Maybe We CAN Be Loved w/o Being Known: Ashley C. Ford

Summary

WE CAN DO HARD THINGS
Episode: Maybe We CAN Be Loved w/o Being Known: Ashley C. Ford
Host: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Date: December 11, 2025
Guest: Ashley C. Ford

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt, vulnerable, and funny episode centers around deep questions of intimacy, relationships, and identity with acclaimed author Ashley C. Ford. The Pod Squad—Glennon, Abby, and Amanda—invite Ashley into a conversation inspired by a transformative holiday visit and explore what it means to truly be loved, how we seek to be known, and how our wounds shape our relational dynamics. The episode is a blend of lived wisdom, raw honesty, laughter, and the comforting sense of chosen family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Connection Beyond Proximity and Holiday Traditions

• [02:30] Glennon shares how Ashley’s visits became a soothing tradition around the holidays, describing the healing presence Ashley brings:
  “You just fix everything for us.”
• The group laughs about family surprises (“Kelly is a boy!”) and the assumptions people make about Ashley’s relationship.

  Ashley [04:14]: "Not for random boys, they're not. They're not ready for that... I am not a lesbian. That happens to me all the time. Just all the time."

• They highlight how relationships can flourish without constant physical presence, a thread of “presence not bound by geography.”

2. The Concept of “Mind-spreading” & Communication Triggers

• [10:23] Ashley’s metaphor for assertiveness in intellectual spaces:

  Ashley [10:23]: "What if what you're doing is a form of mind spreading?... You're just walking up the stairs with your big mind, bossing everybody around, spilling outside your seat."

• She explores the tendency of wanting to control conversations intellectually—mirroring physical “manspreading”—and the tension between helping and dominating.

3. The Fear of Being Misunderstood

• [13:56] Ashley reveals the roots of her anxious pursuit for clarity in relationships:

  "I have a grave fear of being misunderstood and I have a grave fear of being misinterpreted... my knowing has not evolved into believing."

• The group unpacks how intellectualizing feelings and seeking excessive clarity can sometimes serve as self-protection, not merely curiosity.

4. The Loop Between Rationality and Emotional Overreaction

• [21:41] Amanda discusses the existential terror of not being understood, equating even small gaps in comprehension with profound loneliness:

  "It's like an existential threat of forever loneliness... Like, if you don't understand me in this micro thing, I'm just going to be here on this island forever."

• Ashley sympathizes, tracing her own sharp reactions to a childhood of being gaslit and blamed.

5. Relationship Dynamics: Seer and Speaker

• [30:47] Ashley shares how her marriage works:

  "If we had roles...I would be the speaker, but he would be the seer. He sees everything."

• She describes learning to let her husband’s insights land even when they're uncomfortable, recognizing "nobody has more experience of me than him."

6. Internal Negotiations & Working with “The Board”

• [38:19] Ashley details her approach to untangling internal conflicts by imagining her many competing inner voices as “the board,” with herself as the chair:

  "Everybody comes from their different perspectives...my job is to hear them out and then decide what's the best path forward."

• Rather than shutting down emotions (“being annoyed never helped me”), she practices listening and integrating these voices for honest communication.

7. Is Love the Same as Being Known?

• [41:33] Glennon questions whether being loved requires being fully known, given we often don’t know ourselves completely:

  "Is love not just being known? Is love being tended to? Being pursued? Nourished?"

• Ashley [42:56] reflects, "Part of my definition of love would be the pursuit of knowing a person… Love includes accountability. Love includes service. Love includes a certain amount of loyalty and attempts to understand."

8. The Solo Work of the “Basement”

• The metaphor of “the basement” emerges for periods of emotional darkness or internal struggle.

  Ashley [54:43]: "I am not lonely because people refuse to join me there. I am lonely because I have solo work to do in that space."

• Abby expresses sadness at not being able to “fix” Glennon’s basement time; Ashley gently affirms the necessity and dignity of solo struggle, and the role of partners as steady lights outside the pit.

9. The Macrocosm: Navigating the World’s Pain

• [65:40] Ashley discusses moving through harassment and trauma, surfacing into a world full of injustice and conflict.

  Ashley [67:55]: "What I had a lot more of was anger...I know exactly where I can point that anger. I know where my strengths are. I know how to fight the fights that I'm ready to fight."

• She affirms a legacy of perseverance:

  "My grandmother always said she never lost a fight in her entire life because she never stopped fighting until she won."

10. Celebrating New Purpose: Local Journalism

• [69:37] Ashley shares her new role as a women and girls reporter for Free Press Indiana/Indy Mirror:

  "You're telling me that you're going to send me around the state to talk to women and girls about what's hard in their lives and also what they're doing about it... That's a unicorn job."

• The group celebrates how this role unites Ashley’s strengths—mothering, community, place, and writing.

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Memorable Quotes

• Ashley [13:56]: “I have a grave fear of being misunderstood and I have a grave fear of being misinterpreted.”
• Amanda [21:24]: “It’s like an existential threat of forever loneliness…”
• Ashley [38:19]: “All those voices in my head. That’s the board, right? But I’m the chair.”
• Ashley [54:43]: “I am not lonely because people refuse to join me there. I am lonely because I have solo work to do in that space.”
• Ashley [42:56]: “Love includes accountability…loyalty…and attempts to understand.”
• Ashley [67:55]: “I know exactly where I can point that anger. I know where my strengths are. I know how to fight the fights that I’m ready to fight.”
• Ashley [76:30]: “The miracle of grace is that you can get what you’ve never been given.”
• Ashley [79:31]: “Indiana…has a culture of faux humble behavior that cultivates itself in a policing of each other’s confidence levels…”

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• 02:30–08:41: Holiday tradition, the comfort of friendship, funny stories about Ashley's relationship
• 10:23–13:16: 'Mind-spreading' vs. helpful communication and self-inquiry
• 13:56–19:25: Origins of communication anxiety and emotional responses in relationships
• 21:24–30:47: Existential loneliness, parental wounding, the seer/speaker dynamic in marriage
• 38:19–41:33: Navigating inner conflicts—the “board” metaphor
• 41:33–44:47: Questioning the “love = being known” equation
• 54:43–57:48: The “basement” metaphor—on solo emotional work vs. relational rescue
• 65:40–69:13: Surviving harassment, anger at the world, and channeling that energy constructively
• 69:37–76:30: Ashley’s new job, joy in purpose, and community story-telling
• 79:31–83:52: Why telling Indiana women and girls’ stories matters; challenging state narratives

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Tone & Atmosphere

• The conversation is warm, confessional, and often hilarious, marked by gentle teasing and genuine affection.
• There is a shared sense of striving for honesty (even when honesty is uncomfortable), a collective respect for pain as a teacher, and an insistence on hope and possibility—especially in the face of loneliness or adversity.

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a masterclass in how intimacy, friendship, and self-examination weave together. Ashley C. Ford brings wisdom and humor as she explores the spaces between being known, being loved, and loving others—even when it’s imperfect or hard. The Pod Squad brings their own messy, honest questions, and the result is an hour of connection that feels like both a therapy session and a celebration.

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For more on Ashley, the hosts recommend picking up her memoir “Somebody’s Daughter,” describing it as essential, healing, and beautifully written.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, Pod Squad. Hi. What in the world do you want to tell them about this episode? So I think what I want to say about the episode you're about to listen to is that, first of all, it is with Ashley Seaford. Ashley Seaford is one of our dear friends. And the reason that I asked her to come on is that actually the three of us, you, me and Ashley, sat on our couch a few months ago and Ashley expressed her experience of this moment and how she was making it through and thinking through it and feeling through it and how she was dealing with her relationship with her husband through it. And her rawness and transparency and brilliance just is what I needed more than anything in that moment. And I left that day with Ashley thinking, we're having this conversation on the pod because I want the Pod squad to experience from Ashley what I got to experience in my home, which was renewal, wisdom, a new way to look at things, a new way to love the world and my people and myself and how to see it all. So here it is. Here's the conversation I've been wanting for you all to hear for months. Ashley is the author of the New York Times best selling book, Somebody's Daughter, A Memoir, one of my favorite books. She is also the former co host of the HBO companion podcast, Lovecraft Country Radio, and of Ben and Jerry's into the Mix. Ashley lives in Indianapolis, Indiana with her husband, poet and fiction writer Kelly Stacy, who we love, love, and their chocolate lab astro renegade, Ford Stacy. After you listen to this episode, absolutely fall in love with Ashley and want to hear every single thing she's ever said, you can go back and listen to. I think we've done two more episodes with Ashley in the past, but for now, just snuggle in. Open your mind, open your heart, Ashley Seaford.

[B]

And also for those who didn't catch on it, the most Ashley thing about that bio is that her dog's four names spell out arfs.

[A]

Great.

[C]

She is a literary genius.

[D]

Enjoy.

[A]

Ashley, listen. Okay, so when we were planning this season of the podcast.

There were a few conversations that I knew had to happen. Yeah, that's just had to happen. And this is one of them. And let me explain why. First of all, I don't know if you've noticed, but we have developed a bit of a tradition which is around the holidays, you either you or you and Kelly come to our house and we just sit for hours and you don't know this, but you just fix everything for us.

[D]

Also, just a shout out to Kelly. Oh, greatest, greatest man.

[C]

Ever.

[A]

Yeah, we'll listen to this.

[C]

The only good one. Yeah, I was gonna say, not a lot of competition.

[A]

Well, speaking of that, one of the first times that you and Kelly came to our house, I told my family, I told the kids, ashley's coming with her partner, Kelly. And so when Emma, our youngest, went to answer the door, she didn't open the door for you. She left you and Kelly on the stairs, and then she ran upstairs and. And I was thinking, what the hell is happening? And Emma goes, mom, Ashley's partner is a boy.

Kelly is a boy. And her eyes were like saucers. And I go, yeah. And she goes, well, what should I do?

And I said, let them in. And she goes, are you sure?

[C]

Listen.

[A]

Okay. That's when Abby and I knew we had some work to do.

[D]

Especially because Emma's straight.

[C]

Poor Emma.

[D]

For now. At least, that's what she's told us.

[C]

You have to prepare.

[B]

Children are not psychologically prepared for these kinds of things.

[C]

They're not.

[A]

You have to prepare them.

[B]

There are some things that they're not emotionally ready for.

[C]

Not for random boys, they're not. They're not ready for that. And listen. Dear Amma would not be the first person or the 50th person to be shocked that I am not a lesbian.

That happens to me all the time. Just all the time.

[B]

And I'm like, yeah, I get disappointed, Ashley.

[C]

Just a little disappointed. And nobody's more disappointed than me.

[A]

Makes sense to you? In my heart, I feel like the fact that you are married to a man and that you're not a lesbian is queer.

[C]

Oh, for sure. Especially this guy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So we're going to get to Kelly. But this last holiday, you and I were both separately, a little bit struggs.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So we call it in our house. Just trying to find any place to stand or understand what was happening in the world. And you and Abby and I sat at a table and talked for hours. And I.

Told Abby that I felt like that conversation was what I needed to just keep going. And it wasn't that we solved anything. It was just your honesty and transparency and rawness and wisdom. And I thought, I just want some version of that for the Pod Squad. So I don't even have. I've never, in 489,000 episodes, been less prepared because I've never trusted anyone as much as I trust you to.

[C]

Just facts.

[A]

Is that right? Yeah. So that's my dream here, is just that the Pod Squad gets to just hear you talk about life in the World.

[C]

I always. If I know two, three weeks out before I'm coming anywhere near you, I'll text and see if I can come to your home and see the two of you. Because let me tell. It's. It's. It's heart filling. It's a reminder of joy and connection. Because it's not like we see each other in person all the time. Okay. I think at this point, we have seen each other in person since six times, like, total. And. Which is so weird to think about, right? Because it's like, how is that possible? But it's true. Like, I thought about it before I came on the pod today because I was so excited to see you and I was so excited about talking with all of you, and I had to think about it, you know, because then it's even less with Amanda, you know, that I've gotten to see her in person. But there's this throw thread, this connection that's born of something that location and geography can't really hold, right? Like, there. There is a presence that I think we've been able to provide for each other that has not demanded our physical presence regularly, consistently, or at all times, which is not common. You know, that is very uncommon, I think, for a lot of people, but not for. For me, and certainly not in my connection with the three of you. And coming to sit on your couch at that time didn't just feel like, oh, I always try to see Glennon when I come to town. It felt like, I really hope that she lets me come because I need to see her.

I really need to see her. And I need Abby to be sitting there. And Abby is such a. Like, Abby's like an oak tree. She's so steady, and she's just, you know, even when she's having that big emotional, you know, like, moment, the way she's able to communicate herself and the way she's able to hold herself makes me feel steadier, you know, so it's lovely to be around that in those times. And also just like, I don't know, I like that place. I like those burritos, and I like that couch. And.

Do you think 90% of it.

[B]

Might be the burritos on the couch?

[C]

It's like, It's a strong 60.

It's so comfortable. Like, it feel like it just. And. And like the fact that I know that when I come, there's probably going to be the burritos and there's definitely going to be the couch.

[A]

It's a.

[C]

It's another form of Steadiness, it's another for. It's something else that makes the world seem less chaotic in that moment. So it. Yes, I love it. I, it. There's a lot of peace in that house. I'm very sensitive to energy in a space. And I don't say that because I'm like, particularly, woo, woo. That's something that I wish wasn't true.

I wish it wasn't true, but it's true. So it just does a lot for me to be with you, in conversation with you, sitting with you. There's always a moment where I'm like, yeah, they get it. You know, she gets it. And that's a beautiful thing not everybody has access to. So I just thank my lucky stars that I do.

[A]

I was thinking this morning about and, and what the Pod Squad needs to know is that Ashley just drops things sometimes and then I smile and then nod. And then the rest of the year, it's all I think about. So let me just give you one example that I remembered this morning. Ashley, do you remember when we were. I don't know if it was this year, last year, I was complaining about how I have good ideas and, and I don't understand why people don't always want them. I think we were talking about Abby and me, and here's what Ashley Ford said. She just gets quiet for a minute. She goes, glennon, you're a person who really doesn't love it when men take up a lot of space in a room, like where they man spread or they kind of use their body in a way that is. Takes up other people's space. She goes.

What if what you're doing is a form of mind spreading?

You're just walking up the stairs with your big mind bossing everybody around, spilling outside your seat.

[B]

You're taking the aisle armrest with your ideas.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? It happens. I do it.

[A]

Say more about this. Please say more about this.

[C]

I do it as well. I think because of the way my brain works and because of, you know, the way people work, I am so much more likely to be able to identify what is annoying me versus how I am annoying.

Personally. So I get re. I can get. I'm. I can be a very particular person, you know, especially over the last several years where I've like newly started to not just notice, but accept that I have preferences and what comes up because of that and how I get really annoyed and really frustrated. And now I feel this charge not just to feel that in the moment and try to make it disappear, but express that.

But as I have done more of that, it has made me notice, though I am annoying at times, I do things that are annoying. I know that sometimes when a person thinks about an idea or a concept or even a word, something big, like love, right? What they're thinking of when they think of the word love is whatever they've come up with, whatever definition their life and their experience with love has sort of forced them into. And I know that when I'm talking about love, I am keeping that in mind. I'm thinking about the fact that everybody has a different definition for love. So if I'm talking about love, I don't just want to talk about it. Like we both know what each other's talking about. I want to make sure we know what we're talking about when we both say that word. I want to make sure we both know what we mean. Do you know how annoying that is in a conversation to have somebody be like. When you're like, you know, well, I just feel. I feel betrayed. And they're like, well, is that what betrayal is to you? Like, what does betrayal look like? It. Does it. How does betrayal feel in your body? Is. Are you sure that that's the feeling that you're experiencing right now? And they don't care about any of that. They just want to tell me about what happened or about their frustration. They're just trying to, like, give me something. And I am taking what honestly should be a moment where I'm sort of accepting the gift of, like, their willingness to be vulnerable and open with me with that kind of, you know, trust and care, that I will be able to hear them and hold what they're feeling alongside them. And I'm turning it into what, a thought exercise. But can I hold on?

[D]

I just have to. I just have a few follow up questions here. Hit me, because this is very important for me and my marriage.

[A]

Is it important? Let's define.

1 to 10.

[D]

But it's.

[C]

Where.

[D]

Where is it? Like, where is this? The root of. I think curiosity is, like, up here.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

What is. What is underneath the curiosity of wanting to. I think what it might feel like is like finding alignment with somebody so that we know where what we're talking about here and we know what we're gonna do. And it feels a little bit. Where does it stem from for me?

[C]

All right. I know where it comes from for me, which is I have a grave fear of being misunderstood, and I have a grave fear of being misinterpreted. I have put so much work and so much mental and emotional energy into clarity, into being as clear as I possibly can. Because I know that my reactions to being misunderstood and misinterpreted are some of my most out of control reactions when I am misunderstood and misinterpreted. The feelings that come up in me are not rational. They're not, they're, they are not rational feelings. They are very like, everything's going to fall apart. Now if you don't understand what I say when I'm speaking, how is anything ever going to be okay between us? Like, that's how I feel in that moment. And though intellectually I know that that's not what's happening, I know that that is technically incorrect, my assessment in that moment is incorrect. You know, the feelings that I'm having will not let me hold on to that. It's like it's one of those moments where I have to confront like the truth that my knowing has not evolved into believing. It hasn't gotten there yet. I know something that I am, my body does not yet believe. And there's more work to do in that area.

[D]

Okay, so then what would you call it? The impulse that you have to ensure the person you're speaking to is in complete understanding of you and not misinterpreting you? What would you call that process from the feeling of, okay, I need to, I need to feel safe in this conversation, first and foremost. And then you start speaking and intellectualizing whatever this conversation is. What is that called? Like, there's a space here and I.

[C]

Don'T know what it is I call survival. It's called, I mean, it is, I mean, that's part of it. If I were to like, break it down, like, as you're saying that I'm thinking, what would I call it? And, and the first thing that comes to my mind is.

The pursuit, the anxious pursuit of connection with anxiety. With anxiety at its core. Yeah, but like, with anxiety at its core. Like, that's the difference. I know the difference between me being curious because somebody said something that excites me. And I know the difference between me being curious because somebody said something that made me anxious and those. And I, in my mind, I go, well, I'm just going to ask questions. And they can't tell the difference. They can tell the difference. They can tell. They might not be able to articulate it and they might not be able to exactly put their finger on what's happening. And I probably in a lot of those moments, I'm not recognizing it. As well. But I have to be honest with myself about the fact that an excited curiosity question does not sound like an anxious curiosity question. They don't sound the same.

[A]

Ashley, the reason. The reason Abby's freaking out right now is because when I tell you that two days ago, we sat on that couch that's so comfortable to.

[C]

You love that couch.

[A]

And had an uncomfortable moment where Abby said something and I asked her a question, and my words were curious, but my tone and energy was anxious. And then we go through a process where Abby notices that she reacts in her body, and then I gaslight her for a long time, saying I was.

[C]

I'm just asking questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is the worst thing you can do to a human.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

It makes me a fantastic journalist and a pretty toxic wife at times, to be perfectly honest. And I have to recognize it, and I have to be able to do something about it.

[D]

It.

[C]

You know, Kelly and I have differences in our communication. Stuff that comes from a lot. It comes from our backgrounds. It comes from culture. It comes from, you know, what was considered normal here versus what was considered normal there. And the only reason that we've been able to really figure it out and not, like, completely give up on each other or. Or give up on ourselves to be per. Which would be more likely is because, honestly, at the end of the day, we both are really good at matching effort. And he puts in effort, I put in effort. I put in effort, he puts in effort. And so as we keep going along, we not only have those moments of seeing that those knowings become like, beliefs, but we also get to experience the other side of those issues and the. And the other side of those discoveries and. And that is, like, beautiful. It literally feels like planting a garden together and spending all, you know, like, spring and summer being like, that's not gonna grow. You know what I mean? Like, we put it in, we're still gonna take care of it, but it's like, clearly, I don't think it's growing. And then right when the fall hits, you got a pumpkin patch in the front yard. You know what I mean? And it's like. It feels like they came up overnight. And maybe the people in your neighborhood walking by are like, man, these pumpkins came up overnight. But, you know, who knows? Those pumpkins didn't come up overnight. You and them, you know, everything it took.

And what a precious thing. What a. It's immaterial. You can't buy that. You can't give that away. You can only make it together. That's so beautiful. And I would take a million miscommunications and little arguments and uncomfortable moments and awkwardness to get to that moment. Because that moment has always been worth it. And I didn't even know that was there. Nobody told me. Nobody told me that was there.

[B]

Okay, I have a question. Under the anxious pursuit of connection, like people, what is your thing under the anxious pursuit of connection? Because when you are saying this, I'm like, I can't really to any of this. I don't ask any questions, but I have the exact same thing, except mine comes out as anger. Like. Like if I am having a conversation with John and I'm trying to express something and he says something, he's like trying to be in the. He's being in the conversation, but he's saying like, well, that's like X. And it's like 2 degrees off when I'm trying to say yeah, or, or Honestly, it's like 85 degrees off.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's 2 or 85. It's like a fl. I just go red. Like I am so angry. And I think under it is like this. It's like an existential threat of forever loneliness. Yeah. It's like if you don't understand me in this micro thing, no one will ever. I'm just going to be here on this island forever, ever, by myself. And no. And no one's going to get it. And this is. It's double clicking on. Like my ultimate existential fear is that I am by myself. It's all on me. And if no one even understands this problem, who's going to help me solve this problem? Not you, Mr. 2% off.

[C]

You're never going to help.

[B]

Like, is that.

[A]

That's fair? Yeah, that's fair. That that tracks. I get that.

[C]

Yeah, I, me too. I totally get that. I have absolutely had many of those moments. And that same anger, and the anger is always tough because.

There'S the part of my brain, obviously, that is so angry. And then there's the other part of my brain that's going, whoa, what are you so mad for?

[A]

You're crazy, lady.

[C]

No, and those are happening at the exact same time. I'm so mad. And another part of me is like, ho, is you cool? Like, what is happening? Like, are you okay? Like, and, and it sucks. Like, it really, really does. And the only, like I, I have a million reasons. Right, right. Like why that is most likely the case. I was raised in a home where I was Gaslit a lot. A lot about a lot of things. I was a hyperlexic child who learned to read and speak really early. And that brought really great things into my life at school and at home. It got me in trouble, you know, And I had this thing that it must, especially with my mother. For so long, when my mom had moments of anger, it had to be somebody's fault, right? And it had to be somebody's fault who she could do something about it. It couldn't be somebody's fault who had authority over her in any capacity, because she can't do anything about that, but she can find a way to make it somebody's fault. Whose authority? She. Whose. Who is under her authority? Me. Her child. And because of that, like, I. My mom would tell me I was wrong about things I was not wrong about. I would be punished for things that I did not say or that had not happened. But when you love your parent, especially, and I had one parent, as much as I loved my mom and as much as I continue to love my mom, the dangerous thing is that that sort of authority and influence and momentary, you know, like, affections and things like that lead to a situation where you would rather it be you. Like, I really don't want it to be her. I want it. I want that, like, when I get in trouble, that it is my fault. So I have to figure out or find a reason why it's my fault. And then I have to go about the work of fixing that. And I got in trouble so much for what I said that I assumed for a really long time that I was just a bad communicator, that I was not good at communicating with people about what I thought, what I felt, or even what I meant. And it got to the point where, you know, sometimes you'll say something and, you know, when people, like, immediately twist it to make it so that, like, you're saying something else, sometimes people are doing that, right? And that would make me be like, oh, I'm not talking to you. Like, you are dangerous for me to speak to. Because not only might you misunderstand me the way some people seem to, but you will try to misunderstand me.

[A]

That's different.

[C]

So I'm not. I'm not doing that. The problem. My real problems come when it's somebody who I love and who I know loves me and who has always treated me well. And. And we have this great care and tenderness for each other, and we know we're both kind and compassionate. And then I say something and they say that thing that's 2 degrees off, especially somebody who I chose, who I trust, they say that 2 degrees thing off. And suddenly I am 13 years old again in my principal's office defending myself to high heaven because a teacher tried to make me say that Greece is in Asia. And I was like, no, it's not. And you can't make me say it. I'll never admit it. You can't. You can't. I'll die on this rack. You know what I mean? Like, that's how serious it was for me as a kid. And that continues to a certain degree. I know that I'm not good at lying, and I know that I'm not good at living inside of other people's delusions. And I know that I will never be able to make a person thinks that I think something's true that I don't think is true. So I'm like, we're gonna. So it's over. We're gonna die. Everything's gonna crumble.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Like, there's instant. Like, the look that I can often receive is that it's an. It's an immediate horrific betrayal.

[B]

Yes, it's a betrayal.

[C]

That's what it is.

[D]

It feels to me like. And I often say to Glennon, but Glennon, like, it's me.

[A]

And I'm like, is it.

[C]

We've just seen your true colors, Abby.

[D]

Yes, but here's. Here's the thing that I want I wan posit to you 3. Could it be possible. And I don't know what is coming first, what the impulse and how the feelings rise up. Could it be possible that throughout the process of whatever was misunderstood, the feeling that arose, the intellectualization of.

The betrayal, whatever it might be.

Could it be possible. And this could very well be no. That it is in fact, that we see you.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And it is, in fact, that.

Maybe we are off a degree or two, but maybe it is true that the. That you do inhabit the parts of you that I am actually mistaking you for because you have intellectualized yourself in such a way that you actually cannot see yourself in the full spectrum.

[A]

Shut up.

[C]

No, it's not that. No, listen, that.

[D]

Is that a reason?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Unfortunately for us, Abby is correct. Abby, you are absolutely correct. Like, that is absolutely. Kelly. That has happened multiple times in my marriage, that what I've realized in the process of all that anger and expressing that anger was that he didn't say anything wrong. He didn't say it the way I would have said it. He didn't Say it the way I wanted him to say it.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

He didn't reflect it back to me the way I wanted him to reflect it back to me, but he's not wrong. And when I actually think about what he said, it's not incorrect. It maybe feels like more harsh or it's deeper than I would have said. Right. I remember the first time my husband when Kelly said to me, I need you to just try to not be so avoidant for a second. And I was like, avoidant. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not avoidant. Like, I was very. And my reaction to not wanting to being upset about being called avoidant was to ignore him for the rest of the afternoon and be like, I have a lot of work to do.

[A]

That's right. I will not even talk about being unavoidant.

[C]

So I was like, I have so much work to do. I have emails to send. I have people to respond to. I don't. I actually don't have time for this. Like, this is not the center of my world, okay? Like, I have other things going on. Like, that's what. The hyper independence that comes up in me, the extreme hyper independence in those moments, and I have to wait and go back. Luckily, I have somebody who is patient and loving and who knows this about me, who sees it, who chose it. You know what I mean? And so he's waiting for me to get to a point where I'm sitting there and I'm like, I understand what you meant to say.

[A]

I forgive you for saying it in.

[B]

Such a fucked up way.

[C]

And I forgive you for. For upsetting me by sharing reality with me, which I did not request. So let's, let's. Let's take note of that, okay?

[A]

Yeah. And I forgive you for openly discussing who I am as opposed to who I am presenting myself to be. That is who I have given permission for us to discuss.

[C]

Hello, the wizard behind the curtain. I did not ask you to peel that curtain back. Flying monkeys. Get him. Catch him. Get him right now. You know, because I get it. Like, I totally understand. Like, and I see it sometimes in his face. Like, I see the genuine confusion in the moment of, like, you know, one of the things that I've had to really come to terms with is if we had roles in our relationship or in our marriage and not gender roles, but. But just like. Like, roles for, like, you're on, like, a journey. You know, my husband plays D and D, right? So, like, we're on a campaign and we've got our We've got our party together, and everybody has a different role. We're trying to figure out whose strengths are where. I would be the speaker, but he would be the seer.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

He sees everything.

And he sees it clearly. And the worst decisions I have ever made when it comes to people, which usually I don't even make bad decisions when it comes to people, but when I do, I was always forewarned by Kelly, specifically. Always. And where Kelly is comfortable, anybody can be comfortable. The way that he sees the world, the way he observes things, he doesn't have the same fear that I do. I'm always trying to communicate. Right? Like. Right. Like I'm. I know what I see, and then I'm trying to show you or give it to you. And I'm trying to do that as clearly as possible. Kelly's just okay with seeing it. He doesn't really have to communicate it to other people. He doesn't really feel like he has to. He will, but he doesn't feel like he has to share it with people. But if you ask him, he will be honest with you about what he sees. And you might be like, well, how would you know that?

[D]

Or.

[C]

Or where did you get that? Or what showed you that? And he. It doesn't matter to him. He knows what he saw. He knows what he sees. And I have had to learn how to trust that. Not just when it's pointed at other people.

And trusted, also when it's pointed at me, you know, because nobody has more experience of me than him. There's nobody in the world who has more experience of me. There's nobody who has loved me better. There's nobody who has encouraged me more. There's nobody who's cared for me more kindly. He's paying attention. I would be throwing away.

I would be throwing away something so valuable if I stopped listening to him and really hearing him when he tells me what he sees, you know, because it does mean something, even if it's not what I would have said or how I would have said it.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[D]

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[B]

Can I ask a question about. Because you. You touched on something that felt like, to me when you said that. When. So after you have a big reaction, part of you is like, oh, that was bad. And I just had a disproportionate, illogical, irrational response to that thing. And then you're in your head about that. Like, I feel like I live half of my life either acting. And then in my head, there's one part that is, like, that wasn't justified. You were overreacting. That was too much. Why are you so crazy? And the other part is, like, sticking up for this part of myself that's like, no, you're not understood. You have a right to be understood. You have. And so.

70% of all of my relationships are in my own head. So this is my question. Like, in order to get out, to get to the place where you're having this conversation externally instead of internally.

[A]

How.

[B]

Did you get out of that loop of fighting with yourself about it and instead.

Being honest, do you have to accept that you're irrational and say that?

[C]

Yeah, kind of. Like, I mean, I call all those voices in my head. That's the board, right? But I'm the chair. So, like, yeah, I gotta go listen to the board. Because they got thoughts, all right? They. Everybody comes from their different perspectives. Everybody has a different goal. Everybody has with what they've prioritized as most important.

My job is to hear them out and then decide what's the best path forward, you know? So I don't. I know that, like, I get annoyed by, like, the voices and, like, the. The contradictions and all that stuff, but just being annoyed never helped me deal with it. It never did anything but make me frustrated. And if there's one thing that I don't know where this comes from in me, but it is probably one of. One of the top inclinations that has really helped me in life. I have a really strong inclination to not keep doing things that aren't working.

Whatever the opposite of that is. So it just. It wasn't working. So I'M like, if it's not working to just be frustrated, but I'm gonna have to hear you anyway. Then what would you do? In a classroom, you'd make sure everybody got a turn to speak. You don't want everybody talking at once. You make them raise their hands, you know, and you call on them one at a time. You hear everybody out, and then you're the leader of this space, so you make the next decision. So I do have that part of me that's sticking up for me and being like, you are a strong woman who doesn't need anybody. And you could walk out the door right now, and it will not matter. You will always make a life for yourself, loneliness be damned. Ain't no such thing as being lonely when you got a good time with yourself. You know what I mean? Like, there's that part of my brain going on, and then there's the other part that, like, he is the best thing that ever happened to you. Your life would be nothing without him. Why would you ever walk away from the best person you ever met? Your best friend, who you love and think about first thing when you go up, when you wake up in the morning, and last thing before you go to bed at night, you're really going to mess this up. You're really going to let that happen. And then there's a part of you that's like, you were just communicating. You were just trying to communicate. I don't understand what the problem is. You were just trying to communicate, you know, like all of that is happening. And so you go, okay, everybody quiet. Everybody quiet. All right. So, yes, you're right. I'm a strong woman. I'm a very capable person. I could make any kind of life I wanted. And you are also right. I choose to make a life with him because he's my best friend, and I trust him with my life. And I know that he would never intentionally hurt or harm me. And his biggest goal in life always is to make sure that I'm having a better time and that I'm happy. And. And you're right. I was trying to communicate. I think the issue here is that I was communicating something that was important to me, and I was feeling sensitive about it. And when he made that comment, that sensitivity got triggered, and my reaction was outsized. So thinking about all of those things and all of the goals that I have in this moment, what's my best course of action? To go talk to my best friend and tell him I'm sorry for my outsized reaction. This is what was happening inside of me at the time. I'm going to try to really pay attention to this and make sure I have a better plan for how to deal with my emotions when this comes up again. Because it will come up again, you know, and then great.

[A]

As I'm listening to, basically the three of us discuss the existential terror that comes when we feel like someone's not understanding us clearly, I'm wondering if that beneath that is a basis that we have defined love as. I have, over time, somehow just taken as fact that to be loved is to be known. Love is being known. And for the first time ever, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, can that be? Not exactly it. Because I don't even know. We do a version of this, Ashley. Ourselves, we're memoir. Like, we can't even understand ourselves. We're like, we're. We think to love, to set. To love ourselves. I have to know myself. So we spend hours and days writing sentences and paragraphs to explain who we are to ourselves. Yes. We cannot even know ourselves. So my question is, is there some sort of shift in definition of love that would help us be less terrified? Is love not just being known? Is love being tended to? Is love being pursued? Is love being nourished? Is love being a million other things than just being known? And would that make us less terrified when we're misunderstood?

[C]

I think love, or part of my definition of love, would be the pursuit of knowing a person with whom you are in intimate relationship with. Like, that would be part of it for me. But love includes so many things. Love includes accountability. Love includes service. Love includes a certain amount of loyalty and attempts to understand, you know, because I think. I don't know who said it, but somebody said one time that we don't marry our parents. We marry our triggers. I don't remember who said that, but I. I do think that there's something there that. Like, that. Like, there's part of you in those moments that's just like, having to figure out those definitions. Having to figure out, like, what? Like, okay, in this moment, I feel unloved. Okay, so what does that mean about how I define love? Do I agree with that? Do I agree with that right now, in this moment? Because it might be a belief I'm holding on to that didn't make it true. We know that, you know, and sometimes we need to go alter those beliefs, but we'll only find that out when they're confronted. We only find that out when somebody says or does something that makes us confused in that moment. That's why you got to go check in with the board, you know, that's why you got to hit the board up because they're seeing it from all those different perspectives on your side. But even having to look at the different perspectives that you have and how that forms your reactions or your beliefs is a practice in thinking about the fact that everybody else is having that every other person is also.

Coming up with these definitions, having these mo. Having these voices, you know, to a certain extent say, you know, is it this? Is it this? Am I this? Am I this? These seem like they exist, you know, in black and white and often they don't. They're on a rainbow spectrum. What color are we in? You know, not what side, what shade. And like just trying to figure that out. It's tough. And I don't always know, you know, because I have different. I figured out a lot about myself because I, you know, I finished Liz's book and Elizabeth. Elizabeth Gilbert? Yes, Elizabeth Gilbert. I finished her book and I was like, oh no.

Oh no. I got some codependency stuff going on I have not addressed, bro. I got some stuff going on that I have not looked into. Why did she.

[A]

Wasn't it easier? Wasn't it easier when she just wanted us to eat pasta?

[C]

I was like, awesome. Can do on track.

I was here before you asked.

[D]

I think something around this whole conversation that feels really interesting to me is in the pursuit of being known and that being kind of a North Star for you particularly and how that can navigate you in some of the ways that you think and intellectualize your feelings and whatnot. I think that.

It there, there's like a self fulfilling prophecy in it because I find that the, the more errant I am.

The more closed off you get. And the more closed off you get, the more distance gets created between us in certain moments. And I think I just want to say that out loud that if you, if, if you're pod squatter and you're listening to this and, and your partner triggers every, every bit of you every day because that's what they're here for. It's like these are the opportunities of why our souls are here to evolve into our next evolution. And we are with this particular person because they are our great mirror and they are our greatest teachers and they're our greatest reflections on how and what we need to work on. And so I just want to say I too want to be known. But more than that, I want.

To.

[C]

Have.

[D]

A close and Intimate relationship and one where I'm your person and you're my person. And I don't want to have. I, I too have to work on some codependency things, but I want to have the, the. I want to have as little space in between us. I know that there is space, but I want to, I want to know you. And I think that it's just interesting, this self fulfilling prophecy that ends up happening, working against us.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. Abby, let me say something. First of all, man, you and Kelly might be related some weird way, but also what you're saying is so real, Abby, because one of the things that I was really hoping you would say in that moment is it's not just that we're here to trigger each other. We're here to trigger each other in a safe space. We're here to trigger each other in a space with a person who loves us and who cares about us and who is committed to not giving up on us so that we can work out some of those things with each other, which I think like, minimizes harm. But it's not going to save us from discomfort and it's not going to save us from awkwardness or distance or any of those things momentarily. Because the beautiful thing, like even in that distance is the knowledge when you eventually have the knowledge that like we're going to come back together. The distance is so scary. Or at least like I can say that my husband has told me before, the distance is scary because there is part of him that's like, is she gonna come back? Even though we're married, we're committed, we've been together this whole time, like, but they're still part of it for him. And it's. That is especially triggered by my hyper independence. That's like, is she going to come back?

[A]

Back?

[C]

And that's why the distance is so scary for him. But I know I'm gonna come back. You know what I mean? And then I also have the part of my head telling myself, and if you don't go back, you're gonna be fine. You know what I mean? So there's all of that happening at the same time. So I'm not having the same experience he's having when we're moving, when we're in those distant places. Now one of the things that I've had to figure out is that a, is that he's having that sort of feeling when we're distant. Because I wasn't having it. I did not assume that he was having it and I did not Realize how much it hurt him and how much pain. How much psychic pain he was experiencing in those moments of distance because he genuinely felt that I might not return to our connection and to our beautiful relationship. You know, like, yeah, just genuinely worried that that might happen in a way that I wasn't. But I also had to be able to recognize that while I'm so. Like, I've done so much work to be able to communicate, to communicate clearly, to observe people, to pay attention to them, to be kind, to model to, you know, all of these things. And I have to be honest with myself about the fact that that work has also bred a resentment. For anybody who I don't think has done the same work that I have.

It'S bred a resentment. Resentment. Because when we have those moments and you don't understand what I'm saying, I'm not just like, obviously, I'm, like, having that moment of I'm not known, I'm not understood. This is. You know, my body feels like it's in danger when I'm not understood. Because I grew up in a space where my body was in danger when it wasn't, when it was misunderstood. And a lot of people have that at different times in their lives or feel like their livelihood is at point. Some if they are misunderstood. But I've had to recognize that just because I was forced into circumstances that demanded I develop that skill to a certain level in order to survive does not mean that my husband has been negligent in not doing it the exact same way. With all of the fervor that trauma provides in those moments. He doesn't have that trauma. He was not traumatized in that way. For him to be at the exact same level I'm at in this space would have meant. He's a. He's also a white man in America. Okay? For him, what he would have had to go. Go through in order to do you know what I'm saying? To just like. But to just be where I am right now.

[A]

Now.

[C]

Not necessarily. I'm not talking about his capacity to reach it. I'm not talking about whether or not he has the desire to reach it. What I'm talking about is the fact that my resentment is coming from the fact that this is not just a skill I love and that I chose. It is a skill that was demanded of me that I had to develop. And there is some resentment in that. Had to. But that's a location.

[B]

Ashley. I think that. That the loan that makes sense of the loneliness. It isn't just A skill. It is a skill and it's a backpack of burden that you carry around. It's also a gift to the people that you love. But it's also a place you live. Yes, it's a place you live. And so when you find out that the person that you live with and share a life with you doesn't live in the place that you live.

That is inevitable, that it's going to feel lonely. You can't even meet me here.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

You've never walked this.

[C]

But I also have to say what I've had to decide is that I would rather figure out my loneliness in some of those hard places than force him into a place of fear and anxiety to meet me there. I don't want him to be afraid and I don't want him to be anxious. Those things are going to come up. I don't have to teach him anything. I don't have to bring that into his life to prepare him for the future of it. He knows fear. He knows anxiety. He may not know them to the level that I know them. He knows what they are and he knows how he experiences them in his body instead of taking the opportunity to hold on to and share some of his steadiness, some of his optimism, some of his, you know, natural affability. I want him to come down to where I am in a place of discomfort, in a place of anxiety, in a place of pain, in a place of fear. Because I don't want to be alone there. And he loves me so much that he'll do it. He'll. He'll try to find a way to come down there and meet me down there. It's like trying to screw something into the wall, right? And the person who's holding in the dark and asking the person who's holding the light to come down and help you turn the screw. It's not a two person job. It's just not. So I've had to come to the conclusion that there are a lot of the places where I am lonely. I am not lonely because people refuse to join me there. I am lonely because I have solo work to do in that space. And he wants to be there with me. He just can't. He wants to be there with me, but it's not necessary. And that's not what I want.

[A]

Abby, are you crying because I keep dragging you down to the basement?

[D]

No, because I don't want you to be alone down there.

[A]

Ashley and Amanda are there with me.

[C]

She's got us, Abby.

[D]

I just.

[C]

We're all in the pit.

[D]

I know. It's just, like. It's a lot, and I feel like. I think it's important because as a person who, like, prides herself on being a caretaker, had, like, delusions when we first got together that.

That I'd be able to.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Make you feel less lonely and more peace. And it's just a. An acceptance. Like, I feel like I can't do that for you. And I just. I don't want to go down to the basement either. I just, like.

[C]

But you want to fix it.

[D]

I just wish. I just wish you.

I wish you peace, and I wish I could give it to you. And it's frustrating that I.

[C]

But that's okay, Abby. Cry. Like, it's okay to cry about it and be sad about it. It's okay to be sad about it because you need that, too. You need to, like, be okay. Being sad about the fact that you can't always go meet her exactly where she is, that's good information for you about who you are and what you want, what you like, how you love. You know what I mean? Like, your sadness in this moment, your frustration, too, is not indicative of anything other than the great capacity for care and love that you have that you wish it could surpass the truth of your humanity. You wish you could move beyond what is human and make it all better for her. My husband is the same way. He has cried wishing that he could take away pain, that he could join me in pain that he can't. Right?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It's okay that that's the fact. It's okay that that's what's going on. And it's really, really good for you to cry about it and to feel it and to know it, because that's just getting you closer to accepting it, you know, it's getting closer to you believing. To be perfectly honest, at the end of the day, she's gonna be okay down there.

[D]

Totally.

[C]

And she's going to come meet you when she's okay. She's going. Even before she's okay. You're gonna see her little hand reach up out of the hole and be like, hi, I'm right here, and I see you, and I love you. Do you want to hold hands?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and you can hold hands and be right there next to the hole with her without going into it.

[B]

It.

[C]

And every time she looks up, she sees you right there. Another reason to keep going. Another reason to keep climbing out of the hole. You know, it's okay to play that role, too. Sometimes you're not the fixer. Sometimes you're not the person who's lifting somebody up. Sometimes you are the light that they're coming toward. And it's okay to let yourself be that.

[D]

I didn't expect to have this conversation on this call.

[A]

This is what she, she does.

[C]

I just love you guys. And I. And I have the same thing. I want you all to be happy. You know how I get like, I, I want you to be happy. I like candles for y'. All. I think about y' all all the time. And it's not just because, you know, I spent some time with these cool ladies and they're cool. It's because, like, there's a generosity of spirit. And it, it, it's easy to be generous with generous people. It's so, so easy. You make it easy.

[A]

And now it's time for our ads.

[B]

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[A]

I have two questions.

[C]

Hit me.

[A]

Okay, three.

[B]

She's getting greedy.

[A]

The first one is.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I'm gonna admit that I'm feeling a little bit misunderstood.

[C]

That's okay.

[A]

Basement dwelling. And I just want to say one thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you ever think that there's. That the purpose of being in the basement is not just to get to a higher level where there's light? Like, I don't know that I would trade basement life for kitchen life. Like, I. It is definitely dark and uncomfortable.

[C]

I will give everyone that. Yeah.

[A]

But I think there's like, treasures that can only be found in the basement.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Some of us are cocoon insects. We gotta. We gotta cocoon. Right?

[A]

Right. Okay. So there's that. Then I also want to know, how are you and Kelly, and you in particular, dealing with the macrocosm of what you just talked about, Your experience leading you this way. Kelly's experience as a white man leading him another way. And then dealing with the world.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In that place.

[A]

And then also, I want to know what exactly you're excited about right now, because we just saw all of the information about the Indiana Midwestern local girls stories. And I like, when I saw that, I was like, oh, of course. This is the ashliest thing that ever happened. So answer any of those or none of those.

[C]

Yeah, no, I got you a. I think the basement is sometimes a place that, like, you have to go. I have not always been pushed into the basement or fallen into it. Sometimes I walk my happy ass down there.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like, absolutely. And it felt like, for whatever reason that I sometimes can articulate. Sometimes can't. It felt like what I needed to do. And I have at times gotten tired of being down there. I felt like now that I'm down here, damn, I really kind of wish I hadn't because.

Because I want to go back up. And those stairs are steeper. That climb is steeper than I remember, my Lord. You know what I mean? And sometimes I'm down there and I'm like, you know, I see my tracks from the last time I was down here, and I remember my way out. And I'm not scared of being down here. It's just where I gotta be right now. And I accept that. Whether or not I chose it, I just accept it. And the second one was about, like, the macro chasm of, like, the big stuff going on. And me and Kat, I just want.

[A]

To know how you're dealing. You know what? Forget the way I frame the question. I just want the pod squad to hear a few minutes of you talking about however the hell you're dealing with this moment and how you're existing inside of it.

[C]

It has been tough. I want to. Okay. I want to start by saying, as you know, that there was a couple years time where I was dealing with a person of being harassed by the person who assaulted me when I was in middle school and his wife and getting a lot of messages and all from people and all sorts of things that were going on. And I'm not somebody who typically deals with a lot of harassment on social media and the Internet. So that was already a little different. But it was also just obviously extra triggering because of the context. And I had a rough time of it, like, in a way that I not only didn't expect, but got really mad at myself about because I could not believe I was in such a bad mental and emotional space after all the work I had done to, like, prevent it. I could not believe that I was like, I'm back here. Like, this cannot be real. Like, this is true. And it sucked. And it lasted for so much longer than I was comfortable with. And when I started to come out of it, started to have some of the first, like, glimmers of really feeling like I was coming out of the hole that. That put me into. The world was way worse than it was when I went in.

Terrible things are happening everywhere. Atrocious things. Genocide, kidnappings, detainments, illegal things, you know. But I'm black in America, so, like, the law has always been a thing for me. That I'm like, that's just what people say they agree to. And that does not make it moral or right just because it's legal. So I've always felt that way, and I've always had those feelings. But what I found when I came out of that darkness and I stepped into this world was that I did not have the level of fear that I expected I would from what was happening. What I had a lot more of was anger. And that is not necessarily rare for me. But this level of anger really made me feel like.

Ah, I don't. It really tapped into the parts of my personality that I'm always trying to keep away from the people I love, but have no problem pointing directly at the people who are doing what I would consider evil acts. And that part of me has become more controlled, and it has grown. And I think it did that in that dark. I think that darkness forced me to figure things out. Not just about my fear, but about my anger, because I got so angry and angry in a way that I felt like was breaking me down from the inside out. And I did not know how to let it out. And I had to figure that out over the course of several months to a year. And now I'm at a point where I'm like, I know exactly where I can point that anger. I know. I feel like I know where my strengths are. I know how to fight the fights that I'm ready to fight. I know what I think doesn't work. And so I just don't do those things anymore. And just pushing ahead as far as I can, because I truly believe as long as I have breath in my lungs, I have the ability to do something, you know? And I come from a family where my grandmother always said she never lost a fight in her entire life because she never stopped fighting until she won.

And I like that. And I feel that it feels like a legacy that feels like a mission on my heart. So that's how I feel about the world right now. That's how I feel about the world right now. And yeah, I'm really excited. That sort of led me into this situation where I saw this job posted and I have not had a job in like 10 years.

Because I typically have not enjoyed them. And I, and, and I found a way to not do it and I was like, awesome. But I'm also a Capricorn and I love steadiness and I love routine. And I thought, you know, maybe someday there will be something that comes up that feels like it makes sense to me, you know, So I always keep my eyes peeled. And with the way things are going in the country right now, I share a lot of job postings online because people are always looking for, you know, employment is a really big issue, especially for and with black women right now. So I'm always sharing job postings. I'm always doing that. But I saw this one and I literally. And it was for the women and girls reporter. Statewide position with Free Press Indiana, working with Indy Mirror. Indy Mirror is a local news publication that started almost as soon as I moved back. And I've been a big fan of the whole time because they have these incredible journalists who point their focus in a direction and you know, it's local news, so it's all indie based. But the way they find the answers, the way they present the news, the way they go out and communicate with the community and share it made me so happy. So they had this job posting, post op. I shared it, but I also said, you know, low key might apply. Because I thought like for a second I was like, hey, this, this job is looking pretty dope from a myriad of factors and, and I really am interested, you know, but also I was feeling like.

Do I want to take a local journalism job from somebody who could thrive in this position who maybe has been like coming up the ranks through local press for a while. And then I, I bring my, you know, size 10 New York Times best selling boot and kick over all their hopes and dreams and like, actually I want this one. You know, I haven't had enough. Like that's how I was feeling. Like, like a villain, like a cartoon villain. Like that's how I felt. But luckily that like little thing that I wrote, low key can't apply or low key might apply, made the CEO of Free Press Indiana reach out to me and ask me if I was serious. And after he reached out to me, I was like, maybe I am serious. And so then he asked if I Wanted to come talk to the people who would essentially be my supervisors in that position. It was supposed to be a half hour conversation. We ended up talking for an hour and a half. It was just like, I had so many ideas, I had so many things. I did end up telling them, you know, that, like, I was a little concerned about if I would be, in some way or another, stepping on toes by going after this position, you know, And I found out through other channels that while I was sitting around wondering, you know, if I was taking up too much space by applying for the women and girls reporter, that, like, five men had already applied and. And that, like, you know, and really, truly felt like. Felt like their maleness, you know, was part of what would give them a unique perspective in that position. It would be unique.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and. And once I. Once I heard that information, you know, whether it was. I don't know if it was true or not, but once I heard that information, I had my resume and application sent in within, like, the hour. And they reached out. I went through a whole interview process. I got to meet people on the team, talk to them about the ideas I have for what could be done in this position, what we could create, what my ultimate goals would be in this position. Because it's like you're telling me that you're going to send me around the state to talk with women and girls about what's hard in their lives and also what they're doing about it. And I get to tell. Turn around and tell those stories to as many people as possible. Like, that's. That's a unicorn job, you know, not to mention the benefits. All right? Health insurance is going up. Not for Ashley. Okay?

Not for Ashley. I game the system. No, but I figured it out, you know, that this is what I wanted. You know, I had not wanted a job in longer than 10 years, but I had not wanted a job in so long. And that desire. That feeling of desire for a job was so new. Like, it was like a fresh feeling that I hadn't had in so long. So I just. I totally went after it. And when I got it, nobody. Like, there wasn't a celebration anybody could give me bigger than the one I was having for myself in my own heart. You know what I mean? Like, I was just so happy, and I. My first day was this Monday, and I continue to be happy with my choice and so excited about it, even more so now that I know that part of the. One of the organizations that partially funded my position is bringing Glennon to Indiana.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Next month.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, sure is.

[A]

I just texted my speaking person and said, what am I supposed to bring? It's in two days. And she said, as usual, you are incorrect.

[C]

You're incorrect.

[B]

It's next month.

[C]

It's next month. It's okay.

[A]

Your.

[C]

Your paper calendar. We got you. Congratulations. Thank you.

[A]

Alignment for you.

[C]

I know.

[A]

I mean, one of the things that I know about you and what you value. I mean, you have always had this real, sincere, sincere, important connection to.

Mothering, to children, to. To being a mirror for kids and. And mentoring and being involved with children. And then you also have such a commitment to community and to Indiana and to your. Where you are and, like, making the world a better place where you are and then writing. So it's. I think it's cute that you think you chose this.

[C]

Well, you know what's interesting? A few years ago, I read this really amazing.

Just. I mean, amazing memoir. It was called Untamed by this woman, Glennon Doyle. And in it, one of the things that I read, and I'm pretty sure it was that. Because, to be honest, I read all of them at the same time and then read them again, but I know it's in one of them. I'm pretty sure it's untamed. But I believe it said that the miracle of grace is that you can get what you've never been given.

And.

I was not given the privilege of good mothering. I didn't get that. And I was not given the privilege of growing up in a place where I felt like writing and journalism were something that I could do quite easily or even, like, because I wanted to. But I can change that. I can help change that here. You know, I can mother people in my life and also mother myself, and I can, you know, share these stories and be a writer right here, the way I think many people could if they could turn that knowing into believing, you know, and if I can be part of what inspires them to move along that path, what else is there for me to be doing? You know? What else was I supposed to do? I know there are a lot of things I could have done, and people love to remind me of all the things that I could do all the time. People love to tell me what I could be doing and what I could be making and how I could be. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The problem is, baby, if you know that I knew it way before you, I chose something different. If you know all the things I can do, I swear, you are not giving Me any new information. I knew I could do all those things. I knew I could be this person. I knew I could create an empire. I know what I have going for me. I know what works for me. But I've never been one to want to climb to the top of somebody else's ladder. That ain't my ladder. And I don't like the view from up there. I want my view. I don't want somebody else's. You know what I mean? That's just how I feel about it. So, yeah, I chose this. And I feel so good about my choice, because I don't. It's everything I wanted. I didn't get pieces of what I wanted in this job. I got every thing I wanted out of work, out of. Out of doing work. So I'm gonna just keep doing it until I want something else.

[B]

What does it mean to you that you get to tell the stories of girls and women in Indiana specifically, like you were. I mean, you're writing for every magazine. That's the biggest magazine ever, unheard of, all over the place in Brooklyn and whatever. Like, I get the feeling that had you been given the Brooklyn equivalent job, it would have a very different. So what is it about telling girls and women Midwestern Hoosiers stories that is so important?

[C]

Indiana A has bad pr.

They do. They have bad priority. And Indiana, in addition to having bad pr, also has a culture of faux humble behavior that cultivates itself in a policing of each other's confidence levels or belief in themselves. There's very much a thing of.

A community charge to make sure nobody gets too big for their britches.

[B]

Oh, it's like a Southern situation.

[C]

This. This ain't nothing but Mississippi in the middle. Okay. Indiana is very, very, very, very red. And it is conservative. And it is stuck in its ways in a lot of ways. And I get where a lot of that comes from. I've grown up around these people my entire life. I've had these conversations. I know where it's coming from at its core. And a lot of it is just a lack of exposure. People don't see different things. It's easy to make up your mind about something you never interact with. And it's really easy to do this out here in isolated rural areas. It's easy to do in small towns with really strong conservative, religious, conservative control.

It's become worse with the proliferation of media because now those people don't have any contact with people who are different. And they also. What they do have are narratives constant24,7 Narratives about people who are different from who they are. So Brooklyn is not going to present. Brooklyn would have different challenges. You know what I mean? And it would have different goals here. The challenges that exist here are the challenges that I think affect people in the worst possible positions. And those are the people whose stories are told the least. Those are the people who are shared the least in terms of, like, when people talk about Hoosiers, who's around here, you know, they don't know who's around here. They don't know people are living like that, you know, because we would never say that. We would never tell that story about us. And, you know, when I came. When I moved back here and I was doing a lot of press for my book, because my book came out about, like, less than a year after I moved back, there are a lot of conversations I have where people ask me, you know, why did you move back? And I would always say stuff like, well, I have unfinished business with the state. You know, like, sounds like a threat. Exactly. And I wanted it to. I wanted to. I would say stuff like, you know, well, once I left Indiana, I found out so much about our history, like, about the literary history, the musical history. I had to leave the state to figure that stuff out.

[B]

I was like.

[C]

And it occurred to me that once I left, what a good reason for this state to deny that I was ever here, to never tell my story, to never share what my life was like here. And I said, I'm at the point where I really want to force this state to claim me. Like, I don't want them to have another option. I want them to understand that I was raised here. I went to school here. I went to college here. I saw it. I see it. I talk to everybody. I've been all over the state. You are not going to deny that. I understand what's happening here, because I'm not one of you. I'm more one of you than most of you who live here. Generations of my family are in the dirt here. I'm in the dirt here. So let's have a conversation about what that's like that you can't deny, you won't be able to dismiss, and you'll never be able to get rid of. I. In school, I was often called a. A really smart behavior problem. And that has not changed.

It's not different. I'm still a behavior problem, but I'm smarter now.

[D]

That's right.

[C]

So let's deal with that. You made me live with.

[A]

Ashley Ford.

Well, the most important question Is. Are. Are we gonna have our couch date?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This winter.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yes. Yes, absolutely. We're already making plans. I'll let you know.

[A]

Okay. We love you so much. Thank you. I love you this time.

[C]

My pleasure, Pod Squad.

[A]

I told you, if you have not read Somebody's Daughter, I don't know what the hell to say to you yet.

[B]

I feel so excited for them if they haven't yet. It's like never having had dark chocolate before. Never having had, you know, really good salt.

[A]

It's like. You're so lucky.

[C]

I wish I hadn't read it.

I want to read it again. You should.

[A]

It's really good, Ashley. You should. And it is. Well, I've talked about it a million times. I'm just saying that if you have. If you're a pod squatter and you haven't read Somebody's Daughter, just do yourself a favor and when you're done with this episode, order it. It's healing. It's. Well, it's everything Ashley's just been for the last hour. Ashley, we love you. Thank you and Podsquad. We'll see you next time. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us. We can do hard Things on Instagram, Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.