WE CAN DO HARD THINGS
Episode: Maybe We CAN Be Loved w/o Being Known: Ashley C. Ford
Host: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Date: December 11, 2025
Guest: Ashley C. Ford

Episode Overview

This heartfelt, vulnerable, and funny episode centers around deep questions of intimacy, relationships, and identity with acclaimed author Ashley C. Ford. The Pod Squad—Glennon, Abby, and Amanda—invite Ashley into a conversation inspired by a transformative holiday visit and explore what it means to truly be loved, how we seek to be known, and how our wounds shape our relational dynamics. The episode is a blend of lived wisdom, raw honesty, laughter, and the comforting sense of chosen family.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Connection Beyond Proximity and Holiday Traditions

• [02:30] Glennon shares how Ashley’s visits became a soothing tradition around the holidays, describing the healing presence Ashley brings:
  “You just fix everything for us.”
• The group laughs about family surprises (“Kelly is a boy!”) and the assumptions people make about Ashley’s relationship.

  Ashley [04:14]: "Not for random boys, they're not. They're not ready for that... I am not a lesbian. That happens to me all the time. Just all the time."

• They highlight how relationships can flourish without constant physical presence, a thread of “presence not bound by geography.”

2. The Concept of “Mind-spreading” & Communication Triggers

• [10:23] Ashley’s metaphor for assertiveness in intellectual spaces:

  Ashley [10:23]: "What if what you're doing is a form of mind spreading?... You're just walking up the stairs with your big mind, bossing everybody around, spilling outside your seat."

• She explores the tendency of wanting to control conversations intellectually—mirroring physical “manspreading”—and the tension between helping and dominating.

3. The Fear of Being Misunderstood

• [13:56] Ashley reveals the roots of her anxious pursuit for clarity in relationships:

  "I have a grave fear of being misunderstood and I have a grave fear of being misinterpreted... my knowing has not evolved into believing."

• The group unpacks how intellectualizing feelings and seeking excessive clarity can sometimes serve as self-protection, not merely curiosity.

4. The Loop Between Rationality and Emotional Overreaction

• [21:41] Amanda discusses the existential terror of not being understood, equating even small gaps in comprehension with profound loneliness:

  "It's like an existential threat of forever loneliness... Like, if you don't understand me in this micro thing, I'm just going to be here on this island forever."

• Ashley sympathizes, tracing her own sharp reactions to a childhood of being gaslit and blamed.

5. Relationship Dynamics: Seer and Speaker

• [30:47] Ashley shares how her marriage works:

  "If we had roles...I would be the speaker, but he would be the seer. He sees everything."

• She describes learning to let her husband’s insights land even when they're uncomfortable, recognizing "nobody has more experience of me than him."

6. Internal Negotiations & Working with “The Board”

• [38:19] Ashley details her approach to untangling internal conflicts by imagining her many competing inner voices as “the board,” with herself as the chair:

  "Everybody comes from their different perspectives...my job is to hear them out and then decide what's the best path forward."

• Rather than shutting down emotions (“being annoyed never helped me”), she practices listening and integrating these voices for honest communication.

7. Is Love the Same as Being Known?

• [41:33] Glennon questions whether being loved requires being fully known, given we often don’t know ourselves completely:

  "Is love not just being known? Is love being tended to? Being pursued? Nourished?"

• Ashley [42:56] reflects, "Part of my definition of love would be the pursuit of knowing a person… Love includes accountability. Love includes service. Love includes a certain amount of loyalty and attempts to understand."

8. The Solo Work of the “Basement”

• The metaphor of “the basement” emerges for periods of emotional darkness or internal struggle.

  Ashley [54:43]: "I am not lonely because people refuse to join me there. I am lonely because I have solo work to do in that space."

• Abby expresses sadness at not being able to “fix” Glennon’s basement time; Ashley gently affirms the necessity and dignity of solo struggle, and the role of partners as steady lights outside the pit.

9. The Macrocosm: Navigating the World’s Pain

• [65:40] Ashley discusses moving through harassment and trauma, surfacing into a world full of injustice and conflict.

  Ashley [67:55]: "What I had a lot more of was anger...I know exactly where I can point that anger. I know where my strengths are. I know how to fight the fights that I'm ready to fight."

• She affirms a legacy of perseverance:

  "My grandmother always said she never lost a fight in her entire life because she never stopped fighting until she won."

10. Celebrating New Purpose: Local Journalism

• [69:37] Ashley shares her new role as a women and girls reporter for Free Press Indiana/Indy Mirror:

  "You're telling me that you're going to send me around the state to talk to women and girls about what's hard in their lives and also what they're doing about it... That's a unicorn job."

• The group celebrates how this role unites Ashley’s strengths—mothering, community, place, and writing.

Memorable Quotes

• Ashley [13:56]: “I have a grave fear of being misunderstood and I have a grave fear of being misinterpreted.”
• Amanda [21:24]: “It’s like an existential threat of forever loneliness…”
• Ashley [38:19]: “All those voices in my head. That’s the board, right? But I’m the chair.”
• Ashley [54:43]: “I am not lonely because people refuse to join me there. I am lonely because I have solo work to do in that space.”
• Ashley [42:56]: “Love includes accountability…loyalty…and attempts to understand.”
• Ashley [67:55]: “I know exactly where I can point that anger. I know where my strengths are. I know how to fight the fights that I’m ready to fight.”
• Ashley [76:30]: “The miracle of grace is that you can get what you’ve never been given.”
• Ashley [79:31]: “Indiana…has a culture of faux humble behavior that cultivates itself in a policing of each other’s confidence levels…”

Notable Segments & Timestamps

• 02:30–08:41: Holiday tradition, the comfort of friendship, funny stories about Ashley's relationship
• 10:23–13:16: 'Mind-spreading' vs. helpful communication and self-inquiry
• 13:56–19:25: Origins of communication anxiety and emotional responses in relationships
• 21:24–30:47: Existential loneliness, parental wounding, the seer/speaker dynamic in marriage
• 38:19–41:33: Navigating inner conflicts—the “board” metaphor
• 41:33–44:47: Questioning the “love = being known” equation
• 54:43–57:48: The “basement” metaphor—on solo emotional work vs. relational rescue
• 65:40–69:13: Surviving harassment, anger at the world, and channeling that energy constructively
• 69:37–76:30: Ashley’s new job, joy in purpose, and community story-telling
• 79:31–83:52: Why telling Indiana women and girls’ stories matters; challenging state narratives

Tone & Atmosphere

• The conversation is warm, confessional, and often hilarious, marked by gentle teasing and genuine affection.
• There is a shared sense of striving for honesty (even when honesty is uncomfortable), a collective respect for pain as a teacher, and an insistence on hope and possibility—especially in the face of loneliness or adversity.

Final Thoughts

The episode is a masterclass in how intimacy, friendship, and self-examination weave together. Ashley C. Ford brings wisdom and humor as she explores the spaces between being known, being loved, and loving others—even when it’s imperfect or hard. The Pod Squad brings their own messy, honest questions, and the result is an hour of connection that feels like both a therapy session and a celebration.

For more on Ashley, the hosts recommend picking up her memoir “Somebody’s Daughter,” describing it as essential, healing, and beautifully written.