It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things
Episode: It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson
Release Date: April 22, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, Marine Biologist and Climate Policy Expert

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in an enlightening conversation with Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, a renowned marine biologist, policy expert, and the author of What If We Get It? Visions of Climate Futures. The discussion centers around shifting perspectives on climate change, fostering collective action, and envisioning a sustainable and thriving future for our planet.

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Shifting Perspectives: From Doom to Possibility

Dr. Ayana Johnson emphasizes the importance of changing our narrative from one of doom to one of possibility. Instead of fixating on the catastrophic outcomes of climate change, she advocates for asking, "What if we get it right?" This shift not only fosters hope but also encourages actionable steps toward positive change.

Dr. Ayana Johnson [06:39]: "Instead of obsessing over what if we blow this, we have to ask, what if we get it right."

Amanda Doyle builds on this by highlighting how focusing solely on the negative can lead to paralysis and avoidance of responsibility.

Amanda Doyle [07:01]: "If we're just talking about the doom, then everyone freaks out and shrinks back... It's not totally written yet."

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The Importance of Civic Engagement and Accountability

The conversation delves into the necessity of civic accountability in driving climate action. Dr. Johnson points out that meaningful change requires collective responsibility beyond individual actions.

Amanda Doyle [08:03]: "It's sort of a calling in, like, okay, like, we still get to shape the future. It's not totally written yet."

She argues that fostering a sense of accountability within communities can bridge the gap between knowing what needs to be done and actual implementation.

Dr. Ayana Johnson [11:37]: "We have to change basically everything... How can we build the best possible future together?"

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Systemic Changes vs. Individual Actions

While individual actions like reducing personal carbon footprints are valuable, Amanda Doyle stresses that systemic changes are paramount. Transitioning to renewable energy, improving public transit, and enhancing building efficiencies are critical components of a broader solution.

Amanda Doyle [08:11]: "We need to transition from an economy and a society that's based on fossil fuels to one that's renewable and regenerative."

The hosts discuss the limitations of individual efforts and the necessity for structural transformations to achieve substantial environmental impact.

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Cultural Influence on Climate Solutions

Dr. Johnson and the hosts explore how culture and media shape public perception of climate change. Dr. Johnson notes the scarcity of positive climate narratives in popular media, which often focus on apocalyptic scenarios instead of hopeful futures.

Amanda Doyle [22:37]: "We have very little coming out of Hollywood or music or pop culture that shows us these visions of what the future could look like."

They advocate for creating and promoting positive stories that inspire and visualize sustainable living, making climate solutions more relatable and attainable.

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Finding Your Role: The Climate Action Venn Diagram

Amanda introduces her "Climate Action Venn Diagram," a tool designed to help individuals identify their unique contributions to climate solutions by intersecting what they are good at, what needs to be done, and what brings them joy.

Amanda Doyle [35:57]: "So for me, I started Urban Ocean Lab, this policy think tank for the future of coastal cities. That's my thing because it's where my skills and interests align."

This framework encourages leveraging personal strengths and passions to engage in impactful climate actions, moving beyond generic checklists to more meaningful involvement.

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Collective Wisdom and Community Solutions

The importance of collective wisdom is a recurring theme. Dr. Johnson underscores that diverse perspectives and collaborative efforts are essential in tackling complex climate challenges.

Amanda Doyle [09:44]: "It's not unique in that way. But I think there's the word accountability that you mentioned already."

By pooling knowledge and resources, communities can implement effective and localized solutions, fostering a sense of unity and shared purpose.

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Addressing Overwhelm and Promoting Hope

The episode acknowledges the feeling of overwhelm that many experience when confronting climate change. Dr. Johnson and the hosts advocate for actionable steps that reinforce a sense of agency and purpose, mitigating feelings of helplessness.

Amanda Doyle [25:07]: "I imagine a world that's still very much familiar, but with fewer desk jobs and more people out in the world making the world that we want to see."

They emphasize that contributing to climate solutions not only benefits the planet but also enhances personal well-being by fostering community connections and meaningful engagements.

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Love as a Driving Force in Climate Action

A profound undercurrent in the discussion is the role of love in motivating climate action. Dr. Johnson relates her dedication to preserving the planet to her love for life and nature.

Amanda Doyle [46:15]: "Love is the answer in all these different ways... Community is the answer, that doing these things together is the answer."

This perspective shifts the focus from fear-driven motivation to one inspired by care and affection for the world and its inhabitants, making the endeavor both personal and deeply fulfilling.

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Conclusion: Building a Brighter Future Together

In wrapping up, the episode reinforces the central message that saving the planet is not an insurmountable task. By fostering collective action, embracing systemic changes, and nurturing a culture of love and accountability, we can create a sustainable and vibrant future.

Amanda Doyle [54:40]: "How can I be useful in this moment, not worry about being hopeful, but just focus on being useful."

The hosts encourage listeners to find their unique roles within their communities, contributing to a larger movement that transcends individual efforts and builds a resilient, interconnected world.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Ayana Johnson [06:39]: "Instead of obsessing over what if we blow this, we have to ask, what if we get it right."

• Amanda Doyle [07:01]: "If we're just talking about the doom, then everyone freaks out and shrinks back... It's not totally written yet."

• Amanda Doyle [35:57]: "So for me, I started Urban Ocean Lab, this policy think tank for the future of coastal cities. That's my thing because it's where my skills and interests align."

• Dr. Ayana Johnson [11:37]: "We have to change basically everything... How can we build the best possible future together?"

• Amanda Doyle [22:37]: "We have very little coming out of Hollywood or music or pop culture that shows us these visions of what the future could look like."

• Amanda Doyle [46:15]: "Love is the answer in all these different ways... Community is the answer, that doing these things together is the answer."

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Final Thoughts

We Can Do Hard Things delivers a powerful and hopeful message in this episode, urging listeners to reframe their approach to climate change. By embracing collective responsibility, leveraging individual strengths, and being motivated by love and community, we can navigate the challenges ahead and build a sustainable, thriving planet for future generations.

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Note: For those inspired to take action, consider exploring resources like bankforgood.org for sustainable banking options and greenportfolio.com for ethical investment opportunities.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, y'all. So I often have to make these presentations to show the kind of work that we do to partners or people outside of our business. That was always very tricky for me because I didn't know what the hell I was doing until Allison, our wonderful team member, taught me about Canva. Canva is a platform that helps you simply and easily make presentations that are beautiful and simple and easy even for someone like me without any design experience. You start with this stunning template and then you can drag and drop graphics, add eye catching charts, and incorporate animation even to really make your slides stand out. And what's even better is that if you're short on time, you can generate slides and text in seconds with a prompt, keeping you on task without juggling multiple apps. And if you're working with a team, collaboration is a breeze. You'll love the presentations you can easily design with key Canva. Your audience will too love your work with canva [e-mail] no bull is a.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

It is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can Do Hard Things Answers to Life's 20 Questions comes out on May 6th. You can pre order We Can Do Hard Things anywhere you get your books or you can go to treatmedia.com you can also join us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys, we're doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it and we can't stand your sadness. So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores. They show up for us. We're showing up for them. May 6th. If you pre ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event. Please register for the event by uploading your indie [e-mail] and just click the option that says, already pre ordered from another indie. Okay, we'll see you there.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hello. We did it.

[Glennon Doyle]

We did it.

[Abby Wambach]

We're here.

[Glennon Doyle]

How are you? It is such a treat to meet you.

[Amanda Doyle]

How's it going?

[Glennon Doyle]

Good. I'm Glennon.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm Abby.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

I'm Amanda. It's so nice to be with you. Thank you for making the time.

[Amanda Doyle]

Nice to meet you all.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

This is really an honor to be with you.

[Amanda Doyle]

This cute book you've got on your shelf.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it's so cute, bright. Also, I was looking at it this morning and it's all, like, banged up, which I feel like is only the books that I've really, like, gripped, brought into the bathtub with me, carried in my purse. That's what this book has been. It's been on many journeys.

[Amanda Doyle]

So glad you've brought that book into the bathroom. Deeply honored your first feedback to that degree that I've gotten.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

It's her most precious space is to drive.

[Amanda Doyle]

Not scrolling Instagram, but being like, climate solutions. Where are we at? Like, let's take a poop about it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And sometimes, you know, you need a warm, comforting situation when you're diving into these topics and, you know, everyone got.

[Amanda Doyle]

To get in the right flow for that.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's what we're trying to provide today is a warm, cozy.

[Amanda Doyle]

This is the best set segue of all time. Truly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you for noting that whenever anyone says the word segue, I just have to repeat that I've spent my entire life up until two years ago, calling it a segue because I had only seen it in writing.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was definitely one of those kids that read more than people talked to me. Exactly. And so I have a long list of words.

[Abby Wambach]

Same with Glennon. Every once in a while I go, wait, what'd you say? What was the other word? Sward.

[Glennon Doyle]

Lots of them. I said sward. I said, everything's are going owry.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Anyway, okay. You're in deeper than I am on this one. Yeah, I've caught up on some of those.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help create the best possible climate future. She co founded and leads Urban Ocean Lab and authored the book what if we get it? Visions of Climate Futures. She earned a BA in Environmental Science and Public Policy from Harvard university and a PhD in marine biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. Above all, Ayana is in love with climate solutions. And that is why we are in love with Ayana. Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you for having me. Such a treat to be with you.

[Glennon Doyle]

We just. Of all the people to talk to about this and this moment, we know it's you because, well, obviously we've read your book, we followed your work, and in just this kind of existential moment, which I guess the moment's been going on for a long time, but will we save the planet we live on or will we not? You're just the person to talk to because you are just always insistent upon looking beyond the doom of it all and focusing on the could be. You always say, instead of obsessing over, what if we blow this? We have to ask, what if we get it right?

[Abby Wambach]

So good. Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which really.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you for bringing that.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, it's worth thinking about at the very least.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah. And isn't it also a way of bringing people into accountability? Because if we're just talking about the doom, then everyone freaks out and shrinks back.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you can say, it's not my fault.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

It's the oil executives, it's the politicians, the PR people, it's the people destroying nature. It's big Ag. Right? You can make all these excuses why it's not your fault, and if it's all heading toward the apocalypse, then you don't have any responsibility either. And so I think asking a question like, what if we get it right? Is sort of a calling in, like, okay, like, we still get to shape the future. It's not totally written yet. And so if we let go of this binary of apocalypse or paradise and just think about, like, how can we build the best possible future together, then that's going to require all of us. And so it's like, all right, well, what's your part of this? And that's. I've been thinking about it. It actually feels like that is my mission or my life's work is to welcome more and more people into finding their roles in climate solutions. Because we really need everyone. Because we have to change basically everything.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so we have to change everything. Okay, great. So we'll start there and then we'll work backwards.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, we'll start.

[Amanda Doyle]

Just to break that down a little bit. Not everything. Like falling in love and shooting stars. And like, not everything. Everything we'll still have families and communities and so much of the sweetness. That's just who we are as humans, right? The full range of human emotions and all of that, but what kind of planet we live on and what other species we share it with. And the state of the ecosystems that we're a part of is very much up for grabs. And so when I say that we have to change everything, I mean that in a very concrete sense. Like we need to change our transportation systems and our food systems and we need to update our buildings. We need to transition from an economy and a society that's based on fossil fuels to one that's renewable and regenerative. Right. So that requires changing a lot of the underlying systems that support the way we currently live. But the good news is we have the solutions we need. It's not a mystery how to have more public transit or have electrified transit and how to insulate buildings and how to make appliances more efficient and how to conserve water and how to prepare for extreme weather. Like, we know all this stuff. How to protect and restore ecosystems. That's like a third of the solution right there. So it's not. I feel like we get so caught up in the problem that we don't talk enough about the solutions and the possibilities.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why? If we know what we need to do, why are we not doing it?

[Amanda Doyle]

We could ask that about, like, any number of things.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Climate or otherwise. Right. There's so many things we know we should do. Like I should probably exercise more regularly and eat more vegetables and like, go to bed earlier, you know? So to me, it doesn't seem unique in that way. But I think there's the word accountability that you mentioned already. Like, that's part of it. We don't have a lot of accountability when it comes to how we show up necessarily as members of society. We have it maybe in our personal relationships in our households, but as far as, like our civic accountability or our community level responsibility, I feel like that's quite lacking in a lot of places. I have to create that for myself, right? With my friends. Like, what are we doing? Who's doing what? Can we collaborate? Are there opportunities for action that I'm missing? I think a lot of people are thinking about that right now in terms of, like the political context in America too. Like, what can I do to safeguard the people in the places that I love requires doing something beyond your home. So I think the reason that we're not charging ahead with all these climate solutions we have, there's several answers I'm Sure, I'm going to miss some. But one is for so long the problem was diminished. It was that thing like, well, if it's that existential of a problem, like, clearly someone would be doing something about this. Clearly the media would be taking this more seriously. Clearly this would be like saturating the communications we receive. If our quality of life on this planet, we're all at risk. And so I think there's that cognitive dissonance between. This is a very serious problem, say the scientists, you know, as it's reported.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

It'S like scientists say those crazy scientists.

[Amanda Doyle]

Scientists are concerned, like, why are we not all concerned? Right, right. So there's this dissonance between the science which can feel distant and like the way that's communicated to us. So the media has a big role to play in people not taking this seriously enough. And then the way it's often talked about is that the solutions are the provenance of like experts, of politicians who are writing the laws, of the engineers who are creating electric cars. Right. It doesn't often feel like something that everyone can pitch into apart from in this very generic like march, protest. Donate, spread the word, Lower your personal at home carbon footprint, which are all like great things to do but are not enough to get us there. Unless we're showing up in all these other ways, like are we supporting composting in our communities? Are we getting bike lanes installed? Right. Are we getting our own homes if we own them off of fossil fuels, Are we using all of the, you know, credits under the inflation reduction act to put in solar panels and induction stoves, like while those tax credits still exist and all of these things that we have to think bigger than ourselves. And I think that's just a muscle that's atrophied this like civic engagement, this community level engagement in making the world that we want. And I guess the, the best kept secret is like, it's just a better world if we have cleaner air because we're not burning fossil fuels, cleaner water because we're not having like oil spills and fracking problems. Right. If we have healthier food, right. That's not doused in pesticides which are basically derived from fossil fuels. We have healthier soils and we have like more biodiversity because of all of this. We're protecting ecosystems that are absorbing all this carbon. We also have like just more beautiful forests and meadows to walk in and more butterflies and bees. Right. Like there's just so much upside. Anyone who's driven an electric car is like, oh, these are just better So I feel like a lot of it is a comms problem and a lot of it is a greenwashing problem. Like, for so long we've been told that the way it is is the best way, and it's just not true. When I learned the phrase, now we're cooking with gas, you guys remember?

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, yeah, now we're cooking with gas.

[Amanda Doyle]

Johnny Carson was paid to say that by a fossil fuel company to popularize that term. Like, before that, everyone was using mostly like, electric stopes. And then we're like, oh, well, the real chefs gotta cook with gas. And like, this became the whole thing, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, my God.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exxon and other Companies in the 70s, 80s, 90s, like, knew their own scientists told them exactly what was going to happen from burning fossil fuels. They explored going into renewable energy. And then they're like, nah, this is the easier way to make up quarterly earnings that are high, so we'll just stick down this road. Like, these were all deliberate choices made by a small handful of powerful white men, basically, if we're being really blunt about it. But it is now up to all of us to figure out how to turn this around. And so I think it's important to say that, like, whether you're a teacher or a nurse or a project manager or in charge of, like, procurement or booking guests on TV shows or an artist or whatever it is that you do, if there's a way that you can be part of pushing solutions forward, of helping people find their own roles, of just like, rolling up your sleeves and figuring out how you can help. I mean, don't give up, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Don't give up.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Yeah, don't give up.

[Amanda Doyle]

Don't quit on the future of life on Earth. That's like, the one option I would like to take off the table for us, right?

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

There's many reasonable responses, possibly. But not giving up on the future of the planet doesn't seem reasonable. One of the parts of your work that feels so revolutionary, and I'm so glad you just mentioned it, feels like very in the zeitgeist of this moment in terms of what we're experiencing politically and civically, is that it seems like the rise in power of Trumpism. It's really easy as a galvanizing force to be against something that is very easy. It is harder to imagine and to galvanize people towards a vision of something better. You know, it's easy to break, it's harder to make. And that is, I feel like what the moment that we're in. And what you identify so beautifully is, like, that people only run toward what they can see. We know these solutions are there, but, like, we can't see that picture. We can't see that world that is different than the world we're in. And so if we could see it, we wouldn't have to convince people to run toward it. They would just do it because they'd want that for themselves. And I think that's true of whatever's gonna get us out of MAGA is gonna be someone painting that picture of the different way and that people want to go toward that. And I think it's true of this world that we're living in with the planet. So, like, when you. With everything, you know, see that world, what are the irresistible parts of that world that you see? When we get it right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Mm. So this is the very last chapter of my book, is my answer to that question. There are 20 interviews in the book with all these different, right, from farmers and foresters to AI executives and museum curators and environmental lawyers and community organizers and indigenous leaders and youth activists and all these just freaking brilliant folks. Landscape designers, all of it. Finance folks. And the last chapter of the book, I try to put together my thoughts along with the lessons that I've learned from all of them, which I mention, not to avoid directly answering your question, but to preface my answer by saying, I think this is a time for collective wisdom. This is not a book I could have written by myself without quoting all these other people. This is a time to be pulling from all these different threads of lessons that people have learned and weaving them together. And when I tried to do that at the end of the book, the first sentence I wrote was, if we get it right, the world is a lot more green, more full of life. And that, to me, I'm like, full stop. I'm in. Because I'm just such a lover of the life on this planet. This term biophilia, which was offered up to us by the scientist E.O. wilson, really describes this innate sense of loving life, of loving nature that we all have that tends to kind of atrophy as we grow old if we're not careful to continuing to nurture that. I think about what changes in terms of what society values when we get it right. And one of the parts of this clean energy transition that we need is just like a lot of electricians installing solar panels, rewiring things, improving the grid, right? So one of the things that I imagine is that when we get it right, Electricians do very well on dating apps because everyone's like, oh, these are the people building the future.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, nice.

[Amanda Doyle]

Extremely hot.

[Glennon Doyle]

Nice.

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

In more ways than one. Yeah, sparks are flying.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

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[Unknown]

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[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

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[Unknown]

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[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

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[Unknown]

You deserve to feel great.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Book your virtual visit today at join midi. That's joinmidi.com there's something about the spring.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

I also imagine that, like, culture will have caught up with our climate reality. Right now we have just very little coming out of Hollywood or music or pop culture that shows us these visions of what the future could look like that give us something more concrete to work to toward. We have a lot of apocalyptic imagery.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Films. Right. And if that's all we have, it's sort of like, okay, well, we don't want that. Great. And that's not really enough to motivate people. And it doesn't give us a vision that we can see ourselves, like, fitting into, which I think is, you know, some of the resistance to people, to this transition from fossil fuels to clean energy is that people are worried they're going to get left behind. Their ways of life, their communities, et cetera. So the more we can create and show examples of. No, no, there's a place for everyone in this future that we're building together for you and the people, the communities that you love. I mean, I guess we could figure out, like, electric monster trucks or something like that if we had to. There's, like, ways to adapt our traditions. Right. I talk about this in the book with Paola Antonelli, who's a senior curator at the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And she talks about consumerism as, of course, part of the problem. But there are ways to scratch that itch that are not bad for the planet. Like, I remember being in college and a young professional just being so excited about clothing swaps. Like, I'm gonna find a new cardigan in this pile of stuff other people don't want anymore. Right. And it's so social and so delightful and so giggly, and you're just sharing things, and you end up with a bunch of new stuff, new to you stuff. And you've had, like, a great afternoon with your girlfriends. And so there just are so many other ways, I think, to satisfy all of these different human desires for, like, having beautiful things and sharing beautiful experiences with people that aren't about extraction and harming nature.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I imagine a world that's, like, still very much familiar, but maybe with, like, fewer desk jobs and more people, like, out in the world making the world that we want to see. I imagine, like, a more humane pace of life. I mean, this is just my personal dream. Like, I imagine a world with fewer emails like sell everybody right there.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

There's just so much money that goes into subsidizing fossil fuels, like millions of dollars a day from our government and supporting fossil fuel companies. So I imagine all the things we could do with those resources instead, isn't.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

It true that like 70% of all of the carbon, all of the environmental impact comes from those companies and we subsidize them with millions of dollars a day?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. There's a lot of ways to slice that statistic. But fossil fuel corporations in America receive subsidies from the federal government are taxpayer dollars. It's like written into these laws of Congress that are actually quite difficult to unwind. I understand. And that's money setting our futures on fire. And so I'm really grateful to young people who bring this sort of moral clarity to this conversation. Us grownups can get caught up in the nuance and create gray areas larger than they need to be when we can just say, like, it's actually wrong to set the future on fire, to leave this kind of a world to future generations. We need to figure out how to do better. We need to figure out how to make sure our taxpayer dollars are going to secure a good world for them. And so when young people stand up for themselves with this sort of irreverence, like this, are you fucking kidding me? Kind of energy, like, what are you guys deciding to do? That moral clarity of youth I think is critical to harness for this and have some sort of multi generational approach to this that includes them too.

[Abby Wambach]

One of the things I kind of want to talk about because I think as an adult, I've gone through a life, we've all gone through a life and we've become accustomed to some of our ways, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like the big blocker. For people to really accept the fact that climate solutions are really possible is that people don't want to change their everyday lives. They are comfortable in the consuming of products, they're comfortable ordering from Amazon because it makes their life more convenient. And all of the things. And I think that what the listener might want to hear is what are some things that they can be doing actively to create just not a better, necessarily future, but like to create building blocks around helping, helping teach your children. And it doesn't feel like something's being taken away from you. You know what I'm saying?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. Because it's like when you're talking and for the first time, even though I know you've said this a million times in your work But I'm just starting to understand in my body what you're saying for the first time is like, what's destroying the planet is what's destroying our lives. It's like the making efficiency and more money and more. The thing is what's destroying the planet, and it's also what's destroying our days and our connection to each other in our neighborhoods and our peace and our inability to rest. We are being mined and destroyed the same way the planet is being mined and destroyed. And so if we create this thing together, it's not like there's not a bunch of things we can't do now. It's like, no, no, no. We're saving ourselves by changing the goal.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. And I think we're also in denial about the fact that, like, life actually isn't perfect right now. I get that people fear change. I totally feel that. But I don't think it's the life. Everyone wants to feel disconnected from their neighbors, to have every little thing they want just arrive at their doorstep to never cute chats about the weather at the hardware store. I love those freaking chats. And that's actually where you can build community across political divides. We actually might need a little more small talk. That'll keep our small businesses open. That'll keep our communities thriving. Right. That'll have a lower carbon footprint. All these things can be intertwined in a really beautiful way. And one of the things that I wish people would think about more is how can we repair things? We're so into this disposable mindset that we, you know, your toaster breaks and you're just like, oh, well, throw it in the trash. Do we not have places we can take these things? Right. Part of my vision, Amanda, for the future is that we have repair shops in every community so that we're not wasting all those, like, metals and materials that were mined out of the earth to create these things that we use in our lives. I think it's such a badge of honor to have your sweaters mended and your blender resharpened re motor reworked. But, Abi, to your question, I think so much of the discussion about how to address the climate crisis has been framed as one of sacrifice. And first of all, as an athlete, you know, like, there is some sacrifice to get what you want sometimes. And, like, that's okay. Like, it's freaking worth it. Like, you don't want to lift that weight. Whatever. You will be very excited to hold that trophy.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

And so, first of all, I want to not let that be a dirty word. Like, we can work for the things that we want. But I remember when Al Gore's movie came out, An Inconvenient Truth. Whenever that was, like, early 2000s, I was just like, that's a weird title. I truly did not understand the meaning of that title until a few years ago. And I was like, oh, I get it now. Like, change. People don't want to change some of these things. It's inconvenient to think about change. I guess I would challenge us all to think about, like, what is it actually that we're holding on to? Yeah, right. Are we holding onto, like, Lunchables as the thing we don't want to give up? Right. Like, all this fossil fuel based plastic and, like, ham from a disgusting, polluting, you know, factory farm. Like, is that the thing that we, like, can't give up because it's so convenient? We know that Americans are very lonely, have fewer friends, you know, than people did generations ago. Like, our happiness levels are low. So when we fear change of our society, I also wonder if we're just not being honest with ourselves, that there is something missing now, that it's not perfect now, that if we think about turning our lawns into biodiverse gardens that welcome butterflies and grow food that we can share with our neighbors and, like, feed to our kids, would that be nicer than having to mow your lawn every weekend?

[Abby Wambach]

Totally.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, totally. And I think what you're getting at, like, Glenn and I feel like I'm feeling it too. If we aren't connected with nature and we're so disconnected in a way that we are ordering things into our house and we're abusing our choices in a way. There is this part of me that when I do think about climate change, I do have a part of me that's like, there's nothing I can do and that feels so terrible that there's almost like a frozenness to me that I don't know how I can even move. But I think, Glennon, what you're saying is, like, when we're acting irresponsibly with nature, it will affect us.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

And we don't know that that part is the thing that might be able to instigate us because we talk about this all the time on this podcast. Well, my intentions and being aligned and being in alignment with my life, it's like, wow, we really need to take it even more deeply into, like, the nature talk. We do need to Be nature more, because we are nature.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're not the only species on this planet. There's like 8 million something other species we're supposed to be sharing this planet with. And I would say we're not doing a great job of that right now. And to remember that we are part of nature instead of just living on top of it. I remember when I was a kid, this is going to be a weird anecdote, but I grew up in Brooklyn in New York City, and there was some sort of repair work going on with pipes and they were digging up the sidewalk. And I remember seeing this like rich red brown dirt under the sidewalk and just thinking like, there's dirt here. Like, it just seems like concrete and asphalt, right? Like, you forget that we're just like building on top of nature. And so this is a little bit of just like wordplay, but I try to imagine what it would be like to live within nature instead of on top of it. And as we think about things like the wildfires in la, that's what happens when you live on top of nature with this hubris that you can dominate it and like, you're not a part of these natural cycles. And it leads to something really awful, painful, devastating, lethal consequences. And so as all this burning of fossil fuels and all this destroying of nature has changed the dynamics of our planet, of our weather, of our climate, of extreme weather events, right? Not just fires, but flooding and sea level rise and hurricanes and drought and all of it, I think we need to have a bit more humility, honestly, that we can't control all of nature and that we need to also, as well, at the same time as trying to move solutions forward, adapt to the world as it's changing around us. But I also, like Abby, what you said about feeling overwhelmed and not knowing what to do, I want to address that specifically because, well, a. I guess that's like a really important first step and I think that applies to any number of challenges that we face as individuals, of course, but that this is also an opportunity to get really creative about how we want to be part of solutions. Right? If the world of solutions includes like changing politics, changing culture, changing transportation and buildings and our energy systems, right, all of this, then that means there's like infinite ways that we can show up and be part of that solution. And so one of the cornerstones of the book is this climate action Venn diagram, which is akin to like the Japanese ikigai, for finding your purpose, if people are familiar with that. And so it's just three Circles. Hilariously, I drew this before I'd seen Ikigai, which has a fourth circle, which is how can you make money doing the thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

He forgot that one.

[Amanda Doyle]

Totally was like, eh, Damn it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. But for the capitalists out there, I think that that's an important point because we're missing there's an actual opportunity that Big Oil is taking advantage of, that there is an opportunity that could be utilized in the big capitalistic world space.

[Amanda Doyle]

Totally.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Go get your subsidies.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly, totally. There's an absolute market for clean energy and all this stuff. I mean, do you know how much electricians make an hour? This is a good job, people. Being part of this energy transition is not necessarily a financial sacrifice, Right? But if we think of at least the three circles and then how to pay your bills is a fourth thing. But what are you good at? I think is where I really want people to start. Like what skills, what resources, what networks do you have to bring to the table? And that's totally different for each of us, right? If Glenn and you and I were doing the same thing to advance climate solutions, and I'm like a marine biologist, black girl from Brooklyn who's an absolute policy nerd, it would make no sense for us to do the same thing, right? So for me, I started Urban Ocean Lab, this policy think tank for the future of coastal cities. That's my thing, because it's where my skills and interests, sort of where what I have to offer can align. So that first circle is, what are you good at? And I know that that can be intimidating for people because we all think we're not. Our insecurities come to the surface in that. But your skills, your resources, your networks. And then the second circle is what is the work that needs doing? So there are hundreds, if not thousands of climate solutions that we can all be working on, and we can't do it all. And so to make it real and doable, we have to pick something. Do you want more rooftop solar in your community? Do you want community level or municipal composting? Because food waste is actually a big source of methane, which is a super potent greenhouse gas. So if we can just compost that instead of putting in the landfill, that actually really matters. Do you want to advocate for on the money side of things like helping people move their savings, their retirement, out of funds that are supporting fossil fuels? This is actually for most people, the biggest thing they can do in terms of benefit for the planet. Because if your money is in there, your retirement savings is invested in part in fossil fuels, in the continued extraction and drilling. That's super bad. Watching you two look at each other.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I'm making a note.

[Amanda Doyle]

Excited for you to report back after you talk to your accountant.

[Abby Wambach]

No, we are already.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think we already did that.

[Abby Wambach]

We already did that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. All right, well, double check again.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

How did you do that? You just look at if your retirement is there.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. So it turns out if you have like more than $50,000 saved up for your retirement, which a lot of people do by the time they're middle aged, then if that money is not explicitly not invested in fossil fuels, some part of it is. And that's doing more harm than all this going vegan and riding your bike stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

Good.

[Amanda Doyle]

That you could do in the balance.

[Glennon Doyle]

So, Amanda, we just asked for a specific meeting to go through every single thing that our money was invested in and we're just like, no, no, no, not. I had to Google a bunch. I remember Googling a bunch of them to find out they were like, secretly bad. Yeah, but you can do that.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

So it's personally divesting from.

[Amanda Doyle]

Personally divesting from fossil fuels.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Great.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was a bad day. I'm not going to lie.

[Amanda Doyle]

It was a hard day, but it's a day.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And then you're done and you don't really have to think about it all the time anymore and like, your money is no longer funding the apocalypse, which is like, great.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

You know, so please everyone who's listening, this is a very concrete administrative task that you can do that would collectively make a really significant difference. And there's resources like bank for good.org that has information on different banks that are doing right by the Planet, and greenportfolio.com on the investing side that has this curated set of resources there. So I'm not going to give you, like, the answer, but those are two resources that are a good place to start. Okay, that was sort of a tangent, but everyone go do that one thing foreign.

[Unknown]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

So what is the work that he's doing is this second circle. The first circle is what are you good at? Right? And then the third one is what brings you joy. And I kind of wish I'd named it like satisfaction or something like that. Because when people think of joy, I think they think of giggling and skipping and just glee as opposed to feeling content and like gratified that you've done your part. Because to bring it back there's like, oh, I spent a lot of time writing emails, which I wouldn't describe as joyful, but I do have Amazing collaborators. And I do feel really good about the projects that I'm a part of. And that's what keeps me going in this work. Right? Don't pick the thing that makes you miserable, even if you're good at it, because there's so many other things that need to be done. And so if everyone can just find their way to the heart of their own personal climate action, Venn diagram, I think that would make so much more of a difference than if we each do some generic checklist of, like, vote, protest, donate, spread the word, lower your carbon footprint. Even though those are completely important things to do, if we're not leveraging our unique skills and superpowers, if we're not doing it in ways that feel delightful, that inspire us to keep going and do more, then we're just not going to get where we need to go. So that's my pitch. Everyone. Bust out your colored pencils, draw your Venn diagram, and I kind of leave out the money part of it as a fourth circle, because for some people, it's not going to be your day job. Maybe it's more the way you show up in your community. Although I think we can all in our day jobs think about how to help make our companies or the ways we do business gentler on the planet, too. So we can think about it in terms of, like, our civic Venn diagram, our professional Venn diagram, and our personal one. People get stuck on the personal, right? We get so obsessed with, like, am I carrying the right water bottle and am I, like, driving the right car and am I not using Ziploc bags anymore? And they use up all their energy on that. Never get to the big pitching in to societal change and transformation piece. So don't use it all navel gazing, all your energy, right? Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, I love the way you.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Did it because it's not like, what is the thing you're most afraid of using that energy. It's like, what's the thing you love about being alive? What's the thing you love about your planet? Even your coastal work. It's not a coincidence. Your heritage and your father's island, where he's from. And like, that is born from a real deep love inside of you for the people and for their way of life and preserving that throughout the world. So it's motivated by a love of a thing instead of a fear of a thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so corny sometimes, but it's just true. Like, it just all comes back to love. And I did not expect that to Be one of the through lines of this book, talking to all of these technical experts. But it just kept coming up.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

That, like, love is the answer in all these different ways. Love of, you know, community, love of each other, love of nature, love of these traditions and, like, ways of being. What also came up a lot was like, shareholder capitalism is going to be the death of us with, like, trying to maximize quarterly earnings and, like, that being the goal. So it wasn't like, it's not like a Tufty family history kind of a book.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's connected. It's opposite.

[Amanda Doyle]

But that was very interesting. And that, like, community is the answer, that doing these things together is the answer, that being isolated, you can't solve climate change by yourself. So if we set that aside as an option, we also set aside the option of giving up on the future of life on Earth, then it just becomes this very tractable question of, okay, what can I be a part of?

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

This is not like, everyone, go start your own nonprofit. It's like, what's happening out there that, like, I can contribute to and, like, make better and help grow. And I think because of the way our society is structured right now, that's not our first thought. Our first thought is like, okay, well, what's my individual separate action as opposed to, is there an organization in my community already working on this that I could support? It's good, you know, what's going on out there because there's a lot of people doing a lot of cool stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

That certainly all of us on this call could help with and support. And I think that's a much more exciting way to approach this because it's also less lonely. And, like, the worst case scenario is you make a new friend doing a climate project in your neighborhood.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. You know, I'm listening to you thinking about how I have a little bit let myself get stuck with all of this. And I have allowed myself to go into some frozen existential dread at night thinking about what this new administration is doing. And, you know, I was thinking about last night, the idea that is constantly being thrown around now that we can just, like, throw away the planet and get another one.

[Amanda Doyle]

We cannot all move to Mars. I'm just gonna put that on the table. That's not how this is going to.

[Glennon Doyle]

But that's like an underlying pitch here. That is a pitch here. And how utterly devastating that is to consider in terms of even just being a mother on this Earth, that leaving people on this planet and how disgusting of a philosophy that is. And then While you were talking, I was just thinking about you talking about mending a sweater and how I'm railing against leaders to treating our planet that way. But in honor of my children, but my children constantly watch me throw things away that I don't need anymore. Constantly watch me donate, consume, you know what I'm saying, Though not take care. And it just makes me think of like, the way we do the small things is the way we do the big things. If we were a culture who was morally disgusted by over consumption in our homes, if we became people who didn't throw things away over and over again just because something shinier and better came around, we would also be people who would never be considering throwing away our planet in general. It is a very slippery slope. And I think I've been thinking these other people are so bad while in a microcosm living the very way. I'm despising the pitch of we all.

[Amanda Doyle]

Do have some responsibility for sure. But I do think it's important to be clear that we don't all have equal blame in this problem, right? Like there are some people who are like the literal bad guys who are like, we're just gonna set your future on fire. Fossil fuel executives are causing a lot more harm than you are. We could all be doing better, and we should be. And where that kind of leadership is lacking, it's even more important that we step up and try to shift that status quo and make them obsolete. But I don't want people to come away from this feeling primarily guilt at their personal consumption habits. But there's of course, like, I think the other part of this, like, we all know how to change that we want to, right? There's a convenience and a routine that we get into. But to be just extremely literal about the sweater example, I went to see a friend last night and I had cleaned out my closet and I was like, I don't wear these sweaters anymore. But I was like, I know if I donate them, they may not end up finding the right home. And this friend who's newly single who's starting to date, and I was like, these would be great date sweaters. Let me bring these along and see if she wants to incorporate these into her wardrobe. And she was like, oh, these are going to be absolutely a hit. And I was like, and if they're not, and like, you know, re gift them along, right? And so I love trying to find the right home for things as I no longer have a need for them. Because then you kind of like weasel your Way into all your friends lives in these tantrums too. I'm like, if you have a first kiss in this sweater, I want to.

[Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson]

Be the first to name the baby doctor Ayanna.

[Glennon Doyle]

That makes it feel irresistible. Ever since the election, we've been talking over and over again about that Tony Cade Bambera idea of resistance is not enough. Like, we have to make the revolution irresistible. And I think that a lot about your work in that context. It's not guilt exactly. That I'm feeling. It's, oh, all of this work isn't. My life is so hard and I'm so stressed and lonely and busy and I can't also save the planet. All right, people. No. It's like, my life is so stressful and busy and isolated and lonely. And so I enter in this revolution so that my life can be less stressful and lonely. And it's what's killing the planet, is what's killing our connection in our lives.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you'll sleep so much better at night if you're just trying, if you're contributing. Right. Like, no one of us can change the outcome of humanity's trajectory. But honestly, like, even when I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's really reassuring to know that I'm trying. Like, if I have on my gravestone, like, she tried, I'll count that as a win. Right? Like, she wasn't a quitter. She, like, tried to make the future a little better than it would otherwise have been. And so in one way, I want us to, like, raise the bar for ourselves. Like, don't be passive observers of the decline of our society. Right. Because also that feels like shit.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

And find a way to be a part of making things just better than they otherwise would have been beyond your household. Let's set the bar a little bit higher than that. And I think that's the part we miss. Like, that feels good to be a part of solutions. Feels good to team up with your friends and neighbors and your colleagues to do a cool project. Just like, feels good. And it can be super creative and there can be dance parties involved. I mean, the last page of my book is my anti Apocalypse mixtape. I'm like, we have to have the right soundtrack for this, you guys. Obviously, for anyone who wants to hear this, there's links on the book website, get it right, Earth, where you can go listen to the playlist on Spotify or Apple if you just need some tunes to get you pumped and to help you feel all your climate feelings. I've got you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's A good start. That is a good first start. It is about feeling good, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

I think it's about feeling useful, actually. That's specifically the word that I'm drawn to because there's so much debate about hope or fear and, like, what's the better motivator? I'm like, I don't know. I just try to be useful because I don't feel hopeful all the time, and I just want people to know that's okay. You don't have to be optimistic in order to find a way to make things better. So, yeah, there's a poem in the book by Marge Piercy that's called To Be of Use. And I come back to that one a lot because I just think, like, okay, well, how can I be useful in this moment, not worry about being hopeful, but just focus on being useful.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's a really good ending.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

We'll stop there. Thank you.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're really such a treat to talk with you. Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

All right, y'all, go listen to the playlist, feel your feelings, and then make your circles. Okay. We love you. We can do hard Things. Thank God. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand. Corner, corner. Or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by. Produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott and Bill Schultz.