Jen Hatmaker: What Are You Pretending Not to Know? - We Can Do Hard Things

Transcript

Abby (0:00)

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Amanda (1:03)

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Glennon Doyle (1:43)

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have a beautiful doozy of an episode for you today. Today our episode is with Jen Hatmaker. She's talking to us about the moment she found out that her husband of 25 years was having an affair and about how she may have always known in her bones that she needed to leave her marriage. If you have ever been afraid of admitting out loud what you know in your bones, watch this episode today or listen where you get your podcasts. Because you're going to want to hear the cost of not admitting that you know. And the magic that can come when you do admit what you know in your bones about your life. The only person who could walk us through this is Jen Hatmaker. She is a best selling author. She is an award winning podcaster. She is a fierce advocate for all of us to live in freedom and agency. Her new book, Awake is out now. It chronicles her raw, real time journey through the shocking end of her 26 year marriage. Her surprising reinvention that I like to call the genaissance. Let's go. First of all, before we start this. Oh, the trouble we've seen.

Jen Hatmaker (3:13)

Oh, the trials and tribulations you haven't seen.

Amanda (3:16)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Jen Hatmaker: What Are You Pretending Not to Know?"

We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach & Amanda Doyle
Episode Date: September 23, 2025
Guest: Jen Hatmaker
Main Theme: Facing the hard truths we’re afraid to admit—about our lives, marriages, and ourselves—through Jen Hatmaker’s story of the end of her 26-year marriage, her process of awakening, and the costs and freedoms of choosing honesty over pretense.

1. Episode Overview

This episode is a deeply personal conversation with author and podcaster Jen Hatmaker about the pivotal moment her 26-year marriage ended and the journey that followed. The Pod Squad (Glennon, Abby, Amanda) and Jen reflect on profound themes of knowing vs. pretending not to know, the invisible cost of self-betrayal, the interplay of social and religious systems, motherhood’s challenge, and how generational change shapes personal freedom.

2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. The Story Behind “Awake” and the Moment of Upheaval

Jen’s Discovery (10:25): Jen recounts discovering her husband’s infidelity in real time and the immediate, life-altering rupture it caused.
- "I hear him voice texting his girlfriend. So first of all, what the fuck? Second of all, I just sat straight up in bed ... that was it, that was the end of my life as I knew it." (Jen Hatmaker, 10:54)
- She describes a “before and after” of her life, acknowledging how the rupture forced her out of her narrative of control.
Moving Away from Prescriptive Storytelling (11:56): Jen explains how her new book is not about providing answers but about honestly chronicling moments, memories, and insights—admitting, “Apparently, nothing” is prescribable.

B. The Challenge and Pain of Pretending Not to Know

Body vs. Mind Knowledge (14:22): Jen reveals that her mind was always in denial, but her body knew:
- “When I learned how to get inside my bones and listen to the wisdom of my own body, I had to finally say, oh, shit... She’d been hitting the alarm bell for ages.”
- She shares a poignant memory of reading Glennon’s “Untamed” and texting, “We’re in trouble.” (16:55)
The High Cost of Self-Erasure (18:29): Jen and Glennon discuss the soul-corroding experience of denying one's truth and living in misalignment just to maintain appearances.

“The amount of self erasure and self denial that that takes on repeat is so painful. It's so corrosive. I just felt my own soul eroding.” (Jen Hatmaker, 18:29)
The Liberation in Truth, Even When Life is Scorched Earth (21:12): "It is better to be alone and true than married and suffering." (Jen Hatmaker)

C. Quantifying the Cost of Self-Betrayal

Amanda frames the cost (21:24): Amanda asks how we can make visible the real cost of not knowing, given we focus so much on the visible losses of change and too little on the invisible price of self-betrayal.
Jen’s Reflection (24:09): Jen admires those who can admit truth and act before things implode, “Most of us have to go through some flames to get there.”
Glennon and Jen on Agency and Eviction Notices (24:32): They explore how some people change before being forced, while others wait for disaster. Glennon ties this dynamic to both relationships and the podcast’s own direction.

D. Motherhood and the Complexity of Leaving

Abby names the motherhood bind (26:18): “We prop up and prioritize our motherhood so much that we lose ourselves in the process.”
Jen responds (27:12): Divorce’s "shrapnel is massive"—it affects whole communities, not just partners and kids.
- Jen notes the myth of protecting children from all pain, sharing a humorous moment with her daughter Sydney:
  “She was like, mom, listen. Hear me out. Please consider becoming a lesbian. You'd never have to put up with another man's bullshit the rest of your life.” (Jen Hatmaker, 30:08)
- She concludes it's better for children to have divorced, healthy parents than stay in chaos.

E. Codependency, Shape-shifting, and the Price of Control

Jen’s Admission (33:42, 34:35): Jen reflects on how she shape-shifted and codepended herself into trying to control her husband, others’ perceptions, and family systems.
- “I had a very locked and loaded magical wand. And inside its interior was just a limitless supply of codependency.”
Codependency as Self-Erasure (39:17): Her therapy revealed she’d been sacrificing herself for a fundamentally broken dynamic.
Refusal to Accept What Is (40:18): Glennon summarizes, “I pretend that this thing is not what it is, and I pretend this person is not who he is ... your refusal to accept what is.”

F. Letting Go of Control—With Our Kids, With the World

Amanda and Glennon tie control to distrust in the world (44:11): “If you just go around letting people have the consequences of their actions, it’s a free for all, because the world is inherently untrustworthy...”
Jen connects it to faith (46:23): She notes her upbringing equated “doing it right” with avoiding suffering, but she’s had to rethink what trusting God really means.

G. Generational Change, Children, and Legacy

Glennon on children surpassing parents (50:49): “I just think that you're ... connect all of this to what goes on in the world ... our young adults were born on a different planet ... they're just so different.”
Jen’s pride in generational progress (54:38): Each generation “pushes the ball further down the field” (football metaphors abound) for women’s freedom and agency.

H. Admitting What We’re Pretending Not to Know

Naming the Knowing (63:28):
- Glennon: “Is there anything that anyone wants to admit on this podcast that they are currently pretending not to know?”
- Amanda: “By definition, if it’s really the thing, you’re not saying it right here.”
- Abby humorously admits: “I want to work less and play more golf.” (76:07)
- Jen affirms the depth and seriousness even in such seemingly small confessions, drawing parallels to life-altering moments.
Advice for Those on the Edge of Knowing (64:29): "First ... telling myself the truth ... the next thing is you've got to tell somebody who loves you ... saying it out loud to somebody takes away a little bit of the fear." (Jen Hatmaker, 66:13)
Ownership Without a Get-Out-of-Jail Card (70:11):
- Glennon: “I want women to be able to say, I don’t want this and not have a get out of jail free card.”
- Jen echoes the truth: “I'd love to see that narrative change where women have the freedom to make their own next right choice without catastrophe befalling them.”

3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“There is no such thing as a podcast emergency.” — Jen Hatmaker (8:15)
“I wanted the story of our marriage. I did not want our actual marriage.” — Jen Hatmaker (16:55)
“It is better to be alone and true than married and suffering.” — Jen Hatmaker (21:12)
“To me ... the next frontier ... usually comes when I admit that I know the thing I’m pretending not to know.” — Glennon Doyle (73:25)
“You don't have to wait for someone else to decide for you. And I wish that you wouldn't, because that introduces a layer of trauma and pain and suffering that you could to some degree avoid.” — Jen Hatmaker (64:29)
“I hope you remember as you are concerned with overexposure, is that the way that you handled the story ... you did with such grace and honoring of each of their stories ... you honored his part, your part, the world’s part, the beauty of the family.” — Glennon Doyle (82:37)
On intergenerational progress: “We got what we got, and we did what we could do, they got what they got, and they're doing what they could do. And it's just like marching that ball down the field little by little.” — Amanda (54:10)
“By showing your kids that it is better to have a broken marriage than to live as a broken woman.” — Glennon Doyle (56:13)
Sydney’s lesbian advice: “Mom, please, just try it. You’d never have to put up with another man’s bullshit.” — Jen Hatmaker (30:08)

4. Essential Timestamps

03:41 – Setting the scene: Jen drops everything to support Glennon at a moment of crisis.
10:25 – Jen recounts the moment her marriage ended.
16:55 – Jen reads “Untamed” and realizes, “We’re in trouble.”
18:29 – The corrosive cost of pretending not to know.
21:12 – The relief and pain of choosing truth.
24:32 – Why most people wait for the ‘eviction notice’ to change.
26:18 – How motherhood complicates leaving.
30:08 – Sydney’s advice to her mother, “Try being a lesbian.”
33:42 – Jen admits her deep patterns of codependency.
40:18 – Codependency summarized as refusing to accept what is.
44:11 – The tenacity of wanting to control outcomes for our loved ones.
50:49 – How children’s activism and honesty force us forward.
63:28 – What should listeners do if “the knowing” can’t be ignored any longer?
70:11 – Discussing the temptation to pass blame (“get out of jail free card”) and the importance of self-ownership in leaving.
73:25 – On leveling up: “The next frontier is admitting what you know.”
76:07 – Abby’s confession: “I want to work less and play more golf.”
82:37 – Glennon’s affirmation of Jen’s grace and integrity in storytelling.

5. Conclusion & Takeaways

Jen Hatmaker’s story exemplifies both the devastation and liberation that come from facing what you know in your bones, yet are desperate to deny.
The discussion normalizes the agony of stepping out of denial, the complexity of motherhood, and how social/religious systems shape our choices.
The episode affirms that it is possible—and essential—to choose truth, even at great cost; that admitting what you know is the path to wholeness; and that generational progress is real, even as each generation contends with its own hard things.

Final Reflection

"Tell yourself the truth. Tell someone you trust the truth. Say it out loud. The only thing that's guaranteed by pretending is that you—your real self—goes unseen. We can do hard things. And being honest is the hardest, most freeing thing of all." — Paraphrase from the Pod Squad

This summary delivers a full, engaging tour through a courageous, funny, and comforting episode—a resource for anyone grappling with “the knowing” in their own life.