Manifestation: Is it Real or BS?

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Manifestation: Is it Real or BS?
Release Date: March 4, 2025
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Platform: Audacy

---

1. Introduction to Manifestation

In this thought-provoking episode, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle delve deep into the concept of manifestation, exploring its validity, implications, and impact on both personal and collective levels. The conversation navigates through personal anecdotes, scientific perspectives, and societal critiques, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of manifestation's multifaceted nature.

---

2. Defining Manifestation and Its Origins

The discussion begins with defining manifestation, distinguishing it from the broader Law of Attraction philosophy.

Glennon Doyle explains:

"Manifestation is defining an intention. So you have your intention. You define your intention in such a way that it gets embedded in your subconscious and in a way that makes it more likely that that thing will happen."
[12:56]

Amanda Doyle adds:

"If you think good thoughts, good things happen. If you think bad thoughts, bad things happen. If you speak things into the universe, you can make your requests known and it will come back to you."
[11:15]

Abby Wambach recounts her early fascination with the concept, particularly influenced by the book The Secret:

"I went down and I bought the videos. I bought all of that... it gave me access to the spiritual world that I knew."
[10:10]

---

3. Personal Experiences and Beliefs in Manifestation

The hosts share their personal journeys with manifestation, highlighting both their beliefs and skepticism.

Abby Wambach shares her conflicted stance:

"I 100% believe that manifestation works when it works. And I also 100% believe that there is a reality that it's full of shit. It's the same, same."
[25:39]

Glennon Doyle acknowledges her own paradox:

"I have the same paradox and I have a bias towards believing science is credible... I'm betting on the neuroscience professor."
[27:07]

Amanda Doyle expresses discomfort with the individualistic aspect:

"Manifestation feels a little bit like that. If you are disenchanted with religion, manifestation kind of says you don't need any of it. It's just you and your thoughts."
[14:56]

---

4. Intersection with Science and Neuroscience

The conversation transitions to the scientific understanding of manifestation, referencing neuroscience insights.

Glennon Doyle elaborates on the brain's role:

"When something gets embedded in your subconscious, it activates different networks of the brain... you are living your life in such a way to make that thing more likely to happen because you're paying attention to it."
[36:52]

She further explains the neurological basis:

"Defining an intention... it's a way to train your brain to move these things into the subconscious."
[38:37]

---

5. Individualism vs. Collective Manifestation

A significant portion of the discussion critiques the individualistic nature of mainstream manifestation practices and explores the potential for collective efforts.

Amanda Doyle questions the focus on individualism:

"Manifestation is the mysticism of capitalism... it's always aimed towards an individual perfectionist."
[16:10]

Glennon Doyle draws parallels with historical uses:

"In Trump's inauguration speech, he used and called back this 19th century phrase of manifest Destiny... asking us to manifest together this idea of domination."
[55:57]

They contemplate the possibility of manifesting collective liberation:

"Can we manifest together an idea of liberation?"
[55:58]

---

6. Criticisms and Mental Health Implications

The hosts address the potential dangers of manifestation, especially concerning mental health.

Amanda Doyle highlights the risks for those with OCD:

"It's a great news for someone who has mental health issues... because their whole survival depends on knowing that there's a big difference between their thoughts and the acting on the thoughts and making it a reality."
[13:35]

Glennon Doyle concurs:

"This whole flood of manifestation everywhere... is dangerous to people who have intrusive thoughts."
[13:01]

---

7. Prosperity Gospel and Societal Impacts

The episode critically examines how manifestation intertwines with the prosperity gospel and broader societal issues.

Amanda Doyle connects manifestation to capitalism:

"Manifestation is the mysticism of capitalism."
[16:10]

Glennon Doyle explains the co-opting of manifestation ideas:

"The idea of the individuals are both responsible for their outcomes that are positive and the individuals are responsible for their outcomes that are negative, thereby completely bypassing and ignoring every systemic oppressive force that exists."
[16:34]

They discuss how prosperity gospel distorts manifestation:

"Prosperity gospel enters any realm at all, it's when..."
[43:20]

---

8. Collective Liberation and Positive Manifestation

Exploring a more altruistic approach, the hosts envision manifestation used for collective good rather than individual gain.

Amanda Doyle advocates for collective dreaming:

"Can we manifest together a new way of building that means that everybody, regardless of how much money they have... or can survive another fire?"
[52:31]

Glennon Doyle emphasizes the potential for positive collective intentions:

"Can we dream up a new way of building that means collective liberation?"
[54:38]

---

9. The Power of Storytelling and Evolution

The conversation shifts to the role of storytelling in human evolution and its connection to manifestation.

Abby Wambach references Yuval Noah Harari's Sapiens:

"We are a storytelling driven species... the stories that then get embedded into us."
[48:46]

Amanda Doyle connects this to personal narratives:

"Be careful the stories you tell yourself, especially about yourself, because that is the track that is running and that is what you are looking to be confirmed in the world."
[52:31]

---

10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the balance between personal intentions and societal structures, advocating for a mindful and collective approach to manifestation.

Glennon Doyle contemplates the scientific and spiritual aspects:

"Is manifestation working because manifestation works? Or does it work because it requires you to put your body in a state of relaxation and focus?"
[45:06]

Amanda Doyle urges collective action:

"Can we resist the capitalistic project of individual protection and collectively dream?"
[52:31]

Abby Wambach concludes with optimism for shared liberation:

"This episode is brought to you by Ring Cameras and Doorbells... Welcome 2. We can do hard things."
[56:05]

---

Notable Quotes

• Amanda Doyle on Individualism:

  "Manifestation feels a little bit like that... it's just us. It's just me writing." [14:19]

• Glennon Doyle on Neuroscience:

  "Manifestation is defining an intention... it's a way to train your brain to move these things into the subconscious." [36:52]

• Abby Wambach on Personal Conflict:

  "I 100% believe that manifestation works when it works. And I also 100% believe that there is a reality that it's full of shit." [25:39]

---

Conclusion

This episode effectively balances skepticism and belief, inviting listeners to critically evaluate the concept of manifestation. By intertwining personal narratives with scientific insights and societal critiques, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda encourage a nuanced understanding of how our thoughts shape our realities and the importance of collective intentionality in fostering a more equitable world.

---

Note: This summary intentionally excludes advertisements and non-content sections to focus solely on the meaningful discussions and insights shared by the hosts.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

You can save every day by shopping at Whole Foods Market. Seriously, don't just go for their big sales. Walk the store and see the savings for yourself. In the seafood department, look for the yellow low price sign on Whole Foods Market responsibly farm salmon. This fish is perfect for the grill. Buttery, fatty, yet lean. Nice thick filets. I'm getting hungry just thinking about it, and I know I can get it at a great price. There are so many ways to save at Whole Foods Market now.

[Abby Wambach]

You know, if you've listened to we can do hard things for a while. You know how important acceptance is when it comes to personal growth. And you know who else is big on acceptance? Discover. You see, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. That's a whole lot of places and a whole lot of acceptance, which is great for Discover, but even better for you. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn [e-mail] credit card okay, so something.

[Amanda Doyle]

Cool has been happening in my life that I have been doing, which Abby knows because she's been watching. I have, for the first time in five years, been setting my little alarm at night to get up very early and write. I have been writing again, and it has been a treat for me. Okay, me too. And then here's what I've been doing with my writing each day. I've been doing the same thing that I did during my early blogging days, where I avoided perfectionism by saying, I'm just going to write for an hour and a half or an hour, and then I'm gonna send, press send. And that kept me from perfectionism, which is why all the rest of my career unfolded. Okay, what I've been doing with these little writings is I've been sending them in a newsletter to all the love bugs who are registered for my newsletter. Okay? I don't know what the hell's gonna happen. All I know is it's great fun so far. It reminds me of my early writing days. It's just us. It's just me writing. I avoided newsletters for so long because I don't like newsletters. I always feel like when I get one, that feels overwhelming. It feels like it's mostly just like a report of everything the person has been accomplishing in the world, which feels like, why is this for me? This feels like it's for you. Like, I should. I write back and say congratulations. Like, I don't know. Anyway, I just decided I wanted. If I was going to do a newsletter, I wanted it to be different. I want it just to be a little treat. Like, a little treat for me to write a little treat for whoever's opening it to, like, give them a little joy for the day. So it's called a little treat. I'm loving it. I just sent my first one out last week. I think people are really liking it. And obviously, if you want to register for the newsletter, you have to give me your email address. Obviously, I will never do anything shady with your email addresses. Okay. I wouldn't know how, but even if I could, I would never. I will protect your email addresses with my life. If you want my little treat newsletter, which will not be a list of my accomplishments, it will just be a helpful little story, go to glennandoyle.com, you'll. You'll see a signup box in the top middle of the page where you can submit your email address, and that's it. Okay. And then if you're on Instagram, you can go to my page, click the link in bio, and you'll see sign up for newsletter as the second button. Click that button and submit your email.

[Abby Wambach]

Address, and then you'll get the little treat in your inbox.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, exactly. A little treat from me to you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And also just for those listening, like, you guys don't understand how much joy this is bringing Glennon. Every morning I walk upstairs to get my coffee, and she's like, I did it. I wrote a thing. I did it. And she's doing it every single morning. And it's so fun for her and the joy that it is making and bringing to our family. It's been a full on real treat.

[Amanda Doyle]

I know. And by the way, it's a little treat because I was talking to Lizzie Gilbert about this two days ago because she was so excited that I was writing again. And I said I forgot that the reason I haven't. One of the reasons I haven't been writing is because I always think I have to write a book. And it's so long and big, and I don't know things that are long. I don't know things for a long time. Okay. I don't know how to explain that, except I only know things shortly. But then I'm clear. I. I'm like, wow, I know that thing, and I write it down, and then it's over, and I forget it, and it's not connected to anything else. So that's why this newsletter is so good for me. It's a little bit of wisdom, a short wisdom, and I can let Go of knowing things long.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. All right, you guys go to glennandoyle.com you're going to see a signup box in the top middle of the page where you can submit your email address. And if you're on Instagram, go to the page, click the link in the bio. Sign up for the newsletter. It's the second button. You can do it. We love you. It's going to be a treat.

[Amanda Doyle]

Also, there's no news in the newsletter. It's a no newsletter. I just don't know what else to call it.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a non newsletter.

[Amanda Doyle]

No newsletter. Bye. Welcome 2. We can do hard things.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hello.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, gosh. I. You know what?

[Amanda Doyle]

What, babe?

[Abby Wambach]

I really was excited about this episode today.

[Amanda Doyle]

You are?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

You were in past tense. You said I was excited. Are you no longer?

[Abby Wambach]

No. In the past I've been excited about this because it's so beyond, in a way, the thinking about it and it requires a different level of preparation. So I've left all of my brain outside and I've just come with my spirit.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh my God, that's so woo woo of you. And that's good that you're feeling woo woo today because what we're talking about today is a word that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable.

[Abby Wambach]

It gives Glennon the ick.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So the gen zers say, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

And that word is manifestation. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

And the reason why did you say it so bizarrely?

[Amanda Doyle]

Because even the word makes me feel uncomfortable. So I feel like I have to say it in a way that like, you can sense my air quotes or something. But I will admit that while the idea of manifestation makes me roll my eyes, I also think it's kind of true, but completely untrue. I'm having a hard time. As I told Abby and my sister, I don't know what my take is, but one of the reasons that we're talking about manifestation today is because, well, on New Year's one of our teenagers was like, we're going home from the party because we're going to make our vision boards. And I was like, I'm sorry, what did you say? You're making vision boards? Which felt very like back to the 90s, you know? And so I think the idea of manifestation is having a resurgence with the Gen Alpha, Gen Z kiddos. And so we just thought we would get together and talk about what manifestation is.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, what it means to us.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. And Sissy, what do you sister will.

[Abby Wambach]

Tell us what it is?

[Amanda Doyle]

It is. What is that?

[Abby Wambach]

We don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is It.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, we should. First, we should start with, like, what is generally accepted to be, like, what people think about when they think about manifestation. And the idea is that your thoughts manifest your reality. And so if you change your thoughts, you can manifest what you desire. Okay. And there has been a lot of. It came mostly to super popular in. Remember that book, the Secret?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, I love that book.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was just so in that book.

[Glennon Doyle]

Of course you did.

[Abby Wambach]

God, that book was the best.

[Amanda Doyle]

Wait, you loved that book?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, Law of Attraction. The whole thing. I went down. I bought the videos. I bought all of that.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, Abby Wambach, I love you. Tell the pod squad what that is to you. What's the Law of Attraction? What's the secret? What did you love about it?

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. It was. By the way, I just started living on my own. I think this is like an 05 ish.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was 06. It came out.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And I just got my first little condo. I was living by the beach in Los Angeles, and I was like, really feeling myself. And at the time, as like a new adult, it's like 25. I felt like I needed to have a kind of belief system because I had just exited the Catholic Church and I didn't have much atheism. Felt kind of lonely. There's not like a group, or at least there wasn't at the time that I knew about that I could attach myself to. And then this book and this philosophy kind of came out. And I think Oprah was all into it also. So I just, like, dove in and I was like, oh, this is, like, so interesting. The spiritual world. Like, it gave me access to the spiritual world that I knew. Like, the Catholic religion was giving to people who firmly believed in Christianity, Catholicism.

[Amanda Doyle]

And what was the promise of it that made you feel attracted to it? What's the secret?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, it's like these different ways of thinking about it. So one of them is, like, Law of Attraction. Right? That was, like, a huge thing that I was really trying to understand more about myself. Trying to understand, like, being on the national team. And I don't know, I was just trying to evolve in spiritual, mental and emotional ways that was going to help me become a better leader and a better soccer player. Like, that's what my goal for this was. And I don't remember every single rule or law that was written in the Secret, but I just remember the feeling of feeling like, this is religion, but in the spiritual way.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hmm. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like a different realm. It's like a realm not of what you can just see and touch. There's like another realm there. So the law of attraction is the basic. Basically the idea that was in that book is that it's a philosophy of the world where positive thoughts attract positive results, negative thoughts attract negative results, which is a slightly different than manifestation, but the same kind of like, that got a lot of people on board with the general concept. Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. If you think good thoughts, good things happen. If you think bad thoughts, bad things happen. If you. If you speak things into the universe, you can make your requests known and it will come back to you. That's manifestation. Right. You can think, speak, focus your way towards the life that you want and believe.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, I think that there's a belief system that has to be a part of. I don't know, for me, like, when I think about the reality coming true of a life that you dream of, you have to believe in its existence before you actually enter into it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

The baseline idea is that. And it's hard for me to talk about it because there's the kind of popular science influencer version of manifestation, and then there's the kind of science neuroscience backed. This is the way brains work that has like a view into manifestation from that perspective. And so it has different colors based on the way you're talking about it. But the overarching idea, which can be super dangerous or feel super empowering to people, is basically your thoughts control, influence, attract. Your thoughts become reality, basically is like.

[Amanda Doyle]

A thread just that is. Makes my whole body reject that. That's a great news for someone who has mental health issues. Or that is so damning in a way to think about, like, oh, so we teach everyone that they're not their thoughts, and then if I have, like, obtrusive thoughts, then I'm gonna have a bad life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Well, like on our ocd, Allegra Castins said how truly, truly dangerous and terrifying it is to people with ocd, this whole, like, flood of manifestation everywhere. Because their whole survival depends on knowing that there's a big difference between their thoughts and the acting on the thoughts and making it a reality. And so it is dangerous to people who have intrusive thoughts and are trying to show who they are outside of their thoughts.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. I think it's interesting. I can understand. Okay. If you. You know how religions, there's always the religion. Okay. And there's people who subscribe to that religion. And that usually has a lot to do with kind of deferring to group, a group idea and like, taking on a community and Working inside and sort of having like middlemen between you and God. That's kind of what religion is. And then there's also a form of religion of that religion that is a mystical version of it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

So there's like the mystics are the ones who I definitely identify more now with the mystic version of a religion. So I feel a lot of Christian energy or something inside of me. But I subscribe more to the idea of like, I would like to remove the dogma and the middlemen and just have like a direct experience with God that is very convenient for someone like me, who also doesn't. People scare me. So it kind of takes the community aspect out of religion. When you only go to mysticism. Right. To me, manifestation feels a little bit like that. If you are disenchanted with religion, manifestation kind of says you don't need any of it. It's just you and your thoughts. It's just you. It's you and God or you and the universe. You don't need other people. You don't need a dogma. Which makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like it's just part of individualism, of Western individualism, that we don't need anything but us. We're like our own little gods.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, I totally.

[Amanda Doyle]

Which is true also.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. But I totally disagree with you. I think that at least the form of manifestation that I ascribe to, it's not just a calculation with me and myself and my thoughts. It is a calculation with me, myself, my thoughts and the energies of the world and your energy and our kids energy. I am trying to cultivate and manifest using all of the different energies. It's not just like, oh, only. And I understand that some people only ascribe to like, your thoughts will create your life. I get that. That is not how I interpret my form of manifestation at all.

[Amanda Doyle]

But do you think. I guess I just don't see a lot of people manifesting collective liberation.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

It feels like people are always manifesting like a car or a new job or more money, which is good. People should have a car and money.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it just.

[Amanda Doyle]

That form of manifestation, it doesn't feel like it's connected to collective liberation. It feels like it's always aimed towards an individual perfectionist. It feels to me like manifestation is the mysticism of capitalism.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, that like the prosperity gospel, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

The whole idea of the folks who took the secret, the law of attraction, they're like, wait, we can capitalize this using, you know, faith consciousness. And so they started Preaching. If you follow God, you will get rich, right? If you give your tithes to this church, richness will come to you. So there's a whole kind of co opting and subversion of this. But your point is really strong to me about the individualism in it because there's also this thread of the individuals are both responsible, responsible for their outcomes that are positive and the individuals are responsible for their outcomes that are negative, thereby completely bypassing and ignoring every systemic oppressive force that exists. So like, if your outcomes go awry and your situation isn't what you want it to be, you have failed to think yourself into a better situation.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, if you attract what you think. And so the flip side of that is, you know you are to blame for your issues. That is now on you. And then by definition everyone is absolved who is part of the oppressive systematic forces. Because it's just you and your brain, it's not anything else that's happening. So it puts no pressure to dismantle systemic oppression when you're just saying outcomes are based on individual's thoughts. And so therefore it might work for certain people, right, who don't have those obstacles in front of them. But if you do have those obstacles in front of you, you're going to have to think yourself to freedom and jump over every single obstacle that's there.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right, totally.

[Amanda Doyle]

What if I told you the most important part of spring cleaning is the sock drawer? Yep, you heard that right. It's time to ditch the worn out pairs and refresh your collection with bombas. First up, if you're looking to kickstart a new walking or running hobby, Bombas Blister, fighting, sweat, wicking athletic socks are your secret weapon. They'll take you from that first mile all the way to your first marathon. And if you have a wedding to attend this spring, Bomba's dress socks are perfect for loafers, heels, heels and any fancy shoes you're rocking. I love wearing my Bombas merino wool socks. They are so, so comfortable. It feels like I'm walking on clouds and their underwear feels like nothing. While giving you all the support you need. Bombas is going international. Enjoy worldwide shipping to over 200 countries. Head over to bombas.com hardthings and use code hardthings for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M b-s.com/hard things Code hard things for 20% off your first purchase bombas.com hard things and use code Hard Things.

[Abby Wambach]

What does the future hold for business. Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 different answers. Bull market or bear market? Rising or falling rates? Inflation up or down? Can somebody please invent a crystal ball for me? Until then, over 41,000 businesses have future proof themselves with NetSuite, the number one Cloud ERP. With this unified business management suite, you gain a single source of truth that provides the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. Imagine having real time insights and forecasting at your fingertips, allowing you to peer into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can focus more on what's next instead of looking back. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com hardthings the guide is free to you at netsuite.com hardThings netsuite.com hardthings okay, I'm.

[Glennon Doyle]

Excited to tell you today about MIDI health. If you have heard our menopause episodes, you know how passionate I feel about women having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives. Here's the deal. If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause. Log on to MIDI Health. I have done this. It is easy. In fact, I have recently been pursuing with many health hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body. They're clinicians. They meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. It's all through telehealth and 247 messaging and they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at Join midi. That's Join midi.

[Abby Wambach]

Manifestation is for the privileged. It's for the the few who don't have these huge brick walls as obstacles in front of them.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think that that's right, some versions of it for sure. But then the interesting thing is when my brain says absolutely, manifestation is bullshit because of what you just said, because of the culture that we live in, because of systematic racism, because of homophobia, because of misogyny. Then there's another part of my brain that goes but isn't systematic racism and misogyny a manifestation of a bunch of people who thought this into existence?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, manifestation and organization and intention and persistence, right? The dismantling of all of Our freedoms have come from decades of organization. So it isn't just individual people hoping to oppress women and black people and trans people. They got together and did something. So this is a piece. You have to imagine it, envision it, and then you have to make it happen. And this is a piece that does not exist in the manifestation world.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, right. It's very individual, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Or maybe, we don't know. Maybe there's groups of people getting together and manifesting together and, like, doing the opposite of what the people have done to get us to this place. Maybe there are people manifesting collective liberation. That's not what we really see on TikTok. You know, there's only.

[Abby Wambach]

There's these white manifestation is different. Like white lady manifestation.

[Amanda Doyle]

But then you guys, like, I'm thinking all this, and then I'm like, oh, my God. In Untamed, I literally wrote that we should all write down the truest, most beautiful families, countries, communities we can imagine. And that when you write it down, when you are intentional and you think through what you want, then you put it down on paper, and then that becomes a blueprint for making it real that our dreams and our plans, they come to life one dimension at a time. So what the hell is that if not manifestation? And there is a part of me that says, well, of course, if you don't know where you're going, if you leave your house and you don't have a destination, then you're just going to drive around and wander. And if you in your mind have an idea of where you're going, then of course you have a better chance of getting there. So there's a lot about this that also makes perfect sense.

[Abby Wambach]

So I feel. I guess the word is conflicted. But I feel like there's a paradox within me around this because I 100% believe that manifestation works when it works. And I also 100% believe that there is a reality that it's full of shit. And I guess the only thing that it makes me feel a little bit better believing that we have this, like, unknowable and unseeable connection with the world and our lives and the outcomes. It makes me feel like. I mean, when I was playing soccer, and I've talked about this on the pod before, but the book, the Secret, the Celestine Prophecy, the movie, what the bleep do we know? I don't know if you guys ever saw the movie. What the bleep do we know? Well, like, everything is matter in the world, and part of this movie in terms of like our bodies being water and us being able to literally look at the molecules and the chemistry of water, when you like send positive energy and loving thoughts towards it, it actually makes the water molecules different looking than when you send angry and mean energy towards water. Now, I know this sounds so weird.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wild, and it doesn't.

[Abby Wambach]

But like, I want to believe that I, me in my body can affect we and the world in a way. And I'm not saying like I'm going to make the world a better place, but I believe, and I believed on the soccer field that if I energetically believed and manifested and had an intention of some beautiful outcome and I was tapped into myself enough, and I was also tapped into the energy of my teammates and the energy of the crowd and the energy of the millions of people watching on television, that I believed that there was more of a chance we could win. Now, we didn't win every game, so this philosophy and idea falls flat because we didn't win every game. I didn't manifest the win every time. But then there has to be this like, reality and acceptance of, of the universe actually having a part to play in the roles of how all of our lives kind of unfold. Because so much of what happens is a matter of timing. When we were born, the generation we are living through, the things that are happening, like these trends and forces that are outside of ourselves that we don't have much control over, and then how we like pivot and interact within all of it. So I 100% believe in manifestation. And also in the same breath, I also 100% think it's fucking bullshit. Yeah, it's like, same, same.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I have the same paradox and I have a bias towards believing science is credible. So I'm like naming that bias.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is that a bias? Now thinking science is real is a bias.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I'm saying, like, if I'm looking at this and I'm saying I'm looking at a hundred people who swear to God this works for them, and then I'm listening to a neuroscience professor, I'm going to be like, I'm betting on the neuroscience professor. So there is some bias there. I'm admitting that, like, but I think we live in a world that biases science so much that it's not a bias. But I'm just saying that's my thing. There's a couple of things you said, Abby, that are so interesting, which is that when you said the universe or whatever, another interesting part of the kind of pop culture manifestation is that the Universe wants something good for you. Right. That is a thread throughout this. That is not what the neuroscientists say. But this is the idea that, like, if you can tap into this, the universe only wants good things for you. It's conspiring in your favor and you just have to tap into it. So this is a thread. But when you're talking about the energy around the water molecules or whatever, science tells us that our energy fields that are from within us go five feet from us beyond. We are walking around with an energetic field that is confirmed by science. So it isn't. When you think about like, okay, my energy interacts with yours and I think I can bring energy to this situation to impact it. You are doing that scientifically. So that's a real thing. But Glennon, when you're talking about what you wrote in Untamed, I think that is even if you are just when people say I'm journaling about it or I'm writing out my intentions. Even that idea of like, it is that piece of things like forcing you to think so clearly about what your goal is or what your intention is, that you can actually see it. That you are like taking it from your brain and being able to name it. And it's like that whole idea, if you can see it, you can be it. Like, Abby, probably every team that you've ever been on competitively, part of your training has been to visualize the goal. Visualize it when see it in your brain.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's because that makes it more likely you'll be able to do it.

[Abby Wambach]

Cuz scientifically, it's called imagery. It's called imagining something because it's creation. Right. Like you're creating something out of nothing. And how do you know where you're going unless you've created it in your mind already? Blueprint.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like making a path and then you ski down it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like you're. You're creating a neurological path that then you can access physically. That's how it feels to me.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

Do you guys wonder? I sometimes feel suspicious of my own suspicion of manifestation because I'm always looking for where the misogyny that the culture has planted inside of me. And sometimes I wonder if not all, but some of our disdain for manifestation is because it's more of a female way of talking. Like if a guy is saying, I want this, I'm planning this, I'm envisioning this. We just call it leadership. Is manifestation as like the way we see it play out something that is more female than male. And that is why there's a cringe vibe to it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like we discredit it because it is more female based. Just like we discredit like it's fake female jobs and think they're soft and not hard. And I wonder also if there's another piece of it, like to believe yourself to be powerful enough to be able to manifest the life that you want is so audacious that maybe it's like, that's fucking crazy. Who am I to think that I could do that, you know, Especially if.

[Amanda Doyle]

A woman is doing it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I think one of the things, sister, that you were just saying about, like, one of the pathways here is like the universe conspiring on your side and good things will happen to you. Right. Karma, all this stuff. I actually don't believe that the universe is conspiring on your. For us.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, I don't.

[Abby Wambach]

I. Well, not since my brother's died. When he died, I went through like a really a troubling process of therapy where I had to get really honest with myself and confronted about the question of, like, if you're a good person, then good things happen to you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And I think that that's where part of this, like, you know, the universe is conspiring in your favor. I think the universe is happening, the things are happening, and how you interact and perceive what is happening is the important part. Because, you know, I'm at least now at a place where of course I wish my brother were alive. But I'm also like, wow, this has taught me so much. And I'm having some gratitude around the difficulty and the grief and the trouble that this has caused me. At first, last year I was in the trouble of it and it was excruciating and I hated it and I didn't want to be participating with it, but I stuck with it. And now it's like, so the way we think about the universe happening to us, the way we interact with our thoughts around the world, that is happening to us. To me, in. In terms of being a pretty positive and optimistic person. I don't know if this is something that you can teach yourself, sister. I'm sure you know, like, more about that. But I want to live in a. In a life for the brief time that I'm here feeling like not that the universe is going to, but that I'm going to have a very interesting experience. And I want to believe that certain outcomes are possible. I want to believe that there are certain things that I can do that will allow the universe to teach me the lessons that I meant to learn here during Earth school. As Liz Gilbert says, I mean, the.

[Amanda Doyle]

Beliefs thing is a thing, right? It doesn't have to be like I believe that I'm going to get a hundred dollar bill when I walk out the door. Like that. Not that type of belief, but like if, if I come to a group of people and I'm thinking and feeling, and I know this from much experience, if I come into a group, everything about me is the same. All right? I'm not like scowling or whatever, but I'm thinking, I cannot stand these people. I want this to be over. I can tell the difference. I am affecting people by what I'm thinking. I'm not saying that I understand what the hell I, or why. I just know based on my experience on this earth that when I come to a group of people and I'm thinking, I love these people, we are lucky to be together. We're gonna make beautiful whatever it is, everything goes differently than when I come in with different thoughts.

[Glennon Doyle]

That part I believe that's confirmation bias. I mean that is the way that our brains work. What we think, we interpret all the data around us to prioritize those pieces of data that confirm what we think and what we believe.

[Amanda Doyle]

So is that manifestation then?

[Glennon Doyle]

So this is part of manifestation. So like if we want to get into like the neuroscience of it and in terms of like the. The leading professor neuro surgeon on this whole thing is Dr. Doty. He is like leading expert of the world on the science of this. It's fascinating. I'm going to try to summarize how it works because it's interesting because it's a thread of all of these things we've talked about in different ways that like the way it works in our brains. So first of all, he says the universe doesn't give a fuck about you. And that is not bad news or good news. If, when we're waiting on the universe to reward good people, then what happens when bad things happen to people? Are they bad? I know this is a confusing thing. You are the universe in your existence. You're not waiting on the universe to bestow this goodness upon you. So what his definition is, and we can go through the brain science of this, but manifesting is defining an intention. So you have your intention. You define your intention in such a way that it gets embedded in your subconscious and in a way that makes it more likely that that thing will happen. And this is just how the science works. Why, if things are embedded in your subconscious, when it gets embedded there, and we know this because of all the stories we were born into and told for the first decades of our lives that are now so embedded in us, they're in our subconscious, and we are spending our lives confirming them that we are not worthy, that we are. We have to keep hustling forever that people are going to leave us.

[Abby Wambach]

What?

[Glennon Doyle]

Whatever it is. When something gets embedded in your subconscious, it activates different networks of the brain. And these different brain networks are like attentional networks. Right. So by embedding it and activating these different networks, you are telling your brain, a, this is important, and B, I need to pay attention to this. So you are. Now, when you think, when your brain knows that something is important and you need to pay attention to it, you by definition are living your life in such a way to make that thing more likely to happen because you're paying attention to it and you think it's more important. Like, your body believes that that is true. And so a key part of it, of what he's saying is that it's just basically a way to train your brain to move these things into the subconscious so you can take advantage of the brilliance of your brain, which is already doing that stuff with other things that you don't necessarily want in your subconscious. So part of this process is not only defining your intention, it is figuring out what is already operating there. What are already the stories that you are telling yourself more and more so that you can see those as the negative self talk, the whatever, and try to make them conscious instead of subconscious.

[Amanda Doyle]

Interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the reason he gives this example, like, you know how you can be at a party and there's like hundreds of people there and it's so loud, and someone from across the room says your name and you hear. Doesn't make sense that you hear your name being called from across the room in this very loud, crowded, crowded room. That is because your brain knows that paying attention to your name is important. It has been trained to do that. It seeks it out. Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

So it doesn't make sense that you can. Because if someone said grapefruit over there, it wouldn't even register in your brain. So this is the idea that the embedding that that happens, does that make sense?

[Amanda Doyle]

I think I feel much more comfortable with the whole concept when you're talking about it that way. When it's about brain science, when it's about energy, because I can be with you for all of that foreign.

[Abby Wambach]

This episode is Brought to you by Ring Cameras and Doorbells. A lot happens while you're away from home. That's why Ring makes it easy to check in from anywhere, whether you're saying hi to an unexpected guest, making sure those packages are safe, or keeping your pet's company. My favorite While you're out grabbing grass groceries, it's all a few taps away right from your phone. Be there with Ring Explore cameras, doorbells, alarm kits, and more right [e-mail] this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Lotion Tissues. You can't predict sick days, but with Kleenex lotion tissues, you can be better prepared for them while helping keep your skin healthy. Whether it's a surprise sneeze or a stuffy nose, it's always good to have something gentle on hand. Kleenex lotion tissue is moisturized to help prevent skin irritation while you're battling those unwanted cold and flu symptoms. It's extra care when you need it most. With lotion built into every tissue, Kleenex lotion tissues helps keep your skin moisturized and healthy with every wipe, and for those cold winter days, keep relief within reach. Grab Kleenex lotion tissues to help avoid the added discomfort of irritated skin during the cold and flu season. I mean, why not have one less thing to worry about when you're not feeling your best? We all know life is unpredictable, but if you can be prepared for that time of year when germs are going around by making sure you've always got Kleenex lotion tissues at the ready for whatever happens next, grab Kleenex.

[Amanda Doyle]

I haven't thought this all before the way through, so just I'm gonna stumble through it, but there's something about when the God thing gets added. Because honestly, when we say the universe, we're talking about the big energy. We're talking about God.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're talking about some higher power, some organization, organizing force, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's what we're saying, right? So that is when it starts to get scary to me. Because in spiritual traditions, money is not considered the thing that reflects whether God approves of you or you are good. Like most spiritual traditions, it is the opposite of that, right? So when prosperity gospel, which is basically saying if God loves you, God wants you to be rich, God wants you to have so much money, there's a million different forms of that. But to me, when that is entered into the field as an idea, as a spiritual idea, then every time we are testing something that someone's telling us, is that true? You have to Test the shadow side, right? So if it is true that if God loves us and approves of us, God wants us to be rich and God, then that also means if you are poor and you don't have money, then God somehow does not approve of you. Which is how to me, we end up with the broligarchy running what they are pitching as Christianity, right? That is how the slow, slippery slide into slowly believing that if God, you can tell that God has anointed you, whether you're rich. If you're rich means we can approve of Donald Trump as a Christian figure. How it must have to do with how rich he is, like God has chosen him.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's the moral authority that is inferred from money. You are favored on this planet, therefore must be favored by God.

[Amanda Doyle]

And because of your actions, we end up with Elon Musk as a leader. We end up with like all of these. For me, they're not disconnected. This idea that we have somehow allowed and what I would say is for that to be entered into Christianity is a stunning reversal of the biblical ideas of the meek shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the poor, like the kingdom of God is with them. There's a Bible story where Jesus is out in the desert being tested and the devil comes to him and says, right now, say the words, I want to be rich. Say the words, I want power back. Literally saying, you know, you can manifest this shit. Just say it. If you're God and Jesus going, absolutely not get behind me. Because there's something in that story about I can manifest whatever the hell I want to. And it's not going to be that kind of power and it's not going to be money. It's going to be this collective liberation dream. So when manifestation is tied to prosperity, to, to empire, power, that's when all the ickiness comes in from me. And having said that, I sure as hell understand in a system like this where power and money are hoarded and so many people have so little and we are completely disenfranchised with all systems, it also makes sense to me for people to be like, I'm taking this shit into my own hands and I do want to play with the power that I have and call money towards me and call so and both for me, but scares me when prosperity gospel enters any realm at all.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's also super interesting when you look at the reverse use of this in liberatory work. When you look at the other thing that neuroscience says about manifesting one of the things that you have to do is calm yourself. A way of even getting to the place where you identify your intention, to embed it in your subconscious is a place of calm and quiet. So for me, it's like the chicken or the egg. Is manifestation working because manifestation works? Or does it quote unquote work because it requires you to put your body in a state of relaxation and focus? And the only times we can transcend what is and imagine something better for ourselves is when we are in a state of relaxation and focus. So what Dr. Doty talks about is that what happens is that we are constantly, especially in the world you just described, Glennon, operating from our sympathetic nervous system. This is the flight, fight, freeze place. So we are constantly there. We are in the fear space all the time. We can't access the thing that is a deeper intention, a deeper desire. And that when you start practicing the kind of mindfulness that you need to identify your intention even before you put it in your subconscious, you are moving to your parasympathetic nervous system where you can see clearly, where you can imagine something beyond your immediate fear space, which is the place of I have a dream, which is the place I woke up set on freedom, which is the place where all of those liberatory dreams that leaders had to identify, had to see with such clarity that they could say it to the world so that other people could see it, had to come from those places that were not. I'm only responding to the world. And so when you think about the reverse use of this, which is that you can get to a place where you can see beyond your immediate and see a better future that can be used for hugely good things, to be able to paint a picture, to be able to invite the world into visualizing what could be.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, that's why Trisha Hershey's work is so freaking important, right? That's like there's a field you can go to that is beyond what we see, that you can dream up something new inside of. Because otherwise we are just constantly either in obedience to the culture or in rebellion to the culture. But either of those are still not originating from an original place inside of us. We're just constantly responding to the quote man. Whether we're obeying or rebelling, it's still in reaction.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's not even the Man. We have internalized the man so that the man lives in our heads. Those limiting stories, those beliefs that we are currently operating from, from our subconscious have been effectively co opted from the power structures that need us to be limited and under Control.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

Can I tell you the story?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

So I am listening to Sapiens that the Yuval Noah Harari book. And this book is blowing my mind. It's been out for years. And part of the book it's talking about like evolution and how we are descendants of Neanderthals. And one of the things that is just like really, really coming to me right now is that like, I think that where we are as a Homo sapiens animal, where we live on the evolution timeline is, I think that we are in an in between space because you can imagine the early ancestors, our early ancestors and them figuring out, and he writes about it in this book, that they had to figure out how to defeat the Neanderthals to be able to take over the world. And part of the defeat was the evolution of a Homo sapien was that they told myths and stories. So our consciousness, our cognitive revolution is what he called it. The ways in which our brains are different than those of the Neanderthals and the other cousins of the Homo sapien. To me, it's like we're living in a story that has been told over and over again and has been risen up and brought down with, with different regimes and, and empires, all of it. But I just wonder like, where are we on the timeline here of our evolution? Where else will we gain access? And I do think that this kind of thinking, I do think science matched with spirituality and humanity. It's just, it's a fascinating thing to me to think about that, that the way that we evolve and societies are form and cultures are form and little families are formed is by the stories we tell about it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And the stories that then get embedded into us. So we are a storytelling driven species. And so it's like if you break that down just into the individual, it's like, okay, what are the stories that are, that have been like embedded into the software of me? Are those stories aligned with the way I want to live my life? Are they aligned with society? Are they aligned with culture? If not, I mean, freaking psychedelic stuff, you know, we could go down the psychedelic route here and we should, and unwind and try to get into what these little embedded stories are, whether they're the ones that you want to be carrying or not. Pull them to the top, bring them to the top of your consciousness to be like, sort it out. Oh no, I don't want to do that. So I say all of this is like, if people are more interested in this Sapiens book, I'm fascinated by this idea right now. And I really do think that we are in a. In an in between space where maybe the next, you know, thousand years. By the way, I'm not talking about like the next generation or Gen Alpha. Like in a thousand years, maybe we'll be able to tap into this other thing. I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's so true. Our coding is stories, right? Whether there's stories of our value, there's stories of our role, there's the stories of our worth in the world, all of it, what we should be doing, which fits perfectly in line with the idea of manifestation. It's like what Glennon said in Untamed. Be careful the stories you tell yourself, especially about yourself, because that is the track that is running and that is what you are looking to be confirmed in the world. That's right as you're operating.

[Amanda Doyle]

I guess. Like, what I would say about what scares me about manifestation in some of the ways it's presented and why I understand it too is in times of pain and chaos and broken systems like we're in right now, and I'm not saying I understand the system is working exactly as it's supposed to. I mean broken and spiritually and morally, and in times when so many people feel such a loss of power and control, I fear that our little projects of safety and liberation will become more individualized. For example, we're still in the midst of when we'll be for years in responding to what happened with the LA fires, okay? And I watch Pockets of the quote, solution being people individually hiring private firefighters and protective things for their individual home and buying them with their own money. And my God, I understand the human need to protect your family. I mean, I'm not saying that I wouldn't be doing that. Honestly, I don't know. But it scares me because I'm thinking this is like a horrible version of Darwinism, but all based on money. Can we manifest? Yes, but can we do it together? Can we dream up a new way of building that means that everybody, regardless of how much money they have, whether they have enough to could maybe survive another fire? Or can we manifest together? Can we avoid, resist the like capitalistic whiteness project of individual protection, individual manifestation, individual survival, and collectively dream?

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, this is crazy because it's. Exactly. And when people say that's nuts, that doesn't make. That's such a lofty idea. This same method, this same thing that you're calling forth for people to do together now in response to crises, in response to oppression, is being used by the other side and always has been. In Trump's inauguration speech, he used and called back this 19th century phrase of manifest Destiny. He said, we are continuing the manifest Destiny. Manifest Destiny. What was it? It was just the idea that American settlers were destined to expand westward and take over all the Westlands and every land they could see and touch. Okay. That was just a manifestation of an idea from someone's head that that should happen. So it's like it's not just a woo woo, lefty idea is being. It has been used for from time immemorial and was just in the inauguration speech that they're asking us to manifest together this idea of domination. And the question is, are we going to manifest together an idea of liberation?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow. Wow. That was fucking good. Good ending.

[Amanda Doyle]

We love you, Pod Squad. I assume you're gonna have some thoughts. The inbox is open, the voicemails are open. We'd love to hear what you have to say.

[Glennon Doyle]

And if you don't tell us, don't worry, we're just gonna manifest it.

[Abby Wambach]

All right, you know what? We're not even going to tell you what the email or the phone number, manifest that. Just manifest it to yourself and get in touch with us.

[Amanda Doyle]

We'll see you next time. I know we will, because I have.

[Abby Wambach]

Seen it and we've already manifested it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.