Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Host: Glennon Doyle (Treat Media), Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Katie Gavin (singer, songwriter, member of MUNA)
Date: October 9, 2025

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Overview

This episode features musician and activist Katie Gavin—of MUNA and more recently, solo artist—whose work has profoundly impacted the hosts and their family. Through a conversation full of laughter, honesty, vulnerability, and deep insight, Katie, Glennon, Abby, Amanda, and the crew delve into themes of desire, creativity, recovery, intergenerational healing, and community. Together, they explore how to know what you want—how to listen, bravely, to that kernel of desire within, and how to honor and evolve the batons we inherit from our families and cultures.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Desire and Agency

• Katie and the hosts reflect on the challenges many face in identifying what they want, and the guilt or shame that can inhibit desire.
• Katie on finding desire:
  • “When I look back, I was not a person who could identify what I want or… was in touch with my gut instincts at all. Having MUNA made me accountable.” [29:07]
• Glennon on learning by contrast:
  • “Maybe identifying desire is a lot like… [being] a sculptor… all they do is they take a rock and then they cut out what isn’t the sculpture.” [30:21]
• They discuss how desire can often be discovered through trial, error, and listening for the “not that” moments as much as the “yes.”

2. Recovery, Transformation, and Trust

• Katie opens up about her journey in sobriety, recovery, and the slow, sometimes frustrating process of growth.
  • “I really underestimated what can change in eight years. If you plant a seed and you can wait, it’s crazy what can happen.” [62:11]
• Recovery is linked with learning to trust oneself again—gradually developing the ability to know and act on what you want, versus seeking external validation or safety.

3. Generational Healing—“The Baton”

• Katie’s moving song “The Baton” becomes a vessel for discussing generational trauma, healing, pride, and independence, especially among the women in her family.
• Emotional reactions erupt as Katie hears Tish (Glennon’s daughter) perform the song:
  • "It's really crazy when you're actually in the presence of multiple generations of women. It just makes me be like, I love my mom." [47:00]
• They discuss the paradox of striving to be more for each other than is possible, acknowledging both gratitude and limitations of generational inheritance:
  • “My mom is really fiercely independent… But it’s because I am the same as you.” [54:30]

4. Expression, Gender, and Femme Dom

• A playful but significant segment unpacks what it means to be “femme dom”—a phrase Katie uses to describe Glennon’s energy.
  • “To me, femme dom means…I have a strong feminine energy that doesn’t take away from my queerness… The dom part… is just like separating the idea of someone who is feminine needing to take a more passive role in things.” [19:48]
• They also discuss the privileges and challenges that come with different gender presentations in queer spaces, and how that impacts safety and advocacy.

5. Community, Individuality, and Collaboration

• Katie details the delicate balance between collaborative creation and solo expression—how it felt to step away from MUNA to make her solo record, and how her bandmates responded with support.
  • “We all have to take the risk of leaving and growing individually… so that the relationship can stay alive.” [37:59]
• Her openness inspires a reflection on the courage needed to change within families/communities without losing those connections.

6. Activism, Enough-ness, and Resource Redistribution

• Katie introduces Resource Generation, an org connecting people with inherited wealth to redistribution and justice.
  • “I am really interested in privileging having a rich community over having endless resources so I don’t need community.” [77:46]
• The hosts and Katie connect capitalist, individualist cultures with everything from war and genocide to personal struggles with “enough.”
  • “If you don’t know what enough is, you are not free.” [85:00]
  • They reference Naomi Klein’s “Doppelganger” and discuss how hoarding—globally and personally—is symptomatic of this spiritual malaise.

7. Listening to the Body’s Signals

• The crew repeatedly circles back to the importance of bodily signals—learning to trust physical intuition about people, places, situations, and relationships.
  • “The more I clear away shame, the faster and freer I am to express: this is the message I just got.” [75:18]
• "Shadow shame is the ultimate desire killer." [75:22]

8. The Baby Lizard—Innate Knowing

• Inspired by Katie’s song “Inconsolable,” they explore the metaphor of the baby lizard:
  • “It’s about this idea that there’s something inside us that knows how to move next, that knows how to survive, just like baby lizards who run to the river when no one teaches them.” [67:08]
• This taps into discussions about softness, vulnerability, and the bravery to show the "littlest/softest self" in relationships.

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On generational lesbian lineage:
  • Glennon: “Put a group of old lesbians in a room and...they’re gonna bitch about the next generation...until somebody says, Katie Gavin. And then all the old lesbians go: yes. Respect.” [05:07]
• On “femme dom”:
  • Katie: "You've really claimed the agency to be—I'm going to create the life that I want for myself, and I'm going to create a community around me that feels so good. I want that for all my people, too…I'm like, that's a dom. You're just doming it." [19:48]
• On artistic individuality:
  • Katie: “Art, to me, I’m amazed when people can do it collectively.…How do we find community and work and life where we can be held and free? Held and free. Held and free.” [35:30]
• On desire’s guidance:
  • Glennon: “All I care about is not suffering through the not that for too long.” [30:21]
• On addiction:
  • Katie: “My sponsor calls it the treadmill in the cosmos… We have this entire universe around us… and we put ourselves on a treadmill, and the numbers tell us if we're good or bad… I need to make things small and binary.” [64:49]
• On the intergenerational baton:
  • Tish (performing "The Baton"): “I would tell my daughter she must be her own mother / ’cause I can only take her as far as I can go…” [45:06]
  • Glennon: “They fought so you could hump, and it was so worth it, Katie.” [18:30]
• On hoarding and enough:
  • Glennon: “If you don’t know what enough is, you are not free.” [85:01]
  • “I am just beginning to look at my own hoarding and my own individualism… The concept of enough—we just haven’t been taught to care about or see any end to it.” [84:57]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:40 – Episode purpose: desire, courage, intergenerational healing, recovery, activism
• 05:07 – Lesbian lineage humor and generational respect
• 10:33 – Roller skate metaphor and seeking joy
• 14:20 – Generational envy & queer self-expression (“sexuality” as freedom)
• 29:07 – Katie on learning to identify desire
• 33:58 – Noticing the "not that" in creativity (co-writing struggles)
• 37:57 – MUNA, collaboration, and solo work; creative individuation
• 44:40 – "The Baton" is performed by Tish; generational healing
• 54:30 – Conversations with mom about independence and inheritance
• 62:11 – On recovery, underestimating what can change with time
• 64:49 – Addiction described as making your internal world smaller
• 67:08 – “Baby lizard” metaphor for inner knowing and instinct
• 75:18 – Learning to trust body signals, clearing shame
• 77:46 – Resource Generation, inherited wealth, and community
• 85:00 – The concept of “enough” and freedom from hoarding
• 86:59 – Speaking out, activism, community accountability

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Tone and Language

The conversation is heartfelt, irreverent, wise, deeply personal, and at times, hilarious. There is an undercurrent of mutual adoration, allyship, and radical honesty as the hosts and Katie challenge and validate each other’s experiences. Vulnerability is met with safety and celebration, and humor alleviates the weight of the episode’s big existential themes.

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For Further Listening & Action

• MUNA and Katie Gavin's solo album What a Relief
• Resource Generation (resourcegeneration.org)
• Naomi Klein's Doppelganger
• Explore your own “baton”—write, sing, or talk about what you want to carry forward, and what you want to let go, from your own lineage.

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Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. When I tell you that we have been waiting so long and with such anticipation to do this conversation.

[Abby Wambach]

We are talking today to one of.

[Glennon Doyle]

The most important artists in our family's life.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Not just artists, but people, activists, just.

[Glennon Doyle]

Way of being people we look towards. And that's Katie Gavin. Katie Gavin. You'll see this conversation healed parts of us. I think it made us feel hopeful for the future for the first time in a while. It is about so many things. It's about how to find that little kernel of desire inside of you and.

[Abby Wambach]

How to have the courage to unleash.

[Glennon Doyle]

It out into the world. It's about intergenerational healing, about how to honor what's come before us while also letting go of what we don't want to take with us into the future. It's about recovery and addiction and how to begin to make our lives that have become small, bigger. It's about listening to the signals in our body. It's about how to live right now in a way that makes this planet habitable and more beautiful for the next generation. It's hard to believe that all of this is in the conversation.

[Amanda]

It's so beautiful.

[Glennon Doyle]

You'll see.

[Amanda]

It's one of my. It's literally one of my favorite conversations we've ever had on We Can Do Hard things Same.

[Glennon Doyle]

Katie Gavin is not only our personal.

[Abby Wambach]

Hero, but is also a musician and member of the pop band Muna, of course. Life so fun. Life so fun, you know. And released her debut solo album, what a Relief, which is the soundtrack of our home this past October 2024.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's an album about desire for connection and the obstacles in the way of achieving that. Gavin's explorations of desire and intimacy are time worn and so necessary right now.

[Abby Wambach]

And her songs truly are sort of like a clarion call for her generation.

[Glennon Doyle]

About how to live and how to.

[Abby Wambach]

Look inside yourself for guidance and move forward. She is currently in the studio with.

[Glennon Doyle]

Muna, working on their forthcoming album.

[Amanda]

And I just want to say this is going to. I'm attaching this to Katie's bio. She is now my best friend.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Abby Wambach's best friend.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And that's my dream.

[Abby Wambach]

And also she calls me a femme dom, if you want to know what that means.

[Amanda]

This is what's going to be going on our new bios now. Katie Gavin is now our best friend.

[Abby Wambach]

Enjoy.

[Katie Gavin]

Katie, our girl. Yes. Hi, babies.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi.

[Katie Gavin]

So good to see you.

[Amanda]

Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Gosh, Katie, this might be a normal day for you, but this is a very exciting day for us. Shut up.

[Katie Gavin]

No, I'm. I'm excited. I'm nervous. Oh, God, us too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Katie, this is my sister, Amanda. You know us, but you two haven't met.

[Katie Gavin]

Hi, babe. Hi, Katie.

[Emily]

Very happy to know you.

[Katie Gavin]

It's so nice to meet you. Where are y'?

[Abby Wambach]

All?

[Katie Gavin]

This looks so good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, really? We're in our basement in a little corner that looks like this. And the whole rest of the room is shit. Totally. And Amanda is in her son's corner of the bedroom, right? Yeah.

[Amanda]

But technically we're at home, right? Yeah, we're at home.

[Glennon Doyle]

Where are you?

[Katie Gavin]

I'm in my band's studio. I came here because I was like, oh, I want to, like, record with a microphone. And I got here an hour ago, and I literally just figured out how to, like, kick. Get the microphone working with my computer. I'm like, how do I have a studio? And it's this hard to do this. I don't know where anything is. I have, like, big time. We call it lead singer syndrome. Like, I'm just. I don't know what's going on.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think I have that.

[Katie Gavin]

I think you have.

[Amanda]

You have lead singer.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think I have that. I'm going to call it that. That sounds so much better than the.

[Abby Wambach]

How I've referred to it.

[Katie Gavin]

How do you refer to it?

[Glennon Doyle]

I call. Well, I just call it beginner's mind, Katie. I think it's a Buddhist concept to not be aware of what's going on and to just be freshly surprised constantly.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

Speaking of freshly surprised, we have to. Basically, we're going to do our best to just be cool about all this, but. Yeah, by the end of the hour, you're going to understand how actually important you are to our family. Poor, borderline creepy.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I kind of feel a little bit like a little creepy about it.

[Katie Gavin]

You know, we.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're the most played person in our house. You are. There is. There are a few rooms that I'm in. One thing that's true about Ms. Katie Gavin is that put a group of old lesbians in a room and they're going to bitch about the next generation for six hours until somebody says, katie Gavin.

[Amanda]

Yeah, that's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then all the old lesbians are gonna go, yes, Respect.

[Katie Gavin]

That is the only thing I care about. I think. You know this. Like. Yeah, for me, it's like the elders know everything. And by the way, we have to. We have to actually be defining our terms here, though, because I feel Like, a lot of your. What you're talking about is old lesbians are just the same age as the lesbians that I hang out with. So I don't know where this is. This is an interesting. But anybody who is like, anybody who is at all older than me, first of all, anyone that is at all younger than me is my child. I feel like you're probably the same way.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, you are.

[Katie Gavin]

I mean, a lesbian that's like three years younger than me, I'm like, you'll understand when you've lived life.

[Amanda]

You know what I mean? I totally hear that.

[Katie Gavin]

It's like, yeah, but I. It's. And it's so freeing to be. I feel like there is something in lesbian culture where it's like, the older we get, the like. Like, we're seen as, like, hotter and wiser and more revered. And that's really how I feel about, like, anybody who has lived a little bit more than me. I'm just like, I. All I care about is impressing you and being in your good graces.

[Glennon Doyle]

So while you are doing really well with that, Brett, can you show Katie just, like, like, what just happened the other day with Emily and Amy and Melissa?

[Amanda]

Yeah, hold on just a second.

[Katie Gavin]

Oh, my God. Wait, were you there? Where were. Where were they?

[Glennon Doyle]

I just follow them wherever they are, and I ended up in a room with them recording this.

[Parisa]

Like, I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from Luna.

[Katie Gavin]

She is.

[Parisa]

Amazing human being. I love her. I just. She's a really wonderful human being. And she. I went to go see her play her solo show in New York, and I met her friends and I. It was like. I was gonna say a kid in a candy store, but it was more like, here I am, this person in my age with my experience and trying to use the tools that I have. These young people were so inspiring. First of all, they were all non.

[Amanda]

Binary, all her friends.

[Parisa]

One of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food. Food, like, on the ground. Complete courage that they wouldn't even call courage. It's just the way that they live their truth. So I'm like, y' all tell me what to do, and I'll do my best as a middle aged, like, whatever.

[Katie Gavin]

Totally, totally. That is my bestie right there. That is my bestie. I really love Emily so much. You know, like, when you meet somebody and it's just like, immediately you don't have to explain anything to each other. You're just like, you're one of my. You're one of my people. Yeah, it was so easy with her. And, yeah, she came and did closer to fine at my solo show in New York. It was really wonderful because I feel like Emily is one of those icons that I think it might be a beginner's mind, like, has no idea that she's an icon. So it was really special to have, like, her in front of a crowd of young lesbians and. And non binaries who were just, like, absolutely losing their. Also with Parisa, this is my friend who, like, definitely is kind of like the, like, on the deepest level of activism that I've witnessed in my life. But I've never seen them, like, they're backstage at a lot of my shows in New York, and I've never seen them, like, fangirl over anybody. And they really. Yeah, they really lost their shit for Emily.

[Glennon Doyle]

Aw. Emily deserves that.

[Katie Gavin]

Emily does deserve that. Yeah, Emily deserves the world.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I'm just gonna tell you a couple little tidbits of how you have affected my life. First of all, I think we first heard MOV when we were living in Florida. Our kids were playing you constantly. Silk chiffon became my whole personality. And then I had a vision of myself in rollerblades on the strand like you. I was like, this is my personality and I'm gonna manifest this. And so I. In the first week that we lived in, in California, I got. I made Abby go buy me roller skates, and I roller skated down the strand. And then I. I fell so hard that strangers had to stop and ask me if I need an ambulance.

[Katie Gavin]

Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

And so that was. I was like, yeah, life's so fun.

[Katie Gavin]

Where did you fall? Did you fall on your ass?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, in my head. And then someone said, does she need an ambulance? And I. That was. I. I had a 10 minute silks. Fun life. Anyway, I try, Katie. I try. No.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Katie Gavin]

But this is the thing about roller skates is that, like, they are so dangerous that my worst. My worst falls have been on roller skates. I have some friends that are derby girls, and they, like, you know, during the pandemic, I really, like, joined everybody in, like, just becoming, like, manically hyper fixated on roller skating. Like, we. What happened?

[Glennon Doyle]

We needed life to be so fun, Katie.

[Amanda]

We needed, like.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, we really did. But I. Okay, like, I have now made a distinction between if I'm. If I'm outside, I have to have roller blades because skates are so sensitive. And I've had. I've cracked phones. I've like, been in bed for three days with, like, a swollen knee. Like, it's. It's a serious game when you're on skates.

[Glennon Doyle]

Makes me feel better.

[Katie Gavin]

But you know what we should do? We should go to, like, an indoor rink and get you back on the skateboard.

[Amanda]

I want to do that because, like, you know, any little rock or any little, like, change in elevation or, like, a crack, you're going down on roller skates.

[Glennon Doyle]

I had the socks, Katie. I had. I just. You.

[Katie Gavin]

I'm sure. You look cute as hell.

[Amanda]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Emily]

Right up until the fall on the ass.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was a good look.

[Katie Gavin]

Totally. I mean, yeah. It's like. That's what really draws us in is, like. It's so. It's cuter. It's cute than the blades, but it is a really extreme sport.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was extreme. Okay. And then the other thing is, when we were in. We finally got to talk to each other because we had had a really good friendship. You just didn't know about it yet. And then we were in the airport, Mexico, at Brandy's thing. Oh, yeah. We ran into them at the airport, and we're passing them, and there was a lot of. Of us at the.

[Amanda]

We were going to Girls Just wanna weekend in Mexico, and Muno was performing there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And so this lovely group of people walks by, and one of them looks at me and says, I love you. And I do. I know. And I do my, like, humble, sweet face, and I'm like, thanks. And then I keep walking, and Tish, my daughter, we get like, 10 steps away, and she stops me, and she goes. And we don't really cuss to each other. She goes, what the. She said, mom, fix it. Go back. Do you know who that was? And I was like, no way. So then we go back. Okay, then, Katie, I don't know if you remember, but we're at a table in Mexico and you come over, and I have to sort of apologize because I've accidentally, in a podcast that we were recording with Brandy and Kath, in front of a thousand people, said, muna is my sexuality. And what I meant.

[Katie Gavin]

Wait, wait, wait, Pause. Because do you know that I was there in the room? I was standing in the back of the room.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, that's great.

[Katie Gavin]

I mean, I think what's happening is that we are being creeps for each other.

[Amanda]

Yes. So it cancels each other out, and we're just, like, friends. Yeah, that's it.

[Katie Gavin]

I've decided, because I felt like I was eavesdropping, like, I was like, I. I guess I should I not be here? But I'm like, I want to know.

[Amanda]

Well, based on what she said, where Muna is her sexuality, I could understand why you might feel like you were eavesdropping in on something that maybe you shouldn't have been hearing. Because, Glennon, you have to explain.

[Glennon Doyle]

What I meant was. Amanda, I've tried. I called my sister.

[Abby Wambach]

I was like, I said this, but.

[Glennon Doyle]

I really need you to explain to you what I meant. What I meant was that there's a lot of different expressions of gender on the stage and, like, energies in. In Muna that I relate to every single one of them. I didn't mean. Fine. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, Abby was like. And when I said sexuality, what I.

[Emily]

Meant was not sexuality.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was just. I know. Word.

[Katie Gavin]

I know what you are saying, and I think that's beautiful. But I would take it as more of a compliment if you. If it was the thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. But here's.

[Amanda]

Here's actually what I think. Here's what I think, Katie. I think the way that you all move on the stage and the way that you perform with such fucking freedom, that wasn't something that. For Glennon, for many years, straight white person and now. And now a queer person, it's like the OGs weren't allowed to express themselves in the way that you all do. And so there's this jealousy, this, like. This, like. This craving of, like. And watching you do it, it makes us open up and it makes us feel like, oh, we can maybe express ourselves in that way. And that is, I think, a form of sexuality. I don't know if it's, like, pointed in the direction of necessarily you got. I mean, hopefully not, but. But do you know what I mean?

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, I do. And I. I remember hearing this. This part of the. This conversation. I think, like, you and Brandy were going back and forth about, like, the feelings that come up when you see, like, younger queers have, like, a more liberated sense of self and have the ability to, like, move in public and express their sexuality without as much fear.

[Abby Wambach]

And.

[Katie Gavin]

And I can imagine that that's really complex. I can actually relate a little bit because I do feel like the, like, progress of queer representation has been. Has moved in such an exponential way that, like, even, you know, Muna started as a band, like, publicly in 2014. So this was like. I'm like, guys, when was marriage equality?

[Amanda]

Was it 15?

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was a nice time while it lasted.

[Katie Gavin]

2015 to 2025. So I feel like we have seen A big shift even in our time. Like, I remember us having many conversations in the beginning, like, deciding if we were going to talk about our sexuality. And I also know that this conversation differs a lot between, like, people who present as more femme and people who present as more masc. I think it was a different type of bravery for Naomi and Josette, and they also had to go on, like, a different journey of being comfortable asserting, like, this is how I want to represent myself. And it might not make sense to, like, stylists that are used to mass media projects or whatever, but, like, the people who get it, like, are going to get it. So we've seen that difference. But I also, like, I totally understand that confusing mix of emotions of, like, damn, am I envious of this person? Or is it, like, actually inviting me into, like, is this a sign that this is a space that I'm safe to move into now? And, like, what does that feel like for me? And also, it's so. There's, like, an irony there, because it's like, we wouldn't be able to express ourselves in that way had it not been for, like, the ways that those who came before us, like, showed up and fought and really fought, you know, like, gay liberation was. Was no joke. Like, people put their. Their physical safety on the line so many times so that we can, like, fake hump each other on stage, you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Know, and it was so worth it, Katie.

[Katie Gavin]

I know, and I'm so grateful for the fight.

[Glennon Doyle]

They fought so you could hump, and.

[Katie Gavin]

It'S really so that I might hump.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Katie Gavin]

And I. And I will.

[Glennon Doyle]

When. When you came up to me at the table and I tried to explain this, which I didn't need to, and you said, I understand that what you're saying about the sexuality expression or the gender expression. Because you said. Because you are. You are femme dom.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, Now, Katie.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

When I am asked to explain, who are you? In an interview, when I walk down the street and someone and they say, who are you? I say, katie. Gavin says, I'm fem.

[Amanda]

It's so true, you guys. It's what she says now. It's.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's my favorite, like, labels. I've never accepted any of them except for that. And the only problem with it is that I don't understand what the hell it means. It just sounds right. Although when I said it to my son, oh, God. He said, please don't say that to me again.

[Amanda]

Yeah, he kind of got a little cringy.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think it might mean something else. Can you Explain to me what I've been introducing myself as. I hope it's like a secret society.

[Katie Gavin]

Of, like, this is just the energy I get from you. It's also, like, like, you're my femme sister. Like, I. And I think that this is so. You know, there's so much discourse. And, like, Abby, you might know more about this than I do, because I think in some ways, like, I'm not actually as learned about, like, the fembutch, like, culture and history as I should be, but I do recognize myself as being, like, a part of that lineage. But I think that, to me, femme dom means that I have embraced that. One, I'm like, I'm super queer. And two, I have, like, a strong feminine energy that, like, doesn't take away from my queerness. Like, I love to get glammed up. I love to, like, look hot and, like, have that be a part of my power, you know? And I think the dom part, it also comes from this history of in, like, a femme butch dynamic, maybe in it from a time where people weren't as comfortable, like, expressing desire, like, in an open way. I think, because, like, butchers are in a position where they're not as, like, physically safe to move through the world because they're clockable as queer. I think, like, femmes maybe took on this role of being the ones to, like, initiate more. Being, like, more in control of, like, I know what's going on here, and, like, I'm gonna make this happen. And I think that kind of energy, like, also applies to other things. I think that another way to explain, like, my. My view of femme, like, being a femme and being kind of, like, dummy is, like, that there's something about my. It's just like, separating this idea. It's really basic. I guess in the end, it's like separating this idea of, like, someone who is feminine needs to, like, take a more passive role in things. Like, I think I see you as someone who's like, you've really taken so much agency in your life. Like, you've really claimed the agency to be, like, I am going to create the life that I want for myself, and I'm going to create a community, like, around me that feels so good. And I want that for all my people to, like, the kind of, like, active role that I've seen you play in your world. I'm like, that's a dom. Like, you're just. Just doming it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Put it on my gravestone.

[Amanda]

It's so true. And I mean, Katie, like, you're Just that you're. The way that your brain is, like, moving right now. I just appreciate all of that thoughtfulness so much. And I don't think that I've ever thought of. Because of my. My sports background. And yes, I'm. I'm mask, and I am very, like, queer presenting. It's interesting how I've never thought of my safety because of my sport, but I do think that Glennon has this ability to pass as a straight person, which gives her a little bit more privilege. Privilege and safety in certain spaces. And I think that you've noticed that in our relationship and marriage over time.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, my God. That's why I can be fired up. It's like when I'm with a friend who's black, and I can get away with being a different way. It's just a level of safety and how you can move in the world.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah. And having to navigate that individually with every relationship. Naomi and Joe and I have had a lot of conversations about when I should be a bulldog on their behalf and when they really don't want me to get into it with people.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. I have that conversation all the time.

[Amanda]

Totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, stop. This is not because you. You. You'll be safe if you start this fight. I mean, I get in some things and I can be with people who are like, you'll be safe for the next 15 minutes if you start this shit. And I will not.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to. We can do hard things for free.

[Emily]

I'm not a dog person.

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[Emily]

Like grocery shopping or washing jerseys.

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[Emily]

I'm just fascinated by the whole conversation about like desire and agency too. Because even when Glennon's talking about watching Muna on stage and being like, I don't know what it is but that and, and you're, it's like whether it's a freedom that I want or something that I'm attract, it's about desire, right? Not even necessarily desire for them, but desire for me. Like I, I am feeling a pull of that. And then to hear you talk even about all of these things seem like so rooted in an ability to identify your desire and then somehow to either have or not have the agency to make it so. Like even Glennon creating that life that she wants for herself is an active desire and an active agency. And so I've just, I've never really. I don't know what it means when you can't identify the desire or where that comes from. Like a lot of people can't say. They will say, I don't know what I want. I don't even know what I want for dinner, much less what I want for my life or what I want for my relationship or my sexuality or whatever. Do you have any thoughts about like.

[Katie Gavin]

Where.

[Emily]

What that comes from? The Ability to identify, like, I want that either that person or that life. And like, what doesn't happen for people who can't do that.

[Katie Gavin]

Totally. I mean, that's really huge, I think. Thanks for pulling that out of what we're dancing around. I think for me, I am so like, touched by the grace of God that I was able to get to the point where like Muna as a project was started. Because when I look back, like, I was not a person who could identify what I want or a person who was in touch with my like, gut instinct at all. And I think in a lot of ways, like, having Muna made me accountable. It's a big part of like, what put me on my recovery journey. And like, I wanna like, get into all that stuff. But I also am curious about how. I mean, maybe this is a conversation for like, another time, but I'm still at the beginning of figuring out how to talk about recovery in like a public, public way and like a way that feels good. So I guess I'm just like asking higher power to help me.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, for me, the recovery thing is, is sort of like everything else. It's like the desire conversation you're having because when you think about how do you find out what you want? I don't know how most people do that. I truly am a person who has to learn the hard way. That's how my life's always been and will continue to be. For me, maybe identifying desire is a lot like, you know that story of whoever it was, some famous sculptor who, who said that all they do is they take a rock and then they cut out what isn't the sculpture, that the sculpture's already in the rock. All they're doing is chiseling away what's not the sculpture. And then the sculpture. That's what desire is for me. I have to constantly try things and go, not that. Not that, not that. I know the not that. What I am good at is not suffering through the not that for too long.

[Katie Gavin]

Okay. I was gonna say, did you used to feel like guilty about when it was not that, like, and struggle with. I think I'm still in that part a little bit where it's like, if something isn't working, I feel like it's cuz I. I'm doing something wrong and I just have to like, figure out how to make it work. But I keep hearing this message over and over again that like being able to identify not that quickly and like accepting it is huge.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I think that one of the hard things About. For. Because, I mean, I've been in recovery for almost 10 years now, and you. 22. One of the hardest parts about recovery for me at the beginning was it made. Like, at first you were like, I can't trust myself, because myself got me into this mess.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. Story.

[Amanda]

And so the not that part of this conversation is, like, holding, like, loosely to the not that of whatever choices you're making or, you know, the sculpture. Like, it's like letting go of those parts that you just. That aren't serving you that haven't worked. And I don't know. I just. I. I remember very vividly being like, oh, I can't trust myself. I have to, like, turn myself over to a higher power or just, like, really, like, white knuckle it at first. But eventually I drank 15 cups of coffee every single day because that was my not that attitude.

[Glennon Doyle]

You had to do whatever you had to do.

[Amanda]

And one person said to me long ago, whatever you have to do, just do it. In order to not do that. In order to not drink alcohol.

[Glennon Doyle]

The sculpture at the center that you're recovering in recovery, like, whatever recovery. Is recovering an original plan? Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

Uncovering.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So it kind. I guess for me, I get into situation every hour, every day, every situation.

[Katie Gavin]

And I feel y' all get into a lot of situations. Like, you're. You have a high amount of situations in your life.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

High stakes, low clarity. Okay. And. And I feel a no. And I also feel. Yes. Like, I feel, oh, this is warm. This feels right. This feels like an opening. This person, this situation. And then there's a. Not that. And then I spend a lot of time and suffering telling myself that it's just me that can't handle that thing and other people can handle that thing, and so I should just. More familiar ways. Is that what you're talking about?

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah. You know what's coming up for me with that situation? Situation is co writing songs. I. And this has shifted for me. But when we first got signed, our label was encouraging us to do co writes, and I struggled with it so much, and every, like, every possible sign in my body that, like, it wasn't the right thing for me at that time was happening. Like, I would become so exhausted. I was getting sick. Like, all of these things that feel really on the nose, but I felt so bad about it. I was like, what's wrong with me that I can't show up and create in the way that these people want me to and the way that seemingly all these other people can? And I think what was going on is like, I. I have a hard time. I wonder how this is with you, Glennon, with, like, writing. I can't. There's a lot of things that make it impossible for me to, like, actually think clearly. And I can't, like, always actually think when I'm in a room with another person. It's quite hard.

[Glennon Doyle]

We talk about this all the. Is like, you are an individual sport athlete.

[Katie Gavin]

Totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, but I love people, but I. But art, to me, I'm amazed when people can do it collectively. I'm amazed by Muna. I'm amazed that you are a person. I'm obsessed with the idea of how do we find community and work and life where we can be held and free? Like, held and free. Held and free. And it feels like you're doing that. Like, you have found a way to be so respectful and gorgeous with your art with Muna, and then also carve out. I mean, what a relief. Like, the album is our family's heart.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Your solo album.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is. So I will.

[Emily]

It is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Every single theme of my life that is in my heart and mind is one of those songs.

[Amanda]

It is. What a relief.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was such a fucking relief.

[Katie Gavin]

That really means the world. And it makes me feel like I'm. I'm doing something right. And that was its own thing of, like, I started getting a feeling of, like, I. These songs, like, are special to me. Like, I know they're not right for Muna, but they mean something to me. And deciding, like, this is what I want, it might not make sense to other people. It might not actually be a smart business decision, because now it's been, like, four years, and Muna hasn't put out a new album, but I'm like, this is what I had to do. And, like, trusting that that's the step you have to take, like, to lead you to wherever you're going to be next, you know? And, like, it really did have a pretty, like, divine purpose in my life in terms of, like, reconnecting me to why I fell in love with music and songwriting and. And reconnecting me to this, like, really, like, experimental part of myself. We often talk about Muna as a marriage because we. We're, like. We're contractually, like, bound to each other, and we, like, create the like, and we make these things together. And I think y' all maybe know this. Like, Naomi and I dated in college. Naomi was, like, my first queer relationship. And. And we broke up, like, a month after we got signed. And then we went to couples Therapy after we broke up, and. And the only way that we could.

[Emily]

Because that's when you really have to.

[Katie Gavin]

Make it work and that. And when the only way we could explain it to the therapist, we were like, we're a divorced couple that has a child.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

You're co parenting.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, we're co parenting. Um, and I think, like, a lesson that I've learned in Muna is, like, we all have to, like, ri. Risk. You know, we have to take the risk of, like, leaving and growing individually and pursuing the thing that feels important and right for us and, like, changing so that the relationship can stay alive. The one thing that hasn't changed is that, like, Naomi and Joe are, like, my two favorite musicians and creators. And, like, I respect their vision and opinion so much. I think that's what makes a band is like. Like respecting somebody's vision and opinion and also not having, like, a toxic environment where you can't express your opinion, you know? But, yeah, I think that that was, like. That. That was a huge win for me in terms of, like, having a desire that I was afraid of and, like, not. And then not letting that stop me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Was it scary to tell them that you needed to go off on your own? I mean, I am thinking of other musicians that we know that have done this. How was that for you guys? How are those conversations? I'm just thinking of every single person who's in a family or in a friendship or every. Who are in these beautiful, tiny communities, but also feel the yearning for individuality, but are scared to do that because they're scared of hurting feelings. Like, how does that process go?

[Katie Gavin]

It was really, like, low and slow when we. We were working on our third album, and I already had, like, most of these songs together, and the first thing I asked was, like, can I take a week and go into the studio, like, with a group of people and just record these songs, like, as, like, kind of this experimental project. Like, I didn't really know what I was gonna. I was thinking, like, I'll just put it up on bandcamp or something. Like, I kind of have this, like.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, Katie.

[Katie Gavin]

Okay. I have this, like, like, pathological attachment to, like, starting over. I think it maybe has to do with, like. Like, under earning type of vibe, where it's like, I wanna. I. I want to, like, undervalue things so that I don't. So that it's less vulnerable.

[Glennon Doyle]

Totally. Yeah. We could get into that. Oh, I get that, Katie. Oh, that's.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm not. It's, like, vibes of like, listen, I'm not even trying. I'm just, like, I'm not even actually trying.

[Katie Gavin]

No, I just. I'm, like. I just spent, like, three days on it, and, like, so there's no way it could even be good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You know, under promise, over deliver. That was surprising. Look how well it did. Because our expectations were none.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, exactly. So I think, like, I. It's funny, actually. Like, I guess maybe I didn't really know that it was gonna be something that, like, snowballed, and I didn't. I wasn't necessarily being honest with myself about how much I cared about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh.

[Katie Gavin]

But I, like, recorded this. This batch of songs again. We were working on the third album, and I showed it to Phoebe, who had just signed us, signed Muna, and she was like, these are good. I want to put this out, like, as a solo record for you, but I want you to go back in the studio with my producer, Tony Berg, and work on the. Work on it.

[Emily]

Like, spend more than three days, Katie. It's worth it.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah. And. And I think it was a few. Like, I felt a few different things, because, first of all, like, the. The early version I did was with my friends, and it. There really is something really special about, like, those versions of those songs. I should send them to y'.

[Amanda]

All.

[Katie Gavin]

It's like, there's something really. There's something really special about it just being, like. Like, a group of people, like, throwing something together. And, like, everyone who worked on the first version of the project, I'm, like, so grateful to. But then I had to contend with, like, okay, am I. It was a different conversation then. It was like, okay, I. I think I actually want to put this out on a label, and, like, I want to work on it, like, as an album that I'm gonna put out in a real way, like, with an album campaign and everything. That became a different conversation. And we decided that I would wait until the Moon album came out. And, you know, I do have to say that, like, I think if it had been one of them that had done it, I think I would have had a harder time than, like, they are such, like, understanding and supportive friends, and they were, like, pretty much immediately able to, like, put their egos aside and let me do what I had to do. So. And I can't say I would have been able to do the same thing. I think I would have maybe required some band therapy sessions.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I mean, it's all. Co parenting is all good until the other parent decides to pursue a new partner, like, right Things get freaking complicated.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, definitely.

[Glennon Doyle]

So beautiful. Can we show you? Okay. So we did this tour. We actually did it for all the. The network of immigration orgs in the country. And we started every. Every single night with our daughter singing the baton. Okay, so can we just. It's just a minute. I just want you to short clip.

[Tish]

This song is on repeat in our house all the time. And it means a lot to my family. It's kind of about, like, healing and generational trauma. Just some light stuff to close out the evening. So this is the baton.

[Katie Gavin]

It's by Katie Gavin.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh.

[Tish]

If I had a daughter, I know what I would tell her. I know what I would tell her when she's old enough to know I would tell my daughter she must be her own mother. Cause I can only take her as far as I can go. And on the very same day she joined a kind of relay. I'd pass it in a time and I say, you better run cuz this thing has been going for many generations, but there is so much healing that still needs to be done. But today I have no daughter. I only have a mother.

[Abby Wambach]

9, 11.

[Tish]

My mother taught me everything she knows and I don't want to leave her. But she is driving. Join. She's coming around the corner. I can hear yelling. Go.

[Katie Gavin]

Go on, girl.

[Tish]

It will be passed again.

[Amanda]

Oh, Tishy.

[Katie Gavin]

Man. She can really. You can really do it.

[Glennon Doyle]

She can really do it.

[Katie Gavin]

You can really do it.

[Amanda]

Are you crying, Katie?

[Emily]

Oh, good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Maybe.

[Amanda]

Oh, my gosh. So was Glennon, and like, I was jamming last night to that song because we just finalized that clip. And I just. I cannot tell you. There was. There has been a point that I was playing it so often that my family's like, okay, maybe there should be a different.

[Glennon Doyle]

So then we played Inconsolable.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah, maybe there should be a different song. No. It's really kind of diabolical to make me watch a clip of Tish performing it, like, for, like, with you there. Like, I think that's really too much.

[Amanda]

I think.

[Emily]

And then there was a night that my mom.

[Katie Gavin]

No.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Was in the audience.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So Tish is singing to my mom. We're there.

[Katie Gavin]

She did.

[Emily]

And then.

[Katie Gavin]

No.

[Emily]

And then we all poofed.

[Katie Gavin]

Yes.

[Parisa]

No.

[Katie Gavin]

We're doing violence to people.

[Glennon Doyle]

Agreed.

[Katie Gavin]

I had a few shows where, like, I had different family members. When I did the Hollywood Forever Cemetery show, or it wasn't at the cemetery, it was at Masonic Lodge, but my mom sang it and she learned the harmony and it was the cutest Thing. And also my. My older sister is pregnant. And so she was there like the last time, I think it was like Red Rocks, which was one of the last shows on the Lucy Dacus tour that I did like singing to my pregnant sister. It's like, it's really crazy. It's really crazy when you're. When you're actually like in the presence of multiple generations of women. It just makes me be like, I love my mom.

[Glennon Doyle]

Katie, how did that start? Like, I have post, I have retroactive stress that you. That there's a realm in which you didn't follow your desire and you got too scared. Do it. And then you didn't make this song. And then. And I just want everybody. This is not just about Katie. This is about the little kernel in your body that thinks that you have a desire to put something that's inside your body, outside your body and should you be brave enough to do it and just look like.

[Emily]

And how somehow that's selfish because like I. If you thought this doing individual was selfish, like, you should know that my. I wouldn't understand my life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly, Katie.

[Amanda]

It's so true.

[Glennon Doyle]

So what started that kernel and also like the layers of it were the Irish music and like the choice of the Irish sound being part of like the cultural baton of your life. And just, just say anything about that song.

[Katie Gavin]

Well, first of all, I don't want to forget that. I am really curious about if you have any experiences with writing and creating where after this question just kind of made me think about times where I've written something and then I get scared about alternate universes where I lived the day a different way and like the thing didn't get created. I wonder if that happens to you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, all the time. And then I have a million things that I've written that I don't put out because I'm already scared of the alternate reality of me putting that out and what would happen. What will happen to that world? Oh yeah, absolutely.

[Katie Gavin]

But I think that the beginning of the baton came with like that metaphor of a relay race. I was in Nashville again, like on a journey of trying to co write and this was one of the first times that I actually had a successful co writing session. I think like people in Nashville are a little slower and calmer and it like that was helping me. But I was also like just meeting a lot of like cool young women and my friend Maddie Diaz had like, had like a full moon ceremony. So I was just like, I was just vibing and I remember driving and this the metaphor of the relay race, like, kind of crystallized for me. And I remember feeling like. I think there's. I think I had. I had heard somebody say at one point that, like, you have to find the metaphors for you that you can use as, like, oars. Like, you have to find the metaphors that are helpful, you know, like, that will move you forward on your journey. And, you know, there's so many ways to talk about, like, where we fall short in terms of, like, loving each other. And I think this image of, like, maybe we're not actually, like, falling short generationally, but we're, like, fulfilling the part that was, like, meant for us to fulfill. And also, we're going as far as we can, you know, like, that's just, like, we're doing all we can do is, like, what. What was meant for us to do. And seeing that so clearly, you know, I was also, I think, like, in my late 20s. Like, I was maybe 29 when I wrote this song. So I think getting to the place of, like, really understanding, not really understanding. Let's be honest, I'm not a mom.

[Emily]

You also won't really understand if you're ever afraid, so don't worry.

[Katie Gavin]

That's really.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's the bad ways. Katie.

[Katie Gavin]

Great.

[Glennon Doyle]

The songwriting is so careful, though. It's so specific and beautiful like, that. We talk about the line of. I know that my mother taught me everything she knows. That is not. That is a way of saying, what a gift. We don't. We. Also, there is so much focus on what they didn't do and what the bad stuff is and what they couldn't get their. Together to clear out and what they. And I live in that world often. But that line is so wise and generous and true. It. Like, one of the times the kids said, my mom is always being the best mom she can be. And I was like, that's sweet. Like, she didn't say she's the best mom.

[Katie Gavin]

Well, yeah, there is a little bit of it. Like, when I. When I was gonna show my mom, I was kind of like, I wonder if she's gonna hate this song. Like, interesting, because I think it takes, like. I mean, like, there's so much emotion in it. Like, there's. There's definitely a sadness there. It's like, we want to be, like, more than we are for each other, you know, like, there's always going to be that straining. But I think, you know, I'm really lucky to have a mom with whom I've had a lot of conversations about Like. Like, I remember at one point, like, we'll see if she's cool with me sharing this story. But, like, I remember when. When I was in early recovery, I was probably being, like, a snob about it, and I was like, I actually figured out that there's, like, actually a way to live that, like, we should be doing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God. Katie. Newly sober and crossfits and vegans.

[Amanda]

Vegan.

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Amanda]

Newly sober.

[Glennon Doyle]

Evangelical.

[Amanda]

No.

[Katie Gavin]

It's really bad. Yeah. And I think she was like, you think you're, like, so much better than me, and it's annoying. And. And I think I. We had some conversation that kind of was like, you did the same thing to your mom when you were my age. Like, my mom is really fiercely independent, and after college, she went to the Philippines and, like, did work that her mom didn't want her to do because she was like, that's, like, not safe. And my mom was just like, this is what I'm gonna do. This is what's right for me. And I'm like, I'm separating myself from you right now. But it's because I am the same as you. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, yes, it's because I'm independent like you. You know, Katie, every time my kids.

[Glennon Doyle]

Walk around with their little notebooks and I know they're writing shit about me, right? I'm like, I want you to know that I gave you the match that you're using to light me up.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

And, like, how funny is that? That is funny.

[Amanda]

Great irony. Great irony.

[Katie Gavin]

It is. But, yeah, I think it was also definitely from a point of, like, I'm sure y' all went through this in recovery and doing the steps of, like, just seeing things, like, you know, like, zooming out and being like, oh, like, my grandma was dealing with a lot, you know, and seeing how that affects, like, it's not just like, my mom is also a daughter.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Katie Gavin]

That's so crazy.

[Glennon Doyle]

And now it's time for our ads.

[Abby Wambach]

As you may have noticed over the last 20 years, I never know what to do with my hair. Sometimes I actually make an effort to do it, but 30 minutes later, it's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Pulled up on the top of my head again.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

How is your recovery?

[Abby Wambach]

What are.

[Glennon Doyle]

Where are you in it and what are you. What are you thinking about?

[Katie Gavin]

What am I recovering from or.

[Glennon Doyle]

Or. I don't even know. Just what do you want to talk about when it comes to recovery?

[Katie Gavin]

I think I'm. First of all, I think I'm like ready to begin again in a different area which. All which like life has a way of showing you like. Yeah, the blind spots.

[Glennon Doyle]

Damn it.

[Emily]

Recovery is a slippery slope.

[Amanda]

Totally.

[Katie Gavin]

But I also feel like actually taking it back to this. Amanda, your question about like getting in touch with our desire. I came into the rooms when I was 24 and like getting sober like that first year I was really pretty low functioning. I had so, so much anxiety that I couldn't drive a car. So I sold my car. I moved into a house with my best childhood friend who actually is obsessed with this podcast. So if you're listening, Becca, say Becca.

[Glennon Doyle]

We love you, Becca. Hi Becca.

[Katie Gavin]

We love you. She's gonna die. And I moved into a house with her because I kind of needed like, not necessarily supervision, but I needed like co regulation and accountability and I. My life was really small and I remember like feeling really like the, the progress was on, like, such a small level, I felt like my life had, like, shrunk down to a little nucleus, right? And I think at that time, I was like, this takes so long. It takes too long, and I'm not seeing, like, the. The results that I want. I was really impatient with, like, what was possible. And I think now it's like, so I've. So now it's, like, been eight years, and I think I overestimated, like, what would change in my life in, like, the first year of getting sober. And I really underestimated, like, what can change in eight years. Like, I think that it's. It feels really crazy to witness, like, in my life, the actual laws of, like, the abundance of nature, man. And it's like, if you plant a seed and you can wait, like, it's crazy what can happen, you know? And, you know, I'm sure y' all understand this. It's like, there's things that really change, and there's things that really don't change. Like, one of my biggest addictions is, like, people. And, like, if there's shiny people, then I can, like, get lost in fantasy and kind of, like, my life again, like, internally becomes really small, just around, like, one person. And so that's a little bit scary because sometimes I am just walking around and going about my life, not trying to get high, you know, and all of a sudden, it. It will happen to me, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Did you just say. Just stop for a second, that. I've never heard addiction described that way before, but it's a really important way of. When your internal life gets very small around something else. Is that what you said? Is it, like, you fill up with that thing as opposed to yourself suddenly?

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah. My sponsor calls it the treadmill in the cosmos. Like, it's like we have this, like, entire universe around us of things that can make us feel like a huge array of feelings. And we put ourselves on a treadmill, and the numbers on the treadmill tell us if we're good or bad. You know, it's like. Or like, a text back is going to tell you if you're good or bad. It's like, I need to make things, like, small and binary, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I do know. I do know mine's an actual treadmill, but that's.

[Katie Gavin]

Besides, I'm actually wondering if mine might be an actual treadmill as well. My. My partner pointed out to me recently, like, you know, there's a lot of different things going on with, like, different people in my world that I'm close to. And, like, I have a big impulse to, like, I'm. I can be really codependent and, like, want to step in and save people. And my partner pointed out, Sorry, someone's throwing something in a dumpster. My part. My partner pointed out that I've been, like, technically working out twice a day, like, most days of the week, because I'm, like, going to the gym and then I'm taking dance classes. And I was telling myself, like, oh, it's because, like, I'm just prepping for this next album cycle, and I can justified things in an interesting way. But then I was just like, oh.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I know that.

[Katie Gavin]

Oh, so, yeah. But how beautiful is it when you have, like, people in your life in your life who can, like, point gently?

[Glennon Doyle]

She's a gentle pointer. She really is. She does it every day. Do you think that there's something.

[Abby Wambach]

Inside.

[Glennon Doyle]

Of us that when we chip away, everything knows what we want, what to do, how to recover, how to be in the cosmos? I'm asking you about baby lizards right now. Okay, totally.

[Katie Gavin]

Wait, Tell. Tell people what? Baby what? Because baby lizards, it's.

[Amanda]

It's a. There's a line in Inconsolable, a song on Katie Gavin's solo album. It's called But I've seen baby lizards running in the river when they open their eyes, even though no one taught them how or why.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the context is I might have just turned this into our own story. So if this context is actually, this will be fun. But it's like, when the context of this idea that Katie's suggesting, that we have something in us that knows how to find our way home and back to each other, just like lizards, no one teaches them, but they know how to get to the river to get what they need to survive. The context is a relationship where they are shutting down to each other because they feel like internally they're too much of a mess to show themselves to each other. So there's a line in it that says, you run into the house trying to be your own savior. Like, that's all I do. So. But the idea is that if we just keep feeling our way through this, if the two of us in this relationship just keep returning to the part of ourselves, like baby lizards that know instinctively how to move next, we get out of our heads and into our bodies, we can find our way back to each other. That's my understanding of this song. And also, these two people may have been from families who didn't, like, hug or love or find their way to each Other so much so they didn't learn it.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

I mean, we're all Irish here, Katie.

[Amanda]

Just so you know.

[Katie Gavin]

We. Are you really Irish? Is the day so cute. Yes. Where in Ireland do you know where your family?

[Glennon Doyle]

My sister knows all of this.

[Amanda]

Where?

[Katie Gavin]

Amanda.

[Emily]

Yeah, we're mostly, like, Connemara.

[Glennon Doyle]

Galway area.

[Katie Gavin]

Hugh Galway girls.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

Well, I think what I'm gathering is that you understand this song way better than I do. I'm like, oh, that's so cool that that's what this song is about. Yeah. So I'm like, can you just tell me how to be baby lizard? I think it's also helpful to, like, in my life, one of the biggest, like, signs of progress that I will still celebrate like a little kid is let's say I'm having, like, a spiky moment with my partner where, like, I'm feeling upset. Spiky.

[Amanda]

I'm gonna use that. We say chippy. That you're getting chippy.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

Spiky. Sometimes I have days that are crunchy where I'm just like, why is it so crunchy today? But I'm like, you know, but I'm upset. A huge win for me these days is actually being able to trace back, like, oh, they said this thing, and it was a little thing. But, like, that made me feel like they're not on my side or that made me feel like they don't listen to me or, you know, and, like, to actually be able to, like, find a thread in me. And, like. And usually I don't. I. I. In the past, I ignore those threads because, again, like, I feel like it's wrong of me to, like, have these feelings or, like, it's just something I should deal with on my own, whatever. Like. But acknowledging this little part of me that, like, needs, like, I'm starting to understand that partnerships is really the space where we can ideally, like, feel safe to be, like, the littlest versions of ourselves, you know? And I'm so lucky to have, like, to have a partner now where they can really meet that version of me and, like, treat her tenderly. And they're, like, proud of me and will high five me, you know, if I, like, realize, oh, this is, like, this is what hurt my feelings, you know? And a lot of times I'm doing it, I have to do it in a voice. Like, I do, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

I do a baby voice, and it annoys my baby voice annoys me, because that's, like, a thing I'm not trying to be.

[Katie Gavin]

No. But, like, if that's what Gets it out of your mouth?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Katie Gavin]

Then, honey, that's what it's gotta be.

[Emily]

This is, like, 100% what I'm working on in therapy right now, which is this, like, 90% of my relationship happens in my head. Because when something happens, I'm constantly doing the negotiation of, like. Well, this visceral reaction is incommensurate with this particular thing.

[Katie Gavin]

Right.

[Emily]

And so this is therefore unreasonable. And something else I need to mediate in myself before I present it, because that's just crazy town. Right. But this. My therapist keeps trying to tell me the same thing. That, like, if. If an emotion happens, like, first of all, this is wild, but an actual emotion takes maximum of 90 seconds to flow through you. Like, if you will actually sit through the cycle of an emotion, it's 90 seconds. Which means when it's taking you, for example, 72 hours, that is not. That is like, you're spinning. And the reason you're spinning is because, like, that thing, when you're saying, like, that hit me in that way, that doesn't seem, like, responsive to what actually happened because it is hitting the baby lizard. Like, that thing is an old thing of yours. So you're right that it isn't commensurate with the situation. And it's so real.

[Ad Host]

And it's going to continue to be.

[Emily]

Real until you can bring it out and be like, this is that little thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So it's like, that's necessary to avoid it continuing to happen, which is just wild to me. I always thought this relationship is for this relationship, not, like, all of my stuff is here. And this relationship is a tool to get to all of that stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Oh, God, that's so true. We call it the softest self. You said the littlest self. And we call it the softest self. Like, you're the person that you feel safe with being your softest self. And it would make sense when the softest self feels threatened, that you would put up a spiky self.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like, when I find myself spiky, it's because I have just felt like somebody was going to see the softest self.

[Katie Gavin]

But sometimes, like, I don't even realize that that's what I'm doing. And so being able to. Yeah. There's something interesting in this conversation about, like, time and, like, Amanda, what you're saying about, like, an emotion, like, flowing through us, like, just, like, the idea that when we get these signals, like, from our body, whether it's like, something hit the baby lizard or, like, something Is like not right for us. It's not something that we want. You know, it's like working on like the ability to just be listening to like that. And there's something for me about the more I like clear away shame, the, the like faster and freer I am to express. Like, this is the message I just got. And like, I don't. It doesn't have to be like good or bad or right or wrong, but like this is the message I just got. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Really interesting. God.

[Emily]

Which is full circle to desire.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right?

[Emily]

Because like if you are getting a message and then you have shame on top of that message, like shadow shame is the ultimate desire killer. Like you're not going able to be.

[Glennon Doyle]

Free.

[Katie Gavin]

Totally in that way that made me. I immediately just went to being gay. I'm like, shame is ultimate desire killer. I'm like, I don't. I'm like, it didn't fully work for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Your will is strong, Katie.

[Katie Gavin]

I'm like, the force is strong. If you're like messed up about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. If you're a doll thing, there. There's a whole thing that's a whole another conversation.

[Katie Gavin]

There's a whole different thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my God. What do you. When you think about your baton, like, what are you desperately committed to carrying on from your lineage? And what are you thinking about letting go?

[Katie Gavin]

In my lineage again, like, the, the independence of spirit of like the women in my family I think is so beautiful. Elsewhere in my ancestry, like, my, my dad has an incredibly like tender heart and he's a lawyer, but he really has like the heart of a poet and I really honor that like in him. Like he, he's a really amazing listener and he's the person that I like, know I can. He's. He's someone I know I can go to like if I need like kind of like a non judgmental, you know, safe space. And I think I really hope to like carry that on. I think there's so much interesting stuff. So my kind of like political home in LA is a organization called Resource Generation. And I feel like this could be like, you know, I'll try not to get into a whole different world here.

[Glennon Doyle]

But now please do we want. We're going to ask you anyway about what you wanted to please do.

[Katie Gavin]

Okay. Well, Resource Generation is a group for people that have like some kind of inherited wealth who are interested in like redistribution. And it has been such a fascinating like process and home for political education to think about. I was raised in the North Shore of Chicago, which is Like, a very white, wealthy bubble. And I really do believe that there is, like, a very strong, like, white supremacist culture that has certain characteristics that I really, like, took in when I was younger. There's certain things, like being averse to conflict, privileging, quantitative signs of success over, like, a physical feeling in your body, you know, like. And I think also I still struggle with, like, you know, growing up in a. In a bubble like, that there's a really, like, narrow idea of success and. And, like, valuable, like, people. And I think I had to do a lot of, like, unlearning to. To understand, like, it's okay if that's not what success looks like for me, and that's not the kind of, like, life that I want to live. And that doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for everything that my parents have, like, given me. But, yeah, I think that there's a lot of, like, I am really interested in, like, privileging, like, having a rich community over having, like, endless resources so that I don't need community, you know?

[Amanda]

Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about.

[Glennon Doyle]

Katie, if you could. It's. We have our. This is the conversations that we're having at our dinner tables constantly. And I. I just know that these. This is the answer. I just know that this is the answer because I was telling Abby recently, it's like, we're just railing against, you know, hoarding, basically. Hoarding and greed and more, and the Western idea of just, like, conquering and more and just never sitting, never stopping everything being a conquest. And it's like colonialism, even in your life and your. Your.

[Katie Gavin]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like.

[Katie Gavin]

I don't know if you've read the Naomi Klein's doppelganger. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good.

[Katie Gavin]

So good.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's amazing. She's amazing. I know.

[Katie Gavin]

She really is. She's. She's kind of the one. But I feel like she connected a dot for me with, like, this hoarding and this kind of, like, endless, like, defensiveness and, like. And the other side of that being, like, that there is a. There's an existence of this, like, shadowland where, like, the resources that we're hoarding are not present in that place because we're hoarding them and, like, this kind of mindset globally of, like, you're either just this replication of kind of the dynamic of, like, Israel and Palestine.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

That's all it is.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's why no one wants us to talk about that, because it's just a Microcosm of the way we've agreed to run the entire planet. And if we start to actually see that, we will see all of it.

[Katie Gavin]

Yeah. And that it's, like, connected to. There's a. There's a. There's a violence in the mentality of, like, I need to have as much as I can possibly have. Maybe you're not, like, directly starving people or killing people. Maybe you are. Some people are. But, yeah, I think that. I think a lot of us. And I think there's something that is, like, really. It's been tender to talk about it with my family because, like, I think it's scary when you first are learning if you. If you weren't, like, if you didn't grow up in community in, like, an intimate way of, like, relying on each other deeply. It's a. It's hard to learn.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

That you. You don't need to always have more than enough. Like, if you can ask other people for help, you know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Katie Gavin]

But it's like, who wants to do that?

[Glennon Doyle]

We haven't learned to depend on each other because the individualism has taught us, you get what you. You get what you need, and you care for yourself by your own resources. And that has. But it's also very. You know, when I was talking to Abby about how I'm railing against that. This greed and this hoarding, I think what we're being called to by your generation is to not only call that monster out like it's outside of us, but look at that monster inside of us. Because while I'm railing at people for being greedy and hurting each other, I am just beginning to look at my own hoarding and my own individualism. And I also have seen. And we're having these conversations about generational wealth because of this. Because of what you're identifying. But it also, Katie, I'm seeing. It feels like the concept of enough, we just haven't been taught to care about or see any end to it. Like there's any enoughness. But what is really clear now is that the people who can't figure out what enough is, even who have a lot, are refusing to say enough to what's going on in the world. There's a direct correlation between this idea that even our rich friends are so scared to speak out because why? Because you're gonna lose your next opportunity. But you already have, like.

[Emily]

Right.

[Katie Gavin]

You have enough so you can put yourself on the line.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

But if you don't know what enough is, you are not free.

[Katie Gavin]

I was literally almost about to break into Tracy Chapman.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So.

[Emily]

But I feel like it's sort of like addiction or sort of like religion or sort of like this is, this is a. This is not just like a. A 1 degree turn north. This is a whole basis on which we have built lives and nations and empires and generations. And we are taught, like, this is how you keep the baby lizard safe.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Emily]

The baby lizard doesn't have any allies or friends. The baby lizard stays safe this way. And so it's a. And that's really hard to replace when you have no experience or evidence but just testimony that the other way will work. Like when people are in community and feel the safety of community, they believe it, they know it. They know it's far more secure than made up paper.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I mean, hopefully now this is just a. Not this moment.

[Emily]

Right, right, right.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it's not this.

[Katie Gavin]

I know, but it's, it's. It really has been super confounding, like, to see people not be able to like, express outrage and, but also in my, in my life, I think a lot of, you know, most of my friends that have platforms, like, are using their platforms. And I think that it's possible that I might live in a. In a bubble where people are really speaking out and saying free Palestine in a way that maybe you. Y' all are having a different experience in your community.

[Glennon Doyle]

We are having a different experience.

[Katie Gavin]

That's really hard. I have a friend who like, was raised Zionist and has gone through a really amazing transformation, but it's also been painful. And I think, like, I've looked at, to her a lot. This is Hannah Einbinder. I've looked, I've looked to her a lot in terms of like talking to people, because I know like, she has a lot of conversations with people who don't agree with the way that she's speaking out. And she's managed to maintain like, really this stance of like, I will walk with you. I will send you these books. Like, I will be here for you if you, like, come with me on this journey and like, step across the threshold. I know it's scary. I know it's hard. I haven't had like as much experience with. Yeah. People that have been. People that aren't speaking out. I guess maybe that's partially because it's like Muna. You know, we, like Naomi and I, part of the reason we were so close was because we were doing like college activism, you know, and like, we've just always. That's been our community. But I will say that, like, I. I've been on my own journey of, like, I think a big thing for me is using my phone, like, not just as a platform, but as a way to, like, there's like, four or five families that I speak to on a semi regular basis and just like, connecting on a human to human level and being like, what's up? What's going on today? Where are you?

[Glennon Doyle]

You're talking about Palestinian families.

[Katie Gavin]

Palestinian families. And it's not for me, like, I have had to orient my life and my activism in a way that I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's.

[Katie Gavin]

It's not like this is easy. It's not like this is easy to, like, look at in a sustainable way. And I found that for me, having a few people that are gonna message me and say, like, how are you doing, Katie? Like, this is what's going on with me today. Like, that keeps my eyes, like, on this genocide in a way that's sustainable. And also, like, there's other things for me, like, going to direct actions. I don't do it necessarily because it's like. Because I think it's the most effective way to organize, but I do it because I'm the kind of, like, ADHD person where I get such a buzz from being in the streets with other people who, like, believe the same thing that I do. That. That actually keeps me going. I'm a part of resource generation because then I'm accountable to, like, be with people every other Monday who, like, are, like, amazing activists who push me, you know, Like, I have to set up my life in ways that make me less likely to, like, slip away from my values, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I do.

[Amanda]

Good.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like, recovery, Recovery.

[Amanda]

So good.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's another baton situation. We'll just. We need to let you go.

[Abby Wambach]

You have so many things.

[Amanda]

Yeah, my gosh, we're gonna stop.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it does feel all tied to that. Like, you're. You're looking so hard at your little family and what you want to bring and take, and then you're looking so hard at your wider family and what the generation has told you about what, how to live and taking the baton and being like, I've got this. I'll take a little bit and reimagine my own way. Yeah, it's beautiful. Katie, you are so special, and we adore you, like, deeply, and we believe in you. And everyone we love believes in you, and I love you. We all see you and just, you know, when you need anything, just. Just. Just text, come hang out.

[Katie Gavin]

We want to hang out. I'm just dying to hang out.

[Amanda]

Let's hang out.

[Katie Gavin]

I'm frankly dying to hang out.

[Amanda]

Let's hang out.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm so.

[Katie Gavin]

I'm so grateful. I can't believe you had me on this podcast.

[Amanda]

Are you kidding me? This has been my favorite podcast we've ever done.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know.

[Katie Gavin]

I can't believe it. I'm so grateful. Thank you for everything that you all do. Thank you for being, like, such leaders. Thank you, Glennon, for being the femme dom that we.

[Glennon Doyle]

I might curl my hair be the.

[Emily]

Fem don you need in the curl.

[Glennon Doyle]

My hair, but I will you up.

[Abby Wambach]

That's our tagline.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also, you guys, pod squad, we're gonna put all of you're gonna.

[Emily]

This is.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know that this album is gonna be everyone's just constant. So we'll put the album link and all the things people do.

[Amanda]

What a relief. Go get it, Katie. Got it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you, Katie. Go, go, go, go, go. Love you.

[Abby Wambach]

We can do hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at we can do Hard Things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on TikTok.