Insecurity, Anger, ADHD & Abby’s Retirement (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things Episode: Insecurity, Anger, ADHD & Abby’s Retirement (Best Of) Release Date: August 10, 2025 Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle

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1. Embracing Vulnerability Through Challenging Experiences

Timestamp: [02:03] – [08:28]

The episode kicks off with Glennon Doyle sharing a personal revelation inspired by James Clear's insight on habit formation: “You don’t rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems” ([02:17]). This sets the tone for a deep dive into how confronting challenging situations can foster personal growth.

Amanda Doyle recounts a recent rock climbing trip with Glennon, highlighting the mix of fear and focus required during such activities. At [03:40], Amanda reflects, “It was helpful for me,” emphasizing how being forced into the present moment during dangerous activities acts as a form of moving meditation, although Amanda initially resisted the meditative aspect ([04:03]).

Glennon adds, “You are forced to be in the present. You can’t be thinking about anything else other than what you are doing” ([03:35]). This shared experience underscores the value of stepping out of comfort zones to build mental resilience and embodiment.

2. Understanding and Harnessing Anger as a Protective Force

Timestamp: [21:09] – [33:14]

A listener question from Kathy about managing anger during the tumultuous period leading up to a divorce sparks an extensive conversation on the nature of anger.

Amanda delves into the concept of anger as an internal guard dog, stating, “That anger that she is feeling … is correct. That is an in protection” ([24:51]). She explains that anger signals boundary violations and serves to protect one’s emotional well-being.

Abby builds on this by illustrating how anger can prevent individuals from making necessary changes: “It's like a guard dog … we are not safe” ([27:35]). The trio discusses how society often shames anger, especially in women, leading to internal conflicts that exacerbate emotional distress.

Glennon emphasizes the transformative power of anger, describing it as “the rocket ship to what we're trying to get to, which is acceptance” ([31:08]). They agree that anger fuels the necessary energy to enact significant life changes, such as ending a harmful relationship.

3. Navigating Parenting with ADHD and Neurodiversity

Timestamp: [38:11] – [48:38]

Kathy’s question about balancing control while parenting neuroatypical teenagers with ADHD leads to a heartfelt discussion on parenting neurodiverse children.

Abby shares insights on embracing neurodiversity, mentioning successful individuals with ADHD like Shannon Watts and Bill Gates ([45:48]). She stresses the importance of helping children understand and accept their unique brains: “Let your kid understand how their brain works and they will be fine outside of school” ([47:00]).

Amanda adds personal experiences of parenting neuroatypical children, highlighting the challenge of shifting from being overly controlling to fostering a genuine relationship: “I was constantly responding to that … instead of responding to him as a human” ([39:29]). They discuss the societal pressures that define “good kids” and the necessity of redefining success within the family unit.

Glennon reinforces the idea that acceptance and support are crucial: “They’re gonna be okay” ([56:43]). The conversation emphasizes that moving away from fear and control allows children to thrive by navigating their own paths.

4. Abby Wambach’s Journey Through Retirement and Identity Shifts

Timestamp: [58:19] – [65:08]

The final segment addresses a listener’s curiosity about Abby’s transition from a celebrated athlete to retirement.

Glennon candidly shares her own experience with retirement, describing it as a period of intense fear and confusion: “A month after my retirement, I was basically drinking myself to death” ([58:31]). She details the challenges of redefining her identity beyond her athletic achievements and the solace she found in sobriety.

Abby and Amanda provide support, acknowledging the difficulty of such transitions. Glennon explains how embracing her new identity as a dedicated parent and podcaster allowed her to create a life that felt more authentic: “I've been able to step into and co-create a totally different life” ([61:16]).

The hosts conclude by celebrating their authenticity and the importance of supporting one another through vulnerable transitions. Glennon reflects, “I love doing this,” highlighting the strength found in their collective journey ([64:38]).

Key Takeaways

• Vulnerability as Strength: Embracing challenging experiences can lead to profound personal growth and resilience.
• Anger as a Protector: Understanding anger as an internal safeguard helps manage and utilize it constructively.
• Support Neurodiversity in Parenting: Redefining success and fostering acceptance are crucial in raising neuroatypical children.
• Identity Shifts Post-Retirement: Navigating life transitions with authenticity and support leads to meaningful new beginnings.

Notable Quotes

• “You don’t rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems.” – Glennon Doyle ([02:17])
• “That anger that she is feeling … is correct. That is an in protection.” – Amanda Doyle ([24:51])
• “They’re gonna be okay.” – Glennon Doyle ([56:43])
• “I've been able to step into and co-create a totally different life.” – Glennon Doyle ([61:16])

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This episode of We Can Do Hard Things delves into the complexities of vulnerability, the protective nature of anger, the nuances of parenting neurodiverse children, and the profound identity shifts that come with retirement. Through honest and heartfelt conversations, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda offer listeners valuable insights and relatable experiences, reinforcing the show's central message: we can navigate life's challenges together, becoming stronger and more authentic in the process.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome back to we can do Hard Things people.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you, love. Hi everybody. Welcome back to we can do hard Things.

[Glennon Doyle]

I already said it.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know you did. And it was really lovely. How are you two doing? You first, babe. How are you feeling this morning?

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm actually feeling good. For whatever reason, I feel like the last month I've been kind of like, like teetering on not good, but not bad.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

And now I've rose into the good stage.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh. To what do you attribute it?

[Glennon Doyle]

We went on a little short trip last week.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Little vacation, just you and me.

[Amanda Doyle]

You mean the vacation during which we found ourselves rock climbing?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. You opted into that. So I just have to remind you. She opted in, folks.

[Amanda Doyle]

And we were wearing harnesses and carabiners.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you were a better rock climber than me.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was like a mountain goat.

[Glennon Doyle]

You were Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was.

[Abby Wambach]

Really?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

No offense to the mountain goats out there.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. When I got really up on that rock, I thought, glennon, Doyle, your only hope. There's no going back. No one can help you. So you just have to concentrate and you have to make it through this. At which time I started focusing very hard on survival. I used my little carabiner. I carabined myself to the wire. I stayed very, very focused.

[Glennon Doyle]

What would you say about the presence that was required of you during that time?

[Amanda Doyle]

It was good, wasn't it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, it was a forced.

[Abby Wambach]

It was strong to fairly strong, like my portfolio.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it's like a forced presence. That's what I feel about, like, surfing and any kind of thing that has any danger element. You are forced to be in the present. You can't be thinking about anything else other than what you are doing. It's like a moving meditation.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Definitely didn't feel like meditating.

[Abby Wambach]

As you were approaching highway to the danger zone, were you, like, with every step, like, just, son of a bitch. Son of a bitch. Because there's a certain quality where you can either be like, I'm enjoying this, or I shouldn't be doing this. I'm pissed. I'm doing this. And now that I'm doing it, I need to be in survival mode.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, this is what I'm doing. First of all, Abby and I, when we got married, we realized we had very different ideas of what a vacation is. Okay. What I thought of vacation was very like, I'm going to go read a book. It's gonna be quiet. I'm gonna be horizontal. A lot like Abby's idea of a vacation is always involving some kind of carabiner or harness outfit.

[Abby Wambach]

Or not like, centric.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, very vertical.

[Abby Wambach]

Centric.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're vertical. Not even vertical, like flying through the air. We're in trees. We've climbed trees and walked across bridges and zip lines. We have gotten in a balloon and been k. Carried behind a boat in.

[Abby Wambach]

The air while our legs staying parasailing. It's not a. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

A balloon above us.

[Glennon Doyle]

We haven't done hot air balloon flying yet. That's fun.

[Amanda Doyle]

We have bundled ourselves in layers and layers of clothing, even when the inside is warm. And then we have gotten on machines that push us to the top of a mountain. And then we have jumped off the machine. And then we have hurdled ourselves down a mountain and. And we have paid more for all these things.

[Glennon Doyle]

What machine is this?

[Abby Wambach]

What?

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Amanda Doyle]

Skiing. Oh, the Ski lift, which, by the way, it's not even the terrifying part, the ski lift part, Right? That's just getting to the terrifying part.

[Abby Wambach]

It's the getting off the ski lift.

[Amanda Doyle]

That'S really the do's. Oh, my God.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like when you get an escalator and you're like, step, step, step, step, step, step, step.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm doing it. I'm going. I'm going. Yes, yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And then no one teaches you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I took one little, like, bunny slope thing and. And they were teaching me how to pizza and, like, do your little row. Your paddles. What is it? Your skis, your ski poles. Okay, so you're pizza ing them so you don't go too fast or whatever. Well, let me tell you what, they didn't teach me what to do when you fall down. So I kid you not. Four different times, the one time we went skiing and I'll never do it again. The little emergency patrol people.

[Abby Wambach]

Ski patrol.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. I would wait for them, I would fall down, and then I would just pull my phone out of my little ski pants and just lay there staring at the sky and play with my phone until a ski patrol came. Because there was no freaking way I was getting up. So I would just be on Instagram just laying there up my ass.

[Abby Wambach]

So.

[Amanda Doyle]

So, in fact, a very horizontal vacation. Yeah, very horizontal. I can make anything horizontal. I'm very creative. But here's the thing. I'm going to bring this back to my therapy, because that's what I do. All right? I think that one of my challenges is that I don't have a lot of agency in my body. I do not trust that I'm gonna be able to do shit physical things. And so then when I try them, I don't know what I'm doing, and I feel vulnerable and embarrassed. And so then I just quit and shut down. So, like, even if Abby wants to play catch, because people want to play fucking catch when they're 40 years old.

[Glennon Doyle]

Something to do.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't want to play catch. I don't know how to catch the ball. I feel stupid. All right? Apparently everyone else has been in catching class for 20 years. I don't know how to catch the ball. I don't know how to throw the ball. So the point, when we approached this rock, mountain, rock climbing situation, I thought of it as, here's an opportunity for me to practice agency in my body and to try to just look stupid and feel scared and just, like, do it anyway and see if I can trust my body to do something hard. And I did do it.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did it go?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, it went really well. And I did well. What I don't really still understand is the point.

[Glennon Doyle]

Really? Are you serious?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

We climb the mountain. It's very scary. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm not dying. And then I get to the top and I'm like, well, I did that thing and I didn't die. And that was good. And this view is nice, but honestly, I. I was on the ground before, you know, before I started this wholeness, before this whole rigamarole that cost me several hundred dollars.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, but you're not doing it just to be done with it. Like, you really got nothing out of it. The fact that you are working on Embodiment, the fact that you went up there because, you know, a couple years ago when we went skiing, this is pre therapy. So now you are kind of in your body and you were able to do this thing. I didn't see for one second you were, like, flailing or embarrassing. Did you feel.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I did feel embarrassed several times because I. When I feel vulnerable, when I couldn't find a toehold or I couldn't, I would get angry. I get angry inside and frustrated, and that is a cycle for me. When I'm scared, I get scary. When I'm vulnerable, I get mad because I think, what the fuck am I doing on this rock? I shouldn't be on this rock. No one should be on this rock. Who put me on this rock? Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Whose fault is it that I'm on this rock? So working through that and staying with the vulnerability and just being like, actually, I just have to find a toehold right now. And I can take my time and I can look stupid, but I can do it was really. Was helpful for me. And a couple things that I did learn that I felt like were good and helpful is that when we were crossing this one terrifying bridge, it was called a suspension bridge or something, and it was very rickety and bouncy, and I was terrified. And the dude who was crossing it turned back and yelled, don't worry, there's only as much bounce as you create. And I thought, well, if that's not true, I've been fucking Tigger my whole life. Just bounce and bounce and bounce and wondering why everything's so bouncy. Right. So you know what I'm saying? There's sometimes there's only as much anxiety as we create in our bodies.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

So you didn't feel when you got Done with that. Like, I did that. Good job, Glennon.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, I did feel like I did that, but, like, if I were had been laying at the pool reading, I would have been like, I'm doing this. I think there's probably things that are soaking in over time that I'm not, like, seeing yet. I was excited to have a vulnerable, different experience with you. I was excited to learn about the plants. Lots of metaphors there, but, yeah, so that's that. Sissy. How are you doing?

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I just realized something that is a real takeaway for me.

[Amanda Doyle]

What?

[Abby Wambach]

In your conversation, you said, what I still don't understand is the point. And I think what I'm gonna commission. You know how people have, like, live, laugh, love, kitchen, the wood signs all over their house? I'm gonna get one that says that.

[Glennon Doyle]

What I still don't understand.

[Abby Wambach]

What I still don't understand is the point. I think that's universally applicable to really everything.

[Amanda Doyle]

I can do it.

[Abby Wambach]

Also, I think what you were talking about with the catching the ball or whatever or doing any of these physical things, I feel like something we do is we preempt our anxiety or embarrassment by becoming a kind of caricature of someone who can't do the thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, I can't catch this ball.

[Abby Wambach]

I can't. And if I present that caricature, then it's funny, and I don't look like someone who is actually trying and maybe struggling to catch the ball. And so I think it's kind of like a pretense in some ways that we do that. It just made a connection to me with the sex episodes where we're talking about, like, what is it so. Where you feel so frozen, like, you can't talk, and then you have this, like, baby voice. It's like, the same idea. It's like, it's so vulnerable to. To show that I'm trying or that I might be actually meaning to do this thing that I'm doing that I have to just be like, I can't do it. I can't talk during sex.

[Amanda Doyle]

I can't.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like a connection.

[Amanda Doyle]

That is the conversation we had after, she was like, why is it so weird for you to do those things? Like, try this physical thing or play. Try to play catch or, like, try to play pickleball with the family. They're all very athletic. It's because I can either do that caricature or I can actually try really hard. And trying really hard. Anything is so vulnerable.

[Abby Wambach]

This is me trying.

[Amanda Doyle]

This is me trying is so vulnerable. I feel like that with the podcast. Sometimes anything I'm doing, I'm like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. I'm trying so hard and I feel like, what is that Taylor Swift line? Like, I've never been a natural. All I do is try, try, try. Like I'm flailing about trying so often in my life that, what, now I'm gonna go do it on the fucking pickleball court too? And it's so obvious. Cause my limbs are literally flailing and other people look like they can do it easier. I just think it's the ultimate, like uncool is looking like you're trying so hard, which is obviously what makes it so cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my gosh. I couldn't disagree more. I think like the most cool thing is people trying.

[Amanda Doyle]

Me too. But it's like the belief system is.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, I know. And I know that the whole caricature thing is a. Is a thing especially for people who are trying something very new. I guess my philosophy in life is like to try your best every thing you do. Like to try to become an expert at it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. I wonder if there's some like, gender stuff in there because you were always physical and you weren't a sideline person. I was a sideline person. I was like the girl who would watch her boyfriend play video games. I know we've talked about that before. Like, even if someone was playing a video game, I wouldn't play it. I just was like used to being the person on the side and I didn't get a lot of practice.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I guess it's about what you think you're good at. Right. Like, school was never something that I was confident in. And so that's definitely something that I probably joked about with that I like. Or like reading.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Like I'm a shitty student.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm like a bad reader. Slow. And so I'm just like, oh yeah. Like that's. And so I probably make jokes around.

[Abby Wambach]

That if it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Because if you're like my defense against feeling embarrassed or being bad at something is making a joke about how shitty I am at it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Totally.

[Abby Wambach]

Then you don't try it. It's not necessarily true that you're bad at those things. You're bad at them because you don't engage in them.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

But you don't engage with them because you're scared to engage with them. And then it becomes this. Just like snowballs. And that's how women end up not knowing what they like.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

They don't try shit that. That feels like they could be embarrassed doing it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And that's why keeping girls in sports is so important. Your thing would be like schooly, brainy, reading, academia. Academia. My thing would be physical things.

[Glennon Doyle]

So funny. It's like we're polar opposites in that way, of course. Interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

What do you think is the thing for you that you aren't super comfortable with so you don't try? As much as might be beneficial for you to have the full human experience.

[Abby Wambach]

I think it's the exploring sexual stuff. I feel like there is so much potential to be like, hugely embarrassed in exploring sexuality. It's one of the only areas where I feel like I am unexplored terrain in terms of being like, what about that? What about this? Have I ever thought about what I wanted? I. I'm pretty clear on what I want in every other part of my life. I just haven't thought. I haven't really thought about it. When I think about it, I'm like, Yikes, McBikes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yikes, McBikes.

[Abby Wambach]

Very cool.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

All right, well, we're going to get to some pots Pod questions today. Very thrilled about that. We haven't done.

[Glennon Doyle]

These are some of my favorite days.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, y'.

[Glennon Doyle]

All.

[Amanda Doyle]

The inbox of our answering machine is that we still call them. Okay. Is just a treasure trove of the most beautiful questions, most beautiful stories. Someday we're gonna figure out how to, like, use all of this gold that the pod squad just sends into us every single day. But for today, we're just gonna grab some and see. We never have any answers. We just have a lot of responses and thoughts and ideas.

[Abby Wambach]

Ooh, get it? Call and response.

[Amanda Doyle]

Call and you'll get a response. Very good.

[Abby Wambach]

And we response.

[Amanda Doyle]

Very good.

[Abby Wambach]

Sometimes I think things are so clever in my head, and when I say them, I'm like, that wasn't that clever?

[Amanda Doyle]

Let's hear our first one.

[D]

Hi, Glennon. My question is, when you knew that you needed to get a divorce in order to have space so that you could love Craig again? Or maybe not again, but, you know, when that was all happening, but before you guys were able to have separation and space and you were still feeling so angry, like, what did you do with that anger? Like, I'm so angry, and there's a end date coming up, but it's still months away. I still have to be in close proximity with this person, and I don't want to feel this way. I know that you're supposed to feel your feelings, but it fucking sucks being so angry this morning. If you had some advice and thank you so much.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't know exactly where to start with this one because I've been on such an anger journey with this literal situation that she's discussing. I mean, I have some different thoughts about anger. The first thing I think about is we have a joke with Sister that, you know that thing where you can't tell a certain person in your life certain things that other people have done to you or that you're mad about because you know that. That your. Your fury at them might pass, but you have that one person who so has your back. There's that meme that's like, I would like to take you back, but I already told my sister what you did.

[Abby Wambach]

You can't really disclose until you're ready to really release that person.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Because it's over. Or hear.

[Abby Wambach]

Or hear every day for the rest of your life.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And so sometimes when I talk about that, about just that phenomenon of having someone who has your back so totally that they will create a wall of fury to protect you from something that might hurt you. People feel jealous of that. Right. God, I wish I had a sister that would do that. I wish I had a best friend that would do that. I wish I had. And that is true. It is a very lucky, wonderful thing. But I also think that it is true that we all have that fierce protector inside of ourselves. It's like this person who has been hurt so badly by this other person, by her soon to be ex, has that sister protector inside of her, and that is her anger. So her anger is the part of her that knows that her boundaries have been crossed, that her field of honor has been stepped on, that she has been hurt, and that now the boundary needs to change. So until the boundary changes, that part of her is going to rage to.

[Abby Wambach]

Protect her, to ensure that what needs to be done is done.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

To reestablish that boundary.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And until then is a fucking guard dog. Is like, no, like, I'm protecting you, I'm protecting you, I'm protecting you. And so that anger that she is feeling when she comes into what is too close of proximity to feel comfortable for her guard dog inside is correct. That is an in protection. Right. That is a signal. That's saying a part of her that's saying, we're not safe, we're not safe, we're not safe, we're not safe. There's a part of. Of me that wants to say to her, just like, turn to that part of you and say thank you. Like, we've got this, we've got this. And sometimes I feel like with. With women especially, and I only say this because I've had this specific conversation with several women that I trust deeply recently. It is not sometimes the actual anger that feels too painful to bear. It's the feeling that we're not supposed to have that anger. So we're resisting that anger. So we're trying to push it away. So we're trying to fix it, so we're trying to shame ourselves for feeling it. That becomes two forces, like, pushing against each other. That's what becomes insufferable. Because actually, like, I've been taught to when you. So this woman's in the kitchen with her partner, and this woman feels the anger come up and she turns toward it and like, loosens up and is like, okay, so what is that? Oh, it usually feels like it really is an emotion. So it's like energy and motion in your body. What does it feel like? It feels like my chest is clenching up a little bit. I'm having thoughts because I'm remembering them. Pissed about this. I'm pissed about this. I'm pissed about this. My hands are sweating a little bit. And that's it. That's it. That's all that anger feels like. Unless, of course, then there's another voice saying, don't feel angry. Why do you feel angry? Of course you know why you feel angry. Because you have an internal protective self that knows you've been hurt by this person and is not going to calm down and is not going to feel peace until you have established a new boundary to keep yourself safe enough for that part of you to relax. So actually, you do not want that anger to be shamed away or to repress. That's a part of you that is activated to keep you safe. Right. To give you important information.

[Abby Wambach]

I wonder if. Because I'm just thinking as you're talking that the phenomenon of activated anger and what that part is playing in our lives. So, for example, if you have a group of friends and you get in a fight with one of them, you often feel the need to voice that anger. Get. Get it out there. Because you're basically, like, defending your position and you need it to be known, and you want others to see you when really, at the end of the day, the original deed has been done. It's like, that person wronged me. I have a new boundary with that person. And now I have that information, and I'm establishing that to take care of myself. But all the rest of the stuff is, like, trying to justify.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Trying to, like, get people to understand. And so I wonder if you're in this position where it's two of you. I wonder if there's some of that dynamics going on where, you know, are people from the outside being like, you should forgive him, or like, what is that anger operating against? Is it the internal conflict that you just talked about where I should be more gracious, I should be more forgiving, or is it coming from other places? Because I feel like if you can turn to your anger and say, thank you for protecting me, you are an amazing guard dog. And I promise you that we are not equivocating here. I promise you that whether you choose to rage and bark for the next three months, or whether you wish to be just still and resolute inside of me, I am going to get us out of here. So, like, you don't need to bark anymore at me to remind me, I've got you and we're getting out. A guard dog barks because they need you to be aware that something's happening and do something about it. But if there's a way that you can assure yourself that you're not going to go back on it, then maybe you can have more peace. Because sometimes it's internal. Like, I need to rage because I'm worried I'm going to go back against myself.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, I think that that's real. I can say for me, my anger didn't stop until my internal, like, rage did not abate. I don't think anger knows there's a plan. That's all I know. Like, I don't think that internal anger can. Like, a dog wouldn't understand if you were like, yeah, it would keep.

[Abby Wambach]

It would keep barking. You actually went down and removed the person.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I think it would help. Like, I think that helps, but I think there's still something that Is just, like, animal, like, inside you that doesn't intellectualize. So it can't understand that you're in three weeks, you're gonna be moving out or whatever. Cause I didn't feel it really settle. It really, like, calmed down, stopped barking until Craig and I signed our divorce papers. Like, on the elevator down from. We were together, and we were in the elevator, and we were good. Like, we were cool. We were whatever. But I didn't feel, like, tender again until after it was signed.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that there is something really positive to look at when we talk about anger. Anger is, like, the clue. It's like the rocket ship to what we're trying to get to, which is acceptance. Sadness will come along the way and being able to move on.

[Amanda Doyle]

Mm.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so when we are angry, Right. I know that people get angry in relationships, and this is not the kind of anger we're talking about. We're talking about, like, the betrayal detective anger, the kind of anger that is forcing you to make a change in your life. Right. And anger is, like fuel that allows you to get to different places along the path of healing.

[Amanda Doyle]

So. Good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. And, like, I believe deeply because I don't get angry often. But when I do, I try to get straight to the sadness as fast as I can. And the only way I've ever learned to be able to do that is by accepting what has happened as fast as possible. And that's not easy, reestablishing boundaries. I totally believe all of what you're just saying. But in order to really get into the rocket ship and. And get. And move through this, having to accept what has happened, that's been the hardest thing for me to do.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the rethinking about it and the rumination over and over, and every time you see the person, it triggers you. Like, all of that stuff is, to me, just a lack of acceptance. And you might not be able to accept the situation by still being inside of it.

[Amanda Doyle]

And maybe it's what you're saying is making me so. Like, anger has energy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Sadness, like, in order to get out of a relationship, like this woman is trying to do, it takes such incredible energy. Yes, it does. It's so hard. It's damn near impossible. Rearranging your life, rearranging your finances, trying to figure out how you're gonna get forward, dealing with. You have kids, your family, your friends, the amount of energy it takes. If you were only left with sadness or depression during that time, you would not have.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

The fire.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

That is required to. To begin again, to have another big bang, like, to begin another universe. So could we look at anger too, as not only a protector, a guard dog, but the fuel that like is given to us in order to make change? Because if not, we just lay down and cry.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Just give up.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. The specific question is, what did I do with it beforehand? And I would just ask, and by saying, the truth of the matter is that I tried so hard to not be angry that I would be angry at myself for being angry at Craig. My mind was a clusterfuck about it, like layers of inception, shame and anger. But what my body would never do is listen to my brain. So what would happen is that Craig would reach out to me and my body, I would recoil. My body was not letting me out of it is all that I can say. Like, my body was like, I don't know how you're gonna try to rationalize this in your brain, but good luck getting me on board. The truth that I did not feel safe. It didn't matter how many therapists, how many stories, how many justifications, how much religious shame about forgiveness, none of it mattered. At the end of the day, my body was saying, we are not safe. We need a new boundary, and we're not gonna relax until you get it for us. I think we just make friends with and respect the anger. And we know that no matter what we say to it, it is not gonna go away until we've done what it needs us to do for it. I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think Alma is so cool. Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through Alma say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that that level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a l m a.com hardthings hey everyone.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

On this show we talk a lot about resilience and what it really means to support one another. For healthcare and wellness professionals, that's the job day in, day out. Doctors, nurses, dentists, chiropractors, therapists, they're the ones who show up for us. So it's just as important that they feel supported too. That's why we partnered with Figs for too long scrubs were just an afterthought. Not anymore. Figs scrubs are thoughtfully designed in innovative fabrics made to meet the demands of the job and look good doing it. There's a full range of styles and go to colors plus limited edition drops that bring a little joy into the everyday day. With back to school season upon us, it's the perfect time to stock up with some fresh outfits for the year. And Figs just dropped a brand new collection of limited edition styles and accessories. If you're in healthcare or shopping for someone who is, you can get 15% off your first order at wear figs.com with the code FIGS RX that's wer figs.com code FIGS RX X okay, let's do Kathy.

[D]

My name is Kathy and I'm raising two beautiful boys who are both neuro atypical. My youngest has ADHD and my oldest is being tested soon for a high functioning autism spectrum disorder and he is a teenager going into high school so he's very high functioning but struggles socially and particularly. My question is around him. I am a recovering codependent and trying to parent a teenager who can't really sense certain social situations the way that a neurotypical teenager would be able to. So I feel like I have to have some pretty tight reins on him, you know, like on his phone and on his relationships and trying to be involved. But I'm also painfully aware of the fact that I'm codependent and that those things might just be challenging for me anyway, even if he was completely neurotypical. So I'm just wondering how you balance control, how to know whether you're holding the reins too tight when it comes to raising kids, especially kids that need a little extra help. I hope that makes sense. Thank you so much.

[Abby Wambach]

Those are big questions, the big questions, and I think they probably apply to every kid. I will say that I do not have direct experience having a kid with autism, but I do, as Kathy is going through right now, do have the experience of testing for it and having it be within the ecosystem of possibility. And we do have neuro atypicality in our home. And it sounds like they both have diagnosed adhd. I have found that the hardest part about this is that we are given this message, okay, your child has a disability. Your child needs help and needs support and may need medication. And we need to build in structures to support them. And so every alarm is going off in your head that they need a lot of help. And we talk about this specifically in the context of school a lot. And down the road from school is career, right? So we're what, what is the 504? What is the IEP? What are all of the supports and structures we can build in to make things okay for them? And we never talk about it outside of that ecosystem in terms of the social supports, the role it plays in a family unit. It's like it starts and ends at school and none of the rest is talked about. And so first I would just like to mention the school piece of it. I am of the belief that yes, those supports are necessary and I know that it's a disability. And I know that there's a lot that is wonderful about naming things a disability and getting the services you need. I also know that a very large percentage of the world is diagnosed with adhd and that there are people that are absolutely thriving who have adhd. They may not thrive in school. I, I have had to make adjustments that they may not get the test scores and the grades that match up to what were my previous expectations or their capabilities, that their level of intellect will not be reflected in their school scores. And that's a hard pill to swallow. But once you do, I think it becomes easier And I've just tried to accept that if they can understand who they are and if they can live in who they are without self medicating, then they will be absolutely fine in the long run. If you think about the people that have ADHD that have found their way into their passion, you've got Shannon Watts, who credits her ADHD with being able to hyper focus to the extent of taking on the NRA and, and virtually taking them down with mom's demand action. Emma Watson, Simone Biles, Lisa Ling, Justin Timberlake. He has OCD and add. Dave Pilkey started writing his incredibly successful Dogman books while he was in detention at school because that's where he was put. Cause they didn't know what to do with him. Bill Gates said he was always having difficulty concentrating and learning things in school. I mean, it's all right, just get through school and have your kid understand how their brain works and they will be fine outside of school. It's really hard because it's like you need to let them struggle to learn their own competencies. Like they need to learn natural consequences of what happens. But they also need more support, which sometimes comes really close to looking like you're saving them from their natural consequences. When my kid leaves for baseball, it's like, you're 10 years old. You've got to learn to know that you have all your stuff. But I'm like, is that reasonable for someone with adhd? Where is the line between where you're kind of coddling them and saving them from learning and also being like, but this is, this is what you're dealing with in life. Whether it's fair or not, you're going to have to be able to make this work for you at some point. I don't think there's an easy answer and it's really freaking hard. And the only thing that I have learned that helps is that what I found I was doing so much is being so scared for the natural consequences that I was being in a relationship with my son's behaviors and struggles and not in a relationship with him, that every time something would happen I would say, well, what did they say? Are they mad? Are you in trouble? What? And so I was constantly responding to that. Instead of responding to him as a human and trying to make a relationship with him as a human. And we talked about this in episode 166. That was about my change from trying to use my love to help him and instead using my love to love him. And the thing that we know about kids with ADHD is they often feel like they're letting others down and they often feel like they're doing things wrong and they often feel like they are not quote, unquote good. And so if you are just having a relationship with struggles and behaviors, you are feeding into that idea that they are not good. Even though everything in your body is trying to make them be okay and good, they can believe that they are not. The thing that has worked really well in our family is that something I didn't know before the diagnoses is that if your kid has ADHD, there is a 40% chance, at least that you or the other parent will have ADHD.

[Glennon Doyle]

And will have it or have it.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, has it whether it's diagnosed. And that number is probably higher because so many of us growing up in a different era were not diagnosed. So I haven't gone through the process yet. I'm going to, but my husband has and he has adhd. And so I think that's a gift you can give your kid if you're willing to go through and find out the way you work that we are able to say to Bobby, your brain works the way your dad's brain works in this way and he doesn't feel othered and he doesn't feel like there's something wrong with him, that he's not gonna be able to figure out life because he looks at his dad and he's like, you figured out life. And I think that helps the whole family. You know, like John takes his medicine, Bobby takes his medicine. It's not like he's the person that there's something wrong with. Which incidentally, if you are someone in the family who does not have ADHD and you have a child with adhd, there is a high percentage that your partner will have adhd. And it's something that's not talked about a lot. But when you are the singular parent who does not have is a huge struggle. Because what kids with ADHD need is they need consistency, they need schedules and they need structure and it becomes overwhelming. And so we actually, concurrently with Bobby's medication, John got back on his, which he hadn't been in since college. And that has been a giant gift to me because I feel like he can more actively participate in the consistency when he couldn't before. I think it's a real set up in a lot of extent because it's like they have a disability, they need tons of help and they need to learn to deal with what they've got. And you can't Be saving them from everything. And it's not an answer other than to say, it's really fucking hard, Kathy. And I think the key thing is just making sure they know that your fear for what their life is going to look like doesn't become their fear for what their life's gonna look like. And that whatever is happening with them is gonna be what's happening with them forever. So you can't save them from that. You can only help them cope and navigate and not believe that they are bad. Because if they believe that they are bad or if they believe that whatever's happening in their life is wrong, then they are going to start self medicating and then the ADHD is going to be the least of our problems.

[Amanda Doyle]

If our culture is based upon good kids are the ones who sit for eight hours, are the ones who raise their hand, are the ones who are listening constantly, are the ones who are on time, are the ones who are not talking back. We have a very particular cultural idea about what a good kid is. If these neurological differences keep a kid from even being it being possible for them to match the culture's idea of what goodness is. How does a family. How do you still create the idea of goodness? What a family then defines as goodness? How do you redefine it? How do you say to a kid, I know that you're going to get every. Because it's not that they're not getting those messages, that they're just like pulling them out of thin air. They are getting those messages. I was a teacher. I know. Those are the kids who have to go to the principal's office. Who people. Kids roll their eyes at who are disruptive in air quotes. Right. Like besides the fact that no kids should be having to sit for eight hours. But that's a different story. How does a family then it almost feels that it would be necessary to actually name that in a family whose kids can't match that and say we have a different standard for goodness and success and love. Because in that world out there, of course I think about the queer kids, whoever in a home is not going to be affirmed out there. How do you create a, you know, like Michelle Obama says, go out in the world, go ahead, but come here. Here's where we like you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

What do we do to create that? And what have you seen work in your home?

[Abby Wambach]

I think in some ways it really does start with the blessing of this being hereditary is that your kids know and believe that you are good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And when you can make a parallel to say, our only goal is to understand you, and our only goal is to help you align yourself with your own values. So what? The values I see in you are these. And you look at your dad. See how he does. See how he can look at anyone's baseball swing and no one else can do this. But within looking at a baseball swing for 20 seconds, he can diagnose down to the twitch of a fan fingernail, the way that that child needs to adjust their swing to be successful. That's because of the way his brain works. And your brain works like that, too. You know how you can remember every single baseball statistic that of every game you've ever played in? That's the way your brain works. I can't do that. It's seeing them love that. And not just seeing the part that that gives you grief. It's seeing the way their brains work and seeing the gifts. It's talking about Shannon Watts. See how much you care about violence in schools. See how deeply it affects you. That's the beauty of your brain. And you're gonna be able to do whatever you want because of that. And also, let me show you the other parts of the way your brain works. Let me show you why things happen at school that you don't want to happen. It's because impulsivity is a thing for you. So let's talk about what works for you in that and what doesn't. And I know you care about being a good teammate. I know that you want nothing more than to be a good teammate to your friends. And also, when something bad happens on the field, you will sometimes react in a way that is inconsistent with your values, to be a good friend. So what can we practice to help you align your behavior with your values?

[Amanda Doyle]

I love it.

[Abby Wambach]

And also, like, when. Honestly, it's horrible for me to say, but when I was in a relationship with. With his behaviors and his struggles, there was less for me to see. To love and adore and protect.

[Amanda Doyle]

Of course.

[Abby Wambach]

But when I put down that mantle of having to be in a relationship with his struggles and his challenges, it opened my eyes to everything that is so beautiful that I want to protect in him. As opposed to protecting from him.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Oh, God, Sissy, you are such a beautiful mother.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. I just learned a lot about a person, a mother that I want to be.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Because it's like everything. It's not like some people have things that are bad and some people have things that are good. We all have things. And there's ways that that thing Is challenging. And there's ways that that thing is beautiful. And it's like this thing that you have in your life, it is gonna make life hard. And it could also be the thing that makes your life extraordinary. And here's all that shit on either side.

[Abby Wambach]

And we talk about that too. From my. The way my brain works. Guess what? I was very, very, very good at school. I did all the shit you were supposed to do. I never got in trouble. And guess what the tricky side of that equation is? You're so focused on performing that you're not really sure what is of you and what is expected of you. Anyone who doesn't think there is a flip side of every gift or challenge is fooling themselves.

[Amanda Doyle]

And every freaking thing that our kids happen to our kids is like just a sledgehammer of every worldview, everything we've ever had for ourselves. So just being someone who has created such an identity on being good and staying within the lines and then having children who are constantly coloring outside of the lines, how has that changed your perception of worthiness in the world? Like, how to walk on the earth? Because I imagine that they have been little teachers for you also. Do you find yourself coloring outside of the lines more or being like, fuck you, world? I actually don't care about your ideas of goodness anymore.

[Abby Wambach]

It was really, really, really hard. I'm not trying to rose color it. For the first two years, it was pretty devastating to me because I was like, what does this mean he won't be able to do? How will his choices be limited? Will he not be able to go to the schools that I went to? Is all of that just, like, off the table? But I think in a roundabout way, it liberated me early from the fiction that others maybe are able to carry for longer, which is that your kids, the good things that they do, are a reflection of you. The bad things that they do are a reflection of you. Who they become is about you. And in this beautiful way, I was disabused of that quite early because I'm like, this is a whole ass human being. That is who they are. And how limiting that would be to be like, oh, that part is me. Oh, this is. Here we go down this path. It worked for me.

[Amanda Doyle]

You can't love them. At least you have a chance to love your children, because you cannot love something that you believe is a reflection of you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And I'm coming at it with a real genuine ass curiosity, because beginner's mind.

[Amanda Doyle]

Every damn thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Beginner's mind. Because I'm like, what I don't understand is the point.

[Glennon Doyle]

They're gonna be okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I firmly believe that they're gonna be okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Firmly. And I think if you just believe that, then you can just put that aside. They're going to be okay. Okay. Bill Gates is okay. Once you just decide that they're gonna be okay, it takes the weight off of the rest of it. Now your job is to just love them and help them navigate, which, by the way, incidentally, is the job of every parent.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And just to see them as separate entities that you do not completely understand.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And that you're not superior to. Like, I. There's things that they can do that I could never do.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. Let's hear from Chris.

[D]

Hi, sister. And Abby and Glennon, this is Chris. My question for Abby is. I have always wondered. Abby went from, you know, superstar athlete, the world watching her in all of those high powered soccer games, and then she retired, and then her identity, I think, had to shift and change. Certainly now she's a mom and all these other things and an advocate. And I'm interested in, you know, a month after retirement, what did it feel like for Abby? You know, was she on the struggle bus? Was it tough? Was it. Did she know it was coming? And so it was easier. Just kind of interested in that whole identity shift thing. I have to believe it was huge. Love you guys. Talk to you later. Bye.

[Glennon Doyle]

Chris, what a good question. Well, a month after my retirement, I was basically drinking myself to death.

[Amanda Doyle]

Struggle, bus, struggle. Super check.

[Glennon Doyle]

Super easy time there. I was terrified of retiring. I didn't know what kind of a life that I wanted to live. And I was also going through a divorce. Nobody talks about that transition enough. I think that we all just assume we're gonna, like, sail off into the retirement sunset. But I was 35 years old, and I hadn't made enough money, so I had to, like, have a. Find a new career, a job. And I actually don't know if I have ever been so untethered in my life. And I think that that was a big reason why I was turning to alcohol and struggling to figure out what I wanted. Because for so long, it was so clear. It was so easy. I had this road that I traveled down, and I was like, a feminist and I was a sports star, and I was just doing everything that I had dreamt of doing. How do you top that? Like, really? That was a big concern of mine. I will never do something that will give me this much joy, which is why it was so Terrifying.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like, is the rest of my life just a decline?

[Glennon Doyle]

That's it? Is this as good as it gets? That's a horrific thought. Luckily, I got sober a couple couple months after my retirement and that for me changed everything. It allowed me to deal with the feelings of terror, to deal with the confusion, to just let myself be a little untethered for a while. And then we meet. I become kind of an insta mom and I, I was able to kind of jump into a new life because of my sobriety. I could start fresh. It was like the Etch a Sketch where I just shook the thing up and it was clean slate. And I actually feel like. And this is, I don't know how, if this is just special to me how my brain works, but I decided, okay, I'm going to become the best parent in the world.

[Abby Wambach]

Gold medal parent.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I know that that's not possible and so ridiculous thing to think or say, but that's just how my brain works. And so, you know, I got into like the car line and chit chatting with the parents at the school.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it's true, she was like, I'm Glennon's wife. They were like, who's Glennon?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, they were like, she's never come to chit chat before.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. But I do think that it took me about two years to settle into this new identity. In fact, both of you came down to Florida where we were living at the time, to do the Abby summit. Do you remember the summit?

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I had to like, I had to like figure out how to be a person. I didn't know how to like do adulting.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, what's a calendar? What's a schedule? Like, it was literally like very kind of how to make a list.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then we had to do list and we put a plan together around what are the things that I enjoyed doing, what did I love? What was I good at? Now fast forward to right now today. I did not have podcaster on my list of things that I thought would be my life, but I think that that's what's so beautiful. Around the time of transition that I was in, I was able to kind of go and create rather than be sad about what I left. I've been able to step into and co create a totally different life and one that I think I was more meant for than soccer player life. That was a very unique kind of path and I think very few people are capable of doing it. Not because they're not good enough at it, but because it requires a different kind of personality, a different kind of mindset to be able to travel and be on the road for 300 days a year and not have stability and not have security and a job. I felt like my body and my heart and my soul came home in a way that I had never really felt before. So, yes, it was terrifying, that transition. Yes, it was very scary. But I was able to find people around me that could support me through that walk home to myself. In a way. I don't know. That was kind of boring.

[Amanda Doyle]

Are you kidding? It's so beautiful. Why do you think that what you say is boring? Is this, like, you feel vulnerable, like, when you're rock climbing?

[Abby Wambach]

This is your caricature?

[Amanda Doyle]

Is this when you're rock. This is your caricature? This is you feel like you're rock climbing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, So I have to say this. Oh, God, you two are, like, the best podcasters in the world to me.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

The way that you craft your responses and you have all of these analogies and amazing answers, I just like, talk from my heart. And so there are times that when I start going, I realize I have made no sense. It's just been super honest from where I'm at. And so I do get a moment where I feel like this isn't as good as their answers.

[Amanda Doyle]

Babe, I feel certain that if we pulled the pod squad and said, who is it on this pod that makes your heart open the most that you adore, I think they'd probably try to say it in a way that didn't hurt our feelings, because that's how they are. But I believe that you are the heart that you are.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, but some people aren't coming for the heart, right? And I respect that. Like, I think that all three of us appeal to different parts of people as they're listening.

[Abby Wambach]

You're everyone's favorite. You're everyone's favorite, and you don't talk about it anymore.

[Glennon Doyle]

But I have, like. I do. I have, like, an actual, you know, insecurity around it at times, and I think that it comes out when I have to answer some of these questions.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, now you know how I feel when I'm wearing a carabiner and how sister feels when she's trying to be naked in bed and have sex. We all have our challenges. Okay. I love you.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you, too.

[Amanda Doyle]

We can do hard things, Cece.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you. I love doing this.

[Abby Wambach]

I love you so much, Abby. I love you, G Bird. I love you, Pod Squad.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can't believe we get to do this.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye.

[Glennon Doyle]

See you next time.

[Abby Wambach]

Bicycle.

[Amanda Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasse, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.