Liz Gilbert on Loving Without Losing Yourself

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Liz Gilbert on Loving Without Losing Yourself
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Elizabeth Gilbert
Date: September 11, 2025

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Overview

In this heartfelt and vulnerable episode, Elizabeth Gilbert joins Glennon Doyle to explore the complexities of loving someone deeply without sacrificing your own identity. Drawing from her relationship with Raya Elias, their shared journey through illness and codependency, and her recovery from love and sex addiction, Liz discusses how caring for someone else can edge dangerously close to losing self, and how the path back requires courage, honesty, and a reordering of one’s spiritual priorities. This conversation is a masterclass in boundaries, radical self-honesty, surrendering control, and discovering a higher source of love that never runs dry.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Trap of Codependency and Losing Self in Service

• Codependency Cycle: Liz reflects on how in love and sex addiction, she would "abdicate my power" and make someone else her entire universe, ignoring her own needs and divinity.

  • “I take the teeny, tiny, but incredibly sacred margin of power that I have over my life, and I hand it to you. And I'm like, now you’re in power over me. I’m giving you this.” — Liz Gilbert [03:20]

• The Martyr Complex: Liz describes how over-giving, even for noble reasons like caring for a dying partner, ultimately led to degradation of her own sacredness.

  • “I wrote a love song for Raya…I say, ‘I’m trying to give you a home. My body and my life are your own.’ …Honey, you can’t be somebody’s home. My body and life are my own that were given to me by God…not to be given to anyone under any circumstances for them to make into their home.” — Liz Gilbert [09:19]

• Difference Between Service and Servitude:

  • “That’s not service. Because that’s servitude.” — Liz Gilbert [09:56]
  • Glennon notes that giving to get something in return (validation, gratitude) ultimately leads to resentment: “That sort of giving always ends in anger, right?” — Glennon Doyle [10:35]
  • Liz: “Only. Always. Only 100%… martyring, mothering, managing always leads to rage.” [10:39]

2. Addiction, Power, and Learning to Put Self First

• Liz unpacks how love addiction flips a natural spiritual hierarchy: the beloved comes first, she comes second, and the divine comes last (if at all).

  • “Recovery looks like you turn that around…God is first...then you come second and then other people are last, which is shocking to even say.” — Liz Gilbert [06:31]

• The culture reinforces self-sacrifice, especially for women, making it difficult to recognize when it’s unhealthy.

3. Self-Reliance, Childhood Roots, and Resistance to Self-Care

• Liz shares how her family system overemphasized self-reliance, leaving her feeling alone—and prompting a lifelong quest to make others “her home.”
  • “My mother…probably her biggest fear would be to raise a child who is dependent upon anybody for anything…So my system reacted to that [self-reliance] as: I am alone and no one will ever help me. And who’s got me?” — Liz Gilbert [21:53]
• The resistance to self-care in recovery:
  • “When I came into the rooms...the solution...was, ‘you're going to need to learn how to take care of yourself’ and I was like, no thank you. I have been told that since the day I was born, and I want somebody to take care of me.” — Liz Gilbert [21:17]

4. The Power of Boundaries and Trusting Others

• Sponsors in recovery and therapists repeatedly challenge Liz’s deeply held belief that she’s responsible for everyone:

  • Therapist: “Are you aware that people can take responsibility for their own lives?”
    Liz: “No…I have no experience with seeing this.” [18:45]

• The practice of repeating: “I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life,” both for others and for herself.

  • “It gives them back...the most respectful thing you could do.” — Liz Gilbert [30:40], [44:11]

• Liz and Glennon laugh about how codependents would “run themselves to death” searching for someone to rescue if told a suffering person was in the room.

  • “How you kill a codependent: You put them in a round, empty, windowless room and you tell them there's someone sitting in the corner who's suffering, who needs their help. And then you watch them run themselves to death trying to find it.” — Liz Gilbert [13:30]

5. The Gift (and Cost) of Giving Up the “One Thing”

• Addiction is “giving up everything for one thing,” while recovery is “giving up one thing for everything.”
  • Glennon Doyle: “Addiction is giving up everything for one thing.” [24:19]
  • Liz Gilbert: “Yes…what I've gotten back is this vast landscape of so many other things. Like, my creativity has bloomed…My friendships have blossomed.” [24:29]

6. Freedom Through Spiritual Surrender

• Recovery requires turning to a higher power—the "thing that does not run dry"—to fill the existential emptiness.

  • “It’s the everything. It's what the yogis would call the Atman. It’s the dao. It’s the way. It's the thing that cannot be extinguished...I need to go to a source that does not run dry. And that is not me and that is not you. But it is in us and we are of it.” — Liz Gilbert [35:37]

• God/Higher Power is framed not dogmatically, but as anything beyond self, the natural intelligence and love that made the world.

• Liz describes the spiritual “switch” from living through self and others to trusting something bigger:

  • “There’s door A, which is everything I've ever done. And I know how that ends…And then there’s door B, which is this big giant question mark on it that just says God. You go through door B, you have no idea what you’re going to get. But aren’t you slightly curious?” — Liz Gilbert [41:55]

7. Letting Others (and Yourself) Stand on Their Own

• Liz movingly shares that when Raya passed away, she eventually stopped feeling her guiding presence:
  • “I must be standing on my own two feet because you’re leaving. Right. You know that I can do this now.” [43:23]
• The highest respect is to trust someone, including yourself, to govern their own life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I abdicate my power...That tiny little margin of power, control, and will that I have been given, it's essential that I use it well...”
  — Liz Gilbert [03:20]

• “After all I did for you, I spent like years after Raya died, like alternating between this tremendous grief at having lost her and this tremendous rage at what she took…without gratitude. Right. Where's my thanks? I almost died for you. Where's my thanks?”
  — Liz Gilbert [10:45]

• "You can’t be somebody’s home…My body and life are my own that were given to me by God..."
  — Liz Gilbert [09:21]

• "Addiction is giving up everything for one thing…And what you're doing here is you're giving up one thing for everything."
  — Glennon Doyle [24:19]

• “I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life.”
  — Liz Gilbert [30:40]

• “When you come to me [God], I want you to come to me without a thought in your mind that there might have been something else I could have tried…when you've had enough and you're still exhausted and hungry and empty and lonely, come to me and let me show you what I have for you…”
  — Liz Gilbert [40:40]

• “Is there any higher honor that you can give to somebody than to trust them completely with their own life?”
  — Liz Gilbert [44:12]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:20]–[07:19]: Liz breaks down how love addiction and codependency erode self, and how she handed her power over in her relationship with Raya.
• [10:39]: Discussion on how martyrdom and codependency end in anger and rage.
• [13:30]: The “codependent dog whistle” story: a codependent’s urge to rescue anyone who’s suffering.
• [18:45]: Therapy stories: confronting the belief that others must be saved.
• [21:53]: The root of Liz’s relationship to self-reliance and dependency from childhood.
• [24:19]: “Addiction is giving up everything for one thing; now giving up one thing for everything.”
• [30:40]: Practicing the mantra: “I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life.”
• [35:37]: What people in recovery are really finding: redefining God/higher power as a limitless source.
• [41:55]–[44:47]: Liz reflects on losing Raya's presence and learning to trust in her own power.
• [46:25]: Glennon’s story of naming her boat “Rhea,” symbolizing wild self-determination and honoring Raya.

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Tone & Language

The episode is soulful, honest, raw, full of practical wisdom and hard-earned truths. Glennon and Liz’s rapport allows for confessions, laughter, mutual admiration, and, most importantly, the modeling of spiritual and emotional self-respect. The language alternates between deeply personal storytelling and universally applicable guidance, with memorable metaphors and compassionate humor throughout.

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In Summary

This episode is an essential listen or read for anyone struggling with boundaries, codependency, or the temptation to rescue others at the expense of self. Liz Gilbert’s journey from losing herself in love to finding freedom in spiritual surrender is both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope—reminding us that true service must always begin with honoring our own sacredness, and that the most loving act is to trust others, and ourselves, to walk their own path.

Transcript

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[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. If you haven't yet listened to Tuesday's gorgeous Part one conversation with our beloved friend Liz Gilbert, trust me, go back and start there. Because today we're going to keep going deeper into Liz's relationship with Rhea, into the tender, messy, miraculous place where caring for someone else can push hard against the need to care for yourself. We talk about the quiet traps of codependency, the heartbreak of giving away all of your power, and the freedom that comes when you turn to a higher voice for guidance. Thank you Liz for this gift. For your honesty for your heart, your courage, and for sharing with us the story of you and Raya. Let's jump back in. Okay. Say God is speaking. How would God describe your part in creating. How does a love addict and a sex addict create the very trauma and drama that they are saying is ruining their life?

[Liz Gilbert]

I abdicate my power. So I want to talk about the word power. So one of the most beautiful things I ever heard anybody in recovery say was, I love this. She said, I am loved beyond measure by a high. By a God who has given me power over practically nothing. Let me say it again. I am loved beyond measure by a God who has given me power over practically nothing. But that tiny little margin of power, control, and will that I have been given, it's essential that I use it well and that I use it only in sacred and good ways. Not good in a moralistic way, but toward the creation of light, right? It's tiny, tiny, tiny little measure of control that I have, right? So what I do in my addiction is I take the teeny, tiny, but incredibly sacred margin of power that I have over my life, and I hand it to you. And I'm like, now you're in power over me. I'm giving you this. You have all the power over me now. So now my focus is entirely on you. When whatever you want, I will serve. Whatever you say I will do, right? So. And voluntarily. I mean, I remember the tremendous, strange, almost like this is probably what heroin feels like feeling that I had when I left my marriage and I came to be with Raya and she was dying, and I was like, my purpose in life is so clear now. My only job is to serve her every need, right? And this relief of, like, I don't have to think, I don't have to feel, I don't have to make decisions. This incredibly powerful person is dying, and I am her servant. And. And no one would begrudge me for giving her everything and doing everything for her because she has such a very, very, very short time to live, right? And God was like, perfect story. We're not going to make it such a short time, because I want you to see what happens when you do that, even for a short time. Because I was like, well, I can give all my power to somebody who's only got six months to live. And God's like, yeah, I'm going to let her live a little while longer so that you can see the same thing will happen. As always happens. You will have a complete and utter degradation of your sacredness, right? So What I can't do is anything like that, you know, I can't do anything like that. So a way I've seen it described as a sort of chart is that love addiction and codependency is this reversal of the natural and healthy and sacred order of things. So what it looks like is that I, let's say I'm love addicted to you. I make you the most important thing in the entire universe. I come second and divinity and sacredness are last. They don't even exist anymore. It's just me and you. There is no rest of the world, which is what I always wanted in my life. It's like, let's just go into a bedroom, shut the door, turn off all the phones and there is no world. There is no world, there is no universe. There is nothing but you. And I'm going to dive into and eat, pray, love. I even described it as diving into someone the way like a circus high diver in a cartoon dives off a high dive into a small glass of water. I'm just going to pour disc and dive into you completely so that I do not have to be and I do not have to feel and I do not have to suffer, right? So recovery looks like you turn that around where it's like divinity is first, like God is first. Honoring the sacred is first. Turning your will and your life over to the care of a higher power. Finding that, listening to that, getting guidance from that, anchoring yourself in that your day begins there. Every minute of uncertainty, you're like, you look, you look above and within, like, what is the right action here? How can I be of service? What do you want me to do? And then, and then you come second and then other people are last, which is shocking to even say.

[Glennon Doyle]

Shocking. Feels like we're gonna get in trouble, right?

[Liz Gilbert]

And what makes a narcissistic sort of codependent relationship so perfect to the, to the evil complement of each other is that a drug addict and an alcoholic's ego is always me first. You know, it's me, me, me, me, me. And that's why when drug addicts and alcoholics come into recovery, they're told instantly to start serving. It's like put coffee out, hand out pamphlets, put chairs together. Because you are so selfish, like, you are so self centered, you need to get out of yourself and you need to serve. But the codependent who serves the addict, their recovery is stop serving and take care of yourself. We don't know how to take care of ourselves. Like that's why we're just constantly looking for a narcissistic kind of charismatic, sparkly person to pour ourselves into completely. And so when I work with people in my program, it's like, what? We're going to make a list of things that you can do today that are beneficial for you. And they're like, oh, I can't do. They're like, I don't have time.

[Glennon Doyle]

But all these people I have to check on today, all these people I.

[Liz Gilbert]

Gotta take care of. I don't have time. It's like you don't have time to go for a 10 minute walk in the sun by yourself. It's like this restoration of your own dignity, this restoration of your own sovereignty. Right. And then from that place you begin to heal. And then you begin to see things that you used to do and be like, I wrote a love song for Raya. We have a video of it called Banished Immortal. We played it at her memorial. That I was like, this is the most beautiful love song that was ever written in the whole entire universe. And it's interesting because in the video when she's singing it, she's so high. But anyway, like. And I'm like, she's so beautiful. And I wrote this love song for her. And. And in the song I say, I'm just trying to give you. It just hurts my soul to even say these words. I'm trying to give you a home. My body and life are your own.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God.

[Liz Gilbert]

Yeah. And I'm looking at that now and I'm like, oh, honey, you can't be somebody's home. And my body and life are my own that were given to me by God to have this experience here on earth and not to be given to anyone under any circumstances for them to make into their home. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because it's not. It's okay if you're listening and you're thinking, but service is good.

[Liz Gilbert]

That's not service. It's not service. Because that's servitude. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's also okay if you're serving someone the way that you're describing it. Just think of it as what's the intention? It's not actually for the other person. It's because you're getting something out of it. Right. There's a different energy going into this sort of service.

[Liz Gilbert]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So if you're a person who gives so that that person then thanks you, so that that person then gives you the high that you need to make.

[Liz Gilbert]

You feel, gives you your esteem that you cannot generate, and then that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because that sort of Giving always ends in anger, right?

[Liz Gilbert]

Only. Always. Only 100% talked about that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. That is. That's where the martyrdom comes in. Right?

[Liz Gilbert]

That's where the martyring, mothering, managing always leads to rage. Always. You know, I wrote in there that the anthem of the exhausted codependent is after all I did for you, I spent like years after Raya died, like alternating between this tremendous grief at having lost her and this tremendous rage at what she took. You know, like what she took without gratitude. Right. Where's my thanks? I almost died for you. Where's my thanks? You know, it's like.

[Glennon Doyle]

How would a recovered Liz, Liz now have handled Rhea? Like, how would that love story had gone had you known what you know now about you being your home and her being her home?

[Liz Gilbert]

Well, it would start with this. The way that we moved over the edge from the very first, after 10 years of knowing each other, from we are friends to I will save you. Because the codependency two step is I will save you and then you will save me. That's the deal. That's the contract.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the ideal is just cutting out the middleman. Like, instead of I will save you and you will save me. The ideal is how will I save me?

[Liz Gilbert]

And how about I trust that you have the capacity to save you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Liz Gilbert]

Which I have a lot of trouble believing same. Because I don't think anybody can save themselves unless I save them. So what that would look like is here's where the. When I do this sort of postmortem. Literal, literal postmortem. Kind of like a lot of this book is sort of a detective story. It's an emotional detective story where I'm like, how did this happen? Where did it start? Right. And of course, it's so much easier to see it when you can slow it down and look at it in the past than when it's happening when you're doing it below the level of consciousness. But I got an email one day from a mutual friend of Raya's back when we were just social acquaintances that said it was a group email that said, raya Elias is having a really tough time right now. She just had knee surgery. Her body isn't healing, she's in a lot of pain, she's really depressed. She needs her friends. I'm just sending like, this person was like, I'm just sending this message out. So for a codependent like me, that's a dog whistle.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. I'm like, I am ready.

[Liz Gilbert]

Hark. You know, there's a Line I quote, my uncle told me this. My uncle's in recovery and he told me this line and I love it. And I quote it in the book that says how you kill a codependent. You put them in a round, empty, windowless room and you tell them there's someone sitting in the corner who's suffering, who needs their help. And then you watch them run themselves to death trying to find it. It's like, where's that person? Where's that person who's suffering who needs my help? So I got that message and I get. I get high off of my belief that I can provide that safety for you. So at the time, I had this old church that I had bought and renovated that my ex husband and I weren't living in anymore, that I wanted to turn into an artist residency. Noble, beautiful idea. I still want to do this. It's something that I still love the idea of. But what I did was I was like, you can come and stay here. But it was boundaryless. It was like, you can come and stay here forever. You can come and stay in my house for free. You can come and stay here forever. And I remember, and I write about it in the book, her coming out there that day. We didn't know each other that well, you know, and she was standing in the middle of this beautiful old church weeping, and she was like, why are you giving this to me?

[Glennon Doyle]

She said that, why would you give this?

[Liz Gilbert]

You don't even know me, you know, like, why are you giving this to me? And like, oh, my God, I was so high on that. I'm like, watching her cry. I'm watching her gratitude. I'm watching her be overwhelmed with, like, the world can be a place of kindness and not just a place of suffering. It's like, oh, this is so good. And I get to be the one who says, I am giving this to you because I'm such a good person. I mean, I didn't say that, but I was like, I'm giving this to you because you deserve it and because you used to have this. Now, she was deserving of safety and love and home. But if I were to get a message like that today in the mail from somebody saying, this person is suffering and they need. They need us. They're having a tough time and they need us, I'm not sure I would give them a home.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? You literally gave her a home, like what you just talked about.

[Liz Gilbert]

I'm just trying to give you a home. My body and life are your own. And I would love to say this is the only time I've ever done this Foreign.

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[Liz Gilbert]

So I have since, in the last years, since coming into recovery, been in situations where people who I loved and cared about were struggling, and I'm like, I must save them. And it's like. It's like trying to hold back a dog sled, you know, it's like trying to hold that urge in me is so enormous. And I remember, like, one of my sponsors, early sponsors, being like, I'm not going to be able to work with you if you bail this person out. You know, I'm like, I. And I'm. And you know, I can come up with all sorts of reasons why it's my job to save this person. I'm like, the world's not fair. They didn't have the advantages that I have. Like, they need a home. Their kids should be going to a better school. They should be. You know, it's like, I've got it, I've got it. And. And she was like, do you believe that they have their own higher power? And I'm like, no, obviously not. I am their higher power. Do you believe that they have the resources to find their own solution in life? A therapist one day, Sit up. She was like, liz, sit up. Look at me. I need to ask you a question. And she's just laughing. She's like, I really need to know. Just tell me the truth. Are you aware that people can take responsibility for their own lives? And I was like, no, I have no experience with seeing this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Are you therapist? Why do you have such a good business?

[Liz Gilbert]

This is what I said. And I was like. And I just said, on what basis are you saying this?

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, what.

[Liz Gilbert]

What evidence do you have to support this? I see no evidence of this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right, right, right.

[Liz Gilbert]

And she said, I have years of evidence to see this. I have years of evidence of watching people decide to take full accountability for their own journey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Liz Gilbert]

And to take complete responsibility for their own lives. And I was like. She said, there's a difference between can and will. But she said, everybody can decide to take full responsibility for their own lives. It doesn't mean they will, but they can. And I was like, surely not everybody? And she's like, everybody.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think that you are resisting that so much? Because that would mean that you had to do that.

[Liz Gilbert]

Bingo.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because it's. You're like. But if the reason. Because this is at the core of it. Right. The reason I am trying to control meet everyone else's needs is because I have no freaking idea how to meet my own needs or live my own life. Right.

[Liz Gilbert]

You nailed it. You got it in one. So when I first came into my rooms of recovery in the relationship rooms, and the solution that was given to me was, you're going to need to learn how to take care of yourself. I was like, no, thank you. I have been told that since the day I was born, and I want somebody to take care of me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so tell me why you may.

[Liz Gilbert]

Have been a human being who was particularly reactive.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly.

[Liz Gilbert]

To that. To somebody saying, take care of yourself.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Liz Gilbert]

So the family system in which I was raised prized self reliance above all other virtues. And my mother, I think she would agree with this. Probably her biggest fear would be to raise a child who is dependent upon anybody for anything, because her experience of the world is that no one will ever help you. And so it was like, you will learn how to take care of yourself. How my system reacted to that is, I am alone and no one will ever help me. And who's got me? I'm too young to know how to do these things. I don't know how to do these things. I'm scared. There's no net. There's no net here. And so I write in the book. And so I set out upon my lifelong journey to make other people into my home. Will you be my safe home? Right. So I sort of was already exhausted from trying to figure out how to take care of myself and not knowing how. So. And then I'm doubly exhausted from taking care of everyone so that they'll take care of me. So I really resisted that. When I came into the rooms, I'm like, no, no, no. And I had this amazing spiritual moment where I said to the God of my understanding, if I'm very good and I promise to be a straight A student and to do the steps in my program exactly the way I'm told and to come to the meetings every day and to just be the best at this, will you give me one more great love story? And God said, I promise you no such thing. Will you still come with me? Do you have the courage to come with me with no promise of cash and prizes at the end of this journey? Will you just see where this journey takes you? Will you just come with me and put that down? Will you put that down? That is My oldest fantasy and my oldest drug, and God was like, put it all the way down. Like, don't put it down, but still keep it kind of behind your back in the little secret. My little secret thing, like, put it down. What I heard was, put it on the divine fire and don't reach back in and take it out. Like, that's what I think every addict has to do in order to get well, is like, I'm offering this as a sacred offering. I'm giving the universe this thing that I do. I'm putting it on the divine fire, so I'm not gonna take it out.

[Glennon Doyle]

In the book, you say addiction is giving up everything for one thing.

[Liz Gilbert]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And what you're doing here is you're giving up one thing for everything.

[Liz Gilbert]

But it's my thing. You know what I mean?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. A lot of us would keep our one thing as opposed to everything.

[Liz Gilbert]

Another beautiful thing I once heard someone share in the rooms about love addiction and sex addiction was that she said, like, I got so good at this thing, you know, it was like I poured everything in my life into becoming attractive, sexual, charismatic, compelling, Being able to pull and draw people in, being able to. Especially men. Being able to manipulate men with sexuality, becoming the best lover, the most exciting. Like, this was my thing, you know, and she said, and. And. And I was expert at it. And it became like this giant redwood that. That I grew, that I was. This. This was my thing. And when she's like, when I took it down, there was this devastation of losing the giant redwood, but this whole giant forest landscape grew up of all sorts of other things. Lakes and rivers and bushes and flowers and birds and, like, you know, meadows. And it's like, oh, there's so many other things besides this one thing, you know, so God's like, give me the thing and don't ask for it back. And I did. And what I've gotten back is this vast landscape of so many other things. Like, my creativity has bloomed. I never thought I would have a shame free day. Glennon. I don't have shame free days at the moment. I mean, I don't have shame days at the moment. My friendships have blossomed. I was like, oh, holy moly. I have these extraordinary women in my life who have been friends of mine for decades who have just gotten, like, 2% of my attention, because all of my attention was going into my relation, whatever my central relationship was. And I'm like, margaret, you were there the whole time. Jenny, you were there the whole time. Cree, like, all these people I'm like, you people are incredible. Like, I didn't even notice. Like, I loved you, but like, I was so obsessed. Obsessed, you know? Like I was so obsessed in these dramas, they couldn't even see you. Like, I used to have a raft of professionals taking care of my mental, physical and spiritual health. A lot of people getting paychecks for me. Like therapists, doctors, hormone doctors, shamans, plant medicine people. Like all of it. It's like it took a village to keep me alive. Right. I don't need their services today. You know, Like, I don't need sleeping pills, I don't need antidepressants, I don't need anti anxiety medication. I gave up my thing that was answering all of that. And God was like, you're gonna, you're, you're fine without that thing. Like, you are fine without that thing. And your service now is not rescuing people. Your service is telling people how you rescued yourself. Cool. Like, that's your service. And like, it's so important for me when I'm a sponsor to be like, to be really clear with my sponsees, like, we're not gonna replace your love addiction with Liz addiction. Like, you're not. I'm not your higher power. Like, I am not gonna be your answer. You're gonna come to me for answers and I'm gonna tell you to ask God. And you're gonna find it, and you're going to find it within you and then you're going to have the answer I'm just going to keep. And I'm going to tell you my own stories about what I did, but I'm not going to tell you what to do. Like it's a bottom line behavior for me to give advice.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like that moment in that you talk about with Raya where she actually confronted somebody. You had somebody over for dinner. The person was clearly suffering and drinking a lot, but you weren't going to mention that. And Raya said, hey, what's going on? Basically, I'm paraphrasing what's going on with all the drinking. You're clearly suffering. She broke down, shared what was going on. And then the part that made me gasp was when she said, she turned to Raya, who had just opened up this portal for her of truth that no one else had. And she said, will you, can I call you tomorrow? Will you help me with this? And Rhea said, no, but there are rooms you can go to that will help you with that.

[Liz Gilbert]

I'll point you to those rooms.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow. I don't know that is?

[Liz Gilbert]

No, because I can't.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can't. But like, Liz, do you think that sometimes when I, when someone's suffering or I perceive that they are suffering, I, I think I'm doing better now. But my idea of what a friend was, was doing stuff like, you have a problem, I'll pay. Your thing I'll do. Is that from a lack of self worth too? Because do some people show up and believe that their presence is what is needed?

[Liz Gilbert]

Such a good question.

[Glennon Doyle]

Not a bunch of shit.

[Liz Gilbert]

It's such a good question, Glennon, because it's like, the funny thing about addicts is that we have this totally gutted esteem. We have no sense of our value, our true value, our true grace, our true sacredness. And we think we're the most important people in the entire world who are so capable of fixing others, right? So it's like I have no sense of my own self worth, and yet I think that I can save you. One of the things that I receive a lot in this practice that I do, called two way prayer, is what I call God will say to me, you don't even know what you're looking at. You think you've got answers for other people. Trust me when I tell you, you don't even know what you're looking at when you're looking at this situation. Your perception is so warped. And one of the things that one of my sponsors taught me that I love, that she, she does, and that she, she said I have a mantra because she's a codependent in recovery, but she's like, when I'm working with a sponsor, when I'm with a friend who's troubled, or when I'm seeing somebody who's suffering as I'm listening to them, I'm repeating this mantra in my mind. I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life. I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life. I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life. It's a mantra that she has to keep saying, saying. And not only does that keep her from leaping in to disempower someone by.

[Glennon Doyle]

Saving them, it does do that.

[Liz Gilbert]

It gives them back what that mantra does. I have complete faith in your capacity. I have complete faith in your ability. I have complete faith. One of the things I'll say to my friends is like, I believe in your resourcefulness. You've lived this long. So if I got an email today saying somebody's struggling and they're in trouble and they need their friends, I'VE trained myself to be like. I would read that email now and I say I have complete faith. Of all people, I would have complete faith in Raya Elias's resourcefulness to be able to find solutions for her own life. Right. Which might include asking for help or guidance. But that's a very different reaction than I'm gonna jump into this burning car and pull you out of it. Yes, so now we're both on fire.

[Glennon Doyle]

So now we're both on fire. That would just help.

[Liz Gilbert]

And there's nobody left to serve.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, here's what I Want you to explain to us in your Lizzy words. We all have these secret stories that are running underneath everything. And everybody has a story that is some version of, I am not okay. I'm going to find the hero of this story that will make me okay. And everybody has a different one. Okay? So Raya's was drugs. Drugs are what will make me okay. Yours is love and sex. Another person. Some people is work. Some people. Everybody has a thing. Some of those things are celebrated by culture. A woman who gives away everything, like the freaking Giving Tree is celebrated. So that's a workaholism. That's something that celebrates. Harder to figure out when those are hurting you because the culture is saying more, more, more of that. This is what I want you to try to explain to people who have never been in the rooms. There is something that happens, that happened with Rhea. She gave up her hero of drugs for the rooms, for a higher power for a while. And she was sane. You have given up the hero that is another person. For what? What are all these people finding that they're replacing their shitty hero with that is giving them sanity? What the hell is it?

[Liz Gilbert]

Everything. It's the everything. It's what the yogis would call the Atman. It's the dao. It's the way. It's the universal, eternal. It's the thing that cannot be extinguished. It's the thing that cannot be, that will never run out, right? You run out of drugs, you run out of energy to work. You run out. Like I exhaust people. Glennon. Everyone I've ever been with in a romantic relationship is like, I am exhausted from trying to get you to believe that you are lovable. It's exhausting for people, right? I need to go to a source that does not run dry. And that is not me and that is not you. But it is in us and we are of it. Right? So the way I describe the whole, the empty, vast, what we call in the rooms, the God sized hole. Like I've got this vacancy in me that I keep trying to fill with other things, people, places and things. Works for sort of a minute. It's like a little snack, you know? But it's ravenous. Yes, the hole is ravenous. No one can fill it. But then there's this. There's something in the universe that doesn't end, that is never tired of me, that I can't bore to death, that doesn't get exasperated with me, that delights in communion with me. One of the things that I say to, you know, I use the word God, but I always use it very carefully, especially when I'm aware that so many people have such deep trauma around that world word, especially if they grew up in a. In a high demand religion or they were abused by that word, or they were abused within that word. I use it because, actually, I love that word. But I always work with my sponsors to be like, what do you want to call it? Like, what do you want to call all that you cannot see but know is there? Like, what do you want to call the thing that. In the. In the beautiful book of Job, that beautiful speech that God gives to Job, that is essentially God saying to Job, you don't even know what you're looking at here. And like, and just says to Job, like, do you feed the wild raven? You know, it's one of my favorite lines that brings me back to humility. Whenever I'm, like, thinking I know what the world is about, what's going on, what's happening here, what everybody needs. It's like, do you feed the wild raven, Liz? What feeds the wild raven? What created the wild raven? What created the food that feeds the wild raven? I don't. Didn't. You know? I didn't. So whatever your word is for what feeds the wild raven, the question that I have is, can you begin to. Can you consider the possibility that there might be a higher intelligence in the universe than yours, even by just looking at, like, an acorn and being like, how does this turn into. I. Right. I remember when Martha Beck and Rowan were having their baby through IVF and they had one egg. That's all they got, was one egg that got, you know, inseminated. And it was like this microscopic, like, tiny little thing in a petri dish. And Martha was like, inside of that are her food allergies, her preferences, her artistic talents. Like, how, you know, it's like, this thing is incredible what's going on here? So the question that I always have for them is like, can you imagine there might be an intelligence higher in the universe than yours? Or do you think that your intelligence is the highest intelligence in the universe? Right. Which doesn't even make sense. Like, I hope to God there's a higher intelligence in the universe than mine. Because all I have to do is look at how poorly I've made choices in my life and how bad I am at anticipating what's going to be good for me or what's going to be happy for me to know that I am not the highest intelligence in the universe. Right. So can you imagine there might be a higher intelligence. You don't have to know what it's called or where it's from or what it is. If the answer to that is yes. The second question is, can you imagine that it might care about you having gone through the trouble to create you, can you imagine that it might be invested slightly in your well being and your care, that it might see you a as precious? If the answer to that is it's just a maybe, it only has to be a maybe. Could it be? And then the third question is, given that it's a higher intelligence than yours, given that it cares about you, can you imagine that it might want to communicate with you and that it might welcome that if you come to it and ask, can we communicate that it will? And if the answer to those questions are yes, then why wouldn't you give up everything for that that you thought was going to make you happy? Which I've got decades of experience to prove does not, you know, and the God, what I call God, that thing that feeds the wild raven, what I believe is that it loves freedom. It loves freedom for people, it loves free people. And so it let me try everything else. It's like, oh, sweetheart, just go, go try it, you know, try it. Try this person, try that person. Try men, try women, try, you know, try plant medicine, try antibiotics, you know, antibiotics and antidepressants. Try success, try fame, try exercise, try it. Just, I just feel like I said go, go. Yeah, try it. Because when you come to me, I want you to come to me without a thought, thought in your mind. That's like there might have been something else I could have tried. Yeah, like make sure, go try it. Go see and, and, and have all those experiences and when you've had enough and you're still exhausted and hungry and empty and lonely, come to me and let me show you what I have for you. But come to me willingly, willingly. Yeah, you know, come to me willingly because you want. One of the other ways I see it is there's door A, which is everything I've ever done. And I know how that ends. Mixed bag. And then I don't know, it's pretty consistent. And then there's door B, which is this big giant question mark on it that just says God. And God's like, now you go through door A. The nice thing is you know what you're going to get. You go through door B, you have no idea what you're going to get. But aren't you slightly curious, you know, and that's what my journey is now, which is just constantly, every day, remembering to go through door B and get my bounty that's waiting for me there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, my last question is this. Since we don't know what the hell we're looking at ever, is there any part of you that feels like where you are now? Are you and Raya both free now?

[Liz Gilbert]

You know, I think so, because she said to me. I was about to say, I can't know, and then I'm like, no, I do know.

[Glennon Doyle]

She.

[Liz Gilbert]

She used to say to me, I will not. She used to promise me, I will not leave until I know that you can stand on your own two feet in every single circumstance of your life. And then she died before I could do that. So that was confusing. I was like, you promised you weren't gonna leave.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't. I don't know how to do anything. I'm only this many years old. I don't know how to do anything.

[Liz Gilbert]

I don't know how to do anything. But I felt her presence so vividly after her death. I mean, she was as present as you are right now to me, and she was talking to me and guiding me and making me laugh, and, like, she was so vivid and so present. And over the years, I've felt that presence depart, which is sort of heartbreaking and confusing because I'm like, where are you going? But now I hardly ever feel her every once in a while, you know, Hardly ever feel her. Used to feel her everywhere. And I'm like, oh, I must be standing on my own two feet because you're leaving. Right. Like, you know that I can do this now. And interestingly, like, that's what parents are supposed to do.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Liz Gilbert]

Right. Very tricky for them. Very tricky for us. Yeah. But I. I mean, maybe it's not what they're supposed to do. I don't know. But, you know, that's. It's like, I'm gonna take you as far as I can take you, and then I'm gonna trust completely in your own capacity to find your own way in your own journey. And is there any higher honor that you can give to somebody than to trust them completely with their own life? Like, isn't that, in fact, the most respectful thing that you could do? Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And starting with yourself would be a good one. I'm gonna consider what you said, Liz. I'm gonna think it over. I love you.

[Liz Gilbert]

I love you so much. Glennon.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can't believe the truth and beauty you put into this book for Real. Like as your friend, I just. I know that you didn't do it to help people, but it's gonna. It's gonna.

[Liz Gilbert]

Thank you. I love you.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you.

[Liz Gilbert]

I'm glad that we decided to be here at the same time in Earth school.

[Glennon Doyle]

One, two minute. One minute thing. Do you know, I don't know if you remember this, but when Abby and I moved to Naples, Florida, we lived on this little creek and we got this little boat and we used to go out on the Gulf of Mexico. The Gulf of Mexico. And we had the most. It was like when we had first got. We first were married and we used to go out on this boat and we would get this feeling of just freedom and giddiness. No one was the boss of us. We were just out. Nobody could tell us what to do. We were captaining our own boats. We were sitting on each other's laps on the. The wind through our hair. And one day we were like, what are we going to name this boat? And we were thinking of that feeling and we named the boat Rhea because it was just this wild self determination. And I don't know, I just. I feel very honored to have been any part of witnessing that whole thing.

[Liz Gilbert]

You were a big part of it. You were a big part of it and you still are. I love you more than the force of 10,000 burning suns. And I have complete faith in your capacity to govern your own journey. Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

You too, Pod Squad.

[Liz Gilbert]

We have faith in you 100%.

[Glennon Doyle]

We'll see you next time. Love you. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at. We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.