← We Can Do Hard Things
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- [00:00]
Glennon Doyle
I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think ALMA is so cool. ALMA connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that that level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a l m a.com hardthings.
- [01:06]
Abby Wambach
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- [02:19]
Glennon Doyle
Welcome to Week can do hard things. I have a very special place in my heart for women who artfully and relentlessly tell the truth about their lives.
- [02:33]
Abby Wambach
This one, this one is right.
- [02:36]
Glennon Doyle
This one that we have with us today is as cheetahish as a goddamn cheetah gets. You may have heard of her. Her name is Kelly Clarkson.
- [02:47]
Abby Wambach
Yep, heard of her.
- [02:48]
Glennon Doyle
Hi Kelly.
- [02:49]
Kelly Clarkson
I've never heard of her. Never heard of her.
- [02:53]
Glennon Doyle
She should have worn my cheetah necklace.
- [02:55]
Kelly Clarkson
I'm moving to New York so all my jewelry is packed. I should have worn my My cheetah necklace for you. I made one.
- [03:00]
Glennon Doyle
I can't believe that you have a cheetah necklace.
- [03:03]
Kelly Clarkson
No, you don't understand. I know we've talked about this a little bit on my show, but I cannot tell you the timing. My nanny handing me that book. Me reading it the fastest I've ever read a book. Me getting to the part where it was like, would you want your child in this relationship? And sobbing uncontrollably while they're both in my bed and I'm in my bathroom on the floor. Like a scene. Like, it was a scene. And it just was, you know, things come at the right time. Cause I was struggling, and it just came at the right time, like. And she's given me, you know, tons of, like, book ideas, like, to read. We're all avid readers in our group, so. But I've never once been like that. Cause we love very different books. Usually she likes, like, someone's died and they're. They're looking for them. She likes those kind of books. But I'm like, I don't want death. I'm like, I'm good.
- [03:54]
Glennon Doyle
Life is hard enough. I need something to help me not add more problems to my life.
- [03:58]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. So good.
- [03:59]
Glennon Doyle
Your group. Someone in a group gave it to.
- [04:01]
Kelly Clarkson
We have, like a. Yeah, like my. It's my. My mom, my sister. There's Ava, Tricia, Al. There's such a bunch of us that, like, we like reading different things or listening to. We're all very different, but somehow our crazy crew works. Even my mother. I was just with my mother and sister in Montana, and she just started losing it over this toast. I was like, I'm gonna let her have the moment on the toast.
- [04:28]
Glennon Doyle
Toast.
- [04:29]
Kelly Clarkson
And, like, bread. Yes. Because it kept burning. The toaster kept burning her toast. And she was. Just wanted some toast, and it just wasn't happening. And it was obviously more than the toast that was happening.
- [04:38]
Glennon Doyle
It always is.
- [04:40]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. I was like, this is bigger than the toast. But anyway, it was just funny. But we're like that group that can also be like, so are you good? Or we should talk about it. I think we're all just to a certain age to where there's no bullshit. So. Yeah. So it's nice. But we're all very different. So that's also very funny, isn't it?
- [04:57]
Glennon Doyle
A gift of getting older is having relationships where there's no bullshit. Oh, my God.
- [05:02]
Kelly Clarkson
Yes.
- [05:03]
Glennon Doyle
I take time. Okay, so take us back. So you. Because we've. My sister and I listen to chemistry. We Were in a hotel by ourselves.
- [05:10]
Kelly Clarkson
The whole album, the whole thing. I thought you'd only heard the three songs. No.
- [05:15]
Glennon Doyle
We got a secret.
- [05:16]
Kelly Clarkson
I'm so happy right now.
- [05:17]
Glennon Doyle
I begged. I begged for a link. We got a secret link from some secret people. Sister and I sat in the hotel room, blasted. Like, we haven't done since maybe we were in seventh grade. Sissy.
- [05:30]
Kelly Clarkson
Oh, my God, I love this.
- [05:32]
Glennon Doyle
We were, like, looking at each other, like, weeping. And then we were, like.
- [05:36]
Amanda Doyle
We kept, like, stopping it during certain lyrics and being like, oh, my.
- [05:39]
Kelly Clarkson
Oh, my God. My God.
- [05:40]
Amanda Doyle
We were going back. And then, like.
- [05:43]
Glennon Doyle
It was a journey, Kelly.
- [05:45]
Kelly Clarkson
Awesome.
- [05:45]
Glennon Doyle
It was a journey for us.
- [05:47]
Kelly Clarkson
It's a journey, right though. It's a roller coaster. It's funny that you listened to it. I don't know if you listened to it straight through, but we. We did.
- [05:52]
Glennon Doyle
We did.
- [05:53]
Kelly Clarkson
So we. I went back and forth about that because I was like, well, maybe I just start at the beginning of the relationship and just kind of, you know, accordingly, like, do. Do each song. But it didn't make sense. Like, sonically, it was odd. So I was like, you know what? The whole thing was a roller coaster. It's fine if the sequencing is that, but I definitely wanted to start with can I skip this part? Which is maybe one of the saddest songs I've ever written. But that's how you feel when you go through something. I know we can do hard things. That's why we're here right now. But sometimes you don't want to do it.
- [06:22]
Glennon Doyle
You never do, and you just want to.
- [06:24]
Amanda Doyle
You just rarely do.
- [06:25]
Kelly Clarkson
Go right to the end where people are like, you're going to be happy one day.
- [06:29]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. We call it trying to skip the crucifixion and go straight to the resurrection, which. That is, like, never the way of life.
- [06:36]
Kelly Clarkson
Exact.
- [06:37]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [06:38]
Kelly Clarkson
It doesn't work.
- [06:39]
Glennon Doyle
But I love that it wasn't in order because it feels like that, too. Feelings don't. They're not clean and linear. The beginning, middle, end and post of a relationship is like everything everywhere all at once.
- [06:50]
Kelly Clarkson
Right.
- [06:50]
Glennon Doyle
It's like you feel it all. It's so beautiful. So there's no post. There's no post, really, is there? There's just the new you.
- [06:58]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. Yeah. Which is why it kind of ends with. That's right. So the song with Sheila E. That we got her to perform, which I was so excited, that's kind of the, like, Stella Got Her Groove Back song for me. Yes. That's the song where it's just like, Okay. I was like, it's all right. It's gonna be good. And I liked ending with that and starting with on the Floor Crying. But it's. Yeah, it's definitely a rollercoaster.
- [07:26]
Glennon Doyle
So take us back to on the floor Crying. Because everyone on Earth knows the on the Floor Crying. I used to say people say that God is everywhere, but I think that God is in the bathroom because of the moments of rock bottom I've had on bathroom floors. That's like my old trash.
- [07:41]
Kelly Clarkson
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's me, too. You just said it. My lowest point in life was actually after the show in Irvine and years ago, like, 2000, I don't know, five. Something like that. I can't remember at my lowest point I've ever been at, and it was in a bathroom. And honestly, it's the one place you can escape from. From everyone. No one bothers you there. Especially if you're, like, even lying going, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, for real. They really won't bother you?
- [08:10]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [08:11]
Kelly Clarkson
You know, so it's just like.
- [08:12]
Glennon Doyle
And the longer. Leave me alone. The longer you in there, the less they'll bother you.
- [08:16]
Kelly Clarkson
Yes, I know, I know. I think that's the place where you find. Where people tend to leave you alone. So, yeah, it was the one place that. That amphitheater. And that is true. I've never thought of that before, but that was a moment for me.
- [08:30]
Amanda Doyle
Why was that your lowest moment?
- [08:32]
Kelly Clarkson
So I had this thing, and it since then, still been working on the same thing. Just love to, you know, live in a cyclical. Cyclical pattern. But anyway, so I was very sad. I was having a very hard time with certain people in my life that personally, in business, just everywhere. It was kind of like. And it was like my heyday for me. Like, it was like the third tour we've done on that Breakaway album. I was very tired. I'd had walking pneumonia twice. I was just beat. Nobody cared. They just literally were pumped. Not nobody, but no one that counted that made the schedule or did anything cared. And so I'm a total Southern girl and a very hard worker. And I've always been taught to, like. I mean, even in sports growing up, you know, you're like, no, you can push yourself further than you think. I've always been that person. So I just pushed and pushed, and there were very unhealthy people around me, like, in their own lives, like, very unhealthy. And everyone on the coattails, if I'm being blunt, was just draining me. And there was nowhere to go. Like, home wasn't great. Business wasn't great. Even on the road, like, the only place I feel at one point turn around and go, wow. The only place I actually feel safe or heard is when I'm on stage doing a show. That's a really big problem. So. Yeah, so that's a problem. So that was the lowest I've ever been cut to years of still thinking I could. You know, there's, like, this song I have called Sober. It's Pick the weeds and keep the flowers. And so basically I started, you know, getting. Tending my garden and trying to, like, get people out that aren't bad people. Just not good for me. But I have this thing where. Which is obviously a. Hadn't done enough therapy at this point to realize where things just kind of come back up, especially if you haven't addressed them or if you think you've gotten through it. But I haven't. And so I just. Yeah, for years, even until this relationship that's on this record, like, there's still things that are just these cyclical patterns. It's like, when am I gonna learn? Like, when is it gonna be the time you actually learn? And not just learn of it, but learn of it and actually change it, like. Cause it's very hard to change those patterns, especially that are built in from childhood, you know? So, yeah, cut to a lot of bathroom floor.
- [10:56]
Glennon Doyle
Bathroom floors. So you read this part of Untamed. I think it's the one that you're referring to where I had this moment where I realized I was staying in the relationship for my little girl. But would I want this relationship for my little girl? And if not, then why am I staying. Staying in this and calling it good mothering when really it's bad modeling?
- [11:18]
Kelly Clarkson
Which is kind of, like, tricky because even I've had friends come to me after three. Now this is like three years this month or maybe to like, this week or last week. Three years, like, since our separation. Right. And I read that, and I know that to be true for me, like, even watching my mother in two different marriages, there's things you pick up on even as a kid that you're like, this is unhealthy. Right? So, like, an environment to live in. It was one of those things. When I read it, I definitely was still on the not fence, but I just. I kept the tug of, like, loving someone so deeply and the tug of, like, really needing to love yourself as much or more. And it was like, I just don't know if I can do this while still trying to do this anymore. But then it's interesting because you think about your kids, right? And you're like, oh, man. Like, I wonder, like, how is this gonna affect them? I remember how it affected me. And he has also been through divorces with his family. So I just. I was like, ugh, nobody wants that, right? So you try and you try and you try, but then you figure out, well, I don't want them growing up with this unhealthy. But I'm gonna be honest with you. I've had people come to me that are going through divorce or going through really hard relationships with kids. It doesn't matter either way. You go, your kids still have a hard time. It doesn't matter if you stay. It doesn't matter if you go. It's. I am still having conversations three years later, like, my kids just came back from my ex. And it's always like, you know, anytime there's mention of, like, maybe him being with somebody else, or anytime. I mean, they are just really adamant about keeping that dream alive that we might still be together one day, like, and still, like. And we are never around each other. So it's. It doesn't matter either way. Both are hard, so. But when people say, well, was it better in the end? I'm like, I don't know that it's better in the end either way is hard. I think it comes down to you. It's like, I don't know if I can keep holding up all of this. And that's what I feel like I'm having to do. And I'm a better mother. I can say that, like, after. I'm a far better mother. Because I think when you're honest with yourself, you're able to be honest with others, but sometimes you don't know that you're necessarily lying to yourself. Love is tricky. It really convinces you that you're doing the right thing, or, this is what you should do. It's just a very hard thing when you love someone so deeply, to separate that and to have the right answer, which I don't. When my kids ask me sometimes, I'm like, I can't give you that whole story. Like, this is your separate relationship with your father. You know, I'm saying, this is mine, this is yours. And it drives my daughter, who is far beyond all of us. I'm just like, oh, my God, I'm not ready for this conversation. She's very inquisitive. She's very smart. She catches everything. I cannot leave a hint of sarcasm on the floor. I can't do anything. I have to be so on top of it.
- [14:14]
Glennon Doyle
I like her.
- [14:15]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. Trying to do the right kind of hard, like trying to decide between what's the right hard is like one of the hardest things about parenting.
- [14:23]
Kelly Clarkson
And in general. Even like this move, we're all moving to New York. Like there's people that can come to go. In general, it's doing the hard thing. Like it's which hard thing? They're both crappy. Yes.
- [14:33]
Glennon Doyle
But I appreciate that about you so much because I think that people, it's like they go the opposite fairy tale like we used to be taught. If you stay together all happy, happily ever after, and there's your redemption story. And then people went the other way. Like now I broke it off because that was the right thing for me. And now I have to make that the perfect happy ending. And neither are true. They're both extremely messy and they both have challenges and blessings with them. And you just pick your heart.
- [15:13]
Amanda Doyle
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- [16:05]
Abby Wambach
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- [17:10]
Amanda Doyle
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- [18:14]
Abby Wambach
I want to ask you about the song mine on your new album. It's one of the songs that have been released already. Yeah, this song, like, gutted me because you wrote I don't know why I stayed as long as I stayed. And boy do I get that.
- [18:32]
Glennon Doyle
We all do.
- [18:33]
Abby Wambach
Boy do I get that. Why did you stay as long as you stayed?
- [18:37]
Kelly Clarkson
But that's hindsight, right? So it's like when you're in it. And I think also our ego, like our mine, like my ego, I'm like, I can do this. I can handle so much. My ego is like, I can. I can control my actions, I can control my reactions. I can, I can do this and I can reach this person and I can get through and I can. And it becomes a little bit of your ego that gets in the way. And also, if I'm being completely honest, we don't want to do what we saw done. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, ugh, I don't want my kids to be those kids at school. Like, you know, because I grew up and it's a little different. They grew up here. It's a very progressive city. And even New York, that's progressive and. But in the south, there were like two of us with divorced parents in our class, so it was Very different. And even, like, when you come down to, like, daddy daughter dances and you don't have anyone show up and, like, he lives far. There's been things that happen, like, even in my kid's school, and it's like, you have to think of all those things. And I think you play it out differently in your head, too. You try so hard. Like, I do not want to do that to her. I don't want to do that to him. That you start never thinking about yourself. And that's. Honestly, sometimes to be selfish for me was very important because I'm never. I'm rarely selfish. It's been beaten into me since childhood. Like, to have a servant's heart, it's very hard for me to take that and go, I need this. Like, and then it's funny because if you're not like that, then it's almost like you're, like, aggressive about it. When you do dating, you're like, I need it. Yeah, because you have to be aggressive because you've. You've been letting it sit so long that you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I need to aggressively tell you right now, this is not working. Like, I don't know why we do that.
- [20:22]
Abby Wambach
Well, you got to hold your boundary. And sometimes if. Especially if it's hard to create the boundaries to begin with, when you actually do one, you're like, I'm doing it.
- [20:31]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah, better. Listen, this is the line. This is the line. Yeah. You're like, yeah, no, I am better. I should say I am far better at boundaries now. But we have this joke in our group because I'm around a lot of Scorpios, and I feel like Scorpios are very, like, just no bullshit. Like, this is what's happening, and this is what you just said, and that's actually what you meant. They see everything. I have friends and my sister's Scorpio, too. They just see right through it. And all I see is a sea of potential.
- [21:03]
Glennon Doyle
Oh, like, ooh, scary, Scary.
- [21:05]
Kelly Clarkson
Just a sea of. Oh, that's not what they meant. They probably meant this. Or they probably. No, you don't know. Like, maybe they were having a rough day, and, like, maybe they didn't normally. That's not, like, probably what they do. I can't think of that. Like, I am that person.
- [21:18]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, you're painting those red flags green.
- [21:20]
Glennon Doyle
You're just painting them, girl. And you believe in the opposite of the Dr. Maya Angelou quote. So it's like when people tell you who they are. Do not believe them.
- [21:30]
Kelly Clarkson
I am literally the opposite. Like, my quote would be, when people show you who they are, it might not be who they are. It just might be who they are today. Like, every. And I think it boils down to, I have to believe in change. If I don't believe in change, I will just go, so Zero Dark Thirty. I will literally get so depressed. I will get so bogged down, and I just feel everything. So I have to believe that everyone's capable of change now. Most people in my group do not believe that most people can change, and that's fine. I don't collect red flags anymore. I definitely look at them and go, this is a red flag. Or I'm just doing the same thing. Right. Okay, cool. Like, you, I at least recognize it. But it's a very hard thing to give that up because it's also a beautiful thing to see. I know potential in people. And it's also a beautiful thing to not give up, because you hear those stories, too, of, like, this person didn't give up on me. And then I finally felt love for the first time. I finally. Because people that are like that, that just haven't seen light in a while, right? Like, people that are like that, it's because they forgot what it looks like, you know, I feel like they just forgot. I don't know. Where do you think comes from?
- [22:42]
Abby Wambach
Where do you think that that part of you comes from?
- [22:45]
Kelly Clarkson
I think, honestly, religion, like, growing up. I think when you go to church at that young of an age. Here's the thing. I. I love spirituality. I think religion can be confusing, but I love being spiritual. And I had a really great. And it's actually.
- [23:02]
Glennon Doyle
Okay.
- [23:05]
Kelly Clarkson
Let'S take a drink. Okay.
- [23:07]
Glennon Doyle
Yes. Whatever.
- [23:08]
Kelly Clarkson
You.
- [23:09]
Abby Wambach
I learned in jail that you can't cry and drink water at the same time. She did for my mug shot.
- [23:15]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. The kids learned in jail.
- [23:17]
Glennon Doyle
The sweet person who was taking her mug shot, she was crying so hard that they told her, take some water. She said, I'm not thirsty. And they said, no, you stop crying.
- [23:26]
Kelly Clarkson
It does. It cuts it off. No. And why that just happened is, oh, my God, I'm gonna get this out. It doesn't help that, like, it's Margaret Monthly right now, so that's not helpful for me. But anyway, I like. Look, I'm sorry. Tmi. No, I just. It happened the other day at the Voice. I was leaving the Voice, and my mother, she'll text me things like sometimes that I thought was referring to the show. Like, why did you turn for that person or why did you. You know, like, that kind of thing, or. Or, like, oh, that was a great performance. Something like that. And I looked and. So his name was Dr. Frankie Rainey, and he was a pastor. Oh, my God. I'm trying to get this out. Anyway, so he was one of those guys, like, I didn't have a dad, and he would have. He would, like, cut out clippings and send them to me. Mail them to me. The letter, like, and just say, like, really kind things. Jesus, take the wheel.
- [24:25]
Abby Wambach
We're right here with you. We're with you.
- [24:27]
Kelly Clarkson
I've had pastors before, and I've had people that weren't so great in a church environment, because it's not a perfect environment by any means. But I just mean, for the most part, that's been kind of detrimental for the most part. Like, people around me, not great things happened. But this one individual, he was just a really good man. So.
- [24:52]
Glennon Doyle
So he represents it for you. He represents spirituality and religion and all of that to you.
- [24:59]
Kelly Clarkson
He represents what I love about it. Like, this sounds horrible, but I've never come across one marriage that I've. I want that. Like, I just really haven't. Like, I'm going to be honest with you in my life, like, not like, seeing people that I don't know, like, on the regular. I mean, like, in my life, I've never been. Like, that's what I want up close. So true. Yeah. Like, the real. The. Like, I'm like. I don't know. That seems real difficult and not fun and happy. It's kind of like that, like, with him. I just saw he. He is what I felt like whenever I read those words in Sunday school or church or we're going through the sermon, that rang true for me. It was like, he was such a great example of a man, of a leader of all those things. Anyway, so he passed away anyway.
- [25:44]
Glennon Doyle
Is that what your mom.
- [25:45]
Kelly Clarkson
Here we go.
- [25:46]
Glennon Doyle
And your mom was telling you that.
- [25:48]
Kelly Clarkson
Thank you. Get it out. Get it out, Glennon. I can get it out. Yes. That's what she texted me. And I was just. Just really sad about that. But I grew up, like, watching someone like that. I'm gonna get it out.
- [26:03]
Glennon Doyle
No, I get it.
- [26:04]
Kelly Clarkson
So for a person that hasn't experienced that kind of love, to be shown that.
- [26:08]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [26:09]
Kelly Clarkson
And then you change.
- [26:11]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [26:12]
Kelly Clarkson
And that's how you change.
- [26:14]
Amanda Doyle
Do you think you change as a result of that love?
- [26:17]
Kelly Clarkson
Oh, my God. 100. And that's why I'm this crazy person that always does this. Like, and this is why. Because I know it can happen.
- [26:26]
Glennon Doyle
Do you ever wonder if. Because I think sometimes we think, oh, I have all this hope and because I have this hope and I see the best in people, I'm fucking things up. But do you ever wonder if, like, you're doing things exactly the way that you're supposed to?
- [26:43]
Kelly Clarkson
I think at some point we all do what we think is good and right and beneficial for everyone. And sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, I don't know. I feel like it's a beautiful thing to see that hope. But I also think if you heard the song Lighthouse on the album coming.
- [27:02]
Amanda Doyle
At you, coming in hot with Lighthouse.
- [27:04]
Kelly Clarkson
Kelly Clark coming in.
- [27:05]
Glennon Doyle
We heard it like, we wrote it, Kelly. We heard it like, we wrote it literally.
- [27:09]
Kelly Clarkson
But it's like we were never. It was just never going to happen. That was the song where I finally not gave up on it, but gave up on that part. I gave up on this is never going to happen. Like, that is the song where I got off the fence and was like, okay, like, I can't. I'm going to drown. Yeah, this is not going to be good, like, for anyone.
- [27:32]
Glennon Doyle
How do you know? Because you have Christianity in your background. You have. You just said sports, you have Southern, you have a lot of cultures you come from that revel in suffering. Because if you believe in hope and you're a Christian person and you have that in your head, I know from experience that hope is right after the suffering. So it's like, how do we know? I mean, I had a friend the other day that was at our house that was like, so, you know, my therapist was talking about how suffering means stop, so blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm sorry, what did you just say? Yeah, suffering means stop. I thought suffering means I'm on the right track.
- [28:08]
Amanda Doyle
You're almost there.
- [28:09]
Kelly Clarkson
You're almost there.
- [28:11]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:11]
Kelly Clarkson
And it also means that it matters.
- [28:13]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [28:14]
Kelly Clarkson
For me, like, it also means that whatever. Whatever impacts you that deeply matters. Deeply. So. So I. I don't know. I can't actually recall the exact situation, but I think there comes a point to where you just feel so beat up, like, by life, by circumstance, by yourself, by others. You're like, I have nothing to give. And I think the point comes. I will say the main reason for that is I can't even focus on us anymore because we have these two little humans here that are counting on us and, like, I gotta get better. Like, for them. Like, we gotta make this better for them, at least if we're not gonna, you know, make it for us. So it's. I think. I think probably kids that probably did it.
- [29:04]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [29:06]
Kelly Clarkson
And honestly not. I'm not saying this because you're here, honestly reading those words and on that bathroom floor, like, that was one. That was all around the same time that I wrote Lighthouse. That all of that. All those songs were written, like, three years ago. So that was one of the major things, is reading that and going, oh, my God. Like, I would never want my daughter or son in this relationship. Like, I. Obviously, I would hope for, like, way better for them, you know, in a far better kind of love. Yeah. So.
- [29:35]
Glennon Doyle
So then you think, I want you to love myself as much as clearly I love them. And it's so weird that that's literally what my therapist.
- [29:42]
Kelly Clarkson
I think one of the first things started about. She was like, if you. If you could just treat yourself how you treat others. Like, you know. And I was like, oh, okay. Hard truth. I was like, okay, well, that's all for today. Like, so I'm just gonna swallow that pill. It's gonna be fine. I guess I don't ever know, too, if you're doing it right or wrong. You just. You feel like you're doing it, you know, how you should be doing it. And I don't know, maybe we're fucking it up. Like, I don't know. But you're trying not to. And that's all you can do is try with all the information you have. But I'm honest with my kids, too. Not honest about anything with me and my ex, but honest about life. I think one of the best things my therapist told me was. Cause I kept trying to hide it. I would try and run and hide somewhere anytime. I would just get overwhelmed, and I needed to, like, cry. And she was like, why are you hiding? Obviously don't do it all the time, but, like, it's normal for your kids to see you.
- [30:37]
Glennon Doyle
That's right.
- [30:37]
Kelly Clarkson
First of all, care that this is happening, and it's affecting you, and it's not an easy thing. And I think that was a really good lesson for me to learn. Cause obviously, like, look at my job, my vocation in general. Like, even I spent all of COVID going through hell privately trying to make America smile on my ranch in the snow.
- [30:54]
Glennon Doyle
Hell, yeah.
- [30:55]
Kelly Clarkson
While trying to record a song in six different languages and doing all these other things. It was hell. Like, that Covid was hell. And I just had to keep smiling. And, you know, so I'm very good at that. So. Because I've trained myself, but it's not healthy. So it was a very good lesson. I think to learn from my therapist was like, it's okay for them sometimes to see you struggling. That's life. They need to see that. And I'm like, why do we protect them from that? I don't know why we do that.
- [31:23]
Abby Wambach
But also, P.S. same with the world. You're like such a lighthouse that, like, it's also, I think, okay, and, you know, TV shows are going to be TV shows, but to know that other people are struggling makes people feel less alone, you know?
- [31:38]
Kelly Clarkson
And honestly, you just nailed why I even released this album. Because I, you know, I'm like 41. I've got a whole other job right now. I don't need to necessarily do that. First of all, I just did it for me therapeutically. That's how I get through things. It's almost like how I. I'm like, what am I thinking? That's how I figure it out. Or where I'm at is writing. And so I did it selfishly at first. And then the last few years have been really hard on a lot of people. I think that that's true. Like any kind of art, I think that's how you connect with people and how you don't feel isolated. So I think that rings true. What you.
- [32:17]
Glennon Doyle
Foreign.
- [32:21]
Amanda Doyle
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- [35:24]
Amanda Doyle
I was, I was wondering. You were talking about Lighthouse and there's a line in that where you say it's such a shame when our wants and needs don't align. That's what it's like.
- [35:37]
Kelly Clarkson
And that's when the song I Hate Love comes in too. Because it's literally that you can love someone so much, but it doesn't change what's happening. Like you know what I'm saying? It doesn't change the issues, it doesn't change the problems. It doesn't help in any way. It's not that powerful turns out. And it's funny, you know you mentioned earlier when you were like, oh, cause you're a lighthouse. So ego. When I first started writing Lighthouse, it was because people Always. Ever since I was a kid. Or they're like, oh, you're such a light. People have always said that to me. Right. Well, when you hear that as a kid, you feel like you kind of. It's almost like your duty. Then, like, when you're a kid, you're like, oh, I gotta. Yeah. You're like, okay, well, I gotta be a light. I gotta be funny. I gotta be talkative. I gotta make everyone happy. So then it's like your thing that you're kind of known for, like, from early on, which is super unhealthy. But it's funny because you learn about yourself, too. So in Lighthouse, not only figuring out about my relationship, but also me, it turns out I wasn't the lighthouse. Like, I started writing that. I was like, you almost got all my light. But it turns out we both were out here drowning. The lighthouse is up there. I don't know who that is, but wasn't me. And it's like your ego gets in check. And you're like, okay. And you're like, I'm not even that. We're both out here in the dark, just treading water, and we're not finding each other and we're not getting there. But it's interesting. Cause then it makes you think about all those things that, like, you put on yourself once again, like, from childhood that you don't even. You didn't even realize you did, you know?
- [37:05]
Amanda Doyle
Yes. I want to ask about that light because I was married before, and I. I resonate so deeply with when you. When you say in lighthouse, how you almost lost your light, and it was so slow and so imperceptible that I didn't even realize it at the time. Like, I just kind of folded myself into him. And I thought that I was happy. And I didn't even know till I was out of it how truly sick I was in it.
- [37:38]
Kelly Clarkson
Yep. I mean, you didn't even know. Like, even all the things that you accepted as that's normal, are incredibly unhealthy and abusive. Like, almost. You know, like, it's like without anyone knowing or whatever, people just living their lives, how they live them, how they've acted their whole life. You don't even recognize it. And then you get out. And I remember we were at the photo shoot for Chemistry. Even being at that photo shoot, it was the first time, like, everybody, even my whole team that's known me pre, him, after him, like, all that were like, oh, my God, there you are. I didn't even realize it. And Then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, my God, I'm having, like, fun. This is, like, so much fun. Like, the photographer, Brian Bonesmith, is incredible, and he really got the message of the album and artistically kind of wrapped that in visually. Even, like, my clothes I was wearing, how I looked, how I laughed, the rock and roll side of me, all of that, everything was so different. And I didn't even realize it until after that. You. You had not dumbed yourself down, but, like, you had, like, belittled who you are to make sure everybody else felt secure or fine or whatever. You dimmed your light.
- [38:54]
Abby Wambach
You dimmed your light. Like, you put. You, like, actually dimmed your light.
- [38:58]
Kelly Clarkson
But I love how you said that so. Cause I. Cause in the song I was on, I was. It's funny you just said that. Cause I was. In the song, I was like, I don't know if I want to give that power, that control away. Like, wording is so important. But I did feel that at the time, it was like, you almost took all my light, or I almost lost all my light kind of thing. But it's like I turned it into like, you're right. It's like I allowed that to happen, like, so for people. Because by no means am I a victim in that. You allow someone to do that. You maybe don't notice you're doing it. And like you said, it's imperceptible, it's gradual, and you don't even realize what's happening because it happens so gradually. But I like that you said, like, that that is the thing. You choose to dim it. You choose. And it's like. And I just. I don't know. I think in life, it's like, if I'm not around people like friends, family, lover, whatever, like, that are okay with the amount of light I have. Like, then that's. We're just not meant to be together. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's okay, but like, to dull yourself so you feel like somebody else could shine or so you feel like you're not in the way or you're not whatever the situation is, that's not a healthy way to live, you know?
- [40:07]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, for sure.
- [40:09]
Kelly Clarkson
And it's not a healthy example for your child to look at you and see that.
- [40:13]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. It's like we're teaching them what love is, right? So if you teach them that love is quieting yourself so that you can be with, like. Because love should actually be the emergence of you.
- [40:24]
Kelly Clarkson
Right?
- [40:25]
Glennon Doyle
Like, you should be more yourself in love than at any other time. And when we show them that it's the opposite, that's kind of scary.
- [40:32]
Kelly Clarkson
I've never experienced that.
- [40:35]
Glennon Doyle
You've never experienced.
- [40:36]
Kelly Clarkson
I've experienced love. Like, deep love, but working through a lot of stuff. I don't think I've ever experienced that.
- [40:43]
Amanda Doyle
Yeah, like a love that makes you more you. Is that what you're saying? You haven't experienced a love that makes you more of you instead of.
- [40:49]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah, I don't think I've experienced that. Like, I don't. I don't think that other than. I mean, speaking with, like, a significant other. Right. I've experienced that with, like, friendships or, like, family, but, like, I. I don't think I've ever experienced that. And honestly, I'm firework, and I'm okay with that. But I'm very spontaneous, and I'm very communicative, and I'm very, like. I'm just very. Like, anything. Any other. Any word that can go with very generally that, like, I'm a walking empath. I'm just very. So, you know, I think it's gotta be somebody that can, you know, not. I don't want to say the word. Handle that. I mean, I think somebody that prizes. That thinks that that's cool. Or if not, like, I gotta be honest with you, these past three years, like, yes, they've been hard. But I was talking this the other day, like, the voice rap party, obviously, I'm moving to New York, so I'm not doing the voice right now either. So it was like Blake and I's like, last like, thing for a minute and never say never. But I just. For me, it's probably good for right now. It's been nine seasons, and we are at this rap party, and we're all there, and everyone's hanging out. The crew. A lot of those crew are also Kelly Clarkson show crew, too. So, like, I just knew a ton of people there. Right. I had some tequila and I danced for three hours straight, practically. I had the time of my life because I just. There's something freeing about tequila. Not having to worry. Yes. But not having to worry about. Oh, you know, if you're significant. Oh, are you feeling alone? Because I'm dancing and you're not dancing. Are you feeling like. It's always, like, feeling everybody else's feelings and sometimes. Sometimes it's nice just to be alone and just in your own world and experiencing your own bliss and your own. I literally danced with everyone. I don't think there's a Soul there I didn't dance with. I mean, I had so much fun. And it was just a freeing night because I wasn't in a relationship before my ex. Like, I literally was, like, basically single till, like, 30. I was like, in and out, like a. Like two, but, like, not really. It was, like, months and, like. But I just mean, like, real relationship. It's really only him. So I'm pretty good at, like, rocking life like a loner, like, because I like going to different groups of people in different vacations. I'm just that person. But there's something just so freeing about it. I think that people from the south especially, will leave one relationship, jump into another, and I'm like, I can't do that. Like, I can't. I'm not ready for it either. But, like, yeah, I can't do that.
- [43:05]
Amanda Doyle
When I'm picturing you at the party, I was just thinking it's because you didn't have somebody who feels weak standing next to you.
- [43:13]
Kelly Clarkson
Girl, that lie, that lie, that line. I was like, am I gonna say this? Am I gonna end this? Like, I literally was like, am I gonna. Am I gonna write that? You said it.
- [43:23]
Amanda Doyle
And all the angels began to say yes.
- [43:26]
Glennon Doyle
That's what happened. So real. It's so real.
- [43:28]
Kelly Clarkson
It's very true and honest. And I feel like a lot of people can relate to that. And I also feel like it wasn't supposed to be accusatory by any means. It's just. We're not. Like, this is not clicking me being able to be the best version of myself or you being able to be the best version of you. Like, this is. This is not it. I don't know what it is, but this isn't it.
- [43:49]
Amanda Doyle
Like, I'm sorry, but it's a real phenomenon. On these conversations together, we've had so many powerful discussions about really powerful women and the men in their orbit not being able to handle it. Like, it just being, at best case, accommodating it or acclimating it, but certainly not, as you said, prizing it or celebrating it. And that line that you had in me, I told you, you, I wanted you, but you needed me to need you.
- [44:21]
Kelly Clarkson
I'm sorry, ma'am, are you picking, like, every favorite line of mine on my album? I was like, wait. I was like, oh, your favorite lines.
- [44:28]
Amanda Doyle
Are my favorite lines.
- [44:29]
Kelly Clarkson
That's what I'm saying. I was like, I'm sorry, ma'am.
- [44:31]
Glennon Doyle
Wait, what?
- [44:32]
Kelly Clarkson
I was like, no, that's. Yeah, that's. Yep.
- [44:36]
Amanda Doyle
I mean, but why does that why do people need to be needed instead of. Instead of being wanted?
- [44:45]
Kelly Clarkson
Isn't it far more impressive and powerful that you would choose. I do not need you. I am choosing you because I want to be around you. I crave you. I don't need you. But there's a difference. And, well, it's. Control is a big player there. And, like, manipulation and all those things, those little fun things come into play. That's the thing that I think that broke my heart the most, was like, I just think that's the most beautiful thing to say. And to this person. I've never said that to anyone. Like, you're the only person I've ever even said that to or felt that for. How powerful is that? But it's not enough. It's not enough for people sometimes, and that's okay. That's not how they want to be loved, and that's not what they need in a relationship. And that's what it is, you know? But, yeah, that's one of my. I was like, I'm fitting that in one of these songs. Cause I just. I feel like I said it till I was blue in the face. I was just like, I don't understand. I just couldn't comprehend, like, how you couldn't see that as more beautiful and more. I don't know, just closer. Because there's a difference, like, if somebody's, like, financially dependent upon someone or if somebody's emotionally dependent upon. So any kind of dependency I feel, it takes away from what the core loving relationship should be. It's like, no, no, I don't need you for any of that.
- [46:14]
Amanda Doyle
I'm just saying, yeah, I give my love freely to you because I freely. Because I want you, not because I need you.
- [46:19]
Kelly Clarkson
I could freely be giving it to anyone, and I'm freely giving it to you and only you. I think that's so beautiful. People don't agree. Like, I'm just gonna be honest. People don't agree. And I will say this because I know, you point out, women I do know, obviously, women with that, too. But I know a couple dudes as well that have. The same thing happens to men. You know, they can till they're blue in the face. Say, I have friends that are like, I can try and make them feel as confident in the relationship as comfortable. I can try and try. And unless they see it in themselves, they're never going to receive it from me. That happens to a lot of people.
- [46:56]
Glennon Doyle
I think that people who depend on being needed instead of wanted, which I get too I think it might also come from a lack of any sort of self or self worth. Because when you need to be needed, it's transactional. So you're like, I know what I'm giving you. You know what you. But if you're just being chosen, that has to be like, based on your humanity and not just what you can do for the other person. And that requires a hell of a.
- [47:22]
Abby Wambach
Lot of self worth and vulnerability. That happened to me growing up. I tried to transactionally keep people in my life because I was too afraid to let whatever the relationship will be be. I was like trying to control it.
- [47:38]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. And you didn't want to lose it.
- [47:40]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. I'm just thinking about the beautiful. There's so many beautiful things about you. And as I'm listening to you talk, I'm realizing why I love you so much, which is because you hold two things at once all the time. You're not like a this or this type person. You're like embracing all of it. And I'm thinking about how we're taught all of these things that are goodness, that are like hope, belief in people, potential, falling in love, even. These are all the things that are held up and these are the most beautiful things in the world and they're what make life living. And they're also what fuck us completely, right?
- [48:18]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah.
- [48:19]
Glennon Doyle
Like falling in love. What the hell? When we were listening to your album, I think which song Best Kind of High. What's the song that we were listening to?
- [48:27]
Kelly Clarkson
Favorite kind of high.
- [48:27]
Glennon Doyle
Favorite kind of high. Yeah.
- [48:29]
Kelly Clarkson
I love Fairy Tale.
- [48:29]
Glennon Doyle
Sister and I were talking about how we don't get wasted and go buy cars, Right?
- [48:38]
Abby Wambach
Some people do. I don't know.
- [48:40]
Glennon Doyle
We're not like, okay, I have to make a huge decision. Let's go house hunting. So I'm gonna get totally shitfaced before I go house hunting. But then we choose our life partners when we are in love, which is just basically being really high. Right. What the hell with that?
- [48:58]
Kelly Clarkson
I don't know. But I'll tell you why. Cause there's nothing like it, man. There is something like in other things. Like, I mean, if I'm like, with motherhood and kids and that kind of, that's a whole other thing. But when it comes to like, just you, your own world, like significant others in that sense, like, there's nothing like even the first time I met my ex, he passed by me and I felt altered. Like, I felt like different. Like, it's like, wait, what? Like. And I was like, well, I've Never. I've never felt that before. I mean, like, I will take your clothes off with my teeth. Kind of like. Like that kind of just carnal. Like, I'm just like, where did that come from? You know? And that kind of high. And even in the beginning, and it wasn't for years later, by the way, we didn't even like, run into each other again. And like, see, but I. But I wouldn't settle. Like, that's the difference. Like, once you feel something like that, once you know that exists, you're like, well, I'm not settling until I feel that again. And because we deserve that. That's such a beautiful. You feel it in your whole body. It's just a beautiful high that, like, of course, like, we gravitate towards that and of course we make stupid decisions when it comes to that. Because it feels so good that, you know, it's like, why addicts are addicts, I assume as well. Well, I don't assume. I love sugar. So, like, I. But it's like we're all addicts for some reason. Something. But. But I just mean it feels good in it and it. And it makes you feel good. There's just nothing like it. There's nothing. I have yet to find anything like that kind of high of like, you know, and then them calling you or you're texting the beginning and like all that kind of stuff. It's just. It's exciting.
- [50:38]
Abby Wambach
It feels like the high of clarity, like when you.
- [50:41]
Glennon Doyle
But it's the opposite.
- [50:42]
Abby Wambach
But I also.
- [50:43]
Kelly Clarkson
So you're just hyper focused.
- [50:45]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [50:45]
Kelly Clarkson
You're hyper focused. Yeah. Yeah.
- [50:47]
Amanda Doyle
I took your lyrics. That's so interesting that when you were talking about it. Such a shame when our wants and needs don't align. Being like, I want to make this work, but it can't work. I took that as. Because I had the exact same. The first time I locked eyes with my first husband, I was like, well, good night, moon. Like, yeah, exactly. And then a few years later, it was a real kick in the short. Like, it just. It just was so.
- [51:15]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. Wake up, boo.
- [51:18]
Amanda Doyle
Good morning, son.
- [51:19]
Glennon Doyle
But.
- [51:23]
Amanda Doyle
I took that as like, oh, some of the things that I want undeniably are not things that I need.
- [51:32]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah.
- [51:33]
Amanda Doyle
How do I learn to want what I need instead of to really want what I really don't need?
- [51:43]
Kelly Clarkson
I don't know. I think that comes back to self worth too, though, right? Like, prizing yourself, even if it feels like, okay, back to sugar. Like, I love sugar, but like, it's not good for you. So you know, you do all the things you're supposed to do, but I think you do initially, like, I mean, literally, it's like coming off of a drug, like, when you stop doing that. Right. So it's like, once you get through that, the one. The tug of war, and you get on the other side, you feel better. You just feel better. You feel more clarity. You just feel more, I don't know, grounded. You feel less emotional. Because that's the thing, too, is, like, in that kind of relationship, you want to be. Don't need it. It's like, there's always this tug of war happening of, like, oh, my God, I love you, but, God, I hate you. You are just horrible. Like, you know, or. God, I. There's nobody I could picture myself being with. And then you go back and forth, and that's not healthy. That's just emotionally being. Just like, just going 90 all the time. There's no rest in there. So it's the same thing. That's why I was making the metaphor with sugar. I feel like I could be very emotional all the time. And it's always. It changes your body. Right. It's not good for you. Right. So it's like. But you finally get away from that, and you realize how, okay, this actually feels better. Like, you know, what I'm doing, that actually feels better for me. But I think it comes down to, for me, just prizing how you feel instead of how someone makes you feel. Because, like, that can be very confusing.
- [53:04]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [53:05]
Kelly Clarkson
Especially when it comes to not just love, but lust, you know?
- [53:09]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. And we're learning a lot about how that initial attraction. I mean, this is fascinating me lately, that initial.
- [53:16]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah. Like, why do we do it? For some people, not everybody. We're all. Because I don't understand.
- [53:20]
Glennon Doyle
A lot of people are now teaching us that it's actually more tied to anxiety than love. Like, it's something that's activating inside of us. It has to do with our original attachment. So, like, I think in, like, 20 years, we're gonna start seeing that first initial rush as less of a sign, that of a green go, and more of, like, a hold on. This could be a red flag. Like, we don't. If we get caught in the middle of an intersection and, like, cars are going, woof. We're not like, oh, I can't wait to get this feeling back.
- [53:50]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah.
- [53:50]
Glennon Doyle
You know? Cause that's like, anxiety, danger, danger, fire. Like, there's part of initial lust. And also is the problem that we just keep marrying people like, could we just have sex with them? Do you know what I mean? Like, is the initial attraction. Like, do we. Maybe we just don't have to keep marrying everyone that we call well?
- [54:06]
Kelly Clarkson
And that's why I'm so glad you said it. Cause, like, people right after, like, I mean, right after, like, even, like, separated, it was announced and it came out like, oh, hey, I know someone. I'm like, are you insane? Better be a really great therapist. Like, I don't want to talk to anyone right now. I'm still processing. And even now, like I said, like, I danced for three hours and then I had such a great night. And I think people feel. And I also, where I'm from, it's like very. You like someone, then you date them, you love them, you get. You get married, you have children, you receive your pension. It's like all these. It's like all these things that are just like, boop, boop, boop. And it's like, that's not how it is for a lot of us. I was literally having this conversation in the middle of nowhere on my ranch, up in the mountains with my mother. And she was like, talking. I don't know if she said, do you think you'll ever get married again? I don't think she would have said that, but somehow it came up and I was like, it's not that I'm against marriage. I think marriage is beautiful. I think it's amazing. I just don't think that it necessarily is for everyone, you know, I mean, I get why people love apple pie, but, like, is it my favorite pie? Do I have to have apple pie? No. Like, I don't want it. I don't, like, I don't necessarily want it. Just because everybody's like, this is the best pie you've ever had, doesn't mean I want to eat it. I don't feel like everybody needs to do the same thing because we're all at different points in our life and even, like, career wise, I love having, like, you said a lot of things. I. I thrive in that environment. I'm the best version of me. When I'm productive, I'm the best mother. When I'm productive, I'm just better. I figured that out. For me, that's not everyone, like, and I have goals that I want to do. I don't have time for marriage. That's it. If people think you're just going to get married and it's like, going to be. It's work. It is so much work. Even if you Are in love. Like you've never been in love in your life. It is work either way. It is day in and day out work. I don't mean to sound. It's not horrible. I just mean, like, it's just a lot of work, like, for communication. And we're ever changing. You know, we read something, it inspires us. It might not inspire that person. They're so annoyed by it. Why are we all of a sudden that you know what I'm saying? I don't know that I'll ever get married again. I'm not, like, against marriage. I would love to fall in love. I would love to experience that. I would love, you know, whatever the future holds is, I'm open to it. But I think people get married all the time, like, for sometimes reasons that they just feel forced. It's the next step. That is not why you should get married.
- [56:42]
Glennon Doyle
Do you feel in your life these days, like in your work, in your everywhere life, that you're kind of getting to dance alone now? Like, you don't have to have that double consciousness because your work. And when I see you singing and doing your show, and it feels very like you're in your body, you're doing your thing, like you're dancing. And did you before have to always make sure you weren't being too successful, you weren't being too me, me, me, and now you get to just do that without.
- [57:09]
Kelly Clarkson
I felt limited, yes. And I don't feel like that's necessarily the truth for all marriage. I just think that was my case. Like, I just felt limited. But if you're, you know, on the same path at the same time and you're actually working together and every day communicating together and doing the work, I think that it could be beautiful. But for me, it wasn't that. And it was very limiting. Not to say that that's just his fault. That's my fault for allowing that to happen. That's my work as well. It can also be limiting, like I said, because I maybe as in love as I was, I just wasn't ready, you know, and maybe the other person wasn't either. And you just try and make it work and it doesn't.
- [57:48]
Abby Wambach
I know. And I think that we can like, dog marriage a little bit. I know that because we've all had our struggles with marriages before. But I do think the things that I've learned the most about myself was through the heartbreak of losing a marriage. There has been nothing in my life that has taught me more about myself. So, like, as Much as I do think we need to be conscious and not necessarily be intoxicated with the in love feelings before we make the decision to get married. I do think it's important to note that, like, it's not all for. Not for those of us who want to do the work.
- [58:26]
Amanda Doyle
And it's also in support of marriage. Kelly, the reason you left your marriage is because you believed that it could be better than it was. Like, true. When I heard you say, I kept trying to make it work, but I didn't want to make it work. I wanted to make it beautiful. I was like, oh, my God, yes. We are all like, make it work, make it work. As if that is the gold standard, is that it works. I can make a pile of shit work, but should I?
- [58:55]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah, Like, I want it to be beautiful. Yeah, that's the same thing too. I was just talking about somebody else in a different area of, like, under my umbrella. And it was like, like, yeah, I can take all that on and I could do that, but that's not fair. And just because I can do it doesn't mean I have to or should. Like, you know, and here's the thing too, I think sometimes we focus so much on finding the person instead of the people, because there's no way one person, in my opinion, and I love humans, I really do. Even the shitty ones, apparently. I just, you know, will give a lot of leeway. Not about. I don't feel like. I feel like we put a lot on marriage too, like, in partnership, because it's like, there's no way somebody is going to be able to accomplish all of that for you. And there's no way you should put that on them. I remember even in my marriage, like, we would. I would constantly be like, hey, are you going to go hang with your friends? I'll go hang with my friends. That is very important. Instead of isolating each other and just only being you all the time. Nobody learns in that environment. If you're having the same conversations with the same people and the same. You know what I'm saying? Like, you need others in your life and that's. And when you're in a relationship and that's not necessarily promoted, that's a giant red flag. That's why I'm such a big thing on, like, you know, you are the group you surround yourself, are those people that make you better, Are those people you would want to be. Those people, you know are good for you. And I feel like that's the thing. Like, yes, you can choose to spend your life. And I would love to find a partner, like, to spend my life with and have fun with and go bowling with and drink tequila with and dance with and all those things. But at the same time. And also, like, that loves reading and also that loves just things that I'm really into. But also, I just feel like you don't need to hinge all that on one person. I think that you can get that from your village of people that you surround yourself with.
- [60:44]
Glennon Doyle
So we started this conversation talking about the circular lessons we learn over and over again.
- [60:50]
Abby Wambach
I'm so glad you're fine.
- [60:51]
Glennon Doyle
It's super fun.
- [60:51]
Abby Wambach
I'm so glad you're gonna go here.
- [60:53]
Glennon Doyle
It's like a spiral staircase, right? Life is a spiral staircase. We keep spinning around, coming around to the same lessons. And the only thing that's different is that our, like, thighs are a little stronger. We're just a little stronger. When we get to the next problem, we have a little bit of a higher perspective, but it's the same shit. If you had to, at the end of the day, get really honest with yourself, what lesson did this whole relationship. And it's not even the relationship, it's who you were in the beginning, middle, and end teach you.
- [61:29]
Kelly Clarkson
Really, to boil it down. I feel like it's to not only be honest about those that are around me, but honest about myself. I think it's honesty because I think. I mean, by no means do I think I've ever been a liar. I just mean, like, I think we. We mold things and shape them to justify them instead of just being truly honest about what's really happening. Because you don't want it to be that way. Because once again, your wants and your needs are different. Right? So I think it's just being honest about. I don't really want that. That's not for me. And that's cool that you want, like, and being okay and comfortable enough, like, coming back to what you're talking about. Like. Like coming back to not having transactional relationships and not having just that. That fear of losing someone if you're so honest with them, because you're gonna lose them anyway if you're not being honest, you know? So I think honesty, just being really, truly honest about who people are, including yourself. Yeah, that's a big win for me.
- [62:33]
Abby Wambach
I mean, listen, like, you can talk all the days long. Your people know you as this lighthouse. To me, you are truth. And that is why people are attracted to you, Kelly. It's because they can see the truth in you. And you speak the truth, and you are just so open and honest, and I. I just feel so inspired by that. Not many people in your position in your industry are your. Are the way you are. That is why people love you. I think it's fucking cool.
- [63:01]
Kelly Clarkson
Thank you.
- [63:02]
Abby Wambach
You're so fucking awesome.
- [63:03]
Kelly Clarkson
Thank you. You made me feel cool. I was like, okay. No, I love that. So nice. Thank you. I think at a certain age, though, too, right, we just get tired of trying to make everything shine. Sometimes a turd's a turd. Can't polish. It's like, sometimes it's what it is, so it's okay.
- [63:25]
Glennon Doyle
You know, I will tell you that I'm glad no one's ever said to me over and over again, you're the light. That sounds like bullshit. That's why you make your reputation, Kelly, as a depressed introvert, and then no one expects shit from you at a party.
- [63:40]
Kelly Clarkson
What's funny is, everybody thinks I'm an extrovert. I am an extrovert. But I think I am by practice, because I am quite an introvert as well. Like, people are always like, hey, let's hang. I don't hang. I hang with, like, literally, like, my village. Like, and then we get together forcibly, because my therapist made me once a week to have a life. Like, we go out. But I'm kind of that way, too. Like, I'm a Netflix and chill person. Like, I'm, you know, or. I don't know. I'm not as what I think everybody perceives me a lot of the time because I feel like I've just been trained to be that way.
- [64:13]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [64:14]
Kelly Clarkson
So it's interesting, that whole conversation about extrovert or introvert. Like, I feel like we're all a little of both.
- [64:19]
Abby Wambach
For sure.
- [64:20]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [64:20]
Abby Wambach
You're on a spectrum.
- [64:21]
Glennon Doyle
Well, Kelly, you asked before. Like, it's hard to know whether you're doing things right or wrong. And I don't think that that's the question. I think you're doing things True.
- [64:28]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah.
- [64:29]
Glennon Doyle
And that's.
- [64:29]
Kelly Clarkson
That's. Yeah.
- [64:30]
Glennon Doyle
And in the spirit of truth, before we end, I'm gonna tell you something that my teenage daughter told me after made an announcement at one of her get togethers, which is, mom, Netflix and chill doesn't mean what you think it means. If you could stop saying Netflix and chill in front of my friends, that would be great, because Netflix and chill does not mean sit on the couch and watch Netflix. It means have sex.
- [64:57]
Kelly Clarkson
I would love to Netflix and chill. No, I'm actually. I'M actually meaning it exactly how I feel.
- [65:06]
Glennon Doyle
Better.
- [65:07]
Kelly Clarkson
Okay, let's just be. Let's just keep it real. Like, yeah, I like to sit on the couch and watch a movie, but I'd also like to do other things.
- [65:14]
Amanda Doyle
The movie is followed by having a lot of sex.
- [65:17]
Kelly Clarkson
Yeah.
- [65:17]
Glennon Doyle
So next time there's an intermission, people. Next time a dude walks by you and you feel altered, we're not going to the altar. We're gonna Netflix and chill.
- [65:25]
Kelly Clarkson
That's right. Exactly.
- [65:26]
Glennon Doyle
Amen. We love you, Kelly Clark. And never too. I was.
- [65:30]
Kelly Clarkson
I was so looking forward to this. Thank you for having me.
- [65:33]
Glennon Doyle
It was a dream. We love everyone.
- [65:35]
Amanda Doyle
Get excited for chemistry.
- [65:37]
Glennon Doyle
Chemistry.
- [65:38]
Amanda Doyle
Unreal.
- [65:39]
Kelly Clarkson
Oh, thank y'all for listening. That means a lot.
- [65:42]
Amanda Doyle
So good.
- [65:42]
Glennon Doyle
You're the best lad.
- [65:44]
Kelly Clarkson
All right. I love y'all.
- [65:46]
Glennon Doyle
Love you too, Kelly. Thank you so much.
- [65:48]
Abby Wambach
See you guys next time.
- [65:49]
Amanda Doyle
Bye.
- [65:50]
Kelly Clarkson
All right, bye, y'all.
- [65:56]
Glennon Doyle
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.