Jenny Lawson is Broken (in the Best Possible Way) (Best Of)

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Jenny Lawson is Broken (in the Best Possible Way) (Best Of)
Hosted by Glennon Doyle and Audacy
Release Date: May 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this deeply moving episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in an intimate and honest conversation with the beloved author and humorist, Jenny Lawson. Known for her candid portrayal of mental health struggles through her bestsellers like Furiously Happy and Broken in the Best Possible Way, Jenny brings her unique blend of humor and vulnerability to the discussion, offering listeners profound insights into embracing one's imperfections and navigating the complexities of mental illness.

Jenny's Journey with Mental Health

The conversation begins with Jenny Lawson opening up about her lifelong battle with anxiety and depression. She shares, “[Anxiety] has always been my constant companion. So I'm not sure if I could even break it down to the first [panic attack]” (08:05). Jenny elaborates on how her mental health challenges manifested in childhood, describing behaviors that set her apart from her peers and how writing became her sanctuary and means of communication.

Embracing 'Brokenness'

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Jenny’s relationship with the term "broken." She explains, “The way in which I was broken… allows the light in and creates this ability to see things from a different perspective” (10:47). Jenny redefines "broken" not as a negative state but as a space where vulnerability and compassion can flourish. This perspective is central to her book Broken in the Best Possible Way, where she explores how embracing her flaws has led to deeper connections and personal growth.

The Power of Honest Storytelling

Jenny emphasizes the transformative power of sharing authentic experiences. She recounts how initially fearing to disclose her mental health struggles, she found unexpected support and solidarity when she began writing openly. “Instead of people running away, thousands of people said, ‘Me too. I also feel alone,’” she shares (23:30). This act of vulnerability not only forged a community of understanding but also played a pivotal role in saving lives by providing others with the encouragement to seek help.

Navigating Suicidal Ideation

The hosts delve into the sensitive topic of suicide, with Jenny providing a nuanced perspective. She discusses the importance of recognizing suicidal thoughts without judgment and the necessity of reaching out for support. “Talking about suicide makes people think, ‘Maybe it's not. I'm not alone,’ which can make you less depressed and less likely to commit suicide” (38:02). Jenny stresses that open conversations about suicide can demystify the stigma and encourage those struggling to seek the help they need.

Practical Tools for Managing Mental Health

Throughout the episode, Jenny offers practical advice for managing mental health conditions. She shares her strategies for dealing with ADD, such as using pink noise to block out distractions and setting time limits to maintain focus. “When I turn on pink noise, I can write. As soon as I get distracted, I know it’s turned off, and I can go say I worked for 20 minutes” (28:07). These actionable tips provide listeners with tangible methods to handle their own mental health challenges.

Engaging with Loved Ones

Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle highlight the importance of supportive communication with family and friends. Jenny advises parents to regularly check in with their children using direct questions like, “How are you really, on a scale from 1 to 10?” (49:04). This approach fosters an environment where children feel safe to express their true feelings without fear of judgment.

Finding Humor in Mortifying Moments

In true Jenny Lawson fashion, the conversation takes a lighter turn as the trio shares their most embarrassing stories. Jenny explains, “There is something so incredibly honest about sharing the most mortifying thing that has ever happened to you” (58:21). This segment underscores how humor and shared vulnerabilities can strengthen bonds and create a sense of belonging among individuals facing similar struggles.

Conclusion: Embracing Humanity Through Absurdity and Honesty

As the episode draws to a close, Jenny Lawson encapsulates the essence of the conversation by highlighting the beauty in embracing one's flaws and the importance of authentic connections. “You are human, Kintsugi, and we are so grateful for you. Thank you for helping us do hard things” (63:42). The hosts echo this sentiment, encouraging listeners to share their own stories and find strength in their shared experiences.

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Key Takeaways

• Vulnerability Fosters Connection: Sharing personal struggles can create a supportive community and alleviate feelings of isolation.

• Redefining 'Brokenness': Embracing imperfections allows for deeper self-compassion and empathy towards others.

• Importance of Open Conversations: Talking about mental health and suicide can reduce stigma and encourage those in need to seek help.

• Practical Strategies: Utilizing tools like pink noise and structured communication can aid in managing mental health challenges.

• Humor as a Healing Tool: Finding humor in embarrassing moments can strengthen relationships and provide emotional relief.

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Notable Quotes

• Jenny Lawson on Anxiety: “Anxiety has always been my constant companion. So I'm not sure if I could even break it down to the first [panic attack].” (08:05)

• Redefining Brokenness: “The way in which I was broken… allows the light in and creates this ability to see things from a different perspective.” (10:47)

• Impact of Sharing Stories: “Instead of people running away, thousands of people said, ‘Me too. I also feel alone.’” (23:30)

• Talking About Suicide: “Talking about suicide makes people think, ‘Maybe it's not. I'm not alone,’ which can make you less depressed and less likely to commit suicide.” (38:02)

• Humor in Embarrassment: “There is something so incredibly honest about sharing the most mortifying thing that has ever happened to you.” (58:21)

• Final Reflection: “You are human, Kintsugi, and we are so grateful for you. Thank you for helping us do hard things.” (63:42)

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Join the Conversation

Inspired by this episode? Share your most mortifying stories with us! Call us at 747-200-5307 or email at wcdhtpodmail.com. Your stories could be featured in our upcoming Mortifying Moments episode. Remember, when life gets hard, you can do hard things.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Produced by a dedicated team, the podcast aims to provide a space for honest conversations about life's challenges, fostering a community of support and understanding.

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Timestamps

• 08:05: Jenny discusses her lifelong anxiety.

• 10:47: Embracing the concept of being "broken."

• 23:30: The impact of sharing personal struggles.

• 28:07: Practical tools for managing ADD.

• 38:02: Importance of talking about suicide.

• 49:04: Communicating with loved ones about mental health.

• 58:21: Finding humor in embarrassing moments.

• 63:42: Final reflections on humanity and brokenness.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to moments within the podcast where significant topics and memorable quotes occur.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi, everybody.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hi.

[Abby Wambach]

How you doing, babe?

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm very excited.

[Abby Wambach]

And how are you, sis?

[Jenny Lawson]

I'm very excited. Oh, good to talk to our guests today.

[Abby Wambach]

Me too. As you might know, it's Mental Health Awareness Month.

[Jenny Lawson]

Otherwise known as all year in our world.

[Abby Wambach]

How funny is it that we would. We're gonna take one month to talk about our, our, our mental health. Like, it's so fascinating. It. I think it shows how we haven't yet figured out that mental health is for everyone. With a mental. Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

With a mind. Yes. I know you know it's in mind, but there are some people whose minds are so special and so different that they can serve as guides for all who have mentals. And our guest today is one of those guides and she has been a guide for me forever. I have been reading Jenny Lawson's well first on her blog, like, decades ago. The Bloggs is how I found her. I think her tagline on her website is like Mother Teresa, but better. That's how I First fell in love with her with just that line. I've always loved Jenny. She's a hero of a lot of folks. And it's for many reasons. One, because she's unbelievably hilarious and honest, but also because there's so many people who talk about mental health in, like, our cultural way of talking about it, which is like, just from an expert view or from like a before and after story, like, mental health extreme home makeover. Like, they used to be a mess and now they're better.

[Amanda Doyle]

Before and after.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. And it never feels true to me because that's never been true for me ever. So I don't understand how that I always feel like people are lying when they're done with mental health illness or something. Like, that's not the way it works.

[Amanda Doyle]

At least. It's just not the way it works for you and. And Jenny.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. I feel like for anyone. But I'm sure there's some people who have fixed.

[Amanda Doyle]

They're just trying to say that there might be different people out there also.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. But great for them, happy for them.

[Jenny Lawson]

Well, and it also speaks to, like, maybe that is true of those people's experiences, but it's not socially acceptable to talk about it from the thick.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Jenny Lawson]

It's only like, oh, I too used to be an alcoholic. I too used to whatever.

But.

But when you say, like, currently, now, right this moment, live broadcasting live to you is a very different beast.

[Abby Wambach]

It's revolutionary.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

In a world that just celebrates victory stories. And it's true in a way that makes people like me and millions of people feel really seen and okay and belonging. So she talks about mental illness from it, not just about it. She just shows up in the middle and is one of us. Let's just get her here. Can you just. We're obviously. Our guest is Jenny Lawson.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, Jenny Lawson.

[Jenny Lawson]

Funny, if it wasn't. Well, after that intro, we couldn't get Jenny. She's high demand. But we have this other girl who.

[Abby Wambach]

Used to know Jenny, who's been better now.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hi, Jenny.

[Jenny Lawson]

Hello. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad to be here. And also very nervous. I normally can't say that when I'm doing podcasts because I'm like, I'm going to be very professional, but this feels like a very safe place and that I can just be honest about it. And so. So I'm both very excited and also slightly terrified that I am going to disappoint in dealing with a lot of imposter syndrome. And fighting that off.

Yeah, same Jenny, right? Same to all of it. Yes, welcome. We welcome you with open arms.

[Abby Wambach]

And also, I just want to say there's no possible way you could ever disappoint. We have this hour together and I'm so thrilled to have this hour together. And if we just stood here and stared at each other, I would be so happy. I'm just grateful to finally get to see you and your face in real life. Can you read Jenny's bio?

[Amanda Doyle]

Jenny Lawson is an award winning writer and humorist known for her piercing candor in sharing her struggle with mental illness. She's written four, count that folks, four New York Times bestsellers, including let's Pretend this Never Happened, a mostly true memoir, Furiously Happy, a funny book about terrible things, and Broken in the Best Possible Way, which recently won the Goodreads Choice award for the best humor of 2021. She's the owner of Nowhere Bookshop, an indie bookstore in San Antonio. Jenny lives in Texas with her husband and child and would like to be your friend.

[Abby Wambach]

Unless you're a real asshole. Nobody be an asshole, sister Abby, don't be. I'm trying to. I'm trying to be Jenny's friend.

[Jenny Lawson]

See how she led with me? Jenny? She added Abby to be sweet.

[Abby Wambach]

But mostly it was for me.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I mean, I don't think that I of any of the three of us have assholeries.

[Jenny Lawson]

You're the least asshole on the pie chart.

[Abby Wambach]

You're a sliver. Need to talk to myself.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's exactly what I was trying to get at.

[Jenny Lawson]

I think it depends. It depends on what you're using your assholery for. Because it. It can be a fantastic tool for the right thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Jenny, talk to us about. First of all, it's Mental Health awareness month and the next month is Pride month. So this is like really my time to shine. Jenni, I'm just really. This is like game month for us. Can you tell us in Broken, which I freak. I love all of your books so much. Broken is just the most recent one I've read and I've read it twice and I read it once for my own little heart and. And mental. And then for again for the interview. Talk to us about your first panic attack that you remember when you were little.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, goodness. Anxiety has always been my constant companion. So I'm not sure if I could even break it down to the first. It's really more that there's a lot of stuff that in retrospect, as I got older, I looked at and said, you know what? The average kid does not take out all of their toys out of the toy box and shut themselves in like it's a tiny coffin or a sensory deprivation chamber. The average kid doesn't, you know, throw up every day when. Because they're going to have to go to school. And the average kid doesn't have problems communicating with people. And so for me, it was always just my constant. I was just weird. I think now it's easier to be weird. But this was, you know, back in the 70s, 80s, when you couldn't find your other weirdos. And, you know, I'm living out in rural Texas. And it. Yeah, it was rough. It took a long time before I saw. That's really kind of how I discovered writing was because I couldn't communicate in any other way. And so not only because I was so afraid of talking, but also when I would talk, I would get really panicky. So I would either not talk at all and I was just the very quiet person sitting in the corner, or as soon as I started to talk, I could not stop. And I would ramble and I would go off on these ridiculous tangents. And now I embrace it. Now I'm like, I'm okay with the ridiculous tangents, but at the time, it was a different era, and people were like, oh, there's something real wrong with her. But finding writing gave me the ability to slow down time and sort of reprocess it and say, okay, here's what I want you to know, and here's who I am. And it was through that that I was able to communicate.

[Abby Wambach]

That tracks. So your book is called Broken? The most recent one. And it's so interesting because I always had a complicated relationship with that word. My friend Brandi Carlisle named her book Broken Horses. And I was like, no, you cannot name it Broken Horses. Like, you're not broken. We had a whole thing. I was like, if you name it Broken Horses, no one will read it. And then she did, and then it became this huge New York Times bestseller. So that was fine.

[Jenny Lawson]

As did Jenny's.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, as did Jenny. So I'm not getting asked for advice about titles anymore, but can you tell me your relationship to the word broken and your embracing of that word?

[Jenny Lawson]

So for me, I've always felt a little bit just not right. I have clinical depression that's treatment resistant. And I have anxiety disorder, and I have avoidant personality disorder, which just makes me kind of think that everybody hates me all the time. I have impulse control disorder, and I have trichotillomania. Like, I collect disorders like other people collect Holly Hobby. And I just was like, there's something really wrong with me because I don't know anybody else like this. The more that I explored it, the more that I realized that the way in which I was broken, and I use that word in a way, like, of sort of reclaiming it. Broken as in shattered in a slightly different way, but in a way that lets the light in, and it creates this ability to see things from a different perspective. I think that. I mean, it is a horrible struggle to deal with mental illness, but I think that for a lot of people, it creates a very deep well of compassion because, you know how hard it is. And also because, you know, everybody's depression presents in a different way, which was something that, for me, I always have to continue to remind myself because some people will be like, oh, I'm really depressed. And so I was crying all day. And I'm like, my depression presents as an extremely uncomfortable numbness. My face feels like it doesn't connect to me. I have absolutely no energy. I just basically have to cling to the couch and be like, keep breathing. Your depression is lying to you. Your depression is telling you some terrible things right now, and none of them are true. And that is awful and terrible. But it also makes me who I am. And that's not to say that if somebody said, like, here, take this pill. You can get fixed forever, I wouldn't be like, yes, please, let me have it. I'm not like, oh, yes, I love to suffer. It's great. But one of my doctors said, and it was one of the nicest things that anyone has ever said to me. It's always stuck with me. He was like, you don't let your pain go to waste. And I think. I think that's every single time when I'm struggling, and everybody has their own struggle, you know, with whatever it is. I just think if we all could just learn from that because it's so easy to turn brittle or angry, but to. To turn it and make it into, you know, positive forward motion of, how could you help others? How could you have compassion for others? How can you have compassion for yourself? Because, I mean, honestly, I'm really good at forgiving people for the things that they do to me. I. It is almost impossible for me to forgive myself or, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, I don't go to the PTA meetings because I can't handle it. And I don't go to, you know, so many of my kids Things that I really want to be a part of. And I'm like, I just. I physically cannot make myself do it. I have to sort of pick and choose. And it's. It was really hard for a long time to. To deal with the fact of the disappointment that I felt in myself as a mom, especially when Haley was really young. Because when they were young, I didn't have any ability to sort of tell them that there was something wrong, except I would just be like, I just don't feel very good. And so whenever things would get really bad, our thing was we would watch Doctor who, because I was like, I can just sit on the couch. And it's one of the TV shows that doesn't, like, jar me for some reason. And so we would spend all this time, and I would be thinking, all of these other mothers are out there. They're cooking dinner for their kids. I'm not. They're washing their clothes. They're doing all this stuff. I'm just laying here. I'm literally doing nothing, Just trying to breathe to get through this week. And when Haley was older, I was able to explain it to them and apologize, and they were like, first of all, I didn't really realize that that was what you're going through, and I'm so sorry. But also, those were the best memories for me. Like, do you not understand? Like, you sat with me on the couch. Everybody else's mom was like, I don't have time for you. I gotta go do that. I gotta. But you were like, oh, no, this is just me and you time. We're gonna spend four hours just sitting here snuggling and watching Doctor who.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Jenny Lawson]

So beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

God, the things we think are. We should feel guilty about are the moments our kids are like, there she is. She's with us.

[Amanda Doyle]

She's letting me watch four hours of tv. I love my mama.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

One of the things that's so important to me is it's not just, oh, we're broke and busted up, so there are these silver linings. It's like there's this chapter in your book called Rainbow Fire about like the actual gifts of these ways of being. Not just the sour grapes, not just silver linings, but like there's this moment where you're on tour for the book. And so Jenny writes these Books, she writes them. I think from much of her writing comes. She makes sure she's in the place. She's in the depression, she's in the anxiety. That's why we can feel it's so real and so connected. Then she has to go on tour.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, what you do. Sick joke.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so you have this one moment where you're on tour, you're in a hotel room. You're supposed to go out and speak to all of these people about your book, and you get extremely anxious, and you can't go out, and you can't go out into the world, and you are stuck in this hotel room and you're too anxious to go explore, which for me is such a metaphor of anxiety. It's like, what always literally happens. And then you're like, oh, I'm missing my life. And all of those people are out there out the window, doing the things humans are supposed to do.

[Jenny Lawson]

And.

[Abby Wambach]

But I can't experience life because of this anxiety, and I'm wasting my life. And then. Can you tell everybody what happens next when you're looking out the window?

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah, I'm looking out the window. And you can see, like, Times Square up here, and you can see, like, just all of these things that. That I'd always heard about on, like, you know, you read about them and you hear about them, and then you actually see them in real life, and you're like, oh, my God, that's a real place, and it really exists. It's not just like a fairy tale kind of thing. I kept going back and forth from my window to my door, and. And every time I would get stuck and I would be like, I cannot do it. I cannot leave this hotel room. I cannot make myself leave here. My anxiety is too strong, and I just felt like such a failure. And I sat down next to the window and just opened it up, and I was like, at least I can feel like I'm kind of in New York. I can hear the noise. And I looked down, and there's this big fountain, and it's. I don't know what it's called, but it looks like a whole bunch of dandelions. And it's like fountains on fountains, and it's so pretty. And I look down, and I notice that there is this rainbow fire coming up off of this. Of this fountain. And I am trying to figure out what it is, and I realize that it's a prism effect. And I'm looking at it, and I'm like, I've never seen Anything so beautiful and everybody is walking past it as if they couldn't care at all. And I just thought maybe they're just so used to it. You know, you get used to beauty, you don't see it anymore. And then I realized that that wasn't what it was at all. It was because I was so high up in my building that I was the only one that could see the light, hit it in that certain way, and that no one else was seeing this amazing, fantastic thing that was greater than anything that I would have seen out there. And. And that sometimes life creates a path for you and it ends up that it's the right path. And I just, I was so grateful that I was there in that moment.

[Abby Wambach]

You said. I was reminded that there are amazing things I would never see with normal eyes and other paths. I cried again. But this time out of a small thankfulness that my brokenness set me in the place where I am beautiful, terrible, unseen by most.

[Jenny Lawson]

You have so many of these so called brokennesses and you just mentioned a few of them. You also have ADD and severe autoimmune diseases. I think one of the reasons so many people hold to your words like a lifeline is, is that you're able to put words to experiences that so many have but are lonely and severely isolated inside of because they don't have a bridge of words to be seen and understood by other people. And you put words to these internal realities that are so absurdly accurate and honest and, and brilliant and often hilarious that you are bringing light to the experience that so many have. And I believe it's saving lives that you are giving people a bridge to walk over with your words. You describe your ADD self as a kitten on cocaine.

Yeah.

Please say more.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Jenny Lawson]

What is it like to live?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Jenny Lawson]

With add it is utterly exhausting. It's very much like working on LSD where you just, you think like, oh, I think I'm doing this. And then later you look and you're like, well, I was not doing that at all. Very regular basis. Like I would say, like on a typical day like today, and this has happened. I cannot even count how many times this has happened. Today I have this hyper fixation on. I tend to eat the same thing over and over again. So my hyper fixation lunch, which I've had pretty much every day for maybe three years, is a pimento cheese sandwich on toasted bread. And like I'm keeping pimento big pimento cheese is in business just because of me. And so I went to put Toast in the toaster. And there was already toast in the toaster. And I was like, did I. I must have done this already. But then I looked at it, and I was like, wow, it's really cold. And I'm like, oh, it's stale. And I'm like, oh, I did this yesterday. I did it yesterday and forgot to eat. It just literally was like, yeah, I guess I must have eaten. My biggest problem is that I have a lot of problems remembering to get my medication filled because I have add, which is impossible. And then I'll. Because I have aging. And I'm just. Just kind of. I get things kind of confused. I'm like, did I take. Did I take the pill? Did I not take the pill? And then I'll be like, wait, did I take my vitamin pill? Am I ODing on vitamins? I can't. I have no idea. I need to. I need to find a better. I need one of those. Like, I think there's some sort of machine that says, like, not you. You had too many. Like. And so instead I ended up not taking it because I'm like, I don't know. Maybe I already had one. I'm not going to chance it. Yeah, it's really hard. I've had to find a whole lot of tools. And the really great thing about with mental illness, with depression, with anxiety, is that there are so many people now who are willing to talk about it. They're willing to say, like, this is what works for me. This is what works for me. And you can kind of pick and choose. And I always think, like, I have my toolbox, and I can be like, okay, this works for me. This thing that everybody was like, totally works. This thing does not work for me. And so when somebody's like, you should try yoga. Like, fuck you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I agree.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Jenny Lawson]

It works for everybody else. But no, I don't want to sweat and be uncomfortable, and I'm going to strain something. And also, I'm going to fart so many times. I can't do that in public.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you.

[Jenny Lawson]

Right?

You're like, that should be good for my anxiety.

[Abby Wambach]

Thinking about farting in front of certain.

[Jenny Lawson]

People from the PTA the entire time.

And you're in these positions and nobody else farts. I've been to three yoga classes. No one ever farts. And the whole time I'm like, how? There's nothing. Nothing. Anyway, it's insane. But I have all these tools. And so for me, um, one that has been really helpful is Pink Noise, which is. It's Kind of like, you know, they have, like, different kinds of, like, gray noise and brown noise and whatever pink noise it sounds like. Kind of like the ocean. Um, but there's something about that particular tone that helps block out. So, like, when I have add, I hear, like, I hear all the light bulbs in the house, and I hear. I mean, everything is very loud all the time, so I can't concentrate on anything else. It's like, it. It's like if everything in your house turned up the volume to 90 and people are talking to you normally, and you're going, do you not hear what's going on? We're in the middle of an earthquake. And they're like, no, it's really not. I'm like, do you hear the lights? And they're like, no. But if you talk to people with add, most of them will say, oh, yeah. Oh, my God, the lights in here are so loud. Especially, like, fluorescent lights, awful. But pink noise drowns it out. And the really helpful thing is when I'm writing, because I have a really hard time, like, sitting down and getting things done. There's a YouTube compilation of just, like, free, whatever, pink noise. And I think it's, like, 20 minutes long. And so when I turn it on, I can write. And as soon as I start to get distracted, I know that it's turned off, and I can go to. I can say to myself, I just worked for 20 minutes. Even if I only got one sentence done, even if I'm going to delete it, it still gives me a chance to say, I completed 20 minutes. I think I can do another 20. Let's try it one more time.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow, that's so awesome. As someone who deals with add, does it annoy you or not? When people are like, I'm so add, like, on all their memes and graphics, because they forgot one thing. Is that an annoyance and a hurtful thing for you?

[Jenny Lawson]

I understand why it's hurtful for other people. For me. No, it doesn't. For me, it feels like. It feels kind of compassionate in some way, because they're like, oh, this really sucks that I was forgetful, or I was this. You know, like that. And it's not the same. And of course, you shouldn't make fun of it and everything, but at the same time, I mean, I call myself crazy all the time. And there are some people who are like, you can't call yourself crazy. And I'm like, you know what? I get to take that word back. I'm like, justin Timberlake was sexy. I'M taking crazy back. You know, like, I embrace it and I'm. And I'm okay with it. One of the really nice things that has come from writing about mental illness is the fact that this is. I'm gonna have to tell the story backwards to get to the thing. When I first wrote about it.

[Abby Wambach]

I.

[Jenny Lawson]

Was very afraid to talk about it. But I. What I would do is I would write these funny posts and I would keep them so that when I was having a week when I couldn't do anything at all, I could publish them then. And I was like, oh, this is good. This is covering. And this is. But what happened was, in fact, it made it so much more painful because of the cognitive dissonance of people going, like, you're so funny. Oh, my gosh. And instead, I'm like, I cannot shower. I cannot stand up. Like, I hate myself. And so I was like, I'm just gonna have to write about it. And when I did, my father, he just was like, this. I don't think this is a good idea. This could affect you. I just. But I did anyway. And what happened was, instead of people running away, thousands of people said, me too. I also feel alone. I also feel sometimes like the world would be better off without me. I also listen to those lies that depression tells, and I have to remind myself that those lives and that when I come out, I'll go, oh, that was. That was not real. And so what happened was I got all of these responses from people later on who were actively in the process of planning their suicide and decided to not. And to get help, not because of what I wrote, but because they saw thousands of anonymous strangers say, me too. Me too. I also feel like this. And they thought, how could they possibly feel like the world would be better off without them? And then they thought, well, if I feel that for that stranger, maybe I could give myself that same benefit of the doubt. What is so amazing is that now there are all of these people who reached out and they got help, and they're still alive today. And they're, you know, mothers and fathers and children and parents and their. And they were saved by anonymous strangers who have no idea that they saved lives. Like, you don't know the ripples that you put out there. It just. In saying, I also feel like that, that they saved lives. And after that, my dad was like, I'm really proud of you, and I'm going to start talking about my mental illness, too. And before, you know, he really. I mean, to the point where, like, when I first started to see a psychiatrist when I was like, this is really bad. My mom just kind of sat me down and said, you know, this runs in your family. You know that your dad has some really difficult issues and you know, your aunts and your grandparents. And I was like, no, no one told me. And. But that, but that's how, that's how it was. It was only recently that I found out that my. I think she was my great great grandmother, my grandmother's grandmother. I was doing some genealogy stuff and I found that she died in a mental institution in our town. And I was like, that's so strange because I would have thought that I would have heard something about that. And my mom was like, I didn't know anything about that. And my grandmother was like, I didn't know anything about. Because it was hidden. It was completely hidden. And I found her death certificate and it was death of related to psychosis. And I was like, well, psychosis doesn't kill you. And so I did some research on that hospital and what they did at the time was insulin therapy where they put you into a diabetic coma. And they did this where they put you in freezing cold water, hydrotherapy. They did just these really barbaric treatments that a ton of people died from because they had heart attacks. And that's what happened with her. And so every time that I start to think it's hard to open up, it's hard to open yourself up and know that even though 99.9% of the people are going to say, hey, I'm with you, or someone I love also has depression or I don't get it, but at least you're funny about it, or you know that there's still going to be that 0.1% who's like, oh, I knew you were crazy. They should take your kid away. They should, you know, lock you up. I just look at how far we've, how far we've come and how easy it could be to fall back. I mean, we can see that now with stuff that's going on the Supreme Court, where I'm like, oh, this was a done deal. I didn't have to think about this for the rest of my life. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, this is back. What?

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

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[Jenny Lawson]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Jenny I feel like it's important to talk about suicide and it's scary to talk about it because people are convinced that it's talking about it is contagious that like if you talk about it that means other people will think of it or something and maybe they wouldn't have thought of it before. And I think that comes from a good place too, right? Everybody's just trying to avoid it. But what has always been surprising to me, and I have no idea if this is just because of my mental health issues, is that people seem so shocked. I can't even imagine is usually the refrain, right? Like I can't even imagine. And that is always very feels like othering to me because I'm always like really? Like you can't, you can't. You've never thought about that like so I don't even know exactly what I'm trying to say. But what I think. What I'm trying to say is I feel like talking about it, even admitting, yes, I too, have had those feelings. I, too, have considered suicide. I have had beginning thoughts or middle thoughts or. I don't think that that propagates suicide. I think that it. What you just said is so important. Talking about it makes people think, oh, maybe it's not. I'm not alone in it. And that makes you less depressed, which makes you less likely to commit suicide. Right? Like, is.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. You know, there are some issues. So, like, for instance, I have suicidal ideation, which means that I think about suicide a lot, even though it's not necessarily something where I'm like, oh, let's do it. It's just an impulsive thought that I have. And for a long time it really bothered me because I would think that, and I would get so upset about it, and then I would get upset about being upset, and it would actually make it much worse. And instead, what I've learned is the best thing to do is just to, like, recognize that emotion and that thought and go like, okay, I see you. That's a little crazy. Put it in a bubble, push it off, and then if it comes back, you just continue to do that. The other thing is that for a lot of people, if you're in a dark place or if you have suicidal ideation, one of the things that you have to learn, and it's a really hard process, but you have to learn how to take care of yourself. And sometimes that does mean removing yourself from that sort of stuff. There are certain types of triggers of. There's like, some movies that I'm like, oh, I want to see this movie so bad. And I'll do, like, a little search, and it'll be like, oh, this type of this happens. And I'm like, I can't, because I. Because I know it'll make those thoughts, and I don't want to have to deal with it. So it does kind of suck that you're kind of having to carry your brain around in a little bag and go, like, I know you want to look at this thing. This really dark thing. Looks exciting to you because your brain's there. But, you know, but. But I absolutely think that talking about suicide is. And the thoughts of it are so important, because I think when it happens, it can be so terrifying that you can automatically think, well, I guess that that choice was maybe the right choice. Instead of having somebody say, oh, it's okay to have that thought. That thought doesn't mean that you're going to act on it. It just means that you need to talk to somebody. You know, you just need to make sure that you're safe. You need to, you know, talk to a therapist, talk to a friend. I've called the crisis hotline so many times, and it's wonderful. It's so helpful. Even sometimes I'll get somebody and I'm like, nope, okay, I'll talk to you later. And then I'll call back and I'll be like, can I talk to somebody else? Because sometimes you get people who want to fix you. And I'm like, I don't really want somebody to fix it. I just want somebody to say, that sucks. I'm so sorry. You're doing really good. You're going to get through this. And that's what I continue to remind myself. But, yeah, you always see people who are like, I can't believe that this person had everything going for them. And when your brain is not working properly, it doesn't matter.

[Abby Wambach]

It doesn't matter.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yeah. And we don't do this to anything else. We don't go like, oh, she lost her battle to canc. She must be so weak. And I think suicide is terrible and horrible. And if you were in any way thinking about it at all, I can tell you you need to reach out, you need to get help, because there are so many people who would miss you. I mean, you do not know the ripples that you would make. But I also will say, for a lot of people who have left us, I feel really badly that for so many of them, that's all people think about is their last moments when I'm like, they had such an amazing, wonderful life and we should celebrate that. And I think that also can be really helpful for people who have suicidal ideation, because when somebody big dies by suicide, we all feel like, oh, my God, I could be next. I could be next. And. And you feel like, oh, okay, well, they failed. And if you have. If you can retrain your brain to be like, actually they succeeded in saving their life over and over and over again. Like, Robin Williams had this, like, long and amazing life filled with comedy and humor and pathos and severe ups and downs and flu. And he had such an amazing life. And. And I think it's really sad when people just go like, oh, his life was a tragedy because it ended in this way. Because everybody's life is an amazing chance to excel, to celebrate magic and appreciate it and feel it. And if you right now are feeling depressed and numb and feeling like you're never going to feel that again. I mean, you just have to trust that you will come out. And every single time I'm in a depression, I just came out of one. And when I was in it, I had to go back and read my own stuff to be like, okay, the past Jenny said, I'll come out again. And past Jenny must know. It doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel like it's possible. And then it does, and you can breathe again, and light works again. And you can. You could just be a normal person, which is so fantastic, but also a little exhausting because you come out and you're two weeks behind on everything. And there's. There's always people who are like, well, it's because you're lazy. You know, if you exercised more, you.

[Abby Wambach]

Know, damn yoga people.

[Jenny Lawson]

Exactly. If you prayed the right way, if you found the right God, if you. You know, there's always you. It's pretty. It's probably your glucose. No, it's your gluten. No, it's your. I'm like, you know what? It's just my brain. It's generations of people. We just have weird brains.

[Abby Wambach]

Coming out of. It is so interesting, though. I saw something that made me feel so seen. I'm sure it was a meme, because that's the way my brain works. But it said something like, coming out of depression is when you do your worldwide apology tour. And I feel like that's it. It's just like, you're in it. And then you spend the next month apologizing for every freaking thing you didn't do. Didn't show up for the things you said, the things you didn't say. It takes another month.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, my God. That is absolutely 100%. And then you have this, like, doubt in yourself of, you know, I didn't do these things that, like, the average normal person can do. I mean, it really is, like, waking up and you have the worst flu ever, and you don't know how long it's gonna last.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Jenny Lawson]

And everybody's like, well, you can push through the flu, but then they have the flu, and they're like, oh, I can't push through this. I literally can't get out of bed. And it's like, that's what it is. Except it's the flu that's in your brain. But guess what? Your brain controls everything. All my favorite stuff is in there. So, like, when it's broken, all of this is Broken. Everything that's attached to this is broken. That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. Oh, so good.

[Jenny Lawson]

That's so amazing. All my favorite stuff's in there. I'm just going to say real quick for anyone who's experiencing that, who needs a place to reach out. Jenny mentioned the crisis Hotline. It is 8002-7382-5580-0273-8255. And if you're sitting here thinking, how is that brilliant, amazing woman possibly considering that the world might be better without her, that's crazy. No pun intended. That is also true for you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Jenny Lawson]

Who is listening.

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And for someone who never has had any experience with suicide and doesn't understand what we're talking about, one thing that you could do is just to make sure that whenever you're in a conversation about this or you hear about it, that you react with reverence and not judgment. This is something we can do. We can stop saying that suicide is selfish. We can stop doing. You know, I always think about this poem that Warsawn Shire wrote about refugee, her refugee experience, when I think about suicide. And she said she has this one line that says, you must understand no one leaves their home unless the water is safer than the land.

[Jenny Lawson]

And that's how I literally have that book right next to me. Really. Oh, my gosh.

[Abby Wambach]

And that's what I want us. Every time someone says it's so self. I want to be so selfish, it's so whatever. I can't imagine. I want to say, you have to understand no one leaves their home unless the water is safer than the land. So just, just be grateful you don't understand and have some reverence. Yeah.

[Jenny Lawson]

I have a lot of people who will, will come to me and will say, I, I don't understand it. I don't understand depression, I don't understand anxiety. But my wife or my husband, they suffer from it. And so they gave me your book to try to understand. And I have a better understanding, but what am I supposed to do to help them? And I think that's first of all such an amazing. I love the fact that their first thought is not, this is going to be exhausting for me, it's how do I help them? And I always just say, like, it's different for every single person. And really the best thing that you can do is to just ask them, what is it that you need from me? One other thing that I would say that so I don't talk about my child and their experience because they're 17 and I'm like, you know what? When you're 18, I mean, they talk about their own stuff, but I'm like. I'm like, I'm not going to publicly talk about any of their stuff until they're an adult and they're okay with it, and they can make that decision fully. And so. But I will say, for parents, especially if you have hereditary issues, one of the greatest things that you can do is to ask your kid how they are. And that sounds so dumb. How are you? But to really be like, but really, how are you? On a scale from 1 to 10, 0 being the worst, 10 being the best. And that's really helpful because sometimes you'll have a kid and they'll be like, I'm a 10. And that's actually not great. Like, that might be like, maybe there's some swings that are going on there. Maybe there is. And also the fact that they're able to, like, think about it that way and be like, where am I really? Where would it. Because you automatically want to say, fine. You automatically want to either please your parents or get away from your parents, usually both, if they're teenagers. And so that, to me, has been really helpful is that question of, how are you really, once a day, one to ten, where are you right now? And it's okay. I'm not going to judge you. Nothing bad's going to happen. I'm on your side. There's all sorts of different options. It's something that I wish I had found earlier. So I always pass that on to parents.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, putting a number on it. I think, for me, especially with Glennon, who also suffers from depression and anxiety, I have had to tune into some of her triggers, like, become hyper aware of some of her triggers. Actually, one of them happened last night. And the way I respond to knowing that something could be upsetting or could be creating an anxiety in her, the way in which I respond to that, the way in which I ask about that almost is more important in some ways than me even asking. I mean, I think the number. Putting a number on it is like, a brilliant way because it kind of cuts out any kind of judgment in it. And so that I think is gonna be.

[Abby Wambach]

Words don't make any sense.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's gonna be, like, really helpful, I think, for me in my marriage, you know, because I'll just say, how are you feeling? You know, and she's like.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm like, don't give me another job.

[Amanda Doyle]

She's doing like, six, like, calculations in her head, like, why a. Why did you fucking ask me that?

[Jenny Lawson]

And B, why do I not look.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like I'm feeling exactly am I, how am I responding? So I think that that number, putting a number on it is really, really beautiful.

[Jenny Lawson]

Plus fine can mean so many different things. That fine depends on your baseline. I mean, if you fine can mean I'm getting through, I'm surviving, I'm going to show up tomorrow.

[Abby Wambach]

But.

[Jenny Lawson]

But that's not necessarily fine. Like when I was reading your book, Jenny, it was one of the things that convinced me to get on anti anxiety medicine because I read a part of your book that has always been my fine. That has always been. I just thought that's how life was and I didn't understand there could be a way that could be different, that that might actually be anxiety. That is that experience that could potentially get better for me as opposed to I would have said I was fine because that's how I've always 100% been. I want to read this one part that I identified so much with because it, to the extent it helps anyone else. You were talking about anxiety and you said sometimes my anxiety gets hard in ways that you might not expect. If you struggle with anxiety, you probably know this feeling, the paralysis. I get stuck and suddenly it's been days since I replied to people on the Internet and the pressure gets worse and I panic that people I haven't respond to are mad at me. So I ignore their emails and I don't look at my DMs or my text and I don't answer my phone or listen to voicemails because if I just wait until my mind gets better, maybe I can deal with this then. But I don't because it doesn't. And instead I look at those unopened emails from my friends and family and colleagues until I have memorized the subject lines by heart. And I think about how strange it is that they probably think I'm ignoring them when in fact I am utterly haunted by them.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, I. I always think, I'm sorry I didn't write you back. It's because I like you so much.

[Jenny Lawson]

The idea that you would spend an hour thinking about the email that would take five minutes to write back and not understand why you're such a deeply up person that you have now spent six hours thinking about someone who must only assume that you don't give a about them because why won't you text them back for the third time that they're like, just text me back and let me know you're okay and you're like.

[Abby Wambach]

And then you just shut. Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Lawson]

Then it gets even worse. Yes. My husband always. He'll walk in and he'll be like, touch it once. That's the rule. You open an email, you immediately respond to it. You close it, touch it once, never. And my. I had hit mark is unread. That is my, like, defaults. I look at an email and I'm like, nope. Can't respond to that. Mark is. And they're simple emails. They're sit there. But I'm just like, nope, I don't know. I don't know how words work. And then I'll come out of it. And all of a sudden it's like, I'm a superhero. Like, oh, my God, is this how normal people are? I went to CVS to pick up my medication and didn't have to lay down afterwards.

[Abby Wambach]

Hero.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, my God. It's just. It's so insane.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, it's so good. Okay, so we are so close to out of time. So we want to end with this. First of all, very quickly, I need to tell you that the word stet I wear around my neck.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yay. Sound like the wind, Motherfucker.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, what does stet mean?

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so stet, which Jenny has an entire chapter about in your book. Okay, so when you first start writing and you write a book, and then your editor's like, you should change everything. And you're like, you're right. Just change everything. Just change it all. I suck at writing. And then when you get to a certain point where your editor asks you to change all these things and you can write this fancy word that is stet, S T E T. And what that means is leave it as it stands. Leave it as I wrote it. Let it stand. Or as Jenny says. Okay, this is what Jenny says. Stet is my favorite verb. And it is the drier setting I live my life in. Yes, it's fucked up, but I like it that way.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

So thank you for that.

[Jenny Lawson]

Exactly, exactly. It's so wonderful. I'm like, sometimes you just. You have to learn how to write and what all the rules are just so that you can break all the rules.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Jenny Lawson]

And it's so freeing and fantastic, and there are so many things that I have given myself permission to in my life. Like, I don't own a. An ironing board or an iron. Because guess what? Dryers exist. You know, put it in the dryer that 100% works. I don't always, you know, use a plate, because if you eat over the sink. It's just.

[Abby Wambach]

You can use your shirt.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, my God. 100%. 100. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yes. Well, and see, I wear dresses because it's like a picnic table that you're wearing all the time. It is the best. And people are always like, oh, it must be so uncomfortable to wear a dress. I'm like, are you kidding me? I'm not wearing pants. Wouldn't you like to take your pants off right now? I don't understand why. And all my dresses have pockets. So I'm just like, no, that's it. That's it. This is the key to my life, is dresses that are big enough that I can eat all my food on, they have to be, like, super washer friendly. None of them have to be ironed, and they have to be made out of whatever fabric that cat fur doesn't stick to. And that's. Yeah, that's all.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, every time I see a hand wash or dry clean only, I just think, well, I guess this is gonna be disposable. This is gonna be like, I wear it one time and then I throw it away. Because, no, absolutely no one's doing that. No one's doing that.

[Jenny Lawson]

No, absolutely no one is doing that.

[Abby Wambach]

It's kind of a pretentious charade.

[Jenny Lawson]

I'm like, okay, sure, T shirt.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like when I buy broccoli. It's like when I buy broccoli at the grocery store and I bring it home, and Abby's like, should I just throw this directly in the trash, or do you wanna put it in the refrigerator for two weeks and then throw it in the trash? Cause it's like a hopeful version of myself goes to the grocery store, and then a different version of myself lives in my home.

[Jenny Lawson]

See, that's why I go straight to the frozen broccoli.

[Abby Wambach]

That's great.

[Jenny Lawson]

And especially the one that you can make in its own pack, because then, guess what? It's its own bowl. You just open it up and you put some. You can either put butter in there, or you know what you could put in there? Pimento cheese.

You don't even have to be dressed then.

[Abby Wambach]

No, there's no reason for you to have your dress. So you can just have your frozen.

[Jenny Lawson]

Broccoli just naked with your Mr. Who.

Oh, my God.

[Abby Wambach]

So what we're saying is, if you go to the grocery store and you find yourself in front of the fresh broccoli, you look at the fresh broccoli and you say, stat, motherfucker. And then you Go to the frozen section and take off your dress. Take off your dress.

[Jenny Lawson]

Pull it.

Naked broccoli.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Jenny Lawson]

And go home.

They're gonna make you go in front. Everybody's gonna be like, no, that's okay. You can go ahead of me. You can go ahead. Cause you're the naked person holding frozen broccoli who's gonna mess with you in life.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. So what the next right thing is going to be, Jenny, is one of the things that we've been talking about incessantly about you is just what we've. You've just done. It's like life is so ridiculous and being a human being is so ridiculously difficult. And there's just this one thing that helps. Maybe two things. One is honesty, and the other one is absurdity. The way that you embrace absurdity as. It's like an injection of humanity and joy into life that just demands. It's like desire and absurdity are like the only things that can help us hold on to our humanity. So you have like entire chapters or, or months on social media that it's all I read for a month where you were like talking about mortifying things that, that you do. Like when you're in the airport and the person says, have a great flight, and you're like, you too. And then you're like, why? Again?

[Amanda Doyle]

Every time?

[Abby Wambach]

And then everybody starts telling their mortifying stories and it's this common. What is it, Jenny? It's like nothing bonds us like our humiliating human. Humiliating. It's like the word human in it.

[Jenny Lawson]

Yes. Yes. There is something so incredibly honest about sharing the most mortifying thing that has ever happened to you. Not only because you are opening yourself up in such a vulnerable way, but because that thing that has been stuck in your head that you've been like, oh my God, that horrible thing that happened to me in seventh grade that I lay at night at 2:00 clock in the morning and just my stomach hurts when I think about it. Once you share it and people laugh and say, oh my God, you thought that was bad. Let me tell you what happened to me. And then all of a sudden you're making friends and you realize that those are the people that you want to be friends with. You don't want to be friends with the people where you're like, oh, I have a car. And they go, oh, I have a nicer car. And you go, oh, I can't wait to be friends with you. I don't. You have. Whatever. Nobody's like, oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. This person has, like really great hair. And so I want to be best friends with them. No, you want to be friends with the people who make you laugh, who make you feel safe, who make you feel comfortable. And you know what was really great is not only that. I mean, they were so utterly fantastic. Every single one that was shared that I was like, I need to put this in the book because this really helped me. And I thought I was like, I want to give credit to all of the people. And I thought, I bet a lot of them will be like, I do not want this in a book that people are going to read. And so I reached out to, I want to say maybe 100, 150. And every single person said, absolutely, yes, you can use it. And they were like, not only did that terrible thing turn into something that now is so funny, I have found friends out of this who I'm now friends with because they reached out online. And now this thing that before made my stomach hurt every time I thought about it, now I'm like, oh, that was part of a New York Times best selling book. Humor and acceptance. And yeah, it's just, it's amazing. And that's what people. That's what people want. They want from each other and that's what they. What we want from ourselves is that authenticness of like, hi, I'm fucked up. Are you fucked up too? Can we be fucked up together? Can I lower my shield? Okay, let's hide behind both of our shields. And then all of a sudden there's like this whole group of people and we're all together and we're like, this is.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, God, it's so good.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Hell yes. Because of you, we started telling our most humiliating stories, just the three of us. We're going to do a whole episode on our Jenny Loveson inspired most humiliating stories.

[Jenny Lawson]

My favorite one in the book was the woman at the hairdresser who when they said, well, what do you want done today? And she said, I would like to have a wash, a cut and a blowjob.

Yeah. Yep. Or the lady who asked for a blunt cut but she messed up where the end was supposed to go and asked for a blunt. Something else.

[Amanda Doyle]

And a blunt.

[Abby Wambach]

Cunt or clit. Cunt. Oh my God, that's.

[Jenny Lawson]

She wanted a blunt cut and she asked for a blunt cut.

[Abby Wambach]

Bless her. It's the hairdresser and you know, the hairdresser is a lot of them. And I think it's because the hairdryers are going to. So just real quick, I'll tell you that my hairdresser, who I love, her name's Ashley and she's like this young, exciting whippersnapper. And she was doing my hair and she was telling me about some big plans she had for the next year. And she said, glennon, I'm gonna become an escort. And I was like, this is my moment where I might have some feelings because I'm like a 45 year old mom, but like, this is a young woman who's sex positive and she's going to be an escort. And you, Glennon Doyle, are going to celebrate this in the moment. And so I said something like, oh, okay, like, where are you going to get your clients or something? And she said, well, I'm just going to keep the same ones. And I was like, holy shit. Shit, that's a weird crossover, right? I was like, okay, so we. I'm excited for you. Like, let me know how I can support you. Whatever. So later, much later in the day, we text back and forth and I realized what she said. Jenny is. I'm gonna be an S corp. An S corp C O R P, which is a business. Which is a freaking business term. Like she's like gonna be a different name for her business or something. And so, like, not a cor. Of course she was going to have the same clients, but she wasn't going to have sex with them anyway. She was. Jenny, you are a revolution. You are a leader for all of us who just want to be close with each other in a real way. Like you want to be human together. You have this part of your book where you're talking about this art called Kintsugi and you say it's a Japanese art of fixing broken things with lacquer dusted with powdered gold to treat the repair as part of the history rather than disguising the breakage. The brokenness becomes part of the story and beauty of the piece. And Jenny, just. That is you. You just. Nothing is disguised. All of it is shown. All of it is golden. You are human, Kintsugi, and we are so grateful for you. Thank you for helping us do hard things.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, my gosh, thank you so much. And this was fantastic. And this was a hard thing that was very worthwhile. So thank you for having me on. I cannot tell you how much I actually needed this today.

[Abby Wambach]

Same.

[Jenny Lawson]

Thank you.

[Amanda Doyle]

And for the next right thing, I think everybody should just go out and share their most humiliating stories.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Do it. In honor of Jenny's belief that we also believe that one of the things we can do to draw closer to each other is share our mortifying stories. Please call and share your embarrassing mortifying stories with us. We're just so excited to hear these messages. We'll probably get together and listen to them during a slumber party, but also we'll probably play some of them during our Mortifying Moments episode, which is forthcoming.

[Amanda Doyle]

Or you can email. Yes, if you prefer that. If you're not into the voice messaging, the email is wcdhtpodmail.com so it's the first letters of We can do hard things podmail.com w c d h t.

[Abby Wambach]

P o [e-mail] or the phone number is 747-200-5307. Once again, that is 747-200-5307. Tell us the story or email. Please tell us your stories. We cannot wait. And when life gets hard, don't forget loves. You can do hard things. Talk soon. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. Us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman Nick. The show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.