QUITTING: When is it time to let something or someone go? (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "QUITTING: When is it time to let something or someone go? (Best Of)"

Title: QUITTING: When is it time to let something or someone go? (Best Of)
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Release Date: May 25, 2025
Platform: Audacy
Description:
In this compelling episode of "We Can Do Hard Things," hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle explore the often misunderstood concept of quitting. Moving beyond societal stigmas, they discuss quitting as an act of self-care, self-love, and resistance against unrealistic expectations. Through personal anecdotes, psychological insights, and heartfelt conversations, the trio empowers listeners to discern when quitting is a necessary step toward a more authentic and fulfilling life.

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1. Challenging Societal Norms Around Quitting

Amanda Doyle opens the episode by addressing the pervasive cultural narrative that glorifies never quitting. She states:

“We hear, winners never quit, quitters never win. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Suck it up. Never give up.”
— Amanda Doyle ([04:36])

Amanda challenges this mindset, advocating for quitting as a wise and strong choice. She highlights the backlash women face when they choose to prioritize their well-being over societal expectations, using high-profile examples like Simone Biles, Meghan Markle, and Naomi Osaka.

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2. Personal Journeys and Perspectives on Quitting

Glennon Doyle shares her discovery of Abby's quotes on quitting, which humorously contradict Abby's public persona as an unstoppable competitor:

“You must not only have competitiveness, but ability, regardless of the circumstances you face, to never quit.”
— Glennon Doyle ([06:32])

This revelation leads to a discussion on the varied personal definitions of quitting. Glennon reflects on her own relationship with quitting, recognizing how societal pressures have sometimes kept her in unfulfilling situations:

“I have prided myself on never quitting, but I have stayed in some shitty situations because of it.”
— Glennon Doyle ([16:38])

Abby Wambach delves into her athletic background, explaining how quitting was ingrained as losing in sports. However, she acknowledges her struggles with quitting in personal tasks, like home repairs, illustrating that the act of quitting is complex and multifaceted:

“I was a refuser of quitting... When I stepped into sobriety, it was the most proud moment of my life.”
— Abby Wambach ([32:23])

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3. Psychological Insights: Sunk Cost Fallacy and Hedonic Adaptation

Amanda Doyle introduces the concept of the sunk cost fallacy, explaining how individuals often continue commitments due to past investments rather than present benefits:

“Sunk cost is any unrecoverable cost you've already incurred... It's completely irrational because you're never going to recover that anyway.”
— Glennon Doyle ([09:24])

Glennon Doyle further explores hedonic adaptation, discussing how people return to a baseline level of happiness regardless of positive or negative changes:

“We adapt... Only about 10% of happiness is due to circumstances. The rest is within our control.”
— Glennon Doyle ([25:11])

This insight challenges the idea that quitting external factors will lead to lasting happiness, emphasizing the importance of internal change.

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4. Empowering Stories of Quitting for Growth

Amanda Doyle shares her transformative experience of quitting alcohol and leaving a broken marriage, framing these quits as steps toward personal freedom and authenticity:

“Quitting alcohol and leaving a marriage were the most empowering decisions of my life.”
— Amanda Doyle ([28:25])

Abby Wambach reflects on her sobriety journey, highlighting how quitting detrimental behaviors allowed her to reconnect with her true self and form meaningful relationships:

“Quitting drinking was the thing that impacted my life the most. It led me to meet Glennon and find happiness.”
— Abby Wambach ([34:38])

Glennon Doyle discusses overcoming bingeing and purging, as well as ending a dissatisfying marriage, emphasizing the liberation that comes from letting go:

“Quitting allowed me to break free from past constraints and embrace a life aligned with my true self.”
— Glennon Doyle ([40:47])

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5. Listener Voices: Navigating Personal Quitting Decisions

The hosts address listener questions, providing supportive advice tailored to individual struggles with quitting.

Sarah's Dilemma:
Sarah contemplates quitting her stable government job to pursue a career in art but feels overwhelmed and uncertain.

“Be like a man and assume that you are qualified and ready. No one's ever 100% ready. Go get it and share your art with us.”
— Glennon Doyle ([53:55])

Bridget's Challenge:
Bridget grapples with her teenage daughter wanting to quit her nationally ranked soccer team, feeling embarrassed and ashamed within her community.

“We can't live vicariously through our kids. Celebrate their choices and support their autonomy.”
— Abby Wambach ([57:16])

The hosts commend Bridget's honesty and encourage her to prioritize her daughter's happiness over societal expectations:

“Your girl's a badass. You did a good job, Bridget.”
— Amanda Doyle ([60:27])

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6. Redefining Quitting: From Loss to Liberation

In their concluding thoughts, the hosts reiterate the original meaning of quitting as setting oneself free and finding calmness and rest.

“The original definition of quitting was to set free from. To be calm, to rest. That was the origin of quit for 700 years until, like, a hot minute ago.”
— Glennon Doyle ([60:52])

They encourage listeners to identify areas in their lives where letting go can lead to greater peace and authenticity, affirming:

“When things get too hard this week, don't forget, we can quit Hard Things.”
— Amanda Doyle ([60:52])

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Notable Quotes:

• Amanda Doyle: “We hear, winners never quit, quitters never win. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Suck it up. Never give up.” ([04:36])

• Abby Wambach: “Quitting is, in fact, losing. You can't actually win if you quit.” ([07:02])

• Glennon Doyle: “The original definition of quitting was to set free from. To be calm, to rest.” ([60:52])

---

Conclusion

This episode of "We Can Do Hard Things" thoughtfully dismantles the negative connotations surrounding quitting, presenting it as a courageous and necessary choice for personal growth and well-being. Through honest dialogues and shared experiences, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda empower listeners to embrace quitting as a step toward a more authentic and fulfilling life.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Hi everybody. Thanks for coming back to we can do Hard Things. This episode is about the power of quitting. It's about quitting as self care and as an act of self love and as resistance. We recorded this episode before Simone Biles stepped away from an Olympic moment in order to protect her own mental, physical and emotional health. And judging by the world's reaction to her, no, we think we're onto something with this conversation because the world loses its damn mind when a woman decides to abandon the world's expectations of her instead of abandoning herself. When a woman decides to disappoint the entire world before she disappoints herself, when a woman values her own experience above our experience of her, when a woman says, I am more than what you can get from me, I choose me. And judging by the response to Meghan Markle's no, to Naomi Osaka's no, and to Simone Biles no, the world especially loses it when the woman who dares to insist upon and protect her own humanity happens to be a black woman. Let's get started. Thanks for being here. Today we're going to talk about something that's near and dear to my heart, and that is quitting. I was raised by a football coach, okay? Which was interesting for my enneagram for deeply empathic, sensitive poet soul. My sweet father would say things to me often, like, well, if I sat down and said I was tired after school, he would say, glennon, you can rest when you're dead. Okay? I was seven. Suck it up, buttercup. It's too far from your heart to hurt. All of these sort of things.

[Glennon Doyle]

Were.

[Amanda Doyle]

My, I guess, motivational speeches.

[Glennon Doyle]

Great for a linebacker, not so great for a toddler, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Maybe. Maybe. And then I go out of my home and venture out into the world and learn that this cultural obsession with what we have defined as toughness, resilience, never quitting is freaking everywhere, right? I mean, we hear, winners never quit, quitters never win. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Suck it up. Never give up. All of these messages, and I don't buy it, okay? I am here today to challenge this resilience at all costs narrative. I am here on behalf of quitting as the strong, wise thing to do quite often. Okay? And I'm here to do it with the two toughest non quitters on earth, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle. And we are calling this episode we can Quit Hard Things. Okay, sister, why don't you start us off? You never, never, never quitter.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I was. Will have you know that when you told me we were talking about this, of course I did what I do, which is research things, and I was looking for quotes and theories about quitting. And I will let you know that your bride came up at the top of the Googles quotes about quitting. Okay, here it is. And I'm quoting an Abby voice. You must not only have competitiveness, but ability, regardless of the circumstances you face, to never quit.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God, that's so funny.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it's you. It's you. You're up there and then I found this quote from your bride, Abby. When asked by a journalist, how do you not quit? Glennon says, oh, I do quit. Quitting is my favorite. Every day I quit every single day I wake up and I care the most amount. And then at some point, I put it all away and melt to my people and my couch and food and nothingness and. And I care not at all. Begin and quit every day. It's the only way to survive.

[Amanda Doyle]

Amen. I would never start hard things if I didn't know that quitting was just on the horizon.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was your self care strategy, too, in the self care episode, right? Just self care is just constant spiritual practice of quitting.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right. But, babe, talk to us a little bit about your incorrect statement about quitting, okay? When you were talking about how important it is to not quit, why don't you tell us?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, listen, we're all different. We all grew up in different ways. And I played sports for 30 years. Right. So. And doing it at a level that quitting wasn't part of your vocabulary. But I think. I think as it relates to any athletes quitting, you are taught the opposite of quitting is winning. Right. Quitting is, in fact, losing. You can't actually win if you quit. You can't stay in the game. You can't stay in the practice. And what I learned over the course of my career is if I just didn't give up, I was allowed to keep playing. And I was good enough that I was allowed to keep playing. And that. I mean, I know that some people might completely disagree with me, but I believe that that mindset is the reason why I was able to win championships and play at the high level that I did for so many years. But.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you still have that.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's still inside of me. I can't completely get rid of it. Like, for instance. And this is the bane of your existence, Glennon, but I fancy myself like a home fix it person.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, sweet Jesus.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's just not true. I know it's not true, but I still fancy myself that way. I like to think of myself as some, like, the lesbian who can fix shit. Like, I like that. I like feeling that way about myself. So for an example, I ordered this new Griddle outdoor grill. It's the craze. My brother told me about it. And it's a propane grill that I need now. Need to convert from propane to natural gas because we have a pipe that comes out of the wall. Well, now I have spent probably collectively 10 hours building this thing and trying to convert it, because what I've done is stripped the thread. Basically, I broke it. And I have. I'm now actually considering paying somebody to come fix it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Why do you think it is that you cannot quit those things? Like, you don't. You look at a grill and it's. And it's falling apart, and you say that you. You don't want to give up because then you feel like you've wasted all the time you put into the thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's a real thing. That is. So there's this idea of sunk cost. So sunk cost is basically any unrecoverable cost that you've already incurred. So say you're, you know, you're like, I'm buying software for my job, and you. It's a 500 bucks, and you spend a day training on it, and then you realize, oh, this isn't working. This is not going to work. You will actually want to continue using it because you spent the money and the time on it, but it's completely irrational because you're never going to recover that anyway. So a rat rational thinking is, I am only going to count future costs and benefits. But that's not how we operate as people. So we will continue because of the sense of regret and feeling like a loss, even though that loss is that loss, you're never going to get it back. You incur future losses. You throw good time and good money at the already sunk cost because you. You will not take that loss, even though you're definitely already taking that loss. And we do it in relationships. We say, like, I can't have wasted that six years of my life. I can't have. But. But it's all that kind of fallacy of there's some way to resurrect that loss if I just keep doing it. You know, it's that meme that everyone.

[Amanda Doyle]

Passes around that says something like, don't keep making a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it. I just have a different. I really, really have a very different idea about quitting. And I. I know, babe, that I'm not. I was never an Olympian. So there's. This might be one of the reasons that I was never an Olympian. But I respect your point of view on quitting. I get it. I see the beauty that comes from that way of life for me. I've been thinking a lot about why I believe so much in quitting as a really strong thing to do sometimes, and I think it's because so much of my life, I came to life because of a big quit, right? I mean, people who, who face a, a rock bottom in their life, like a major mental health crisis often have this gift, okay? This gift comes with major breakdown, which is that you are one of the only humans who are lucky enough to be taught how to be human. It's like so many people never have the gift of everything falling apart and saying, I can't do life, help me. People who go into recovery like I did, you know, tend to have programs and groups and therapy that teaches you how to be human, which we don't teach people in school. I was a third grade teacher. I remember, you know, teaching ancient Egypt hieroglyphics for six months. But never being like, here is a feeling, here is a boundary. Here is what inevitably will happen when you're being human, right? So I learned that quitting for me meant means and meant. It's like the ultimate responsibility to me. It's like the ultimate living responsibly. Because through almost dying from addiction, I learned nobody's going to handle my shit for me, like I almost died. Like, nobody is going to look at my life and say, that's not working for you. That's not working for you. Nobody is going to protect me except for me. So when something stops working for me, right, when something actually starts to affect my peace, it's my responsibility to stop it and start something else. It's like the definition of the word responsible, meaning able to respond, right? Like when something. My job as a sober person is to protect my peace. And so when something, whether it's a relationship or a job or a way of life or an idea that threatens that stability for me, my job is to respond and get rid of it. So quitting for me feels like a powerful thing to do. What about you, sister?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I just think the quitting is such a fascinating word. It's like both over inclusive and under inclusive. I mean, we use quitting for, for eliminating from our lives really, really harmful things. You know, you, you quit smoking, you quit drinking, you, you quit binging, you. All of these things. And then we also use it for, for you, for jobs and for things that are, that are irresponsible. You know, she. She promised to do that for me and then she just quit. She pro. So. So it's this kind of word that doesn't make any sense when we apply it to everything. I just wish there were different words to use for a positive, you know, congratulations, you let go of that Thing that wasn't working for you, and then another one that was you really let yourself or other people down by not sitting with your discomfort enough to. To fulfill that for yourself. I mean, it just seems like it's an odd. It's an odd word. So, but, and so I was thinking about that and I looked it up and the Latin origin of that word, of the word quit is quietus. And it actually means to set free. So it's to be free and clear of something. And it also, the other origin of the word is calm and resting. So we, we took the idea of quitting and then it was only 700 years later where it started having this negative connotation. And that, not to my mind coincidentally, was during the Industrial Revolution where. And it started to be like, like quitting time. That means there we go, being free of work, being free. It's your resting time, it's quitting time from your job. And then it started to have this negative connotation at that point. So I feel like since that point it's been like, what a quitter? What? You know, it's bad.

[Amanda Doyle]

Quitters are for. Quitters are losers. That's when that came in. Because what you're saying is that when we became, when our worth as human beings became tied to productivity, it became important for the cultural idea to be never stop. And if you stop, you're a loser. And if you keep going at all costs to your body, to your relationships, to anything, you're a winner.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? Right. If capitalism is the relentless pursuit of productivity, any, any resting or being free from work is a loser's way of doing things.

[Amanda Doyle]

Amazing. What is your, your personal relationship with quitting?

[Glennon Doyle]

I think I have a very complicated. Well, I think I have a. I mean, I see what you're saying because much to the way that you're saying your ultimate responsibility is not accepting. If you continue to do this, it will work out. Well, I feel like I have kind of. I have this. I have maybe swallowed that promise of if you show up, if you work hard, if you push through pain, if you can see it all the way through, things work out. And that is not necessarily true, but I think that I have kind of prided myself on that. And I've stayed in, in some shitty situations because of it. But I think there's also this very, very gray area, which is, for example, when I was working at the law firm and I was so freaking miserable and I. And I remember I hated it so much. And you and Mom, I feel like once a month would have this kind of like intervention with me and tell me to quit. And I remember just being so annoyed and frustrated by that because I I was like, I am doing a thing here. I know what I'm doing. I am staying here because I am paying off my loans. I'm setting myself up to have the future freedom to do what I want to do. I'm taking care of my future self right now, even at the expense of my current self. And that actually, I don't know if that's a story I'm telling myself, but I do believe when I look at my life that that did afford future self to freedom to myself. I was setting myself free in the future in a way that had I just quit in that moment, I think I would still be tethered in to so many debts and not have the freedom I have right now. So I think it's complicated this podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues it's that time of year again. The flowers are blooming and birds are chirping. And also that time when allergies can test you and show up when you least expect. But with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues, you can be ready to face them, whether it's sneezes or watery eyes. You don't want to be caught without a tissue on hand to help. Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues are gentle on eyes and noses. They're for all the moments at home and on the go that allergies can disrupt this allergy season. Be better prepared with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues, which are allergist approved so you can go on with your day. Life and allergies can both be unpredictable, but you can be prepared for that time of year by making sure you've always got Kleenex Ultrasoft Tissues ready for whatever happens next. Grab Kleenex. Just got a new puppy or kitten.

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[Amanda Doyle]

Do you feel that that every advantage also becomes a disadvantage for our in our lives? Like, do you feel that that theory that you have about your future, your present self's job is to prepare and work for your future self? Do you see that? To not quit. No matter what your present self is saying to you, what your mind is saying, your feelings, your intuition, your body, your people, no matter what they're saying to you, you carry on. Because in some way this will bring great reward to your future self. At what point does your present self ever get to be happy?

[Glennon Doyle]

Correct? That is so this is my ultimate. This is my existential fear of my entire existence, which is that I love so much building a life that I don't ever live inside of one. So I have this kind of horizon view of life where I am always thinking what is going to be the next thing? What am I setting myself up for? I am so fixated on that thing and how to get there that I never actually arrive there. I and I never. Because then I'm fixated on the next thing. And I am. I am not seeing any part of the journey. And I'm not talking about enjoy every moment like Jesus. I'm talking about just even experiencing any of the of it or ever having any gratification in any of the episodic arrivals of what I had been pursuing. Because then it's just the next thing and the next thing and the next.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thing reminds me of our great grandfather, the story about our grandfather who never took a day off of work, right Remember dad would tell us the story who never, ever took a day off of work so that one day he could travel with his wife. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

He wanted to retire a couple years earlier. He was storing them all up so he and. He and my grandma could travel. Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

And then what? Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

And they never.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, listen, that is, like, the saddest thing. And you know what, sister? I think I. Before I got sober, I had the opposite problem, where I was just trying to live so much in the present that I didn't want to think about anything into the future. And, like, maybe there is some sort of middle ground here, Right, where we're making days that are going to positively affect our future somehow. I don't know. I feel like you and I have some opposite problems. That if we just. If we smush together, we could become a perfect person.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I mean, it's interesting. It's like that. I think it's Annie Dillard who said, how we spend our days is how we spend our life. Like, we think about. You know, everybody's always saying, how do you avoid deathbed regret? Like, that's what you're saying, sister, is like, how do you. What if one day on my deathbed, I regret never having lived this life that I'm so desperately trying to build constantly? And I'm so good at building. And the only way that I can think of to avoid deathbed regret is to avoid bedtime regret. Right. Which is trying to spend part of your days aligned with what you love.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, it's true. And it's. So this is something that I just learned today. And I am. I'm wondering if this is gonna freak you out with delight as much as it freaks me out. Probably not.

[Abby Wambach]

But I'm so excited.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was thinking about this horizon thing, and, like, what the hell is wrong with me? Okay. This is what I learned. If. So if quitting is about. If quitting is the opposite of striving. Okay. So you're continuing to try to strive for things. We view quitting as this kind of. That's going to buy us happiness.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Positing the idea of quitting as if I am having a terrible experience. The quitting of it was. Will release me from that terrible experience. I'm not sure that is, first of all, big question mark. I mean, like, everyone has this fantasy of, I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna move to Bali and I'm just gonna, like, ride in a canoe or something, whatever the hell. Your fantasy doesn't work.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'VE moved everywhere. That's the destination. Life. That's like the tragedy of wherever you go, there you are. So go ahead, Cecilia.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. But that I feel like that's an important part of the quitting. Whatever the fantasy we're holding up is. It assumes that it's going to be good for us, that it's going to get, you know, so. Hey, maybe not. I don't know. But there. Okay, so there is. So there is this concept called hedonic adaptation. Okay, just bear with me for a second. It's this idea that we adapt. So it's the idea that we have this baseline level of happiness. Okay. That we return to. Okay. It doesn't matter the awesome or terrible things that happen to us. That there is only so 50% of our total happiness is sheer genetics, chemical makeup. That to me is like. That might be like depressing to some people. That is such a freaking relief. It's like all this idea of that, like I am just one decision and one achievement away from happiness. And that that's literally not true, that I'm never gonna be. I'm literally just gonna be as happy as I am. And only 10% of happiness is due to circumstances. So there's this like 40% that's within our control. Okay. That we could like change something about our lives, but it's that everything that we do, including quitting your job, you have the fantasy of quitting your job, you have the fantasy of not being married to this person. It's going to change your life. Okay, maybe. But actually you just adapt that level of happiness into yourself and you re acclimate and then the next thing, you, you acclimate that you're like emotional self metabolizes that and you end up the exact same level of happiness.

[Amanda Doyle]

Interesting. Okay. I feel that you are someone who has done some research to support your theory that quitting is not going to be helpful. I hear you. I feel like I want to get into one of the things that I want to ask you all, which is to think about some of you. The best quits or the best non quits in your life, right? I actually have made a few quits that I know dramatically affected my joy and freedom and power and peace. I don't know about happiness. I don't know what that is, but certainly I would say quitting drinking, right, was the biggest, most important quit of my life. And like all important quits. I never think of it really as quitting. I think of it as starting something else. Like starting down this path.

[Abby Wambach]

Of sobriety, which I think is important, babe, to talk about the actual word itself and like, how. How we use it. Actually, you might not even need to use the word quit. Right. Like, so I. I think that it's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Important you got free from.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And every person has to define what that means for them because quit might mean the complete opposite from one person to the next.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. So I like that. Okay. So I freed myself from alcohol so that I could start living deeply. Leaving a broken marriage. Right. Was one of the best and most important and empowering quits of my life. I just remember being constantly so angry at my ex husband, even after all the healing that we had done and, you know, obsessing about the infidelity and so much more. And I remember one morning thinking the track in my head was, how could he do this to me? How could he have done this to me? How could he have done this to me? That was in my head over and over again and suddenly it just switched to, wait, how could I do this to me? Like, he's.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's.

[Amanda Doyle]

He's done and dusted, like, everything. He's. There's nothing else he can do to undo that. I'm the one who continuously is choosing this every single day. I'm the one who's not being responsible to my own joy and my own peace and my own.

[Abby Wambach]

So that's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

You know, I mean, babe, you. I think rethinking the ending of a marriage, I think is interesting. We were talking to your friend recently, and she was reporting that one of your mutual friends had. Was going through a divorce. And we were all sitting at a little table and you said, oh, my God, that's so sad. That's so sad. I feel so bad for her. And I just remember looking at you and just being like, I just want to rethink that compulsory reaction to divorce.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, actually, you know, in some ways, divorce is like, always good because it's like, clearly it was bad. Clearly the relationship was bad. Like, nobody wakes up in the morning is like, you know, what, what the hell? We're bored. Let's get divorced.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like the end of a long, you know, suffering, struggling road.

[Abby Wambach]

And they say that it wouldn't end unless it was hard and bad because otherwise it wouldn't end.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right. So sometimes, you know, I just remember thinking, looking at you and that reaction, we were all a compulsory reaction. Oh, it's so sad. And thinking, what if this is not sad at all? Like, what if this is the most Strong, hopeful, creative triumph that this woman has ever had, especially the beginning of.

[Abby Wambach]

Her life, especially coming from me, somebody who has literally had the positive experience of divorce. Like, it's so ingrained in us. I've had the positive experience of divorce of, like, leaving a marriage, you leaving a marriage, and us finding something better and more true and beautiful.

[Amanda Doyle]

How could.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's because it's so deep in all of us. This, like, this narrative that we have about divorce. Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Stay even if you're miserable. Stay even if you're staying is winning, Quitting is losing. Not my lived experience. Right. What about you all? What are your. And, and by the way, let's mention that so much of this, so much of this quitting, ability to leave a job, ability to leave a relationship, ability to leave a toxic community, ability to. Is so much based on privilege.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, right.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was. I was able to leave that marriage because I had savings, because I had people helping me, because I was able even. You know, I was thinking about this last night. Even quitting alcohol and drugs is based on privilege. I mean, I had access to therapy, I had a car to get me to recovery meetings. Yes, Sister, what's a good quit of yours? Or, Abby, do you want to go? Because you were just talking about marriage. Like, tell us a quitting story.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I mean, obviously I feel like I'm a middle in between you and sister. Like, sister's hardcore never quit mentality. You're like, quit every day. I have learned lessons from both of these mentalities and have had positive reinforcements. And quite frankly, I think the reason why I was such a really big alcoholic is because I was really a refuser of quitting. I was really righteous about this. Like, don't ever quit. When I dropped that narrative and I stepped into sobriety, it's the thing that I think I'm the most proud of in terms of moving beyond, you know, that was a season of my life. And I don't really love thinking about the regrets of my life. The truth is, is I believe that we. Our lives are our decisions and what we do. And quitting drinking was the thing that impacted my life the most. I was going through a really weird time that I quit playing soccer and I quit traveling the world, I quit representing my country, I quit being a teammate, I quit a marriage, I quit drinking. All, like, within like a five month period of my life. And had I not done all of those things gone in, I met you like a month later, I think we would have missed each other. And so I attribute so much of my happiness now to moments where my life wasn't working for me in the way that it was presenting itself and I had to make choices. And some of those choices involved quitting things that weren't serving me. And because of that, I was able to like, actually meet you where you were. So, yeah, I've had some really good experiences with quitting. So I. And I see you actually one of the. You model it for me so often every night when like you power down and you run out of Glennon. I love that because I'm like, oh yeah, like we've had a day. Like we get to chill right in time. Yeah, I love it.

[Amanda Doyle]

What about you, sister? Well, I will. Good quits or bad quits?

[Glennon Doyle]

I will just one. One decide. Abby just talked about meeting you. I think in defense of not quitting, I would like to mention that the day you were scheduled to fly to the convention in which you met Abby for the first time, you did call me from the gate saying, please, I am. You are my sister. You are my manager. What I am asking to do and what I need you to do is tell me that I do not have to get on this plane. My body is tired. I do not want to go. I am done. Okay, okay, I'll just say that. I'll just say that in defense of not quitting.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you, sister.

[Amanda Doyle]

As you posit that I would like to. What is it? When I try to undo the deposit you just made, I would like to deposit this deposit.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Abby Wambach]

I wondered. It was a year in whatever.

[Amanda Doyle]

It was the beginning. I know. But listen, I know what was happening at that point when I was about to go on a nationwide book tour to tell a story that I wasn't sure in my bones that I believed I was about to tell. The Love Warrior story, which was about the redemption of my marriage. And I didn't know really at the end of the day if it was redeemed or if I was just like forcing it to be real. So my body does the ways that I know that I have to stop something. That something is not serving me is First I get really bitter and angry and defensive and nasty. I'm mad at everybody else.

[Abby Wambach]

I can agree to this.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, for making me do things right. So this is stage one in which I have forgotten that I am a grownup and responsible for my own life and no one else is responsible for my life. Everyone will always ask me to do a million things and no one will save me but me. Okay, so I forget and I'm mad at everyone else for not taking care of me. And then if I don't handle my business soon enough, my body starts shutting down. I start getting totally exhausted. I start getting right babe. Yep, my I will just so I believe that that moment in that airport was like my body starting to reject the what was coming. But thank God sister, you football coached me up. You told me no guts, no glory. It was time for a Hail Mary pass or something. I don't know. But I got on the damn plane. Thank God.

[Abby Wambach]

Hey, a Hail Mary pass, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

See that's by the way prophetic. Oh, you're Mary. Mary. Mary Abigail Wambach. Okay, Sister, can you just tell us a story about maybe a good quit or a bad quit or something? A quitting story, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I think no doubt the, the. If the being free from the best being free from was stopping my lifestyle of binging and purging because that was just so all consuming it was. I wouldn't be doing anything with my life if I were still doing that. And then I think. And leaving. Being free of my marriage was another great one. I mean none of these are in the quote unquote quit areas. They're just things to get free from that we are very. That we had a prior commitment to pursuing. I think we view quitting as this random. Like it's either people or jobs or. Or substances where I feel like the, the work that could, that I could do most dramatically in my life are kind of quitting my commitment to ways of thinking about things.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, amen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like what?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, you know, like that idea of like constantly striving. Like the thing. The happiness is just one. You know, once I start. Once I start saving 100 bucks a month for college, for my kids college, I'll feel financially secure. Once I start, you know, once I fold all this laundry, my head will be in order. Once I, you know, just all. I mean, and then the longer term ones because that's that same. Because that leads to lack of rest, that leads to lack of freedom. It's like so much is ingrained in our commitment to continuing to believe and think with a certain framework that I think that the quitting, the setting free from is so much more expansive than the way we think about it. Sometimes I think that the relationship and the jobs are false. They're a little bit like false prophets. Like if we. We are deeply sad. And that's why I will continue to go back to my hedonic theory because I do think that that we. That that it is true that they said that the, the ways that you impact happiness. Like we think if we leave our job or some marriages, yes, you need to leave. Leaving my job was one of the best decisions I ever made. My other job. But I also think that A, when you're in it and deciding to leave, are you taking, you know, is that in. In in support of yourself? Are you. Are you going to be. Have the maximum freedom for yourself after? And then B, I think that they're kind of within. Those are like the easy buttons in some ways.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. So. So I Think when you say that. I think of when you said, if I quit my job, like every job, my job is too stressful. Everything's too stressful. This is too hard. My job. My. My dream is to quit my job and become a gardener in. In Bali. Like, you would be the most stressed out, overproductive Bali gardener that ever existed. You would ruin your freaking Balinian life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Or whatever.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, kicked out of Bali. Yes, that's correct.

[Amanda Doyle]

So. So the. Because the problem there would be that you switched the outer part of your life without switching the inner belief system that will make you bring that striving self to whatever situation you're in. And you're not. You're just rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think that that's liberate. I think. I mean, for anyone who is listening to this that's like me, please find the liberation in this theory. It's that, like, I always thought I have all of these wonderful things. Things I have all the ingredients of a happy life, of a life that for someone who should be very happy and grateful. But yet I am not happy and grateful. And there is something deeply broken about me. But then I think, no, guess what? It. The science is telling me. I just. You. Whatever your universe is, you acclimate to it, and it becomes your new baseline. Okay. So there's not something wrong with you that you're not feeling this deep, abiding sunshine worth of gratitude all the time, that the only things that are. You're constantly looking for the next thing. So the only things that actually are susceptible to. To. Not this. This hedonic adaptation are just a few things. And one of them is this idea gratifications. If you can find something that is challenging for you, that you get lost in.

[Abby Wambach]

Mm.

[Glennon Doyle]

That is something that doesn't. It doesn't metabolize. Like, you can keep doing it. Like. And also the experiences, like what you're saying about quitting and actually living in your experiences and being grateful for it. And I also think that one of the reasons that I have gratitude for my marriage and my job are because I had a super shitty marriage and a super shitty job. Like, I can compare those things in a way that gives me gratitude because of having had them.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. For everyone who's going through shit. Like, it's the idea of nobody enjoys the sun more than somebody who was in the rain for a really, really long time. Like, that is. Abby and I talk about that all the time. I mean, we are so grateful for having had first marriages that did not serve us because we wake up grateful every day, right? I mean, I'm grateful to be in California right now after my. Our kids are so grateful. Every time we walk by Pride Flag, every time we see, you know, different sorts of people, like, we just feel grateful in a way that people who've lived here for a long time probably would think was wild, but it's because of where we came from, right? That makes. And, you know, this idea of forcing time into our lives to quit producing and enjoy. You know, I'm such a. A Bible nerd, you know, that I just learned this so early. It's in the rhythm of creation, right? It's like the poem in the Bible about, like, how anything gets made is like, you work, you work, you work, and then you stop and you rest and you call it good. And you don't stop and rest and call it good because you, like, ran out of Red Bull. And it's you. You stop and rest and call it good because. Because it's part of the creative process, right? That is part of it. It's not breaking from creating. It's part of it. It's like this idea that the potential for the next thing is all in the stillness and the quiet and the enjoyment of this moment right now.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Amanda Doyle]

And if we don't look at what we've made and we don't look at our lives and our people and soak them in, then we're like our grandfather who's just saving up for one day. Well, and you have to enjoy your people.

[Abby Wambach]

You have to examine the narrative that you have of yourself and the definitions that you have around this idea of quitting. Right? Like, I mean, sister, I think that what you said is so profound. You, too, Glennon. Like, the stillness and the quiet helps you recover so that you can begin again tomorrow. And then the idea of, like, the idea of changing your thoughts around stuff and quitting, those things are doable. This is what I think is so important. As a recovered person, I had to actually recreate a narrative of myself that I was and could be a sober person before I ended up being a sober person. It happened in a very short period of time sitting in jail after my dui. But I had to, like, create that narrative for myself real quick and be like, wait, I have to be a sober person now. That's my path. And that first, like, you can do that work and you don't have to tell anybody about it, right? That's the beauty of, like, changing your life or quitting things, it's not. You're not like buying a ticket into a new life until you actually start doing it. But you can do it privately first.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love that you guys are making me an think about the idea of quitting being internal before it's even external. Okay, let's jump onto some hard cues. I'm going to read one first, and then we'll get into some voicemails. But I liked this. Write in. How do we know when we're quitting? Because it's wrong for us or just because it's hard for us?

[Glennon Doyle]

So the question is, do I want to become free of this thing because this thing is hard for me, or do I want to become free of this thing because this thing is not for me, it is wrong for me? That's the question.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I think you just answered the question.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I think so too, actually.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, I think maybe the way we know. Because I want to quit things, I will say I want to quit things often that I do not quit. I mean, there's. I. Writing a book is hard. Raising kids is hard. Like, staying sober is hard. There are things that I continue to do every day, even when I want to quit. So how do I know whether the thing I want to quit is correct to quit? Because do. How do I know whether it's just whether it's wrong for me or hard for me? And I think the answer is what you just said, sister. You ask yourself this question, which is, what was it again?

[Glennon Doyle]

Do I want to be free of this thing because it is a hard thing for me, or do I want to be free of this thing because it is the wrong thing for me?

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good. That's so good.

[Amanda Doyle]

Also, when you think about a quit or a pivot or whatever we want to call it, or freeing ourselves from something, does it feel like joy? Like, does it feel lighter? Does it feel happy? Or does it feel like a loss?

[Abby Wambach]

I think that in my. To answer the question, because I'll do it, I like to think five years down the road and what kind of person do I want to be in five years down the road? And how can that person incite some of or inform some of the decisions that I'm making today?

[Amanda Doyle]

That's amazing. I think the opposite.

[Abby Wambach]

I want to be a person who has run a marathon. Like, that's what I'm thinking about right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

I.

[Abby Wambach]

And every single day when I'm running these programs, in this training program that I'm doing, I want to stop running. I want to not run anymore. But I want to be a person in a few years that has ran a marathon. So I'm going to keep able to endure those moments where I do want to give up, because I also think managing what you know is good for you and figuring out what is good for you is really important to deciphering kind of the answer to this question.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, let's move on to Sarah.

[Glennon Doyle]

My name is Sarah.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm leaving a stable government job this month to pursue my career in art. It's something that's taken a lot of time for me to realize that this is what I want to do, and I'm excited about it, but I'm mostly terrified and overwhelmed and feeling like I'm not fully ready or fully established enough to do this. But I also feel that it's necessary, and I know that I need to take risk and jump in with both feet. I'm just having a hard time trusting myself and trusting the people that are offering me their help. So I'm wondering if you're able to speak to any of these feelings. Thanks so much, and I hope you both have a good day.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, my gosh. That's so cool, by the way.

[Abby Wambach]

Yay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

So Beretta.

[Abby Wambach]

So brave.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so interesting that she's kind of framing it as, like, she's quitting her job. So could she. Should she quit her job or should she not quit? But the. The truth is, it by. If she stayed in her job, she'd also be quitting in a way, because she said that she's been excited and preparing and her heart wants this art thing for so long that she'd be quitting that if she stayed at her job. So it's just like a different way of framing it to say, which one do you want to quit, Sarah? It sounds like you're deciding that being free of the one allows you to not quit the other. And that sounds amazing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Let's just frame everything that way, sister. Let's frame every decision as it's quitting either way.

[Glennon Doyle]

So.

[Amanda Doyle]

So you quit the job or you quit your dream of art? Like, which quit? Which quit? So it's like when people say, you know, I. I want to leave this toxic relationship, but it just. It's too hard. It's too hard to leave. And it's like, well, isn't it hard to stay? Like, it's hard either way. Are you gonna quit the relationship, or are you gonna quit your idea that you deserve to be loved? Well.

[Glennon Doyle]

Mm.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right. It's like, I'M too scared to say the hard thing. And it's like, yeah, saying the hard thing and rocking the boat is hard, but. But so is, you know, swallowing it and slowly dying inside. So which hard are you gonna pick? So, Sarah, we. We can do hard things. Think you picked the right quit.

[Glennon Doyle]

Also, just a note on her saying that she's not fully ready or she doesn't know if she has enough experience. I would say, Sarah, be like a man and assume. Assume that you are qualified and ready and prepared for all of the things. I mean, the. The. I forget what the statistic is. It's like, after reading qualifications for a job, it's something like 41% of women will not apply for it because they've read the qualifications and they have deemed themselves unqualified. Whereas the. With the people with the exact same level of qualifications who are men, will say, yeah, good, I got it. So don't. Don't call yourself out. You are more than ready. No one's ever 100% ready. Go get it and then share your art with us.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And being terrified. Being terrified. Just know this because I quit my job five years ago. Being terrified is a constant for a pretty long while.

[Amanda Doyle]

So.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's just nobody says that. Like, I think that that's, like, such a disservice that we. We give people. Oh, yeah. Like, just focus on the positive. Like, you're gonna be terrified. You're probably gonna feel really overwhelmed, and you're probably gonna question this choice for a while, no matter what. And so just like, settle into that and just expect that. Because if you can, expect that goodness will come, it just will. I just know it.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's the right kind of hard, right kind of hard.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, let's move on to Bridget. Hi there.

[Abby Wambach]

This is Bridget Brennan. Thank you for doing everything that you do. And what I've been struggling with lately is all the change with my teenage daughter. The big one that has shown up for us is my younger daughter is a junior. She plays club soccer, has played her whole life since she was six years old. She is on a nationally ranked team. We live in Michigan, and the first team won state cup two years in a row. And she wants to quit in her final year. Her senior year is called soccer. And I tried to beg her, I tried to punish her, I tried to bribe her, and she is just really digging in her heels that she doesn't enjoy it anymore. And I know that that is tough for her to do, and it's probably the right thing for her to do is quit. But I just am so entrenched in this life, and I feel embarrassment and a little bit of shame with all those soccer parents and not being a part of that group anymore. So I really just appreciate some words of wisdom. Thank you so much.

[Amanda Doyle]

So, Abby, I think as the soccer resident expert, you might want to jump in. I just want to say real quick that I love Bridget's honesty. I love that she freaking admitted that she bribed and threatened her child. I mean, Bridget, yes to that kind of honesty. Yes to admitting that sometimes it's like you don't want your kid to quit something because it's your life that they're messing up. Just. Yes to Bridget. Abby, what do you think?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I'm all for kids and girls especially to play sports. I think that it's breakthrough for so many things. It gives. It gives little girls, and however you fall in the gender lines, it gives young kids more confidence, self esteem, all of those things. But if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it. You can't force your kid to do something because it's giving you an identity. Like, that's just. We can't be living vicariously through our kids in that way. When our kids do something great, I really force myself to say, I'm so happy for you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because, yeah, you do do that.

[Abby Wambach]

It separates myself and my impact with them and their. Whatever it is that we're celebrating.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because when we say. Because when we say I'm proud of you, then they think, oh, I gotta keep doing this thing to make my mom proud. Yeah. To me, I think what I hear Bridget saying is that they've been through a lot with this decision. Doesn't sound impulsive. It sounds like she has, you know, gone through a lot of checking to make sure that her daughter is saying this is the wrong thing for her and not just a hard thing for her. And it sounds like her daughter knows what she wants. I mean, we think all the time about, you know, maybe looking to the future, maybe looking to the future and deciding what Bridget wants her little girl or her big girl to be basing her decisions upon. And if this girl is willing to disappoint her team, disappoint her mother, disappoint all of these people so that she doesn't disappoint herself.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can't imagine how hard it is for Bridget. I mean, I'm just. My heart is in knots thinking about the actual real grief and mourning that you would have whenever you have. You know, it's hard not to dream through your kids. When we're being totally honest, we have these dreams for them. We see them. We see their they're 10 years ahead self, just like we see our 10 years ahead self. I think it's really. I think there's a major loss there in terms of what they've been building, what the. The. The community they've been building. The fear that, will she regret it? Should I make her? Because maybe this is her gift, and I'm allowing her to. I'm allowing her to step away from her gift. And will she come back in five years and say, why did you let me give that up? I was so good. That was my thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

That.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I just think I understand why it's so hard, and I understand why it's a deep grieving process for losing your dream on behalf of your kid and letting them have their own dream instead. That's. That's really, I think, probably hard and probably like the whole crux of parenting. Letting your kids have the life they choose rather than the life that you were building and already attached to, that you had planned for them.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, you know what we say? You know what we say, babe? My job as your parent is to help you create the truest, most beautiful life you can imagine. So here is the truest, most beautiful life I have imagined for you. Let's go get it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm gonna do everything I can to make all my dreams for you come true.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Please join my dreams for you.

[Abby Wambach]

The paradox of this, too, is that Bridget wants to have raised a daughter who can stand up on her own two feet and say the thing that she needs to say to get the life that she wants. And here she's doing it right.

[Amanda Doyle]

It worked. It worked too well. Good news, bad news, Bridge. Your girl's a badass. You did a good job, Bridge.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

How sad when our children become the people we dreamed they'd be.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

They actually do what we taught them to do. Okay, our next right thing this week is this. I'm not going to give you any homework. It's too hard. We're going to quit hard things today because we can quit hard things. There is no homework. You've already done your homework, which is that you learned this. Tell us one more time, sister. What? The definition. The original definition.

[Glennon Doyle]

The original definition of quitting was to be set free from. To be calm, to rest. That was the origin of quit for 700 years until, like, a hot minute ago.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. So is there anything you need to set yourself free from. And when things get too hard this week, don't forget, we can quit Hard Things. Love you. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode today. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.