LIVE from Mexico with Brandi and Catherine Carlile

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: LIVE from Mexico with Brandi and Catherine Carlile
Release Date: February 25, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guests: Brandi Carlile, Kathryn Carlile, Tish Melton

---

1. Setting the Scene: A Vibrant Gathering in Mexico [01:48 - 04:05]

The episode kicks off with Glennon Doyle welcoming listeners to a special live recording of We Can Do Hard Things from a lively music festival in Mexico. This event, organized by Brandi Carlile and Catherine Carlile, marks the first large-scale live recording for the podcast, drawing thousands of attendees united by a shared vision of creating an "irresistible revolution."

Glennon Doyle:
"We're just here with thousands of gorgeous, irresistible human beings who are hell bent on creating what we discuss as an irresistible revolution."
[02:28]

2. Embracing Joy Through Music: The Impact of Muna [03:28 - 06:24]

The conversation shifts to the significance of the band Muna, whose joyful expression of queerness resonates deeply with the hosts and the audience. Glennon shares how Muna's music, particularly songs like "Silk Chiffon," showcases queerness as fun and beautiful, contrasting the often traumatic narratives in queer art.

Glennon Doyle:
"What I loved about Muna was that their expression of queerness is so joyful. Sometimes I feel like it's such a beautiful thing for young queer people to just see the joy."
[05:16]

Brandi Carlile:
"Don't worry, folks. I was sitting right there the whole time. I don't believe that Glennon wants Muna as her sexuality."
[05:34]

3. Building and Sustaining Community [13:14 - 38:34]

Brandi, Kathryn, and Tish delve into the essence of community, emphasizing the intentional creation and maintenance of supportive environments. Kathryn reflects on immigrating and integrating into Brandi's established community, highlighting the seamless embrace she experienced.

Kathryn Carlile:
"It was just brandy. And she already had this established community and family and friends around her. They fully embraced me."
[33:56]

Tish expands on the natural, almost instinctual connection people form within the community, drawing parallels to swarm intelligence in nature.

Tish Melton:
"It's a group of thousands of people who are witnessing and enduring a world adjacent to turmoil, coming together for four days every year, not to leave their emotions at the door, but to fully bring them in."
[18:17]

The hosts discuss the challenges of maintaining energy in large communities, especially for empaths, and strategies to manage social exhaustion.

Glennon Doyle:
"It can be a lot for people. What about community is hard for you too?"
[39:26]

4. Navigating Personal Grief and Growth [45:01 - 51:29]

The conversation takes a poignant turn as Brandi shares her experience with grief following her brother Peter’s passing. Glennon recounts a comforting moment where Brandi helped her reframe her fear of death through a meaningful story about St. Peter.

Brandi Carlile:
"My brother's death is such a big lesson that time will go by quickly unless you're paying attention."
[50:14]

Glennon Doyle:
"I have never met anyone who does community like you two."
[33:19]

5. Addressing Political Exhaustion and Maintaining Resilience [60:00 - 66:24]

Crystal, a longtime pod squad member, opens up about her political exhaustion and the challenge of staying engaged without succumbing to numbness. The hosts brainstorm ways to stay informed and resist fascism without draining their emotional reserves.

Crystal:
"I'm fighting the urge to just hide, to just check out, to go away."
[60:27]

Glennon Doyle:
"It's time to figure something else out... We're gonna build it. We'll do it together."
[65:57]

6. Listener Questions: Parenting, Identity, and Forgiveness [73:03 - 76:03]

Listeners submit heartfelt questions about parenting after expanding a family, reconciling past identities with present selves, and the process of forgiveness in relationships.

Listener Question on Parenting:
"What advice would you give somebody that currently might identify as queer because they don't fit in any sort of box with their identity, with gender, and also coming to their queerness later in life and how you reconcile your past with what it is now?"
[72:59 - 73:03]

Discussion on Forgiveness:
Tish and Glennon discuss the radical nature of forgiveness, both of oneself and others, emphasizing self-compassion and growth.

Glennon Doyle:
"When you think about it, we're always just doing the best we can. A new version of you is looking back at an old version of you and saying, oh, I wish I didn't do that. All that is is proof of growth."
[75:31]

Tish Melton:
"The most radical thing you can do is to forgive yourself and forgive someone else."
[73:21]

7. Exploring Gender and Sexuality [66:02 - 73:03]

A listener shares her complex feelings about gender, rejecting traditional binary labels in favor of personalized, meaningful expressions. The hosts engage with her narrative, validating her journey towards authentic self-expression.

Listener's Reflection:
"My gender is Trojan Horse... I don't know how to be in a space with men and not feel myself in a violent situation."
[72:38 - 73:04]

Glennon Doyle:
"I think one of your instincts to stop exposing yourself to this shit is really, really good. Stay informed in a way that doesn't hijack your nervous system."
[62:02]

8. Conclusion and Final Messages [76:03 - End]

As the episode winds down, Glennon and the team address the sunsetting of Together Rising, directing listeners to the Looking Out Foundation for continued support. They urge listeners to subscribe, rate, and share the podcast to sustain its mission.

Glennon Doyle:
"If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things: follow, rate, and share."
[80:09]

Closing Remarks:
The hosts express gratitude, reinforcing their commitment to supporting listeners through shared vulnerabilities and collective strength.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Glennon Doyle:
  "What I loved about Muna was that their expression of queerness is so joyful."
  [05:16]

• Brandi Carlile:
  "Don't worry, folks. I was sitting right there the whole time. I don't believe that Glennon wants Muna as her sexuality."
  [05:34]

• Tish Melton:
  "It's a group of thousands of people who are witnessing and enduring a world adjacent to turmoil, coming together for four days every year."
  [18:17]

• Glennon Doyle:
  "It can be a lot for people. What about community is hard for you too?"
  [39:26]

• Brandi Carlile:
  "My brother's death is such a big lesson that time will go by quickly unless you're paying attention."
  [50:14]

• Tish Melton:
  "The most radical thing you can do is to forgive yourself and forgive someone else."
  [73:21]

• Glennon Doyle:
  "When you think about it, we're always just doing the best we can. A new version of you is looking back at an old version of you and saying, oh, I wish I didn't do that. All that is is proof of growth."
  [75:31]

• Glennon Doyle:
  "If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things: follow, rate, and share."
  [80:09]

---

Key Takeaways

• Community as Resistance: The gathering in Mexico exemplifies creating a supportive, vibrant community as a form of resistance and positive revolution.

• Joyful Queerness: Embracing and celebrating queerness through joyful expression challenges the often trauma-focused narratives in queer spaces.

• Managing Empathic Exhaustion: Strategies for empaths to engage in large communities without depleting their emotional reserves.

• Grief and Growth: Personal stories highlight the journey through grief, emphasizing growth and the evolving understanding of loss.

• Political Resilience: Addressing political fatigue by finding ways to stay informed and engaged without overwhelming one's emotional well-being.

• Authentic Self-Expression: Encouraging listeners to move beyond traditional gender binaries and embrace personalized expressions of identity.

• Forgiveness as Liberation: Highlighting the importance of forgiving oneself and others as a path to personal liberation and growth.

---

We Can Do Hard Things continues to foster an environment where listeners can explore deeply personal and communal challenges, offering support, shared experiences, and actionable insights to navigate the complexities of life.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Get ready for today. Today's episode comes to you from Mexico.

[Brandi Carlile]

So exciting.

[Glennon Doyle]

We are in Mexico at a festival, a music festival started by and run by our dear dear friends Brandi Carlisle and Catherine Carlisle. We've recorded a live episode for you. This is the first time we've ever done a big live recording of We Can Do Hard Things with a huge audience. Thousands of people.

[Brandi Carlile]

There were thousands of people there who.

[Glennon Doyle]

Were at this recording with me, Abby, Brandy and Cath. Sister was not there, but it still was beautiful because of the energy of this festival. What you need to know, Pod Squad is that it was during inauguration weekend. During inauguration weekend we were in Mexico with thousands and thousands and thousands of queer, beautiful human beings who were just hell bent on not just resistance, but creating what we discuss in this episode as an irresistible revolution, which is Toni Cade Bambara's beautiful call to us that we not just Resist. We do resist, but we don't just resist. We become a movement that is so beautiful and full of life and humanity and love that we become irresistible. And just.

[Brandi Carlile]

That is what girls just Want a weekend is. It is. It's crazy.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is. And we are so excited for you to listen to this hour with these thousands of gorgeous, irresistible human beings. What I want to tell you before you listen is just a couple warnings. Okay? First of all, I felt really excited because I met this incredible band full of three gorgeous human beings inside and out. Their name is Muna.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, the band is Muna. They're incredible.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay? And in the episode, I say it's.

[Brandi Carlile]

Because there were thousands of people there. I just wanna preface, like, just the onstage with doing this in front of a lot of people. You just were all riled up.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was all riled up. And I said that Muna is my sexuality, okay? And then everyone just started freaking out. And I podsquad if you were there. I could see everyone's faces and Brandi and Cath and Abby, and I felt like, why is everyone making a big deal out of this Later. Okay, What I meant is that the Muna is three different vibes. There's three people in the group, and 1. They all have different, like, gender and sexuality expression. And what I meant was my expression of my sexuality is Muna. And the reason I'm making a big deal out of this introduction is because I felt like what I said was, like, I'm attracted to each of them, which would be fine, except I don't want to be objectifying these love bugs. Like, I didn't mean to objectify them. I actually just want to be their queer elder auntie, which I also express in this. I meant my sexuality expression is embodied in all three of them.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And just like, don't worry, folks. I was sitting right there the whole time. I don't believe that Glennon wants Muna as her sexuality.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay?

[Brandi Carlile]

I believe that things are fluid, and Glennon has the right to say and be whoever she is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you. And then I want to say one other Thinging before the pod squad listens is that there was this moment where all of this is about Muna. But I said that what I loved about Muna was that their expression of queerness is. Is so joyful. And sometimes I feel like it's such a beautiful thing for young queer people to just see the joy, because there's always. In queer art, there's so much tragedy and trauma, and that is real, too. But in songs like Silk chiffon. It's just so gorgeous to see artists saying queerness is fun and beautiful and doesn't have to have the trauma. And that actually was Tish's thought, but I didn't say it because I was afraid that. I mean, Tish was sitting.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, you stole it from her.

[Glennon Doyle]

I basically stole it from Tish.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, you stole it from her.

[Glennon Doyle]

But the reason why I didn't say that it was Tish is because she was sitting right in the front row and I didn't have her permission to say it. So afterwards I asked her if I could say it was her idea, and she said yes. So anyway, good luck with all that.

[Brandi Carlile]

But tell him who comes out and opens the event for us.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, and you all. Okay, so we're about to record. We're in this place with thousands of people. Brandi and Kath are there, and then Brandy and Tish go out on stage and together sing the we can do Hard things song to open up the whole thing. And you all are about to hear that now.

[Tish Melton]

Thank you for coming in out of the sun for a little while to join us and do some soul work. Sing along if you know this song. You do. I walk through fire I came out the other side I chased desire and made sure I got what's mine and I continue to believe that I am the one for me and because I'm mine I walk the light these were adventurers and heartbreaks are back A final destination we lack we stopped asking directions to places they never been to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard things I hit rock bottom at the bottom it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem Sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe.

[Kathryn Carlile]

The.

[Tish Melton]

Best Most people are free and it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks I'm back the final destination we lack we stopped asking directions to places they have never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard things Cause we're adventurous and heartbreaks are mad we might get lost but we're okay with that We've stopped asking directions to place places they've never been to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find a way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard things. Yeah, we do hard things. Yeah, we all do hard things.

[Brandi Carlile]

Tish Melton, everybody. Give it up, everybody.

[Tish Melton]

She got so nervous right before, and then she's just, like, unstoppable.

[Glennon Doyle]

We call it Skyted in our family. You know when you're half scared, half excited, and you can't decide which one skyded? Well, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things, everybody.

[Brandi Carlile]

Do they know that this is an actual podcast that we are recording that will literally be on the We Can Do Hard Things podcast feed.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's the first podcast we've ever recorded outside of our son's bedroom. That is true.

[Kathryn Carlile]

We've been there. It's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Yeah. So this is different. And the reason we decided to do this is because we don't have a more special place or experience than this weekend. This is a bit of a.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's our North Star every year now, now that we've been. This is our second year, and we're coming every year. I hope we get invited.

[Glennon Doyle]

So we wanted to tell the Pod Squad about it. We wanted to tell the people who listen all over the world every week about this place and you people. And so we're here with two of the. The most important people in our hearts and lives. You know them, they're Brandy and Cath.

[Brandi Carlile]

Brandi Carlisle and Kathryn Carlile, for those listening.

[Glennon Doyle]

And one of the reasons why I'm excited to do this is because Brandy and Cath are hard to give compliments. There's some kind of, like, Teflon situation that happens where I don't know if they're just so used to hearing gratitude and awe from people. And so I just actually had to, like, make it my. Like, I needed you to be on my show so I could tell you things and you'd have to sit there.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. What I'd like to do first is to ask Brandy first to use whatever language is available to you in this moment to try to describe to the Pod Squad what girls just want a weekend is. What is this? What is happening? Exactly.

[Brandi Carlile]

Good luck.

[Tish Melton]

I mean, I just have to start by saying it's just so important to me. I need it so. So much as a reminder of how people can be when they get together on Mass and how. You know, we were talking earlier about swarm intelligence, how you see these flocks of birds change direction, and you're like, how are they communicating with each other? You know, or flying fish or bees or something like that. And there's just something beautiful about the fact that we are meant to be Innately connected to one another and spiritually aligned. And we come to this place and everybody just gets it. And even the new people, you just get here and you get it. It's a little culty, but it. That just doesn't bother me. I think it.

[Kathryn Carlile]

That doesn't surprise me.

[Tish Melton]

I just think it's innately good. You know, I was. I was telling Shania the other night because Shania was just like, hasn't ever seen anything like this before. And, you know, I'm always a little worried about what outsiders are going to think when they come in and see how we all behave for four days. But she was pretty stoked. And I was trying to tell her. I was like, you know, when Lilith Fair came to town in like 1997, I was like 16 or 17 years old, and it was like, kind of the first big thing I got to do on my own with, like, a group of friends. Friends. And we were in this little sapphic rock band and just like, living our best lives in the sun at Lilith Fair. And I remember I had, like, money to buy, like, a Big Gulp sized Mountain Dew. And I was all sunburned like a baby dyke with, like, my hair all cut short. And I remember, like, just standing in this line to go get my Mountain Dew. And there was this woman that was just like, honey, come here. And she just put sunscreen all over my shoulders. And she said, you can buy one thing with that money and that's water. And I was like, I'm not gonna get away with shit here. Like, but there was just something about. And then it was like, all her friends were the same and they're, you know. And then I met somebody else that was like, well, who were you with? You need to sit with us. You know, like, there was just this thing that was taking place where women were put into positions of agency, autonomy, and power. Something happens to the people that go to support that. And I think that that might be minimizing what's happening here, because I'm learning that it might be more powerful than that, but it has something to do with it. And I kind of feel like I'm 16 again every time I'm here.

[Glennon Doyle]

How does it make you feel, Kath?

[Kathryn Carlile]

First of all, this is terrifying. Speaking of hard things, I don't know whose idea it was to give me a microphone and have me talk, but seriously, I just feel really proud. Just proud of the lineup, proud of the work and effort it takes for our incredible crew and team to put this on. There are so many People responsible for this special shout out to Snelly Cat. She's out there somewhere and just really proud of the community that really built this. Because people keep saying, this is so amazing, what you and Brandy have built here. And I say, it's not us, it's you.

[Tish Melton]

It's you.

[Kathryn Carlile]

And for as long as you keep showing up and we'll keep showing up, and it's just a privilege and an honor to do this every year, and.

[Tish Melton]

We won't let you down.

[Brandi Carlile]

We'll work.

[Tish Melton]

We'll work long days, anything we can, to be worthy of what you guys create here.

[Brandi Carlile]

I just want to do more of a detailed. Like, what is it? So in five words, you know, just like.

[Glennon Doyle]

So it's like a flock. It's like a flock of birds. We have some guidelines, and then suddenly we change direction.

[Brandi Carlile]

For the listener. I'm saying for the listener who has no idea what we're talking about.

[Tish Melton]

Okay, okay. I'm talking to them. I need to be talking about them. I understand. I understand.

[Glennon Doyle]

I didn't even think of that. I thought, great, we're a flock of birds.

[Tish Melton]

This is a group of thousands of people who are witnessing and enduring a world adjacent to, if not completely entrenched in turmoil, coming together for four days every year, not to leave their emotions and their feelings and their fears at the door, but to fully bring them in, break them apart, and share with one another's burdens to be here in support of each other and to be here in the euphoria of music under the stars, just being fully who they are, whatever that means. For four days.

[Brandi Carlile]

Boom.

[Kathryn Carlile]

That just comes out your mouth just like that.

[Brandi Carlile]

It is what it is. I'm actually going to ask Glennon a question, because I want to know what it means to you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It meant something different last year, what it means to me this year. I keep having this challenge at Girls Just Wanted, which is that I just keep starting to cry constantly. And actually, everyone in our family, somebody breaks down every day, and it's like this huge thing, and then it's me maybe four, four or five times a day. And it's very hard to describe. It's not a feeling. It's not, I'm happy or I'm sad. It is like a internal swelling that is just like being in the presence of complete truth and complete kindness. I guess it's love is what it is. It's just like. It's like coming out of my body or something in tears, and then it's like baptism all the time. But I Also, what it means to me this year. We were talking about this earlier, like, what we're gonna have to do this year in particular. Like, what is this gonna look like? And we're talking about how the language has been really around resistance for so long, and that that's just not beautiful enough anymore. That, like, resisting something means that the thing that's most important is the other thing. It's in reaction to something.

[Tish Melton]

Whoa.

[Glennon Doyle]

And right. It's like, the other thing is the most important, and we're just reacting to it. But that is not what we're doing here. Like, I don't even know who else exists here. And there was this artist named Toni Cade Barbera. And she said that the job of the artist is to make the revolution irresistible. And this is irresistible. Right.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Well said.

[Glennon Doyle]

You don't have to yell at anybody, actually. That's so exhausting. I'm so tired. Like, I just want joy and beauty and love and this ness. And then everybody else will be like, I want that. Right? So that's what it is to me. It's an irresistible revolution. And you guys started building. I know you're always like, it wasn't us. I mean, okay, all right. Okay. It was definitely you. And you built it before we needed it. And when you say things like, we will show up as long as you show up, people don't say that shit like, that makes me want to cry that you said that.

[Kathryn Carlile]

You can cry, Glennon. You know, in the production office, we have a crying corner. I think we should have one at the festival, too. Need some crying corners.

[Glennon Doyle]

I will just take office hours there, and people can meet me there, actually. Yeah, let's do that next year.

[Kathryn Carlile]

You need one?

[Glennon Doyle]

What do you want to talk about next?

[Brandi Carlile]

Love me.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can you talk to us about. We've had so many conversations over the last eight hours, and I don't know how many of them are appropriate for public. So why don't you pick one?

[Kathryn Carlile]

We're all friends here.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, I think. I think one of the things that this space and this weekend gives me is it allows me to be in my body and experience folks like Muna last night and to be, like, really, really, like, raw and honest. There's, like, a kind of jealousy that. That lives in me for their expression and their freedom in their expression. And I don't know if any of the older lesbians in the room would understand what I'm saying, but I think that when I watch them perform, I think you done good, kid. And all of you and all of you old, older lesbians who have charted the path, the ones that came before us, You've done good, kid.

[Tish Melton]

All of it. It's all down to the things that. Yeah, it's all down to the things that these people did when they didn't have a stage. And the fact that now it has a stage is just like. It's like being on a roller coaster watching that happen. But I know what you mean about that kind of little twinge of pain.

[Brandi Carlile]

Of like I have a 15 year old self, a 10 year old self who's like, oh, yes. And oh, I'm sad for you.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And that's all real and it's so beautiful. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I just. I just am so in touch with. And it feels like so many things are happening every single day here that I'm. There's just like this instant, like, whoa, this doesn't happen in the real world. And I'm just so grateful for this container because it allows me to see my growth. It allows me to see where I might be falling short or where I still have more growth to make. So it's just such a beautiful. And everybody's so lovely and nice. So thank you for being so lovely and nice.

[Tish Melton]

Is there a joint like pod in the future between you and Muna? Because they love you guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

I woke up this morning and I said, my sexuality is Muna.

[Brandi Carlile]

This is now news to me. She did not tell me this. So we.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, I don't mean information. I mean, I am. I've already composed emails in my head about how I can get them to accept me as their queer elder auntie.

[Tish Melton]

Like they have and they, they want to, they want to like talk. I mean, this is like, you know who should talk about this with is them. Is them. Because they actually have such insight. Like, I've been able to pull them aside for a couple of conversations and the things that they are thinking about and the things that they are saying are so heartening and so beautiful and so exciting that I just. You guys got to talk to them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, well, is there any other way?

[Brandi Carlile]

For sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

That sounds scary, but we'll do that. Okay. No, I just love their joy and their freedom and their. I loved that they said just Venmo us. I was like, oh my God, you're just like taking away all the middlemen. Like, there's something very revolutionary about that.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah. I was sitting with Shania and she looked at me and she goes, I trust her. And I go, I do too I'll.

[Glennon Doyle]

Give her all my money. Whatever you want to do, Katie, take our money. Because there's also, like, all the queer art can be so angsty and painful and, like, it all has to be so. And to see them just be like, oh, no, it's gonna be joyful. Like, silk chiffon makes me. I'm like, yes. Silk chiffon. Shit, yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

Anyway, we've gone down a little muna track. Let's just bring it back and we're going to talk about the sexuality thing later.

[Glennon Doyle]

Shit, I knew that was going to come back to bite me.

[Tish Melton]

I don't want to miss that.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm just like, which one?

[Glennon Doyle]

All of them. All of them.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Let's guess. Let's guess.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes. Abby trying to figure it out.

[Glennon Doyle]

All of them. Equally. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Brandi Carlile]

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[Glennon Doyle]

I want to go back to what you were talking about because. So this thing happened that I wonder if anyone can relate to. So. So we were at a bank and.

[Kathryn Carlile]

You were at a bank.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. It was so weird.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Did you say bank?

[Glennon Doyle]

A bank? Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

This is an old story. Not in Mexico.

[Kathryn Carlile]

It goes to a bank.

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was when we first got married and the bank guy gave us a piece of paper and it said. Gave it to us at a table and it said, husband, wife. And I was like, first of all, are you serious? Like, are you looking? Do you. And I said some things about how they might update their paperwork and that we wouldn't be at this bank anymore unless their paper was. And, like, the time to update their paperwork was like last century. And so it was just like, honestly, a normal Tuesday for me. And we left and we got in the van and Abby said, it makes me feel sad in moments like that because I think, why am I not brave like that? And we had it started, this beautiful conversation. And it's because I grew up with straight privilege. When I walk into a room, I'm expecting to be treated with equality. I'm expecting a certain thing. And how did you feel?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I mean, I grew up kind of hiding and apologizing for my sexuality a lot. It wasn't in any way celebrated, not only in my family, but, you know, in our communities and in our country and the world. And I just felt kind of in all of those little microaggressive moments, I always just felt like, oh, I need to make myself smart smaller here and apologize for my space that I was occupying. And so when we got in the car, I was baffled that this five foot two. Yes, you are five two, not five four woman, she just flung the papers across the table and she just said, fix this. I'm not signing something that doesn't make any sense to me.

[Glennon Doyle]

But that wasn't my point. My point is that it was privilege, not courage.

[Tish Melton]

I understand.

[Glennon Doyle]

You were so brave. You paved the way for people like me to be like, I'm not taking this shit like you and you. And you did that. What does community mean to you two? I have never met anyone who does community like you two. Not. This is just the tip of the iceberg of your lives. You have made me less afraid of people.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes, thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, it's something very deep. Like, I call you, you call me, we'll talk about that.

[Tish Melton]

The phone rings and you might answer.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, but no, I just mean in a deep way. The way that you invite people into your lives, in a way that you're not scared of, the way that you invite people on stages. What does community mean to you? And when you talk about it with each other, how do you make decisions about how you do it? Why does your life look like it looks.

[Tish Melton]

Do you want to take that one, baby?

[Kathryn Carlile]

I mean, I think it's completely unplanned. Honestly, it's interesting because for us to be together, I had to emigrate, and I left my entire community behind. Maybe some of them are here.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know.

[Kathryn Carlile]

They're probably drinking tequila somewhere, but. So I was kind of starting over with no friends and family, and it was. It was just brandy. And she already had this established community and family and friends around her. And I think initially I had, like, a little bit of resistance to it because I was a bit of a hermit, too. Like, I kind of. But I honestly don't know how I could have made that transition without being welcomed immediately by her community. And I think it's so incredibly important. They didn't really know who I was. You know, they hadn't met my friends. They hadn't really met My family, but they fully embraced me. And I remember, for our London wedding, Tim comes to the London wedding, and I think it was the first time he'd met my community. And he pulled me aside and he said, you've got so, so many friends. And I was like, well, yeah, I. You know, I lived 30 years before I met Brandy. And he said. He goes, If I'm honest, I was wondering whether you were a total loner and you had just kind of come over and, you know, moved to America. And it just cracked me up because. What was the question?

[Glennon Doyle]

It doesn't matter. What do you mean to you? We will talk is essential.

[Kathryn Carlile]

It's essential. Community is essential.

[Tish Melton]

I love hearing you have to say that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Tish Melton]

So Catherine, when she was in London, like, people would come to her door and knock on her door and she would not come downstairs and answer the door. Well, it had to be scheduled. It had to be scheduled.

[Kathryn Carlile]

British people schedule things. Okay. We schedule cups of teas and FaceTime meeting and, like, months in advance.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Carlile]

So if your doorbell rings in Britain, you're like, who is that?

[Tish Melton]

Yeah. And why are they here? Yeah. And I'm just like. My favorite song growing up was Car Wheels on a Gravel Road because I just wanted to hear people approaching me. I just wanted to hear that there was constantly going to be someone in my space every day. And I have always really kind of doubled down on community or, you know, I've been accused of being extremely codependent by mystery people and have dealt with the reality of that probably most of my life. And it's a bit of a controversial thing. You know, I think a lot about Joni's lyrics and that Hejira album about these pilgrimages and to flee with honor and to go and find yourself. And I get all that. And it may be a controversial take on things, but I just really, really fundamentally don't believe. Correct me, fix me later. But I don't believe people are meant to be alone. Doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship, you know, it doesn't mean you have to be with your dysfunctional family if that's toxic for you. It just means you cannot become isolated and disenfranchised. You have to find your people so that you have support and spiritual alignment with your fellow human beings, because it helps you. Reflects who you are back onto you. And I don't know how to live without as many people as I can get my hands on.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, I spent many a day on a team and figuring out what, like, the art of Teamwork and teammanship and, Brandy, I still. I am learning from you and Kathryn. It's really an art the way that you collaborate with all the people, and there isn't, like, this perception of hierarchy that you bring to any stage or any room or any conversation. You both are so open and generous with so much of your time and your heart, and I just. Honestly, I just think you've chosen such a beautiful path for yourself in life, and I just want to, on behalf of this group, like, thank you for showing all of us, like, what true community builders can look like and, like, how it can come to fruition in weekends like this. It's really beautiful, you know, that's so beautiful.

[Tish Melton]

And you are. I'm gonna put you on the spot in a moment, and I'm go on about you two and community, too, in a second. But I want to say one thing about people that are exhausted by community and how. Right.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Like our daughter sometimes.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Carlile]

And me sometimes.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah. And it's. It's not like a. It's not friction. It's not an inability to be with other people or acquiesce or be flexible. It's feeling too many people's feelings, taking on all that respect, responsibility, and wondering how you could possibly conserve any energy when there are so many people in the room that you really just want to lean into.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Yeah. I think if you're an empath, it can be exhausting.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Yes. I sometimes think that I'm, like, I'm not a jerk. I'm just very sensitive. But. And I mean that in a way. Like, truly, if I'm in a room with a lot of people, Abby and I can be in the same room and leave and report computer. Completely different experiences.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. It can be a lot for people. What about community is hard for you too?

[Kathryn Carlile]

Well, Brandy's stamina is just kind of unbelievable. The stamina for performance.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hey, she just.

[Tish Melton]

She.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Is there a little section?

[Glennon Doyle]

No. No. Double enchanted there? No.

[Kathryn Carlile]

I'll let you make up your minds about that. But she. She's, like, the last one standing. I mean, me and the twins are like, can we leave this place? And she's like, just so. I think it's. It's like a battery power thing. Like, I hide in bathrooms sometimes just to recharge and go back out so I can keep up with her. So, I mean, would that be true in your case? Like, actually, when she does. When her batteries do die, it's instant. And there are signs of that happening. It looks like this, and then I'm like, oh, it's happened. It's happened. Somebody save her. Somebody save her. No, you don't get a warning. It just.

[Tish Melton]

No, I think it's just that, like. And the kids know this and Katherine knows this, and this is probably the biggest criticism that I've learned to sustain about is like, Brandy's gonna. Brandy. And it's like, from the time I was a kid, somebody would come to my house. I would answer the door with a Nintendo controller in one hand and flip the person off with the other hand and go, there's Zonia in the fridge.

[Glennon Doyle]

Fuck off.

[Tish Melton]

I'm gonna take a shower. And, like, not even not be present, just do whatever I was gonna do anyway. And that's my. That's how I get through days. Like, this is just deciding on my own whether or not to wear makeup or get out of my pajamas. And I'm just gonna, like, turn up and be however I am. Sorry. And that, you know, hasn't always been great, but that's how I don't get tired, is. I know I'm just gonna. I don't know how to not just be exactly how I am at all times. And that could mean totally ignoring someone or everyone while they're in my home.

[Glennon Doyle]

I feel like that's actually quite profound. I mean, I remember somebody recently said to me I had to show up for something. And I said, how do I do it? What am I supposed to do? And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up. And then I thought, what the hell does that mean? And I'm not sure. But it's not that.

[Tish Melton]

No, I don't know what it is. It's like a social problem I have.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's good.

[Tish Melton]

But it does give me a lot of stamina because I'm not really rising to the occasion.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Tish Melton]

You know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's good.

[Brandi Carlile]

If you're always yourself, then you have nothing to worry about. Like, then it's your battery. It's not the world turning the dial for you. You're turning it yourself. And so when you're tired, you're like, I'm out of battery. No problem.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah. What do you have to offer me?

[Brandi Carlile]

Exactly.

[Tish Melton]

Exactly. I'm tired. Welcome. Give me something. Give me energy or a new thing or a goss. Like, let's. Yeah, let's talk, you know? Like, you know, definitely. I'm always open to whatever I can get from another person. And now that Catherine, I would say you're like that. You don't have a choice. Because Americans, they just.

[Kathryn Carlile]

They just what?

[Tish Melton]

They just grab you? We don't let you go?

[Kathryn Carlile]

Well, I grab them, too.

[Tish Melton]

You're our Mary Poppins, you know.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Well, I don't know about that, but it's funny. It's like a dance, isn't it? There's signals, you know, when somebody's tapped out, you kind of step in and you take the reins. And Brandy's. One of Brandy's signals, which is really hilarious, is that we. When we have house guests sometimes and she's done, she goes to the piano and starts playing music. And I'm like, if you want people to leave your house, don't fucking go and play piano.

[Tish Melton]

But I'm gone. I'm gone at that point. Then I'm in a piano and I'm just not there, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so sad if we're at Brandy and Kat's house and Brandi starts playing the piano.

[Tish Melton]

Has that ever happened?

[Brandi Carlile]

No. I'm so grateful. Now I know and be like, okay, see you later. We're out of here.

[Glennon Doyle]

Here's the thing. This is going to maybe sound like a weird question, but does building community take a lot of confidence? Like, I keep thinking you just invited all these people here and just, like, assumed that people would come. Like, that's so terrifying.

[Tish Melton]

And that everything will be okay and that, you know, we're not gonna have lightning every night and that we're not all gonna get norovirus and that, you know, and it's like, yeah, no, it takes. It's actually can be a bit like crippling fear sometimes for me, because I'm just so afraid that whatever I told everybody to come do is gonna be like fyre festival. And it's just gonna be. I have nightmares about it, you know, but again, it's not about me being victorious at the end of a successful weekend. It's about everyone else experiencing each other and me remembering that I'm really just a part of it. I'm not trying to air our dirty laundry or make our, like, you know, our lives, like, too public, but the things that I have called you to for advice about the ways that we have leaned into one another and our families and our kids. It's been life giving for our family. And I know that when we do that for each other, it has a ripple effect that can extend to all of our friends here. And it's pretty extraordinary the things we've talked each other through.

[Brandi Carlile]

For sure. Right back at you.

[Tish Melton]

You're leaders in Ways that I think people feel but don't overtly know.

[Kathryn Carlile]

They know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Tish Melton]

They know they're behind almost everything me and Kath do. Right. That's the truth.

[Glennon Doyle]

Should we take some questions?

[Brandi Carlile]

I do think Q and A time we have.

[Glennon Doyle]

Where?

[Brandi Carlile]

Where are they? Devin, you're right here.

[Tish Melton]

Right here, yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Question is largely for Abby. As a professor of communication turned college dean, my introduction to you was not soccer, sadly, but the Bernard commencement address.

[Brandi Carlile]

And over the last six years, especially.

[Glennon Doyle]

In my leadership journey, I know that.

[Tish Melton]

Taking care of that wolf pack is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Important, but more than anything, the mantra for me has been give me the fucking ball.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it has meant everything to me and changed me this past year.

[Tish Melton]

Lost my mom.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I appreciate your discussions about journey of grief and where you have come.

[Tish Melton]

To and moving on.

[Glennon Doyle]

I actually listened to them on the way to my best friend's mom's funeral, which was really sort of powerful and poignant.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I really especially appreciated talking about.

[Glennon Doyle]

The not knowing being the point. As a bit of a control freak, that's a struggle for me. And because you gave me a mantra before that changed me, I'm wondering if you have mantras or self talk that.

[Brandi Carlile]

Keeps you in a positive space in.

[Glennon Doyle]

The grief journey more often than not.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Thank you so much. And for those who may not know, my brother passed away a year ago. And so this last year has been a little bit of a doozy. And I'm so sorry for your loss. I know that it's tough and confusing, and it feels like the mantra of my year this year is like, I'm good. And one of the most beautiful things, because I kind of think that this group grief thing kind of goes in a circle and it just kind of keeps spiraling. And for me, I've kind of completed this full year circle, and my brother's death is such a big lesson that time will go by quickly unless you're paying attention. Right. Like, you ever wake up and you're like, my God, where did that month go? But then there's like a few days or a week that goes by, and it's just like, so slow. And those slow days are what I'm, like, aching for. I'm aching for slowness. Not to slow time down, but to be as completely present as possible and to be as completely grateful for the breath that I have for this experience this weekend to be with you all. And Glennon, I guess it was like 9, 10, 11 months after he had passed away, told me this beautiful story. My brother's name is Peter. And she said, hey, I have this. Do you want to tell the story?

[Glennon Doyle]

I'll tell the first part. Okay. So Abby has always been very, very, very afraid of death. And I know we're all afraid of death, but this was kind of huge. And it took us, like, too many years to figure out that it was tied to the fact that when she was a child, people taught her that there was a fiery place full of flames and devils that after she died, she would go to. It turns out that can do a number on a kid. Okay, we should rethink that story.

[Brandi Carlile]

So I was told I was going to hell.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I mean, I think they got okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

I know. Just, you know, it's not, like I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Said, making sure birds. I feel like I'm sure we're all.

[Brandi Carlile]

Following along your line.

[Glennon Doyle]

So. I always felt like if I were a superhero, my super power would be stories. Like, I would, like, look at you and be like, I know you think you deserve to be with a cheater, but I have a better story. Like, I know that you think this, but I have a better story. Like, just more beautiful and more beautiful, beautiful stories, because we're all living inside of them. And so now you go.

[Brandi Carlile]

And so Glennon told me that in the Christian faith, Jesus, one of his apostles, was named Peter, and Jesus gave Peter, Peter, the keys to heaven. And when she told me that, she was like, so you know your brother's name is Peter? And so Peter. And you don't know my brother Peter, but he was like the biggest, loveliest teddy bear, welcomed, everybody wanted. He was like, basically, if he was the bouncer at a bar, he would let everyone in. So she was like, so don't you see? Like, your brother is deciding who gets in, and he's letting you in.

[Tish Melton]

That is a better story.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I was like this. Like, you should. I mean, tears were rolling down my face. I was like, you have kept this from me for one year. But she knew. She knew I had to be ready to hear it. And so actually, she ended up giving me this medallion of St. Peter. And it's really beautiful, and I wear it almost all every day. And so in terms of a mantra, like, this year, I feel like right now I'm good, and I don't know, tomorrow I might be like, not. Grief is weird. And for me, too, as a recovered addict, I didn't realize that the grief that I was going to experience with my brother, I was also going to be dragging the train of grief that I had not yet dealt with. And that was a doozy. Still a doozy. And so it's just something that I have learned to. I've resisted it. And now I have learned to accept that grief will now live within me and that I will constantly be returning to it for the rest of my life. And that is okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you.

[Brandi Carlile]

Sorry for your loss.

[Glennon Doyle]

Beautiful day.

[Brandi Carlile]

Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I'm excited to tell you today about Midi Health. If you have heard our menopause episodes, you know how passionate I feel about women health having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives. Here's the deal. If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause, log on to Midi Health. I have done this. It is easy. In fact, I have recently been pursuing with many health hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body. They're clinicians. They meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. It's all through telehealth and 247 messaging and they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at Join midi. That's Join midi.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Kathryn Carlile]

Hi, my name is Valerie.

[Glennon Doyle]

So my wife, my wife have spent. My wife and I have spent the.

[Brandi Carlile]

Last five years building our family.

[Kathryn Carlile]

It's been pretty much our only focus.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because we, we were going through fertility treatments and we Actually lost one of our sons.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I feel like that's a lot.

[Glennon Doyle]

About, like, you as the mom. And, like, I carried the babies, and.

[Kathryn Carlile]

So I felt very much like it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Was about me, and it was like, sort of took it on as my identity.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Now that we're done. We just had a baby six months ago.

[Brandi Carlile]

Congratulations.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you. I find myself trying to put that energy somewhere where I'm not worrying about.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Being a good mom or nitpicking the.

[Glennon Doyle]

Things my kids and my baby are doing. And I really want to shift my focus.

[Kathryn Carlile]

So I was wondering, and you've talked.

[Glennon Doyle]

About this a little bit about having.

[Kathryn Carlile]

The right kind of focus on your kids, if you have any advice about.

[Glennon Doyle]

Who we can be for moms that.

[Brandi Carlile]

Are done growing our family and we're.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Just trying to grow with our family.

[Brandi Carlile]

Great question.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Can anyone else answer this question? I mean, I. I think I struggle with the exact same thing. Honestly, it's. Gosh, I wish I knew the answer to this question. Does anyone?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, no, for sure not. But let's say things anyway.

[Tish Melton]

Say stuff. That's all I do.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Children, well, listening to them. I find myself talking over my kids a lot. And I try to catch myself when it happens, and more often than not, they catch me doing it. And my little Elijah, she's. No, listen. No, listen to me. No, mum, listen, like. And I'm like, okay, you have my attention. I think children just really show us everything we need to know about ourselves. Ultimately, they're like. I don't want to sound cliche, but they really are. A mirror. That's good.

[Tish Melton]

Talk about mom guilt, honey.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Oh, gosh.

[Tish Melton]

Every day that you have.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Yeah, I struggle with mum guilt every single day, several times a day. And it's something I still struggle with, and I don't even know where it comes from. I think parenting is just really difficult. You're never going to feel like you're really winning. Most of the time you're going to feel like you're failing. But I think it's just really human. And I don't know. I really don't know the answer to this. You speak. Somebody else speak.

[Glennon Doyle]

Beautiful.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's great.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that if I could do it over.

[Brandi Carlile]

Our children are here.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, that's right. And then I change. Nothing right there.

[Brandi Carlile]

Just as a reminder.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, they know this. They know this. I think that I would have shifted some of the energy that I. I think I over indexed on the I've got you energy. I think it was very important for me to feel like the kids knew That I had them, that I had their back, that their mom would do anything for them, that I would always make sure they were okay. And I wish. And I'm trying to fix it now, but I wish that I had put a little less emphasis on I've got you, and a little more emphasis on you've got you.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that's where the magic is. That's what we're trying to do. We're just trying to create space where they figure out, I don't have to look to you. I can look to me, and you'll be there, but I've got me. And I think one of the ways we can do that, wait till they get older and start to go out into the world and have their own lives. Because what you find out is that it wasn't just your identity. For me, it's the only place that I've ever felt real belonging, ever, is in this little microcosm of humans. And so when they start leaving, it's not only a loss of identity, but it's a loss of belonging, of just a lot. And so what I have figured out is that it's like, you know, how. Okay, let's say they're like butterflies, right? If you chase them, they just fly faster. Okay. Like, and I have tried. There's a chasing energy as they grow that does not work and becomes a burden to them. And you become like. They come back because they think that you need them as opposed to the other way around. And so there is a way of doing it, I think, that is more like creating. Creating your little life as that kind of butterfly garden that's, like, so beautiful and so fertile and so attractive that they just want to come back. And I think, like, what I know about you already is that you're doing it because you're here. You already do have an identity outside those babies. You already are creating yourself and your life and creating an irresistible revolution that they will want to come back to.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah, that's it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Tish Melton]

And then they'll be there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Tish Melton]

And I want to say one thing really quick. Too early. Quick thing is that Alex said something earlier about returning to the ones who remember you is that, you know, you went through a really intense journey when you went through IVF and when you did your family planning. And a person that watched you do it is your wife. And I promise you, your wife is in awe of you, and she knows exactly who you are and who you were, and she'll help you find it again.

[Brandi Carlile]

So good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi. I'm Crystal. I'm a longtime member of the pod squad. Really excited to get to do this. I'm also somebody who's been pretty active and politically engaged my whole life. And after eight years of maga, I find myself exhausted and full of a simmering rage that's just right there all the time.

[Tish Melton]

Hear that giggle of agreement?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Tish Melton]

Those are your people.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I'm, you know, grieving things we've already lost. I. I'm grieving the things that are gonna come. And I'm fighting the urge to just hide, to just check out, to go.

[Tish Melton]

Away and just duck and cover and.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wait for four years to be over. But I know that's a trap. It's self protective, and I get that, but it's also self sabotaging because that's not who I am. I'm curious and open and kind and soft. And I'll be damned if I let some fucking fascists take that from me. Okay, so. So I know that's a trap. They can take a lot of things, but they can't have me. So I would really love any of your thoughts about how we avoid that urge to wall off and get cynical and protect ourselves instead. Just keep showing up for each other and not giving up who we are. Because it's awful.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So. Yeah. Any thoughts on that?

[Brandi Carlile]

You too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can you tell them what you texted me the day after the election?

[Tish Melton]

Yeah. Yeah. I wrote a song that just. I just was thinking of you the whole time I was writing it, that song, Human. And I sent you the lyrics and I sent you the song. But what else did I text you?

[Glennon Doyle]

You said, I know. Oh God.

[Tish Melton]

You said, I texted you like five miles of Texas.

[Glennon Doyle]

You said it was. One of the things you said was, I know it's awful, I know it's horrible, but have you ever seen something about a forest?

[Kathryn Carlile]

What was it? What was it?

[Tish Melton]

I said, no, I don't think I've.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ever seen a forest. Should I find a forest?

[Tish Melton]

I said, and this is so. So it's. It's not been lost on me that. That verse. I don't want to cry now.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Where's the crying corner?

[Tish Melton]

I said, have you ever seen the beauty of a wildfire sun?

[Kathryn Carlile]

Oh my.

[Glennon Doyle]

She said, I know it's all awful, but have you ever seen the beauty of a wildfire sun, son? So I think.

[Tish Melton]

And then I texted her, wildfire son. Okay. The photo of one.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. She texted me. Cuz she knew I sure as hell hadn't seen that. And if they're not inside, I Haven't seen them. Okay, can I just say something specifically to you? I think that one of your instincts to stop exposing yourself to this shit is really, really good. It's like, no offense to anyone who does, but I don't listen to true crime because I want to say, stay shocked and appalled by the idea of women being hurt and killed. I don't want to be desensitized to it. Okay. I was talking about this this morning. But so many of us have fought like hell to have lives where we are not constantly exposed to racist, rapey, fascist bullies. Like, we have worked hard for that. And we feel it viscerally because a lot of us had those kind of people leading our hallways and our. Our classrooms and the buses and our families and all of that. And so it is okay for you to decide that you are going to create and expose yourself to things that will allow you to be the beautiful, sensitive, soft person that you are. Because that is actually a way to avoid the slow march into numbness that allows fascism to take place. That is the work. Okay? And we can do a third way. Like, we don't have to do it their way. We can stay informed. We will create that. I stopped. I haven't been on social media for six months. I decided I'd stop. I do not hate myself enough to do it anymore. Okay? I haven't watched the news since the last debate and I was okay with that. And just recently I've been like, it's time. It's time to figure something else out. Yeah, right. And we're gonna do that. I have this dear friend who came to stay with me during the LA fires because she was sheltering at our house. And I've been waiting for when I have ideas. I've been waiting for the universe to also have the idea so I'm not always out there on my own. And she does the news. And she's been doing news in a way that is not like nervous system hijacking. She's gonna start doing the news on. We can do hard things feed. I said I will engage again. If we do it a different way.

[Brandi Carlile]

Will you guys want to listen to a calm.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

Conscious awake and awareness and so you can stay in touch with what is going on without having to be putting yourself in a position where your nervous system is gonna get jacked up every single hour of every single day. You'll listen, okay?

[Glennon Doyle]

We'll build it. We'll do it together. We'll do it together. I'm with you. And we'll do it together. Okay. But I think you have the right idea.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Carlile]

Glennon, you said something really clever post election result to me on a separate text thread where you said, less empire, more community. And I think that just as Glennon does, she just encapsulated how we should be moving forward.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

We can do it our way. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

All right, we got a couple more questions we got to get through. Yep, go ahead.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi, I'm Carrie. I have a question which kind of seems pointless after dancing next to Abby and Glennon last night to Muna, because I also. My identity is now Muna as well. And Abby, I think I know which one she might have been talking about. No, I'll tell you later. But this is more so for Glennon. We have the same sort of coming out story about living our lives in what I call default hetero, just on autopilot as far as sexuality. And you mentioned something like, inside, you don't feel any gender. You don't feel male or female. Same. So I was just wondering, what advice would you give somebody that currently might identify as queer because they don't fit in any sort of box with their identity, with gender, and also coming to their queerness later in life and how you reconcile your past with what it is now? Okay, this morning, before we were doing the gorgeous screening of Alex's film Alok, I was thinking about, or maybe feeling about gender. This morning I was asking myself, how do I feel about it today? I like to use fresh language about it all the time. And I thought, okay, this morning, if I had to describe my gender, I think I would say I am like, my aesthetic is Glinda, but my soul is Elphaba. Like, my gender is. I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. Right. My gender is Trojan Horse. Horse. Okay? I'm like Glinda, but I'm like a better Glinda. I'm like Glinda that gets on the broom. Okay? I'm Glinda. And if she didn't get on the broom, it's because she had a meeting with Elphaba earlier. And so they decided that she was going to stay in Oz, but she was going to stay in Oz. And her goal was to liberate Oz from the inside. So her allegiance was still with Elphaba, but she was just like. Like a spy. Okay. This shit happened to me this morning.

[Brandi Carlile]

Did anybody track that?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, they did. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Wow.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm not like white feminist Glinda. I'm just feminist Glinda. Right? Yeah. Okay, so there's that. And I also feel like this. And I feel like some femme presenting people feel this way. There's some femmes that can be like, male gaze y that I'm performing for the male gaze. And I know that that's there. But I also think that if I was on a desert island after I understood that I was gonna die because I can't even get a meal together if I'm in a kitchen full of food, I would then find myself a few days in, probably, like, using sticks to, like, get my nails right and, like, making rings and bracelets out of twigs. I think I would be doing that because a lot of that shit for me is not between me and men or me and the male gaze. It's like I need my nails to be a certain way so I can, like, talk to God this way so God recognizes me. It's like between me and God. My hair and nails are between me and God. Okay? I mean, the six pounds of foundation on my face is definitely between me and Instagram, but the nails and hair are real. Okay? So that's my gender. And also muna. And the Trojan horse thing is like, I don't know. It's not a performance. It's real. Like, I get invited into places because people think I'm safe and I'm not safe at all. Like, I'm not safe, you know? Yeah. So, like, I'm there to betray everything. Like, I'm at the table to fuck everything up all the time. So what I'm saying is just don't use male. Don't use the language that they've been given to us about gender. Just completely go off script and use what? Use Disney movies or whatever else. Just use whatever the hell language you feel like. I can't use male and female anymore. And I. It doesn't make sense to me. It's like the software has been upgraded and I can't understand that language anymore. And I also don't know any men. I don't know what they're doing. I'm not up. I don't know. But I think that. That I would like to be. I don't know how to be in a space with men and not feel myself in a violent situation. And I don't mean that I'm going to get violent. Although there is that. I mean, like, I actually have not gotten to a place where I feel bodily autonomy around men. What I mean by that is I feel like because I must present a certain way, that men expect me to laugh when they think I should laugh and smile, when they think I should smile, and when I don't laugh, when they think they're compelling me to laugh, I feel like they want to kill me. And I am serious. There's like a. Like, that's where bodily autonomy starts. Right? It's like laughter. That's why they're so scared of us laughing. It's like real laughter can't be compelled. Right. Tears is like dance music, orgasms. Like, all of these things are where bodily autonomy starts and ends. So I'm working on the guy thing. If anyone knows any nice ones that I could start with, that'd be great.

[Tish Melton]

They're all here right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

What?

[Brandi Carlile]

They're all here?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, they're all here. That's right.

[Brandi Carlile]

All right, I think we actually have to get to that last question. We're running out of time.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so I'm done with my gender. You got it? Is it clear? Okay.

[Tish Melton]

Hi, I'm Marissa.

[Brandi Carlile]

And before I ask my question, I.

[Tish Melton]

Just wanted to say that I've always.

[Glennon Doyle]

Fully believed and felt in my heart that we are not supposed to live in society.

[Tish Melton]

We're supposed to live in community.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I really appreciate this whole conversation.

[Brandi Carlile]

My question is about forgiveness.

[Glennon Doyle]

In relationships that have ended any kind of relationship, be it friendships, family members, or lovers, what is your process like to move on and forgive yourself when you can't forgive them? Hmm.

[Tish Melton]

This is another one. I called Glennon about this recently, didn't I?

[Kathryn Carlile]

You could write a dissertation on forgiveness at this point.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Tish Melton]

Well, I just think it's the most radical thing you can do is to forgive yourself and forgive someone else. But it's hard because sometimes you can be in a fight with someone and they don't know you're in a fight with them, even if they've done something so awful to you, they might not really see it. And then you sit here and it's a year later, and you're like, I don't want to forgive them because it's really negative energy in my life, and I don't need it. It makes me a worse person. Forgiving them means allowing them to come back in. And then forgiving yourself means that you would sort of move on from this person without telling. Telling them that you're in this world with them, where you're wounded or you're upset or you're angry, you're kind of fucking done, even. But, like, there has to be if they're alive and if there's a way for you to have A moment without any expectation of outcome to say what you're forgiving them for or what you think that they did to wrong you. If there's a way for you to do that and make yourself safe, I think you can really aid in the forgiveness process of yourself, and then I think you can helpfully move on. And also, I don't know about the specific situation, so I don't want to encourage anything particularly dangerous for you. But also, something may happen that would surprise you. So if you can find a way to have a confrontation and hold on to yourself first, sky's the limit. I think you can go all the way to forgiveness all by yourself. Once you've done that, and if you just can't, you can do it anyway. You can do it anyway.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's beautiful. And also, like, I think when we are judging a past version of ourselves, we call it I need to forgive myself. That's what we say to ourselves, because that's a language we have. But when you think about it, we're always just doing the best we can. So a new version of you is looking back at an old version of you and something you did and saying, oh, I wish I didn't do that. All that is is proof of growth.

[Tish Melton]

That's already.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's it. You're already better.

[Tish Melton]

That's done. Done and dusted.

[Glennon Doyle]

As Abby would say, done and dusted. Maybe I need to forgive myself actually means I am awesome now.

[Tish Melton]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? That's good.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna say that I am awesome now.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm amazing. I'm so much more amazing than I was before when I did that dumb thing. Look at me.

[Brandi Carlile]

Amazing.

[Glennon Doyle]

We gotta. We gotta go because we all have to get ready for our ladies of.

[Tish Melton]

Do we really have to go, though?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Listen, thank you all for coming today and also from the bottom of our hearts at we can do hard things. We really appreciate you tuning in and listening to us week in and week out. We love what we do, and we're going to keep doing it. Keep showing up, and we're going to keep showing up for you. We'll see you next time here, Pot Squad.

[Tish Melton]

Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Before we go, before we end this beautiful episode, here's something that I want to say to all of you who have been part of Together Rising for so long. Together Rising has sunset, and you all know that. And many of you have reached out to us and said, I trusted Together Rising for so long with my energy, with my funds to make the kind of difference in the world that I want to make. And now I don't know what to do with that energy with those funds. And we actually, as we sunset Together Rising, tried to connect you directly with many of the organizations who do the kind of work that Together Rising did for so long. I want to give you one more option. Katherine Carlisle and Brandi Carlisle run an incredible organization called the Looking out foundation, which I think aligns with Together Rising probably the most of any other organization I know in terms of intention, in terms of vision, in terms of who and how they see the world, tell the stories. And the change that they want to see is the same change that Together Rising wants to see. Also, the woman who was an executive director for Together Rising, Gloria, now runs the Looking Out Foundation. So the leadership of Together Rising, one important part of the leadership of Together Rising move directly over to the Looking Out Foundation. It's just that the synergy between the two are undeniable and I trust Gloria, Brandy and Katherine without hesitation. So what I'm saying to you is if you are looking for another place to plug in to become a donor, consider looking at the Looking Out Foundation. You can get more information about the Looking out foundation at Lookingout Foundation. Check it out. Consider it Abby and I trust it completely. Thanks. POD Squad if this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.

[Kathryn Carlile]

SA.