saliers]

Send her a song.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. See, the songs are very powerful.

[Emily Saliers]

They can be.

[Host]

Yeah. The reason why we're doing this in person right now is because when I found out that you all were in town, I lost my mind and said, please tell them that we'd like them to come to our in home studio. And then a little too late, Abby reminded me that we don't, in fact, have an in home studio.

[Amy Ray]

That's so cute.

[Abby]

It's like we have a basement.

[Host]

Yeah. So here we are in our in home studio that we created for you all.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Host]

So we want to ask you all about creativity and songwriting and, like, where does it come from at first? Like, are you sitting in your house and you're like. A song starts bubbling up inside of you is a lyric. Is it a melody? Which I'm not sure what a melody is. It's the harmony and the melody. How does it begin?

[Melissa Etheridge]

How do you win a game? It's hard to describe. It's something you, like, really want to do. First of all. I mean, I know when I was 10 years old and I grew up in the 60s and 70s, so I was in the middle of the singer songwriter. You know, it was Dylan and Joni Mitchell and these, you know, Paul Simon and these great singer songwriters. And I was just surrounded by music. My parents listened to music. They didn't play music, but they listened to it a lot. And my sister listened to the, you know, Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones. My parents had mamas and Papas. And it's just really great mix of music. And the radio station. I grew up in Kansas, and the radio station played everything. One radio station played everything. Tammy Wynette to Marvin Gaye and to Tommy James and Chandelles, which is just this great mix of music. So I thought music was just music, you know, it was everything, and I wanted to be part of that. And then you start drawing that to you, and first you're copying. You're copying songs. You know, I was 11 and I didn't have Expedo. You broke my heart. You didn't. I had. I did not have a broken heart yet. And you. You mimic it until, you know, your early 20s, you really start having experiences. You. Then you study it, and you study the greats and, you know, Ricky Lee Jones. Why do these words, you know, why don't you use those words? And you. You get into that. So now, after we've done it for 40 years, 50 years, you know, higher. Yeah. You know, a long time.

[Abby]

That's so amazing.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I collect as I go through my day, I collect things that inspire me because if I want to be inspiring, I have to be inspired. So I find it in. In art. I find it in books, movies, other music, poetry I love. I get a lot from poetry. And you, you're like, oh, why did that touch me? And then I look at that and then I think about, okay, what do I want to say now? And now that I've lived so much life, it's rich with things that have happened, things that I want, the desires and pains, and so I can mine from that. I have my. On my phone, I've just got huge notes, just lines, Just, you know, someone will say something. I'm, oh, that sounds good. You know, that's cool. Or I'll think something. Or you just. Then give yourself time. In my 20s, before I had kids, I was like, you know, writing all day long on my bed.

[Amy Ray]

You know, I didn't even do that.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Now I have to say, okay, from 10 to 2, Mama's writing. Leave me alone. That's one thing. You got to make the time. You know, it's changed over the years, but how does it come? It's. It's a connection with a stream of consciousness, really, that's going by that you. You get from. And sometimes you get really lucky and go, wow, thank you. And sometimes someone else gets that line. You're like, oh, there it is. So.

[Emily Saliers]

When the gu away.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah, I've done that. I'm like, I thought of that and didn't do anything with it.

[Emily Saliers]

How about melodically? Have you ever ripped off a song.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And didn't realize I'm constantly worried that no, I've changed songs. I've gone, oh, God, that was inspired by this. Yeah. You know, and. And you can't help it. It. There's only eight notes, so you're like, did.

[Amy Ray]

Did.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Did I make that up or is that like a really famous song that I just really like? I don't know.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

What about you guys? Where does creativity come from for you?

[Emily Saliers]

I think for me, I was born into a musical family. So my dad's a pianist and he wrote sacred music and my mom played piano and we always sang together as a family. So whatever genetically might contribute to that was certainly in my line. But I came into the world. It was born Breach. That was back when they let you be Born Breach. Born Breach came in like bow legged, red headed, recessive gene sensitivity queen, like, fucked up.

[Amy Ray]

And so great description.

[Host]

You're leaving in your limbo shirt from last night. You're like, arrived in limbo. I am on the cusp.

[Emily Saliers]

I feel like my name's Emily and I don't know, but I have big feelings.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

So when I discovered guitar at nine years old, and then that became my vehicle. And so really at first, and like Melissa said, it's a lot of emulating. Early on, like, I really wanted to be Joni Mitchell. And then I read an interview with her. You know, she was so acerbic back in the day. I was so afraid of her.

[Melissa Etheridge]

She didn't like anybody.

[Emily Saliers]

And she was like, I don't want.

[Host]

Anybody to copy me.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And I was like, oh, God, I.

[Emily Saliers]

Guess I better find my own voice. Joni doesn't want me to be like her. So there were like these pivotal moments, but mostly it was like, that was the way that I could figure out the world through my little lens, you know? And then as Melissa said, you. You live more, and then your songs become more alive in your own experience and they become richer. I could write five songs a day when I was 17, but they were all the same and they were crap. Like, I look back at those lyrics and it's like, God, I see these.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Artists that are getting signed at 17, 18, and you're like, oh, God, they're gonna. By the time they're 25, they're gonna go, what? You know, they're gonna be completely different than what they created at 17. I'm so glad I didn't.

[Emily Saliers]

Well, we did record a few songs that if I had to go back and like, oops, we could have left that one off.

[Melissa Etheridge]

But I still have those.

[Emily Saliers]

So I think for me, I just see the world in images, like. And then like, Melissa, I'll write things down and I'll think, oh, this is so good. This is going to go in a song nine times. So there's a constant self criticism too. Like, it's very rarely. There's two or three songs maybe that I'm like, ah, that did the trick. That's what I was going for. But for me, it really is. Songwriting is completely cathartic, you know, and with this administration, I've had a lot to write about. So the problem is that I end up sort of spewing the same sentiments and sort of descriptors. And after you have lived and written songs for so long, I just don't want to repeat myself. But. But when it is the way for me to process what's going on in the world or in life, then, you know, there tend to be repeating themes because not much changes over time when it comes to the human race.

[Host]

No.

[Emily Saliers]

So anyway, that was a long winded way of saying that's where mine comes from. Trying to figure out, yeah, what about you?

[Amy Ray]

I mean, my family was musical in some ways. Like, my parents loved music. My dad's got. Had a great voice and we sort of had to take piano for three years. That was like the compulsory, which I'm so glad about. But I think I was just like, drawn in. Like, my older sister would listen to a lot of the music from the late 60s and 70s, and I was really drawn into like, Neil Young and Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin and Grace Slick and like all those kind of that era. And then I discovered, you know, Carole King and Roseanne Cash and Linda Ronstadt and, you know, a lot of Joni Mitchell and Ricky Lee and all these things that started cropping up. But when I was very young, I was in church choir. I was a real church girl. Went like, you know, a few days a week at least. Sunday school, Bible school, youth group, choir practice, Friday night skating. I did all of it right. And music was a big part of what we did in the Methodist church.

[Melissa Etheridge]

You know, I was Methodist, sporting Methodist.

[Emily Saliers]

I was too.

[Abby]

You were too as well, sporty Methodist.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And. And there was so much music and all the time my parents ended up dropping me off at church. They didn't want to go to church, but I was like, take me to church.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah, you can just sit around and play.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And I love the spirit in it.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah. And we are one in the spirit.

[Melissa Etheridge]

We are one.

[Host]

Because you go and you think the feeling you have is about Jesus. I was like, oh, my God, I love Jesus. I went to my first concert. I'm like, oh.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh.

[Host]

I just love this music altogether.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Amy Ray]

Right.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Like, it's just that feeling of we're.

[Host]

All in a moment together.

[Amy Ray]

I had a communal moment.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I was almost. I had a moment of being maybe a Christian artist.

[Host]

Oh, really?

[Melissa Etheridge]

I know, it's true. I was, like, 20. It was before I came to California, and I had done. I had done so much work in the church and had become, like, head of the youth group, and I wrote a musical and I was doing all this stuff, and then. Yeah, you remember Phil Kagi?

[Amy Ray]

Oh, yeah. I love Phil Kegey.

[Melissa Etheridge]

He came to our town and my. I loved him, and they let me open for him.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And I was like, this is it. This is my chance, you know? And I.

[Amy Ray]

He was great.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh, he's great.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And I met him backstage, and I was like, what do you think? Do you think, you know, I could, you know, because I'd written some great songs and. And he. Sweetheart, he said, I don't think Christian music is ready for you.

[Host]

Well, that was probably.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I'm going to Los Angeles.

[Amy Ray]

Wow.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Way to go, Phil. I'm just gonna be gay.

[Amy Ray]

He'.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I know. It was cool.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah.

[Host]

That was nice of him, actually. What is. So you all are a Methodist?

[Emily Saliers]

What is.

[Host]

Do you have any language to put around what your faith is right now?

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

What's the language you would like in this snapshot, this moment today? What is your faith?

[Melissa Etheridge]

I'm a spiritualist.

[Amy Ray]

Spiritualist?

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah. I believe in intelligent design. You. You just can't look at this world and how it is made without understanding that some intelligent life force or source is creating this. That's going on and when. And. And I've. I. I had cancer 21 years ago. And it really, like, oh, I gotta get in life right now or I'm gonna die. You know, that sort of thing. So I really dove deeply into religions, science, quantum physics, these things. And when you start realizing that it's all the same thing, that we're actually connected by a force, whatever you want to call it, the ether, the source. We're connected. We're all one and we're all different. And we're all creating and moving forward, and we're all trying to figure out how to live together. And there's a saying that started with Hermes back in the Greek time. It was as above, so below. What we're doing down here is also how it's done everywhere. You can see in a small cell what we are as a cell of a person are in this society, as our countries are in the world, as the world is in the universe, and it's all the same. So I, that's a whole nother podcast I could definitely talk to you about. But it's, it's, it brings me much peace to, to understand it that way, to understand the spirit in the world.

[Host]

What about you, Amy?

[Amy Ray]

I mean, I, I believe that like I was a religion major and I really love religions, like to study how people live their. How what you use as your construct to get through your life, you know. And so I'd look at religion as, as two things. Like, I'm very spiritual and I'm very like nature oriented and kind of paganism in some ways. But I. The structure of Christianity is my comfort zone and not the patriarchy. Of course, when I write songs that are like gospel songs, I still write about Jesus and I still think of Jesus as a historical figure who may or may not have been everything that we think, but in my mind is like this rebellious advocate for people that, you know, had less and. Or weren't recognized, I guess is a better way to put it. They actually probably had more but were disenfranchised. And so for me it's that I was raised so heavily in that and it's still something I feel comfortable with, you know, and I feel, I go to church and I like preaching and I, when it's a good minister and I really just love it, you know, I enjoy it a lot. So. But I'm very. But I also love Buddhism and I love the Jewish faith and I love, you know, like Jewish theologians like Martin Buber I like, you know, so I just, I think Hinduism is really. There's a lot of things in Islam that are very special and so I love it all. But I think I realized for me the vehicle that I is, is kind of Jesus without the patriarchy, I guess, in a way, which is hard to do. But I have like a filter and translator inside me that just takes whatever is happening and translates it into my own language. And I feel good, but I don't. But I definitely feel, you know, determined for the church and institutions to sort of get with it, you know, and because they. There's so many churches like the church in my neighborhood, my mom's neighborhood, who my mom needs a lot of care right now and they're really there for her. And it's just like 50 people in the congregation. Was an incredible minister and a great piano player. And, you know, that's what a church. It's a neighborhood church. They're there for everybody. When someone's house burns down, they're there for them. When my mom is sick, they're there for them. To me, that's what church is supposed to be about, you know, and so I believe there. It's important to have that community space. I just wish it hadn't been hijacked by all the assholes. That's my take on it. But Emily's got a whole.

[Emily Saliers]

Well, I just. I guess I'm much more of like a Holy Spirit kind of girl. Like, when I was younger, it was really about Jesus and, like, these women. I grew up in the Methodist Church. My dad was a theologian and a minister. But we were, I guess you could call it, progressive thinking. So we weren't. Nothing was ever forced on us. We were able to ask a lot of questions, and my dad was able to describe to us the true mythology of Christianity, doctrine and storytelling. So when I became. I had a sort of intellectual grasp of the sharing of stories. Like the Lord's Prayer is actually a Jewish prayer in origin, and. And then the stories of the gods and all that. So then. Then I was like, okay, that's cool. So I'm not a fundamentalist, and the mythology is beautiful and all that, but to me, like human beings, in my opinion, we have a relationship to spirituality. So the more we lock in to goodness, doing for others, respecting our place in the scope of things, then the deeper the spiritual world grows. To put it simply, this entity that I believe in, this Holy Spirit, it grows, the more human beings are in relationship with it. So this is our task as human beings. And I'm a little negative about the human speech. I don't think we've really come that far in terms of our evolution as beings. And we do have a chance to ruin it all, and perhaps we will. But in the moment, we are tasked with this relationship. So I buy into that, but also I buy into, like, the cosmos is like, we cannot fathom the mysteries of the universe. And so there are mysteries, but then there are fractals. They know that things are repeating and repeating. And then to me, it's just so truly, in the literal sense of the word, awesome. Like, awesome.

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[Abby]

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[Melissa Etheridge]

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[Abby]

And it also has.

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[Host]

What is your faith or all of that? How does it inform how you show up right now in this moment that we're in, in this country? And how does being on the road together right now feel being like all of this? You know, it's so emotional just watching you on stage because, you know, just you have walked us through so many things. And I felt comforted last night because I thought, well, there's a lot of young people there last night. And I was like, oh, these people think this is new. Like, there's so many queer kids out there. But you all went through it when it wasn't so easy, right when everybody wasn't assimilated. So what can you. What do you want them to know? The young kids to know right now, like young queer kids? And what have you learned from them that has changed your worldview?

[Melissa Etheridge]

Our oldest child is a lesbian. And it's so funny because she'll say, people ask me, do you think you're lesbian? Because your mother was or whatever. And she's like, well, are you straight? Because your parents were straight? You know, that's a silly question. And I raised her in a world where she really thought there were more gay people than straight people in the world when she was a child. She really did. And she came to the Berkeley show the other night, and the Berkeley show was. It was 10,000 strong, magical men and women. And she turned to her partner, she goes, this is what I was raised in. This is what I thought the world was, was this right here. So I see that as these younger kids who were raised after we already, you know, started building it, and we were the, you know, the famous ones. But there were so many people. I was surrounded by, you know, irvisheevade and these men and women who were fighting the AIDS fight, you know, in the 80s. And that's what really brought us all together. This was something that was killing people. And we. And we all joined together. And these people, I would. I would hang around them in Hollywood and they were working so hard, and it inspired me to go, you know, it would probably mean something if I really came out and did that. And so there was a small sense of community and, you know, like, what we. They wouldn't. I remember when Bill Clinton actually said gay and lesbian for the first time on television. It was like, my God, he said the word lesbian, you know, and it was just really, you know, huge. And I would say to the younger ones, now, we have come so far. You don't realize that it wasn't that long ago that it was like this. So we have come so far. Rest assured in that, yes, people are going to try to push back, but it's not going to work because we have. We've already come so far. And I didn't think in my lifetime that I would be able to say, I have a wife.

[Abby]

Same.

[Melissa Etheridge]

You know, that wasn't something that. And marriage, when we were just fighting to stay alive and not be thrown in jail, we didn't think about marriage. That was like, that's something that straight people do, you know, and it wasn't until I realized that, well, there's a whole lot of rights that come with.

[Amy Ray]

Marriage and stuff, right?

[Melissa Etheridge]

You know, I wanted marriage so I could get gay divorced, you know, so I could divorce.

[Host]

Equality is important.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Well, you have no idea. I had to pay twice as much in taxes that someone else would have to pay in a divorce. So I would. I would say. I would say, don't despair. It's have enough of the contrast to give you energy but don't ever let it overcome you because we have already pushed through so much of this and it's just people in their fear and that they don't understand what they don't see and, and so, so be out, be gay, be who you are and change happens slowly. And just in 20 years they'll be going, oh, well, we used to have to do that, you know.

[Abby]

Exactly.

[Melissa Etheridge]

It'll be the same.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Emily Saliers]

What about you two?

[Host]

What do you think about when you think about the young queer love bugs?

[Amy Ray]

I love young queer activists. I love young activists. Not even just queer for me. They've mentored me all my life. I felt like, you know, I used to hang out with this band, the Butchies which was part of Team Dress was kind of like the riot Grrrl era and we played tour together some and they really opened my mind to my own sort of gender struggles. And you know, they're 10 years younger than me and from that point on I sort of started realizing, yeah, you know what it's like. I don't really have a lot to say. I have to listen probably a lot because they opened my mind to a lot of stuff that was already going on inside me and enabled me to articulate things that made my life so much easier. And then as I got older, I noticed that all these great movements were starting to be led by, you know, younger people. And I mean gun safety, gun control, environmental movements, climate change, black lives matter, death penalty work, indigenous movement right now is very youth led and amazing. Young leaders and the queer movement. And I find that I have a lot of young queer people in my life also because I have two gay sisters and have, have, you know, have a gay sister that's got gay children. I've got a brother that's got gay kids. It's like there's just a lot of gay around and it's. And queer. But it's so different for them because they're so on, it's so on a spec. It's so like fluid and it's so not labeled and free and. And I don't know, I just feel like there's still a lot to learn and there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of bullying, there's a lot of hate and vitriol. But. And it's really important I think just to, you know, love each other through that. But also I have so much faith in this younger batch of people that I just try to like, listen what needs to be done. Like, what are y' all doing? What. What do I need to be doing to help that? Because I. I feel like that's the leadership that's so important right now. But I also think, just generally every day right now, I feel like I'm always like, I gotta do something positive today for somebody. It doesn't have to be queer. Yeah. You know what I mean? It just has to be one thing. It helps because right now, like, that's the only thing I can focus on is, like, narrowing into, like, how is that? How's that one thing that I can do today that'll help somebody feel better or open somebody's mind up a little bit or make some. Or just love as you. You know, you talk about love on stage a lot. It's good. It's like. Yeah. Because I live in an area where everybody's. It's very much more conservative and there's a lot of. It's very hard right now for people to just like. And they'll find their way through it, you know, and. But if people can keep relationships going, even though they feel differently and they hate each other in some ways, if they can try to keep something together, I think it's. Right now it's probably going to be the thing that saves us, you know, to do that, to have some humanity.

[Emily Saliers]

For me, I just think simply, like, I don't. I don't have much that I would tell young youth and activists, queer youth, except to say that things are on a continuum and something came before you, it came before us. People have suffered to bring us where we are. And now there's a lot of suffering again. Sort of like one step forward, two steps back. It feels like with this administration and just the horrific way that trans people are being treated and all of their rights being stripped. But there has been a continuum and there always will be. But mostly I want to learn from them. Like, I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from Luna. She is amazing human being. I love her. She's a really wonderful human being. And she. I went to go see her play her solo show in New York and I met her friends and I. It was like. I was gonna say a kid in a candy store, but it was more like, here I am, this person in my age with my experience and trying to use the tools that I have. These young people were so inspiring. First of all, they were all non binary. All her friends. One of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food to Palestinians, like on the ground, Complete courage that they wouldn't even call courage. It's just the way that they live their truth. So I'm like, y' all tell me what to do and I'll do my best as a middle aged, like, whatever. Just so inspiring. And so there's a whole, like, circle of young artists and some of them I find on YouTube. But Katie's like, in that, in that circle of people that's so inspiring to me. So I just want to listen and like be a worker, be and show up for them.

[Host]

Beautiful. But what is a day, like, getting through this shit? Like, besides the, like theoretical, like when you guys wake up and you're talking to your partners or you're talking to your kids, how do you approach living in this moment just on a day to day basis? How do you ride the wave of fascism?

[Abby]

Well, you want to tell them that you're in an interesting period of your life.

[Host]

Well, I always am.

[Abby]

Oh, it's fascism. And you got to tell.

[Host]

Oh, menopause. Like, I never.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, that's a book.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I just had a hot flash as we were sitting here and I was like, how was that going on?

[Abby]

Yeah, the intersection of fascism.

[Host]

Is this raging homicidal lightning flash I have inside of me, like due to the fallen estrogen or the fallen democracy. It's my chemo.

[Amy Ray]

Can you please write that book?

[Host]

No, I can't keep a thought in my mind for longer than two minutes.

[Amy Ray]

Just record everything as you think it. Just like record it as you think it and then translate through, you know.

[Host]

I mean, you all have kids. Like, what are you saying to them? And how do you keep your equilibrium? Do you.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I do. I again started with, with me when I went through cancer. That was just a big, big, like, shift in my life of, oh, wow, I've got to, I got to think about me personally. And as I said earlier about as above, so below I'm. I represent the whole. Each individual has everything in it and each part of you and your body, your DNA has everything in it. So I look to the fantastic things. I also look at what I'm taking in. It is really hard to watch the news. Watching the news is. You have to, you have to set yourself in a good place before you watch the news or it will take you under and throw you away. And the technology that we have, how instantly things that happen all over the world, you can look and feel it instantly. And that's. And then there's like, in the moment, there's nothing you can do about it. So it causes a great depression. So it's about, okay, how can I get to a place where I know that I'm doing what I can. What's healthy for me health is especially menopause. This is when all the health stuff starts. So it's about strengthening yourself. For my children. I can't have my children watching me fall apart over something that I. I literally can't change today. And I want to have my children see me one love what I'm doing because I want them to love what they do in life. I want them to love life. So words don't teach. I can tell them, you have to love your life, but if they're seeing me falling apart every day, they're going to go, that doesn't fit. So I want to be an example. All I can do is teach them by my example, an example of a loving relationship, how I love myself in my relationship, how I love myself in my work, and how the only thing that could ever take me away from you is that I love is my love. And, and show them that that's the joy of life is doing what you love and then in your doing what you'd love, you actually make the world a better place. You really do. And believing that and then letting the things that you can do come to you like this. You have inspired so many young people just by being truthful, just by being you. That's the power that can't be taken away. And also the knowledge that in this world, we live in a dualistic universe. That is our reality is good and bad, light and dark, up and down, in and out, right and wrong. It's. There's. You can't have one without the other. They all exist. So how do we exist in a world where there's going to be really bad things always happening? How do we do that? Well, you. Appreciation. You know what this administration really makes me appreciate good leadership. I want to find people that are thinking forward about leadership. I want to put my energy. Instead of putting my energy looking at what I don't like, saying what I don't like, which gives me more of what I don't like. I'm going to say, okay, this exists. I'm not going to, you know, say it doesn't exist. Yes, it exists. And it makes me want more peace. It makes me want better leaders, better leadership. How can we lead as one in our diversity? Oh, well, we celebrate all diversity. We even celebrate people who don't understand us. But we appreciate, find a way to truly do It. And it's. It's inside work. And it's inside work loving our bodies and how, okay, we're not making babies anymore. That was only a part of our life now, unfortunately, in the last 2000 years. A woman post menopausal 2000 years ago was the village leader. They were the ones who knew the things, the wisdom, the owls that we are. You know, that's what our job was back then. And then that's been taken away and buried.

[Abby]

And.

[Melissa Etheridge]

No, no, no, no, no. It's time to embrace that now. Now this is. This is when the good stuff starts happening.

[Abby]

That's exactly right.

[Melissa Etheridge]

This is the good stuff.

[Abby]

All the political movements.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And all the. If we can, like, zoom out humanity, the. The bad things need to happen.

[Melissa Etheridge]

There you go.

[Abby]

So that you have something to fight against.

[Melissa Etheridge]

More good stuff.

[Abby]

And then this is the moment where we get to come together. So, like, that's the. The way that my mindset works too. Like, though I wish that we didn't have to go through the suffering portal to get through, you know, to the next step.

[Host]

I mean, anyone who's suffering really is. That's proof of love. Because anyone who looks at this mess and feels deep pain or sadness, that's only because there's a vision inside of them that is like, this should be more beautiful. But love yourself, the bigger the vision, the bigger.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Love yourself enough to move to the next step from that. Do not stay in despair or suffering because then that doesn't help anybody and you get sick and you die.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

So understand it, feel it, and then appreciate. I appreciate feeling that because I know that that has made me want this. I. We all went through. You have your Laramie song. I have a scarecrow song about back Matthew Shepard. People don't understand what a big moment that was because it shifted people going, no, no, no, we can't be gay. There's no gay. No gay to. Wait a minute. I'm not that. I don't want to kill in such a horrible way. And it shifted a whole lot of people to. I'm not that. So the awfulness. We are going to see more people go, you know what? I'm not that. Even though they might have been. Oh, I'm. Oh, I'm conservative. Oh, I'm not that. And they move over. So that's where change happens.

[Host]

You mentioned being yourself out loud, that that is an important part of your work. Have you ever had a time where you decided to censor yourself either in music or on stage? Can you think of A time where that has happened and you didn't say the thing and then what was the fallout?

[Amy Ray]

Yeah, I mean, I think for me it. It's like a daily wrestling when we're on tour and singing. I always think about that, like not saying something for various reasons, you know, like if you're in a band with a lot of people and different people feel different things and you know that out of respect for people in your band, that this may not be the time to talk about certain issues or whatever, but then, then you're like, but this is. But this is the time to talk about that. So it's like. But I think it's harder than that. I want to admit to myself to not be censored and to really be as strong as I want to be, you know, So I think it's not just like one moment. It's like a constant dialogue for me because I'm. It. It's easier to sing a song that's outspoken than it is to actually speak out.

[Abby]

That's interesting.

[Amy Ray]

And so it's, you know, and. But for me, it's like when you're at a protest or a march, it's, you know, you're there, you're in it, you're saying it. When you're on stage in front of a lot of people, sometimes it's like, I don't want to. You start, do I want to alienate people? And then you're like, why am I worried about that right now? And so I have this little thing going on in my head. I think it's cool for me and Emily because we. I think we sort of tag team this a little bit because you. There's always this sense of who feels stronger that we don't even talk about. But you can just tell, like, well, Emily. Emily feels strong tonight to talk about this, or I feel strong tonight to talk about this. And I don't really even think about it. But as I look at it, I think, like, that's where we have the luxury of that tag teaming and making each other stronger. And I live in a town that's very. You know, I love my neighbors so much. And I really am careful not about what I say, but choosing my moments to like, evangelize to them about whatever, you know, and just. And respecting where they're coming from. But if it's. If someone makes a racist comment, I'm gonna say something about it, you know, or someone says something really hateful, I do speak up. But, like, I'm not scared about what people Think of me. I'm scared of losing the thread of a relationship and damaging that because I also had a dad that was very conservative and a mom that's now super progressive but used to be conservative. So. And I try to be brave, you know, because. And I look to my mentors, my Indian elders and other elders, you know, Jimmy Carter, Stacy Abrams, you know, who unabashedly would just say things that they say, but they say them in a way that's gentle or somehow they managed to say it without alienating people and still speak their truth. And I just studied that like John Lewis, because I haven't gotten there at all in any way.

[Abby]

If you want some help, I have some advice on this topic.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, Abby, Cool.

[Abby]

You know, when we were young and our parents would like, you'd be like acting up and they would just be like, knock it off, knock it off. I'm bringing it back.

[Host]

Knock it off.

[Abby]

So when somebody steps out of line, just be like, knock it off. Because it's kind of loving and also nostalgic and also to the point.

[Host]

Yeah.

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[Emily Saliers]

Let me ask y', all like how is life different for you now that you're so much in the public and like, truthfully, very, very famous. How does that. Does it make you more self conscious about the way you live your life or how you speak, your thoughts or how you do your job?

[Host]

I think for me, I have all different thoughts about it. I'm extremely sensitive, human. So Abby knows we go through a lot of ups and downs in a.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Day.

[Host]

But I think for me, the biggest challenge right now is to understand that my job isn't just to comfort a community. Like, it is not my job to make everybody feel comfortable all the time, which is my. I love the people who we do life with and I love our community. And then like every two years, I am internally compelled to just blow it all up by like saying something or doing something. And then everyone's like, oh, we liked you before. And then. But so it's like a cycle. So for me, it's like getting comfortable with my mission or responsibility being not to just comfort a community, but also challenge and being okay, leaving behind whatever has to go, knowing that whatever will come next is what was supposed to be. But it does feel like a constant. Like, oh, we just got comfortable. Like, what you said about life is like, we just got comfortable with this thing. And now, like, I think if I. We know if I'm speaking somewhere at a church or whatever and no one leaves, I feel like I haven't done my job right. Oh, I always think that.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh, interesting.

[Host]

Like when I start seeing people walk out, I'm like, oh, God. Oh my God. I'm almost done. I did the thing.

[Abby]

Yeah, she's supposed to be challenged. She's trying to be challenging people to a point where some people are like, uncomfortable. Get me out of here.

[Host]

But it makes me sad because I don't want. I want people to feel safe. But then safety isn't always the.

[Amy Ray]

You're right, right. You're right, you're right. So that's. It's hard for me to do that, but you're so right.

[Emily Saliers]

And then what's your experience in all of that, Abby?

[Abby]

Since the time I was 15, 16, from like a smaller town in upstate New York to then like the world, I've had an interesting relationship with fame and being known in the public eye. And I think it's such a bizarre thing to have. Like, I would liken it to your guys talent because there is something supernatural about it that I don't have anything to do with. I don't know why I was gifted this thing. So I do actually feel like I Am of the people. Because I can't claim full responsibility of it all.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abby]

So, yeah, totally. And so when people come up to us, I just. I don't. I don't feel there's a difference.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah, I agree.

[Abby]

Like, when I first met Glennon and got three kids, I was, like, very much thrown into. Now I have to have a consciousness for these three humans also, because they're young, and when somebody would kind of interrupt us, that would be interruptive to their experience. And so having to think through it from, like, a kid's perspective. And nowadays they're older now, and so it's usually pretty normal. And we live in an area where everybody kind of respects us. I don't know. I feel like the energy on this set right now. It's like. This is gonna sound so weird, but just bear with me. I was doing a breath class, and in the breath class, you're basically hyperventilating.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Abby]

You know, and I had some hallucination where God came down on me and basically was just like, I gave you this gift. I gave you these gifts, and, like, it's up to you what you want to do with it. So it's like a daily choice to be in this. In the system and in the sports world. Especially when I was traveling overseas, like.

[Sponsor Voice]

People were calling me dyke and, like, fuck you.

[Abby]

And I was like. I was the enemy. I was, like, the opposition. So I got really comfortable in a place where people are booing, because if they weren't booing, then I was not playing well, then they weren't scared. So it's kind of weird dynamic. So I'm, like, the perfect person for you to be married to, because I'm just like, you know, roll up your sleeves. They're yelling at us. Good.

[Host]

And I'm like, yeah.

[Abby]

I don't know.

[Emily Saliers]

That's really interesting.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Host]

Do you guys think anything was lost in the time when, you know, there were rainbows in every Old Navy and that? Because, like, does. Because really, I don't know how to put this into words, but it felt like there was something cooler than that that we were going for, like, just being like everyone else wasn't. It was kind of like, oh, well.

[Emily Saliers]

Then you have the capitalist part of it too.

[Amy Ray]

Modified.

[Emily Saliers]

I remember when American Airlines came out and was, like, very pro gay early. Early on, and I was like, oh, that's cool. From the goodness of their hearts.

[Melissa Etheridge]

You buy airplane tickets.

[Emily Saliers]

But you know what's, like, in. I think it's a link to what you're saying, Glenn. And a lot of this conversation has come up recently, and I've had people I know say it seems like the trans movement has hurt the gay movement. And they're more. They. They feel their identity is lesbian and not queer. They don't like. And this is. It's very. It's very interesting to me, and I understand why you can bite off more than you can chew in terms of a political strategy that the voting block is not ready for.

[Abby]

Right.

[Emily Saliers]

But it doesn't mean that there isn't some way that you have to keep fighting for that. So it's just really interesting to me now, these powers that have separated people, they've gotten into the queer community and, like. And it's like, diabolical. And it's like, no, no, no. We need to stick together.

[Amy Ray]

That's history, too, Emily, you know.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

Think about it. Remember the parades in Atlanta? And they'd be like, we don't want all the, you know, the queens at the front of the parade because.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

Then the. Then the families won't accept the parade. And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and then.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

You know, it's like this. The fight over femmes and butch lesbians, and just. There's always this, like, weird.

[Melissa Etheridge]

People want to close the door.

[Amy Ray]

Divisiveness.

[Melissa Etheridge]

People are always like, okay, we got in. But no, not, you know, it's like the safety. Yeah. It's like America. Just America, immigration, you know?

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Okay. Once the. You know, the Irish came over, they're like, okay, now we're close to the youth. You can't come over now. We're suffrage, you know.

[Host]

Okay, we'll just get the white ladies first.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah, Right. Yeah. It's this constant challenge of human beings to accept differences and this. The diversity. And diversity is scary to people, especially if you grow up in a place that's not diverse, then different people. That's why traveling is so good for people. So it's just people getting comfortable. They got comfortable with the gay thing. Okay. We were out there singing. We like. They liked our songs. We found the. Okay, there's gay people in sport. Okay.

[Amy Ray]

But.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And then eventually weird people will just be.

[Emily Saliers]

You know, it's.

[Melissa Etheridge]

It's a part of all of us.

[Amy Ray]

It is especially hard. I mean, is especially hard right now with the trans movement so under attack. For it to come, for our community to be.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

To sit in that seat, too, and. And start. It's just like, wow.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Y' all see it.

[Amy Ray]

Have you not learned.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Amy Ray]

From the past 50 years.

[Emily Saliers]

I mean, there's a great example in the world right now. How can a group of people who have been so oppressed, killed, separated, ostracized, treat another group of human beings no inhumanely.

[Host]

I think that's one of the things I've learned so much from our 20 year old. They don't even comprehend the idea of leaving anyone behind. Like, if this whole like compromising thing, like if they don't want us without the trans community, then fuck you, then we don't get any of us.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Right. Yeah.

[Host]

All of it is about. No, no, we'll stand together. Because what we. We're not even. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Like we're not even trying to get what you have.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah.

[Host]

We don't need your room, we don't need your. We'll just stick together because if we did, we'd be bigger and more powerful.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And if we call it intersectionality that these conservatives, these, the, the people that are afraid of us are also just a part of this. We're looking at you as. You're kind of weird.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

You know, and that's where the media and stuff comes in because it's all very one kind of sided. And if that's, that's our job, is to keep doing what we do, be successful, love what we do, show be up here so that pretty soon it's just. And those are the noisy ones. They've got all the power right now, but power is attention. So if we can be who we are, have more attention, then they become just part of the big soup.

[Abby]

Can you tell them about the Freedom Fleet?

[Host]

Well, I mean this is just a cheesy metaphor that I always use, but.

[Abby]

It'S not cheesy, it's very important.

[Host]

So in one day I was feeling extremely depressed about the onset lot of everything and like how are we going to respond and how do we resist something that's constantly. And I was rereading this essay by Michelle Exander that she wrote in the first Trump administration where she was saying, don't worry, we're not the resistance. Like the river of like yearning for love and justice, which is what all three of you have been singing about forever, is the river. That's the way of things. That is the energy, that's God.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And you're flowing with it or you're resisting it.

[Host]

And the. But the dam. The resistance is the other side. That's like, that's why all the laws and all the whatever. But it's not just the river. We have to be Human about, we have to get in the river.

[Amy Ray]

We need to figure out just, like, concrete thing you can do every day that makes a difference. That's not just helping someone feel better, but also, like, you know, like, the friends in LA that we have that do. The networks of people that alert people to when ice raids are going on or, you know, taking someone in or helping or, you know, if someone's like, I can't work here anymore, but I need to still make money, but I'm undocumented and I need help, and I need to have some kind of job, but I can't do it here because, you know, like, just try whatever it is that you can do mechanically. Like, I just feel like there's so many. It's so hard to figure out what to do. I know, because I'm always struggling with that. Like, what can I do that, like, is actually in the trenches and makes a difference. I think singing is good, but also, I have some extra time. I want to do something else, too.

[Abby]

Yeah, sure.

[Amy Ray]

So I want to help this person or help this kid or do this or that. And it's like, so if we get, you know, so if some trans kid gets, gives us a request to do something special for the family or do this or that, it's like, oh, yeah, we can do that. You know what I'm saying? Like, okay, there's something to do. It's like, just be on the lookout.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And everyone doing that is what creates change. Doing what you can do. Right there, there.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah. And people are different about what they do, aren't they? I mean, all the different ways, you know, I used to be like, they threw condoms at the Pope. What? You know, and it was like, that was important.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Emily Saliers]

I was too young to get that. Now I'm like, hell, yeah.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

And then my dad has this relationship with this Benedictine community in Minnesota, and I came to understand why a community of prayer was important and how that fit into the whole thing. But it's like, we have to respect all the input for good change, you know, no matter what form it takes, what it looks like.

[Host]

And we have to respect the people in different boats. There's this vibe of, like, I'm in this boat and you're in this boat, so you. But it's like, no, no.

[Melissa Etheridge]

We're all on the same river. You're all on the fleet. You're all on the same river.

[Host]

Yeah. And we need them in our boat, and we need to be in our boat, and we should just be the only thing we should Be yelling is go, go, go. Right.

[Emily Saliers]

But a lot of times white people think that it's their perspective is the perspective. You know what I mean?

[Host]

I have not noticed that, Emily.

[Emily Saliers]

So, like, if you're. If you're after the election and you're wringing your hands and you're crying like I did, and then you talk to a black woman who's been in the struggle not only her entire life, but her generations, her people, her. And then you're like, oh, yeah.

[Host]

And we're like, I'm gonna take my ball and go home because it's been two weeks.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

That's another thing, the perception of time.

[Melissa Etheridge]

The only thing you have control over is you and how you feel. And we don't realize how powerful that is.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Host]

Can you just first of all move in with me? And then while you're thinking about that, I actually just want to know, is there any. You mentioned inspiration from books, poetry, movies, tv? But like, what is. Do you have anything lately that's been especially delightful or healing to you in the art world, TV world? Anything?

[Abby]

And it also could be my answer, which is Love Island. So it could be very low brow, like, she's not gonna want that answer from you guys, but I just wanna make sure.

[Amy Ray]

Love Island.

[Abby]

Yeah, there's a. There's a range of things like Love Island. I'm just like, it's like the perfect medication for me right now.

[Melissa Etheridge]

There's a.

[Abby]

My children's too.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah. This isn't a Love island answer.

[Host]

Great.

[Melissa Etheridge]

But there's a book, it's called the Myth of Normal. Gabor, mate.

[Abby]

Oh, we love Gabor. Yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Gabor. Gabor. Gabor. Yes. Just. I mean, it's a big, thick book, but you will find comfort, you will find some understanding in why people think the way they do and then how you can heal your own inner stuff. To be of service.

[Amy Ray]

To be.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah, it is great service.

[Host]

Beautiful.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I would say that.

[Amy Ray]

Okay.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Love Island.

[Amy Ray]

Write that one down. I got into this writer, Imani Perry, and I just have read everything and then I reread it and then I listen to the audiobooks. Such a great perspective on so many things beyond race contextualizes so many things in such a beautiful way. So she's my, you know, new love of writing. But I have to say, my 11 year old, they sitting beside them on the. On the couch watching them play Minecraft is quite a calming experience for me. And they're really good at it and into it and. And we do a lot of things together. Besides that, I don't want y' all to think I'm just like six for six hours playing Minecraft, but they create universe. And I'm just sitting there and I'm just listening to all the beautiful sounds that Minecraft has and I'm just like, it's really so peaceful right now, so. And then we walk in the woods a lot. Those, those things I think 11 year olds are. That's a great age.

[Host]

Is Imani's work important to you because of the Southern thing? Because you're Southern to the South?

[Melissa Etheridge]

Probably.

[Amy Ray]

I mean, I. I think, yeah, I'm a broken record about the South. You know, I'm trying to also write about something different, but. Yeah, and I think. And I also think she brings. It's about the south, but she's. She has a way of bringing people in to the circle and understanding other people that are so different from herself and being truly empathetic, which is so hard to do. And she really does it, you know. And so, I mean, that book south to America was like. I think I listened to the audiobook twice, read the book twice. I just, I was like, this is. Commit this to my mantra. So, yeah, I think it helped me. It restored me to. In my town with my people to be patient and empathetic and loving. And I just, I'm such a Southerner, you know, and gave me more patience with my ancestors that are, you know, there's some rest in peace, but like, whoa, some of them should not rest in peace. I'll just say that.

[Host]

Work harder, do better.

[Amy Ray]

But yeah, so anyway, yeah, awesome. What's up for Emily?

[Emily Saliers]

Well, you know this friend, Kathleen, she's a friend of Amy Zavant. Now, you all know her.

[Amy Ray]

She's from Georgia.

[Emily Saliers]

I spent a few hours with her. She's a filmmaker, a very good filmmaker. And she also is doing this on the ground work with reporting when ICE shows up. I was so inspired. I've known this woman for decades. I was so inspired by the way she is living and working in the world. It was very. I don't know how to describe it. I was like. And it made me want to be a better person. So, like, I have all these people in my life. Amy's one of them too. That makes me, seriously, makes me want.

[Amy Ray]

I'm not trying to belittle that a.

[Emily Saliers]

Better person, you know, like, I have a lot of people in my life. We're very smart and, and active and. And so I'm always inspired by that. You know, Katie Gavin has been very important to me too. Yeah. Her personhood, her music, who. The people that she's introduced me to. And then like, I've really. Because I've struggled with my privilege, my whiteness. I've had a lot of, like. I don't know if guilt's the right word, but taken it into perspective in a way that has. Has diminished the power of joy in my own life with people I love. And so I'm very, very invested right now in spending time with people I love.

[Amy Ray]

And.

[Emily Saliers]

And I'm very fortunate to love my family. They're like, my friends hang with them. So I'm getting a lot of inspiration also. This is kind of weird, but we. I went to Scandinavia, my sisters and I took my dad and we went to the museum in Oslo, like the National Museum. And it was so well curated. And it was like the revival of the gothic area of art. And I was like, wow, curating is really important. Like, just like a well constructed sermon was always important. So I really had an appreciation for the work that goes into presenting something that was inspiring to me. And then I read Miranda July. I read both her books and I'm like, I love weird people.

[Amy Ray]

Like, just.

[Emily Saliers]

Just diversity and weirdness.

[Melissa Etheridge]

How many groups have split up in horrible stuff and these two genuinely still love each other. It's so. It's so great.

[Emily Saliers]

It's so inspiring. I'm thankful for it.

[Melissa Etheridge]

It's so inspiring. You guys are so cool.

[Amy Ray]

We love you. We love you.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And I like my little Indigo Girl sandwich. Very, very happy.

[Emily Saliers]

We're having a love to it.

[Abby]

We are so nice.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I want to throw in one more thing.

[Amy Ray]

Yes, me too.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Plant medicine hallucinogenics are healing and provide a lot of relief. And I'm gonna throw a little bit to my foundation.

[Host]

Oh, no, no, please. We want to hear. I read all about it. I'm ready.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, no, no. Say it.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Melissa Etheridge]

It's. Well, you know, cannabis is the one that. That everyone just. They use it recreationally, but I think any use of any plant medicine is medicinal. People just don't know it. And a psilocybin is. Got so much. There's so much microdosing and there's. It's all about facilitation, though. But the big work, the big work which the Etheridge foundation does is in opioid addiction. I lost my son five years ago and. And to see and understand the science. And this is where science and spirit meet. And the Etheridge Foundation, I'm right in the middle, really, bringing these two together because the Science is in our brain chemistry. Our neural pathways can be reset through plant medicine. This is not any sort of. This is not, oh, we're doing drugs. This is therapeutic work. With ayahuasca with ibogaine. Ibogaine is a. Iboga is a African root that for centuries they've been doing ceremony with. And one, sometimes just one journey, one four hour journey on ibogaine can let. The reason it helps addicts is because the. The addiction is the neurological pathway just going there. That needs to be fixed. It pauses that and you can rewire. The science is there. Etheridge foundation raises money for this research all over the world that shows that the science is working. There's a lot of hope there. There's a lot of relief.

[Abby]

Keep doing that awesome work.

[Host]

Where do people find that?

[Melissa Etheridge]

Etheridgefoundation.org and there's information there you can donate. You can help. You can. There's all kinds of things you can do.

[Emily Saliers]

That's great. Honestly.

[Amy Ray]

All right.

[Melissa Etheridge]

But there's. I just want to say that we've seen a lot of great things. A lot of hope.

[Abby]

I was a former opioid addict myself. So I very much understand. I've been sober for almost 10 years now. We've done a couple of. Of therapeutic treatments and it's a huge deal.

[Melissa Etheridge]

And there's a whole range. Yeah. So I'm really trying to also normalize that.

[Amy Ray]

Bring it out of the way work. It's. Yeah. I've seen a special about a couple that did that with a man who had PTSD from the war.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Oh, it's incredible how it saved his life. Changed their life. Because they rewired their neural pathways. It's the science.

[Amy Ray]

It's not really cool.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah.

[Emily Saliers]

And you see pathways that need to be rewired.

[Abby]

Come on.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Let's go rewire those pathways now.

[Amy Ray]

Very amazing.

[Host]

What about you guys?

[Emily Saliers]

Do you have anything?

[Amy Ray]

I do dog rescue.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Do you know what she does? She brings puppies to shows.

[Abby]

And it's hard for us.

[Emily Saliers]

We love it.

[Melissa Etheridge]

I'm going to.

[Amy Ray]

I don't do it.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Our tour motors are like, all right, door. You don't do it. Okay.

[Amy Ray]

I do dog rescue. But I didn't mean to do this one at this moment. And I have six right now. And then I had to rescue this 110 pound Rottweiler just out of puppyhood. Sweet. Sweet. But I can't keep it. I gotta find a home for this dog. He's great with kids. Don't know yet. He's so far pretty good with other dogs. We're not positive. He ignores cats. We're working with him, but he's at my house.

[Emily Saliers]

Okay.

[Host]

Anyone? So. So we need.

[Amy Ray]

No, I don't know. By the time this airs, he'll be adopted, I hope.

[Sponsor Voice]

Okay.

[Amy Ray]

But I mean, ideally it would be like, somebody that, like, doesn't even have, like, that's had rottweilers and wants another one because they lost one or something and likes to go run him with a big dog because he needs to be trained.

[Abby]

Did you guys see Tiki online at all? Are you online?

[Amy Ray]

No.

[Abby]

Okay. Simon Sits. Simon sits ig. This is a silly story now, but if you want to do yourselves a favor, just go to Simon Sits IG and then follow Tiki. She. This woman, Isabel, adopted a dog named Tiki and took us through the day by day process, and it was exactly what I needed right when Trump got elected.

[Emily Saliers]

Oh, cool.

[Abby]

That I was like, oh, my God. Like, one person saving one life.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Abby]

The content that I'm here for. So do yourself a favor.

[Emily Saliers]

That's beautiful for having her on dogs and opossums and, like, squid in my Instagram feed and.

[Amy Ray]

Anything else.

[Abby]

Highland cows.

[Amy Ray]

Oh, Highland cows are awesome.

[Emily Saliers]

The way cows love music.

[Abby]

Yes. Yes.

[Emily Saliers]

Okay. These guys have very, like, profoundly offered wonderful things. I want to plug my musical.

[Melissa Etheridge]

Yeah. That's huge.

[Amy Ray]

Like, we're on the View.

[Emily Saliers]

I know, I know.

[Melissa Etheridge]

That's funny.

[Emily Saliers]

So this is my first musical.

[Amy Ray]

That's awesome.

[Emily Saliers]

I'm writing. Thanks, Aim. I'm writing the music. And Beth Malone, who starred in Fun Home, wrote the book with her friend Marianne Stratton, who's a wonderful writer, taught public school for 30 years. So Marianne, Beth, and I wrote the show. It's called Starstruck, loosely based on Cyrano de Bergerac. And we have our first production at Bucks County Playhouse. And the first show is, like, February 20, 2026. So I'm really excited that we have a production. And I just. I'm sorry. But I do want to plug it. I want people to come. It's going to be midwinter up near Philadelphia.

[Abby]

Writing a play and songs for a Play is a different beast than what you're used to.

[Amy Ray]

It.

[Emily Saliers]

Is it fun?

[Host]

Was it a fun experience?

[Emily Saliers]

Oh, it's so. It's. It's fun. It's exhilarating. I'm around a lot of creative people who are really schooling me on things that I'm enjoying learning about.

[Abby]

Cool.

[Emily Saliers]

It's thrilling. It's thrilling.

[Host]

So cool.

[Emily Saliers]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. Psilocybin, Rottweilers.

[Amy Ray]

Yeah. My PSA is don't buy, don't buy from a breeder. Just freaking adopt a dog. They kill them every day. And that's. I don't, I know you don't want to hear that. People don't want to hear that. But the shelters are overcrowded. Even the no kill shelters in Georgia are having to euthanize. So do not just wait. You don't need. You can go online and find any breed you want.

[Emily Saliers]

That's right.

[Amy Ray]

Rescue organizations like just do it.

[Host]

Thank you so much, y'.

[Emily Saliers]

All.

[Host]

This is beyond what I ever.

[Amy Ray]

We love you guys.

[Abby]

Our first studio show and maybe last.

[Sponsor Voice]

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.