Jen Hatmaker: What Are You Pretending Not to Know?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Jen Hatmaker: What Are You Pretending Not to Know?"

We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach & Amanda Doyle
Episode Date: September 23, 2025
Guest: Jen Hatmaker
Main Theme: Facing the hard truths we’re afraid to admit—about our lives, marriages, and ourselves—through Jen Hatmaker’s story of the end of her 26-year marriage, her process of awakening, and the costs and freedoms of choosing honesty over pretense.

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1. Episode Overview

This episode is a deeply personal conversation with author and podcaster Jen Hatmaker about the pivotal moment her 26-year marriage ended and the journey that followed. The Pod Squad (Glennon, Abby, Amanda) and Jen reflect on profound themes of knowing vs. pretending not to know, the invisible cost of self-betrayal, the interplay of social and religious systems, motherhood’s challenge, and how generational change shapes personal freedom.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. The Story Behind “Awake” and the Moment of Upheaval

• Jen’s Discovery (10:25): Jen recounts discovering her husband’s infidelity in real time and the immediate, life-altering rupture it caused.

  • "I hear him voice texting his girlfriend. So first of all, what the fuck? Second of all, I just sat straight up in bed ... that was it, that was the end of my life as I knew it." (Jen Hatmaker, 10:54)
  • She describes a “before and after” of her life, acknowledging how the rupture forced her out of her narrative of control.

• Moving Away from Prescriptive Storytelling (11:56): Jen explains how her new book is not about providing answers but about honestly chronicling moments, memories, and insights—admitting, “Apparently, nothing” is prescribable.

B. The Challenge and Pain of Pretending Not to Know

• Body vs. Mind Knowledge (14:22): Jen reveals that her mind was always in denial, but her body knew:

  • “When I learned how to get inside my bones and listen to the wisdom of my own body, I had to finally say, oh, shit... She’d been hitting the alarm bell for ages.”
  • She shares a poignant memory of reading Glennon’s “Untamed” and texting, “We’re in trouble.” (16:55)

• The High Cost of Self-Erasure (18:29): Jen and Glennon discuss the soul-corroding experience of denying one's truth and living in misalignment just to maintain appearances.

  “The amount of self erasure and self denial that that takes on repeat is so painful. It's so corrosive. I just felt my own soul eroding.” (Jen Hatmaker, 18:29)

• The Liberation in Truth, Even When Life is Scorched Earth (21:12): "It is better to be alone and true than married and suffering." (Jen Hatmaker)

C. Quantifying the Cost of Self-Betrayal

• Amanda frames the cost (21:24): Amanda asks how we can make visible the real cost of not knowing, given we focus so much on the visible losses of change and too little on the invisible price of self-betrayal.

• Jen’s Reflection (24:09): Jen admires those who can admit truth and act before things implode, “Most of us have to go through some flames to get there.”

• Glennon and Jen on Agency and Eviction Notices (24:32): They explore how some people change before being forced, while others wait for disaster. Glennon ties this dynamic to both relationships and the podcast’s own direction.

D. Motherhood and the Complexity of Leaving

• Abby names the motherhood bind (26:18): “We prop up and prioritize our motherhood so much that we lose ourselves in the process.”
• Jen responds (27:12): Divorce’s "shrapnel is massive"—it affects whole communities, not just partners and kids.
  • Jen notes the myth of protecting children from all pain, sharing a humorous moment with her daughter Sydney:
    “She was like, mom, listen. Hear me out. Please consider becoming a lesbian. You'd never have to put up with another man's bullshit the rest of your life.” (Jen Hatmaker, 30:08)
  • She concludes it's better for children to have divorced, healthy parents than stay in chaos.

E. Codependency, Shape-shifting, and the Price of Control

• Jen’s Admission (33:42, 34:35): Jen reflects on how she shape-shifted and codepended herself into trying to control her husband, others’ perceptions, and family systems.
  • “I had a very locked and loaded magical wand. And inside its interior was just a limitless supply of codependency.”
• Codependency as Self-Erasure (39:17): Her therapy revealed she’d been sacrificing herself for a fundamentally broken dynamic.
• Refusal to Accept What Is (40:18): Glennon summarizes, “I pretend that this thing is not what it is, and I pretend this person is not who he is ... your refusal to accept what is.”

F. Letting Go of Control—With Our Kids, With the World

• Amanda and Glennon tie control to distrust in the world (44:11): “If you just go around letting people have the consequences of their actions, it’s a free for all, because the world is inherently untrustworthy...”
• Jen connects it to faith (46:23): She notes her upbringing equated “doing it right” with avoiding suffering, but she’s had to rethink what trusting God really means.

G. Generational Change, Children, and Legacy

• Glennon on children surpassing parents (50:49): “I just think that you're ... connect all of this to what goes on in the world ... our young adults were born on a different planet ... they're just so different.”
• Jen’s pride in generational progress (54:38): Each generation “pushes the ball further down the field” (football metaphors abound) for women’s freedom and agency.

H. Admitting What We’re Pretending Not to Know

• Naming the Knowing (63:28):

  • Glennon: “Is there anything that anyone wants to admit on this podcast that they are currently pretending not to know?”
  • Amanda: “By definition, if it’s really the thing, you’re not saying it right here.”
  • Abby humorously admits: “I want to work less and play more golf.” (76:07)
  • Jen affirms the depth and seriousness even in such seemingly small confessions, drawing parallels to life-altering moments.

• Advice for Those on the Edge of Knowing (64:29): "First ... telling myself the truth ... the next thing is you've got to tell somebody who loves you ... saying it out loud to somebody takes away a little bit of the fear." (Jen Hatmaker, 66:13)

• Ownership Without a Get-Out-of-Jail Card (70:11):

  • Glennon: “I want women to be able to say, I don’t want this and not have a get out of jail free card.”
  • Jen echoes the truth: “I'd love to see that narrative change where women have the freedom to make their own next right choice without catastrophe befalling them.”

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There is no such thing as a podcast emergency.” — Jen Hatmaker (8:15)
• “I wanted the story of our marriage. I did not want our actual marriage.” — Jen Hatmaker (16:55)
• “It is better to be alone and true than married and suffering.” — Jen Hatmaker (21:12)
• “To me ... the next frontier ... usually comes when I admit that I know the thing I’m pretending not to know.” — Glennon Doyle (73:25)
• “You don't have to wait for someone else to decide for you. And I wish that you wouldn't, because that introduces a layer of trauma and pain and suffering that you could to some degree avoid.” — Jen Hatmaker (64:29)
• “I hope you remember as you are concerned with overexposure, is that the way that you handled the story ... you did with such grace and honoring of each of their stories ... you honored his part, your part, the world’s part, the beauty of the family.” — Glennon Doyle (82:37)
• On intergenerational progress: “We got what we got, and we did what we could do, they got what they got, and they're doing what they could do. And it's just like marching that ball down the field little by little.” — Amanda (54:10)
• “By showing your kids that it is better to have a broken marriage than to live as a broken woman.” — Glennon Doyle (56:13)
• Sydney’s lesbian advice: “Mom, please, just try it. You’d never have to put up with another man’s bullshit.” — Jen Hatmaker (30:08)

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4. Essential Timestamps

• 03:41 – Setting the scene: Jen drops everything to support Glennon at a moment of crisis.
• 10:25 – Jen recounts the moment her marriage ended.
• 16:55 – Jen reads “Untamed” and realizes, “We’re in trouble.”
• 18:29 – The corrosive cost of pretending not to know.
• 21:12 – The relief and pain of choosing truth.
• 24:32 – Why most people wait for the ‘eviction notice’ to change.
• 26:18 – How motherhood complicates leaving.
• 30:08 – Sydney’s advice to her mother, “Try being a lesbian.”
• 33:42 – Jen admits her deep patterns of codependency.
• 40:18 – Codependency summarized as refusing to accept what is.
• 44:11 – The tenacity of wanting to control outcomes for our loved ones.
• 50:49 – How children’s activism and honesty force us forward.
• 63:28 – What should listeners do if “the knowing” can’t be ignored any longer?
• 70:11 – Discussing the temptation to pass blame (“get out of jail free card”) and the importance of self-ownership in leaving.
• 73:25 – On leveling up: “The next frontier is admitting what you know.”
• 76:07 – Abby’s confession: “I want to work less and play more golf.”
• 82:37 – Glennon’s affirmation of Jen’s grace and integrity in storytelling.

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5. Conclusion & Takeaways

• Jen Hatmaker’s story exemplifies both the devastation and liberation that come from facing what you know in your bones, yet are desperate to deny.
• The discussion normalizes the agony of stepping out of denial, the complexity of motherhood, and how social/religious systems shape our choices.
• The episode affirms that it is possible—and essential—to choose truth, even at great cost; that admitting what you know is the path to wholeness; and that generational progress is real, even as each generation contends with its own hard things.

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Final Reflection

"Tell yourself the truth. Tell someone you trust the truth. Say it out loud. The only thing that's guaranteed by pretending is that you—your real self—goes unseen. We can do hard things. And being honest is the hardest, most freeing thing of all." — Paraphrase from the Pod Squad

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This summary delivers a full, engaging tour through a courageous, funny, and comforting episode—a resource for anyone grappling with “the knowing” in their own life.

Transcript

[Abby]

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[Amanda]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have a beautiful doozy of an episode for you today. Today our episode is with Jen Hatmaker. She's talking to us about the moment she found out that her husband of 25 years was having an affair and about how she may have always known in her bones that she needed to leave her marriage. If you have ever been afraid of admitting out loud what you know in your bones, watch this episode today or listen where you get your podcasts. Because you're going to want to hear the cost of not admitting that you know. And the magic that can come when you do admit what you know in your bones about your life. The only person who could walk us through this is Jen Hatmaker. She is a best selling author. She is an award winning podcaster. She is a fierce advocate for all of us to live in freedom and agency. Her new book, Awake is out now. It chronicles her raw, real time journey through the shocking end of her 26 year marriage. Her surprising reinvention that I like to call the genaissance. Let's go. First of all, before we start this. Oh, the trouble we've seen.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, the trials and tribulations you haven't seen.

[Amanda]

We're not even to your. We're not even to your story yet.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, no. We're not even awake yet for this first part.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, you're just getting out of the bathtub pod squad.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm going to tell you this story in full another time. What you need to know right now is you know that my deep struggle with menopause. So what happened was.

[Abby]

So we are going to get into.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It just real quick. But the short version is.

[Glennon Doyle]

The short version is we had all these very beautiful, important conversations, one of the most important being with Jen Hatmaker. And I did go to my doctor the morning before and say, I don't know what you need to do, but I'm not waiting one more fucking minute. And you better give me something to make me presentable for. For consumption publicly, because I'm a nightmare and I can't talk to people like this. And so I was prescribed something and. Jen, what was it? I have to tell you offline.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because I'll get in trouble with whoever is believers in this thing.

[Amanda]

It was cocaine, Jen.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It was cocaine. I knew it. Like, I knew it. I've heard the bad things about it. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I was so debilitated in bed, couldn't move, that Abby and Amanda had to call Jen. She was in an airplane, am I right?

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I was at the gate, on the plane, like, headphones in. I'm like, all right. Flying to la.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then what happened?

[Abby]

And then Amanda and I, because we had basically just woken up and found. Found you immovable in bed.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And so Amanda and I were looking at each other, trying to figure out what. What the fuck we were going to do.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abby]

And I'm like, I have to text Jen. I have to just call her and maybe she hasn't boarded the flight yet.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, my God.

[Abby]

And so the three of us were basically, you had. We had you on speakerphone, Jen. And Amanda and I were like. Amanda had not had her coffee yet.

[Amanda]

I can't do, like any. There is no neurons firing until the coffee hits the street. So Abby walks in. I thought I was being punked.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Sure.

[Amanda]

Abby puts a speakerphone with Jen and it's like she has 90 seconds in my face and I'm like, I haven't had Coffee. I don't even know the words you're making.

[Glennon Doyle]

You are not awake.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I can confirm that this is the level of chaos that we all experienced.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can't confirm we were real time.

[Amanda]

Processing with you, Jen. Like, if we could prior thought this way.

[Jen Hatmaker]

What I want you to envision is Jen in her seat, you know, in my seat, like 5A and I. We're at the gate. Damn it. The whole plane is. We're about. And here's Abby. And I'm like, it can't be good. It can't be good.

[Amanda]

Good morning, sunshine.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Because it's the crack of dawn for me. So for you guys, it's the middle of the night. And I'm like, oh, geez. So I am. I'm like, what do I do? And these two without the coffee are like, what? I don't. I'm like, girls.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Huh?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Girls, I have 60 seconds. I can get off this plane or not. They're going to shut the door. So in 60 seconds, I need you to make the decision. And then it was like five seconds of silence of like, we are unable. We are unable to know about what we should say to you. And I was like, I feel like I'm going to get off. So I come up to the door. They shut it. And I was like, is there. I had a problem. See, what had happened is I have a problem with my friends and can you just let me off the plane? God bless.

[Amanda]

I realized, Jen, that I might Only be an enneagram3 once I've had coffee. Because I was like, oh, I don't.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Know anything right now. I can't. I'm not in charge.

[Abby]

You were such a trooper during that moment because Amanda and I couldn't make a decision. And you were like, okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get off the plane.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's what Jen does.

[Abby]

And I just love that so much. Cause we.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Well, we need Glennon. We need her in this conversation. And I'm like, I would rather us do this conversation on satellite from the moon.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Than in person and have one of us not be in it. That's stupid.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

So.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, you also said Jen, and you've said this to me before. Just the person that you all watching think that Jen is. Is. Is actually the person that Jen is in real life, which is this person who just sort of sees all the flakes. You know, there's the snow globes. She sees all the flakes. And then real quick, without even letting things settle, she just Settles the shit. It's just like it's settled. And so she. And you just don't even know. You were waiting for the gentle settle.

[Amanda]

But it's just settled.

[Glennon Doyle]

And she says. She said this to me before, and she said it again. This time she said, glennon Doyle, there is no such thing as a podcast emergency.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I stand by it. I mean, come on, what are we doing? Are we curing cancer? What are we doing?

[Amanda]

Which is a nice segue into your story where there is such thing as an emergency.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, good job, Amanda. Wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Good. Thank you, sister.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Wow, this is impressive. Anyway, hello. And I'm so happy to see all three of your faces. And I'm so happy that you feel better. Glennon, that whatever disastrous thing that they prescribe to you, you stop taking or whatever, you can tell me offline so I don't take it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm going to. And I just need to talk to you a lot about the menopause things that'll be next. Okay, great. But now let's just all take a deep breath.

[Abby]

That stress is over. That's not happening anymore. We handled that well. Jen handled it.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Jen handled it. Jen handled us. Nope.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was helpful.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's in a rear view mirror today. We're calm. Look at us. We're delightful. Our hair is curled or whatever.

[Abby]

So, Jen, by the way, your hair is looking fire.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, well, you know, I just cut it all. I was just like, enough, Enough's enough. Enough's enough.

[Abby]

It's just as our children would say, you're eating or it's eight serving six, seven. No one can say six, seven, 41.

[Jen Hatmaker]

God, I have this language in my house too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, it's hard because there's a lot of kitchen words, but they mean really different things. Like, cooking is good, but cooked is bad.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, my God, that's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

It's hard.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Speaking of hard things.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Good, good, good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Jen Hatmaker, we're just going to jump in here, okay?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what happened was you're going to take us back to this moment. You have been married to your husband for 26 years. You've raised five children together. You both pastor a church together. You're laying next to him in bed as you have done for lo so many years. It's 2am he thinks you're asleep. What happens? Did not make it.

[Abby]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Well, I decided to just start the book out by going for the jugular. I'm like, let's just get into it. Like, let's just Start, I'll start from the er. And that was my ER moment. I had many, many, many after that, but that was the one. And I, I hear him voice texting his girlfriend. So first of all, what the fuck? Second of all, I just sat straight up in bed and I, I understand that I deal in hyperbole, but like, the truth is that was, that was the line. Like there was a before that moment and an after that moment. Like everything was, that was it, that was the end of my life as I knew it. And so we start there and then kind of parse out the, the next two years and what that looked like for me. And you guys have been around my writing for a while. So this is like a different way of telling a story that I've ever told it, which is not prescriptive. That's my preference, my preference as a writer, apparently all this time has been like, what I will do is I will take this idea, don't worry, I'm going to work it out for us. I'm going to think all the thoughts that we want to think about it. I'm going to research, I'm going to read everybody else's stuff on this. I will condense it, I will write it down for you and I will handle to you here. This is what we think of this. So just plug it into the outlet. Work here is done. So I've written in this prescriptive way for so long and I just knew that was not it. That was not it. I. What am I going to do? How, what, how to keep a marriage? Like, what, what, what do I know how to prescribe? Apparently nothing. And so I knew that this was going to be different and that I was going to write it in just vignettes in little moments and memories. And some of them were linear in that two year span, but they span 45 years of life. And so I'm kind of in and out of time zones and memories when I was like, all right, well, what built this house of cards? Let's have a look at that. Let's have a look at the systems that I, that I was plugged into. Let's have a look at patriarchy, let's have a look at purity culture. What about religious sort of shame? What about gender limitations? What about like body image? Let's. Maybe this isn't so surprising that none of this held up after all.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what? So you hear him texting his girlfriend. There's just so much, why the fuck.

[Abby]

Are you voice texting in a bed next to Somebody else.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You idiot.

[Glennon Doyle]

What a fucking idiot.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Sorry.

[Glennon Doyle]

So we're just gonna go there?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Well, that's. Yeah, we can count on Abby always to just come in with the stupid people.

[Abby]

I mean, for many reasons. Not just the voice texting, the cheating, obviously, but still, this is what I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Want to know, Jen, when you. Because this is, you know, the shock that comes. That reorders your whole life and makes you re. Examine everything you've ever done or said or learned or built. Happens for a lot of people in many different ways.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

When you are in that moment and the shocking thing happens where you hear Your husband of 25 years texting his girlfriend, was every single part of you shocked? Or was there a part of you, like an underground part of you that was like. Yeah, that's right.

[Jen Hatmaker]

If you'd asked me that question that day, I would have said 100% shock. 100%. That was absolutely never going to happen to us. How could it? We did all the things we. We did. The template, you know, we. We did the rules. I. I had said a zillion times in our marriage, a lot of shit can go sideways for us, but it will not be infidelity. That's not going to be our deal. Like, we are. We are impervious to that because we just. I don't know why. I guess we just are. And so at the time, I think I would have said that I got far enough away from the. The center of the storm and I was able to go. I had to figure out how to tap back into my body. That was my healing agent. I couldn't use my mind. My mind was an absolute poisonous loop of trauma. And so I had to use my body, which I'm not well versed at. And I've never treated my body with any respect or care. I've never considered her a true source of wisdom or leadership in my. So when I learned how to get inside my bones and listen to the wisdom of my own body, I had to finally say, oh, shit. She'd been. She'd been hitting the alarm bell for ages. In fact, Glennon, I don't know if you remember this. How could you? We can't remember everything that happens to us. Our lives are busy. But that year, 2020, and Untamed was coming out in March or whatever it was. I had an advanced copy. And so I read it in, like, January before it came out. And I do not know if you remember this, but I sent you a text. I. I got to a certain paragraph in the Book about lies that we are telling ourselves. I read it. I very quietly closed the book and I set it down and I picked up my phone and I texted you and I said, we're in trouble. We're in trouble. I'm confused. I'm scared. Nobody knows this because I don't understand it. I don't know what's going wrong. I don't know what's happening, but something is happening and I'm freaking out. And so I did though, turns out I did know. But I didn't want to know. I didn't want to know. I wanted the story of our marriage. I did not want our actual marriage. So that's a tricky place to live.

[Amanda]

We're in trouble. That's such a beautiful, honest, universal admission for so many people in so many different places. Just to say out loud we're in trouble is a big thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

What did it feel like? And I'm asking this as a person who spends much of her life pretending not to know something until it becomes impossible not to know. So I'm really not asking.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I don't know what you mean.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm with you.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I can't relate. That. That feels hard. Yeah. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can you possibly try to explain for everyone listening or watching what that might feel like to have those little bubbles come up of knowing and then to push them down? Like, how did that play out in your everyday life with your family, in your marriage?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Such torment. It's so torturous to live like that, to live misaligned. And also our bodies are telling us something because it's for our protection, for our good, for the highest iteration of who we can be or should be or deserve to be. So that is a trustworthy voice and having to tell my own wisdom over and over and over. You ha. You are wrong. There's no way that you are right. You don't know what you know. You. You're not experiencing what you're experiencing. You don't. You're not seeing what you're seeing. The amount of self erasure and self denial that that takes on repeat is so painful. It's so corrosive. I just. I felt my own soul eroding and so then I'm having to live ins world that I have co created in which there is this version out here that you see that I want. I want this version. By the way, I'm. I'm not even making it up to be fancy. I want it. I want that marriage to work. I want us to go the distance. I. I want to Rock our grandbabies on the porch. I. I want to be reconnected. I want us to be having sex again. Like I want all that, but I'm not having it. I'm over here. I'm back here living what is actual and this gap, I never want to live in it again. Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never. I just. That cost is too high. And so it's almost like I had to get on the other side of that because again, you can choose your own truth or sometimes it will choose itself for you. And that's how it was for me. And so when this was chosen for me because I didn't have the courage to face it, I didn't have the. I did not have the wisdom to face it. I had to get on the other side of it and go, oh my gosh. Wow. It is. This sounds crazy. It is actually better to live with this level of a busted up, broken marriage, family, vision for my future, all of it, everything just shattered into it. It was scorched earth. It is better to live over here, true and honest, than it was to still have possession of it and know that it was broken. It's crazy, but it is. It's better.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It is better to be alone and true than married and suffering.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Period. So. Couldn't have told me that five years ago, but it's true.

[Amanda]

I have a question about that. Do you think, is it only possible to count that cost in retrospect? Because I think we all have something that we're pretending not to. To know or that we won't let ourselves know. I don't even think we're pretending. We just won't let it come into our heads. Whether it's the marriage was over a long time ago or the kid is actually there's something wrong or I am queer or just whatever the hell it is.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yep.

[Amanda]

We won't let ourselves know it because it, the cost is so high of knowing it, like your busted up family, you're what, you can see those costs and like the spreadsheet is like very bad. But on the spreadsheet of the cost to us of not letting ourselves know, do we ever know it in the moment that it's happening? Or is it only in retrospect that you can look back and be like that that was the pain, that was the cost. That was like, how? Because I'm trying to figure out how we quantify. How do we make that real, that cost, so that we can actually do A fair analysis of costs.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Because it's just.

[Amanda]

We're only looking at the one side.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's right. It's not free. There is a cost, and you're paying it. So you're paying the entry fee to keeping the piece, whatever that means. Because I was wanting to keep peace. I wanted this the way I wanted it. And so it was me that was going to have to shapeshift to make that keep working. But to your point, it's like an invisible light item on the spreadsheet. I just was willing to pretend that that was not so costly. I look often at women who make this choice for themselves, who somehow have the fortitude and the courage to look at their life as it is, not as they want it to be as it is. And to admit. I'm gonna. I'm going to admit that this is exactly what it is without me trying to polish it up or shine it up or prop it up or fix it or whatever the hell. And then they choose the right path before the scorched earth. I didn't. I didn't. I've seen people do it. And somebody asked me recently, do you think that you have to go through, in general, any given person, this level of, like, loss and disruption and suffering to get to this place? And I'm like, I don't think you have to. I've seen people choose it, but most of us have to go through some flames to get there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I. That's just my experience. So I tip my hat to all the people who face their life as it is and decide to move accordingly, no matter what change that requires, no matter what loss is on the spreadsheet because they put their chips on them and they go, I know that this cost is more than that one.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, some people move before they get the eviction notice.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Some of us have to wait for the eviction notice. And people do ask me all the time, like, well, that's so great that you, you know, left your marriage. That was a different version of what you're describing.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But do you think you would have if Abby had never walked into your life?

[Jen Hatmaker]

I don't know. Don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, I think so. I think that moment would have come, whatever that Anais Nin thing is. There's just a moment where not blooming becomes more painful than, you know, that famous. I think that probably would have come, but who knows? And I. I feel like this is. Okay, here's the truth of what happened when. When you. We were just describing in the beginning of this episode on the plane, Jen. I had created this version of my life and this podcast and what was next that was so out of line with the way that I want to live. That had to do with a fancy studio and had to do with people flying in and had to do with big celebrities coming to the thing and this shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny thing. And it got out of control. And I actually went to the doctor's office because I could not handle looking at it unmedicated.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Oh, wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

And every bone in my body I was like, oh, this isn't right. This isn't right. Until my body was just like, oh, you're not fucking moving. Like, I knew. I just think this is so interesting because it can be about relationship or it can be about your life, but like what are you creating or inside of that? Your body is saying no, no, no, but you're saying to it, but other people can do this, but I can make this work.

[Abby]

I think that one of the things that we're also not talking about that I think is really important is the mother element to this equation. So many people find themselves in kind of marriages that, that are going through tough times, suffering. And children are such a big reason why so many of us stick around on, on behalf of, or for the sake of, of these children and not wanting the complications of, you know, split time and different households and their experience and their trauma, et cetera, et cetera. And so I just wanted to make that. I just want to say that I don't know, I don't know what the right thing to do is because there's, we prop up and prioritize our motherhood so much that we lose ourselves in the process.

[Glennon Doyle]

What do you think about that?

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

God, so true. It's just not tidy. None of it is. And any given marriage, I don't really care who you are, it's not just you and your spouse. You know, divorce breaks a million hearts. Like that was my parents son in law, that was my sibling's brother, brother in law, that was my kid's dad. Like in our friend group, that was my best friend's best friend. Like it is. The shrapnel is massive. And anyone who does not consider that I don't think is telling the truth or they're that self deluded. And so it's very, it's a very real deterrent to go, what about everybody else? And I know shit, we have been told to say that question to ourselves since we were born. What about everybody else? I mean, that was, that was Basically, my childhood mantra, what about everybody else? How can you behave so that everybody else can be happy? You know, I mean, I recognize the pitfall, but also, in a real human life, everybody else factors into your life, and these decisions matter to them, too. And so, with the idolization, frankly, of marriage in my subculture, for sure, it is a very real temptation to stay for the kids. But, I mean, I can tell you this is not interesting or innovative or new. I can only tell you that it's new to me because I am now the person who has lived this story, which is that it again, in the same way that I just said earlier, it is better to be single and free than married and miserable. Turns out it's also better for the kids to have divorced parents who are healthy and whole and no longer, like, in a toxic spiral than married parents who are creating a living nightmare inside the home. That's worse. And they. They are. Kids are resilient, you know, they really are. And I hate that. I mean, I wanted to protect all of them from everything ever, you know, that they would be that the first pack of children who get all the way through life without pain. I had a plan. I did.

[Amanda]

So close, Hat maker.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You were so close. So close. You guys, I almost got it. We almost got it. But then they also have to live a story, and that's stupid, but they do. And they have to alchemize their own pain, and they do. And they have to go through their own disappointments and their own losses, just like we did. And I hate that so bad. But here we are. I mean, however. I mean, they do recover. Sydney, as y' all know, Sydney, my oldest daughter.

[Amanda]

She'S the best, right?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Just when I think, well, this is going to shatter them, they're ruined. They're doomed. Obviously, they have no futures. I remember her coming to me, like, maybe a year after the fact, and she was like, mom, listen. Hear me out. Please consider becoming a lesbian. You can, mom, you can just try it. She's like, mom, just try it. You'd never have to put up with another man's bullshit the rest of your life. I'm like, honey, I wish that I was, and I am so sorry, but I was born straight, and I hate that. For me, born this way.

[Amanda]

Sydney, I'm sorry.

[Jen Hatmaker]

God, you have to love me this way. This is how God made me, Jen.

[Glennon Doyle]

God does not make mistakes. And it's okay for you to live your truth.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It wasn't oversight.

[Amanda]

I wouldn't. Maybe not mistake, but a little oversight. Maker.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm right there with you, girl.

[Amanda]

Right there with you.

[Glennon Doyle]

And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to we can do hard things for free. This segment is brought to you by Bumble the App committed to bringing people closer to love. We talk so much on we can do hard things about the courage it takes to be who you really are. Being messy and complicated and showing up anyway is the bravest thing we can do in our families, in our jobs, in the world, and in our relationships. It's so hard to show up as you are when you know how complicated and weird you really are. Trust me, I know. We're not supposed to be complicated. We're supposed to be small and agreeable and never, ever too much. But when we don't just allow ourselves to be as too much as we really are, we end up accepting too little. I did that for a long time in so many aspects of my life because I thought that was the way to get connection, hiding myself. It didn't, of course. When I met Abby and started showing up as my real self, the messy, real, too much me, I started to be known. And the trick is, you can't really be loved if you are not really known. Bumble is doing connection right because they've built this whole philosophy around the idea that the bravest, most magnetic thing we can do is to show up as ourselves. Quirks, weirdness, humanness, all of it. They have thoughtful photo prompts and show interests and passions, relationship goals on the profiles that lead you to actually show yourself what you really love, what you really enjoy, what you really are looking for. So folks out there can see the real you and you can see the real them. Because when we pretend, the only thing we guarantee is that we'll end up unseen. But when we're brave enough to show up as our true selves, even if it's scary, that's the first step to true connection.

[Amanda]

When you talk about shape shifting, tell me what that looked like in your everyday life, like, when you're talking about. Because I think, and to Abby's point, like, we just want to make things okay. And so, like, we see the things that are not okay and we say, no problem, no problem. My capacity is endless. I will make it okay with my magical womanly powers. What was your shape shifting? What was your efforts to make things okay? What would it actually look like?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah. Yeah. I had a very locked and loaded magical wand. And inside its interior was just a limitless supply of codependency. It just Kept renewing it. Kept renewing it never ran out. The wand. And I practiced it for so many years that it was just like some amazing.

[Amanda]

So, okay, tell the people about codependency because I, like you, was like, that's some horseshit for people who aren't independent.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then also, Jen, tell us what it, like, actual behaviors are, like if you might be a human zamboni. So many of my friends are human zambonis, where they're husband says some shit or does some shit or isn't just douche, and then they real quick just say things to. Like, there's like the nervous giggle and the cleaning up after him and the distracting.

[Jen Hatmaker]

He's just kidding.

[Glennon Doyle]

He's just kidding. The Zamboni of every man moment is a very. You might be in trouble if.

[Jen Hatmaker]

What else? That was my preferred approach for codependency because I also thought that codependency meant neediness. And that's not something I ever identified with. So I didn't understand the definition. But when I learned about it and realized that really, it's any consistent effort to control somebody else's behavior, choices, actions, the way that they're living their life and also the way anybody else is perceiving that person and then letting their actions completely affect me, completely take me. I'm like, oh, oh. Like, I have a PhD in codependency. I did not know that. And so for me, practically, this started essentially probably on our second date. Like, it goes way back. So I. It was.

[Amanda]

I.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You know how I like to be in the world. I like to be like a little. Whatever this is, you know, shiny, shiny, sparkly, like.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you're glitter.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I'm a glitter bug, as they say. And I started dating a person that was difficult. Just a difficult person. Not saying it was a bad person, just saying difficult, contentious. Not necessarily concerned with social cues or skills. Very. Could be considered rude and biting. And I didn't like that. But I was 18. I was a baby. I was a child baby. And so I learned very, very early to go behind and do the cleanup work, like, after the fact. Like, he was just tired. You know, the amount of people that I told over the course of 26 years, oh, you know he likes you. You know he does. Is a million. Like, no, he does like you. And that was my labor, my voluntary labor. And then I had a second layer of my labor, which was then to go to him privately and just be a real bitch, like, scold him. And adult. Adult men love to be scolded.

[Glennon Doyle]

They Do.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I've heard that that is great for connectivity, for intimacy. That is a real grease in the machine of marriage.

[Amanda]

It's also a turn on to be a woman. Turn on for you to be treating your husband as a child.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I, I always wanted to parent a spouse. That is my dream. I would like to be your mother and your sexual partner because of that. Just is that will this work or no? You know, so that, as you can well imagine, created so much resentment in our marriage. And I get to own that, by the way. I. I get to raise my little hand and go, that was my pattern. And I would have hated being on the receiving end of that. Not, not once, not twice, but for two decades. So that me trying to micromanage his behavior and then ex and then everybody else's experience of him. And I did a real razzle dazzle for that. You know, I'm good at it. So I could come behind and razzle dazzle it so I could talk people into to not experiencing what they were experiencing with him.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

But it didn't work. It turns out people experience what they experience. And so that was a real painful part of my recovery process because I took that right into therapy. And as you know, what I wanted, what I paid my therapist to do was tell me, he's terrible, he ruined your life, he broke up your family, and that's sad for you, and let's talk about it more. But instead, she was like, let's examine your deal. Like, let's examine your patterns. Let's talk about your codependent behaviors. Let's talk about your avoidant attachment style. And I just. First of all, that is so. I didn't pay her to be that mean to me.

[Amanda]

But that is enough people being mean to you.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I'm like, what do you think we're doing here, lady? Like, I am paying for one hour for me for you to feel sorry for me. That is what we are doing here. So then I was like, oh, my gosh, guess what? I'm codependent with my kids. Guess what? I'm also codependent with some of my adult friendships. It just. That was my problem. That's mine. So I could either address it or I could walk that into. Every future relationship I'm ever going to.

[Glennon Doyle]

Have is codependent with kids. Because basically I'm reading your version of codependency right now. As codependency is. I pretend that this thing is not what it is, and I pretend this person is not who he is because you are constantly trying to change him. The scolding is changing him and the zamboniing is changing other people's experience of him. So you're just refusal to accept what is.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's exactly it. That is exactly it. Can you imagine how that could not result in a beautiful, connected marriage? Like, that was a real faulty brick in the wall. And that is such a relational killer. And so this is part of my lifelong problem because I have always been overly attached to outcomes, to optics. I very much want you to like me. I very much want you to like my person. I want you to like my husband. I want you to like my kids. I want you to like my family. I don't want you to think shitty thoughts about one of these people that are in my crew. Even if they deserve it. Like, even if they behaved in such a way to deserve it. I don't want that. So how. How can I do that? I've done that with my children. Like, their choices, I don't want. And so how can I fix that? You know, I don't want that. How can I make that different than it is? Like, I want you to do a different thing than what you've done. And so, um, so that has looked like lecturing because now they're young adults. Like, they don't live here. So I, My. My control mechanisms have had to shape shift. But I, I am learning to release those chains. I'm. I am learning to sort of. It's not like I ever had control. The whole thing's a lie. Like, it. It's a whole. It's a lie. It's not like it worked. It's not as if any of my complicated behind the scenes labor made a hill of beans of difference. It is, it does not only does it not work, it makes everything worse. It's not neutral. And so I am learning to let people live their lives, which is hard. We are. This is our work. We're good at it. We're good at living lives. And I have so many ideas. I have so many ideas for, like, other people and how they could do it better. So that's hard, but I think I'm doing better. Not great. Like, I've probably got like a D plus. That's where I feel.

[Abby]

This is where I think that. I feel very deeply that it could be very complicated for you and somebody like Lennon, who has also been working on stuff like this for a long time.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Because your ideas are oftentimes actually, in fact, better than the ones that, that the people that you live with might Have.

[Jen Hatmaker]

But the problem is, is I like that.

[Abby]

And this is something that I try to, like, talk to Glennon about, is like, I need to actually know what I want and do what I want and make the mistakes that I need to make in order to become the person that I need to become, not the person that you think that I should become. Right. Like, it has to be mine and it has to be your children and it has to be our kids. I, you know. And by the way, you're doing wonderful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, thanks. But it's so true. It is. It is a. It is a. It's a defense mechanism. It is a. I. I'll never forget when I was most recently diagnosed with a new flavor of eating disorder and I expressed it to Tish. She says to me, oh, yeah, mom, well, it did. You know, it does. It is interesting to think about how interested in other people's problems a smart person must be to not notice that they're anorexic for 20 years.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, wow. Is it possible that my other. My. All of my good ideas for other people are precluding me from having any good ideas for myself?

[Abby]

Damn.

[Glennon Doyle]

For my own life?

[Abby]

That's good.

[Amanda]

And it's also like a trust.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't love that, Jen.

[Amanda]

I think it boils down to a tolerance of the world, right? Because I get that, like, it's about perception at a surface level. It's about, I want you to perceive me and my people as good. I want you to see how hard I've worked at life and be like, it's good. Look at it. But even at a deeper level, it's. I don't want. What are the natural consequences of everyone's choices because I don't trust this world that it's going to work out. Right. And if you just go around letting people have the consequences of their actions, it's a free for all. Because the world is inherently untrustworthy and everything's going to go to shit.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It is so real. I believe in that altruistic undercurrent, which is that we don't really want our people to suffer. But what that means is then I guess we don't want them to live a life. And so there is no middle. There's no middle there of like, a little bit of control, you know, I will control you a little. And then the other part is you can live your own life. That just isn't real. It's like this. It's this fictional middle ground, and the only thing that actually lives there is resentment. And disconnection. And so it is a real gauntlet to release the people that we love into their own choices and into their own lives.

[Abby]

What right do we actually have?

[Glennon Doyle]

No, I know it's interesting for two people. I mean, I'm thinking of you and me, Jen, and how we really feel like there's a God. Like, right, we profess to truly believe that there is a loving God, and yet we just think we might be a little bit more loving goddesses than God. Because if for people who say they believe in God, why are we constantly not letting God do anything so good? Why are we stepping in all the time?

[Jen Hatmaker]

It's just like we volunteered ourselves as their assistant, like their Earthside assistant, and I'd hire us. So I know the trusting of the God thing is really, really tricky in this world because then you have to figure out, okay, well, what does that mean? Because I grew up in an ethos, a spiritual ethos that said, said, do these certain things, put these ingredients into the soup pot and give it a good stir, and you're going to have some guaranteed outcomes that's going to protect you, that is going to keep you safe, that is going to keep you in God's good favor. Because that's back when I thought I had to earn God's favor, which said, by the way, if you can earn it, you can lose it. So that's a really hard way to live. And. And thus felt like God could potentially dole out happiness, right? If we were doing the whole thing, right? Like, if we were hitting our marks and obedient and faithful and, you know, whatever all the things were, then if he chose to, he could give us happiness. And also, I guess our kids wouldn't get sick and maybe, like, our country wouldn't get bombed, right? And, like, our freedoms would be protected, our democracy will stand, you know, all the things that. Those will be our rewards for all of our, like, good godly behavior. Because so I've had to, of course, like, deeply, like, examine my theology around, what does God's in control mean? What does that mean? Is he only in control? Are they only in control when I'm getting what I want? Are they only in control when my family is spared the suffering? Because then, because that I went through seasons where we were kind of skip, skip, skipping along, you know, and we kind of had everything that anybody could ever really want, a sense of security and safety. But if that is your theology, then you do have to look around the world and go, I guess he hates everyone in Gaza. I Guess those are his enemies because he's spared them nothing, you know? And so those are deep theological questions that I'm still. I'm parsing out here in the middle of life. What. Who is God? What is good? What is good about him? What. What is good about divinity? What. How does that look at a human life? I don't have any answers. I'm just, like, putting it on the pod. Like, do you guys know? I'm.

[Glennon Doyle]

I do. I'm not going to tell you right now, but I definitely do know.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And tell me later about the medicine and the God thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you about the God thing later. I don't want to, like, blow anyone's mind right now with too much information. I just. Just want to take one moment to say that I just think that you're. I just love that you connect all of this to what goes on in the world. And when you recently. I mean, when you recently came out so hard and for a Free Palestine online, I just thought. I mean, that is not in your. You've gone through so much with the evangelical reaction to your boldness and freedom, and that was a moment. Where are your kids? My kids are always doing this, really, while I'm thinking I'm controlling them. They are pushing me past what I can ever see or understand in a way that reminds me very much of the Kahlil Gibran poem about, like, your children are not even your children. Their life longing for itself. Like, you can't even go where they are, not even in your dreams. And while we think we are protecting them and manipulating them, that is so hilarious, because they are so far beyond us and all we can do is barely keep up. And genuinely, Chase has just led me, him, and his friends in all of finally looking at the world in any. With any sort of clarity. And that has affected so deeply my way of looking at Palestine. And is Sydney, basically, my question, is Sidney fucking you up? Because Chase is really fucking me up.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It's. It's like our children, our young adults were born on a different planet. Do you know what I mean?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Like, the amount of big conversations that here we are on our pod, little podcasts, talking about our big shovels that we're, like, digging out of these holes. We've. They don't even know about it. They're like, what are you doing? Like, Sydney comes over and she's like, you're eating a salad. Is that because of diet culture? I'm like, oh, I guess. I mean, I guess it is to Be honest. You know, like, they're just so different. They are so active in the world. They're so unafraid of systems and the patriarchy. And they are so uninterested in what anyone has to say about their bodies, about their sexuality, about the way that they move on the earth. I. This is me just looking at them all the time. Yeah, like, look at you guys go. Like, look at you lead. I feel so hopeful that they get the baton next. Like, how quickly can we get it in their hands? Like, how quickly can we put these sort of thinkers and activists and just compassionate souls who are able to live a little bit more fully in their bodies than we ever were allowed? And we can say that we weren't handed the freedom. We weren't. We weren't. We can take our ownership for where we were complicit and the systems we willingly, you know, plugged into, how I contributed to those. Own, own, own, own, own. At the same time, we can also say we were not handed these keys to these locks. We weren't. We had to like, hulk open the bars, our own selves together, collectively and see if we could like, squeeze through the bars to freedom. And so our kids, they didn't get caged in the same way. And it's a wonder to watch. And I feel really hopeful that they are really going to run where we just kind of had to like army crawl our way, like through. But they're a pretty kick ass, these kids. And also, they're not putting up with our stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, they're not. They're not. And they look at you, they see me like in a way that I'm not comfortable with. And. But every time they light me up, I think, yes, you're right, you should light me up. But also, please know that I gave you the match that you are using to light me up. I raised you.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's a fire.

[Glennon Doyle]

I raised that fire. I raised you to be free enough to confront me the way you do. That little match you have. I paid for it.

[Jen Hatmaker]

God light you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Light me up. But I gave it to you.

[Abby]

None of us were given a match. None of us real. None of us. They hid the fucking matchbook. They hid all the lighters. If we confronted any of our parents, they would literally laugh in our face.

[Amanda]

But that's not true, y'.

[Glennon Doyle]

All.

[Amanda]

We're all just moving the ball down the field.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You're right.

[Amanda]

Like, you think that they can do something because you taught them, but we're here being as little free as we are in spite of. It's all, like, because of. In spite of. In spite of. Because of. So, yeah, I think it's like, we got what we got, and we did what we could do, they got what they got, and they're doing what they could do. And it's just like marching that ball down the field little by little.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And our moms did, too. Our mom went further than their moms.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Amanda]

They didn't have bank accounts.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That's right. My mom, you guys, my mom's high school. My mother, one generation north of me. My mom's high school was desegregated her sophomore year. That's not that long ago. So they went as far as they could go. And I think we're doing the same. I. I will say I am proud of our generation. I am. We've. We are the tip of the spear in terms of what has been possible for women for a variety of factors. There's a lot of reasons for that, that we got to lead in the age of the Internet, which meant our influence and ideas and the capacity for gathering was just exponentially more expansive than it was before us. We didn't do that. We didn't create the Internet. Al Gore did that. Right? That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

We get to live off the algorithms. The algorithms.

[Jen Hatmaker]

See? Oh, Glennon, that was so good.

[Glennon Doyle]

How come nobody says that?

[Jen Hatmaker]

I honestly cannot believe nobody says that.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so funny. Abby says it's not funny. I think it's very funny that Al Gore invented that Al Gore invented the Internet.

[Abby]

He didn't.

[Glennon Doyle]

Also that there are algorithms.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I like it. I like it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Jen, I have to believe that it's that you have pushed the ball further down. What's it called? The court?

[Abby]

The field.

[Amanda]

I think we're doing a football thing here, guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. By showing your kids that it is better to have a broken marriage than to live as a broken woman.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I hope so.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that's gotta be.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because. Because staying in a broken marriage to set an example for your kids, I mean, it's sort of just like eating a salad because of diet culture.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Right, Right. It is. It is. And that feels really clear to me in hindsight. It's so funny because one of my sons read Awake, like, two weeks ago.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You know, and that's always. You just kind of chew your fingernails off, you know, when the kids are up in your shit that you've written.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You know, to some degree, I just want them out of my world. Like, just go be wherever you are in your like the, the things that I'm not on, whatever the things are. Like I don't want to be on your Snapchats. I don't want to, I don't want to see you being real. So no, thank you. But it was so funny because he came to me and he said, mom, it's so interesting to read your story through the divorce and like the, the recovery process. Because he said, I forgot like all along that you were a person in this story. He said, you just, you kept our ship so steady and you, you were our like North Star so hard. I forgot you were sad. And I was like, wow. I was shocked to hear that. I felt like I was like a disastrous weepy panic attack having mess in this home for a year. But it is interesting that our kids do get to see what I hope they see is the best possible iteration of ourselves at any given time. And that iteration is better than the previous one in a fake environment, even if it's hard.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Jen, what is your advice? Let's say there's someone listening right now who the knowing is just like, oh, now surfacing to the point where they cannot not know. Let's say that person is in a marriage and they would not like to wait for the eviction notice. Jen, what do or they just got it.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

You had a clear. I mean, I watched you like the algorithm. I also coined the genaissance and I just don't get enough credit for it.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You do if I ever say it. I do cite you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you, Jen.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You're welcome.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it was a sight to behold. It was beautiful and messy and strong. What do people do first? What does a woman do first? When the whole thing is built and she knows to keep herself, she has to step outside of the thing that is built. Like, logistically, what does she do?

[Jen Hatmaker]

Thinking of her puts like a few feeling in my stomach. I know that feeling. And so I want to first say to the woman who has that knowing and that feeling in her body but has not been given an eviction notice, you don't have to wait for it. And I wish that you wouldn't because that introduces a layer of trauma and pain and suffering that you could to some degree avoid. Now, it's not that change is not disruptive and there is not loss inside of it sat grief. I'm not suggesting there is a clean way through change that leaves us with only good feelings. But when you wait for someone else to decide for you, then you forfeit yet another layer of your own agency. And it's so devastating. And so you don't have to wait that long. So practically, I can only do this in hindsight because I didn't do it in real time. So in Hindsight, I mean, I did it after somebody else chose it for me. So what I'm saying is if you are staring, if there is the this version out here, but you're back here and you know what's true and this gap has broken your heart and you can't tolerate it anymore. I think this is what would have had to happen in my life. If this is a little bit prescriptive, I don't know how to make it different. But I think the first thing, and maybe the hardest thing would have been telling myself the truth. I just couldn't do it. I did not want to tell my own brain what I knew to be true.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I just could not even invisibly admit that into my own thoughts. So if you are willing to just say very quietly, very privately to yourself in the mirror, here's what's true about my life, here's what's not working and here's what I want. That is such a humongous step. I. I didn't really even do that. And so then I think the next thing, you guys, I want you to weigh in on this. I think the next thing is you've got to tell somebody who loves you. Is that the next thing?

[Glennon Doyle]

I think so.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Like who loves you? Who loves you, who knows you, who knows whatever it is scenario that you're in or talking about, who cares about your future, who cares about your well being. Saying it out loud to somebody takes away a little bit of the fear and a little bit of its power. Is that right? Is that what comes next?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, there's something about speaking it, you know, it with yourself. I've had moments like this where I actually am sitting looking in a mirror. Like I'm thinking of moments like that where I tell myself something. But the speaking it to someone else, it's not just about the love that comes back. It's that we know world worlds are built on words. It's like let there be, let there be light, let there be freedom, let there be love. When you speak a word that becomes a brick that then shows you the like next right thing. When I finally say something that is true about my life to Abby or to Amanda, it's amazing what unfolds next. I don't know. It's like magic.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But the words do sometimes need to.

[Amanda]

Come first and that you don't die when you do don't die. Like I think that's a real thing. We think there's certain things you can never come back from, you can never say. And your Life will still be the same. When you say something out loud that is true about your life, the only thing that changes is that you have admitted what's true about your life. Like, it doesn't. Suddenly there's something really so powerful about it because you notice, like, I am still me. I still have the agency to choose whether I stay in this situation or leave this situation. But I can both exist and name this truth, which I don't think we think that we can exist if we name the truth that suddenly something's going to change.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I also wonder, is there something, Jen, about. Because I had sort of not at all the same, but I was, like, abandoned in my marriage and it was over in seven seconds. And it was like, well, that was his choice, clearly.

[Jen Hatmaker]

And.

[Amanda]

And there's something in it that is so, so traumatic and awful and never anything as bad as that. And also, as a woman, there's something in it that is.

[Jen Hatmaker]

A.

[Amanda]

Relief is the wrong word. There is some kind of culpability that you avoid when someone has fucked everything up and made it irretrievably gone.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

That it is not your fault and you didn't choose it and you never would. And I seriously think that there's something about in, especially for women, the naming of the thing. The gap between the naming of the thing and the actually saying that's not good enough for me. Has to do with accepting the culpability for the outcome of what you need.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I used to, every time people talk to me about my divorce, I would find myself bringing up the infidelity, Craig's infidelity. Every time they would say it. And then I would hear myself go, huh? And the cheating, and the cheating, and the cheating. And when I started to notice that, I stopped that. Because what I was doing was saying to the world, it's not my fault. It's not my fault. It's okay for you to accept that I wanted something different because I had to get out of jail free card, but I don't want that for women. I want women to be able to say, I don't want this and not have a get out of jail free card. And just the fact that they say I don't want this is their get out of jail free card.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yes, that is it. God, you guys should just have a podcast. This is so good. I'm like, look, I've got my pen. I'm like, so true. Don't wait for your card.

[Amanda]

I love thing.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Like, how do you listen? You are talking to somebody who got that card. And I just. I handed it out to everybody for like a year. Like, I am innocent, right? And I. This was done to me. And the. The villain victim thing was so, so delightful for a minute. And everybody was willing to agree. They were like, yes, that's the story, and we'll hand it to you. And you get it. You get absolution, you know? And so I think that that is. It's a pass. But the other truth is there are plenty of women sitting in the pocket of their story right now in which it is not serving them at all. It is causing them harm, pain, loneliness, suffering. They have outgrown the container. There is some life beyond it that is going to be vibrant and full of flourishing. And they get to pick, too. They get to choose it. And so I glennon the same thing for me. Somebody, an interview, an interviewer asked me recently, would you have stayed if you hadn't found out? I'm like, damn it, I think I might have. I think I might have. And that version of me is one I am challenging right now. That was just five years ago me. That wasn't that long ago me. But I'm trying to be honest, and I think I would have. I was fighting like hell for my marriage that day that I found out we were in. I was. I was pulling out every stop that there was, every stop that there was. And I don't think I would have, number one, admitted defeat. Number two, admitted how sad and lonely I was. And so I would love to see that narrative change where women have the freedom to make their own next right choice without catastrophe befalling them. I'd love that for us.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. I'd love for us, too. What? Just to wrap up, I want to just preface this by saying I don't have an answer to this, so if nobody else does, it's completely fine. I mean, I do. I just don't want to say it. Is there anything that anyone wants to admit on this podcast that they are currently pretending not to know? Because to me, and I'm not trying to overgeneralize, I'm just saying my next life, or however this life works, where you're constantly kind of, if it's a video game, you're leveling up, or whatever the next frontier is, usually comes when I admit that I know the thing I'm pretending to not to know, that that's sort of like the jumping off point to the next thing. And if you don't, you just kind of hover in this weird purgatory place. Is There anything that anyone knows or is pretending not to know that they can think of that they want to say. If not, it's okay. It's okay for the pod squad to just think about it.

[Amanda]

I think if I know what my thing is, but I think by definition, if it's really the thing, you're not saying it right here.

[Glennon Doyle]

You only something come up.

[Amanda]

Oh, for sure. But you only say the thing. It's like the before and after story. Like you can only say in a public place if you've already decided. You've already decided to act on the thing. That kind of private sharing of. This is my thing that I am running from, that I am desperately trying to make. Not my thing is something that you share with, like yourself and then a person. And then you decide if you. After you share it, if you can still exist. And then if you do, you think, okay, well, if I can exist with that being said, can I exist with that being said to the person who needs to hear it the most? And then if I can exist that way, can I actually. And I'm still breathing, can I actually act on that thing? And then am I still alive now? Like, there's so. I think. I think if it's really the thing, no one's saying it here.

[Abby]

I have a thing, but it's silly and fun and not too deep.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I love it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Then it's unbathed.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I want to hear, go for it.

[Abby]

It's. It's this.

[Jen Hatmaker]

It's.

[Abby]

I want to work less and play more golf.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I don't actually think that's small. I don't think that's.

[Abby]

I really want to. I really want to work a lot less.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I do not think you are saying something silly.

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Abby]

I've. I've somehow gotten myself into two podcasts, a speaking career, an investor in all these companies. I sit on two boards and, like, I don't want to. Yeah, all of it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I hear that.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I actually really honor that. I mean, to me, that goes back to something Glennon said earlier about staring down this new shiny version of the show and then collapsing her body, being like, we don't want this. So you either listen or not, but we're going down in flames if you choose not to. I think the work thing, who. Who thought it was a good idea to be this visible to the world? Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think we're built for this. I don't think this is a way that people ever will flourish. I. This is too much attention. It Is like, that's too many people listening to us. What do we know? And also very little when they like us so much, but they also hate us that much, and that is a lot to hold. And then we look at the calendar, at how much we've just given our days and minutes and hours to it all. I don't think what you're saying is silly at all, Abby. And I feel like that is something in my knowing, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me too.

[Amanda]

Is it changing? Because I'm thinking about you. I was thinking about you this morning, and you're awake is so beautiful. And it's going to help so many people, and it's such a gift. And you are putting awake out into the world in this moment and touring and opening up a lot of your life that has happened to you at a moment in which a lot of your new life is happening in your real life. Like you're about to become a grandmother. First of all, we need to know what your grandmother name is, because we know you picked one. Second of all, how does that feel in this moment? And if your gift is like, coming back into your body, your gift of this disassociation and having to reassemble yourself, how are you dealing with that in your body in this moment?

[Jen Hatmaker]

I'm anxious. And when I look at my calendar for more than the day that I am in, I have a little internal meltdown. And it's so strange because I have, like. Like, you guys, a pretty public life, like life. But most of that public life I can do for my house. And so when my public life requires me to be on all these airplanes and in all these places and on all these. And they're back to back and back to back to back, I feel anxious. And that's just a fact. Everybody around me knows it. They're all just like, do you think you can get through two months? And also not just the pace of it and the exposure and the socialization of it all, which is just so many people, so many words, so much, so many bodies around me. But this is a tender story. Like, it's. It's a lot to talk about. And so I feel absolutely nervous about that. I feel like I might have overexposed myself just a hair, but it's too late. So the time for that was last year. Last year was the time for that. Because I just don't know. Like, I've said things in here, in. In the book that I just have never said, and so I just don't know about that. Anyway, I'm doing Great. So, yeah, Grandma name. Back to your other question is. I just don't know. And the problem is, is that I told my son, I'm gonna have, like. I wanna. I'm not gonna be called grandma. You know, I want to name.

[Amanda]

That's for old people.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Excuse me. And he's like, you're not going to name yourself. We're going to let our son name you. And I was like, son, listen, I love you. I do. You have. This is not about you. You have no part in this. Like, bring me this grandson. This is. But this is not about you at all. You are not even in the equation. So just go live your life. Anyway, I don't know. And I'm still workshopping it, and I just would love your input. So if you come up with one, I would like to hear it. Everything sounds crazy to me because I. How could I be a grandma? I was just born, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. So how could you. A former baby.

[Jen Hatmaker]

A former baby, be a grandmother? Thank you for understanding.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow. Yeah, I do understand.

[Abby]

G. Well, we're gonna think of Nina. Nana. Nana.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda]

She's doing it now.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're gonna think of names and then text them to you.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Okay, good, good.

[Glennon Doyle]

A couple things. The book is so beautiful, and what I would like for you to remember as you are concerned with overexposure, is that the way that you handled the story. Not just the story, but every character in the story who are real people in your real life, you did with. Okay, okay. You did with such grace and honoring of each of their stories, because we know that your husband was who he was on your second date when you noticed he was difficult. I know that Craig was who he was when he told me he didn't want to get married. And I was like, that sounds like a personal problem that maybe you want to get over quick since the church is booked. So you honored that in your book. You honored his part, your part, the world's part, the beauty of the family. I feel like the family that's depicted in this book is so beautiful. Yes.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

So beautiful, Jen. And personally, I love you. You are a person who maybe I don't talk to for five years, and then when the shit hits the fan for me, you're one of the first person who shows up in my text with three paragraphs that settle the snow globe so quickly. And I believe in you and I love you, and you're gonna make it through these two months.

[Amanda]

And this book was meant to be.

[Glennon Doyle]

In the world, and it's gonna help Somebody.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Thank you.

[Abby]

Jen Hatmacher is the. The snow globe. The French press for the snow globe.

[Glennon Doyle]

Now we're combining metaphors, which we do like to do.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Also.

[Glennon Doyle]

You don't owe people's.

[Amanda]

Jen, you wrote what you wrote.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I did.

[Amanda]

It's a beautiful book. People can read your book, and also they want to ask you some stuff that you don't want to talk about.

[Glennon Doyle]

You don't know them.

[Amanda]

Say whatever you want to say.

[Jen Hatmaker]

You already wrote it, Amanda. You're right, I did. And I thank you so much for that, like, kindness. If anything kept me awake the last two nights or the last two years over the process of writing this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Two nights plus two years.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Two nights. And then also the two years prior to those two nights, it was. I kept asking myself a question because in a story like this, there's a lot I left out.

[Amanda]

Restraint.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Juicy. Juicy. Could have sold. Could have been splashy. Left all that out. Of course, I kept asking myself the whole time, am I going to be proud of this in five years? Am I going to be proud of this book? Am I going to be proud of this paragraph? Am I going to be proud of this sentence in five years? And I kept checking in with five year ahead of Mimi, like, what. What will you be thinking of this? And that helped because this is the family that I live in. Like, this is my actual life. This is my real life, the one with the real kids and the real ex husband. We've got real grandbabies coming. We have graduations, weddings. We have a real life over here. And so I could not torpedo that life so completely that what I would have is a book in 2025 that'll come and go like books do, and a whole life where I am now left living in the rubble that I created. And so I didn't want that. I didn't want that. And so you saying that, Glennon, you can never know that you put your finger on the exact bruise that I have. That I'm. That I. My biggest anxiety about this is not, what will you think of me? What I told you we didn't have sex for two years. What are people gonna freak out about that? Like, all the things. All the stuff that I included, that was like. But it is. That is that thing. Was I. Was I generous? Was I gracious? Was I compassionate? Did I overexpose my family? And so anyway, just that's. You could not have said one nicer thing to me than you just said, so. Thank you. And also, I should just bring Amanda with me to be like she said what she said. Yeah, she's not answering that question.

[Amanda]

Jen will be taking no further questions.

[Jen Hatmaker]

While the read it yourself.

[Abby]

That's right. On my tour.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just close your eyes. Just close your eyes. The signal will be Jen is awake or Jen is asleep and taking no further questions.

[Jen Hatmaker]

I like both energies.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

We love you. I'm here on Text Jen Hatmaker. When you're on tour. Whenever you need me, I am right here.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

Except if you have an airplane issue, don't text her.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Jen Hatmaker]

That would go to Abby, I assume.

[Amanda]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jen Hatmaker]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I know which one of you to pick for what, so. All right, girls.

[Abby]

We love you, Jen. Thank you so much.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you. We can do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.