REAL Self-Care: Burnout Is Not Your Fault & the Way Out with Dr. Pooja Lakshmin (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Can Do Hard Things
Episode: REAL Self-Care: Burnout Is Not Your Fault & the Way Out with Dr. Pooja Lakshmin (Best Of)
Release Date: July 6, 2025

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Introduction to Real Self-Care

In this insightful episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach delve deep into the concept of self-care, challenging conventional notions and introducing a transformative approach with the help of guest expert Dr. Pooja Lakshman. The discussion centers on redefining self-care to address burnout and foster genuine well-being.

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Challenging Conventional Self-Care

Abby Wambach kicks off the conversation by boldly stating, “everything you know and we've been sold about self care is horseshit” ([02:10]). This provocative stance sets the tone for a critical examination of mainstream self-care practices, such as juice cleanses, bubble baths, yoga, and meditation, which are often commodified and marketed as quick fixes.

Dr. Pooja Lakshman supports this critique by explaining that these “faux self-care” methods are superficial solutions that fail to address underlying systemic issues. She emphasizes, “you can't meditate your way out of a 40-hour work week with no childcare” ([05:48]).

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Defining Faux Self-Care vs. Real Self-Care

Dr. Lakshman introduces the concept of faux self-care—external tools and activities prescribed by society that individuals are urged to adopt. Examples include yoga classes, meditation apps, and essential oils. These methods are often accessible only to those with sufficient financial resources and tend to offer temporary relief rather than long-term solutions.

In contrast, real self-care is described as an internal, personalized decision-making process rooted in one’s values, principles, boundaries, compassion, and power. This form of self-care evolves with different life stages and fosters sustainable well-being by addressing both personal and systemic challenges.

Notable Quote:

“Real self care is actually an internal decision making process that's threaded through all of the decisions in your life, the little decisions and the big decisions.” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([12:25])

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The Origins and Lineages of Self-Care

Dr. Lakshman traces the origins of self-care to two main lineages:

1. Social Justice Movement: Pioneered by Black and LGBTQ+ thinkers like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, emphasizing self-care as self-preservation and an act of political resistance ([08:03]).

2. Psychiatry: In the 1950s, psychiatrists used the term in inpatient settings to refer to patients' autonomy over daily decisions, such as choosing clothes or meals ([08:03]).

These origins highlight self-care as both a personal and political act, challenging the simplistic, consumer-driven self-care narratives prevalent today.

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Core Principles of Real Self-Care

Dr. Lakshman outlines four key principles essential for real self-care:

1. Boundaries ([26:30]): Establishing limits to protect one’s time, energy, and well-being.

   • Quote: “The pause is the agency.” – Abby Wambach ([28:50])

   • Explanation: Instead of immediately responding to requests, taking a moment to reflect aligns responses with personal values, reducing guilt and enhancing agency.

2. Values ([41:08]): Identifying and embodying personal values that guide decision-making and behavior.

   • Quote: “A value is something to embody. It's a verb or an adverb, it's not a noun.” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([42:21])

   • Technique: The "Dinner Party Exercise" helps individuals uncover their true values by envisioning an ideal dinner party scenario.

3. Self-Compassion ([51:43]): Cultivating a kind and understanding relationship with oneself to counteract negative self-talk and martyrdom.

   • Quote: “Self compassion is essentially talking to yourself.” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([51:50])

   • Strategy: Using cognitive diffusion techniques to separate oneself from negative thoughts and emotions, allowing them to pass without judgment.

4. Power ([Not Explicitly Timestamped]): Recognizing and reclaiming personal power in interactions and decisions, shifting dynamics from external expectations to internal authority.

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Practical Strategies for Implementing Real Self-Care

1. Setting and Maintaining Boundaries:

   • The Pause: Implementing a moment of reflection before responding to requests helps align actions with personal values and reduces knee-jerk, conditioned responses.

   • Example: Dr. Lakshman shares her mentor’s advice to let voicemails go to voicemail, allowing time to decide whether to respond immediately or later ([27:33]).

2. Identifying and Embracing Personal Values:

   • Exercise: The "Dinner Party Exercise" encourages individuals to articulate their values through creative visualization, moving beyond superficial answers like "family" to actionable traits like "creativity" or "allowing."

   • Adaptability: Recognizing that values evolve with different life stages ensures that self-care remains relevant and effective ([41:08]).

3. Cultivating Self-Compassion:

   • Cognitive Diffusion: A technique from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) that helps individuals detach from negative thoughts, viewing them as transient and separate from their true selves ([30:13]).

   • Martyr Mode Awareness: Understanding and combating the tendency to prioritize others’ needs over one’s own, fostering a healthier self-relationship ([53:09]).

4. Reclaiming Personal Power:

   • Agency in Decision-Making: Taking control over one’s actions and decisions, rather than succumbing to external pressures and societal expectations.

   • Example: Dr. Lakshman recounts a patient's refusal to accept help, illustrating the necessity of practicing small acts of boundary-setting and receiving support before tackling larger challenges ([56:57]).

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Addressing Systemic Barriers to Real Self-Care

The conversation highlights how systemic issues like capitalism and white supremacy perpetuate individualistic and commodified self-care practices. These systems place the burden of well-being on individuals while neglecting structural changes that could alleviate many sources of burnout and stress.

Abby Wambach poses a critical question, “Is it like, did whiteness get in and just teach us how to be so individual and disconnected from each other?” ([58:12]), emphasizing the need to shift from isolation to community-oriented self-care practices.

Dr. Lakshman responds by acknowledging the intertwined nature of white supremacy and capitalism, advocating for self-care practices that center humanity and foster authentic, respectful relationships ([60:53]).

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Practical Applications and Personal Reflections

The hosts and Dr. Lakshman share personal anecdotes and reflections to illustrate the principles of real self-care:

• Glennon Doyle discusses her transition from a disciplined tool-based self-care approach to a values-driven one, highlighting the importance of aligning actions with personal values for genuine well-being ([17:14]).

• Abby Wambach reflects on the cultural conditioning that equates self-care with purchasing wellness products, advocating for deeper introspection and community engagement instead ([19:59]).

Notable Quote:

“Real self care is something that comes from inside of us as opposed to something outside that we are clinging to.” – Abby Wambach ([62:25])

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Conclusion and Call to Action

The episode concludes with a powerful call to embrace real self-care by:

1. Finding Quiet Time: Allocating moments for introspection to identify personal values.
2. Establishing Boundaries: Implementing the pause technique to respond thoughtfully to requests.
3. Practicing Self-Compassion: Using cognitive diffusion to manage negative self-talk.
4. Embracing Community: Reaching out and accepting help to build authentic relationships.

Abby Wambach encourages listeners, “If it's just a little place to start, just find some quiet time. Think about your values... send them to us” ([62:25]), fostering a supportive community focused on genuine self-care practices.

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Key Takeaways:

• Faux Self-Care often serves as a superficial, commodified solution that fails to address deeper systemic and personal issues.

• Real Self-Care is an individualized, principle-based approach that focuses on internal decision-making, aligning actions with personal values, and fostering authentic connections.

• Setting Boundaries, Identifying Values, and Practicing Self-Compassion are foundational elements of sustainable well-being.

• Systemic Change is essential for alleviating burnout, recognizing that individual well-being is intertwined with broader societal structures.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “everything you know and we've been sold about self care is horseshit.” – Abby Wambach ([02:10])

• “you can't meditate your way out of a 40-hour work week with no childcare.” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([05:48])

• “Real self care is actually an internal decision making process that’s threaded through all of the decisions in your life...” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([12:25])

• “The pause is the agency.” – Abby Wambach ([28:50])

• “A value is something to embody. It’s a verb or an adverb, it’s not a noun.” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([42:21])

• “Self compassion is essentially talking to yourself.” – Dr. Pooja Lakshman ([51:50])

• “Real self care is something that comes from inside of us as opposed to something outside that we are clinging to.” – Abby Wambach ([62:25])

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This episode serves as a compelling exploration of self-care, urging listeners to move beyond superficial practices and engage in deeper, more meaningful approaches to well-being.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Summer break is a time for fun, but it can also be a challenging time for kids. Many lose valuable reading skills over the summer months and some may struggle with.

[Abby Wambach]

Their mental well being.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

That's why Macy's is proud to support Reading Is Fundamental and nami, two nonprofits dedicated to helping children and young adults prepare for their best school year yet. Now through September 14th, you can join.

[Abby Wambach]

Us in supporting these important causes. Donate at checkout in store by rounding up your purchase or make an online.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Donation@Macy'S.Com purpose your support helps provide critical reading resources and mental health support for kids and teens across the country. Let's work together to help every student head back to school with confidence and the tools they need to succeed. Donate today@macy's.com purpose.

[Abby Wambach]

Well loves, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things Today. We are going to prove to you that everything you know and we've been sold about self care is horseshit. Okay? We are going to figure out why we have the wrong ideas about self care, what we can do to replace those wrong ideas and get some things in place that will really make us feel like we are caring for ourselves. Okay? The person who's going to help us do that because we sure as hell know I am not going to lead us in that discussion is Dr. Pooja Lakshman who is a board certified psychiatrist, author, keynote speaker, contributor to the New York Times. Her debut book Real Self Care Crystals, Cleanses and Bubble baths not included.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good.

[Abby Wambach]

Don't turn this off. You get to keep Your crystals. Okay, so just stay with us. Real Self Care is an NPR Best Book of 2023 and a National bestseller. Pooja serves as a clinical assistant professor of psychiatry at George Washington University School of Medicine and maintains an active private practice where she treats women struggling with burnout, perfectionism, disillusionment, as well as clinical conditions like depression, anxiety and adhd. You are in the right place, Pooja. Thank you for being here.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Thank you so much for having me, both of you. I'm so excited to be here.

[Glennon Doyle]

How would you like us to refer to you?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

You know what? Please call me Pooja. I like to be Pooja. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, great. Okay. So, Pooja, let me tell you how I found you. My therapist sent me an interview that you had done. Okay. Yes. So I was on a therapy session and I had spent a lot of time complaining to my therapist. I. I hold her responsible for all self care problems because I feel like. So she. I was talking to her about how I feel like self care is like recycling. There are these huge forces and companies that are destroying our planet and they could change and our planet would not be destroyed. But because they don't want to change, they instead create little programs for us like a triangle about recycling. And then I lay in bed feeling guilty that I didn't put my glass bottle in the right bucket. And that's why the planet is burning. There are forces and industries that are profiting off the planet's demise. And the way they abdicate themselves of responsibility is by making it feel like it's an individual problem. And I feel like that's what self care is. You know, they say most of the world has support systems and America has women. The fact that we're all exhausted maybe is not because we're not drinking enough green juice. It's maybe because there are larger forces that are exhausting us. Is self care like recycling, Pooja?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yes, 100%. And I love that you were starting off this whole conversation with that metaphor because it's the perfect metaphor. It's the way in which all of the structures that we live in have exonerated themselves from responsibility and put everything onto the individual.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

The perfect example is the patient that comes in to see me and she says, you know, Dr. Lechman, I'm. I'm stressed out. I'm burnt out. I'm not eating well, I'm not sleeping well. And I feel like it's my fault because I have the meditation app. I have the meditation app that I know I'm supposed to be using, but the last thing I want to do at the end of the day is meditate. Like, all I can do is just binge watch Netflix. That's like all my brain is capable of. And I kind of feel like I'm constantly screaming at my patients, like, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. When of the other things that I like to say is that you can't meditate your way out of a 40 hour work week with no childcare. That's not how wellness is supposed to work. And we live in a country where 30 million Americans don't have health insurance. Good luck finding a therapist, right?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh my gosh.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Nobody's taking new patients.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's impossible right now.

[Abby Wambach]

We experienced that recently.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

It's so hard. If you're even lucky enough to have insurance that will reimburse you. And one out of four workers can't even take a paid sick day. Right. Like, it's, it's just outrageous. We don't have paid parental leave. And so the fact that we're kind of told, especially as women. Oh, like they're there. Here's some essential oils. Like, take a bath, you're fine. I mean, it's condescending at best.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

And at worst, it's manipulative and predatory.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Thank you for saying that. It is condescending at best. You're a woman listening. You're taking care of your parents, you're taking care of your kids. You don't have leave. You are carrying the mental load of your family. And you're laying in bed and you're like, why am I so tired? And then you beat yourself up because. Well, it's probably because I didn't make it to yoga today. Yeah, because that's what you're being told. And by the way, all of these things that we're being told will make us feel better also cost money.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

So there's an industry created. What really need most people need is some financial help. Instead they end up buying more things to, to get the piece. So tell us, what is faux self care? Let's just frame it. What are the things we have been told we have to do that will be called self care, when in fact maybe we need to say not that.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yes. Before we go there. I want to take a pit stop though and just give a shout out to sort of the lineage of self care and the lineage of what I'm calling real self care. When I was writing the book, I was doing research on this term and like trying to figure out what is the acne academic basis? And it's actually really interesting because there's two lineages. One is the social justice movement. So black queer thinkers like Audre Lorde bell hooks, who in the 1950s and 1960s really put this on the map, in particular for marginalized communities that were Audre Lorde said, self care is self preservation. And that takes on a very specific meaning, especially if you're a black person or a queer person living in a world that is like actively trying to kill you, that means something different. And this part was really fascinating to me. The other lineage or place that self care was used was actually in psychiatry. Shockingly, in the 1950s, psychiatrists started using the word unlocked inpatient units for the decisions that patients, involuntary patients could make in their lives. Like while they were on the unit. So picking out your clothes, what are you going to eat? What exercise are you going to do? And I just thought that was so fascinating because on both sides, like, if we get back to what is real self care, it's about even in this world, that is terrible. That is like stacking so much against us, where your choices are limited. What is the kernel of agency that you have?

[Abby Wambach]

That's what it is, agency. Because when I read that in your book, I was like, okay, so I was in a mental hospital for a while. And when people started talking about self care in like the Zeitgeist, I've told Abby, I know that I did that. I was in a place where each morning they taught us, okay, let's decide what you want to eat. Let's decide what you're gonna put on your body. Let's think about your feelings. Point to this thing. How do you feel? What are we gonna do about it? It is how to human. And in the real world, we're not taught to how to human. We're taught how to adult. They don't want us to human. They don't want us to human. If we humaned, we. We would slow down. We would stop being so productive.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

We would stop buying stuff.

[Abby Wambach]

We would stop buying stuff. So it's not like it's just missing from the culture. It's actually purposefully not taught. So, okay, the origins of self care were psychiatry and then Audre Lorde bell hooks. The idea of caring for myself is not self indulgence. It is self preservation. And that is an act of political warfare. So these very important self preservation human ideas are. Then capitalism comes in. So, like, how would Audre Lorde feel now? If Audre Lorde was like, oh, don't worry. Here we figured out we have all these crystals and bubble baths. She'd be like, what the. How did that happen? Right. Okay, so then what happens?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

So now we're here, right? Where it's like Instagram and it's like the juice cleanses and the essential oils and the bubble baths. And so I wanted to break this down into two buckets, okay. And I call it faux self care, which is the juice cleanses, the bubble bath, also the yoga and the meditation. And before anybody like comes at me, like, we're going to talk about it because those things are bad, right? We're going to talk about it. Yes, but those, right, I call those fo and I say foe because it's coming from the outside. It's something that you have to do. It's another thing on your to do list, right? So it's a product, it's a service, it's something that's prescribed. You know, you listen to a podcast and they're like, hey, why don't you try this bullet journal? And you kind of feel like, oh, okay, let me just do the bullet journal. And then everything will feel okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

And the thing is with dafo self care, if you have the resources, right? This all takes money. It works for a little bit. It's not like it's nothing. It does work for a little bit, but then once life gets busy or you kind of fall off and then it doesn't help anymore. The other thing about faux self care is that it doesn't do anything, not only change the systems, like the larger structures, it also doesn't do anything to change the dynamics in your relationship, like with your partner or with your kids or the people that you take care of. It keeps things static.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Whereas what my thesis, what I'm saying real self care is, is actually an internal decision making process that's threaded through all of the decisions in your life, the little decisions and the big decisions. And it comes from you, only you know what it is. And we'll go through the principles, boundaries, compassion, values and power. It's not prescribed from the outside. It has to come from you. It's different from for everybody. It also changes in different seasons of your life. What worked for you in your 20s is not going to work for you in your 40s and your 50s. And it always shifts the dynamics of power in your relationships. And then that has the potential. Not always, but it does have the potential to be a seed that can shift larger systems like in your workplace and bigger Structures. There's one other piece here that I want to mention because this is, I know this is a little bit heady. That's the other thing. Like this is harder. This is harder than doing.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is why everybody goes towards folk self care is because this one is harder.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

The one you're talking about. Yes. So I want to kind of break it down from a psychological place. As a psychiatrist, we can think of faux self care as tools. Right. A specific tool that helps you for a very specific problem. Running helps me feel more energy. Yoga helps me feel more flexible. Right. It's a very specific tool that you use for a circumscribed problem. It's not bad. Right. But it's a tool. Whereas real self care is principles. And principles are nonspecific. They're timeless. They are a way of thinking and looking at the world. So boundaries, compassion, values, power. That's what real self care is. And that's why we feel so bogged down. Not only because of all of the capitalism selling us more and more stuff ad nauseam, but also because we keep trying to band aid ourselves with these tools.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

And we're not doing that inner work to understand what we actually need. I'll give one more example here and I think hopefully this will like really kind of make it crystal clear. So imagine the person that goes to a yoga class. And I use yoga because I feel like when we think about wellness and self care, that's like everyone's like, well just do some yoga. Somebody goes to yoga class and they spend the whole time in yoga just like worried that they're not wearing the right lululemon leggings, they don't have the right mat, the person next to them can hold a headstand and they like can't do crow pose. And they're just like, oh my gosh, they do yoga. But they feel worse at the end of the class than they did in the beginning.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is me. This is totally me.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

No, no, Abby, it's not you. Yeah, but imagine somebody else goes to yoga and they have had a hard conversation with their partner and they've said, hey, you know what, hun? Wednesday nights I want you to do bedtime. Because I know that I'm just such a better parent if I go to yoga on Wednesday nights. And they've talked about the mental load and they've been really kind of like having those hard conversations about the division of labor. And they're compassionate with themselves in yoga. They're not beating themselves up. They're okay with where they are, where their body is. They've named values they understand. Like, okay, what does yoga actually do for me?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

It makes me feel connected to my body or maybe for them. It's like when I go to yoga, I feel like I'm part of a community. It's different values for everybody. And then they understand that this is you grabbing back power from these oppressive systems.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

That person actually takes in the medicine of yoga. That person is actually there receiving.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

The self care in that class. But on paper, both of those people went to yoga, right?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

So it's not about the thing, it's actually about all of this internal stuff that you do to get to the thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Because if that person, if her principle was I need alone time, I need to pass off responsibility, I need an hour of the day to whatever, it wouldn't matter what was happening in that hour as long as whatever she felt like doing in that hour honored that principle. So it's not about the yoga, it's about the principle that drives you to yoga.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And is it also like we use these things, we use these tools as breaks from our life, from our shitty lives and like what real self care is making the actual life less shitty so that you don't need these constant escapes?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yes. And the caveat that I would say or like the reframe that I have is that we all need breaks. We all need the escape. Right. So it's not that it's bad or wrong, it's that what I'm asking folks to do is like take a step back and reflect on the things and reflect on what it's bringing to your life.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know if you know, but I used to play soccer and no.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

No, I didn't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so I've kind of gone through this really interesting process over the last seven or eight years since I've retired. Where I went from, there was principles around why I was playing. But as an athlete ages, you start to lose a little bit. Like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this over thousands and thousands of practice. So it became this external force kind of pushing me to do these things that felt out of alignment with my values. Right. And so then I retire and I had to completely rewrite and figure out how to have this come from inside of me. The first couple of years I didn't do any self care actually because I just needed a full reset. And then the last couple of years I've been learning this exact idea of figuring out what really I want. So I was the kind of person that just used all the methods, give me every tool and I will do it. I'm very disciplined when it comes to stuff and I will do it to a fault. But I wasn't reaping the kind of rewards that I thought I was supposed to. And so now I think, okay, there are things that I do on a daily basis that I don't feel motivated to do, but it's in line with my values in doing that. It becomes self care. So going to the gym five days a week, really, it's hard for me, but it really is about maintaining my, my health, all of the things that come from working out.

[Abby Wambach]

So you're not doing it in a punishing way. And that when we say, and I believe you about the no bubble baths, no crystals included, what I would say about that is because my therapist was afraid to send me this interview because she was like, just keep going. I know you love your baths. I know you love your baths and your yoga. Okay. Is it possible that the bath, the, the quiet time, the candles, all those things are some people's only time where they give themselves the moment to excuse themselves from the chaos of their families of the world and just sit quietly? Because in order to figure out what we need, what boundaries do we need, where do we need to have self compassion, we actually need the stopping moments. Most of us are morning to night, going, going, going. Especially women that are those things. Maybe women know it's not really about the freaking candle. Like I don't need this $27 candle, but maybe it's the signal to myself and to my family or to whomever that this is my quiet time with myself. And that is a value.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah, absolutely. That's why I don't think that it's either or necessarily because especially when you're a caregiver, the demands are so high and loud that even to set that boundary to take the bath or to go on a walk or whatever it is that is you pushing back. I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't do that inner work of the boundaries, the compassion, the values, the power and understand what it means for you, then it's just a band aid.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Because we all know that person that kind of just stays in that loop, right. And they do the bath and. But then they're still just rageful at their partner and cranky with their kids. Right. And but that they're stuck in that cycle. And the thing is that in order to see that, in order to do this real self care work, you, you have to be able to remove yourself from the chaos and the fight or flight that you're living in currently. Because really it's about decision making and how you spend your time and when you're in it, you can't see because you can't really feel right because you're, you're just like that. And so you need to use those moments of escape they are. Escape. Yes. And what do you do with that escape? Are you just kind of like scrolling Instagram? And I say this with full disclosure of like yeah, I have plenty of nights where I sit on the couch and I'm just scrolling Instagram. That's all I can bring myself to do. And that's okay, right? This isn't meant to be punitive or shaming. It's more like to start a new type of conversation with yourself so you can get to the next place.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

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[Abby Wambach]

Let's go to the next place because and also I just want to say to everyone listening that I think that we can all be forgiven for bowing to the God of Wellness because it's hard to buy all this shit and add all these things to our day, but it's not as hard as actually looking at our lives. So as someone who is extremely cult susceptible, that's one of my major traits. I am constantly looking outside of myself for somebody to tell me how the hell to make any of this. How to feel better, how to make any of this easier, how to do life right. And so it does not surprise me about myself that I would accidentally now find myself in a wellness cult. Okay, so if that is you and you're just realizing right now, maybe I'm not gonna green juice my way to peace. And so maybe we have to do the impossible thing, which is be really still and look at how we're living our lives even in the midst of this shit show world and where we can find some agency. So let's start talking about the four principles of real self care. What's the first one?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yes, so the first principle is boundaries.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh God. Is there an easier way to start.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

With I know I'm so so stay with me because my take on boundaries is a little bit different. I Love it than what folks might have heard before. So I had this aha moment. This was back in 2016. I just graduated my psychiatry residency and got my dream job on the faculty at GW and George Washington University in D.C. and my mentor, she took me out for lunch and she was like, pooja, I have a piece of advice for you. And I was like bright eyed and bushy tailed and thought she was going to give me some magic secret about dosing SSRIs or, you know, and instead she was like, pooja, you don't need to answer your phone. You can let it go to voicemail, listen to what they want, decide, and then call them back. And that was mind boggling to me at the time because I had just gone through medical school and residency when in those days you had like pagers where the pager would go off and you would have this like, PTSD response and call back right away. And I was like, oh, the boundary is the pause.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

And then you can say yes, you can say no, or you can negotiate. Yes, pause is the boundary. Yes, no, or negotiate. Because the truth is that no always has a cost. It always has a cost, whether it's emotional, financial, interpersonal, it always has a cost. And so no is not always accessible. But the pause, you can do the pause. And so for me it was like, oh, maybe it's the front desk and they have some paperwork for me to sign and I can say, oh, I'll come around at the end of the day, but maybe it's a patient. And I know that her ADHD is so bad that if she misses her Adderall for one day, like, she literally might get fired or she might get into a car accident. Okay, I'm gonna call that in for her, right? You get to decide and respond. And let's say in the situation that you're in, you can't say no for whatever reason. Maybe it's financial, or maybe you do the calculus. You can't say no. Then you bookmark for yourself. You say, okay, one year from now, I want to be able to be closer to saying no. And I really like this because one, we don't pretend that no is free, right? It's not free. But, you know, you're actually looking at the cost. You're taking back your agency.

[Abby Wambach]

The pause is the agency.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love this. I'm like, so bad at setting strong, serious boundaries with relationships and people that, like when you just said you might not be able to say no because it has a cost. And then you can Bookmark it for a year later to be like, I want to be closer to being able to say, no next time. That is fucking incredible. Like, that just alleviated so much in my body. Whoa. Okay. Because you don't have to be the best boundary setter right this second. You can be working towards it.

[Abby Wambach]

Abbie, that's great.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

So when we respond quickly, when we respond immediately, first of all, there's a power dynamic. The other person has just made a request. We are in a powerless position. We are just trying to. So then all of our conditioning kicks in. Our people pleasing, our fear, all of our. We have no agency. We are knee jerk responding. That's why later we get off the phone and we're like, why did I say that? Because there's a pause. There's always a pause. It's just often after we've responded the way we don't want to, we're just moving the pause into the middle. And then you can gather what you're. You can remember your values in that pause.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

You can.

[Abby Wambach]

Creativity enters into that pause because you can think of different ways to respond that honor both of you.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good. Can you talk to us a little bit about the cognitive diffusion?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

That. To me, that's just happened to me. I just want you to explain that a little bit before I tell you my story. Right around it.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yes, yes. So usually for most of my patients, once you pause you immediately afterwards, after you hang up the phone, you start to feel guilty. So cognitive diffusion is a technique from acceptance and commitment therapy, ACT for short. That is a tool to work with your mind, Right. To help you deal with hard feelings, feelings that feel bad. So whether it's like guilt, sadness, anger, and the whole concept is that we are not our thoughts. That your thoughts exist in your mind, but that your mind is actually separate from your thoughts. So there's two kind of ways that I explain this to patients and I talk about this. One metaphor is the sushi train metaphor. This isn't mine. This comes from acceptance and commitment therapy. So it's sort of like imagine you're at one of those sushi restaurants, the type where the sushi comes off the conveyor belt and it's kind of going around in a circle. So there's the chef in the middle. So in this metaphor, the chef is your brain, and the plates of sushi are your thoughts, your feelings, your memories, your desires, your ideas. And they're just rolling around. They're rolling through your mind. And we all know with sushi, right, like there's some things that are really appetizing. Like, for me, it's like spicy tuna roll. I love spicy tuna rolls. Every time I see, I'm like, yes, please. And then other things that are, like, kind of gross or scary. Like, I really don't like shrimp that have the head on. And so, like, naturally, as humans, we want to push away from the hard, aversive things and the things that look appetizing, we want to gobble them up. And so cognitive diffusion says, no, don't push it away. Don't gobble it up. Just let it.

[Abby Wambach]

Just let it move.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Just let it move. Just let it go. And again, it creates distance. You are not your thoughts. It's just your thoughts are moving through the place. That I see this come up so often is with feelings like guilt and anger. And the other way that I like to talk about it is especially with guilt, because my kind of conceptualization about guilt is that it's not actually ours. It's coming from the toxic systems.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

All the things we talked about. Capitalism, white supremacy, you know, colonialism. So the. The guilt lives outside of us, or it's coming from outside because we're all sold to these completely contradictory expectations, but we internalize it and make our. The bad guy. So whenever you feel guilt, imagine it as a faulty check engine light on your car dashboard. So you know how, like, you take your car to get service and the oil change, like, everything's good, and then all of a sudden there's like the light that's flashing.

[Glennon Doyle]

I hate that light so much.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

It doesn't really give you any meaningful information. It doesn't tell you anything. It's just there, it's going off, so you can just let it be in the background. You. Guilt doesn't need to be your moral compass.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Okay, so we talked about this recently about there's two kinds of guilt. And one of them is you did something wrong and something against your values. That's a good kind of guilt. You're like, oh, this feels bad because it went. It went against my values. There's another kind of guilt where you went with your values, but you went against the cultural value. So I said no to that PTA meeting. Actually, that's with my values. I know I need quiet time tonight. I know I don't want to be involved in all of the things I know I. Blah, blah. But I feel that check that light anyway, because I have gone against the cultural expectation that I will be everything, be everywhere, do everything. It's a good guilt. But it comes from the discomfort of rejecting a cultural idea that's been placed on me. So it's like a growing pain kind of guilt.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

It's a good growing pain kind of guilt. Yes. And if you've never done it before, it will be really loud, it'll make you feel nauseous, you'll want to throw up, you'll hate it. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. So you talk about this kind though because. And correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like there was a place in the book where you were talking about boundaries in a brand new way that I hadn't heard of before. Where you said if you say no. Okay, I'm making this example up. Your mother in law calls come over. You did not answer the phone. You're listening to this voicemail. Okay, yes is a tool, no is a tool. But a value is I actually take a pause in between. So it's not I always say yes or I always say no. My value is I take a minute, I take a pause. So you have taken a pause, you call back and you say I can't come. Great. You did your boundary. What if you think about it all night and you feel so guilty but also you're mad at your mother in law in your brain for even putting you in this situation and you don't actually pay attention to your life for the whole night because you're gone in this guilt spiral. Is that a good holding of a boundary, Pooja?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

So couple thoughts. Couple thoughts there. The first thing that I will say is when you set boundaries there's two processes going on. There's the very tactical, operational, communicating the boundary and figuring out for you is it better with this person over text message. Maybe it shouldn't be a phone call. Maybe it needs to be in person or email. Right, all of that. But then the other process that's going on is the feelings part. And that's what you're describing. The feelings of guilt, of frustration, of anger. And the thing is the person that you're setting the boundary with cannot take care of your feelings about setting the boundary.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

You need a third party. Whether it's, you know, a friend, a coach, a therapist. You need to take those feelings somewhere else. A journal. Right, journal. You can't expect the person that you've told no to to then come back and make you feel better. And when you find yourself in that place where you're kind of obsessing and ruminating and if it's really impacting your quality of life or your ability to function. That's one of the places where in the book I say when to seek professional help, when to talk to a professional. Right. Those are the types of things that therapy can be really helpful for. To untangle all those pieces.

[Abby Wambach]

Cool.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

But I would say that for most folks, if you haven't set these boundaries before, we can't sugarcoat it. It's hard. But I like what you said, Glennon, about growing pain, because it's the type of work, it's the type of hard that is worth doing. You know, I just was speaking to a group of students in grad school and I was like, you know, learning to set boundaries actually is just as important as the next board exam or the grades that you get in the next class. It's actually. It's a life skill that should be taught. And again, going back to what we were talking about, the beginning of the conversation, capitalism. It's not taught.

[Abby Wambach]

Why would they want to teach that? Yeah, why the hell would they want to teach boundaries to a bunch of women? That's the last thing. Also, if you are someone who's just starting this, it might be an interesting thing. You know, you said working out after the boundary because the feelings come. The hard part about boundaries is not setting them. It's the withstanding the discomfort after the boundary is set. That's what I have found. You could deal with those feelings by writing down those feelings and trying to figure out whether they are a result of having abandoned yourself and your own value or having abandoned a cultural mandate that you are trying to abandon. I mean, you could figure that out for yourself in a journal and then try to grow that muscle that is the one that is withstanding the discomfort of abandoning a cultural idea. You really could figure out what the guilt is coming from. A or B. Right?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Correct. And I think with that, I love making little notes on my phone, like using the notes app and kind of keeping a log of these types of situations so that you remember. Because our brains always forget. Right. We're just moving from the next hundred percent. So if you write down in your notes app. Oh, that. That time when I said no to making cupcakes for my kids school, I felt like this. And then two days later I felt like that. Right. That's a nice reminder for yourself for the next time something else comes up and you're wanting to push back against the social expectations you can remember, hey, I've done this before. And it felt bad that last time, but then after a couple of days, it felt a little bit better.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

And that's how you train yourself, right? Because it really is. It's a type of training. It's a type of working out. This summer, Instacart is bringing back your favorites from 1999 with prices from 1999. That means 90s prices on juice pouches that ought to be respected, 90s prices on box Mac and cheese, and 90s prices on ham, cheese and cracker lunches. Enjoy all those throwbacks and more at throwback prices only through Instacart. $4.72 maximum discount per $10 of eligible items. Limit 1 offer per order expires 95 while supp supplies last discount based on CPI comparison.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

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[Abby Wambach]

Do we make our boundaries before we decide what our values are though? Because don't you have to figure out what your values are before you establish them? Know what boundaries go with your values?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah, let's dive into values.

[Abby Wambach]

Perfect.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Because I think values actually is the hardest one. And that's why it's in the middle. Because first you have to do the boundaries to kind of pull back space. Then you have to work on compassion so that you talk to yourself a little bit better. And then it's the values. Okay, so one of the things that I've found is the way that people talk about values actually isn't totally accurate because when I ask people or patients, you know, what are your values? Well, sometimes people just get really mad at me because they're just like pooja, like, I don't have time. I have to figure out what's for dinner. Like who has time to sit around and think about their values? Right, like, good point.

[Abby Wambach]

That's why you have to have boundaries first. You need, you need space to think about your values.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Exactly. The other thing that happens if you ask someone what are your values? And they say, well, I value my family. Well, I value my kids, you know, I value my parents. And it's like, that's actually not helpful. We all value our kids. We all value our families. Like we're actually trying to go somewhere sort of different and deeper. And so I've found that actually you have to come to values indirectly. Otherwise your brain automatically goes to like the shoulds and the social kind of answers that you're supposed to do.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Family first.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Family first. I have a toddler and I love him. Casey ever listens to this. A value is. It's something to embody. It's a verb or an adverb, it's not a noun. So it's like a value is courage, boldness, risk taking, curiosity, learning. Those are values. I go through this exercise in real self care. It's called the dinner party exercise. Can we do it, please? Okay, awesome. So imagine that you have $200 and you're going to throw a dinner party. What is that dinner party going to look like? Who are you going to invite? What's the food going to be? Like? Where is it going to be? It's going to be in your house. Is it going to be outside? Pretty immediately you understand with that example that every single person on the planet is going to have a different dinner party. And there's no best dinner party either. Is it going to be a potluck where you have your friends bring over food from the last country they visited? Or do you have a friend that's in a band and you're going to have him come play? Or. Or does your mind immediately go to. I want it to be outside and I want everybody to be dancing or playing a game. Or are you thinking about like the place settings and the aesthetics? So you kind of just like let your mind percolate on that. And I know that this sounds silly, but it's silly for a reason because again, we have to get away from like the social conditioning. So you let that percolate and then you just pull out the verbs and the adverbs, like what comes out. Some of the other things that are helpful here is like thinking about do you care more about the people or the food? Do you care more about what people are doing or what they're eating or where they are? Right? There's just so many different ways that you can take this and nothing is right or wrong. So you pull out the verbs and then maybe a verb that comes out is like silliness, humor. You want to look around and see everybody laughing. That's one of your values. And then the real self care work is to take that value and to thread it into your life so you could apply that to your wellness tool. Like, maybe you're somebody who's really into running, but your running has turned to be kind of competitive and too achievement oriented because you have your spreadsheet. So maybe you want to inject more silliness and fun, or maybe you want to inject more community into your running. Maybe you want to find a running partner. But then you can do the same thing also with really big life decisions, like decisions around what do you want to do for work, where do you want to live, who do you want your life partner to be? One of the things with real self care is that so much of this is kind of open ended because as we'll talk about, there isn't just one answer. It can't come from your therapist, it can't come from, you know, an exercise program like it. It needs to actually come from you. And so pulling those values out is the way to kind of make the map. The last thing I'll say on this is I almost wish that there was another word that we could use besides values, because I think values is like too serious. You'd say values and you think of the Bible, you think of like religion and I couldn't figure out another word. But maybe it's like we say values with a little V because there's no best and like the blueprint for Glennon's top three values. And then Abby's top three values are going to be totally different and they're also going to always be in movement. They're going to be changing every week too, and certainly like every season of your life. So this, there's going to be some that stay the same, but then there's going to be some that are always moving around. And that's okay. That's great. Like, I kind of think we don't need to be so serious about it.

[Abby Wambach]

I think people get this because I'm. When you're talking, I'm thinking about the 7 million things that went around that was like, look at this word search and the first four words you see are your vibe for 2024. So I probably did eight of those.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love this.

[Abby Wambach]

But it's interesting, right? Because we understand what is my word of 2024. It's like that is what we're getting at. We're getting at this. What do I want to embody? That is a vibe that is like instead of saying what do I want to do each day? It's how do I want to feel each day? It's an embodied way of being. And it's easier to say, well, I value my children, I value my family, but those are things outside of ourselves. You can value your children the most and suck them dry. If your vibe is love, freedom, understanding, compassion, and I bring that to any person I'm with, then that would be great for my kids. But what you keep coming back to is that real self care is something that comes from inside of us as opposed to something outside that we are clinging to, whether it's a person or an ideology or a system. I want to think about those. I want to think about what are our verbs and verbs and values so good. Okay, what are yours, Pooja? And do they change?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah, they change. They change. So one that's really stayed consistent has been creativity. Creativity. I love to create, like put things together and understand what they mean. I mean, I became a psychiatrist so I love to like see what's going on. Self expression. And since becoming a mom, I think that it's interesting because a lot of those things, normally you think of those as like solitary values. And I've been learning how to incorporate them into parenting, which I'll say parenting a toddler, you know, not easy.

[Abby Wambach]

I remember.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you have any values you can that come off on the top of your head?

[Abby Wambach]

I. I mean I also. Creativity, self expression. I also think the whole crystal world, that that is what people are kind of getting at too. It's like a reminder of magic. Adulting world is so just the real life and real world is so un. Magic sometimes. And so these little reminders of magic, that's what creativity feels to be. It's like this place that I can go to that feels just like this other realm. And I think allowing is a very important one for me right now. The word allowing, I would say, as I try to undo all the control that has kind of gotten me in trouble in my personal life and raising older kids, I think just allowing and seeing them for who they are and not projecting and not controlling and allowing people to be who they are. Is super hard for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so interesting. I'm just, like, having, like, kind of an epiphany right now that one of my values is. I don't know if this is the correct way that you would categorize it, but, like, one of the things that I value is creating and helping our children grow up. Parenting as a verb, you know? Like, it's a value of mine. And so as they've gotten older and they need us less or in different ways, I do actually think that my feelings get hurt because I feel like my values aren't being utilized. I know that that sounds a little bit wonky, but, like.

[Abby Wambach]

No, I hear you.

[Glennon Doyle]

I feel a little like my feelings get hurt more than they probably should because I. I might need to have that conversation with myself. Maybe my values need to shift a little around what the parenting means.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Allowing means. And parenting is a whole thing. Right. It's a tool. All we can do is do what Pooja's saying and embody the values that we hope eventually they'll take on. Right. But that's even a better argument for just doing that. Right. Because they're just watching what we do.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Well, you know what I was just thinking. Can I just riff here for a second, please? I was just thinking what I heard from both of you actually, was some version of being with.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Being with either yourself or being with your kids and sort of witnessing. Right. Not trying to put the control on. Not trying to put your agenda. But. But just being with that, to me, sounds like a value, Abby. I would also say that I don't know that your value is wrong. It might just be that you're in a transition where it's, like, uncomfortable. Like, you don't have the homeostasis yet. Right. Like, you're just trying to get your feet. And so, of course, when we're, like, wobbly, we feel crappy because we don't have mastery.

[Glennon Doyle]

I value homeostasis. I think.

[Abby Wambach]

I think that.

[Glennon Doyle]

I swear to you, when you were talking, I was thinking, what do you value? And I value, like, normal sameness, peace, Balance.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah, balance.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just, like, really?

[Abby Wambach]

I love that I'm gonna think so much about that. Okay, so we're gonna figure out our values, then we're gonna create our boundaries around those values. And boundaries are really. We think about boundaries as things I'm not gonna let other people do. But boundaries are what we're gonna do and not do. So it's not like a boundary would be. I'm always going to wait to respond to someone who asks something. For me, it's like, what? It's rules for yourself. Right?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Correct.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Because you actually can't control the other person's reaction.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. In reality, I'm slowly trying to believe that. Okay, so self compassion, how does this fit in?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah, so self compassion is. It's the way that you talk to yourself. Right. It's that voice that's with you all the time, the narrative. And for some people it's a voice. Some people it's like images or associations. Right. And I include a statistic in the book. It was from Weight Watchers, ironically, where they looked at 2,000 women and found that nearly half started criticizing themselves even before 9:30 in the morning. So as women, like, we're just so crappy to ourselves. So self compassion is essentially talking to yourself. Right. And the cognitive diffusion helps there. Right. Where we're recognizing that we are not our thoughts, we are not our bad feelings and we can let them pass. I like to really call attention to martyr mode, you know, because I think especially for caretakers, you are so busy kind of pouring into everybody else that you really neglect yourself. And I think that martyr kind of imagery is so interesting because it's. It's often the woman who is taking care of everybody else but just like seething with anger and waiting for somebody else to come save her and to come tell her that she can rest. So for me, martyr mode is when you feel like you need to earn your compassion.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

When you believe that only somebody else can bestow compassion onto you, that you have to get it from the outside. And it's just so toxic. And, you know, and I also say that with like, I totally find myself in martyr mode all the time. And, you know, I found myself in martyr mode, quite frankly, with my book tour, you know, of just, you know, going, going, going, and then feeling sort of like, oh my gosh, there's nothing left and you're waiting for somebody else to tell you, okay, Pooja, you can stop. But the reality is we have to give that to ourselves. We have to give it to ourselves.

[Abby Wambach]

I think of martyr mode as literal. It's like a martyr is someone who dies for an ideology. So whenever I think about or see people in martyr mode, I always think, what ideology are they dying for right now? Womanhood being just serve and smile and smile through the gaslighting and just don't require partnership, true partnership. Just suck it up. Just do all the things like it is a true ideology that like has been passed down to us. And there are a lot of people that are actively dying from it. So it makes me think of when you're talking about self compassion, it makes me think of bell hooks, actually, because I think I remember reading that bell hook said that self love or self care. If you don't know where to start, you think about what you're dying for somebody to give you. You think about what you are daydreaming or imagining that someone will show up and love you that way. What would they do? Would they feed you? Would they take all your work away and let you rest? Would they hold you and then you find a way, come hell or high water, to give some of that to yourself?

[Glennon Doyle]

That's good.

[Abby Wambach]

And that is what I hear you saying. Do you have any, like, IRL examples of how somebody would do that? Like if you were sitting with someone that was like, okay, all right, I trust Pooja and bell hooks.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

No pressure to trustworthy people. Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

We're going to trust anybody. Do you have any, like, stories of people who actually made that work in their life? Yes, in little or big ways.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

So I have one story of somebody who didn't and it's kind of outrageous. So I want to share that first and then I'll share the ways to make it work. So a couple years ago, I had a conversation with a woman who. She had a couple kids, very busy life, but had a lot of privilege, upper middle class, fortunate. One day her neighbor, who was a chef, offered to drop off a steak dinner for the whole family. He was like, oh, I have this new recipe. I really want to try it out. I would love to bring it over for you guys. And literally her mouth was watering as she said no. Like, as she was like, no, we couldn't. No, no, no. And to me, that was just such a powerful example of how because we are so conditioned to view asking for help as a weakness. This woman, she actually turned away a bid for connection.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

From her neighbor. That was a bid from her neighbor to create community.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

He would have gained so much from doing that and being generous and kind of knowing that he got to help. And in turning that away, she was actually, she was rejecting that community. And I kind of share this as my answer to how do we do it? Is you actually do it when you don't really need it. You start doing it before four. You're crumpled up in a ball.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Of mess on the floor. You start doing it when the stakes are low. So you know a patient. This is kind of an example from my Practice of a patient who had a young child. Her partner was going to be going on a business trip. It was only going to be a night. Her sister lives in town. Her sister was like, let me come over. I'll come over and help with bedtime and bathroom. And she was like, no, no, no, it's fine. It's just one night. And I was like, no, let's stop. Let's stop. Let's say yes. And that exercising, that receiving, you know, in real self care, I call it microdosing your capacity to receive. Like, because you have to practice. It's the same as boundaries. You have to practice being able to receive. And it also really fits in with the conversation you all had with Amanda about the dinner with her law firm friends. You know, where it's like to create community. Because really, like, what every single piece of data shows is that having authentic relationships is what makes a good life, Pooja. Right? That is the thing. And so to do that, you need to make time for it and you need to be willing to receive help and ask for help.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, but that, what you're saying right now, it's like creating boundaries. Great. A lot of us are okay with that, actually. But the loosening of boundaries is also part of this. And okay, here's what I think. Is it whiteness? Is it white? Like, because when bell hooks and Audre Lorde and. And all of the self care was like a ferocious determination of your own dignity in relation to others. All of these examples you're giving is allowing community a togetherness, a we. But wellness is all individual. Like, I can go through every single wellness strategy that I have been sold, Pooja. And do it all the time and never leave my house and never speak to another human being. It's, oh, yes, oh, yes. I can do my cold plunge. I can do my green juice. I can do my whatever. I could. They're so crazy individual. I never have to ask for help. I never have to meet another human being. I never have to enter into the struggle for social justice outside this four walls. Is it like, did whiteness get in and just teach us how to be so individual and disconnected from each other?

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah, we're gonna go there. I guess we're gonna go there. You know, my thesis is. And I was. I'm not a sociologist. I'm a psychiatrist for a reason. I'm not an economist, I'm not a historian, but I do. I think it is white supremacy and capitalism which are intertwined. Right? And in the United States, like our whole everything is built on slavery and the commodification of a group of people who were deemed to be less than. And this caste system. Right. So it's absolutely structural, it's absolutely economic. I think that's why we need to go back and look at ways of being that center humanity and also do it in a way that is respectful.

[Abby Wambach]

It certainly is an effective way of keeping classes separate, of keeping white women away from everyone else, of keeping whatever. However it's happened, it's an effective way of making us feel like we can better ourselves and perfect ourselves as individual perfection projects. As opposed to entering into the struggle for all to make the world more equal. Correct.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

And it allows the person who is higher up to stay sort of pristine.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

To not get messy.

[Abby Wambach]

Pure purity.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Right? Pure, yes. When the reality is that the things that again and again make a life worth living are the human things, the human bits. But in order to be able to do that, you actually have to trust yourself to make room for it. Because it all. It takes time. Yeah, right. It takes time. It's not. You can't just check it off the list. Like the juice cleanse.

[Abby Wambach]

Pooja. It's so good. You know what I want to do. My poor sister who was so excited to talk to you is so.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

I was so excited to talk to her too.

[Abby Wambach]

We might have to beg you to come back again and dig in this more. But also she is so, so sick right now and she wanted to come and I was like, if you show up for Dr. Pooja Sick and she's teaching us about self care, it'll be humiliating to me. She's just wanted me to tell you that your book meant so much to her. And I think either we will do a follow up with this or we will figure out our values and do one with just the three of us. But I think that would be really so important what you're doing. You all listening? If it's just a little place to start, just find some quiet time. Think about your values. Just think about a couple words maybe or a couple ways of being that we could embody and maybe send them to us.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you can bookmark a year from now and work on being a little bit closer to saying no easier or yes easier, whatever it is.

[Abby Wambach]

Self compassion.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good. I love this conversation. Thank you so much.

[Abby Wambach]

And by the way, Pod Squad, I just want to tell you this. If you're wondering if you can trust this lady here with us, I asked her to come on this podcast in December. I Think. And I got a message back from Pooja's people saying she's actually in self care mode right now or. Or she's taking her break and so she can't do it. And I thought, wow. I mean, Pooja, I'm going to tell you, I don't think anyone has said no to the podcast yet.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I was like, yeah, but you were so.

[Abby Wambach]

Believe her. I was amazed.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also it gave you a new way of saying no.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

I know, I was so.

[Abby Wambach]

I was actually really deeply moved by it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. We talked about it. She's like, this was so important and what a beautiful exercise. And modeling for Glennon, for me, on like a beautiful way of saying no. But it was like, not now.

[Abby Wambach]

The pods.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was so great.

[Abby Wambach]

But like no POD squatters, that when you do say no, there is a ripple effect. Like people watch and think, oh my God, you can do that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Wait, what? Nos can be freaking inspiring.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Is all.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's what I'm saying for sure.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you, Pooja.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

Oh, well, thank you for that. And just know that I was. My heart was beating out of my chest when I said that. That was an edge for me. Certain. And I'm proud of myself.

[Abby Wambach]

You should be.

[Dr. Pooja Lakshman]

I'm proud of myself for it. So thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, the vibration taught us a very valuable lesson, so it's really great.

[Abby Wambach]

All right, POD squad, go forth and say no.

[Glennon Doyle]

Go forth and say no.

[Abby Wambach]

See you next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much, much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman. The show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.