Let Kids Play: Fixing Youth Sports with Linda Flanagan

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things – "Let Kids Play: Fixing Youth Sports with Linda Flanagan"

Introduction

In the April 29, 2025 episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in a profound discussion with Linda Flanagan, a freelance journalist and former cross country and track coach. The episode delves into the complexities and challenges of youth sports in contemporary society, examining how commercialization, parental pressure, and toxic coaching cultures are impacting children and families.

Guest Introduction

At 04:37, Abby Wambach introduces Linda Flanagan, highlighting her extensive background:

• Linda Flanagan is the author of Take Back the Game: How Money and Mania Are Ruining Kids Sports and Why It Matters.
• She is a founding board member of the New York City chapter of the Positive Coaching Alliance.
• Flanagan contributes to NPR's education site MindShift and is co-producing a documentary series on mental health in collegiate women athletes.

The Changing Landscape of Youth Sports

Linda Flanagan begins by identifying three primary reasons for the shift in youth sports dynamics:

1. Commercialization and Big Business:

   • The youth sports industry is a booming $30 billion sector, with parents spending between $30-40 billion annually.
   • The rise of private equity firms like Unrivaled, which acquired prominent sports complexes (e.g., Cal Ripken complex), exemplifies the commercial takeover.
   • Flanagan notes an insatiable demand for youth sports experiences, driving the industry's expansion.

   "There is almost an insatiable demand for youth sports experiences. What exists today is a fraction of what we think the potential is." [17:29]

2. Shift in Parental Attitudes and Increased Anxiety:

   • Sociologist Annette Laureau describes a phenomenon called concerted cultivation, where parents feel compelled to develop every skill and interest of their children.
   • Influenced by factors like declining public funding, economic uncertainties, and heightened awareness of child safety, parents become intensely invested in their children's athletic success.
   • The societal valorization of athletes further fuels this pressure.

   "Kids have moved from our employees to our bosses. Our parental lives come to revolve around them." [17:46]

3. Changes in Collegiate Sports and Competitive Pressures:

   • The escalating costs and competitive nature of collegiate sports create a high-stakes environment for young athletes.
   • Parents believe that intensive sports participation is essential for securing athletic scholarships and future opportunities.

   "Colleges and universities are so expensive, it's impossible to get into. And athletes get all kinds of advantages." [20:00]

Impact on Children and Families

Character Development and Mental Health:

• Contrary to popular belief, there is no substantial evidence that youth sports inherently build character traits like moral reasoning or sportsmanship.

• Flanagan references Angela Duckworth's definition of character, emphasizing that youth sports may only foster strength of will rather than strength of mind or heart.

  "If you dig deeper and think about what we mean by character... sports by definition built strength of heart, compassion, kindness, caring... it's hard to say they build those traits." [10:05]

• Mental Health Consequences:

  • Studies reveal that Division I athletes often experience lower quality of life, increased anxiety, and higher rates of depression compared to their non-athletic peers.
  • Female athletes, in particular, report more significant mental health challenges and physical injuries (e.g., higher rates of ACL tears).

  "In 2023, the NCAA did a survey... 44% of collegiate women athletes felt constantly overwhelmed... Women athletes report much higher rates of clinically significant depression." [53:42]

Coaching Culture and Toxic Behaviors

Negative Sidelines and Emotional Abuse:

• Flanagan discusses the deterioration of sideline behavior, exacerbated by the pandemic, leading to increased parental aggression and unsupportive coaching practices.

• The introduction of roles like field marshal aims to manage unruly parent behavior, but often falls short.

  "We have lost control of the sidelines and the behavior we are modeling for children in this spot that we are calling character building." [42:22]

Old Boys' Club in Coaching:

• The predominance of male coaches in youth and collegiate sports creates an environment resistant to female leadership.

• Title IX, while increasing female participation, inadvertently led to a decline in women coaches at the collegiate level.

  "Since Title IX was passed, ironically, we saw a drop in women coaches at the collegiate level. Used to be 90% of college women's coaches were women... now it's 46%." [70:58]

Strategies for Improvement

Encouraging Multiple Sports Participation:

• Promoting involvement in various sports prevents early specialization, reducing burnout and physical injuries.

• Top athletes often excelled by playing multiple sports, fostering diverse skill sets and intrinsic motivation.

  "The best athletes played multiple sports growing up... it helps develop different muscle groups, different skills." [30:22]

Parental Behavior and Support:

• Parents are encouraged to:

  • Reclaim agency by setting boundaries and not allowing sports to dominate family life.
  • Avoid extrinsic motivation, such as rewarding children with money or approval based solely on performance.
  • Foster intrinsic motivation by focusing on enjoyment and personal growth rather than external accolades.

  "Don't make a big deal of their wins, of their great games... encourage kids to love it because they enjoy it." [45:59]

Positive Coaching Practices:

• Emphasizing positive reinforcement, connection, and intrinsic motivation over fear-based tactics.

• Coaches like Steve Magnus and Pia Sundahl exemplify impactful, supportive coaching that prioritizes player well-being.

  "The best coaches know to connect with the players. They are positive... the best coaches know that that's where good coaching starts and connecting with the players." [62:32]

Creating a Supportive Environment:

• Implementing policies like Silent Saturdays and zero tolerance for abusive behavior helps maintain a healthy sports culture.

• Encouraging open communication between parents and children about their sports experiences fosters emotional resilience and self-esteem.

  "Ask them what they want and as they get older... let them choose their own path." [53:41]

Long-Term Considerations

Balancing Sports with Other Life Aspects:

• Ensuring that children have multiple sources of meaning beyond sports prevents identity loss and supports overall well-being.

• Encouraging hobbies and interests outside of athletics cultivates well-rounded individuals capable of adapting to life post-sports.

  "Kids need multiple sources of meaning in their life. It's not just from a sport... something that's not quantifiable, like knitting or cooking." [83:11]

Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with heartfelt reflections from the hosts and guest:

• Abby Wambach emphasizes the importance of analyzing the true cost of intensive youth sports participation and making informed decisions that prioritize children's mental and emotional health.

  "Let's analyze what that prize is and make sure you want that prize for your kid before you give up everything in your family to get it." [85:22]

• Glennon Doyle shares her personal journey of unlearning the over-identification with sports and fostering intrinsic motivation in her daughter, highlighting the transformative power of intentional parenting.

  "I've had to unlearn this kind of identity in some ways now that I no longer play soccer and I will never play soccer again." [84:01]

Key Takeaways

1. Youth Sports as an Empty Vessel: Sports themselves are neutral; the environment, coaching, and parental involvement determine their impact.
2. Commercialization’s Double-Edged Sword: While providing opportunities, commercialization often prioritizes profit over children's well-being.
3. Parental Pressure and Anxiety: Excessive focus on athletic success can lead to burnout, injuries, and mental health issues.
4. Positive Coaching and Intrinsic Motivation: Supportive coaching practices foster a healthier sports culture and better developmental outcomes for children.
5. Balancing Sports with Holistic Development: Encouraging diverse interests and maintaining a supportive family environment mitigates the negative aspects of competitive youth sports.

Notable Quotes

• "Sports are neither good nor bad. They can either be deeply nourishing or deeply toxic." — Amanda Doyle [04:37]
• "When you can do the right environment, they can be great for kids." — Linda Flanagan [13:27]
• "If your kid does really well and you feel elated... if your kid does poorly and you’re upset, that is something to be thinking about." — Glennon Doyle [45:11]
• "There is no meritocracy in sports in any way." — Abby Wambach [26:12]

Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things provides a comprehensive examination of the current state of youth sports, highlighting the need for systemic changes to prioritize children's well-being over commercial interests and competitive pressures. Through insightful dialogue and expert perspectives, the hosts and their guest advocate for a more balanced, supportive, and intentional approach to children's athletic involvement.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

It is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can Do Hard Things Answers to Life's 20 Questions, comes out on May 6. You can pre order we can Do Hard Things anywhere you get your books or you can go to treatmedia.com you can also join us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys, we're doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it, and we can't stand your sadness. So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores. They show up for us. We're showing up for them. May 6 if you pre ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event. Please register for the event by uploading your indie order@treatment media.com and just click the option that says I've already pre ordered from another indie. Okay, we'll see you there.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hey everybody, this is Amanda. Before we dive in, we want to say this. We believe in the power of sports. As the daughter of a football coach, the wife of a basketball and baseball coach, as myself, the coach of my daughter's lacrosse, basketball and volleyball teams, and as the mother of two kids whose selfless, grounded coaches and dogged teammates have strengthened their grit, confidence and leadership through sport, I know how remarkably invaluable sport can be to grow us and connect us. But as we are talking about today, sports are neither good nor bad. Sports are an empty vessel and depending on what you fill that vessel up with, sport can either be deeply nourishing or deeply toxic. Today we are talking about the flood of money and dramatic increases in stress and pressure in the sports industrial complex that are poisoning the vessel of youth sports for kids and families. Journalist Linda Flanagan helps us unpack what's gone wrong and how we can bring back the best of what sports have to offer to our kids.

[Abby Wambach]

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. And today to help us figure out what has gone wrong with kids sports and how we can make it just a little healthier for our own families and communities is Linda Flanagan. Linda is a freelance journalist, a former cross country and track coach, and the author of Take Back the How Money and Mania Are Ruining Kids Sports and why It Matters. She is a founding board member of the New York City chapter of the Positive Coaching Alliance, a contributor to Project Play at the Aspen Institute, and a regular writer for NPR's education site MindShift. She is also currently co producing a documentary series on mental health in collegiate women athletes. A mother of three and a lifelong athlete, Flanagan lives in Summit with her fabulous husband Bob and a small menagerie of pets. I will tell you, Linda, that perspectives we're coming from. So my sister Amanda is a coach of her daughter's basketball team and has coached in her community and lacrosse and.

[Amanda Doyle]

Lacrosse and volleyball, but all at the rec league. So that's a very distinct.

[Linda Flanagan]

That's important.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. And so she comes from that perspective. She has already noticed some kind of murky ickiness that comes out. Abby has been slightly involved in sports, so I hear, throughout her life. I don't know if you know about her, but she has been excellent at the sports.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes, she has that reputation.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Medals and things such as this. So she comes from an amazingly unique perspective on this. I am a mom. Abby is also this, but of a child who has just committed to a D1 soccer school. So we have been through and experienced the whirlpool. That is what I've heard many people call the sports industrial complex. Okay. And so what Abby and I have talked about every single day for the last years of this is something is very wrong. Something is very wrong. From the nervousness of the kids on the field to the cutthroatness, to the parents freaking out on the sidelines, to the old boys clubs of the running, the club systems, to the pay to play, the amount of time, the amount of money, just something is very wrong. And I just want to start off the conversation by saying we're going to talk about a system and we're going to talk about behaviors and we're going to talk about all of that and I'm going to judge the shit out of it. And what I want the pod squad to know right off the bat is I am also in it and of it. If you enter the whirlpool of this place, you are in it and you can resist and you can be upset. But when I talk about the parents behavior on the sideline, they are losing it. But I got it in me. I turn into something else. I'm wise enough at this point to mostly control it and keep it inside me so I don't end up on Instagram.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Yeah.

[Linda Flanagan]

So I get it.

[Abby Wambach]

That is the perspective that we are all coming from. Can you tell Linda what you were so amazed by that she said that shifted our paradigm right away?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So obviously I have a very complicated relationship with sport, with youth sports and the way that I personally experience them and then the way that I experience it as a parent and one of the things that you said it like stopped me in my tracks because I really had to think it through. And it's this belief that sports are good for kids. And I want to start our conversation off there because I'm assure everybody knows that that is a belief that I have held that I lived by, that I brought into my parenting philosophy. Is that true? Linda, Is sports good for kids?

[Linda Flanagan]

I believe sports are good for kids. It's a matter of degree. It's rec sports, physical activity of all kinds, play of all kinds. It's a complicated question that, you know, depends on the age of the children and of course, their own interest in the sport. I think so much of it is about the child's interest dictating the terms of play. But I would, of course, exercise is good for kids as separate from sports and sports. I should clarify and say that sports are a bit of an empty vessel, but depends on who's providing them, what kind of coach there is, what's the environment that the kids are playing in, what's the parent scene. All of that plays a role. Sports are, we have to remember, they're just made up games, they're just made up activities. They became a part of public schools in 1903. Before that they hadn't been in schools. I mean, these are made up things that we've decided have value. And I think they can be very important in certainly getting kids outside and off their phones, which is huge, and being with other kids. But they're not by definition all good.

[Amanda Doyle]

Can I ask it just a slightly pointed way? Do sports develop good character in kids?

[Linda Flanagan]

If you look at the research, there's not any evidence showing that sports build character. There's a meta analysis of 40 years that says looked at all the chapters and data and said there's no evidence that playing sports develops moral reasoning or sportsmanship. But if you dig a little deeper and think about what do we mean by character? And I think I love this definition that Angela Duckworth has and she's a professor at University of Pennsylvania. She defines it in three ways. Strength of mind, which would be curiosity, open mindedness, having good judgment, strength of heart, being generous, compassionate, caring and strength of will. Determined, courageous, brave, dedicated, all those things. And I think it would be hard to say by most standards that sports by definition built certainly those first two, strength of heart or strength of mind. I think most people think of sports building character with regard to building strength of will. You know, I want my kids to be dedicated and determined. And I think while there's no evidence, again, there's no evidence that it does this. I think this is what we lean into when we think of sports building character. But given the current youth sports environment, which is very competitive and expensive and cutthroat, I think you'd be hard pressed to say, especially that sports built strength of heart, compassion, kindness, caring. I think a good coach can do that. A good coach can work to develop those strengths in players.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I want to just stop there and say that this is a really important idea for us to understand as parents and people making decisions for our children. And I am really into an era of testing assumptions that if we're just assuming things and jumping in, that's not the first step. The first step is to test all assumptions. And when we say sports are good for children, that's kind of like saying religion is good for children. Okay, what kind? What system? No, religion is not good for children. There are some religions that you can enter your child in that will destroy them and destroy their spirit, and they'll spend the rest of their lives trying to recover from that. There are some spiritual communities that you could get involved in that might become fertilizer for your kid's soul. Sports are as a empty vessel as religion is. Right. Because even when you say exercise is good for kids, I test that assumption. I had a childhood where maybe the way that exercise was presented to me was not at all healthy. The thing is not inherently good or bad and must be examined. When you say sports builds character, everything you're saying sounds correct to me in terms of testing that assumption. Because in the current system we have, I see a little bit of the opposite. The kind of cutthroatness you have to be. So many kids are performing because they are being scared into performing. And so what might look like resilience, what might look like short term performance is actually fear based. If we're not testing those assumptions, we might be building the absolute wrong kind of character that we think they are. Correct.

[Linda Flanagan]

Absolutely. Yep. I think again, sports are an empty vessel. I believe done in the right environment, they can be great for kids. I think exercise in the right environment, in the right amounts, it is an empty vessel. So we do have to challenge assumptions about what's good for us and our kids.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think one of the things that really sticks out when I'm listening to both of you talk right now is my personal experience. And what I believed brought me great character traits, in fact, were just great coaches, people in my life that taught me the lessons that I was kind of couching in the whole term sport. Right. And I think that that is really important. My mom told me this when I was very young. She said, it is important that you guys play sports. And she told me this when I was older too. She was very careful on what coaches she put me in front of. And now I'm seeing that with our 16 year old daughter with her club coaches. There's some questions that I have that I'm wondering, you know, is this a good place for her to be developing as a full upright adult one day? And I'm not 100% certain. Can you just give us a little bit of just background as to why this has happened in youth sports? Your book really does a great job at it.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes. So I identify three main reasons for the change in youth sports from, you know, the, where it used to be when it was more low key and relaxed and child driven. The first is that it's a big business. I think we all know that the youth sports industrial complex and the numbers are all over the map in terms of how much it's worth, but it's roughly a $30 billion industry. And the Aspen Institute reported that parents spend between 30 and 40 billion dollars a year. Now the industry developed this way for a variety of reasons. Starting in the 70s when public funding declined for parks and recreational type programs that were open to all and private enterprise stepped in and started filling that void. Then we had Title nine, which brought more girls in. Great. So there's more demand and business starting to fill in the gaps. And then a pivotal moment was Disney's opening of the Wide World of Sports complex, which is so interesting to me. I talked to one of the guys who was there at the beginning and he said, look, it was, we needed to put heads in beds. It was a strategy to get more teenagers at Disney World because they generate revenue when they go to the hotels and parks and most teenagers tire of the Magic Kingdom. So they developed this complex kind of, you know, as an experiment. And then they found when 9, 11 happened, that parents pulled back travels, you know, slowed way down, but it didn't slow down to Disney's Wide World of Sports. And that was a light bulb moment for them and for other communities who decided, well, well, why can't we build a complex in our town and get those tax dollars and get kids coming? And so that business side of it took off and there are no like real controls on youth sports. I can hang up a shingle and say, I' coach. And I mean, I have been a coach, but I can just say, you know, come to me and I'll show you how to lift weights or I'll give you specialized training. It's kind of all over the place in terms of the industry and now private equity companies are buying into it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, shit.

[Abby Wambach]

There you go. Okay.

[Linda Flanagan]

And I just have to share this quote with you. Okay, so a large private equity firm called Unrivaled started just last year and they've bought up a ton of these. They bought up the Cal Ripken complex. They bought up Cooperstown.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, my God. Those are the two places we go with our baseball.

[Linda Flanagan]

Here's what the guy who runs it, who's been charged with running it, said. There is almost an insatiable demand for youth sports experiences. What exists today is a fraction of what we think the potential is.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Linda Flanagan]

So, okay, so this is only going to get bigger or as long as parents keep paying and signing up for this stuff. Okay, so that's. Money is the first one. The second big factor in changing youth sports is the way the shift in parent attitudes toward kids. And I think this is to me the most interesting because it's not just sports, it applies to all things with kids and their activities. I'd love to quote Jennifer Senior, the author, who said kids have moved from our employees to our bosses. And what she meant by that is our parent lives come to revolve around them. There's been like a flip. This also started in the 70s when there was a recession and parents started worrying about their kids economic futures. We had a decline in the number of kids families had. It went from four to two. So they were scarcer and more precious. So each one needed to be, you know, all that extra attention and also changes in the family. There were more divorces. So single parent homes, two parents working. It made sense that parents felt more nervous about their kids. The word is anxiety. Parents are so worried about how their kids are going to turn out. And on top of that, this is when we started hearing about stranger danger, child abductions. And of course now we have it in our pockets. So we can hear about every awful thing that's happening everywhere. And we get the message. Don't leave your child unattended for a second. Okay, so all of those factors has led to what the sociologist Annette Laureau calls concerted cultivation. We feel we have to cultivate their every little skill and interest and nudge them in any possible direction. Maybe they like to draw. We sign them up for art classes. We have to cultivate every talent, and this is really true in the middle and upper income households. Sports are obviously a very popular activity in this country. We love our sports figures, Abby. They're all over the place. NFL had 93 of the most broadcast shows last year of 93 of the top 100. We love our athletes. It's A high status activity. We want our kids to be high status. And there's, you know, we assume that sports build character. It kind of stands to reason that it would lend itself to wanting to put your kids in sports for all those reasons and the final one. So it's money changes in perspectives on children and kind of what we owe them and what they owe us. It feels like they're a reflection of us. It's up to us to make them good, responsible people. And the third is changes at colleges and universities. They're so expensive, it's impossible to get into. And athletes get all kinds of advantages that most parents are aware of. All of those in combination. I'm sure there's things I'm missing have contributed to this environment where youth sports are so intense. And from what I understand, the young parents I know, they feel they have to do. They have to get their kids in, you know, three years old, they got to start taking tennis lessons and four, join the soccer club and basketball and everything or you're going to fall behind. If you don't do it now, they're going to fall behind. And by the way, you need to do it year round.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

You know, the quick and dirty description of all of this is just like capitalism, like late stage capitalism enters into kids sports and takes over. And what always happens is that it becomes a bit of a Hunger Game situation. And because it's all based on scarcity. And in every system like that, whether it's, you know, Hollywood or writing or sports, the way the system continues is they hold up a few examples of exceptional people that made it. Abby and I talked about this last night, how she has some guilt about being this. It's a carrot. Okay, so the Oscars, I wouldn't say guilt.

[Glennon Doyle]

I would say I have a responsibility.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, yeah, the lottery runs because we all know about the winners of the lottery who got so rich. So yep, 0.0001% will become the lottery winner will become Abby will be on the Oscars. But that culture holds that up as possible. And so all the parents who are, bless their hearts, in a Hunger Games situation, we can look at all of this as judgmental. And how can you be that way. But one way to look at it is these parents have brought their kids into the capitalism Hunger Games. And everyone is looking because of our commitment to not taking care of the social fabric. But every man is on his own. Every family feels like a startup. That's like trying to survive.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

It's not just that their kids are our bosses. It's that we are on our own. We are freaking little startups trying to make it. And it could be seen, although it gets totally convoluted and horrific, as an act of empowering our kids to make it in one way or another.

[Linda Flanagan]

I think it is grounded in this idea that this is going to be helpful to you. It might help you get into a better college. We live in such a competitive society. I think many of the parents and kids who are good athletes, they have a real competitive spirit anyway, and they want to get in there and compete and fight for it. And I think there's something to be said for that because we are in a competitive society. But at the same time, when you think about character and how we define character, it seems like that's kind of the opposite of building strength of mind or strength of heart. It's about building the ability to beat other people.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, right. Not just on the field, going through the D1 process. I mean, one of the things we just try to do is just at least talk to our kid about what she's in, like all the time saying, look at what's happening. It would be hilarious to think that the kids who are making it are the most talented kids in the country. That is hilarious. These are the kids who are making it, are the kids whose parents have enough money to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on all of these trips and all of of these uniforms and have the kind of job where they can be done at 4:30 and sit in a fricking parking lot from 6 until 10:00. I mean, there is no meritocracy in sports in any way. And so the one thing we can do is repeatedly point to the water the kids are swimming in so that they can see the system.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Do you have any, like, statistics on how many kids actually go and play in college and then how many of those kids go and play in professional sports?

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes. Well, writ large, 6 to 7% of high school athletes go on to play in college.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow.

[Linda Flanagan]

2% get any kind of money and 0.3% get a full ride. So even those who get money, which. And that's just D1 and some of D2 very few of them get a free ride. For most kids, their sports career is going to end in high school if they're able to play in high school. And then maybe they'll go and do, you know, running and swimming and all kinds of things you can do independently, but their team sports are going to end in high school.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that's another thing about high school, is that with this club world, it used to be when I was growing up, I got interested in lacrosse in 8th grade and I played my first season in 8th grade. I played 9th grade on my JV team, 10th grade made varsity. That was a possible thing. Now with all this club stuff, you can't just try a sport if your parents haven't cultivated it. When you're like five, by the time you're six, forget it. Like, you can't try something new. But there's no making your high school team unless you have like nine years of experience before high school. It's insane. At least around here. I live in Northern Virginia.

[Abby Wambach]

It's.

[Amanda Doyle]

You have to be an expert at your sport.

[Linda Flanagan]

Well, that's the perception and is true to some extent in some sports. But if your kids are really naturally athletic and they've played a lot of sports growing up and they pick up a lacrosse stick in eighth grade, the right coach will, if that coach is willing to work with your child and your child is good, they will probably be okay in part because some of those kids who started playing at five or six are going to be injured or just sick to death of it and not want to play anymore. There's a calculus at stake here. You know, if you think, well, I want my 5 year old to start playing so that she'll have the chance to play in high school, maybe, or maybe she'll just get sick to death of it or tear her ACL in middle school, which happens. So there is that perception. But other sports also. Running is my sport. You don't need to have any prior training. And also the top people in sports medicine would tell you, build the athlete, don't focus on one sport. That advice clashes with the reality of all these kids playing one sport starting at age 6 or 7.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think what's important that we do need to kind of dig in right here is this idea of individualization of sport at a young age. Can you talk about how most of the Olympians played multiple sports?

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes. Well, I mean, you could speak to that. We know that the top athletes played multiple sports growing up. It's evident, you know, Tom Brady, Roger.

[Abby Wambach]

Federer, Abby Wambach, I think Megan Rapinoe.

[Linda Flanagan]

You played multiple sports, did not specialize. And many argue the sports medicine people argue that playing these multiple sports helps develop different muscle groups, different skills, working with different coaches. You know, you're not tearing down, you know, your elbow, say, or your knees. You're working on your entire body. So the vast majority of the top athletes played multiple sports. And there is one very interesting study by a man named Arnie Gulitsch, who's a German man, who studied the population of the top adults and the top youth. And he found that they were basically separate populations. In other words, at the very top, adults were not at the top when they were youth. And the very top youth didn't make it to the top as adults because they had been trained. You know, the young kids, they get, oh, we spot talent. We have these talent identification programs. Oh, that kid's good. Focus all the resources on them, and then they just sort of peter out. They reach their max potential at a younger age. So, I mean, there's all kinds of evidence that the way we're doing it, by picking who we think is going to be good, focusing all our resources on them is not really in that kid's best interest. And certainly not in the best interest of all these kids who are left out, who think maybe they're not good and they haven't even gone through puberty, which is when the real game starts.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, this is totally my experience. Growing up, I played multiple sports. I was getting more advanced in basketball and in soccer throughout high school and the time that I needed to play soccer. Cause I was on the youth national teams that started to ramp up. And so I really coveted the basketball season as a break. Yes, it was so important for me. And also now looking back, the thing that I was like most known for as a soccer player was heading.

[Linda Flanagan]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did I learn the timing of a jump more than I did not playing soccer. It was playing basketball. It was playing basketball that made me one of the best headers in the entire world. And so, like, I just think of this, and I have to also say and admit it is really difficult as a parent to be in the system and to now being required for our children to literally sign contracts with clubs that require you to pay dues for 12 months to be a part of this club system or you will get left behind and then you won't be seen by the college coaches. And honestly, like Emma, she ran track when she was younger. We had her doing a lot of things, but then there's a time like 12, 13 years old where these club systems kind of get their talons in you. And it's like church. It's so hard to break free up from. And so I just. Eventually we're going to talk about that in. In this conversation. But I just want to say, like, for any parent listening, multiple sports is the best way to keep your kids from getting injured from also the mental burnout. Your kid does need that mental break.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Linda Flanagan]

Can I just ask you something, Abby, and both of you, did you feel you couldn't say no? She's playing one season and will pay for the whole year, but she's not playing the spring. Or would they then kick her off the team?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I mean, it, it. It's also complicated because it's not just our decision. This is a decision that she becomes involved with because she doesn't want to miss practice, she doesn't want to miss the weekend games, she doesn't want to miss the consistency in the training. It's like this confusing game. I guess they're putting us in a position where we have to say yes. In many ways, I have tried to.

[Abby Wambach]

Get her to quit, like six times. It's a family joke. Can we talk about this whole, like, testing the assumption of this entire endeavor? It is a bit of a family joke, but I think there's something to explore here. When Abby came to the family, everyone jokes that she upgraded our family system, which was a commitment to mediocrity.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. They were all in rec league sports.

[Abby Wambach]

And I sensed something wrong. And the girls were in gymnastics. Okay. And that was fun. And I had this moment where the woman from the gym walked over to me and sat down next to me and I was like, oh, here it comes. And she said, you girls are really talented. And I think it's time for them to come four nights a week. And I said, girls, you wanna play soccer? We never had a good run.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you. Gymnast, teacher.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm watching them. I'm stuck here four hours a day. I understand they're not super talented. Like, something else is going on here. And also I am trying to avoid this, like, suck into one thing. And also then it takes over the whole family's life. And then they're all revolved around this one thing.

[Linda Flanagan]

And.

[Abby Wambach]

And then, by the way, what does that do to the kid then? The kid knows. Our whole family's life is revolved around my performance in this one thing. And that's not what we're doing here.

[Linda Flanagan]

That ups the pressure so much.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm confused in general about pursuit of excellence. I feel like assuming that we should all be pursuing excellence. I've experienced and know too many people who are the carrots of the system and watched their mental health, their physical health. I've felt it in myself. I think the cost of it might be too high. I think that everyone's a victim of systems of exceptionalism, everyone who doesn't make it, and especially those who do make it. I was listening to you talk about a podcast. Can you tell us what the long term results on mental health and emotional health of those D1 athletes is?

[Linda Flanagan]

Yeah, it was very surprising and counterintuitive to me to find that D1 athletes. There have been studies done by a woman named Janet Smith who found that D1 athletes had lower quality of life measures, had worse sleep, worse lower well being measures, and less physical activity than their non athletic college peers or their non varsity athletic peers.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you're talking about long term. When they're like 40 or 40 in.

[Linda Flanagan]

Their 50s, you know they. Yes. Surveyed later, they were less active, more unhappy or unsettled than their peers who hadn't played. Another point though, which is related because I think college sports are a little are so extreme, is that the single best predictor of whether you'll be active later in adulthood is whether you played a varsity sport in high school. To me, that's the sweet spot is varsity sports in high school. If you can do it, great. And then it kind of develops that habit. Maybe that's an old fashioned view if you leave out the club stuff for a minute. But college sports, they're a whole other ball game. I mean the commitment that's required, the physical, the exhaustion. They have two full time jobs and it takes a massive toll. Yeah. Foreign.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Can we talk about parent sideline culture and what is going on? I want to start by telling you that when Abby came and said we couldn't be mediocre anymore, which by the way, I think the our kids are as confident and beautiful. What Abby brought was absolutely necessary. I wouldn't change it in any way. But we were on this like fancier team or something. I don't know. I guess we started the club an.

[Linda Flanagan]

Elite team of some kind.

[Abby Wambach]

But the kids were still, you know.

[Glennon Doyle]

They went from rec league to the travel soccer system. Yes.

[Linda Flanagan]

And that happens very young, I should say.

[Abby Wambach]

And the sidelines just got wild. I couldn't believe it. Like there was screaming, there was yelling. There was just so much behavior that is never tolerated anywhere else. Right. And so they came up with this idea of like a field marshal that one of the parents would have to monitor all the parents behavior. And so one day I was the field marshal. And when I told which she loved.

[Glennon Doyle]

By the way, she loved being the.

[Abby Wambach]

Field because I used to bring blow pops and like put them in all the parents mouths. And I would say suck this so you can remember to not suck. Like let's just all not suck today.

[Linda Flanagan]

That's great.

[Abby Wambach]

But one time when I was the field marshal, one of the dads on the sideline lost his shit to the Extent that he started screaming, running on the field in this crazy system. It was my job, the 52 field marshal. I had to run, go onto the field, Talk down this 6 foot 5 man who was our parent on our sideline. Then he wouldn't leave the field.

[Glennon Doyle]

The referee was excusing him from the playing sidelines.

[Abby Wambach]

So then the referee told me it was my responsibility to get this guy to the parking lot. They had to call the police. I mean the extent we have lost control of the sidelines and the behavior we are modeling for children in this spot that we are calling character building. Please tell us how did we get here? What are you hearing? What are we going to do about it?

[Linda Flanagan]

Well, we do know that since the pandemic parent behavior has gotten worse during and after the pandemic, we've lost 20% of sports officials because part of that was age related and not wanting to get sick. And part of it was understandably tired of being on the receiving end of a lot of abuse. I know that communities are trying to do things about it and we, we can talk about some of those things. There are groups that have silent Saturdays, zero tolerance policies, teams where they have the captains from opposing teams come out and read a statement like at a basketball game, this game is for fun. It's so we can enjoy the sport and play. I mean it seems so insanely juvenile.

[Amanda Doyle]

They're teaching the parents, they're coming out. Reminder, we are out here to have fun.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes, but I think it's all a reflection of the fact that we parents feel so tethered to our kids performance and how they play and if they score, it's like our goal and it matters so much to us and you just feel it so much more as a parent, which is why I often recommend that parents miss games. Just don't go to games if you're getting too wrapped up. Yeah, it's not good for anybody. Don't go to the games or miss some.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that that's really good. I think I heard you say, and this like really hit me. If your kid does really well and you feel elated and you have an outsized happiness. And then on the converse, if your kid does poorly and you parent are upset, that is something to be thinking about and to be aware of. And I think Glennon and I do a pretty good job at keeping this in check. Because honestly it really does not matter if my kid plays well or doesn't. The times that I get like really pumped for her is when I know she's Been struggling and she's been having a tough time at practice or she hasn't been playing it in her. From her words, like her best. And then she like kind of comes into a game and comes into herself. That's cool to me because I'm like, wow, like, look at what you've been able to do. That's so cool. How can parents fix themselves? Besides not just not going like, do you have any tips for parents who are sitting on the sideline? Who do you recommend Parents watch practice because that's a thing.

[Linda Flanagan]

Oh, no, I can't imagine. And first of all, like, don't you have something better to do?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Linda Flanagan]

And second of all, it's not, I guess it's not helping your child if you're standing around second guessing the coach and offering suggestions. It's not helping the child. It's very confusing and kids get really torn up when the parents and the coach don't agree. And it's just so confusing. I think it's helpful to when you're struggling with it as a parent to know that it's going to be a struggle and that just learn to recognize it and to keep your mouth shut. Another really important bit of counsel I read from a coach named Steve Magnus is don't make a big deal of their wins, of their great games.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Linda Flanagan]

Like, yeah, be proud. But because you're sending the message that it's sort of conditional and then the kids want to play well for you. Not because they love it. And we as parents, our job ought to be to establish an environment where they feel able to indulge their interest and get better because they like it, you know, to develop their intrinsic motivation for the sport. Not because they're pleasing mom and dad.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Linda Flanagan]

Or anybody, or even the coach, but that they love it and they're doing it because they love it and they enjoy it and they feel they're with a team that they love, not because they're pleasing somebody.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's been the. I would say. And the POD squad kind of knows I've gone through quite a bit of a recovery process from professional sport. And I would say that that's probably the thing that I've had to reckon with the most, is this. What do I want? And like, I was thinking about this two days ago when I was going on my walk and I was like, wow, like, you're walking right now. Nobody told you to do this. Nobody's paying you for this. This isn't something that, you know, the Television screen, the cameras are looking at, like, you're doing this because you know that this is good for your long term health, cardiovascular, you know, wellness, all of the good things that you get from going on a walk. And honestly, when I was playing and up until maybe like three years ago, it was hard for me to find the motivation to do something without the belief that somebody else is going to watch it or I was going to get something good out of it, or.

[Abby Wambach]

You were going to make someone proud. You wanted me to. I mean, Linda, it would not be out of the realm for Abby to come home from a walk and say, I went for a walk. Are you proud of me? We're 48, and I do think about that word a lot. And poor parents, like, we just can't win for losing. But I do often think about what is the shadow side of the thing I'm saying. If I'm saying I'm so proud of you because you scored so many goals today. There's a shadow side of that.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

If I'm proud of you because you scored goals, it is also automatically true that I will not be proud of you if you do not score goals.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

In fact, I'm a little ashamed. Yes, I'm a little ashamed of you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's why language matters. I'm very particular about this one. I never say the word proud because it's kind of a trigger for me. I only say, gosh, I'm so happy for you that you feel good about that performance. And I don't say, I think you did well or I think you did poorly. We ask her, how do you think you did? How do you feel about that game? And then she informs us. And so that informs the things that we can say to her as a mirror back, like, I'm so happy that you feel that way. Or like, oh, man, I feel I'm so bummed that you feel that way about yourself and about your performance.

[Abby Wambach]

And then sometimes Abby will come in the room and secretly say, wow, I had a different assessment. Like, we actually don't add. Abby doesn't add her assessment.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

But she often has a very different one than the one.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm actually so happy for her that she feels that way because I thought she'd double suck.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also, I just want to say this as a shout out to all the parents and maybe some helpful tip for a parent. If your child asks you for your assessment, and only if they do, is when you give it to them.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I will tell you, we've told Emma. Hey, if you ever want me to let you know how I felt about the game, just ask. I'll, I'm happy to, to give you coach Abby's perspective. Take a guess how many times she's asked me what my perspective was. Zero. Yeah, Zero times has my child wanted to know what gold medalist World cup champion Abby Wambach had to think about her game. Yeah, they don't give a shit about what we think. So just know that, know that when you are going to go analyze your kid with your kid on the Dr. My God. Do not talk about the game on the drive home.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes, I know, that's so, it's so obvious. I, I just can't understand why that hasn't, you know, resonated with all parents.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm also interested in short term. How do we help our pod squad families carve out pockets of health inside this system that is not going to change tomorrow. What do you think sister? As a parent of young kids, like what do you want to know about this whole system? I'm so in it that I don't even know what.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, that's good.

[Abby Wambach]

How to start it.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm not even close to the college situation. I guess I'm interested if there is any data on what conditions, what parameters, what kind of context you can help create for kids to have short term, long term health success benefit from sport as opposed to like where the red flags are. When you say long term the people who have been total immersion, high intensity actually fare worse. Like where's the sweet spot and what conditions can parents do to create that sweet spot so they get the benefit of sports without the, the detriment that is the flip side of it.

[Linda Flanagan]

Well, if you can X out all the influences that are saying specialize early, you know, sign your kid up 5 years old, all of that. You know, in a perfect world I think they, they play a lot unstructured, play outside with like minded age related peers a little older, a little younger. I spoke to the professor Peter Gray who's really an expert on play and you know this is where kids learn emotional resilience. They develop confidence, they develop a feeling of competence and, and independence. So this is something we've taken away from kids. Let your kids play unstructured and get out of the way as they get older. I think it's great to introduce them to sports that doesn't have to be organized in elementary school. I think some rec teams are great. I think they're wonderful for kids to meet other kids if they're like local and they're low key and the focus is on development fun. Keep dabbling and exploring what interests them. There's this document called the Children's Bill of Rights in Sports that is a big thing in Norway and we've started to adopt it in some communities here in the us. The first principle is let children decide what they want to do. Ask them what they want and as they get older and if they're interested in a particular sport and those who are indulge it to the extent that you're comfortable with as a family, I think you hold off on specializing as long as possible. As long as you think it's doable that they'll be able to still be competitive. But not at first grade, not at second grade. It's not in their interest to do it that young. But as they get older and then they decide they want to, I think it really has to come from the kid. And there's this quote I love from Steve Magnus, that Olympic coach, there's no such thing as an 11 year old sports star. So get over your 8 year old bringing home a trophy like don't make a big deal of it and let them dabble and then kind of choose their own path. With any luck they'll play in high school on a varsity team if they're good enough. I frankly am really split about whether particularly for women, if college sports are so great, I'm not sure I'd want my daughter to play for a college team.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why?

[Linda Flanagan]

Well, if you look at the data and I'm involved in a documentary project on mental health of collegiate women athlete, it's called Beyond Stigma. And if you look at the data and I can share it with you. In 2023, the NCAA did a survey of mental health of men and women in college sports. It was like over 20,000. And in every single measure the women did worse and sometimes significantly worse than the men. So overall, 44% of collegiate women athletes felt constantly overwhelmed by all they had to do. The men, it was just 19%. 29% of the women felt overwhelming anxiety. Just 9% of the men did. Women athletes report much higher rates of clinically significant depression. They get injured a lot more. I'm sure Abby, you're aware of this in your career in sports that they tear their ACLs four times the rate that men do in sex comparable sports. And the ACL is the big ligament in the knee that when you tear it, it's a long rehab process and usually requires surgery. And half of those people are going to get arthritis within 10 years. So there's a long term consequence of tearing your acl. And girls get it a lot more than boys and women more than men. Women get concussions more. Women who are body shamed more. I don't want to sound like so negative about sports. It's just that I think the way they have evolved so that it's basically two full time jobs. Collegiate and male athletes both, they have two full time jobs. The division one level. Another survey, you can look it up. It's called the Goals G O A L s survey. The NCAA puts out the athletes report spending 33 hours a week division one on their sport and 35 on their academics. I mean that those are two full time jobs. They also have very little control over their summers, their vacations, holidays, what they can study, whether they can travel abroad. And if you're Abby Wambach, that might be fine if you are just so driven and so damn good. But a lot of the kids, they've kind of like fallen into it or they're good and they got noticed and they ended up on a Division 1 team. I think that's probably pretty rare because you really have to want it to be on a Division 1 team. But it might be a lot more than you realized. And I think that high school girls who have this intention should be aware of what's coming because it is intense and it's relentless and it's very, very challenging.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. That's why I think it's so important what you're saying. It can come across all of this talk as negative. But what I want to say to the pod squad is I feel like telling you all of these things and lifting the veil on all of this is a public service to you. Because if we don't analyze carefully what the big door prize is that we are sacrificing our children's entire lives for and our mental health and our money just so that we might become this 3% or 1%. Let's for sure look at the 1% and make sure that that thing is good to us is what we want. To me it feels like one of the only ways out of the system is figuring out do we even want the prize of the system, the reality of the prize?

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. Because the perception is not the data.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And we're already in it. I wanted to do this episode to say to all of let's just analyze it before we give away our lives for it. Can we talk about coaching culture?

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I was raised by a football Coach, My sister and I, we have deep respect for the ideal version of what a coach can be. I can tell you that when our daughter has been doing her visits to colleges and all of that, I have sat down with these coaches and looked them in the eye and spent time with them because I have seen what I think is coaching that is just unchecked ways that coaches approach kids. As a former teacher, that would never be tolerated in a classroom. And for some reason, when we put children on fields with these leaders who are creating such important pathways in their brains and in their bodies, there's no guidelines. Their parents don't know what's acceptable, what's not. We can listen to a coach say things or be a certain way that feels wrong to us, but because of the wild west nature of it, we are convinced by everyone else that this is how it has to be done. That for some reason, the best way to motivate a child on a field is completely different than what is acceptable and best practice in a classroom. We use shame, we use fear, we use belittling. Bullying. Bullying.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, even the term locker room talk.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

It says there's a certain thing that's acceptable in the world, and then there's this whole other thing that is okay because it's done in a locker room.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. It is so weird. And one of the things that was, like, so important to Glennon and I. Cause, like, we're literally giving our child to a different family for four years. And we're assuming that this coach and the coaching staff in total is going to take over in some ways, the parental guidance of this child while they are developing in some of the most important years of their developmental lives in terms of how they see themselves, their self esteem, you know, what they're thinking about as they become young adults. And so you have to be mindful of that. And I wasn't going into some of these meetings with these coaches being like, oh, you're looking at our daughter. And hopefully we were like, interviewing them because it was. She's like our most prized possession, one of the three of our children. They're our most prized possessions. And we just are basically hoping that they want our kid. But you have to be interviewing these.

[Abby Wambach]

Coaches as parents because the power differential is so huge. You are giving your kid.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like you're giving your kid to a fundamentalist church and you need to make sure it's a good minister. This is just an empty vessel. This could develop the absolute worst in her or the absolute best in Her. What is a good coach? What should parents tolerate? What should they not tolerate?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's hard for parents. I grew up in an era where the yelling at us was normalized. When women's sports and women's soccer especially, became more monetized, you saw more men get involved.

[Linda Flanagan]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think that that's why it's so important to me in terms of, like, how we can progress as, like, a culture is. I really do think it will benefit young girls to be coached by young adult women. And this is not across the board. I just think that, for the most part, it's good to see women on the sidelines, but there's so much that I was conditioned to believe was normalized coaching behavior that I actually take myself out of the equation often. And I ask Lennon, like, what lands for you? And she's like, that's emotional abuse. And I'm like, got it. Okay. Interesting.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yeah, you tolerate it in sports, but the best coaches know to connect with the players. They're positive. They try to develop intrinsic motivation. They find a way to keep it fun, even at the top levels. You look at Steve Kerr, it's all about being positive and getting the most out of young people. You motivate them by giving them agency and finding ways to help them improve and feel like they belong and that you care about them as a coach and you want them to do well. It's not about being a general on the sidelines, and that has been normalized. And that's the depiction of coaches in media. But those aren't the ones that produce the best results. And there's plenty of evidence that shows that. That it is connecting with young people that is motivating to them, especially to young people. And they need to feel that. I always felt, as a coach, that they just need to know that I see them, I see you. I know your name. I want you to do well. I care about you. It's like, that's the bottom line, especially in the youth level and in high school. They just want to know that they matter to you. And I think that, really, the good coaches know that that's where good coaching starts and connecting with the players.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think my favorite coach of all time, her name is Pia Sundahag. And of course, course, she's Swedish, so this makes a lot of sense. But when she first came to our team, the women's national team, we'd been coached by men and a woman prior to Pia, and for the most part, it was very negative based. And then here comes this Swedish woman, and she will not show us a negative clip in film ever. And actually, it was really hard for us to get used to at first because we were so conditioned to only work on things that we failed at that. When she only was bringing these positive clips, like, look at what you've done here. And then trying to, like, magnify and replicate all of these positive moments that happened throughout a game, it really changed the way that I approached the game. It was like rather than picking out and nitpicking all of these failures or problems, we were actually only focusing on the things that we do well. And then psychologically and energetically and mentally, that just changes the dynamic of the entire package. Right. So I just think that I say this in a way that it's also hard for parents to know what is really happening inside the locker room. If your kid doesn't talk to you about it or they're feeling a little bit shame because they're getting bullied or emotionally abused by their coach. What are some things that we can do to start these conversations with our young kids to kind of open the door of understanding what they do want and what their experience is on the field and then how we can communicate best with them so that they can maintain this sweet spot that we want them to be in?

[Linda Flanagan]

Mm. Well, I think it starts by asking them and that you are very clear with them about what's not acceptable in our family. We don't call each other names. We don't belittle each other. And you shouldn't accept it in a coach. And, you know, know that so that they understand that even if the coach is doing it, that this is unacceptable to you so they can recognize that it's wrong. And we had this incident in my family where my son came and told me what was going on with one of his coaches, and he knew it was wrong and it bothered him. And I think as long as they feel that they can do that and then you can then weigh in and say, yes, that is wrong. And I'm going to talk to the head coach about that. That is wrong. We don't do that. You just have to feel like you've given them permission and that just because the coach is doing it doesn't mean it's okay. And I think girls, especially need to hear this. In my experience and what I've heard from other coaches, they're very compliant. You know how I'll do more. There's this compliance that I think girls really need to learn how to say stop or I'm not doing that.

[Amanda Doyle]

And isn't a precondition to all of that, is your kid. Because you can say that all you want, but if your kid knows. My mom's world and identity is attached to me as an elite athlete and her entire community is built on that team and she will be devastated to lose this team. It doesn't matter what you say, they won't bring that to you because they know that it will be devastating to you. You have a responsibility even before that to separate your existence and your identity and your sense of belonging in the world from your kids sport. Because then when something happens, it's not catastrophic. It really can be theirs. We have this we thing going on. We play travel, baseball. We are the team. No, you're not. You are actually not. It is your child. You need to like support them to the extent that they wish. And then you need to have your own ass life. Precisely because when things break bad, when they don't make the team, it is not a family leveling experience. It's just a team.

[Linda Flanagan]

Well, and that's the trouble with, in my view, with some of the travel teams and those club programs, the parents really develop a sense of community. I mean, on the one that's nice in a way because everybody needs community. But on the other hand, the sport is for the kid.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Linda Flanagan]

And the more your whole life revolves around how the child does and you know, if they want to quit, God forbid, then your social life goes down the tube. And I think it's really important for parents always to remember that the sport is for the child so that if they want to quit, they've had enough of it. It's not the end of the world for you.

[Abby Wambach]

Linda, how do you feel about paying your child for goals and winning things?

[Linda Flanagan]

Oh, I think that's terrible.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, thank you.

[Linda Flanagan]

And I'll tell you why. I once had a father who promised his daughter an ipod if she would finish in the top 20 of a race.

[Abby Wambach]

Unbelievable.

[Linda Flanagan]

She was very lackadaisical. And she did. She finished in the top 20. I think that's terrible because there's this thing called commercialization effect where when you attach money to every activity, it takes away from the non market value of that activity. And even at the Division 1 level, researchers have found that those Division 1 athletes who had been gotten athletic scholarships were less interested in playing than those who had not because it's like they associate it with this monetary reward. And if I'm not getting paid, I mean, Abby, it's kind of like you're saying, I'm going for a walk because I want to, not because someone's making it. I'm not getting paid to do it because I want to.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Linda Flanagan]

That money, I think, has a very corrupting effect on motivation and how your.

[Amanda Doyle]

Perception of the activity itself, it's like, ironically cheapening it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Even though you're giving money for it because you're like, the goal was worth so much more than the money if you actually could internalize what it meant to you.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

My dad paid me for goals in college.

[Linda Flanagan]

And did it motivate you? Did it help?

[Glennon Doyle]

It really did motivate me. But it's interesting because in my retirement, I've been retired for nine years, 10 years coming this December. And early on in my retirement, I started doing marathon training. Well, what did I think? I was like, oh, I'll get a shoe deal. That, that's good. I started learning how to surf. I started golfing. And I'm like, oh, maybe I'll do some pro Ams and maybe I could. And so, like, all of my thought process has this basis of understanding that, like, oh, sports is a way to earn money in a weird, insidious way. So now I promise myself, okay, whatever sports and hobbies I take on for the rest of my life, Abby, you don't need to earn money. You just do it for fun. And so that has totally changed. First of all, I suck at surfing, but it's incredible.

[Abby Wambach]

She's turning down deals left and right. Linda.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, it's incredible to me that I'm actually enjoying the process of doing something I'm not good at athletically.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes. I think that's great.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Linda Flanagan]

It's okay to not be great at everything.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Linda Flanagan]

You know, I mean, fun. It's nice to dabble and learn new things and to get better. And that's motivating in its own right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, totally.

[Abby Wambach]

Can I just say another thing that annoys me and then we can just not talk about it because I feel like it's going to be touchy. Have you noticed, Linda, in club soccer, also in, like, college soccer, that there feels like there's a system where the whole coaching staff is just a little old boys club, where they just control everything and their entire vibe is not to let anyone else in. Like actual celebrated female athletes who would be unbelievable coaches and role models for these girls. And they use tricks and they use the system to constantly replace themselves with their protege, who's the next guy, and they make it impossible for women to infiltrate the system and so what do you think about that?

[Linda Flanagan]

Well, I mean, it is an old boys club. You know that since Title IX was passed, ironically, we saw a drop in women coaches at the collegiate level. Used to be 90% of college women's coaches were women for coaching women's teams, and now it's 46%. It's a men's club. Men still kind of control the space. And I know many high school athletic directors, Bobby Moran at Thayer Academy, great athletic directors, constantly trying to recruit women coaches. But it's harder. There aren't as many women. And I experienced this when I was coaching my son in baseball when he was a rec team like you, Amanda, what you're doing, I was the only woman that did it because it kind of violates the norms. So, you know. Sure. At the college level, you know, they're not eager to have Abby come and do a talk. Is that right?

[Abby Wambach]

I'm just say this because I know that she has to be careful about what she says. I am less careful.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't have to be careful about what I say. I think about it a little differently than you do because you've not been in it for all of the years. I've been conditioned to believe that some of this stuff is normal. It's been normalized to me. I can understand how it can look and feel for somebody who hasn't been in it.

[Abby Wambach]

I guess what I've seen from the outside and then you say from the inside. It feels to me like when an Abby or say some of her at the same level friends approach or try to involve themselves in coaching staffs that I would think they would be falling over backwards.

[Linda Flanagan]

You would think?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Former national team players, former national team.

[Abby Wambach]

Professional athletes at the club level because their kids are in it, or at the college level because they went there. It is perceived as more of a threat to shut down than a gift to accept. And they are pushed to the side and there's resistance. There is no room for you here in a level that stuns me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. It's kind of baffling because these men who have built these college programs or these systems for, you know, many, many years, some of which I'm friends with and trust and actually were some of my favorite coaches. It's interesting to me that the first thought isn't, okay, I've built this system of women. I've built this 30 years of plus of alumni, that many are actually in the game coaching at other colleges, lower level colleges, because they haven't established themselves, yet I have all of these other women who could potentially take over for me. To me, that feels like such a full circle. Like, here we are. Okay. But it's interesting to think about how it's not that the path that they take, they, you know, hire more men in their coaching staffs and then they groom these men to take over for them when they want to step away from the game. And they do it in such a way that it makes it kind of impossible for the college to pick their own coach.

[Abby Wambach]

They tell us, we arrange it so that we have. I quit at a certain time that's too late for anyone to vote. And then my protege, this guy, he will step in and then there will be no time for any sort of inquiry, and this is how we will continue.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, but that's how all college teams do it. I mean, that's what Tony Bennett just did at uva. That's what UNC just did to make sure that they can anoint the next person. They're continuing their structure that they've built. It's also payback for servitude for those low level coaches.

[Linda Flanagan]

It's like an apprenticeship.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like an apprenticeship. The problem, I mean, that seems like the system as to why their apprentices are not women is a whole other question.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right. That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because that system could still work if they were intentionally trying to say these women should have women leaders.

[Abby Wambach]

Or if on the other side, maybe we have as many men coaching women, for example, as we have women coaching men. How about that? How about. Would that be fair? Like, when you say it that way, everyone's like, oh, that can't be. Yeah, why the hell not?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And I just want to say this because I just think it's really important that this is not to say that all men that are coaching women's sports are bad.

[Linda Flanagan]

Of course.

[Glennon Doyle]

And this is not to say that any of them are bad. This is just to say that statistically speaking, I would like to see a lot more women. Like Lennon just said, I would like to have the inverse of what's going on in the men's programs. However, many women are coaching the men's teams. I think that that should be the percentage of men coaching women's teams.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes, I totally agree. What do you do about the fact that there aren't as many women who want to coach?

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that true? I don't know the statistics on that.

[Linda Flanagan]

My understanding is they're not nearly as many women apply for the coaching jobs.

[Abby Wambach]

As men, all I can tell you is anecdotally what I have seen happen again and again is that when the women try, they are shut down. And I've seen it with my own eyes with the most elite athletes in the world.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, and you also just don't show up at an application for a college coaching job. You work your way up to that. And I'll tell you what, I am coaching, like no one gives a shit about the teams that I am coaching. It's the lowest rec league you can possibly imagine. And there is still an element of broness there.

[Linda Flanagan]

Where so true.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's not awesome. It's not awesome. It's not a great feeling. It's very different. There's another woman coach with me every time we like directly talk about it. It's a real thing. And of course they don't want to because it kind of sucks. And so if the environment didn't suck, I'm sure they'd want to.

[Abby Wambach]

Good call.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yeah. Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

I just wonder how much that has to do with. Because I know Title ix happened in 1972 and then the compliance inside of college sports didn't really start happening until the mid to late 90s.

[Linda Flanagan]

90S. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so that's really when more women were playing college sports. Sports. And I think what you're seeing now is that that progression of those coaches graduating from the colleges and you've got about a 5 to 10 year ramp up period where you're actually in the coaching world but at a lower level, maybe at a different college as an assistant coach and you get to work your way up. So I wonder if over the next generation we will see more women influxed into women's sports coaching. However, we also have to talk about what Glenn is talking about. Whether they get let in. Right. Like not just from the athletic departments, but it's from the former coaches that have been stewards of these programs for 30 plus years.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yes. And women coaches are generally more harshly judged than male coaches and considered soft. Like your coach Pia, who is positive. That can be construed as not serious.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Linda Flanagan]

Like she's just a lightweight. So it's all tied up with masculinity and sports. Masculinity, male values. So it's a hard domain to feel comfortable in. And you know, with any luck, more women will. But I also wonder in your case, Abby, if there was like you were a threat to them, you know, that they weren't eager to have you come in and you know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I think so.

[Linda Flanagan]

Do a much better job, Not.

[Glennon Doyle]

Not from where I went to college, because I was coached by a woman in college and the team now has a woman coach. And so they actually call upon me quite often for advice and talking to recruits as like a fun little Abby Wambach. You can talk to her and come to our school thing. But I do see it. I do see it across the board.

[Abby Wambach]

I want to offer one tiny. Because we need to wrap up here. And I can tell you that the best we've been able to do is continue to see it all clearly. You're in the whirlpool. If you're going to step in, you're going to be in the whirlpool. It is very important to keep seeing the whirlpool for what it is. Keep talking to your kids about what it is. We can't fix it all, but we can say, did you notice how much this is costing? Do you notice who's getting this attention? Do you notice those parents on the sidelines and what's happening? Do you notice how that makes your friend feel? What are the things that we can say or not say on the sideline that make you feel supported? That seems like the most simple, ridiculous thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's a game changer for you.

[Abby Wambach]

It has been. One kid wanted a certain thing, the other kid wanted nothing. Said the third kid want, mom, please just was very specific. Please stop saying good try, good effort that makes everybody know I just screwed up. Like, specific things like that. She's like, mom, the only people that say good try or good idea are when I did it wrong. I'm like, wow, that's so true. Very specific with me. You can do that. You can ask your kid, what ways do I show up that make you feel embarrassed? What ways do I show up that make you feel good? What do you want to talk about in the car after? Do you even want me to comment? They'll tell you. If they believe that, you'll listen.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think I just want to also say that having had the sports experience and career that I had, I have been conditioned to believe that sports were the end all be all for me and my life and my identity. And I also have had to pay a price for that. I've had to unlearn this kind of identity in some ways now that I no longer play soccer and I will never play soccer again. I know that. And I don't know. I sometimes think of an alternate reality where I didn't go play professional sports and maybe I'm still playing soccer and I'm still enjoying it for the rest of my life. But you couldn't literally pay me enough money to go play soccer again because I played it long enough. And I also want to say that even because I have my experience, I do think, in total, if you're in touch with your kids, sports are really good for your kids to be involved in. Just be in touch with them and talk to them and communicate with them about what they want. Let them be the driver. And also, I don't want my kid to be the boss of our family. I don't think anybody out there does. But it just starts to happen slowly but surely. And then this sports team club thing becomes like. There's this insidiousness that takes hold and.

[Abby Wambach]

And you're suddenly in a cult.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And it's like every other.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it's autopilot. There's no more intentionality over anything. It's just, pull the bar down on the seat and we're off. And then you're off. I think the other thing, Glenn, and something that I have had to reckon with is just really thinking about what I say I care about, what I actually care about, and then getting clear with myself about where there's a rub between the two. Because if I actually care when my kid doesn't perform well, then I need to be real intellectually honest with myself about. Is that what I'm doing here? Is that what I actually care about? Or do I actually care that they're in here working it out for themselves, getting back up again, lifting up their teammates, like, really distilling what you care about? And then when you inevitably feel sad or disappointed or discouraged or you can be like, ah, breathe through it. But good thing that's not what I actually care about, because what I actually care about is this thing. And you can ground yourself there. But it gets really confusing in the moment if you don't actually know what you care about.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's really good.

[Linda Flanagan]

And I think it's really important to have other things in life than sports, you know, for all kids, even those like you, Abby, who are as good as you or on that path, that they have other outlets in life so that all their eggs aren't in one basket, so that if they get hurt, they're not bereft. And so many of the experts say this, that kids need multiple sources of meaning in their life. It's not just from a sport. It's from something that's not quantifiable. Maybe it's knitting or cooking or art or working at an animal shelter, but other sources of meaning in their life so that all is not lost when their athletic career is over at whatever age that is. But if it becomes everything, it's going to be a very hard readjustment. So you want to encourage kids to do other things besides sports, have downtime.

[Amanda Doyle]

And also not the only source of connection to you in your relationship with your kid. Because then they might be thinking, I give up my sport, I give up my bond with my dad. I give up my sport, I give up my time with my mom. Like, you need the multiple connection points with your kid too, because that's really confusing to them.

[Abby Wambach]

You guys, thank you. I really appreciate that you're having these conversations. I think just exposing all of this and talking about it is going to help just in that just to make all the parents feel less crazy and be a little more intentional about the decisions we're making.

[Linda Flanagan]

I think also parents need to try to reclaim their agency somewhat, especially when the kids are young, to not feel like they have to do two seasons of soccer when their kids are nine years old, they don't have to do this. It's a choice. And that club coaches aren't the boss of them, that they can assert their agency as parents. And this is what we value. We value being home on Sundays or Saturday morning, whatever the case may be, but that you can carve out some time separate and apart from sports and not be beholden always to the coach.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. And there's a cost to that. There's a cost to that. But what we are here to say is there's a cost to. Not that.

[Linda Flanagan]

Yep, exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

There is a cost to saying, oh, we are actually not gonna do that. But there are so many costs involved with just giving up everything. And so make sure that you have analyzed what that prize is and make sure you want that prize for your kid before you give up everything in your family to get it. Thank you, Linda Flanagan. I enjoyed this so very much.

[Linda Flanagan]

Thank you guys. It was great to talk to you all.

[Abby Wambach]

The book is Take Back the Game. I love the subtitle. How Money and Mania Are Ruining Kids Sports and why It Matters. It's so important. Thank you for your work. Good luck out there, Pod Squad. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amand Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.