Natasha Rothwell (3:01)

Thank you. That means everything. I feel so seen. No, that means everything. And like I said before, like, back. Back and forth from the how to die lone writers room. You guys were like, yeah, brought me into every morning, and I tell everyone, and I Have a little. I do a vision board because I'm that girl and I have a we can do hard things little cutout on my vision board. It's just true. The love is real. It's real.

Host Amanda (3:35)

Wow.

Natasha Rothwell (3:37)

Okay.

Host Amanda (3:37)

Well, that's all I need for this week. And it's. And it's a freaking week.

Natasha Rothwell (3:42)

Natasha, girl, this week has been a year. My God. That's why I'm happy to be here. This is like. This is a warm hug. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Host Amanda (3:55)

So you must know that over the years, as I really just tried to figure out what was going on with you on screen, I started to, like, read a lot about you. So I would watch all your interviews or read your things to try to figure out what you know. But it was like one of those I'll have what she's having situation. So I try to find out what you're having and what I've done. What we've done for this time together is we've just grabbed a few little things that you've said and we want to read them to you. And then we want. They're just little, little things. Because I feel like you are actually a philosopher. I mean, I know you are. That you are kind of a philosopher. And the way you talk about the big questions of life in your art and in interviews is I just want that for the pod squad. I want them to just hear you talk about things. Okay. So the first one which I have memorized. I don't even have to look at my notes is something you said an interview a long time ago when I knew that we were soulmates. And you said the thing that confused you the most was to hear Ariel from the Little Mermaid say, I want to be where the people are. And you said, I do not want that to be where the people are.

Natasha Rothwell (5:13)

There's nothing I want less. I do not want to be where the people. I want to be where the people aren't. I want to be. I want to be in the underground bunker. I want to be away, far up in a tree. Yeah.

Host Amanda (5:28)

Yes. Where do you. If you had to finish that line, I want to be where the are.

Natasha Rothwell (5:34)

What would it be? Where the laughter is. I want to be where the. The. The. The. The. The nervous system regulation is. I want to be. I want to be where the rest is. I want to be where the cortisol is. Is zero. That's where I want to be. Yeah.

Host Amanda (5:55)

So America. That's good.

Natasha Rothwell (5:58)

America. Tick, tick, tick.

Host Amanda (6:01)

Yes. Yeah. I was thinking I want to be where the couches are.

Natasha Rothwell (6:04)

I want to be the pajamas, the edibles. Like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Host Amanda (6:11)

So do you for the Pod Squad, are you an introvert? Describe how you find peace and joy and connection if it's not in other people?

Natasha Rothwell (6:21)

I. The thing is I do, but I understand at my big age that there is a cost for engagement and I have to pay it. I don't know how to half ass, like connection or even conversation. So if I'm out at an event and there's a line of complete strangers, I will be with them and talk to them and give of myself in that moment. I don't know how to reserve that energy. So I just know that after those exchanges which light me up and give me purpose, I feel incredibly depleted. And I love to recharge solo with my dogs, just being with myself. And I do engage in social media, but that's a way where I can control the output and input of that energy and more so just turn off and be entertained. But I've just learned that of myself and I think for a long time I would get frustrated that I couldn't just, you know, bounce back so quickly or I would bounce back quickly at a cost. You know, it's just like insomnia or whatever else. But yeah, I definitely am an introvert in that sense. When I'm out, I'm out, but when I'm in, I need to be in in order to be out again.

Host Amanda (7:40)

Are there certain kinds of people. This is what my daughter and I were talking about the other night. Is there a certain type of person that you can be around that is recharging to you?

Natasha Rothwell (7:52)

Absolutely.

Host Amanda (7:52)

And are there certain types of people that you know are not. Are going to drain you faster?

Natasha Rothwell (7:58)

Yes. And usually those people in my life, like I can put them in those buckets of just like, can I be around this person? And sometimes it's not even that they are additive to my energy, they just are. It's neutralized. Like there's no expenditure. So I can just recharge myself and know that there's no kind of social, familial, fraternal obligation to like ask how someone's day, you know, like something as small as just like, hey, how are you? Sometimes I just don't care. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I'm like, I don't care if you're okay. Right. I just can't ask you that question. So it's definitely helpful for me to know who in my life and how much energy they cost. And so there's some friends, some family, that are expensive, and so I have to save up for them. And then there's some friends that do pour into me. But I do think just because I'm so wired to be anxious and stressful and care about other people so much that even the ones that are attempting to pour into me, I'm like, oh, my God, you must be exhausted. Do you need something to drink? How about a seat? You know, like, it is crazy compulsive. Like, I don't know how to not reciprocate in the moment and just receive that. So. Yeah. Did I mention I'm single? I wonder. There's something there.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (9:29)

Ooh, that's interesting, because as you were talking, I was thinking, I'm. First of all, would people be surprised who. When they're around you, like, if you're at a party, would they. Would they leave and be like, natasha is an extrovert. Like, is it? Is it. Are you one of those that presents. Because that's how I am. Everyone would think I was an extrovert, but I'm, like, debilitated after it, and then I have to recover. So is that true of you?

Natasha Rothwell (10:00)

Yeah. I feel like some people wouldn't know. But I do think as I've gotten older and more accustomed to advocating for my needs, I will sometimes announce, like, you know, my battery's running low, I'm gonna head out, or, like, whatever. But, like, in the moment, I enjoy, like, I enjoy people. I enjoy, like, hosting and, like, making sure everyone's good and taking care of people and laughing and having a good time. But I. I feel like there was definitely years, even decades of my life where people were just like, that extrovert. Natasha is just a hoot. And I'd be at home rocking in the shower, fully clothed. Like, what did I give away? Yeah. Yeah.

Host Amanda (10:48)

My idea of myself is that I love taking care of people's needs and being around people. Like, my best imagining of myself is surrounded by people. They're all over my house. They're at my table, near my couch. Like, every once in a while when I try it, I just hate it and want everyone to leave right away.

Natasha Rothwell (11:06)

Correct. I'm just. I. I go in thinking Florence Nightingale, and then I get there, and I'm like Kathy Bates in Misery. I'm like. I'm like, one of us will die in order for this to. To end. Well, I. Because I do think, like, the. It is like, whatever the saying is, the. The. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Like, my body is just, like, I just Can't. And I have really, really been trying to honor that limit. Like when I come up against that boundary and not push through it, you know, like there's this idea of martyrdom that I grew up with just because my, you know, grew up in the church. And so it's just like if it hurts me, must be great, you know, and it's not ever. So yeah, I'm getting used to, to backing myself when I bump up against the, the end of the battery.

Host Amanda (12:00)

Do you believe that? Because we, we were raised Catholic and by a football coach. So it was like Jesus on the cross and then additionally like keep your head down and hustle and no pain, no gain, no guts, no glory, all of the things. So double whammy. Football, Catholic, Hail Mary's everywhere.

Natasha Rothwell (12:19)

Hail Mary's all the way.

Host Amanda (12:23)

Do you believe that suffering is necessary? Like is that, do you think that's all bullshit? And if not, how do you know what's the right kind of heart and what's the wrong kind of heart?

Natasha Rothwell (12:32)

That's an incredible question. I don't think self imposed suffering is necessary. I think that suffering is built into life as we know it. And so I think understanding your own suffering I think is a catalyst for empathy because you can recognize it in other people. But I think so much of the ideology of the church that I grew up in and it's, you know, it wasn't football on the other side, but it was black church. And it's just like you think you had it hard kind of like idea where it's just like no, I guess I must go live harder lives, you know, like I guess. But yeah, I think that there was this idea of this self sacrifice being so noble and worthy and I think I saw it through several generations of matriarchs in my family especially and I think I'm so grateful that my siblings generation, like we put a stop to that sort of cyclical self splagellation of just like, you know, that isn't what makes us I think worthy. And I think sort of the insidious subtext of that kind of martyrdom is I have to earn whatever grace or rest that I need in this moment. I have to sort of log the hours of self sacrifice and then I can earn rest. And I thought that for the longest time, you know, even still I super struggle with days off because I'm like I need to be productive and it's taken a while for me to internalize that rest is productive and that, you know, it's not something to be Earned. It's a grace that we need to give to ourselves.

Host Amanda (14:35)

Yeah. And it's the point, like, I don't like when we talk about rest as it's the thing we do so that we can get back to work. You know, it's like, no, I think we just work a little bit so we can get back to rest. Yes.

Natasha Rothwell (14:50)

Right. That is truly the dream. Truly the dream. I was talking to someone the other day, and they're like, you know, what are your goals for the next five years? And I was like, a vacation, you know, like. And I heard myself say it and I was like, that's not right. You know, like, I shouldn't be putting rest or a break or a pause and kicking that can down the line. It's something that I could have today. And it's just having. Yeah. The courage to do it because I do think it's so internalized. It's like muscle memory that, like martyrdom and that kind of, like, work ethic of being, like, such a workhorse. But I'm getting, I mean, 20 plus years of therapy. I'm climbing, clawing my way out of that.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (15:32)

Yeah, it's beautiful too, because it is muscle memory. Because even the, like, vacation, it's like, okay, that is a defined space of time in which we have all agreed you are authorized to enjoy yourself. And so we understand that. But I think it's really hard, even when moments of ease are theoretically available, not to feel discomfort in them because of the talk track. That's like, oh, boy, it's been five minutes and what are you doing? You should be doing this. Like, have you been able to rework that muscle memory so you can actually experience the ease instead of, like, having that internal struggle all the time?

Natasha Rothwell (16:17)

Yeah, I think for me, the. The struggle will always be there. Right. And for me, therapy is just being able to recognize my thoughts more quickly over time. And I've gotten really good at recognizing when that tape starts and is telling me that, like, you. If you sit and take this rest or if you just, you know, turn on the TV and just like, go and let it go, like you're not worthy. Because it's deeply tied to worthiness. I think, especially for those that have, you know, gone through the church of just, like, having that sacrifice. And so I'll hear that tape start and then I challenge those thoughts because I think feelings aren't fact. And for a long time, I confuse that. And so if I was feeling like I wasn't worthy or didn't deserve this time off, that was the fact, and that was the truth. And I had to sort of pay sweat equity in order to earn rest. And so I'm better at challenging that muscle memory and those thoughts when they play. And it gets quieter, right? Like, the tape isn't loud. You know, it was super loud when I was younger, and it's still playing, but it's a little softer, and I can drown it out with, you know, Beyonce. So, like, there are ways that'll do it, right? There's worthiness there. So, yeah.

Host Amanda (17:28)

Yeah, it's weird. It's like a great trick of capitalism to take these, like, things that are birthrights. Like, there's only a few birthrights. Like, we should be able to rest. We should be able to eat. We should be. And to take them away and then trick us into thinking. I mean, it sounds like a version of diet culture, the way we're talking about rest. Like, you have to earn your.

Natasha Rothwell (17:52)

It's the commodification of, like, wellness and rest. And, like, the insidious part is the same system is making us sick. Do you know what I mean? So it's just like the arsonist firefighter of just like, let me make your. You spin out about how you're not enough, then here's things that you can do to make yourself enough. But just kidding, it'll never be enough. And then you're back on the wheel. It's exhausting.

Host Amanda (18:20)

What's the same with sex, too? You have to earn your sex.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (18:24)

You have your birthrights. No, but, like, when you're talking about your birthrights of your own ease and rest and food and sexuality. And then we come and get. All these messages are like, okay, well, here's the following 400 rules in which the sex will be okay, which screws up the sex for the rest of your life.

Natasha Rothwell (18:42)

Yeah. Crazy. And I think it's just like the. There's. There's a benefactor at the end of this. I think in the same way we think about capitalism and other ways that it expresses itself, like, just follow the money. You know what I mean? It's just like, there's so many people profiting off of our dis.

Host Amanda (18:58)

Ease.

Natasha Rothwell (18:58)

And I think that for me, it's been this slow, deliberate pause I've been trying to insert in my. Not just thinking when, you know, the tape starting starts to play, but just even checking in on, is this actually the medicine I need right now, or is it actually poisoning me? You know, like. And it's. It's. Yeah, it's it's wildly nuanced, but I think that slowing down in all of the ways is one way to sort of catch those moments where you're getting caught up in that. That pull of. Of capitalism to determine if you're hot enough, if you're sexy enough, if you're, you know, smart enough, all of the enoughness. Yeah.

Host Amanda (19:44)

Yep. Do you think I want to know what kind of rest you have found that is actually restorative to you? Because I think one of the trickiest things, and I can only. I'm speaking from my experience right now, is that what we've been trained to do now is that when we're feeling depleted or we can't do it anymore or whatever, we go on our phone. And for me, I was just thinking about last night. Like, I was in a pretty okay mood because I had been through the day of in America, which I'd already done all the highs and lows, and I was trying to do my breathing and I was in the bathtub taking my minute. And then I started scrolling. Now it's not just the doom scrolling for me. It's the I can feel okay about myself. I can feel like I did enough. I'm okay. I'm. Gosh darn it, people like me. And I have done my best. But then I get on the phone and Natasha, immediately I feel like, oh, my God, I didn't. I'm not doing enough. Those people are getting all the things I'm not relevant, like all the, like, immediately zero to 60. So it's like the thing that we're using to restore ourselves is actually what you described as. As more poison. That is what is actually helpful to you.

Natasha Rothwell (21:03)

It's different. It's different all the time. But there's some things that are consistent and they're not revolutionary. Crosswording, I love it. I do the New York Times crossword every day. It's so nerdy. Every answer that I get right is a little dopamine hit. I can hyper fixate on it. I do get on my phone and what I feel like whatever alien is running TikTok, it's curated to cookie decorating. I'm watching all of those videos. I'm watching Korean campers put up tents that are very bespoke. And it is just so random and strange, but it's just I can get into someone watching glass bottles fall down the stairs. And I'm like, yeah. And so part of it is giving myself permission to use social media to pacify me, but not just incite me which it does. And so I've tried to. Like, for instance, on my TikTok, I don't follow. I follow three. Three things. I follow my nephew, I follow Reese Atissa, and I follow my show how to Die Alone. But I don't follow people. So my curation is really based on what I'm stopping to view. And it's very like, Legos love it. So that's one way. I also, I enjoy being in water bath. I like just like. And you know what? I'm just gonna say it. Edibles. And here's why. I was not acquainted with the medicinal effects of THC until I came to California, where it's just like, you know, everywhere. And as someone who is neurodivergent in my mind, the speed with which it can go, it would put Sonic to shame. To take an edible doesn't reduce me to being incoherent. It allows me just to have a little bit of quiet. So to have that and sit and do a crossword puzzle. Delightful. I bought some Lego sets. So I've been doing that inspired by TikTok. So there is maybe a capitalistic bent to that rest. But yeah, sponsored.

Host Amanda (23:29)

This interview sponsored by Legos.

Natasha Rothwell (23:33)

But yeah.

Host Amanda (23:33)

Natasha, did you say you don't follow people? I think you may have. You said that very briefly, but I think you may have solved only on TikTok social media. Okay.

Natasha Rothwell (23:42)

On TikTok, it's just those. Those three. My nephew texted me. He's like, tasha, could you follow me? And I was like, I got you. I was like, I got you, boo boo. So and I also have like a social media manager that curates my posts. I don't even post, like, anything that's posted is her. I just turn it on like tv and I'm like, I wonder what cookies are in season. Are the Halloween cookies up? Let's watch some ghost cookies be made. Yeah.

Host Amanda (24:09)

Okay. So now I'm trying to wonder if this is part of the sunshine that comes out of you. Do you not read anything about you? Like, if your social media person is posting about you, do you not read the comments?

Natasha Rothwell (24:21)

No, I don't read. Like, the Instagram will alert me if a friend has commented and so I can engage. And they're usually like, you know, saying something wonderful. But when it comes to sort of like, I am not in. In the comments like that. No, I just like, I also, I think for me, I know I'm already predisposed to think negatively about myself, so I'm just like, I don't need no gas on the fire. So like, for me, I'm hunting for. I'm like, who liked it? You know, I'm like looking for the positivity and more often than not it's there, you know? Yeah.

Host Amanda (25:04)

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Co-host or Guest Amanda (25:11)

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Host Amanda (29:50)

You mentioned your neurodivergence. Can you talk to us about this? When did this come to you as a fact and how has it affected you? And what is.

Natasha Rothwell (30:01)

Came to me as a fact a year ago. A little over a year ago. I have known my whole life that I got different factory settings than my siblings and my peers and there was a lot of thought put into things that my siblings and peers didn't and I was just very hyper aware of. You know, I have extremely good pattern recognition which also is an offshoot of that neurodivergence and so I would be able to pick up quickly and sense changes and respond and react. And what brought me to it actually was TikTok. I was scrolling and there was a lot of people being late diagnosed adhd. And mind you, at this point, I was already diagnosed and medicated for anxiety and depression, which come to find out, a lot of people with ADHD have that. And so there was a lot of clues, but I leaned in when I was seeing so much of my experience being shown on TikTok. And so last summer I went and saw a neuropsychologist here in California who was wonderful. And I did, you know, the whole eight hour battery of tests to sort of figure it out. And she was just like, yeah, you got raging adhd, girl. I was like, really? Huh? And I just remember crying because it was this, like, it has a name. And with that name comes a community. And with that name comes understanding. And I've always been very. Just kind of insatiably curious about myself because I was always trying to figure out why I was different. And so this kind of discovery of adhd. And I was not on the autism spectrum or official autism diagnosis, but I do have a lot of autistic traits, which she was just like, a lot of the overlap between ADHD and autism, that's sort of where you're living. And so being able to know that about myself, I went from being ashamed of my inability to run the same race as everyone else to being an advocate for my needs. As I mentioned earlier, like, it was one of those things where something as small as my auditory processing as a part of adhd, I can miss a lot of things because I'm thinking about a lot of things. And so if I'm on set and a director's giving me verbal instructions, in the past, I would just, like, have anxiety and hope I got it. And now I'm like, you know, now I'm just like, can I see the note? Cause my visual sort of processing, it'll stick faster. Or can you repeat that? Or feel free to stop me if I got it wrong and not have shame when that happens. And so it's like little tiny things like that where I was just like, I'm slowly unmasking all the ways I have been masking my whole life. So it's been revolutionary.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (33:31)

Was there grief in knowing for your past self that didn't know?

Natasha Rothwell (33:37)

Yeah, I cried a lot last summer about it. Like, truly, because I was always in. I did really well academically. I was in all the AP classes, advanced classes and gifted classes. And I busted my ass and I remember just the effort that it took for me to keep pace because I knew I was smart, but it was just like, it's taken me a lot to, to meet the demands of these classes and the rigor. And had I had the diagnosis then I would have had more time for tests, I would have had accommodations and had a lot more grace with myself. And I think that, yeah, it definitely had a grieving process of forgiving myself for not. You guys are trying to make me cry. Forgiving myself for not knowing, you know, as much as there was no way I could have, or perhaps there was, but I just didn't. And so there's just. It's been healing in that way of just like saying it's okay, you did the best you could, you know, Is.

Host Amanda (35:01)

There any other side of it besides forgiveness that feels like you forgive yourself? Is there any side that's like, also, wow, I did all that without even with a different set of wiring or as you said, is there any. Holy shit. Way to go, kid.

Natasha Rothwell (35:19)

Yeah, absolutely. It feels very much like that was me running with a parachute. Holy shit. Like, yeah, that was also understanding that it is a superpower to think like I do. And one of the craziest parts of the process that was really illuminating. It wasn't even the diagnosis. One of the tests, it's talks about processing speed and it takes. You get like three weird symbols on one side and then you have a row of other weird symbols and you're timed and you have to identify if those three symbols are in that cluster of weird symbols. And I do that portion of the test during this eight hour day. And after I finished that one, the neuropsych was just like, were you always this fast? And of course, my immediate thought, just from Muslim, I was like, oh my God, did I do it wrong? Like, what? Like, oh my God. It was like fast and wrong. Like, what? And she goes, natasha, I've done this for 20 years and I've only graded this test up to page four. And she was like, you're up to page 10. I was like, so what does that mean? Like, I thought something literally was just like, so what do I have? Like, what is that?

Co-host or Guest Amanda (36:38)

What do I have? You have.

Natasha Rothwell (36:39)

Yeah. She was just like, no, you're just. She's like, your brain just works incredibly fast. And so a lot of the stuff you miss is because you just have to remind yourself to slow down a little bit. So it's a superpower. So it's like one of those things where it was just like, I'm very aware that it is a privilege to be able to get help and go to a neuropsych, but there's so many free resources available for people who are inquisitive about the way their mind works or have a sense that there's something special about them. And I think hopefully we can post that when this airs. Absolutely, yeah. So people can get started on that journey.

Host Amanda (37:23)

Humor me by. I must hear Natasha Rothwell talk about God. Okay, because. And I'm going to start in any way you feel like it. I always feel like it's just almost like a. For me, it changes every single day how I think and talk about God. But you said theater is a playground where I could do or be or explore all the things that weren't permitted in church. What?

Natasha Rothwell (37:55)

What? It's such a big question. And like you, I am discovering so many ways and so many different ways how God is expressed in my everyday life. I grew up in the church. And, you know, I use black church as an adjective. Like it's kind of, you know, it's black church. And there's a strong sense of right and wrong and permissibility and there's a lot of denial of self in that and conforming. And I felt for me, when I found theater, it was being able to have, quote, unquote, permission to see what I actually thought and through the lens of a character, which for me was my sort of work around on being able to, like, cuss and like, you know, well, I'm doing a play and I can do that and I can say shit, because it's not me. You know, like, very, very, very rudimentary thinking. But I loved theater for that reason. It was a way to escape. It was a way to project myself onto a protagonist. That's why I love film. And I think it was what I was meant to be doing with my life. Like I do to speak of spirituality. I do think I have been called in this life to be a storyteller and to uplift storytellers and to center marginalized voices. I feel that calling very strongly. And I think for me, my relationship to God has changed over time. You know, I think when I was super young, in my teens, I was really desperately trying to protect and hold onto the version of God that my parents was, you know, they. They believed in and held onto. And I just remember having this, you know, really interesting kind of radicalized moment in college. We had done Angels in America and I'd gone home and I'm. And my father and I, like, we. We don't argue, but we discuss. Like, we have very intense discussions. And I just went in on, you know, the. And I want. I. I don't think all Christians are this way, but many have very harmful, dangerous views on sexuality that. I was just. I had been radicalized by angels in America. And I just remember having this very deep conversation with my dad, and that was kind of like the God I believe in wants to love and protect and support and honor the LGBTQIA community. That's the God I'm choosing to believe in. So I was like, okay, there's this separation of ideology that made me really curious about, well, if I'm going to find God for myself and understand God for myself, I'm not going to renovate the house. I'm going from ground up. You know, I want to. I want to really know and believe what I think and not just regurgitate what I'd been taught my whole life. And it has been a beautiful, wonderful exploration of that. I still consider myself, you know, a woman of faith, but my God is so big and so loving and so inclusive, and that is, I think, what devastates me about the God of the. Right. Let's just call. Let's call it out. You know what I mean? Where it is this weaponized, anachronistic version of a white man that we're all, like, being subjugated to, you know? And so. But that's not the God I know. So it's so crazy to be living in this time where people who are purporting to believe in the beauty of what love is, and I do believe God is love, and yet they behave with such malice and such vitriol and create so much harm. It's just that, like, my. It's hard to reconcile that and. But I remain steadfast. I think that for me, yeah, it's just that that's. That's the God I believe in. Yeah.

Host Amanda (43:20)

I just thought of the title of this is for sure. But I remain steadfast.

Natasha Rothwell (43:24)

Remain steadfast.

Host Amanda (43:25)

I freaking love that.

Natasha Rothwell (43:27)

Yeah.

Host Amanda (43:28)

That's beautiful. When do you feel closest to God?

Natasha Rothwell (43:37)

I feel closest to God often when I'm improvising, if I'm being honest. Like, that is a state of flow where I just feel super connected into something greater. When I sing, I wouldn't call myself a singer, but I love to sing. I love to karaoke, but, like, even in the car, like, there's something very visceral. Just hearing my sound in my chest vibrate. That like, feels. I feel like I'm tapped into something bigger, even if it is Chaka Khan, you know what I'm saying? So, like, it's.

Host Amanda (44:16)

Especially if.

Natasha Rothwell (44:17)

Especially, especially if it's Shaka. But, yeah, I also think that I've been flirting. I've. I've flirted with meditation over the years. And I remember doing. I did this silent retreat. I'm going to do it again. This. It's this Buddhist silent retreat. No tech. It's very scary. It's wild. But I think in nature, when I look at the ocean, when I'm, you know, with trees, when I'm like, a good laugh, God is there. You know what I mean? Like, the kind where it's just like the mouths are open and you hear no noise because you're just laughing so hard. I'm like, yeah, that. To me, yeah. I feel God everywhere in those moments. Yeah. They don't have to be. I think I grew up and there was this sort of, you know, there was a protocol. You. You. Only God's in church. And it was just like. It's so weird. I'm like, so, no, that motherfucker's not just in church. He. Everywhere.

Host Amanda (45:20)

It's going back to the beginning of the conversation. It's another trick, like capitalism. It's like this thing that's your birthright. We are packaging up, taking away from you and then selling back to you. It's a little bit like the Mafia.

Natasha Rothwell (45:32)

It really is.

Host Amanda (45:32)

Like, we don't even know we have a problem. We think we're fine and in love. On the Earth, someone knocks on our door and says, actually, there's a hell. You're going to hell.

Natasha Rothwell (45:39)

You're going to hell. Here's the thing, get ready for this.

Host Amanda (45:43)

And I will protect you.

Natasha Rothwell (45:45)

It's very multi. It's wild. It's wild. And I think the moment that, you know, I found God for myself, the immediacy of that relationship compared to what it was before feels even more potent. Because it's like, oh, I don't have to, like, put on my church stockings and my, you know, little shoes, my Mary Janes that hurt my feet and, like, go into church and there, you know, there's God. It's like, no, when I was, like, I had a panic attack at the GLAAD Awards and God was there. Do you know what I mean? Like, the immediacy of that, of just like, oh, yeah. If I have a moment of anxiety or if I have, you know, someone dear to me is in pain or trouble, if I need to call on that or like summon that relationship and really feel like I am trusting and believing in something bigger than myself. That relationship is so internal and it's so present and it's so real and it's just devoid of all of the ceremony of religion. And I think that's the thing. I think religion and the performative aspects around a very sweet and beautiful relationship is sort of what I'm glad to have shed.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (47:11)

What is it about?

Sponsor Voice 1 (47:13)

It's beautiful creativity.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (47:15)

Because when you're talking about, when you're doing improv, you are connecting with a creativity that taps into something bigger, which I just heard you say, when you're talking about being outside in nature or being like, what is the part of being creative that has a through line through nature and God and laughing and that has. Allows you to tap.

Natasha Rothwell (47:46)

I think there's. It's kind of a. It is communing with something bigger than me and listening. That happens in improv. You're listening to those instincts and to, you know, very famously, you know, UCB in New York, their tagline is don't, you know. And obviously the idea there is to take yourself out of, you know, don't insert yourself in with the communication between something bigger and what's happening in the moment and just consider yourself the conduit and trusting that. And I think that what that communication is, that's not for me to decide. You know, I just need to be an open and a willing vessel. And I've been lucky enough to use my instrument for comedy. And there's a scripture that says laughter does the heart good like a medicine. And I do think there's a medicinal quality to laughter, especially. I gesture limply to the world, especially given all of the craziness that is going on. It's cathartic to laugh. It's a communal thing. And so I love that and I love, you know, using it, you know, dramatically and making people cry and feel things and see themselves and have that recognition. I feel like all of that is holy. Right. So there's this, like. I think it's just like, it's not one specific thing. I think it's being open and listening and allowing yourself to be used. And that is. That is. That is my church. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's what makes sense to me as someone of faith. And yeah, it's why I've been put here. So.

Host Amanda (49:49)

I'm semi obsessed with Jesus. Not like more guns, less gays.

Natasha Rothwell (49:54)

Right, right.

Host Amanda (49:55)

Like Palestinian activists.

Natasha Rothwell (49:56)

That's right. That's right.

Host Amanda (49:57)

This is right. Actually, I just have to tell you guys this. I just thought of this one second ago. So I was in a congressman's office a couple weeks ago just with a bunch of Palestinian activists actually begging him to sign block the bombs. Right. His name's David Min.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (50:20)

I was gonna say, are we not gonna name him?

Natasha Rothwell (50:22)

We're definitely gonna name him. Like, we gotta name him.

Host Amanda (50:26)

And one of the. My friends, Mohammed, showed David Min pictures. He has. He's a doctor, he's gone back and forth. So he was showing the congressman pictures of the babies that he had been trying to heal. And the bombs are bombs that had blown up these babies bodies. And he was showing the pictures and the congressman kind of, kind of looked and then he said, you know, I have gone to my Episcopalian priest to talk to him about what I should do about this. And then he went on to say he needed to pick his battles and whatever. But I kept thinking there, like, Jesus was an activist who was crucified for asking for a more beautiful and true world from the land of Palestine. You are ignoring the seven Jesuses around you. Yeah, we are. Christian nationalists are constantly crucifying Palestinian activists who are begging for a truer, more beautiful world in the name of a Palestinian activist who was crucified for begging for a true, more beautiful world.

Natasha Rothwell (51:40)

The irony, it's unbelievable how individuals who purport to be followers of Jesus and his teachings and the teaching of the church to not recognize in this moment with Palestine, the opportunity to show up and walk the walk and to do the work that he set out to do. And it boggles my mind that there are people in these positions to actually help and effect change. And they're so afraid of actually moving in a way that would lose them votes or lose them money. And like, there are all these things and they're putting that above what they're saying is the most important thing. It's so. It's just truly fucked. And it is. Yeah. I wish I could get to a place where it's not a constant shock and awe campaign every time I hear it, but every time I'm just like, like, how. How can you even sit in a service on Sunday and not recognize the opportunity for you to actually make the world a better place. It's. Yeah, I think that's what I mean when I say, like, for me, God is a relationship, not the religion. Because I do think there's such. Yeah, there's such theater in. Let me go talk to my priest. Let me go do that and like there's just miss me with that. Miss me. Like be so fucking for real. Do something. Actually I was like, do something.

Host Amanda (53:36)

Did you ask the priest? What would Jesus do? Why don't you just ask Jesus? Because there's seven of them at your table right now.

Natasha Rothwell (53:41)

Exactly.

Host Amanda (53:42)

Jesus is here.

Natasha Rothwell (53:44)

He's right here. Right here. News at 11. Do something. Sign the bill.

Host Amanda (53:48)

Yeah. And now it's time for our ads.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (53:57)

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Natasha Rothwell (55:33)

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Host Amanda (57:09)

Do you also think that there's something Jesusy about acting? Because I do. I just.

Natasha Rothwell (57:16)

I love.

Host Amanda (57:17)

Hear me out for a second. The whole story. Oh, oh, I can't hear.

Natasha Rothwell (57:23)

Oh, can you hear me? She dropped.

Host Amanda (57:25)

She got so excited about her acting.

Natasha Rothwell (57:28)

That she dropped things.

Host Amanda (57:29)

I thought God silenced me, which happens sometimes.

Natasha Rothwell (57:31)

I just want to say how much I love this conversation. Like, this is very rarely do I get to talk about my faith and oftentimes because off, that can be misconstrued as, like you said, guns, God, gays, kind of Christian. But like, you're so for real right now. I love it. This is my. I love this. So what's your story? Sorry.

Host Amanda (57:51)

Well, just hear me out. So the whole story is like spirit, collective consciousness being incarnated into a body. Like ghost, like shloop here, here, in a body, in a different body. And that's what actors do. Like when you're talking about improv as spirituality, I can't help but make the connection to you are ghosting, you are incarnating a different body and bringing your spirit to it. And doesn't. Isn't that the practice of empathy? And then everybody in the audience is doing a lesser version of vacating their own self and now living in your shoes. And so it's kind of a collective consciousness spreading of empathy for all of us, which is very God to Jesus information.

Natasha Rothwell (58:45)

Yes, that's church. That's church. That's the church I want to be a part of. You know, What I mean, like, there is something so powerful in theater, and I've done shows where I don't even remember. Like, I'm like, everyone's like, you did great. I was like, I don't remember. Because you're so tapped into, like you said, that collective consciousness, that collective spirit. And in your transformation, you're giving permission to the audience to transform, and you're all having this collective religious experience. Do you know what I mean?

Host Amanda (59:24)

I did.

Natasha Rothwell (59:24)

And it's like, sure, let's call it wicked. But, like, we all went somewhere. Do you know what I mean? Yes, we all went somewhere. I feel that way when I see, like, an amazing, like, band play and they're. You know, when they jam and I'm out of my body and they're out of their body. There's something so holy and spiritual about that exchange. And like you said, it is that empathy of that transactional empathy where I'm giving into the story that I've been given. I'm taking that on and I'm letting go of myself. And audiences, like you said, they let go of themselves. And we can just all be in this space where higher consciousness is communicating to all of us something valuable. And I think that's why I don't care how long I do this, I will always do live theater. Like, there's something so, like, television and film have an amazing way to do that, but it's just. You can't replicate that exact kind of church feeling when you're. Yeah. A good show and good music, all of that. It's transformative.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (60:31)

Is it the presence?

Host Amanda (60:33)

Is it the.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (60:34)

Is it the cause? Before, you were talking about, like, the urgency of the relationship and the immediate immediacy and the presence. And there's something that is. In a world where, like, we look out at the world and we see things, and then 90% of the world is telling us we don't see those things, that that's the thing that we see happening is not happening. And then you get in a space where you're having an undeniable immediate present.

Host Amanda (61:04)

Experience.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (61:07)

That is so. It's life affirming because you're like, there's one thing happening here.

Natasha Rothwell (61:14)

Yeah. It is powerful to experience emotion collectively. Collective grieving, collective laughter, collective, you know, sorrow. And it's like you said, it's like everyone has agreed to the rules. You know, the phones are off. We're all watching the same thing. It may touch us in many different ways, but we're not denying that this happened. And the thing, too, that's special about live theater is that that exact play and the way it was communicated that night will never happen again. And that, to me is like, how often in life now do we have those unique, undeniable moments where it's just like, if you weren't there, you weren't there. And I think that is power. That is, I don't know, pass the offering plate. That's my church. They should pass offering plates in the theater.

Host Amanda (62:21)

Yeah.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (62:21)

Oh, they would make so much. This is a good idea.

Natasha Rothwell (62:25)

I think I stumbled upon upon something.

Host Amanda (62:28)

You always do. Wow. I freaking love that. That's why it's like, it's not extra. It's not. I'm just begging the world to not abandon the arts right now, because it can feel like, well, we have to keep putting out fires, and so that's extra, and it's not extra.

Natasha Rothwell (62:49)

It's like it's the antidote.

Host Amanda (62:50)

The only thing that's real and collective, and it's the only place we're not living in an algorithm.

Natasha Rothwell (62:55)

That's right. It is. It is pure in that respect. And I think that, yeah, it. You know, everything going away with the PBS funding and arts in general, I think it's. It's what helps me because there can be this idea right in, especially for what I do, that, like, how is this helping? Right? We've all had those sort of existential crises where it's just like, how. Like, this is like, I'm working on the script, and it's just like this semicolon, doesn't matter, like, what's going on, but then it's like it's being reminded. Like, oh, no, this is a part of the synthesizing art and getting it out there to help people in the same way that we're talking about. And so there is such a need for it now more than ever. You know, we see this with, you know, the artistry in the live theater of Colbert and Kimmel. Like, the administration understands the power that happens when you create these moments of collective, you know, catharsis and spirituality. Like, that's potent and they recognize that. So, yeah, it's a scary time. But I think that, for me, it's just a signal to double down. For sure it is.

Host Amanda (64:18)

And it's a good clue. Like, if you're somebody who can't figure out what's important about life or being human, you must just look at what fascists go after. If you want to know what's important, watch what they go after and double down on that, because they Know what brings life.

Natasha Rothwell (64:36)

History. Yeah.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (64:38)

Empathy accounts, truthful accounts of things that happened is the, is the first thing they go after. That's why they're stripping. They want the, all the museums. That's why they're critical Race theory. That's why it's, it's because if what you're saying is the, like it's those things that you're talking about it, it's expressing yourself. It's like the, the power is the expression, expression of yourself in whatever form it is. And, and if folks can't express themselves creatively, comedically, historically scholarly, like sexually, then sexually, then the only expressions that are occurring are the expressions of authority, of sanctioned authority. And so it's anything that is self expressive is so spiritual and is also so dangerous.

Host Amanda (65:38)

Yeah.

Natasha Rothwell (65:38)

They can't commodify individuality. If we're all the same, if we're all limited in the same way, then they can figure out how to make money off of our compliance. And if we remain individualistic, if we remain autonomous, that's dangerous to them because it's reminding them that they do not have the power we do. So it's very, I mean it's a very good plan, you know. It's a very good plan. They've tried it before, you know. And so I think that's why for me, I will always use my platform to draw attention to exactly this and to continue to use the, I mean it is the Kabuki theater of the Hollywood entertainment industry. To me, the only way I can make sense of it is like every carpet I'm on, I'm talking about those causes and things that matter to me. I'm gonna continue to, you know, use my megaphone to remind us that we are autonomous, that we have a choice that we don't. We're not complying in advance. We are going to fight for.

Sponsor Voice 2 (66:59)

For.

Natasha Rothwell (66:59)

Our right to exist and to be happy. And it is going to be a fight. But I ain't tired. I'm ready.

Host Amanda (67:11)

Okay, that's another title. What, what does matter to you today? Like, I know I have studied you over the years well enough to know that there's a lot of things that matter to you. So that's why I'm asking just now what's most on your heart and mind in this moment?

Natasha Rothwell (67:33)

My heart is heavy. There's so much I, I, I think, I mean we spoke about Palestine and the horrors being perpetrated there. That is kind of constantly on my mind. I think also what has happened to Jimmy Kimmel is Very scary. And as someone in the creative and performing arts, as someone who will always speak truth to power, this really felt like the canary in the coal mine. Is that bitch dead? You know what I mean? Like, that's how it felt. And I think in times like these, it's. It can be really devastating because it's just like, well, what can't. I can't. I can't go higher and back. Like, what can I do? And I kind of always circled, you know, three things. It's, you know, do what you can, if you can, when you can, and if that's tweeting in opposition, if that's boycotting, if that's sending a letter of love to him and his family, of support, if it's speaking out, you know, at the dinner table. And there's always something to be done. So I think in these times, I try to remind myself of what agency I have. But, yeah, I think the very obvious, they didn't even try. Like, it's so out in the open, you know what I mean? It's like, so out in the open of their attack on free speech. It's an unapologetic attack on free speech. And so for me, we have to use that weapon of speech to combat it. And, yeah, I think that would be on my heart.

Host Amanda (69:50)

I think the connection between Palestine and then all the way to Jimmy is interesting because had we paid attention to the actual canaries in the coal mine, which were the kiddos who were organizing and the Palestinian activists here who were organizing, but everybody was cool with them being rounded up. They were the canary in the coal mine for us, for sure. We didn't pay attention because. And now you go very quickly from that to all the way to a very powerful man on tv.

Natasha Rothwell (70:21)

So for a straight CIS white man who is a multimillionaire on TV to be targeted and hurt, look in the rear view, there are a lot of bodies that don't look like that that paved the way, that could have been opportunities to change the course. And so, yeah, it's many, many, many dead canaries on that road for sure. But my hope is that we don't suffer anymore, you know, like we need to. The time to act is now. Yeah, it's past time. Yep.

Host Amanda (70:59)

And lastly, I just want to say this. We know the trouble. We know the trouble. But circling to art and to what keeps us alive, not as an extra thing we're doing, but as we're dipping into every damn day to remember what makes life worth fighting for. You know, that, oh, God, you guys, I'm thinking right now of who it is. I'll look it up. But that the man who was such a gay activist when the AIDS crisis was hitting, and he said, we bury our friends in the morning, we march in the afternoon. Okay, I'm gonna start crying. And we dance at night. That trifecta. We grieve, we work, we dance. We dance. Has to be the way.

Natasha Rothwell (71:50)

Has to be the way.

Host Amanda (71:52)

All of them, we can't ignore any of them or we will not have, because the dancing is what reminds us that all of this is worth working for and grieving for. So to get to the dance, is there any art recently, Natasha, that just surprised you? Whether it's a book or a show or a poem or anything that felt especially delightful or healing to you?

Natasha Rothwell (72:15)

First of all, I want to say that is. That is going. I'm getting that shit on a pillow today. That is who grieve. Fight dance. That is. That's real. And I will say, in addition to the dance being what we're fighting for, to me, it's such a giant fuck you. To those that wish to oppress and silence us, that you will not take my joy. You will not take my joy. And a little joy. For me, part of my neurodivergence just to bring it all together. Hyper fixation has been a theme in my life. And so it could be a meal that I'll just truly have every single day, or a song that I'll just listen to on repeat to the point that Spotify sends in help. You know, they're like, this is. This is too much. And for me, that song, there's this amazing London artist, Olivia Dean, and she has this song, Man, I Need, and it's like a boppy, kind of like, fun song that it is just. It just lights me up. And I'll have it on repeat. I'll like, scream. Sing it in the car. I'll have it on all the time. My poor dogs are just like, she's not okay. And I'm like, no, it'll be all right. But, yeah, it was just nice to. I've been a fan of hers for a long time, and this song was just kind of like a happy, hopeful kind of like. Yeah, so that's been bringing me a little bit of joy.

Host Amanda (74:09)

That's what I needed. Thank you. Just needed something to Google today.

Natasha Rothwell (74:13)

What about you? What are you both. What is your dance right now? What is lifting you up?

Host Amanda (74:19)

What is my dance? I mean, my baby girl is coming home as, like, an unexpected visit from her first year of college tonight. Yes. And so my entire family is going to be trapped with me for a couple days. And I. Abby and I promised each other that we. We swore to each other that for Saturday and Sunday we would turn off our phones and not react. Just for two days. And I'm so excited for that, Natasha.

Natasha Rothwell (74:47)

I love that so much.

Host Amanda (74:48)

Amanda, do you have any? Anything?

Co-host or Guest Amanda (74:50)

My current lifeline. My current lifeline is Padrig Otum. He is an Irish.

Natasha Rothwell (75:02)

Writer.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (75:03)

You can't describe him. He is a poet and theologian and a memoirist. And he's queer. And he. He like, he. I'm obsessed with Ireland and Irish politics and all the things. He brings, like, all of my favorite things into one story where he calls it narrative theology. So he is telling the story that this most recent book is called in the Shelter. It's from this Irish proverb that's. It's in the shelter of each other that the people live. And it. He is telling the story of his faith through growing up as a queer Irish kid during the troubles who wanted to be a priest, who. And then like telling the whole story of the divisions of Ireland and the British Empire's oppression and colonialism and. But all through, like this gorgeous prose. And so I have listened to his book literally three times in a row. As soon as I stop it, I just started again because it's just feeding me and comforting me in this way that I like.

Natasha Rothwell (76:36)

It's like scratching a brain itch of just like all the things that light you up. Yes. Yeah, I love that. And the Irish accent before we go also.

Host Amanda (76:48)

Oh, the Irish accent.

Natasha Rothwell (76:49)

I mean, forget it.

Host Amanda (76:50)

Forget it.

Co-host or Guest Amanda (76:51)

It's a really good thing he's gay, right?

Natasha Rothwell (76:53)

To Dublin we go.

Host Amanda (76:55)

To Dublin we go.

Natasha Rothwell (76:58)

The cliffs of more of you. Yeah, exactly. We love it.

Host Amanda (77:03)

Natasha, my final question and then I really will let you go is will you be our best friend?

Natasha Rothwell (77:09)

Yes. I've been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm serious. I have been lit up by this conversation. I think it just. It's why I was such a fan of the show. You guys were so thoughtful and you're so my people. You're so like. You think about the world in the same way I do, and it is just a dream to be on. You are so lovely, so wonderful. Yeah. I want to be the third Doyle sister. So she's saying she'll hyper fix our title. That's all I want. I want to be up in there. I want to be up in there. Oh, no. You guys are so everything. Everything.

Host Amanda (77:55)

Thank you. Natasha, please, if you ever want or need or any. If you just. Just. I'm here and we're here and we're so grateful for you existing in the world.

Natasha Rothwell (78:05)

Tell Abby to add me to her New York Times puzzler friend list.

Host Amanda (78:11)

I don't know what that is, but I will tell her.

Natasha Rothwell (78:14)

Yeah. I love it. I love it. She'll know.

Host Amanda (78:18)

Pod Squad, we love you. Go forth and grieve. Work.

Natasha Rothwell (78:25)

Dance, dance.

Host Amanda (78:27)

See you next time.

Natasha Rothwell (78:28)

Bye. Oh, my God. I love you so much. I love you so much, you guys. That was everything I dreamed of. Times 20 we did all the Things.

Host Amanda (78:45)

We Can Do. Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.