Glennon Doyle (4:31)

Address, and then you'll get the little treat in your inbox.

Amanda Doyle (4:34)

Yeah, exactly. A little treat from me to you.

Glennon Doyle (4:38)

Yeah. And also just for those listening, like, you guys don't understand how much joy this is bringing. Glennon. Every morning I walk upstairs to get my coffee, and she's like, I did it. I wrote a thing. I did it. And she's doing it every single morning. And it's so fun for her and the joy that it is making and bringing to our family. It's been a full on real treat.

Amanda Doyle (5:03)

I know. And by the way, it's a little treat because I was talking to Lizzie Gilbert about this two days ago because she was so excited that I was writing again. And I said, I forgot that the reason I haven't. One of the reasons I haven't been writing is because I always think I have to write a book, and it's so long and big and I don't know, things that are long. I don't know things for a long time. Okay. I don't know how to explain that, except I only know things shortly. But then I'm clear. I'm like, wow, I know that thing and I write it down and then it's over and I forget it and it's not connected to anything else. So that's why this newsletter is so good for me. It's a little bit of wisdom, a short wisdom, and I can let go of knowing things long.

Glennon Doyle (5:52)

Yeah. All right, you guys go to glennandoyle.com you're gonna see a signup box in the top middle of the page where you can submit your email address. And if you're on Instagram, go to the page, click the link in the bio, sign up for the newsletter. It's the second button. You can do it. We love you. It's gonna be a treat.

Amanda Doyle (6:08)

Also, there's no news in the newsletter. It's a no newsletter. I just don't know what else to call it.

Glennon Doyle (6:13)

It's a non newsletter.

Amanda Doyle (6:15)

No newsletter. Bye.

Abby Wambach (6:27)

Okay, Pod Squad, as is news to none of you, we are living in an epidemic of time poverty. This feeling of having too many things to do and not enough time to complete them repeat forever. So today we are talking about practical ways that we can change our mindset so we can live happier. Now, I know this sounds like bullshit. That's what I thought. But here's the deal. We're talking about how the stories we tell ourselves about our time literally change the way we perceive our time and make us feel less time poor. The professor we have on today is here to tell us that despite all evidence in our lives to the contrary, there is such thing as enough that most of us already have it. But it's how we are thinking about it and what we are thinking about during that time that makes us feel like we don't. She's here to give us the tools to make that shift. To take back our time and to take us out of time poverty. Cassie Holmes is a chaired professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management, an award winning teacher and researcher on time and happiness, and best selling author of the new book Happier Hour. How to beat Distraction. Expand your time and focus on what matters most. The course that she developed and now teaches, which is Applying the science of happiness to life Design, is among UCLA's most popular courses for graduate business students and executives. Cassie, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Cassie Holmes (8:01)

Thank you so much for having me. And I'm so excited to talk about how it's not bullshit.

Amanda Doyle (8:06)

Thank you.

Abby Wambach (8:08)

Thank you for being open to the skeptics among us. I'm sure I projected too hard. Some people were like, that doesn't sound like bullshit to me. We would love to start with you taking us back to your epiphany on time poverty. When you were on the train from Philly and what you were going through there and what you thought was your kind of only way out. Can you take us to that moment in time?

Cassie Holmes (8:30)

Yeah, absolutely. Because I would have agreed at that point that it's all bullshit, right? The idea that you could have enough time to do all we set out to do. So when I was an assistant professor at Wharton, I had traveled up to New York to give a talk at Columbia's business school. And this talk was sandwiched between back to back meetings. So I'm rushing for meetings, then into this super pressureful talk, and then into more meetings and then into this colleague dinner. And then I looked on my watch and I was like, oh, I need to leave, I need to catch a train. So I jump in the cab and I'm yelling at this cab driver, not someone who yells. And here I am yelling and he is already speeding, but I'm telling him to go faster because I couldn't miss that last train that would get me home to Philly, where my four month old and husband were sleeping. And I did make the train that night, but I remember so vividly I sort of sunk into my seat totally exhausted, totally overwhelmed. And as I was looking at the night lights was by, I was like, I cannot keep up. Right between the pressures of work, wanting to be a good parent, wanting to be a good partner, wanting to be a good friend, those never ending pile of chores, there was too much to do and not enough time to do it. And I wanted more time. And I wanted more time not just so that I could get more done, I wanted more time so that I could slow down, so that I could actually experience the time that I was spending and so that my entire life wouldn't end up passing me by in this blur. And that is time poverty, right? It's this acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. And on the train that night, feeling extremely time poor, extremely unhappy, extremely stressed out, it was like, the solution is obvious. I need to quit my job and move to a sunny island somewhere, right? With this idea that if only I had a whole lot more time, if only I could spend the hours of my days relaxing, doing exactly what I wanted Then I would be happier. And it's like all of us who feel time poor have our version of that daydream of just walking out the door, quitting everything. And husband, let's talk for life at the beach. Or even like, bye, husband, bye kids, bye.

Abby Wambach (11:27)

Or husband, let's not pack for the life of the beach.

Cassie Holmes (11:33)

I thought that maybe if we had just a whole lot more time, then that's the secret to happiness. It turns out the answer is no. And I'm happy to speak to data that shows us so. And I'm also happy to speak to ways that I have sort of informed by my research since been thinking about and approaching my time, recognizing that time isn't just the barrier, that it can actually be the solution if we spend it in the ways that matter. If while we're spending it, we're thinking about what matters and ultimately finding not just happiness, but that satisfaction and that joy, that sense of meaning that we yearn for. Because what we don't want is at the end of our years to look back with regret.

Amanda Doyle (12:31)

Before we move on to you getting into this deeper, I just want to make sure the Pod squad understands that what Cassie is saying, I think is that time is sort of like money in that we think the answer that will make us happier is just to have a ton more of it. But all the studies actually show that it's a bell curve, that it is true that money buys happiness up to a point and then you get to the top of the bell curve and then after that, the more you make, the less happy you are. So is that true with time also that the more you're saying that there is a sweet spot, but the answer is not just endless amounts of it.

Abby Wambach (13:15)

Yeah, And I think that data is little less clear on money than it even is on time. But we're going to circle back to that piece because it's the perception that is the thing. Right. But tell us about because you are going to have to hard sell to this crew why moving to an island is not going to fix us. But it's also might be a relief because that is not possible for almost all of us. Tell us why we can give up that dream and why maybe we even should.

Cassie Holmes (13:43)

Yeah, and I do want to circle back to this sort of relationship or comparison of time and money. So the reason having more isn't always better with respect to time is because we found in our data that people are averse to being idle. And so when you're spending all of the hours of your day Day in and day out. And this isn't the weekend, this isn't vacation, this is in the regular cadence of your life. When you have all the hours of your day spending how you want, relaxing, then what we find is that undermines people's sense of productivity, it undermines their sense of purpose, and that leaves them less satisfied. And so this bell curve, this I sort of talk about it like a rainbow or an arc where happiness goes down on both sides of the spectrum. We are less happy when we have too little time. That's the time poor. That is because we feel heightened levels of stress. That stress makes us feel less satisfied, less happy. This other side where we found that there is such thing as having too much time is because of lower sense of purpose. And from that we feel less satisfied. But there is this sweet spot, as you said Glennon, where it's actually flat for a pretty wide range in our data. What we did was we analyzed data from the American Time Use survey. So it captures how tens of thousands of Americans, working and non working, how they spent the hours of their day. And so we could calculate how much time they spent on discretionary activities, those things that we want to do versus obligations, those shoulds, those things that we have to do. And what we found was, at least in this data, that those who had between two and five hours of discretionary time in the day, it was actually flat. It was not about how much time you had, which means that it's about, okay, how are you spending that time that you have available? And what's also really interesting is when you go to that side of the rainbow, the too much time side, what we find is that it actually depends on how people are spending that discretionary time. So when people are spending more than five hours of discretionary time in the day, relaxing, doing activities that are solo, that are not sort of feeling worthwhile, productive, then you see this too much time effect that's sort of watching a lot of tv, the social media, the sitting on the beach for yet another hour. But we find that when people are spending their discretionary time in ways that are personally enriching, whether it is engaging in a hobby or something that you're learning about, or those sources of joy, whether it's playing the guitar or learning how to play the guitar, or for me it's playing tennis, then you don't see this drop off effect. Also, the role of social connection is really important. When we see that when people are spending their discretionary time investing in those relationships, that you don't See, not only does it flatten off and it doesn't go down, but it actually continues to go up. So that's to say that this daydream of just living, relaxing on the beach, that's where you get the too much time effect. And that's actually where you also see among retirees, why you see reduced sense of satisfaction. You might see it among. And we see this in the data among empty nesters. So once your kids go off to college, then all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I have all this time. Where is my sort of purpose? Where is my sense of productivity? And then the important thing is to then invest that time in ways that are those enriching, that feel worthwhile. Not sort of sitting on the couch forever, which I know in this group none of us are sitting on the couch forever. But just to say that that is not something to aspire towards either.

Amanda Doyle (18:14)

Interesting.

Abby Wambach (18:15)

Okay, so do I hear you saying at the. Cause there's all these elements of like, meaning and community and all of these things which we're going to get to at the lowest common denominator. Do I hear you saying that if I can locate two hours of discretionary time and invest it well, that I am at the top of that rainbow?

Cassie Holmes (18:39)

Yes, you're sort of entering that sweet spot. Spot. Which is important because for those of us who are time poor, I will say that the idea of two hours. Are you freaking kidding me? There's no way.

Abby Wambach (18:51)

No, to be honest, I'm scrolling that shit for like 45 minute intervals. I know I have 2 hours using it poorly.

Cassie Holmes (18:59)

Yeah. And actually when. And I have my students and I encourage folks to do this, is tracking their time of being like, oh, in the week, how are you actually spending your time? And then as importantly, and we can talk about this of like, how do you feel out of those times when you come out of those activities? How are you feeling when you're tracking your time? You actually do recognize that there's a whole lot of time, or not a whole lot. There's more than you think.

Abby Wambach (19:26)

There's probably two hours.

Cassie Holmes (19:28)

There's probably two hours. And even it's not just sort of discretionary, wasteful time. I started doing this where I was like, okay. Even thinking back to that time when I had my baby and I was an assistant professor kicking my ass to work towards tenure and I had my partner, my friends, like in that era of the train night, I was like, okay. Looking at how I spent my day in the morning, I got those 20 minutes snuggling with my little guy before heading out the door and then talking to my best friend on my commute home. Then sitting down with my husband, even though it's only 30 minutes, is still 30 minutes with a glass of wine, having dinner and then singing my baby to sleep. Those are minutes that I wouldn't have wanted to spend in any other way. And when you sum them up, it's like, okay, it's not quite two hours, but it's close. And then that's sort of some of this, I wouldn't say epiphany, but realization of like, okay, there are times in our day, even for those of us who are time poor, that a, we can make it available by pulling from other activities that maybe the scrolling or whatever that aren't necessary and not all that satisfying, to be honest. But then there's also, there's good stuff that's already right there in your time, if you notice it, right?

Abby Wambach (21:01)

And the noticing is everything because. And I want to circle back to something Glennon said about the money analogy, because when I had to go back and read like four times your definition of time poverty, because I was like, wait, the definition is the feeling of having too many things to do and not enough time to complete them. It's not having too many things to do and not enough time to complete them. It's the feeling of it, which is exactly what Glennon said, which is that some people, there's poverty and poverty is below a certain threshold of money. You either have that or you don't. You can feel any which way about it, but you don't have that money. It's below the poverty line. But people who are rich feel like they don't have enough money, right? It is the feeling of that. And then their actions, that kind of anxiety of I don't have enough, I don't have enough keeps them pushing past it. It isn't actually that they don't have enough money. And I want to dig into that with this because we kind of, if we decide we don't have enough time, we will make it so, right? Because we're going to spend our time thinking, oh shit, I should be doing this, I should be doing that. I don't have enough time to do it. Can you talk to us about the barriers to what for me, it was liberating to know two hours is enough if you can find it. Like there is a definition of enough. And I think I want to talk about what the barriers to that enoughness are that you Talk so much about that have us feeling like there isn't enough time.

Cassie Holmes (22:37)

Yeah. And it's super important to recognize. Yes. The definition of time poverty is that feeling of not having enough time to complete what you set out to do. Now, there's a couple angles of that that are interesting and with income. Yes, you are absolutely right. And the data shows that when you don't have enough, when you're below a certain threshold, there's absolutely a relationship between money and satisfaction in life well being. And then once you get up to a certain amount, it sort of levels off. There is sort of messiness in the data and conclusions from it. But there are very rich people who objectively have enough money who don't feel like they do because of there's lots of these things, social comparison, hedonic adaptation, et cetera, for time. On the one hand, it's really great that it's subjective because it means that maybe there's something that we can do, we can address those barriers, that we can speak to what those are to make us feel like we have enough. But I will also say that when I was recently analyzing data, so we collected data around time poverty, the nationally representative sample, to see who is feeling this way demographically. What are the groups that are more prone to feeling time poor? What we see is that there is a gender effect, maybe not surprisingly. But I was like, actually, I think that is surprising because when we're controlling for whether you are working, whether you have a partner who's working, all of these other factors that women tend to feel more time for than men. And I shared this with my husband of being like yet another injustice of women feel more time for than men. And he was like, oh, that's so great, that means it's in your head. And I was like, no, that is not the takeaway from this. It's not in my head. It is an experience. And then picking up, okay, what are those factors that make it so Women moms tend to feel more time poor than dads. And I know, Amanda, you've sort of talked about this sort of holding up the sky. It is that it is not just the activities that we're doing, but it's all the coordinating and planning and thinking about not only what you're doing, but what everyone around you should be doing at any moment. And this idea of, okay, if we were looking at the definition again, the feeling of not having enough time to do what you set out to do, so what are you setting out to do? Yes, that's a big thing of what do we put on our to do list? It is endless and it's influenced by these things of social media, these things that I could be doing. You know, our phones allow us to be doing. I mean we can do anything at any second at this point. We can take a course, we can learn a language by going nowhere. And so this endless opportunity of things to do at any moment and then social media, you see all the other things that people are doing and then this sense of what I should be doing for everyone in my family in the coordinating. So it's good to recognize that maybe we have a little bit more control over our to do lists than we might think. That's one sort of avenue into combating time poverty.

Glennon Doyle (26:41)

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Glennon Doyle (28:41)

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Amanda Doyle (29:48)

So as part of perceiving that you have enough time, the approach to that, trying to start perceiving that you have enough time, similar to trying to start perceiving that you have enough money in that if you don't know what you're setting out to do, you will never have enough. Because if you don't know, you're not being intentional about. Actually, these are my priorities and how I spend my time. And so if I'm doing those things, I'm okay. Is it about intentionality? Let me give you an example. I was driving. I was stuck in traffic on the way to a soccer tournament while I was listening to one of your podcasts. Abby and I were. And you mentioned this exercise you do with people, which is asking them the five whys of the thing that they're doing in the moment, which to me speaks to getting to intention. So I was sitting in horrible traffic. We were in like two hours of traffic and I was not upset.

Abby Wambach (30:49)

Let's pause here for a moment of silence that Glennon was in two hours of traffic and was not upset. You're about to hear something miraculous. Whatever comes out of this.

Amanda Doyle (30:58)

No, I mean, I was upset, but I wasn't my usual level. Okay, right, right. To me, I was peaceful. Okay, So I was thinking about that. Why am I not upset? Because I am on my way to support my kid and I'm with my wife. So this is the thing that I value the most and I'm doing it right now. Then I was thinking back to two recent times when I was in traffic on the way to a work event. I became diabolical. I was so furious and upset. Okay, Rewind to several years ago when I would be in traffic on a way to a work event, and I would be a little frustrated, but not diabolical. Okay? The reason why, and I thought this through for the rest of the car ride as I was listening to your podcast, is that when I was in the car on the way to a work event several years ago, I was doing it because I was supporting my family, because I knew that me going to that thing was going to bring us enough money. It was a version of love for me. Now, when I was in that recent car, I was furious.

Abby Wambach (32:15)

Going to work.

Amanda Doyle (32:16)

Going to work. Because that's bullshit for me now I have enough money. So I actually was going to that job for a different reason. Like, I couldn't identify the why underneath the activity. And that is what made me furious. It's not the thing you're doing, right? It's not the event. If you're playing tennis because it brings you joy, then that is going to be the antithesis of time poverty. If you're playing tennis for some other reason to keep up with the Joneses or whatever, it's going to add to your time poverty. So how do we get to the story beneath and talk to us about the five whys. Because it's actually not how we're spending time that matters, is it? It's the why we're spending that time that matters.

Cassie Holmes (33:14)

Absolutely. And I'm so excited to talk about this because it is exactly what you're saying, Glennon. It is the why you're spending your time. Are you spending your time on what matters to you and not what is a should of what matters to you? And also, to be honest, if the work that you're doing is simply for the paycheck, that's also not all that satisfying. It is really, whether it's in the work domain, whether it's in your personal domain, it's doing what matters to you. And then the question is, okay, what matters to you? Because absolutely there are not enough hours in the day to do everything. So it's really about prioritization. It's about making sure that you're spending at least some of your time on those things that matter. And then the question is, okay, what matters? Right? What are those ways of spending that matter? And there's a couple of ways into this. The purpose is, the one that you're talking about right now is understanding why. Why are you doing it? And then the reason I love the five whys exercise is because often when I'm like Find your purpose. People are like, what? How do you even get there? Purpose. That's so lofty. If you don't feel like you're living out your calling, then it can also be quite sort of threatening. Feeling like, I don't have a purpose. What is she talking about? But the five whys exercise is really helpful because it allows you to dig down and see what drives you. What are those goals? So in the five whys, it's like asking yourself, why do you do what you do? In the work context, it can be your job. If you don't sort of work for pay, it can be how you dedicate your time, spend your time. And then you ask yourself, why are you doing that? And then oftentimes that first answer is pretty superficial. It might be for the job. It's like, for money.

Amanda Doyle (35:25)

Cassie. So this doesn't feel too lofty or esoteric. Can you do this exercise with us?

Cassie Holmes (35:31)

Yes.

Amanda Doyle (35:31)

Instead of just describing it, can you run us through one of them? Like, Amanda, would you be willing to experiment with this?

Abby Wambach (35:38)

Sure. Sure. Okay. So in reading your book, you had this example of, like, how you resigned from some board that you were on of your kid's school or some, like, fundraising thing they were doing for your school. And you realize that's a no for me, but a yes from me, that feels real is going on the field trip with my kid. I can support the kid in that way. And that really rang for me. And so I've been trying to think about what is my why of why? Certain things feel like yes. And I don't feel mad about the time, but certain things, I feel like someone is attacking my body if I sign up for it. So like, my example would be coaching the girls in everything. Yes. Doing anything with other adults that involve the school things. No.

Cassie Holmes (36:29)

And the question is why? Right. So it's like, if I'm like, what do you spend your time on? So say it sounds like you're going into the sort of personal realm, spending time doing kids stuff. Why do you do that?

Abby Wambach (36:45)

Because I want to support my kids.

Cassie Holmes (36:52)

Why is that important to you?

Abby Wambach (36:55)

Because I want to be involved in their lives and get to know them and spend time with them.

Cassie Holmes (37:04)

Why is that important to you?

Abby Wambach (37:07)

Because I want to know them and for them to. To know me and have a safe place to explore.

Cassie Holmes (37:15)

And why is that important?

Abby Wambach (37:17)

Because I want them to feel safe and empowered in the world.

Cassie Holmes (37:22)

Fabulous, right? So then it is you coaching soccer. It is so fulfilling because that is you allowing them or giving them a sense of Security and feeling of empowerment so that they're ready to sort of tackle the world. Wait, what was the example of something.

Abby Wambach (37:45)

That was like, so anything. God bless the people. It's not a bash, but like, anything with the PTA situation or other adults.

Amanda Doyle (37:52)

Of things, because the story is wrong there sometimes. I have done that, too, where I've been in those rooms, and I feel like, okay, we all came here because somebody told us that this is. We're here to support our kids. And then you make it halfway through meeting and you think, wait a minute. I feel like this is not even any more about the kids. And some of us are just trying to prove we're like alphas. Some of us are. We're actually working out social stuff or we're actually working out our fucking childhood wounds in this cafeteria.

Abby Wambach (38:21)

But, Glennon, people are doing that with coaching, too. It isn't the vehicle, it's the motivation.

Amanda Doyle (38:27)

Right, but that's why you have to figure it out for you. That's why I was like, oh, I want to help my kid, but I'm going directly to the classroom. I will cut shit. I'll cut out snowflakes with you, but I will.

Abby Wambach (38:37)

By cut shit, she means literally cut things.

Amanda Doyle (38:39)

Yeah.

Cassie Holmes (38:40)

But also, like, for the parents who are super involved in the pta, like, for some of them, it's super rewarding because their why is that they are connecting into their community. For them, it is about or not. All right? The parents that I am so appreciative of, and every time I interact with them, they spend so much time at school, and yet they make me feel like not the asshole for not spending time. And I realize that they're doing it because that is their community and their world. And yes, part of it has to do with the kids, but it's actually a place where they are sort of implementing their agency. They are finding their sense of productivity. And so, to your point, the reason I love the five whys and identifying your purpose, it's not a blanket of a researcher or anyone. Being like, that is a good use of time. That is not a good use of time. It is for yourself what matters to me so that you can be really clear for yourself, what is a good use of time? What is something to say yes to that you won't regret when it's actually time to do it? And when you're spending the time, even if you're stuck in traffic, you're not so angry because you're like, this is worthwhile. And again, it can happen in a Professional realm. And when I did the five whys exercise for myself, it was so game changing because it was very clear to me what in my professional activities are worthwhile. So I identified for my five whys. My purpose is to create and disseminate knowledge about what makes people happy. And with the why for that to increase the emotional well being of those immediately around me and in the world. And so when I have a professional opportunity, that is say even if it's like traveling away from my kids to give a talk, when I'm like, this is about disseminating knowledge about what makes people happy, I'm like, yes. And when I get the little like meeting someone after the talk and I'm like, oh, it worked, it's worth it. Yes, it also might pay for a vacation where I can have disseminate happiness for myself. But it's really versus showing up to a committee meeting where is this about anyone's happiness? No, this is what drives me nuts. So it's really helpful to understand your purpose, your whys using the five whys exercise. Because not only does it inform what to say yes and no to, but even when you're doing the unfun parts of these things like sitting in traffic or doing something work wise, when you know the why, it feels better. Yes, it is less taxing versus those activities that have no why or that it's like you're pulling in other people's shoulds. Yeah, that's the stuff that's so painful.

Abby Wambach (41:56)

It's the beauty of looking around and being like, oh my God, you genuinely love this shit you over there. This thing I could not even begin to love. Like isn't it cool that we all have different things things? And so if you're spending your time in a place that feels like life force extracting, it doesn't mean you're bad or wrong. It means that you're doing someone else's should. Like keep looking because there's a why for everybody.

Cassie Holmes (42:25)

It totally touches back to this idea of money and really people's sort of notion of success that is so dangerous and tricky because success is all out here. And what is success versus when you know your purpose, then success is very clear. It's like you are investing in something that fulfills that. Of course there is not enough people who have more money when you ask them, or a lot of money. And if you ask what's a salary that would make you happy. It's always more than what they're currently making. And so money you can't use as a metric of success. Also, if other people's respect of you that is sort of never ending, you know, they will go up and down. But if you are very clear on what your metric of success is, what your why is, what, your purpose, then that's the satisfaction. That's like when you're making progress, it feels so great. And you don't get sucked into this social comparison because what matters for you is different from what matters for them. And then this is also really fun because you get to be really authentically like a cheerleader for other people because it doesn't feel like competition. You're like, yes, you do you and yes, I'll do me. And hopefully they're cheering for you too.

Glennon Doyle (43:54)

This is why it was so difficult for for me in a professional sport. I played soccer for a long, long time. And I think that this why it was so difficult for me to understand happiness for myself in it. Because all of us in this weird way had these arbitrary goals that would deem us successful. And I never was able to look outside of the box and figure out actually what I was in it for myself because we collectively kind of buy into this idea that winning is the thing. And so the older I got, the more mature I got and I think maybe the happier I got in some ways because I was like, oh, this is more than just winning. But I had to actually do that personal work to figure it out for myself rather than just like take on the group think idea of what I thought was going to be the thing that made me the happiest.

Cassie Holmes (44:47)

Totally.

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Glennon Doyle (45:26)

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Amanda Doyle (46:05)

It makes me feel like your work is so Hopeful because even the idea of purpose is so hijacked when people say, well, I have to do something according to my purpose. Everyone thinks purpose is something that comes to me from the outside. Like, my purpose has to be world peace or whatever insert, you know, altruistic situation. But what I hear you saying when you say we need to be in our purpose is that it's an internal thing. That living in purpose is just living on the outside in alignment to what is important to you on the inside. What is important to you, not important to your community or your school or your world even. But can we look at the things we're doing and ask the whys for the negatives too? Right? Like, if we're feeling ragey about something that we're going. We feel like we're not in alignment. Do the whys help with that to get to if I'm feeling empty and frustrated, do you have experiments with that where we can get to the why we feel frustrated because we're out of alignment.

Cassie Holmes (47:16)

It's a signal that it is either super counter to your purpose, that it is a barrier keeping you from the purpose. So it's almost like a signal. I am getting so upset, or I'm so hurt by this because it is tapping directly into that thing in you, your purpose, or, you know, I put everything in this realm of time. When you're spending your time in a way that is so maddening and you come out of it and you're like, oh, that was such a waste. It is because it was not sort of. It feels wasteful when it's not supporting your purpose, but it feels really painful when it's like thwarting your. That's good.

Abby Wambach (48:08)

Yeah. It's like the upset can either be a confirmation of your purpose. Like, you are so upset about this because it bullseye into the thing that you're supposed to be doing, or you're upset by this because it feels insulting to your soul because you know on a deep level, you should be nowhere near doing this thing.

Cassie Holmes (48:25)

Yeah, it's a waste of time.

Abby Wambach (48:26)

It's one or the other. I would love to get a little granular now that we know what we should be doing. What. Not what we should. What is for us, what is our why? There's a few things that. Can we talk about distraction. Because that really blew my mind because I thought, okay, all right, two hours. So I'm like, going in, I'm like, doyle, you have two hours. You can do this. Like, find her. Two hours. But then I realized that as I was doing all those things. I was like, this is my two hours. In my head, I was doing another thing. And I have bad news for everyone. If you're doing another thing while you're doing the thing, the thing you're doing doesn't count. It really sucks. But, like, that's why moms feel more time poor, right? Because they're spending the time, but they're not actually spending the time.

Glennon Doyle (49:19)

Yeah.

Cassie Holmes (49:20)

It's fine to be distracted during. There are activities that we have to spend time on that are not in line with our purpose. They are just part of life. You know, there are chores that we have to do, and it's fine, actually to be distracted during that time, because even bundling can be really helpful that it makes that time that you have to spend anyway, that's not so fun. You can bundle it with something that is more satisfying or enjoyable to make that time less.

Abby Wambach (49:49)

So Cassie suggests you're folding laundry. Listen to a podcast. You're on your commute. Read your book. This isn't a sentence that you have to endure. This is pain. Okay. That we're bundling now. Okay, go ahead.

Cassie Holmes (50:00)

So distraction isn't always bad. Bundling can be good to get through those sort of taxing times. But it is really bad when, for those of us who feel really time poor, like, we don't have enough time yet, we're spending on these activities that, you know, on the face of it, are totally aligned with our purpose, like they are, you know, with our kids. And if your purpose is to make your kids feel secure and prepare them to conquer the world, why are you sort of not actually experiencing that or noticing that in your day? And that also comes from destruction. Actually, there's interesting research where they would, like, ping people during their days and ask, what are you doing right now? What are you thinking about? And how do you feel? What they found is that people's minds are wandering. They're not thinking about what they're doing, as in, they're distracted 47% of the time. Almost half of the time we are distracted. We are thinking about something other than what we're currently doing. What they also saw was when they asked, how are you feeling? They found that people tended to be happier when they were paying attention to what they were doing. And this was across different types of activities. That is engagement. Not being distracted can be really good for us mentally. Like it. It makes us feel less sort of scattered, but it also lets us notice the good stuff that's right there in front of us. Now. Sources of destruction. Our phones are major, right? It's like just sitting on the table next to you. There was an interesting experiment where they had friends dining together, and they either told them to leave their phones on the table like we normally do, or to put their phones away out of sight. Those whose phones were away, they enjoyed the time with their friends more because they were less distracted, they were more engaged. But simply having the phone on the table, even though they're not on the phone, simply seeing it there, it's distracting because it draws our mind to all those other things that we could and maybe should be doing at that moment. And another thing that is a source of distraction for me is my to do list that is constantly running in my mind, thinking about, planning for what's next. Thinking about and planning for what's next absolutely pulls me out of what's happening right now and whom I'm with. And so we have to be careful, particularly when we're spending time on in these ways that are sources of fulfillment, sources of joy in line with our purpose, that we wanna put our phones away during those times, that we wanna quiet that to do list so that we can pay attention. Now, we've been talking a lot about time poverty, which is really this sort of thinking about the hours of our day. How do we get as much done? Or can we accomplish what we need to in these 24 hours or even like in this week? But time, actually, in my early research, I found that when people were drawn to think about time, actually, in contrast to many or in general, people were happier because it made them intentional investing their time in what mattered. But then it's like, wait, but time's the stressful thing. And it's like, no. What I've come to learn is that when people take a step back and think about their time in their life, they're thinking about their years, not about the hours of their days. Then that's really clarifying. So I have, in addition to the five whys exercise, which helps people identify their purpose, I have my students. You're going to be like, oh, my God, this sounds terrible.

Abby Wambach (54:12)

No, they're not. They've already probably both done it. I know what you're going to say.

Cassie Holmes (54:17)

I have my students write their own eulogy. So projecting forward to the end of their lives and taking the perspective of someone who survived them and describing what was this life? How did this person show up in their minds and their hearts? And that eulogy exercise is so powerful because what it does is it makes people think about the years of their life. It clarifies their values, what matters to them. And while at the sort of outset it might sound like a sad exercise, it's actually really empowering because when you take that perspective, thinking about time more broadly, the years of your life, then it's like, oh, that's what matters and that's how I should spend my hours today. So it's informing so both the five whys for purpose, the eulogy exercise for your values, and then there's also the counting times left exercise that makes you stop being distracted during those sort of precious, most joyful minutes.

Amanda Doyle (55:36)

I don't want to hear that one. That one's too much for me. But just based on what you just said. But I love the eulogy one because I'm constantly thinking about we all want to avoid deathbed regret. And truly the only way we can do that is to avoid bedtime regret. Right. It's like looking at your life. As Annie Dillard said, how we spend our days is inevitably how we spend our lives. So figuring out what your big whys are by writing your eulogy and then aligning your daily time with what your big whys are means you go to bed knowing that you spent your day in align with your whys, which means by the end of your life, you will know that you spent your life aligned with the whys. And I just wanted to say one more thing about what you were talking about with distraction, which is that I think about this all the time because I go to a 12 step meeting every morning and there's something magical that happens to me in those which I don't know what it is and I'm not worried about it. I just know that it's good for me for the day. Except that every once in a while, Cassie, I log on and then I online shop for the whole meeting. Okay? I am on there. I look at my face every once in a while, I appear to be present and that's what matters. And then I online shop. And you'll be shocked to know that those days don't go as well for me. Okay, so I've but really cute shoes.

Abby Wambach (57:05)

Great shoes.

Amanda Doyle (57:06)

Yes. So I've started to think of it as like, okay, we can know that if we go to the lake and we jump in the water that we are going to feel better the rest of the day. We don't know why, but we know that that water. But when we go to these things and we don't have our mind and hearts there, it's like we've driven to the lake, but we're just gonna stand there on the shore and then leave and then wonder why the experience didn't wash over us and change us the way it usually did. Right. When you are going to the lake because it feeds you, you have to get wet or it will not take effect. So is it because it's connection that heals us? Is it because when we're not there mentally, we're not getting the connection that is the jumping in the lake?

Cassie Holmes (58:03)

Yeah. So connection is one way to describe it. It's that you're not actually experiencing it.

Amanda Doyle (58:11)

Yep.

Cassie Holmes (58:11)

You are distracted through it and like connection. I'm really glad you brought that up because in terms of our interpersonal connection, it's super harmful. Not only are we distracted and it keeps us from experiencing it, but those around us know we're distracted and therefore they're not going to show up. They'll also be grumpy and hurt because you're not there with them. And so, yes, it's connection to the moment, it's connection to yourself, and it's connection to those whom you're with.

Abby Wambach (58:51)

Can I just say one thing about the distraction piece that I have an aversion to distraction shaming for all of the reasons. Like, this country wants to have their cake and eat it too. This country wants women to carry the mental load, but then they also want to shame them for being on their phones at the playground. And they want you to make sure that you figure out what the kid is wearing tomorrow for spirit week. But they don't want your ass thinking about it while you're putting them to bed. So I was always, like, really annoyed by that. But reading your work is the first time I was like, oh, it's not for them, it's for me. Exactly. I'm not having this experience.

Amanda Doyle (59:30)

Exactly. I get it.

Abby Wambach (59:33)

I get to have this experience. If not, I just. At the end of the week, I'm like, why do I feel so depleted? It's because I didn't have any of the experience I experienced. Like, I didn't have any of them. I was just doing three things at once for all of them and therefore doing none of them. So if you are annoyed by the talking about distraction, what I just want to say is, try it out for yourself and see if you have a better experience. And then, incidentally, if that makes everyone else have a better experience, good for them.

Cassie Holmes (60:01)

Also, just choose the activities that matter to you to not be distracted. You can be distracted if, like, going to the playground isn't your source of joy, then that's a bundling thing. You're like, okay, I will shop and get things done. But if going to your playground is actually the time when they get to see your, then put your phone away. It's not like always have your phone away. Always be engaged. What it absolutely is for those activities that really matter to you that are in line with your purpose, that are you living out your values. Those are the times. Put your phone away, pay attention, and the rest of the hours of the day, fine. Be distracted. Fine. Yes, you will show up for things you don't really want to do. But it's okay because at the end of the week you will feel fulfilled because you fully felt you fully invested. You were totally there on those things that mattered. And yeah, so your schedule will be full. You will be busy, but you'll feel fulfilled. Unlike the moving through and driven by shoulds and driven by broaden ideas of success as opposed to your own purpose and values.

Amanda Doyle (61:23)

Beautiful, Cassie. Okay. I don't think it's bullshit.

Cassie Holmes (61:30)

Thank you so much.

Amanda Doyle (61:33)

You win, Cassie. Thank you so much. You're wonderful. You're absolutely wonderful.

Cassie Holmes (61:40)

Well, thank you all. This has been. I've been so excited. You guys don't know this, but we're totally best friends because I listen to you often.

Abby Wambach (61:51)

I love it. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Well, we loved your book. So good.

Amanda Doyle (61:56)

Thank you.

Abby Wambach (61:57)

And thank you for being here with the crew. We appreciate it.

Cassie Holmes (62:01)

Awesome. Thank you.

Amanda Doyle (62:02)

Bye. Podswood. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.