On Not Being Chosen, Re-Parenting Yourself & Getting Started | Live on Tour!

Summary

Podcast Summary: "We Can Do Hard Things" Episode: On Not Being Chosen, Re-Parenting Yourself & Getting Started | Live on Tour! Release Date: July 17, 2025

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Introduction and Live Tour Context

In this special live episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosted by Glennon Doyle alongside her sister Amanda Doyle and wife Abby Wambach, the trio broadcasts from Portland, Oregon. This marks one of the ten cities on their inaugural tour celebrating their New York Times bestselling book, We Can Do Hard Things. The live event gathered thousands of listeners, emphasizing themes of connection and community in the face of daily struggles.

Key Themes Discussed

1. The Ache of Not Being Chosen

   The episode delves deep into the emotional pain associated with feeling excluded or unchosen in various aspects of life, including relationships and personal endeavors.

   • Amanda Doyle shares her personal experience:
     “But it's so hard. It's so hard and it's so heartbreaking. And I don't think it ever goes away because you can’t stop feeling it.” [07:27]

2. Grief of Lost Teams and Families

   Amanda, a former soccer player turned referee, discusses the profound grief of leaving her team—a surrogate family—and the subsequent loss of her own family structure. She reflects on the challenges of finding a new sense of belonging and the impact of these losses on her identity.

   • Quote:
     “I don't miss playing the game. I miss the people. I miss the feeling of belonging.” [11:10]

3. Re-Parenting Yourself

   The conversation explores the concept of self-parenting, where individuals nurture and care for themselves in the absence of external support. This involves embracing self-love and healing from past wounds.

   • Amanda Doyle encourages radical self-care:
     “Try to fall so deeply in love with yourself right now.” [08:12]

   • Kara's Insight:
     “A big part of being an adult is just constantly reminding yourself and your nervous system that you're an adult and you're safe now.” [23:38]

4. Fear of Starting Something You May Never Finish

   Addressing the paralytic fear that prevents individuals from embarking on new ventures due to doubts about their ability to see them through, especially in the face of mortality.

   • Kara responds to Brandy's fear of dying young:
     “If you are a person who thinks that you need to write a book, then I can promise you that you need to write a book.” [30:28]

5. Courage to Lead Hard Conversations

   The hosts discuss the importance of initiating and navigating difficult dialogues, particularly around topics like anti-racism and personal trauma, without succumbing to shame or fear.

   • Elena's Question:
     “How do we mother ourselves? How do we mother each other?” [20:21]

   • Response:
     “Remember that shame is not a tool of social justice, it's a tool of oppression.” [33:25]

Audience Engagement and Questions

1. Kara's Contribution:

   Kara shares a heartfelt story about her personal loss and how the book We Can Do Hard Things provided solace during a difficult period. She inquires about parts of the book that serve as particular medicine in the hosts' lives.

   • Kara's Question:
     “Are there any parts of the book right now that speak to you that are of particular medicine to you right now in your lives?” [05:00]

2. Elena's Inquiry on Self-Mothering:

   Elena poses a profound question on how to nurture oneself in the absence of traditional maternal support, seeking guidance on self-care and mutual support.

   • Elena's Question:
     “How do we mother ourselves? How do we mother each other?” [20:21]

3. Brandy's Fear of Mortality:

   Brandy expresses her fear of dying young and seeks advice on overcoming this barrier to pursue her memoir.

   • Brandy's Question:
     “I'm afraid I'm going to die young, that I'm not going to be around, that if I start it, I won't be able to finish it.” [27:23]

4. Anti-Racist Conversations and Overcoming Shame:

   A listener named Bernie seeks advice on leading anti-racist work and normalizing these conversations without inducing shame.

   • Bernie's Question:
     “How to normalize these conversations amongst my friends and get past that shame to have these conversations.” [32:15]

Inspirational Insights and Advice

• Amanda Doyle emphasizes the power of community and finding connections that foster a sense of belonging:
  “Keep trying to find your people, no matter what arena you're in.” [12:10]

• Kara highlights the importance of consistent effort and personal commitment toward goals:
  “Decide how many hours you're gonna suffer a day. And they’re gonna be in the chair each day.” [30:29]

• Elena reflects on the necessity of allowing oneself to feel and process grief without avoidance, advocating for embracing emotions as a path to healing.

Community and Acknowledgments

Towards the end of the episode, the hosts express gratitude to their team members who contributed to the book’s success, acknowledging their illustrations and creative efforts. Special mentions are made to Val, Annie, and Rachel for their instrumental roles.

• Amanda Doyle:
  “These three, two of whom live in Portland, literally all the illustrations in this book.” [50:10]

Closing Remarks and Musical Performance

The episode concludes with heartfelt thanks to the Portland audience and live performances by Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile, encapsulating the episode’s themes of resilience and collective strength through music. The closing song, "We Can Do Hard Things," reinforces the overarching message of the podcast.

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Notable Quotes:

• “You have to decide whether it's one, two, or three hours. And that your butt is going to be in the chair each day.” – Kara [30:28]

• “When you have a sensitive kid with a lot of feelings and thoughts, you must get them into art. It saved her.” – Kara [44:16]

• “Shame is not a tool of social justice, it's a tool of oppression.” – Brandi Carlile [33:05]

• “I am inherently worthy of that love. And I don't have to. I should not have to hustle and perform for love.” – Unnamed Speaker [21:16]

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Conclusion

This episode of We Can Do Hard Things masterfully intertwines personal narratives with universal struggles, offering listeners a blend of empathy, practical advice, and inspiration. The live format amplifies the sense of community, reinforcing the podcast's mission to help individuals navigate life's challenges with courage and authenticity.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are bringing you a very special episode live from Portland, Oregon, one of the 10 cities on our first ever tour together. Glenn and Amanda and me and Tish. It was so fun. My God. We gathered with thousands of you to celebrate our indie and New York Times bestselling book We Can Do Hard Things. Tish was on stage. Our team was there. And get excited because there is a special guest who was in the room that night.

[Kara]

That was wild.

[Glennon Doyle]

It would be nearly impossible to express what it meant to being together with you in person. We decided to share a taste of that magic here and if you love this one, we'll be bringing More of these moments in the weeks ahead.

[Tish Melton]

The We Can Do Hard Things tour was about connection and community. It was about holding onto our humanity together by not letting go of what makes life beautiful. We were so honored to partner with the Florence Project and the Acacia center for justice and the the entire network of orgs all over the country supporting immigrant families who are fighting for their lives and their humanity. All of our tour proceeds went to this life saving work. We did that together. All of you, thank you. We invite you. No, we beg you to find and support the heroes in your own city doing this vital work every day to protect our neighbors. And for more info on those orgs, you can go to protect the [e-mail] and find the heroes in your community. We loved our time in Portland. We did not want to leave. This magical night opens while you'll hear with a question from Kara. And from there we just spent the evening talking about the ache of not being chosen, the grief of lost teams and families, the power of parenting yourself, the fear of starting something you may never finish, and the courage to lead hard conversations in your own circles. We laughed, we cried, we sang. We love you, Portland. Our hearts are still full. Thank you for showing up for this book, for this community, for each other. Has it ever been more important to do that? We love doing life with you. Let's go.

[Amanda]

We can start your question here.

[Abby]

Oh, me first?

[Elena]

Yes, you first. So scary.

[Abby]

Okay.

[Kara]

My name is Kara. Hi, Kara.

[Abby]

Amanda. Sister. You shared a story in the book where you talked about being at an airport and finding yourself at a crossroads. But the day after your book came out, May 7, the love of my life found herself at a crossroads that was very similar. It was beautiful. Both roads were beautiful. And she chose the world that didn't include me. You have to know, the three of you have to know the potent medicine that your book has been to me over the last nine days. It's been incredible. It's been the warmest blanket of comfort that's let me stay soft and open and to see the beauty and the wisdom in her decision. My question to you is this book is magical in that there are going to be moments in our lives where different parts of the book speak to us in different ways. And I'm just curious if there are any parts of the book right now that speak to you that are of particular medicine to you right now in your lives.

[Kara]

You are beautiful, Kara. Really, thank you for that.

[Unknown]

It's wild because the story I was telling in the book that you're referring to Kara, is when I made a decision to leave a path that I really loved in order to come home and marry John, my husband.

[Kara]

And.

[Unknown]

Just about how we think when you're grieving something, when you have two paths and you take one and then you feel a lot of grief, you think it means you took the wrong path. But actually choosing anything you love means foregoing and forsaking something else that you love often. And that's why we tend to not make choices, because it sucks so bad either way that we're like, I'll just stay right here on this part of the path and never go down either. And I just don't think that's way life works. But as you're saying that that happened with me, with my first husband, and I can see from his choices that that is what he needed to do. And you're a lot more graceful than.

[Kara]

I am because I've just come around to that, like seven years after the fact.

[Unknown]

But it's so hard. It's so hard and it's so heartbreaking. And I don't think it ever goes away because you can. To not be chosen. That doesn't stop hurting. It still doesn't. It still hurts me now, you know? And so it's beautiful that you're going through it the way you are. And I'm. I'm sorry. And I'm happy for you because there is a path ahead for you, too.

[Amanda]

Can I get a hands up for all the people who have not been chosen in this room? Here we are. And I only say that because your pain is specific and real and true. And now that I have found somebody who chose me, I have only now been able to understand that part of the pain that I was experiencing and being rejected and not being chosen is that I didn't have enough love and respect for myself. There was this gaping missing piece to me that I needed to recover, that I needed to figure out. And I don't know if that rings true for you, but try to fall so fucking deeply in love with yourself right now. Just do that. And it sounds like you're doing this with such grace and beauty and compassion for this person, more than I probably would have. But I'm kind of mad at this person right now. I don't even know them, but yeah, just take like radical self care, radical self love, like whatever you can. I've actually just recently fallen in love with myself. Just recently. Kind of like feeling myself all of a sudden. I know, it's so weird. I said that out loud in front of a thousand people.

[Kara]

Anyways, thank you for that.

[Amanda]

Yeah, thank you so much. Well, let's go up top to the person with the tie on. Hey, Abby.

[Kara]

Hi.

[Amanda]

Former soccer player, 23 years goalkeeper. I was so grief stricken when I had to leave my foot doctor said, you'll never walk again if you keep kicking the ball in the same spot over and over again, Right? Yeah. And indoors, outdoor. I gave it all up. I'm a referee now. It's not quite the same. I get to see the same folks. But at the end of the game, I walk off by myself. And Glennon's book came along when my wife left me. I'm in love with a beautiful woman up there. It's a two part question. I want to know how to go over the grief of losing that team environment that are your family, and then how to get over the grief of losing the intact family. Wow.

[Kara]

Oh my God. Portland. Shit.

[Amanda]

Portland is coming for us.

[Kara]

So beautiful.

[Amanda]

I'll just answer the table. Team won because that might be most relevant.

[Kara]

I don't know that answer.

[Amanda]

3. I could feel it.

[Kara]

If you want a broken family, though, I got that.

[Amanda]

People ask me all the time if I miss playing soccer. And the unequivocally, like, easiest, quickest answer is like, no. I did it for 30 years. So I don't miss playing the game. I miss the people. I miss the feeling of belonging. I miss the feeling of like energy, of badassery, of just shenanigans. Like the weird stuff that happens in locker rooms. I'm trying to replicate that on the road. It's not happening. Not going well.

[Kara]

We're not fit.

[Amanda]

Maybe it's not happening the same way that it did back then. Little different. And I think something that I've also.

[Kara]

I've never even been in a locker room, like ever in my life. I don't know what to do there.

[Amanda]

Get changed and you hang out with your teammates and friends.

[Kara]

That's what I've seen on tv.

[Amanda]

I think something that I've learned in the last couple years about grief, it's this idea that we're trying to not feel it. And instead of not necessarily avoiding it or not wanting to feel the loneliness or the longing for this thing you once had.

[Unknown]

I don't know.

[Amanda]

There's a part of me that's like. I think the feeling it, like the feeling of that is okay. I do, I think feeling sad and broken and heartbroken over missing and longing for something that you might not have right this second is okay. It's like, expanding our capabilities in a way. Now. We can't stay in that state forever. So what do we do about it? For me, I go to the gym every single morning. And PS, I hate working out. Anybody else hate working out. I was really good at it for a long time, but I tell you, I hate it. And I never want to go, but I go because there's this little community. And, like, Glennon knows this. It drives her crazy. But everywhere I go into, like, every restaurant I go into, like, I know the people I'm, like, talking to, the people I'm trying to find. I'm, like, in search of belonging, the way that I felt in these locker rooms everywhere I go. And I think that that's, like, kind of a superpower of mine in a weird way. Not to be braggadocious about it, but, like, I really think that, like, not everybody is like us in that way. And so keep trying to find your people, no matter what arena you're in, what locker room you're in, what restaurant you're in. Like, sometimes I have better conversations. Seriously, no offense. I have better conversations with somebody I'm just shooting the stupid shit with.

[Kara]

Oh, you so bad. Just want to shoot the shit. I'm so sorry.

[Amanda]

I wanna shoot the shit. I don't wanna talk about the hardest things in the whole wide world all the time. I don't.

[Kara]

Oh, that's what we're doing wrong.

[Amanda]

Well, that's all I got. Why don't you get their phone numbers? You're not, like, intergenerational trauma. I love you.

[Kara]

I know you.

[Amanda]

And I love our conversations. I am a lesbian, so. Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

And.

[Amanda]

Yeah, let's shoot the shit some more.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

You want to take the other part of the question?

[Kara]

Well, I'm just thinking about how it's kind of the same thing, like, you lost the team and then you lost your little team, or you feel like you did, and that must be really, really hard. I have a feeling, just based on you and the way you ask that question, that your family's going to be fine.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Kara]

I think it's because of your openness and your vulnerability. Just makes me feel like you're probably a really trustworthy parent. I can tell you that I've really. I feel that it is deeply true for me that I know a lot of families that are in their original configuration that are really broken. And I know a lot of families that have changed their configuration and feel so vibrant and so whole to me. And I don't think that any family's wholeness or health has to do with whatever structure they've decided. I think a whole family is any family where each person in that family gets to bring their whole self to the table and that's it. So I think your little team is going to be okay, because I can tell by the way you just brought yourself to that question that you're the kind of person that fosters people being able to bring their full self. So I think your babies are going to be okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda]

Okay, let's do another couple of questions. Yes?

[Elena]

Thank you so much. I'm Elena.

[Kara]

Hi, Elena.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

I'm 33. Y' all have been in my ears on my walks for so many years, and I can't tell you how fucking grateful I am.

[Kara]

Aw.

[Elena]

But speaking of generational trauma.

[Brandi Carlile]

I, like.

[Elena]

Many in this room, have a mother.

[Kara]

Raise your hand if you haven't had a mother.

[Elena]

And she is beautiful, incredible, loves me so much, and couldn't mother me in the way that so many of us hope for. Yeah, and you all have mothered me in ways I can never explain. But my question is, how do we mother ourselves? How do we mother each other?

[Abby]

How do we do that?

[Elena]

I just want to know.

[Kara]

What a gorgeous question.

[Unknown]

That's a beautiful question.

[Kara]

You got any ideas, Sissy?

[Unknown]

I mean, do you have any children, or do you want them?

[Kara]

I don't have.

[Unknown]

Okay. It might hinge on this question.

[Kara]

Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

[Unknown]

I mean, for me, I learned to mother myself through my kids. Like I think when I see them. I mean, they're a giant pain in the ass for sure. And yet when I see them and I just see how absurdly worthy of love they are, my brain can calculate their worthiness of love and grace and joy and peace in a way that I would have never thought could translate to me. I want every good thing for them. There's never an equivocation about whether they deserve it or whether at the core of them, they're so very good. And I didn't know that. I didn't believe that about myself until I saw it so clearly with them. And I thought, oh, this. This was true for me, too. Like, the natural love and worthiness that I see in them also existed in me and still does. And so, for me, it's such a simple thing, but until you're confronted with it like that, it took that for me to understand that I am inherently worthy of that love. And I don't have to. I should not have to. Not that I don't have to, theoretically, should not have to hustle and. And perform for love. The way that I understood I had to growing up. Because if they don't have to, neither did I. And so that I practice that with my kids, I literally try to transfer it. Like when I have a huge overflowing of love with them, I'm like, me too, me too. And that helps heal me. I think that piece of it.

[Kara]

Yeah. I think a big part of being an adult is just constantly reminding yourself and your nervous system that you're an adult and you're safe now. Right? Isn't it? That is what I mean. This round of recovery for me is, I think, the first time I've ever really done recovery. I think every other time I've kept it very cerebral. I've been able to blame in general. My idea was I have an eating disorder because of the patriarchy. And that's true. Ish. But this round, I've been doing family of origin stuff. I've really been allowing myself to go back to when I was little and to understand why a little girl would become feel so afraid that she would have to only live in her mind, only live in books and control everything through food. You know, as a kid, I was in a family with a lot of love and with a lot of anger and a lot of hype. Complicity in that anger that might sound familiar to some of you, I've heard I'm not the only one with that situation. But, you know, I didn't ever feel like I was in a safe environment to have big feelings, to have an appetite, to grow, to be big in any way, really. And so it makes sense that now every time I get scared, like this last relapse for me came right after the election when I start to feel afraid, my little girl self says, oh, we know how to handle this. Just shut it down. You know, it's like you're a wild animal and you protect yourself from being prey by what? You don't sleep, you don't eat. You just stay vigilant. You just stay vigilant. So for me, part of mothering myself now is to remind myself over and over again that I am an adult now. The rules are not the same. That it is okay now for me to rest, that it is okay for me to eat, that it is okay for me to be big and loud and grow, because I am. There's an adult in the room now, and it's me. Every time I relapse, it's because I have gone a little bit unconscious and I have let my little girl self start driving again and she Only knows one thing to do to keep me safe. And what responsible adults do is they don't let the child drive. Right? They love the child. They offer the child, you know, understanding for their fear and their small ideas, and they offer wiser ideas. And then they put. Put the child in the back seat where the child belongs. And they say, I've got this now. So that is what recovery is for me. Now it's just putting the little girl. And that's what mothering myself is. There's a mother in the room now, and it's me. And so I can let my little girl self do what she needs to do, which is rest in the back seat and just trust that somebody's got the wheel. That was pretty good.

[Amanda]

That was really good.

[Kara]

Never said that before, but that was right.

[Amanda]

That was very good.

[Kara]

Yeah. So we call Elena. There is someone in the driver's seat now, and it's you, so your little girl self can rest.

[Amanda]

Okay, let's go up top now.

[Elena]

Hi, my name is Brandy, and thank you guys for being here. My bestie, Danny and I have been listening since the very first episode.

[Amanda]

Hi. Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Glennon just waved at me. So, in an opportunity of sharing space with one of my favorite authors, my writing mentor would kick me if I did not ask this question. And, Abby, you brought this up when you said you have a fear of dying. My mom died when she was 36. I was 15, almost 16. And I have this dream of writing a memoir. And part of the fear that my therapist and I are working through, in addition to IFS and generational trauma and all those things, one of the fears that we've uncovered is that I'm afraid. I have this fear in the back of my mind that I'm going to die young, that I'm not going to be around, that if I start it, I won't be able to. To finish it. And I would just love advice from you three as authors and as amazing gems of warriors of women that are leading us all as far as, like, how to break that barrier down.

[Kara]

Well, it makes sense that you would be worried that you won't finish it, but you definitely won't finish it.

[Amanda]

If you don't start it, you don't start it. Yeah, that's true. But, like, everybody doesn't finish it. You know, like, it's not like, that's so common. It is hard to do. It really is. But you can't let this one fear because you don't know you could live until you're 95. You know, sorry I interrupted you.

[Kara]

I have a little index card next to my computer that has one sentence on it. From. It was a quote from a woman who I think is one of the best writers on the planet, who is in this room named Cheryl Strayed.

[Amanda]

Cheryl Stray, who is also from Portland.

[Unknown]

And it says.

[Kara]

How it feels to write a book is that it is impossible to write a book. That is how it feels. And that's. I have that next to my computer. Another. Well, okay, here's what I think. Whenever someone says to me, like, I think a lot each day about whether I have a drinking problem, but I'm not sure about it. I'm like, okay, you know who. Who doesn't wonder every day if they have a drinking problem? People who don't have a drinking problem. Right. So, like, if you're thinking about it each day, then yeah. So I also. Everyone doesn't feel like they need to write a book.

[Amanda]

Oh, that's good.

[Kara]

If you are a person who thinks that you need to write a book, then I can promise you that you need to write a book. And nobody writes a book. All they do is they sit their ass in a chair for, like, they decide how many hours they're gonna suffer a day. And they.

[Amanda]

It's so true.

[Kara]

It's awful. It's the worst. And if you can do anything else, you should do it. But if it nags you each day, then that means that you are a writer and you must write the book. And that means that you must. You owe it to yourself to decide whether it's one, two, or three hours. It can't be more than that. And that your butt is going to be in the chair each day. And that. That's a deal you're going to make with yourself. And you're not going to worry about when it's done or how it's done. All you're going to worry about is that your butt will be in the chair for two hours a day, and you will be. So you will see, it will just suddenly start to happen over time and you'll have your book. So you're to going. Are you going to promise us all right now that you.

[Amanda]

Let's go. I love accountability.

[Kara]

And if you want to know how to write a memoir, just effing read wild again. Everybody's already ready.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go down here. Let's go to the back a little bit. Yes. You jumping? I like the jumper.

[Kara]

I like the jumper.

[Abby]

You said my.

[Elena]

My enthusiasm worked.

[Amanda]

What she say?

[Kara]

My enthusiasm worked.

[Amanda]

Oh, yeah. I'm.

[Elena]

See, I'm a seven, so my name is Bernie. Fellow lesbian.

[Kara]

A fellow lesbian is a funny thing to say.

[Amanda]

So, you know, I get it.

[Kara]

Okay.

[Abby]

If it works.

[Elena]

So as Dr. Brene Brown says, shame is not a tool of social justice, it's a tool of oppression. And so as this country is shifting and there's a lot of activism going on, a lot of protests, I really want to become a leader of the conversation on anti racist work, both in the bigger aspect of my community and also among friends. And so I was wondering how to normalize these conversations amongst my friends and get past that shame to have these conversations.

[Kara]

Beautiful. So is it shame or is it fear? Like, I think starting those kinds of conversations with friends and in big groups is, for me, it's more fear based. What is the shame?

[Amanda]

You can just yell it.

[Kara]

Do you mean not shaming other people? You mean not shaming? Oh, I don't know how to do that.

[Amanda]

Ask an easier question than that. Yeah. Do you mean not shaming other people? No.

[Elena]

I want people to get past their own shame.

[Amanda]

Their own shame.

[Kara]

Okay. Okay. All right. That's.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Kara]

Okay. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Well, what I would say just off the bat is that there are brilliant, brilliant racial justice leaders and thinkers everywhere who have been doing, I'm sure, in this community who are like, who have been doing this kind of work and who know these things that you're talking about. And I think one of the. When we're moved in these moments, which is that's glorious, important work that needs to be done and you should do it, and you should find someone in this community who has been working for a long time in that lane to guide you.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Because we don't have to make up anything. We have to bring our gifts to a movement. But a movement only moves because people are doing it together. And so I would say your first step is to plug in, find people who do this with their lives and learn from them and do what they say.

[Kara]

I love that you want to do that. Thank God. I mean, right now it's just amazing how it felt so easy when it was popular. Right? Like when everybody was wearing the right T shirts and old Davey had queer stuff. And like, now it's a different vibe. And so it's more important than ever to be brave with our voices and to, you know, I don't know, we keep having these Monstera plants on every stage. I think about them constantly because we have a son who is obsessed with plants, and he taught me that the monstera plant is special because all plants grow towards the light, right? I don't know. I'm not a scientist, but I think that they do. But the monstera plant is special because it grows in the rainforest, and so there's a huge canopy, and so it doesn't get sun. But it knows in its, like, little plant DNA, it just trusts that it can grow through the dark for a really, really long time, because it knows somehow that the light is out there somewhere.

[Amanda]

It's searching for the light.

[Kara]

Right?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Kara]

So I feel like that's what we have to do now. Right? It's gonna be scarier than ever to say the things we need to say and do the things we need to do, do, but we just have to keep growing in the dark, because also, that's what those guys were doing. They didn't take a day off. They were at tables, they were at meetings, they were planning, plotting, plotting, plotting for when this moment came, they were ready, and we have to do the same thing. So good job. Find the people, become that that you want. I mean, just like the book writer, not everybody wants to do that. So if you want to do it, please do.

[Amanda]

And also, sister, can you tell the story about how fascism wins?

[Kara]

Well.

[Unknown]

This is gonna make you feel cozy.

[Amanda]

No, this is actually.

[Kara]

This is so important to shame.

[Unknown]

When you're talking about the shame piece, I think that's really important because I think if. When we're being super honest with ourselves, when I am, it's like, I don't always know the right answer to things. I know I'm saying stuff wrong. I know I'm not getting it totally right. And I think we do have. Shame is a tool not only used by one side of the team. I think in sometimes in our world of even more like, moderate and left, we utilize shame a little too hard.

[Kara]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And I think we need to stop that. And the reason I think we do is because it's just. It's not effective. It scares people into being quiet, and that's the last thing that we need right now. So what Abby's talking about is that in Fascism 1.0, in the 1930s, it was, you know, it was a threat all over Europe. It was. There's a couple things about it. First, it started because, as Paul Mason says, like, fascism is the fear of freedom triggered by a taste of freedom.

[Kara]

Right.

[Unknown]

This isn't coming out of nowhere. It is coming because, like, in Fascism 1.0, when the workers rights movement was getting very, very, very strong all over Europe and It was very, very scary to the elites and the middle class. That's why fascism took place is because there was this fear of these workers rights. They're coming and they're going to come get what's theirs. Right in this moment. It feels like the oppressive forces are so strong and so loud, but we need to ask why do they need to be so loud? They need to be so loud because the taste of freedom is here.

[Kara]

Right.

[Unknown]

It's coming.

[Kara]

That's right. And so.

[Unknown]

That'S like what's under all of this? But in 1.0, in the 30s, when you look at all of the places throughout Europe where fascism was a threat, in some places it took hold, in some places it did not. And the factor that determined the difference was whether the center and the left formed coalition.

[Kara]

Yep.

[Unknown]

So it isn't as far as fun to feel like less righteous about yourself. But what I'm saying is if we don't know what's ahead, we better damn well look at what's behind us and take our lessons from that. And in every place where the center and the left, through collaboration, through compromise, through sacrifice with each other, joined forces and fought against the fascists. Fascism did not take hold there in the places. It did not take hold because the right was so strong. It took hold because the left imploded. And we can't afford that right now. And I think a place, what we can do is have a little less shame production from ourselves, a little more like if someone is willing to link arms to with you and fight against the fascism taking over in this country. Let's not like unlink our arms with a test of political purity. Let's just move forward together and do what we need to do.

[Kara]

That's right.

[Abby]

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[Amanda]

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[Amanda]

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[Amanda]

We're gonna go up top and I think we have to go to these two lovely folks in the sequence. Oh my God.

[Kara]

Sequence. The sequence. People just high fived each other, by the way. That was really good. Oh my God, that's great. Hi.

[Amanda]

We'Re sisters.

[Kara]

The sequence. Sisters, everyone. The sequin sisters.

[Amanda]

I just wanted to say my sister and I were sitting here watching Tish beautifully annihilate all of those songs and I was getting so teary leaning on my sister. I have two girls and I just was fast forwarding, seeing maybe a future where my kids are on stage or doing something they love. And I just want to say good job. And how'd you do that?

[Kara]

How'd you do that? Oh, oh, that is really good question. How did we do.

[Amanda]

How did we do it?

[Kara]

I mean, I will tell you, there's so many answers to that question. But one of the things that is tied to her being on stage is that Tish, actually of all three, was the most outwardly sensitive. When Abby joined the family, she was having a really hard time and I wanted her to get into more therapy. And Abby said, how about soccer? And I was like, is that like therapy.

[Amanda]

Sports?

[Kara]

Yeah. And she, she started to play soccer and I Just watched her through. Watching her play soccer, I understood what sports are for because she. It's like this little microcosm where you can experience all the emotions safely and you can fail and flail and win and try and be vulnerable and in this, like, little pocket of time where it's safe to do that. And she just grew and grew there. And then one day she was having an emotional reaction to something, and Abby put a guitar in her hand and said, why don't you go write a song? I mean, it's honestly probably self preservation for us right at the time. But she found music and that transformed her any. When you have a sensitive kid with a lot of feelings and thoughts, you must get them into art. It saved her. She goes into her room and she changes her. She transforms her big feelings into music now. And it's like it's opened up the entire world for her. It's changed her life.

[Amanda]

And I would just say, as they're going through some of the tables, teenage years. Hang on, hang on. Because then they get to a place where. And I'm not saying that she'll stand on stage. Your kids will get to the place where they're standing on some stage and they're able to say words like love and hate on a spectrum or generational healing work. Like, she's 19 years old and that only happens because she was given the space, the pulling our hair out, not knowing what is going on with this kid. The space to find herself because now she knows she can take herself everywhere she needs to go and she can handle all of the emotions that come up because she's been doing them with us. And now that she has this guitar and this microphone and her brilliant lyrics, that she's writing and putting the music and making records, like, it's just. It's a miracle to me that she can do any of it, because none of us have any of. I mean, you're a writer, so I guess you know what that's about.

[Kara]

Yeah, but musically, I mean, where did that come from? I don't know.

[Amanda]

So weird.

[Kara]

I mean, I would say last place. So weird. I think, lastly, what I would say to you, since yours are still younger. One thing that I would do differently, I talk to Abby about this a lot, is that I brought my kids a lot of I've got you energy. I thought that that was my job. Like, mama bear, no matter what happened. Like, I've got you, I've got you. No matter what, I've got you, I've got you. I'll take. And I think that if I could do it all over again, I would have shifted that a lot to you've got you energy. Like, I was thinking about the moment that I die and that the kids are there if I'm lucky enough to have that sort of moment. And I was thinking about how I've always thought that what they should be thinking in that moment is, there goes the best damn mom that ever. Like, she effing nailed it. Couldn't have been done better. That's truly what I thought I was going for. And it was only, like, a couple months ago that I thought. That is not true. It's true. It was, like, two months ago that I was like, that's not right. Like, that. That would be so sad, because then they'll think, what do we do now? Like, what? No, what you want them to think in that moment is, I'm gonna be okay. So it's like, do whatever you have to do every single day in and day out so that they learn over time that they've got themselves so that that is what your parenting is. So at the very end, you're leaving, and they're saying, I've got me. That's the moment.

[Amanda]

So, unfortunately, no. I want to live in Portland now. She wants to live in Portland now. You guys, unfortunately, our time has come where we are going to leave, sadly. But I wanted to call out a few people who have been instrumental at making this book look like it looks. Val, Annie, Rachel, can you guys stand up wherever you are? There they are.

[Kara]

We love you so much.

[Amanda]

So much.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's our team right there.

[Amanda]

Yay. These three, two of whom live in Portland, literally all the illustrations in this book.

[Kara]

Annie drew them all.

[Amanda]

Annie did all of them. The merch. Val and. And Annie, you guys have been a freaking miracle to work with. Thank you so much. So much. Like the joy you bring to our team. Do you guys want to hear from Tish one last time? Tish, come on.

[Tish Melton]

Thank you, Pod squad. Thank you for showing up and for helping us stay human with your brave and beautiful questions. I will never forget those moments with you on the road. We cherished every single moment being together with you in person. God, we love doing life with you. We're closing this episode the same way we ended each unforgettable night with Tish singing We can do hard things. Until next time, I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

[Brandi Carlile]

I walked through fire I came out the other side I chased desire I made sure I got what's mine.

[Kara]

And.

[Brandi Carlile]

I continue to believe that I'm the one for me and because I'm mine I walk the line Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks Our map Our final destination We've stopped asking directions Some places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find a way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives spring we can do a hard thing.

[Amanda]

I.

[Brandi Carlile]

Hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new star I'm not the proud problem Sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe the best people are.

[Kara]

Free.

[Brandi Carlile]

And it took some time but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks are mad A final destination with lack We've stopped asking directions to places they've never been and to be loved we need to be loved Know we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard.

[Amanda]

Cause.

[Brandi Carlile]

We'Re adventurous and heartbreak so mad we might get lost but we're okay with that we stopped asking directions to places they've never been and to be left loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard things yeah, we can do hard things yeah, we can do hard things Party.