← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
Okay, Pod squad. If you are feeling today like you could use just a big warm security blanket wrapped around you and just something that is going to make your heart feel full and your mind expand and make you just relax for a minute.
- [00:18]
Abby Wambach
On this earth, hands down, one of my favorite conversations we've ever had. I love these two so freaking much. Oh my God. I can't.
- [00:27]
Glennon Doyle
So one of the people today Abby describes as her favorite people on the planet. Last night at dinner she said, I think, I think he's just the best person, period, in the world. And that's how I feel about the other one, Suleika. So the people we have today are Suleika Jawad and John Batiste. I will read their bios, even though everyone knows who they are. But what you need to know first about this conversation is that they are an incredibly grounded but creative and loving couple who talk about life in the world in a way that we just need to hear more of. And today they're talking to us about art and creativity and love and how to love each other better and how to love the world better. It's a must. Listen. Suleika Jawad is the author of the New York Times best selling memoirs, the Book of Alchemy and Between Two Kingdoms. She writes the Isolation Journals, the number one literature newsletter on substack, and wrote the New York Times Life Interrupted column. A three time cancer survivor and visual artist, she appears with her husband John Batiste in the Oscar nominated documentary American Symphony.
- [01:32]
Abby Wambach
Yes, we gotta go watch that. So freaking good.
- [01:35]
Glennon Doyle
Jon Batiste is a seven time Grammy and an Academy Award winning artist whose music moves between jazz, soul, classical and pop. His ninth studio album, Big Money is out now. Audiences also know John from his Oscar winning score for his chart topping album, Beethoven Blues and the acclaimed documentary American Symphony, which celebrates his artistry, resilience and love with his wife Suleika, at the height of his creative powers, Pod Squad. I'm so happy to give you the gift of Sule and John.
- [02:07]
Abby Wambach
One of my favorite double dates ever.
- [02:16]
Glennon Doyle
We did it. Hi, John. I've never met you.
- [02:20]
John Batiste
Hello.
- [02:21]
Abby Wambach
Hi.
- [02:21]
John Batiste
How are you?
- [02:22]
Glennon Doyle
We're so good. I'm Glennon.
- [02:24]
Abby Wambach
I'm Abby. We met briefly. Oh yeah, yeah. At an event. But I'm sure you don't remember.
- [02:30]
Suleika Jawad
John remembers everyone. That's one of his many, many gifts.
- [02:33]
John Batiste
Yeah. So it's nice to be here in these boxes. On the box within a box.
- [02:41]
Glennon Doyle
You see as God intended.
- [02:43]
John Batiste
As God intended friendships to be human to human interaction.
- [02:47]
Glennon Doyle
That's right. We're Staying human, John, is what we're doing.
- [02:51]
John Batiste
We locked.
- [02:53]
Glennon Doyle
How is your morning? You guys, where are you? What's going on?
- [02:56]
John Batiste
We're in Nashville. The sun shining. We're together. You know, I just came off of a tour bus about an hour ago, and we've been moving. We've done maybe five shows in a row in the last four or five days. So now I'm here, and we're here together.
- [03:13]
Suleika Jawad
I'm so excited. I get to see John perform at the Ryman tomorrow night, which is going.
- [03:20]
John Batiste
To be the Grand Old Opry tomorrow. The rhyming was last time. No, no, no. It's the same thing. But, yeah, but, but, but, yeah. We on the road now together. I love when we get to be on the road. We did a tour. When was the tour we did together?
- [03:35]
Suleika Jawad
It was like, in April. Something we never done before.
- [03:39]
John Batiste
Ever. The best experience ever.
- [03:43]
Glennon Doyle
Why? What was it like to be on tour together?
- [03:45]
John Batiste
I love it. I'm ready to retire, doing my thing and do our thing. It's so good.
- [03:53]
Suleika Jawad
I feel like this is a hack that the two of you have unlocked. It can be scary to work with your significant other, but if you really not only love each other, but like each other, merging work worlds means that you get to be together more often.
- [04:10]
John Batiste
You just get to be together, and, you know, you get paid.
- [04:15]
Glennon Doyle
That is a nice hack.
- [04:16]
Suleika Jawad
In theory, one gets paid, theory, one gets faith.
- [04:20]
John Batiste
Ideally, I'm seeing the vision. See, Glenn and Abby, y' all got it hooked up. See, I see the vision. Come on. I understand.
- [04:28]
Glennon Doyle
I mean, you guys, we actually. It is wonderful, and we have found many wonderful things about it. But since we're talking about this, you should know that we are actually in a moment of trying to undo a lot of it, because we just figured out maybe like a month or two ago that we have gotten ourselves to the point where most of our conversations, our dynamic is about work and, like, then these weird dynamics come in that. I don't know. It's like we're controlling each other more than loving each other or something.
- [05:04]
So, yes. Awesome. And also, it's like everything else. I can't figure out what the right combination is.
- [05:12]
John Batiste
You're describing it like a third party.
- [05:16]
It's something that's there, that's not supposed to be there and is getting in the way of you being together.
- [05:24]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [05:26]
John Batiste
So, yeah, that's a very, very wise thing to share. I felt like we. We're at that first stage of it where it's not. We're Doing something that allows for us to be together in a way that allows for us to also be creative, to tell stories about how we met in all the different aspects of our life that align and help to inspire other people by doing that. So it feels like we're touring, but it also feels like we're kind of hanging out on stage. But I could imagine if you did that for. For a longer period of time, it could become an idol of sorts.
- [06:04]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [06:05]
Suleika Jawad
And it wasn't without its challenges. Yeah, we're very similar and in certain very important ways, complete opposites. So, like, I am a planner. I like to, you know, write out everything I'm going to say. I study it, I memorize it sometimes, and, you know, within that I'll do a little improv. And John prepares in his own way. But what he loves more than anything is throwing out the script. So night two of tour, I think it was in Chicago.
- [06:41]
We're supposed to be on stage in about 30 minutes. Salt shed. I'm getting my hair and makeup done and John's like, here's what didn't work last night and let's change the whole structure of what we've spent weeks and months planning. And I start to get this, like, panicked, like, wide eyed, whale eyed look. And I'm like, we can't do that. And John says, well, do you want to make it better or do you want to do what we prepared? And I completely broke down. I had a panic attack. I started sobbing. All my makeup was dripping down my face. And John was like, let's push the show by like 20 minutes. And I was like, we can't do that. I'm already a mess now. I'm worried that people are going to be mad at us because they've been waiting. And.
- [07:33]
By the time I got on stage, I was such a frazzled mess that this very strange thing happened. And I was kind of mad at John too. Like, I was mad at him for messing up our perfect plan, mad at him for, in my mind, inducing this panic. And I just kind of looked over at him and in my mind I was like, oh, you want to improvise? I'll show you improvisation. And I went completely off script. And I will say, you know, this is the kind of difficult dance of collaboration within a romantic relationship. It was probably my favorite on stage experience.
- [08:16]
And I couldn't have admitted it exactly after the show because I was still just sort of thrown by the whole thing. But I was grateful to you for pushing me there.
- [08:29]
John Batiste
Yeah, well, I know you so people, people who work together that have the chemistry in the thing, it's kind of like a relationship. It's kind of like somebody who, you know, there's an ESP and you can play something or you can say something and then they'll finish the sentence or they'll finish the chord and the rhythm will come together, something will happen. It's like boom. So like, sometimes that requires a push. And I. I don't have.
- [09:02]
Any method about improvisation. It's more about finding the connection. That's the most real, what's the realest authentic. Not any shred of fakeness, any shred of getting in the way of the signal. Just get all of the noise out of the way of the signal. So whatever we have to do to get there, I know it's gonna. Everybody's gonna be happy in the end, so. And also I got some push from this one too. It's a two way street. You got to have both. You got to have the love and honesty to know that you can carry the weight of the push and you can sustain the push. Because that's the power there. There's power in that kind of honesty because people don't see that very often. So when you show people that, that's what's really inspiring. Not the notes and stuff, that's nice, but the real thing is the inspiration.
- [10:00]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, there's something about if you could stay in that place, it might be all right. It's like there's something about the structure and sticking to the structure and me saying, but we're supposed to do it this way and hers. That's the problem.
- [10:14]
The not problem is what you just described.
- [10:17]
Abby Wambach
But I think a lot of this has to do with the origin of our, our specific arts. John, I'm a little bit more like you and you're a little bit more like Silka. Writers like a container. They like to control the sentences, their ideas, and they like this structure. I don't mean to say control, but I do think that there's a little bit of that. And I think, John, with your, your background in music, in the way that like jazz music is off the cuff and it's live and it's energy and it's your essence coming out right, and your essence comes out in a different fashion. And I'm not saying one is right or the other, because I have learned so much from you, because I am like off the cuff. That is like basically in my bio, like, I do not plan. I am myself. That is how I do it. But I also think that there is something to be said about pushing each other in, to the, in the direction of each other. And I wonder, as a cautionary tale, there might be like a, a place that you don't want to get into because we are trying to navigate how to not. Because there's part of me that wants to be too much like Glennon, and there's maybe part of Glennon that wants to be too much like me. And so how do you, how do you guys find the balance in that co collaboration to not mesh?
- [11:35]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. And I want to know how does Suleika push you, John?
- [11:38]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [11:41]
Suleika Jawad
How do I push you?
- [11:42]
John Batiste
Well, it's so funny you mentioned a form of structure and a form of creating some sort of scaffolding so that we know all of the beats and we know exactly what order the beats will come in. Now for me, I like to know, okay, this is what the essence of what we're saying is. This is the heart of it. If we say this sentence a hundred times in a row and nothing else will have conveyed the heart of the message.
- [12:19]
Glennon Doyle
That's good.
- [12:20]
John Batiste
And then everything else around that. I like to follow the spirit in the moment.
- [12:26]
And try to get to the heart of that message in all the different ways that the spirit makes available in that moment. Now that sometimes is not the best plan because Salaika will, you know, having something in the trunk and establishing a certain flow allows for the spirit to move even more freely. And you know, as someone who. I've just been leading bands since I was 15 and I've always been the one that dictates the pace and the flow and the direction. When you're on stage and you got a co band leader is another star. So you gotta, you got. There's a push. It's not a bad thing, but it's also, it's a push from what I'm used to. So you have to figure out how to create space that's not only making space because there's another person that has a viewpoint that you love, you want to share the stage with, but also because it just will make it better. And how do you find the, the alchemy of those two elements coming together and not just, okay, we have the equal proportions, but how do you make the whole greater than the sum of the parts?
- [13:36]
Abby Wambach
That's good. That's right.
- [13:40]
Glennon Doyle
Well, let us know.
- [13:46]
Any more tricks you have. It's interesting because I feel like you all are always.
- [13:54]
It feels like you all are circling around a lot of things that we're always circling around. Okay, so, like, you know, Solelyka, you and I have been trying to figure out how to be artists and capitalists for a while at the same time. Like, how do you do art and then promote the art and keep your soul and all of that. I wanted to ask you guys, I. We were on this lake vacation recently and with the family and the kids took a picture of me. Abby threw two lines to me on the dock. So I was holding two lines? Yeah, so I was holding two lines like this. They were pulling me in opposite directions and it was ridiculous. I felt like I was gonna fall in. And the kids took a picture of me. And then I looked at the picture and my first thought was, oh, here I am trying to serve God and money. This is my.
- [14:39]
That is the caption of this. So my question to you all is, how? Like, when you put out big money, John, at first, before I heard it, I was like. I felt betrayed. I was like, what? Then I was like, thank God.
- [14:57]
Can you talk to us about how you all, when you're in your home and away from the world, talk about, like, what is enough and how does not enoughness ruin every. Like, what are your talks around art and money and how to stay true to your art and also get it to people?
- [15:18]
Suleika Jawad
It's been an ongoing conversation since day one. And you know, in the early days, it was more tied to, like, how do we pay our bills? Which in some ways makes things a lot easier.
- [15:39]
Because enough is quite literal in that context. Like, how do we make enough to pay our rent, to pay our phone bills, to do the work that we really want to do that may or may not be profitable? I think that's the double edged sword of success and the feeling of the goalposts constantly moving. I think we're both people who, from the time that we were little, there is no such thing as enough in terms of our creative growth. We're always pushing ourselves. We're always asking ourselves the question, like, how do we make this better? It's a challenge, and it's something that we're navigating. It's something that you explored quite literally in the making of Big Money.
- [16:27]
Glennon Doyle
And.
- [16:29]
Suleika Jawad
I feel these sort of dual and dueling impulses to want to build something and to make it as big and beautiful as it can be. And then we talk a lot about retirement. We want to shut the whole machine down. We want to hibernate. We want to kind of tuck into ourselves and not have to participate in that way. And so I don't know the answer to that question. I think it's a work in progress. It's something we're constantly reassessing.
- [17:08]
And that we.
- [17:09]
John Batiste
Yeah.
- [17:11]
Yeah, you. Constantly at war with the monster that's within. We all have one that's within. The best way to deal with it is to stare it in the eye and to let it know its place. You got to look at it. Because the thing is, if you don't look at it, it's going to creep up behind you and get closer and closer and then pretty soon it'll be right up on you. Take over. We are constantly warring with our. Our nature. So you, you have to think about the aspect of that, not just from a career perspective, but from a spiritual one. And then you have to think about, well, what is the work that only I can do? What's the work in the world that only I can do? And then let me do that to the best of my ability. And what you'll see is there's a resonance in that that makes whatever success or lack thereof in terms of the worldly standard that comes with that worth it. So then there's a level of fulfillment within while you balance this fight with the monster. And then from there, I think it's a question of how much do you give? You know, biblical principles, 10%. But what. What is giving? How do you define that? And that's really the thing. And as you grow and as the goal posts move and as things expand and your, your. Your vision of yourself and what you can contribute to the world, to the community that you're part of, to society, all of that expands. Then how you give changes. So it's like a constant.
- [18:51]
You got to constantly grapple with it. And then the systems of the world and the way that things are built are impossibly corrupt.
- [19:00]
So even in the context of a thing that you're doing that you have the greatest of intention of being a part of, there's something or someone or someplace that it hurts.
- [19:12]
Glennon Doyle
Mm.
- [19:13]
John Batiste
It. Everything in every single vertical of society is rooted in some level of impurity. So you have to find a way to.
- [19:26]
Orient yourself, find equilibrium within all of that. And that's a really. It's a really conscious effort. You have to be very sober minded and you have to continuously push forward in a way where you understand.
- [19:42]
Exactly where you're standing at every moment. And that's the key. It's hard, but I mean, that's as much as we figured out so far.
- [19:51]
Suleika Jawad
So in your metaphor, what is the beast?
- [19:54]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [19:55]
Suleika Jawad
Ambition.
- [19:55]
John Batiste
I mean, the beast is different for different people. Everybody has one, though.
- [20:03]
Don't fool yourself and think you don't have one.
- [20:05]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [20:07]
Suleika Jawad
I'm reminded a friend of ours.
- [20:13]
Is on the dating apps and looking for a partner and was considering potentially pursuing something with an individual she met on the apps. And John said, what is his relationship to his beast? And it was such an interesting question because, you know, some people allow their beast to devour them, other people pretend the beast isn't there.
- [20:43]
Glennon Doyle
And.
- [20:43]
Suleika Jawad
And it's something I've been reflecting upon.
- [20:47]
John Batiste
A lot and what you've been thinking about that boo.
- [20:52]
Talk about, huh?
- [20:53]
Suleika Jawad
I think my beast is a little bit like a chimera. Like it has, like, multiple heads. But, you know, ambition is one of those things that I think, especially for men, is prized and valued. As a woman, it can be a little trickier.
- [21:14]
I like ambition. It's the thing that drives me. It's the thing that makes me push through my own resistance. But one of the heads that sprouts from. From my ambition beast is. Is that.
- [21:32]
That. That kind of perfectionistic tendency that when taken to an extreme, can feel like a kind of prison. And, you know, Glenn, to your earlier point, it's like, yeah, we're writers. We love our words. We want to say things just the way we want to say them. And so in an on stage context, like, sometimes that can be limiting because I'm so attached to the words that I wrote in my preparation or in my script that I miss the moment. I miss the opportunity to feel the energy of the crowd and to have that really improvisational magic that can only happen when you're actually listening and you're not, like reading off of a teleprompter in your mind.
- [22:17]
Other times, though, it prevents me from experimenting and taking risks. And I want to be good so badly.
- [22:31]
That I don't allow myself the freedom to explore and mess up and.
- [22:41]
And to open myself up to a kind of uncertainty that feels scary, but that when I lean into it, quickly shifts from like a fear of what I don't know to a sense of awe and excitement at the mystery of what's possible.
- [23:00]
Abby Wambach
Interesting.
- [23:04]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. Did you write that beforehand and just read?
- [23:07]
Suleika Jawad
No, I didn't.
- [23:08]
Glennon Doyle
Wow.
- [23:10]
Abby Wambach
See, but I think that what you both are saying is so true in that the beast or the monster, however you want to categorize it, lives with, within us. And so many people, and myself included, at certain times in my life, I think that my identity is that, but I don't know that it's Maladaptive. I don't know that it's working not in my best interest in terms of my, like, soul's best, highest, best interest. And so I don't know. What do you think the beast is for you?
- [23:43]
Glennon Doyle
Well, it's interesting because everyone says ambition, but ambition is just an empty word. It's like, ambition for what? Is the question? Because ambition for what? Like, if we define what we're ambitious about in a way that is true to us. I mean, I was listening to an interview that you did, actually. We made our entire family watch it, John. And you, I think, quoted Monk, and you said, genius is the one who sounds most like himself.
- [24:13]
So if ambition is aligned with that for a creative, that my ambition is to make my life and my art and my relationship most myself, then unbridled ambition might not be dangerous. But if ambition is tied to relevance and the metrics that the world does and being perceived a certain way, and it is a monster. So like Suleika, when you say ambition, what do you mean? What are you ambitious for?
- [24:44]
Suleika Jawad
So I think, you know, we started this by talking about what's enough. And I think where ambition can dip into dangerous territory when it's an unconsidered yearning for more. But you're not defining what more is. It's just like more and more, more.
- [25:06]
John Batiste
And more and more.
- [25:07]
Suleika Jawad
And you start to just feel like this kind of like gluttonous.
- [25:15]
Appetite. But there's no. You haven't identified what more is and.
- [25:21]
What'S meaningful to you.
- [25:26]
About what you want more of.
- [25:28]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [25:29]
Suleika Jawad
And so when I find myself in this kind of cycle of just, I'm adding things, I'm doing things, and I don't even really know why or if I'm enjoying them. That's where it starts to get tricky.
- [25:43]
Glennon Doyle
And John, what are you ambitious for? And what is your monster, your beast?
- [25:48]
John Batiste
Huh? Well, see.
- [25:51]
I want to be great. And that requires you to have a certain focus.
- [25:59]
And I feel like that focus can be wonderful if it's not misaligned with your quiet time with God. If you start to make that become your God that you worship, then your. Your talent becomes an idol and your gift that you've been given to cultivate, to work on, to share, becomes a form of self indulgence. Even if it's helping people. Now that's the thing right there.
- [26:37]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [26:39]
John Batiste
Even if it's helping people.
- [26:43]
My belief is we're not here just to do the thing that we've been made to do. We're here to be on a spiritual journey with the Creator. I love that the Creator creates and created us in his image. And it's a beautiful image. It's an image of creation, of movement, of spontaneity. There's also.
- [27:06]
This vision of people, and everybody's beautiful and everybody has their own divine spark and there's a light within them and you could lose track of it, but you can never, ever fully lose it. So everybody you see, everybody, you're supposed to see all of this love and energy that's coming from these people. And that is not work. That's not head down. That's a way of life. That's a form of existence. And you need quiet time and you need time to reflect on all of the wonders of. Of what that is and be in communion. So for me, that's the big thing. The pursuit of some imagined level of achievement in a pantheon that's also equally imagined. To create a legacy for what?
- [28:00]
Glennon Doyle
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Abby Wambach
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- [32:31]
Glennon Doyle
Because of this state of the world.
- [32:35]
I have not been doing very well lately, just in general, so leave it at that. But I was talking to a friend, Brandy, my friend Brandi Carlisle, who was in the middle of finishing her album and doing she's the Best, and she was doing a little bit better mentally than I was. And we were talking about it and she said, have you been writing? And I said, no, I've been activating and organizing. And she said, I just don't think that you're obsessed enough with anything right now.
- [33:04]
John Batiste
Huh?
- [33:05]
Glennon Doyle
And I just blew it off. I was like, okay, whatever. And then that night in bed, I was like. And so my question is, you two deal with hard things all the time, okay? Like in your personal lives, in the world, you are not bypassers of pain. How is art connected to anxiety? Does it help you? Do you have to be obsessed with something to survive?
- [33:27]
Abby Wambach
And also, is anxiety a precursor to action?
- [33:31]
John Batiste
You want me to. You, you go.
- [33:32]
Suleika Jawad
You go. I'll go.
- [33:34]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [33:34]
John Batiste
Okay. You want me to go for okay.
- [33:38]
Okay. At No. I think everything beautiful has to come from some level of tension.
- [33:50]
Joy comes from pain.
- [33:53]
There's never a scenario where you have.
- [33:58]
An expression of a person that doesn't come without some sort of journey or some sort of epiphany or realization that comes from being in opaque gray darkness. The essence of.
- [34:20]
Creative expression is catharsis. It's release. It's this moment that is a shining beacon when you are lost. And now I want to share it on stages and on the rooftop. I want to go. So.
- [34:40]
Anxiety is a part of the equation, not necessarily to creation, but it's a part of the human experience that leads to the impulse to create.
- [34:54]
Or uncertainty rather. And I believe that. I believe you have to have to.
- [35:01]
It's kind of what we're talking about, facing the beast.
- [35:06]
You have to have an element of.
- [35:11]
Darkness within the context of you shining the light.
- [35:16]
Glennon Doyle
What about you, Sue?
- [35:18]
Suleika Jawad
I'm forgetting who said this, but someone said this. These are not my words said that a mosaic is a conversation between what's broken. And so it's not so much that for me.
- [35:32]
The creative impulse necessarily arises from pain. Like, I think of, like most children who have this unbridled connection to their creativity. They're playing make believe, they're tapping into their imaginations. They're making gloriously messy finger paintings. It's not because they're like a brooding, self destructive artist who then feels the impulse to make the masterpiece. But I. I like. And it really resonates with me what you said about it. Stemming from tension. And tension for me can be a question that I find myself circling around. It can be an attempt to.
- [36:18]
Figure out how to put together a mosaic of broken pieces, or at least to understand how they're in conversation with each other. And, you know, I think the challenging thing about creativity as we get older is it can be both a salve to anxiety and a source of anxiety in and of itself. And so at some point, that pilot light of self consciousness ignites as we get older and we start to sort ourselves into categories like, I'm a bad artist, I'm a good artist, the arts are not for me, whatever it is. And so I think we.
- [37:04]
Both very much believe that everyone is deeply creative and more than that, that there's great value in cultivating a creative practice. And so, once again, where things get tricky for me is when you enter, you know, trying to make a living from your creative work into the equation. So if I'm by myself and I'm journaling or I'm just painting for myself, whatever it might be, that is a source of joy. It's an antidote to whatever is plaguing me. The second I try to imagine anyone, let alone, you know, a faceless public.
- [37:52]
Consuming that creative work, that's where things start to shift. I start to wonder, is this good? Is this interesting? Will this be criticized? Or worst of all, will this be entirely ignored, whatever it is? And that gives me a great deal of anxiety.
- [38:14]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [38:16]
John Batiste
You know, I don't think that artists until.
- [38:21]
The modern age, there's not really been a precedent for the way that art is taking the place, place as a commodity in society.
- [38:32]
So I don't really think that the relationship to creating similar to like when you think about a child, they're trying to make sense of the world. There's a natural tension to the way that they are and the way that the world is. And their impulse is to be a certain way, which over time, as you say, that pilot light of self consciousness, they learn to not be that way, or hopefully they retain it. But I think that's the best example, which is it's not tied to an audience or a profit. It's only because of the invention of these media delivery systems, the phonograph record and RCA Victor and then the CD and streaming and TV and all of the ways of the satellite being able to broadcast the thing. But for centuries, artists in society were the ones who. They knew literature and they had a certain wisdom. And they were the griots and the madrigals and the troubadours and the toast tellers, and they had the oral tradition, and they would pass it on since the first drum, and the writers and the scribes would create the history and the mythology of a place and a people and pass it on. And it was a way. It was a part of the fabric of everyday life. And it was music and writing and painting, and it became a part of how people gather in community.
- [40:01]
And that's when it actually had, I believe, the deepest meaning that we've gotten away from. And the things that we resonate with, most of the things that have that meaning that are also entertaining. But these things are much more than entertainment. It's a form of our communal gathering and spiritual practice. And if we look at them like that, I think that makes it a lot easier. Now it's harder because we're in this system, again, that's impossibly corrupt. But the aspect of seeing it for what it is helps me a lot. And children are a great, great example of that because, you know, they don't know yet. And the tension with them is not as much anxiety as it is, wow, this is my nature. And people are trying to box me in.
- [40:54]
And their nature is the truest to the source of creativity itself.
- [41:00]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. And there just something about being the subject of the artist and not switching into.
- [41:09]
Perceiving yourself like that is whatever. My beast is something about that. Because sometimes when I'm saying to Abby, I just don't know if I'm doing enough, if I'm being good enough, if I'm giving enough. I don't think that's what I mean, because I know I am. I think what I mean is I don't know if I'm being perceived as giving enough, being good enough, being whatever, which is gross to admit, but I think that's what I mean. Am I being perceived.
- [41:37]
Ad/Promo Voice
Perceived?
- [41:38]
Glennon Doyle
It's not about all about output. It's about how I'm being perceived. And that's what an artist being a part of this modern world, what is added to it. Right.
- [41:50]
John Batiste
When did that start for you? When did you start to feel the weight of perception?
- [41:57]
Glennon Doyle
I mean, probably really young, like, as a young girl, and just noticing that the way people perceived me was tied to my power to move in the.
- [42:09]
Suleika Jawad
World, or sometimes tied to a withdrawal of power or withdrawal of validation. I mean, I. I can pinpoint for me, like, an exact moment where my relationship to creativity changed. And like, the phrase we use between the two of us is creative injury. And so, like, eighth grade, I had Always loved to write. I was doing it in my journal and I had this wonderful English teacher who invited us as an extra credit project to write a short story. And I was so excited. I was like, oh yes, this is my moment where I'm going to move beyond the journal and I'm going to do a really good job. And so I spent all of spring break filling up an entire yellow legal pad with a novella. It was like 70 pages or however many pages are in a legal pad. And I handed this thing in and the next week everyone got their assignments back except me. And I was thinking to myself, oh, I did such a good job that my teacher is waiting to have a one on one that is expensive publication, like possibly a literary agent, maybe a parade, I don't know. And oh my God. Later that day I got summoned to the school psychologist's office and they were holding my yellow legal pad with my story on it to discuss some of the concerning themes in my story. So I was on a real reading journey in 8th grade grade and had been heavily drawing upon some of my most recent inspiration. I had just read Lolita's Nabokov and a Paul Holes novel set in Morocco. So my novella as 8th graders do. As 8th graders do. My novella featured a protagonist who was a 13 year old.
- [44:12]
Sex worker sat in an opium den in Tangiers.
- [44:21]
Glennon Doyle
You're so awesome.
- [44:22]
Suleika Jawad
It's funny to me now, but I was so horrified. And the worst part was the teacher never said a word to me about it. And I felt like I had done a bad thing. I felt humiliated. I was honestly grateful that she didn't tell my parents about it. But it took me me.
- [44:43]
Until the age of 22 to ever show my writing to anybody again.
- [44:48]
Glennon Doyle
Wow.
- [44:50]
Suleika Jawad
And so I think, you know, we all have these creative injuries.
- [44:56]
At some point in childhood or adolescence or adulthood where you lose that pure connection to your creativity where you become conscious of the perception of others. And then the work becomes like trying to get back to that free flowing space. And so for me, like I write all of my first drafts in my journal because I have to trick myself into thinking this is the writing that doesn't count. It's the writing just for me. The second I open a word doc, I get scared, I freeze up. It's like the blinking curse is just like a warning sign of all the possible pitfalls and dangers that can befall me. And I can't write anything true. I start to self edit before I've even figured out what I'm even saying.
- [45:54]
Glennon Doyle
Me too. I tell Abby, I'm like, I think this is why Jesus only wrote in the sand. Like, I can't write things that will be stuck forever. That's terrifying to me suddenly.
- [46:05]
Suleika Jawad
Totally.
- [46:06]
Glennon Doyle
Do you have. Did you, do you remember any creative injury, John, or did you skip over that part?
- [46:11]
John Batiste
Oh, no, I had a wealth of.
- [46:16]
That. A season.
- [46:19]
I think. I think about my upbringing and it's, it's so funny because there's a whole period of time that didn't feel particularly creative and seemed pretty much like.
- [46:37]
A.
- [46:40]
Purgatory. There's a lot of neighborhood bullies and a lot of antics, a lot of different energy. You know, a very classic American upbringing in a suburb outside of New Orleans. Very provincial kennel, Louisiana. We got a railroad track separating it. And you know where you got a railroad track in a river. There's a certain mythology to that.
- [47:06]
Suleika Jawad
But you did have some significant creative injuries.
- [47:11]
John Batiste
Oh yeah. After that.
- [47:12]
Suleika Jawad
After that. And like John always says to me, you have to get your rejection in. And so rejection was a really big part of those early years and figuring out how, in spite of being perceived in various ways.
- [47:37]
What you do with that injury. John has his own school psychologist story, bizarrely enough.
- [47:43]
John Batiste
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Don't we all?
- [47:47]
Glennon Doyle
Mm, yeah. And it really is. People always say the one liners about rejection and all that, and it kind of can feel like bullshit, except that it's the truest thing, that if you are so fearful, like the number one fear is like public shaming, right? It's like any sort of someone's gonna tell me I'm not good enough. So the best thing that can happen to you is that early on and then you survive it because then you're not equating it with death anymore.
- [48:17]
Abby Wambach
But I also think that it's about. Because I think that that happened to me. I had a guidance counselor that she said to me, abby, you're never gonna make it playing soccer. She literally said that. Like, you're never gonna play soccer. Like, you're never gonna be able to make money play soccer. So you need to, like, work harder on your studies. I mean, she had a point. But I think that because the way that our constitutions are made up and the way that these crafts and these gifts sit with inside us, those things, whether it be a counselor or somebody saying like, this isn't. This isn't right with your novella, like.
- [48:59]
It. That kind of creates the trajectory of like, oh, thank you. Like, and we don't know this for very much later until we can actually prove it to ourselves that we, in fact are writers or musicians or athletes. And so there's a part of me that, though it probably would have been less painful, I think that there. That element is almost like that creative injury is almost part of the impulse that. That the way we are wired pushes us in the direction of either proving that one rejection wrong.
- [49:34]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, it's the tension he was talking about. It creates, I love it, creation.
- [49:38]
Suleika Jawad
You know, it's interesting you said proving it wrong because I think you're someone who responds to a creative injury, especially if it's externally inflicted, by being like, watch, you'll see. And it's like, I'm someone who isn't always able to do that. I'm someone who's like, oh, you saw something about me that I didn't fully clock. And shame on me for not seeing that. Interesting. I immediately assume. My reflex is to assume that whatever that outward perception is is truer than my own perception. I have to actively work at reorient myself to rejection or to creative injury. And so I'm so curious, John, for you, where that comes from. Because you had a lot of people from the outside telling you what you're doing is wrong or what you're doing is bad or what.
- [50:37]
John Batiste
Whatever it is.
- [50:40]
I don't know where it came from in the early days other than just a drive in intuition and a sense of.
- [50:50]
Knowing. That's the kind of thing we were talking about earlier where you feel this real compulsion to be and express authentically. And it doesn't matter if there's aspects of rejection or aspects of tension involved with it. It's just your truest self. And that's ultimately the best that you can do. And I guess I attribute that to having great mentors and great parents to instill a sense of.
- [51:29]
Values in that way. But also, I think about the history of the planet Earth. And the greatest souls have been the most rejected it.
- [51:41]
So I think the process of it I've gone through now is like, I can articulate. It is. First I'd like to examine what is said to a degree, whatever it is, because you always want to have a sense of being able to be objective. And that's part of a foundation of humility within. You have that. But then you gotta look, well, most of the things that.
- [52:13]
I care about are rejected by the world. So. And the people who can't count the most, what do they think? What do they say? And then ultimately that inner knowing, you just gotta know.
- [52:31]
And let that drive you. Because that's the one. Because if you're not doing it for that, everything else is external.
- [52:38]
Glennon Doyle
That's right. What are the things that you care about the most that the world rejects?
- [52:44]
John Batiste
Well, I mean, look at. Look around.
- [52:49]
I mean.
- [52:52]
Look around. That's what the album is.
- [52:56]
Talking about. It's just the tip of the iceberg of talking about. Just look at the aspects of what's happening. We've.
- [53:06]
We've stretched things beyond the natural limitation in almost every category, and it's created this epidemic of loneliness and isolation. Now, we're not in a time where everything is dark, and I don't want to be doomed and gloomy, but if you look at the aspect of things that we've achieved, and you measure that against the level of spiritual and moral decay, it's. It's unfathomable. And what's the culprit? Mammon money. Big money. You look at what. What's driving everybody? What's driving. What's our ultimate value system? What's the thing that underlines everything? And everybody who was a part of this system has to deal with the ramifications of that. So I just feel like the purity of what we could be and who we are as souls on this Earth, this planet Earth, our common home, which has been stretched beyond its natural limitation in pursuit of what? I mean, I don't want to soapbox y', all, but that's just kind of, you know, look around.
- [54:20]
But we here, we still got some joy warriors out here pushing, shaking.
- [54:27]
Suleika Jawad
But even in a smaller level, like I think of jazz music, which in this day and age is.
- [54:36]
John Batiste
Yeah.
- [54:38]
Suleika Jawad
Something that, like a guidance counsel counselor, as your guidance counselor did, it's probably not likely to advise you to pursue as a career path that's going to pay the bill. Right.
- [54:53]
John Batiste
No, no, listen, you got to do it because you love it.
- [54:58]
Glennon Doyle
But that's interesting because it starts there. That's connected. It's like if the thing that we're all going towards is money in the big money, then you're being advised as a nine year old to give up the thing that expresses you because it won't ultimately serve this thing that we're all guiding everybody towards. So that's all connected.
- [55:20]
John Batiste
Ooh, you laying it out, Glenn.
- [55:24]
Go ahead, give my sermon, huh?
- [55:27]
Glennon Doyle
Like, if ambition were tied to something else. If ambition were tied to. Like every adult around you is trying to figure out who you are at your essence, and then figure out how to guide you on a path that will allow you to be that forever. And then we figured out because even the term like earn a living is so insane. Like, oh my God, We've, we accept that. We accept that we have to earn our right to exist. And it's, it's a whole paradigm that would change how we served children, I think, if we changed what we're ambitious. Ambitious for.
- [56:01]
Abby Wambach
Well, and I also think it's, it's not allowing us to fully develop our human essence because it's being, it's not being cultivated in us throughout our younger adolescence and younger years. It's, you're told, you need to go do this, you need to go do that, and you need to train and become coder and, and get into computer science because that's the future and that's the. Where all the jobs and the money are. But then you're getting coders who aren't completely developed or evolved. And so even the evolution of the way that tech and science, it's. We're not nobody's their full selves because it's being, it's not being cultivated in us as children. And so you show up to, to be our authentic self, and you don't even know what the hell that means.
- [56:47]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [56:48]
Abby Wambach
You're like, I know how to code.
- [56:49]
Suleika Jawad
Our beloved.
- [56:53]
Friendless gives what she calls her purpose talk, which I'm sure we've all heard, which is, you know, this, this sort of toxic messaging that we receive from the time we're very, very young, that you have to find your singular purpose, you have to master that purpose, then you have to monetize it and become the best at the world in it. And it's so much pressure. And she, you know, I think of her every day. She offers like such a gentler corrective, which instead of being fixated on identifying a passion or a purpose.
- [57:36]
Just following the threads of your curiosity and, you know, I think.
- [57:45]
So many people suffer from feeling like they haven't found a purpose or a passion. And more than that, they haven't earned a living by monetizing that sense of purpose or passion. And I think we do a great disservice not just to children, but to our ongoing possibilities of changing our minds about what we're curious about, of being able to pursue something because you're obsessed with it, because it's fun, without necessarily having to figure out how to translate that into something that pays your bills.
- [58:34]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [58:36]
Glennon Doyle
That's why I feel sad for you, Suleika, that your painting is so good.
- [58:39]
Abby Wambach
I know.
- [58:39]
Glennon Doyle
I mean, that's what I'm thinking about when I'm. I'm like, oh, no, she's so good at this. What are you gonna do? Because I am protected from my painting ever being monetized.
- [58:51]
Abby Wambach
No, that's not true.
- [58:52]
Suleika Jawad
I agree. First in line to buy a painting.
- [58:55]
Glennon Doyle
Okay, well, you. You would.
- [58:56]
Suleika Jawad
That one. I want the one right behind you.
- [58:59]
Glennon Doyle
I'll send it to you. And now it's time for our ads.
- [59:06]
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Glennon Doyle
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Abby Wambach
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- [62:54]
Glennon Doyle
You guys, I have to know this personally, I have two more questions. I know you guys are so busy, but number one, I want to know what your last argument was about and why. That's my favorite thing is figuring out what people argue about. And then I also want to know what each of your.
- [63:10]
I don't even know what the words are. Relationship to orientation towards spirituality and God. Two completely different things.
- [63:18]
John Batiste
Yeah, that's nice.
- [63:22]
I love we talking about all of these major themes. Abundance out of order is gluttony. And that's the deep world we in. I think when we.
- [63:34]
When we.
- [63:37]
Think about the second question, you mean what do we believe or what will we.
- [63:45]
Glennon Doyle
Even separately, like, how do you. How is your relationship to God separate? Like when you talk about how to know where. What's real creativity and how you're able to keep going even when the world is rejecting. What I'm thinking in my head is, okay, he must have a real daily practice with God. Because the people that I know who are in daily practice with God, it's like, you know when you're painting and you put the. The gesso, whatever on, it's like it protects you. It like protects the canvas from all the other shit. You know what I mean? So when I'm not in that, I'm way more susceptible to what the world thinks of me.
- [64:29]
John Batiste
Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Yeah. I'm Christian. I believe that we are in a broken world. So that is helping to understand and also have empathy for the brokenness of this whole system. This whole aspect of our time on earth is to figure out how do we shine our light and point to the source of all things. For me, when I think about Jesus Christ and what that really.
- [65:09]
The message of the gospel is that the world is broken, but there's hope. And if you think about hope.
- [65:19]
It'S sometimes hard to have a heart to see. So that's the idea of faith, and then that's the practice. How do you instill faith even in times when you don't see a hope, when you don't have a vision of the best in people or the best.
- [65:37]
In the systems of the world? And you're trying to move through the world and you're trying to be light and you're trying to be the best version of yourself and to raise your gifts to their highest divine potential and order.
- [65:55]
It definitely is helpful for me, and I think that.
- [66:01]
It'S a way of living that.
- [66:06]
Has in many facets been corrupted by people. So when you see the corruption of it in different ways, that's also a challenge against it. But then the truest and most, most pure essence of it is in the word of God. So I try to connect to that and define that through every single action, every single moment, every motivation. In a nutshell. It's how you live. Yeah, yeah, it's how you live. There's a way to live that's Christian. Like, there's the fruits of the spirit, there's aspects of understanding that you have for the origin of all things, the state of humanity and how you treat people, how you exist, that can point people in a direction of the divine. That's what I mean. There's. There's a lot more to that. And it's. It's a journey and there's a. There's so much that can be said about that, about this one. But it's. It's how you live. You can profess something and not live it.
- [67:21]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, that's like when she's the opposite of when Gandhi said, it's we love your Jesus. Your Christians just aren't any weak. I don't see Jesus in your Christians. And Suleika is like the flip of that.
- [67:34]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [67:36]
Glennon Doyle
You guys are so cool.
- [67:38]
Suleika Jawad
Yeah, you two are so cool. I said to Glennon, I want a non hologram double date. Okay, but can we flip the question on YouTube?
- [67:49]
John Batiste
Yeah, that's what? I was curious about that.
- [67:53]
Glennon Doyle
Which one? Which one?
- [67:55]
Abby Wambach
Our most fight. Recent fight or our. A relationship to religion or our idea of God?
- [68:03]
Glennon Doyle
Both. Both. Okay, well, we got in a huge fight last night, right?
- [68:09]
Abby Wambach
I wouldn't say it was a huge fight.
- [68:11]
Glennon Doyle
It wasn't.
- [68:13]
Abby Wambach
Way to dust up.
- [68:14]
Glennon Doyle
We just got in a little verbal conundrum. And Abby, who is much more good at being earnest and careful than I am because I tend to shut down and get.
- [68:28]
Defensive, walked us through it like she was a therapist. And we slowed it down and found the fear inside of each of us. It was like the most lesbian situation.
- [68:40]
Abby Wambach
We were doing some real good parts work.
- [68:42]
Glennon Doyle
We were doing some good parts work. Yeah. So we are working on when there is conflict. Not mostly me not shutting down and hiding and protecting myself. It is very hard for me to stay open and soft when someone has pointed out something in me that I don't. Like. Suleika. It's a version of when the world says mean things, and I'm like, okay, you're right. And I'm just gonna shut down. As opposed to some. The inherent, like, worth that some people have that they're like, I can step into this conflict and survive. I can keep going and create and survive. I tend to be more of like a snail who just goes back into the shop.
- [69:24]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. And the story you have is that you're bad or that you're not good.
- [69:28]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [69:28]
Abby Wambach
And then the way that you respond is in protection of that or for the. For the fear of that. And so I think that. I think that having these kind of. Because over time, and this is the way you guys know this in marriage and relationship, you start to know the other person so well that the way that you can go into conflict, you start to. You start to go through the perspective of their perception and what they. What they're going through. And so then that changes the. The way that you would do it. And sometimes that's actually not good because it's allowing them to keep hiding or for me to not say the thing that I need to say in the moment when, you know.
- [70:10]
Glennon Doyle
Yes. And what we're working on, you guys, that we figured out last night, is I think that the meanest thing a couple can do to each other is. So here we do this thing where I'm saying something that's, like, pretty. I'm saying words that are kind, but my energy is so judgmental, and I am judging the shit out of you, but I know how to say the right word, so this can't be Proven in a court of law. Okay. Abby is reading my energy and is like, wtf? Why are you being that way? What we're trying to avoid at all costs is going into. That's not what I was feeling. That's not what I was thinking. You can't prove it. I said the right words and, like, gaslighting the other one. Do you know what I mean? How you're like, I reading you. I know that's what you're thinking. And so we have to admit that energy to each other if we get. If we're going to get to the kernel of the thing.
- [71:04]
Suleika Jawad
It's the way in which. When you've done a lot of therapy, the same way, you can speak medical ease or legalese. You can speak therapy.
- [71:10]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [71:11]
Suleika Jawad
And you can say things unimpeachably, but the unprocessed, untransformed feelings are still. Yeah. Behind those words, we, you know, we've devised a shorthand. We have a code word. Our code word is lunch meat. And it's for situations when, like, we're in our feelings, we're tempted to shut down, to withdraw, because maybe we're feeling hurt or, you know, one of us is traveling and we haven't responded to a phone call. Instead of doing the thing, I think that so many of us do when we perceive.
- [71:57]
The other person as. When the. When you. When you're feeling hurt as to. Yeah. To get into your feelings, to be passive aggressive, to lash out, whatever it is, we just say lunch meat, which is the cue that what we need to do is to double down on expressing our love to each other. And when we do that, then, you know, the rest of the argument feels less like an argument and more like an actual conversation.
- [72:31]
Abby Wambach
So good. I'm gonna steal it.
- [72:34]
Glennon Doyle
Last night, Abby said, can we have a safe. A safe word? He called it a safe word. This was not during sex. It was during the argument. And she. And I was like, no, that's. So now we will be doing that.
- [72:45]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [72:45]
Glennon Doyle
Okay. We will make one after this episode. We are so grateful for you. We. Yesterday, which was. I've never heard Abby say in. In her life. She was sitting there reading something about you guys, and she goes, I have a crush on John. And I was like, that Abby Wambach is the best friendship crush I've ever heard you say friendship crush. She said, no, you said a personality.
- [73:06]
Abby Wambach
Personality crush.
- [73:07]
Glennon Doyle
And I said, I have a personality crush on Suleika.
- [73:10]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [73:12]
Glennon Doyle
So you guys are our personality crushes. And we adore you. And please, next time. Can we please just have a couch time with no cameras? Not that it will matter if it's not monetized, but I think we should try it anyway.
- [73:25]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, I know you got your. You both are tired and you want to spend your time together, and so I just wanted to say I appreciate you choosing to spend this time here with us in these boxes within the boxes. And let's do this in live in real life at some point.
- [73:40]
Glennon Doyle
We love you both.
- [73:41]
Abby Wambach
Really love you guys.
- [73:42]
Suleika Jawad
The personality crushes are mutual. We love you both. We look forward to our couch double date.
- [73:52]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, yeah.
- [73:52]
John Batiste
Come on, couch.
- [73:57]
Abby Wambach
All right, Pod Squad, we'll see you next time.
- [74:00]
Glennon Doyle
We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.