We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Host: Glennon Doyle (Treat Media), Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Katie Gavin (singer, songwriter, member of MUNA)
Date: October 9, 2025

Overview

This episode features musician and activist Katie Gavin—of MUNA and more recently, solo artist—whose work has profoundly impacted the hosts and their family. Through a conversation full of laughter, honesty, vulnerability, and deep insight, Katie, Glennon, Abby, Amanda, and the crew delve into themes of desire, creativity, recovery, intergenerational healing, and community. Together, they explore how to know what you want—how to listen, bravely, to that kernel of desire within, and how to honor and evolve the batons we inherit from our families and cultures.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Desire and Agency

Katie and the hosts reflect on the challenges many face in identifying what they want, and the guilt or shame that can inhibit desire.
Katie on finding desire:
- “When I look back, I was not a person who could identify what I want or… was in touch with my gut instincts at all. Having MUNA made me accountable.” [29:07]
Glennon on learning by contrast:
- “Maybe identifying desire is a lot like… [being] a sculptor… all they do is they take a rock and then they cut out what isn’t the sculpture.” [30:21]
They discuss how desire can often be discovered through trial, error, and listening for the “not that” moments as much as the “yes.”

2. Recovery, Transformation, and Trust

Katie opens up about her journey in sobriety, recovery, and the slow, sometimes frustrating process of growth.
- “I really underestimated what can change in eight years. If you plant a seed and you can wait, it’s crazy what can happen.” [62:11]
Recovery is linked with learning to trust oneself again—gradually developing the ability to know and act on what you want, versus seeking external validation or safety.

3. Generational Healing—“The Baton”

Katie’s moving song “The Baton” becomes a vessel for discussing generational trauma, healing, pride, and independence, especially among the women in her family.
Emotional reactions erupt as Katie hears Tish (Glennon’s daughter) perform the song:
- "It's really crazy when you're actually in the presence of multiple generations of women. It just makes me be like, I love my mom." [47:00]
They discuss the paradox of striving to be more for each other than is possible, acknowledging both gratitude and limitations of generational inheritance:
- “My mom is really fiercely independent… But it’s because I am the same as you.” [54:30]

4. Expression, Gender, and Femme Dom

A playful but significant segment unpacks what it means to be “femme dom”—a phrase Katie uses to describe Glennon’s energy.
- “To me, femme dom means…I have a strong feminine energy that doesn’t take away from my queerness… The dom part… is just like separating the idea of someone who is feminine needing to take a more passive role in things.” [19:48]
They also discuss the privileges and challenges that come with different gender presentations in queer spaces, and how that impacts safety and advocacy.

5. Community, Individuality, and Collaboration

Katie details the delicate balance between collaborative creation and solo expression—how it felt to step away from MUNA to make her solo record, and how her bandmates responded with support.
- “We all have to take the risk of leaving and growing individually… so that the relationship can stay alive.” [37:59]
Her openness inspires a reflection on the courage needed to change within families/communities without losing those connections.

6. Activism, Enough-ness, and Resource Redistribution

Katie introduces Resource Generation, an org connecting people with inherited wealth to redistribution and justice.
- “I am really interested in privileging having a rich community over having endless resources so I don’t need community.” [77:46]
The hosts and Katie connect capitalist, individualist cultures with everything from war and genocide to personal struggles with “enough.”
- “If you don’t know what enough is, you are not free.” [85:00]
- They reference Naomi Klein’s “Doppelganger” and discuss how hoarding—globally and personally—is symptomatic of this spiritual malaise.

7. Listening to the Body’s Signals

The crew repeatedly circles back to the importance of bodily signals—learning to trust physical intuition about people, places, situations, and relationships.
- “The more I clear away shame, the faster and freer I am to express: this is the message I just got.” [75:18]
"Shadow shame is the ultimate desire killer." [75:22]

8. The Baby Lizard—Innate Knowing

Inspired by Katie’s song “Inconsolable,” they explore the metaphor of the baby lizard:
- “It’s about this idea that there’s something inside us that knows how to move next, that knows how to survive, just like baby lizards who run to the river when no one teaches them.” [67:08]
This taps into discussions about softness, vulnerability, and the bravery to show the "littlest/softest self" in relationships.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

On generational lesbian lineage:
- Glennon: “Put a group of old lesbians in a room and...they’re gonna bitch about the next generation...until somebody says, Katie Gavin. And then all the old lesbians go: yes. Respect.” [05:07]
On “femme dom”:
- Katie: "You've really claimed the agency to be—I'm going to create the life that I want for myself, and I'm going to create a community around me that feels so good. I want that for all my people, too…I'm like, that's a dom. You're just doming it." [19:48]
On artistic individuality:
- Katie: “Art, to me, I’m amazed when people can do it collectively.…How do we find community and work and life where we can be held and free? Held and free. Held and free.” [35:30]
On desire’s guidance:
- Glennon: “All I care about is not suffering through the not that for too long.” [30:21]
On addiction:
- Katie: “My sponsor calls it the treadmill in the cosmos… We have this entire universe around us… and we put ourselves on a treadmill, and the numbers tell us if we're good or bad… I need to make things small and binary.” [64:49]
On the intergenerational baton:
- Tish (performing "The Baton"): “I would tell my daughter she must be her own mother / ’cause I can only take her as far as I can go…” [45:06]
- Glennon: “They fought so you could hump, and it was so worth it, Katie.” [18:30]
On hoarding and enough:
- Glennon: “If you don’t know what enough is, you are not free.” [85:01]
- “I am just beginning to look at my own hoarding and my own individualism… The concept of enough—we just haven’t been taught to care about or see any end to it.” [84:57]

Timestamps for Key Segments

00:40 – Episode purpose: desire, courage, intergenerational healing, recovery, activism
05:07 – Lesbian lineage humor and generational respect
10:33 – Roller skate metaphor and seeking joy
14:20 – Generational envy & queer self-expression (“sexuality” as freedom)
29:07 – Katie on learning to identify desire
33:58 – Noticing the "not that" in creativity (co-writing struggles)
37:57 – MUNA, collaboration, and solo work; creative individuation
44:40 – "The Baton" is performed by Tish; generational healing
54:30 – Conversations with mom about independence and inheritance
62:11 – On recovery, underestimating what can change with time
64:49 – Addiction described as making your internal world smaller
67:08 – “Baby lizard” metaphor for inner knowing and instinct
75:18 – Learning to trust body signals, clearing shame
77:46 – Resource Generation, inherited wealth, and community
85:00 – The concept of “enough” and freedom from hoarding
86:59 – Speaking out, activism, community accountability

Tone and Language

The conversation is heartfelt, irreverent, wise, deeply personal, and at times, hilarious. There is an undercurrent of mutual adoration, allyship, and radical honesty as the hosts and Katie challenge and validate each other’s experiences. Vulnerability is met with safety and celebration, and humor alleviates the weight of the episode’s big existential themes.

For Further Listening & Action

MUNA and Katie Gavin's solo album What a Relief
Resource Generation (resourcegeneration.org)
Naomi Klein's Doppelganger
Explore your own “baton”—write, sing, or talk about what you want to carry forward, and what you want to let go, from your own lineage.

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Host: Glennon Doyle (Treat Media), Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Katie Gavin (singer, songwriter, member of MUNA)
Date: October 9, 2025

Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Desire and Agency

Katie and the hosts reflect on the challenges many face in identifying what they want, and the guilt or shame that can inhibit desire.
Katie on finding desire:
- “When I look back, I was not a person who could identify what I want or… was in touch with my gut instincts at all. Having MUNA made me accountable.” [29:07]
Glennon on learning by contrast:
- “Maybe identifying desire is a lot like… [being] a sculptor… all they do is they take a rock and then they cut out what isn’t the sculpture.” [30:21]
They discuss how desire can often be discovered through trial, error, and listening for the “not that” moments as much as the “yes.”

2. Recovery, Transformation, and Trust

Katie opens up about her journey in sobriety, recovery, and the slow, sometimes frustrating process of growth.
- “I really underestimated what can change in eight years. If you plant a seed and you can wait, it’s crazy what can happen.” [62:11]
Recovery is linked with learning to trust oneself again—gradually developing the ability to know and act on what you want, versus seeking external validation or safety.

3. Generational Healing—“The Baton”

Katie’s moving song “The Baton” becomes a vessel for discussing generational trauma, healing, pride, and independence, especially among the women in her family.
Emotional reactions erupt as Katie hears Tish (Glennon’s daughter) perform the song:
- "It's really crazy when you're actually in the presence of multiple generations of women. It just makes me be like, I love my mom." [47:00]
They discuss the paradox of striving to be more for each other than is possible, acknowledging both gratitude and limitations of generational inheritance:
- “My mom is really fiercely independent… But it’s because I am the same as you.” [54:30]

4. Expression, Gender, and Femme Dom

A playful but significant segment unpacks what it means to be “femme dom”—a phrase Katie uses to describe Glennon’s energy.
- “To me, femme dom means…I have a strong feminine energy that doesn’t take away from my queerness… The dom part… is just like separating the idea of someone who is feminine needing to take a more passive role in things.” [19:48]
They also discuss the privileges and challenges that come with different gender presentations in queer spaces, and how that impacts safety and advocacy.

5. Community, Individuality, and Collaboration

Katie details the delicate balance between collaborative creation and solo expression—how it felt to step away from MUNA to make her solo record, and how her bandmates responded with support.
- “We all have to take the risk of leaving and growing individually… so that the relationship can stay alive.” [37:59]
Her openness inspires a reflection on the courage needed to change within families/communities without losing those connections.

6. Activism, Enough-ness, and Resource Redistribution

Katie introduces Resource Generation, an org connecting people with inherited wealth to redistribution and justice.
- “I am really interested in privileging having a rich community over having endless resources so I don’t need community.” [77:46]
The hosts and Katie connect capitalist, individualist cultures with everything from war and genocide to personal struggles with “enough.”
- “If you don’t know what enough is, you are not free.” [85:00]
- They reference Naomi Klein’s “Doppelganger” and discuss how hoarding—globally and personally—is symptomatic of this spiritual malaise.

7. Listening to the Body’s Signals

The crew repeatedly circles back to the importance of bodily signals—learning to trust physical intuition about people, places, situations, and relationships.
- “The more I clear away shame, the faster and freer I am to express: this is the message I just got.” [75:18]
"Shadow shame is the ultimate desire killer." [75:22]

8. The Baby Lizard—Innate Knowing

Inspired by Katie’s song “Inconsolable,” they explore the metaphor of the baby lizard:
- “It’s about this idea that there’s something inside us that knows how to move next, that knows how to survive, just like baby lizards who run to the river when no one teaches them.” [67:08]
This taps into discussions about softness, vulnerability, and the bravery to show the "littlest/softest self" in relationships.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

On generational lesbian lineage:
- Glennon: “Put a group of old lesbians in a room and...they’re gonna bitch about the next generation...until somebody says, Katie Gavin. And then all the old lesbians go: yes. Respect.” [05:07]
On “femme dom”:
- Katie: "You've really claimed the agency to be—I'm going to create the life that I want for myself, and I'm going to create a community around me that feels so good. I want that for all my people, too…I'm like, that's a dom. You're just doming it." [19:48]
On artistic individuality:
- Katie: “Art, to me, I’m amazed when people can do it collectively.…How do we find community and work and life where we can be held and free? Held and free. Held and free.” [35:30]
On desire’s guidance:
- Glennon: “All I care about is not suffering through the not that for too long.” [30:21]
On addiction:
- Katie: “My sponsor calls it the treadmill in the cosmos… We have this entire universe around us… and we put ourselves on a treadmill, and the numbers tell us if we're good or bad… I need to make things small and binary.” [64:49]
On the intergenerational baton:
- Tish (performing "The Baton"): “I would tell my daughter she must be her own mother / ’cause I can only take her as far as I can go…” [45:06]
- Glennon: “They fought so you could hump, and it was so worth it, Katie.” [18:30]
On hoarding and enough:
- Glennon: “If you don’t know what enough is, you are not free.” [85:01]
- “I am just beginning to look at my own hoarding and my own individualism… The concept of enough—we just haven’t been taught to care about or see any end to it.” [84:57]

Timestamps for Key Segments

00:40 – Episode purpose: desire, courage, intergenerational healing, recovery, activism
05:07 – Lesbian lineage humor and generational respect
10:33 – Roller skate metaphor and seeking joy
14:20 – Generational envy & queer self-expression (“sexuality” as freedom)
29:07 – Katie on learning to identify desire
33:58 – Noticing the "not that" in creativity (co-writing struggles)
37:57 – MUNA, collaboration, and solo work; creative individuation
44:40 – "The Baton" is performed by Tish; generational healing
54:30 – Conversations with mom about independence and inheritance
62:11 – On recovery, underestimating what can change with time
64:49 – Addiction described as making your internal world smaller
67:08 – “Baby lizard” metaphor for inner knowing and instinct
75:18 – Learning to trust body signals, clearing shame
77:46 – Resource Generation, inherited wealth, and community
85:00 – The concept of “enough” and freedom from hoarding
86:59 – Speaking out, activism, community accountability

Tone and Language

For Further Listening & Action

MUNA and Katie Gavin's solo album What a Relief
Resource Generation (resourcegeneration.org)
Naomi Klein's Doppelganger
Explore your own “baton”—write, sing, or talk about what you want to carry forward, and what you want to let go, from your own lineage.

wavePod

Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Desire and Agency

2. Recovery, Transformation, and Trust

3. Generational Healing—“The Baton”

4. Expression, Gender, and Femme Dom

5. Community, Individuality, and Collaboration

6. Activism, Enough-ness, and Resource Redistribution

7. Listening to the Body’s Signals

8. The Baby Lizard—Innate Knowing

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

Timestamps for Key Segments

Tone and Language

For Further Listening & Action

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Desire and Agency

2. Recovery, Transformation, and Trust

3. Generational Healing—“The Baton”

4. Expression, Gender, and Femme Dom

5. Community, Individuality, and Collaboration

6. Activism, Enough-ness, and Resource Redistribution

7. Listening to the Body’s Signals

8. The Baby Lizard—Innate Knowing

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

Timestamps for Key Segments

Tone and Language

For Further Listening & Action