Sara Bareilles: How to Remember Yourself (Best Of)

Summary

Summary of "Sara Bareilles: How to Remember Yourself (Best Of)" Episode of "We Can Do Hard Things"

Release Date: December 26, 2024

Introduction and Warm Welcome

In this heartfelt episode of "We Can Do Hard Things," hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle enthusiastically welcome Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles. The hosts express immense admiration for Sara, highlighting her influence not only as an artist but also as an advocate within the LGBTQ community.

Abby Wambach ([02:20]): "It's been so long that we've wanted this moment."

Sara reciprocates the warmth, expressing her excitement and gratitude for being part of the conversation.

Sara Bareilles ([06:27]): "I'm so excited to make this connection you've made. You have all made a huge impact on my life."

Sara Bareilles' Impact on the LGBTQ Community

The conversation swiftly delves into Sara's profound impact on the LGBTQ community. Amanda Doyle shares a personal perspective on how Sara's music, particularly songs like "Brave" and "I Choose You," transcended mere normalization of gay culture to become vibrant celebrations of love and identity.

Amanda Doyle ([05:04]): "It didn't just normalize, it was a celebration of us."

Sara acknowledges this impact, emphasizing the importance of representation and authentic advocacy through her art.

Sara Bareilles ([05:56]): "Sarah, you have not just touched my life, but all of our gay lives."

Personal Struggles: Anxiety, Depression, and Relationships

Sara bravely opens up about her lifelong struggles with anxiety and depression, tracing them back to her early twenties during her solo year at UCLA. She candidly discusses how these challenges have influenced her personal relationships, particularly her partnership with her husband, Joe.

Sara Bareilles ([26:31]): "I started having anxious episodes in my early 20s... It was terrifying."

Sara shares specific instances where her anxiety affected her behavior, such as avoiding necessary communications, which led her to prolong her studies unnecessarily.

Sara Bareilles ([10:27]): "I was too nervous to call the Centro Studi... So I just went to UCLA for an extra year."

Her relationship with Joe serves as a focal point for exploring how anxiety can strain even the strongest bonds. Sara describes her tendency to attempt to end relationships when feeling overwhelmed, revealing a pattern rooted in her fear of vulnerability.

Sara Bareilles ([17:06]): "I feel scared to separate... I'm trying to work through it."

The Interplay of Change and Help

The hosts and Sara engage in a deep discussion about the nature of change and seeking help. Sara posits that seeking help is, in essence, a form of change—an essential process for personal growth.

Sara Bareilles ([13:57]): "I think help is change... Change is where we grow."

She reflects on her reluctance to ask for help, stemming from a self-reliant attitude developed during her early career as a scrappy young artist facing numerous challenges.

Sara Bareilles ([13:57]): "I have a real 'I'll do it myself' attitude."

The conversation highlights the difficulty in distinguishing between when change signifies genuine help versus being a symptom of deeper issues. Sara emphasizes the importance of self-awareness in navigating this delicate balance.

Sara Bareilles ([20:17]): "It is help and it is a symptom. And all of those things relate to each other."

Embracing Vulnerability and Self-Identity

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Sara’s journey toward embracing vulnerability and maintaining her self-identity amidst life's chaos. She discusses the concept of the "dignity of discomfort," which involves respecting and honoring one's own emotional processes without the need to fix or solve others' struggles.

Sara Bareilles ([34:12]): "Real friendship, real love, real relationship is... to allow someone to move at their pace."

Sara shares personal anecdotes illustrating her struggle with social anxiety, such as her hesitation to communicate directly with service providers or her tendency to appear engaged while feeling overwhelmed internally.

Sara Bareilles ([11:19]): "I think there's something that feels... afraid of feeling stupid in front of someone."

Her relationship dynamics with Joe further illuminate how embracing vulnerability can lead to healthier and more authentic connections.

Sara Bareilles ([35:25]): "This is, you know what I mean? That's one of the things I work with, with my therapist..."

The Healing Power of Music and Art

Music serves as a therapeutic outlet for Sara, providing structure and a means to process her emotions. She describes songwriting as an organizing principle that helps her compartmentalize and manage overwhelming experiences.

Sara Bareilles ([48:22]): "It's like an organizing principle. It makes sense not of everything, but it will just make things bite size for me."

During the pandemic, Sara faced creative blocks, feeling that her emotions were too intense to translate into art. However, she emphasizes the resurgence of her creativity through medication and collaboration, which fostered a supportive environment for her artistic expression.

Sara Bareilles ([50:11]): "When I go back, I try to just keep a voice memo, and ideas come through... I need to just kind of walk forward and lean into that help."

Final Reflections and Takeaways

As the episode draws to a close, Sara reflects on the delicate balance between maintaining her creative spirit and prioritizing her mental health. She underscores the importance of self-care and authentic connection, encouraging listeners to honor their own needs and embrace their vulnerabilities.

Sara Bareilles ([46:44]): "Playfulness, joy, a spirit of like, I like me... maintaining a connection to that little spirit."

The hosts and Sara collectively reaffirm the podcast's mission: to openly discuss life's challenges, support one another through shared vulnerabilities, and inspire listeners to live more authentically and bravely.

Abby Wambach ([58:43]): "Hand on the heart, everybody. POD squad. Hand on the heart. Deep breath."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sara Bareilles ([07:55]): "I get to be the vessel that holds all of that stuff and try to move it through. And if it can offer comfort or connection for someone else, I feel less alone."

• Sara Bareilles ([07:54]): "It's all chaos and it will be forever until we go away. And who the fuck knows what happens then?"

• Sara Bareilles ([09:00]): "We're all just totally winging it here. No one has any answers, and we're all pretending we do."

• Sara Bareilles ([31:11]): "You can just see if it helps, and it might not. There are different options."

• Sara Bareilles ([34:12]): "Real friendship, real love, real relationship is... to allow someone to move at their pace."

• Sara Bareilles ([46:44]): "Playfulness, joy, a spirit of like, I like me... maintaining a connection to that little spirit."

Conclusion

This episode of "We Can Do Hard Things" offers a profound and intimate exploration of Sara Bareilles' personal and professional life. Through candid conversations about mental health, vulnerability, and the healing power of art, Sara provides invaluable insights and inspiration. The hosts' compassionate engagement reinforces the podcast's commitment to fostering honest dialogues, making this episode a poignant resource for anyone navigating their own hard things.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

There'S she is.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, my.

[Sara Bareilles]

Hello.

[Abby Wambach]

It's been so. It's been so long that we've wanted this moment.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my God.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh, you guys have no idea. I'm so excited to be here.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. Let's just start right now.

[Sara Bareilles]

Let's do it. Let's jump in.

[Abby Wambach]

Welcome to we can do hard things. This is a big, emotional day for us, for Sister and Abby and I, because today we have Sarah Bareilles on our podcast. And Sarah, I want to tell you a quick story that Abby and I just decided we would tell. We weren't going to tell the story, but when Abby and I first got together after a little while, I actually had to Sit down with Abby. And by the way, I was just learning, like, how to be in a relationship for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know how to do it. And so I sat down with her and said, here's the deal. I'm scared. I need you to stop talking about Sara Bareilles. Sarah. Sarah. It was a serious talk. I was like, I feel like you get. So I don't know what's going on with your feelings about Sara Bareilles, but I'm uncomfortable with it. This was just dead serious. I know people are allowed to have their celebrity crushes, but we could meet her, and I don't want to deal with what's going to. I just. Why do you start crying every time you talk about her? It makes me uncomfortable. And so this is the conversation that we had.

[Amanda Doyle]

Sarah, I've been to your shows, and I've been a huge fan of yours for a long time. And what Glennon didn't understand at that point is in the LGBTQ community, you're a hero for us. And I'm actually probably going to get emotional talking about it. See, no, it's because people don't remember what it was like before 2015 and before marriage equality happened. And you release an album that had these songs on it, Brave, and I choose you, and you made this video of two couples getting proposal video. And the thing about what you with these songs specifically for me and how they impacted my life is that it didn't just normalize, like gay culture and make people tolerate us. It was a celebration of us. And I think I hadn't seen that. You know, I hadn't.

[Abby Wambach]

From a straight person.

[Amanda Doyle]

Especially from a straight person. I think that that's one of the things that I admire so much about you, is that you're able to talk about the problems that your friend, specifically that you wrote Brave for the anthem that so many of us gay folks listen to and celebrate in ourselves. I think that Glennon at the time didn't realize how important you are to the gay community.

[Abby Wambach]

And, well, I just arrived on the.

[Amanda Doyle]

Scene, so I had to give her the information that she needed. You are an incredible artist, and you have not just touched my life, but all of our gay lives. And by the way, all of the straight people out there who might not have known that this is something that can be celebrated. So I thank you. Welcome to our show.

[Abby Wambach]

Sara Bareilles is a Tony Award and Emmy Award nominated actor and Grammy Award winning singer and songwriter. On Broadway, Sarah composed music and lyrics for Waitress in which she was also the lead. Sarah also produced original music and executive produced the musical drama series Little Voice. She plays Don Solano on the Emmy nominated musical comedy series Girls 5 Eva and stars as the baker's wife in the Broadway revival Into the Woods. Welcome Sarah.

[Sara Bareilles]

This is the greatest already, I feel so. I'm such a massive fan of this show and of the work and your activism and your advocacy and I'm so excited to make this connection you've made. You have all made a huge impact on my life. So mutual admiration society here. I'm just really happy to be here.

[Abby Wambach]

And Sarah, this is.

[Unknown]

You have a crush on any of us, Sarah? She probably gets all three of us.

[Sara Bareilles]

All three.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh my God. Most of the sentences that you say make my little sensitive heart just feel so much less alone. And so. Seen this one? This something you said recently? I just felt like the idea of having to be alive for the rest of my life was an impossible thing to hold. How do you possibly get through so many days in a life, Sarah? Thank you for that. What is so freaking hard about being alive?

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh my God. All of the things. All of the things. And I sit in an extraordinarily privileged position. I have an awesome life from. You know, objectively speaking, I think as a sensitive person, it's chaos.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Sara Bareilles]

It's the fact that we have to learn how to hold the truth of what is. Which is that it's all chaos and it will be forever until we go away. And who the fuck knows what happens then? So like where are we supposed to just sit back and relax and I'm just. I've never been a person who I've had to come to terms with. I think I'm still trying to come to terms with. I'm just not that light hearted a person. I'm just not. I never really have been. I always like to think of myself as being that way, but I'm. I might just not be that light hearted. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Easy breezy is not what you're going to ever land on.

[Sara Bareilles]

No.

[Abby Wambach]

And doesn't it confuse you? I know I've talked about this so much, but I used to sit with therapists and they'd, you know, tell me I was anxious and I'd be like, are you sure or are you just not paying attention?

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Are you sure I have the problem or are you just not concentrating?

[Sara Bareilles]

That's true. I co sign on that. It just seems like there are too many things to be worried about at all times to possibly sit back and kick Your feet up and, like, whatever. I just can't. I can't unplug from it. I'm trying. I'm working on it. Making peace with the fact that if I can at least stop punishing myself for being someone who is a little bit oriented towards the worrisome. But I've learned in my. At least as a songwriter, I get to be a conduit for that. I get to be the vessel that holds all of that stuff and try to move it through. And if it can offer comfort or connection for someone else, I feel less alone. Like, what you were saying, Abby, is that I really reap the rewards and the benefits of the connection that comes with what happens when I share how vulnerable and scared and fucked up I feel all the time. People are like, oh, yeah, me too. And I'm like, great. We're all just totally winging it here. No one has any answers, and we're all pretending we do. If at any moment we're coming across as well adjusted, it's all fake.

[Unknown]

Clinton and I really resonated with your experience of being at UCLA for five years on account of you spent a year abroad, but it was too claustrophobic to approach the people to get your credits for that year abroad. So you just actually went to school for another year when you got back.

[Sara Bareilles]

100%. 100%. I was too nervous to call the Centro Studi, where I went to school in Bologna. I didn't go to Italy and just, like, screw around for a year. I went to classes, I took exams, I did all the things that students have to do. And I got back and they're like, oh, you have to get this information from the study center in order to get your credits transferred. And I was like, no, I can't. I can't possibly call. I can't do that. So I just went to UCLA for an extra year.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, my gosh.

[Abby Wambach]

Can we just talk about that for a second? Cause I just. This is a thing. So what is this, Sarah? Is it social anxiety? What is this thing that makes it so hard for us to just, like, talk directly to a person we don't know?

[Sara Bareilles]

I think it's a little bit of social anxiety. Like, I won't even know the questions to ask. Like, I won't. Like, I'll. I think there's something that feels. I think I'll feel stupid. I think I'm a really. I'm really afraid of feeling stupid in front of someone. I feel stupid all the time, but I. But I'm really afraid of showing someone that I feel stupid. Does that make sense?

[Abby Wambach]

I don't know.

[Unknown]

Yes, Totally makes sense.

[Amanda Doyle]

I hate feeling stupid.

[Abby Wambach]

So you're saying I need something from you that I don't know what I need, and that moment of I need something from you is totally vulnerable, and you'd rather just go to school for another year than deal with that vulnerability?

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. All my friends graduated. I was alone. It was a deep. It's a deep choice. It's a deep choice. But I'm thinking about, like, even now as an adult, I'm 42 years old, and I'm doing a little bit of renovations on this, on a music. Like, a little apartment I'm turning into a music studio. So I have a workspace, and I talk to the contractor, and there's, like, a thing that happens where I just glaze over, where I just feel. I'm just, like, flooded with, like. There's so many things I don't even know or understand about this. And it's not that it's rocket science. I just glaze over, and I'm trying to appear like I'm nodding, and I'm, like, paying attention. I'm like, huh? And all I want him to do is leave. All I want him to do is leave so I can be alone with the fact that I don't understand anything that just happened. And what am I gonna do now? Cause I didn't take the time to understand anything that just happened. So then I don't call him back, and then I start over, and I have another interview with another contractor. So I think I'll try again. You know what I mean? Like, it's not high.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I do.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Every time I ask someone for directions, I immediately go, where do I go? And then I put on my face of do I look like I'm understanding? And then I just go home. Yeah, Right? Or every time anyone tries to explain anything to me, I'm only thinking, do I look like a person who looks like they're concentrating?

[Sara Bareilles]

It's not good. It's not good.

[Amanda Doyle]

All right, so years ago, you made the move from LA to Broadway, and you tweeted about the decision, and you. Your tweet reads like this, I love Glennon Doyle. And she says, we can do hard things. And so here we are. Do the hard things. So when you're down, how do you know what kind of change you actually need? Whether you need to move to New York or break up with your partner? How do we know when we just need change or when we need Help.

[Sara Bareilles]

Well, I think there's an argument that help is change. I think as someone who is really learning to ask for help, I'm really not very good about it. I have tended to be an insulated person. You know, I was a really scrappy young artist, faced a lot of challenges coming up as a young woman, getting told, know, dealing with all kinds of body image issues and what happens when you're in a public facing position. And I think I have a real, I'll just. I'll do it myself attitude. So I think change and help in. In my little world, my little universe might be synonymous. And I always think change is good. I mean, I don't like it. I can't say that I'm like, oh, I love it when things change. But I actually think that's where we grow. It's not healthy to believe there's a plateau anywhere in your future that anything's gonna just finally settle down into. Fill in the blank. That is not what we're here for. It's not what life does. We've been taught that over and over again. So I think that the more we can lean into the fact that it is all fluid, you know, My God, what have we learned from the last few years? Just like you think you know what anything looks like. No.

[Abby Wambach]

No, I could never.

[Sara Bareilles]

The answer is no.

[Abby Wambach]

That sounds like one of your survival strategies. Is it just resisting the idea that there will ever be any solid ground?

[Sara Bareilles]

Well, it definitely feels like. I think on a good day, it's something that I can find comfort in. I mean, I'm someone who started meditating a handful of. And that's such a tenet of. It's just like groundlessness. Get comfy with the fact that everything you love, you lose. Every. Every. It just. That's just what it is. We are. It's sand in our hands. We just. We can't hold any of this. So, you know, that's like, what. What other kind of horrifying, terrifying thought can you hold in your mind at any time?

[Abby Wambach]

Like, it's very excited. Cause I was like, if there was a crush, it's over now. Because my wife is not. Is not gonna subscribe to that idea. She's like, I will hold on to everything.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. I'm sweating.

[Unknown]

I have a question about the change is help, and the help is change. Because you made me think of something I haven't thought about before. You said lots of times when these sisters of anxiety and depression come to you that you try to break up with your partner.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And that you usually do. And that most recently in the pandemic, you have this beautiful partner, Joe, and you tried to break up with him.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh yeah.

[Unknown]

And he said, relax, go visit with your friends and then come back. So that instinct to change, how do you know when that change is help or when that change is a symptom of the problem?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, good. I wonder that one.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah, I'm in that question. I mean, I continue to be in that question of now you were talking about didn't know how to be a partner. That is. This is a big place for Sarah to learn how to like grow up a little bit. I'm someone who has had long partnerships in my life and loving partnerships. I almost wouldn't call them quite partnerships. Like I've had long relationships. And this is my first partnership, which is a different. It's a different entity, it's a different organism. And I think not to any of my previous, you know, boyfriend's discredit. I just don't think I was like available to it. I just wasn't available. I was so protected and guarded. And Joe, for many reasons, I think because of where I was at in my life and just the alchemy of he and I. I mean, I tried to break up with him. I've tried to break up with him many times. And the first time, the first time I just, I was like, the lights went out. That's just, that's what it felt like to me. I was like, I really, really liked you and now I don't. And that it just, it went away and I don't like you anymore. And the lights went out and that's how it feels. And that's what's true. And I remember we were on a street corner and he was like passionate about it. And it was the first time I heard him really advocate for himself. And I thought it was so like sexy. And it was like a little moment for us to really see each other. But he's like, if the lights go out, you go into the fucking basement and you check the fuse box. And it was like, oh, okay. And he's like, if we're not, you know, compatible or whatever, that's fine. But I'm not falling for this bullshit of like, I don't know, I just. It's gone. The feeling's gone. It was just a very immature, like, coping that I had of like, scared separate. I feel scared separate. And so that is a thing that comes up for me over and over again. And I'm really trying to work through it. And you know, Jo is my partner of choice at this moment. And neither he or I know if we live off into the sunset together or not. But it's a choice to be like, okay, let's really not get, let's not do magical thinking about it. This is, you know what I mean? Like, that's one of the things I work with, with my therapist because I'm someone who likes a little magical thinking.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Sara Bareilles]

But it's not always serving the greater good in my life. Wow. Did I answer a question? I have no idea.

[Unknown]

It's beautiful and perfect because it's in both. It is help and it is a symptom. And all of those things relate to each other.

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

To leave the package.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ugh. It's the best. The indoor cam. Well, it's a game changer. So easy to set up. I use it to check in on my pets while I'm away. We love to watch Honey and Hattie and with two way talk, I can even talk to them.

[Sara Bareilles]

Hi honey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi Hattie. And when I want privacy. I just flip the manual cover to turn off the camera and mic. Wherever the holidays take you, Ring. Make sure you're always home for the holidays. So head to Ring.com to find the latest deals on Ring video, doorbells, cams and alarm kits. Ring makes the perfect gift for everyone on your list. It's the best. Go get it, folks.

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You say that it's about being immature, but. But you're doing that for a reason. It could be actually a really wise response to provoke, to test the sturdiness of that connection. I mean, if you say the lights are off and he's like, absolutely fucking not, you're like, oh, that's.

[Abby Wambach]

That is sexy. That's sexy.

[Unknown]

I did that all the time. My first marriage, I was abandoned. I tried to break up with my current husband 150 times. And it was about, if I push, are you gonna fall? If I push, are you gonna run? Whatever we're trying to get from that is interesting.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. Yes. Well, and I think as independent women, there's a certain layer of like self protection that's happening. But also it's like, I think it's a little bit of like an underlying belief that maybe I'm not okay. Like, the wiser thing is to be like, look, you can come or go. I am fine. I'm here, I'm fine. And so let me just stay and see what this is and really talk about where do we miss each other? Where do we disconnect? Why do we disconnect? And now I find that really fascinating, like, to be in a relationship that has a lot of juice, and it's not easy all the time. We laugh a ton. We also have friction, which I have always equated to being, like, an indication of something's wrong, if there's any conflict. But it's actually so lovely to be able to be like. That really hurt me when you did that. Why did you do that? And vice versa. So it's. We're learning. We're like little baby birds. I'm a little baby bird in this sense. I'm like, look at me.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm in a relationship.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yay.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm going to try not to fly away. I'm doing it, so that's so beautiful.

[Unknown]

You're such a baby bird. I wanted to thank you on behalf of myself and a lot of little baby birds who have recently started meds for anxiety and depression. And I just. To thank you for the way that you put that out in the world, and it was beautiful. And you were hesitant to go on them at first. So what was the breaking point for you and what has that journey been like for you since?

[Sara Bareilles]

Ooh. Yeah. So I started having anxious episodes in my early 20s. The first time I remember having disassociation, I was probably in my. In my fifth year of college.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ucla.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Damn you, Italy.

[Sara Bareilles]

My solo year at ucla.

[Abby Wambach]

Can you tell us what does dissociative mean? Just for. I know. Oh, yes, unfortunately. But for anyone who's not an anxious bunny bird. Can you explain?

[Sara Bareilles]

So the way I describe it is that there's. It's a little bit like you leave your body and you are. Your observer, and you kind of can't. I remember trying to explain it to my mom. I was like, I can't stop being more aware of the fact that I'm standing here in this kitchen talking to you than just having the conversation. I couldn't stay in my body and stay in the experience or stay in the room. I was just watching myself have this experience of life, and it was terrifying. And I thought I was going crazy. I thought I was developing schizophrenia. I didn't know. I didn't know what any of it meant, but I was terrified. And I started going to therapy, and I had a terrible therapist, but the act of verbalizing what was going on inside me was part of what was healing. I just started saying it unapologetically, and she fell asleep or whatever the fuck she did. Oh, my God.

[Abby Wambach]

And she was not anxious enough.

[Sara Bareilles]

Not anxious enough. Anyway, this is a Long winded tangent. I started having these anxious episodes very early, and I managed them through therapy, through meditation, through exercise. It was deeply uncomfortable and manageable. And I just sort of chalked it up to being like, this is just who I am. And I'm gonna have these really hard times. And as I got older and wiser to a certain extent, sometimes they were easier, sometimes they went on way too long. I mean, when I look back now, I'm like, I just wish I would have tried this as an option. But the breaking point for me was in the lockdown and the pandemic, the claustrophobia, and this just, like, the rattling of dread was so loud and oppressive. And I really wanted to leave Joe. I really wanted to. I don't even know what. I don't even know what. I would fill in the. I want to leave you and fill in the blank. I don't have an answer for that. I was just terrified all the time. And he was very generous for a lot of it. And we got to a point where he's like, I can't do this. Like, I can't just, oh, it's gonna make me emotional. He's like, I can't keep being your.

[Unknown]

Punching bag, because I would, like. I would just tell him I would vomit all of these fears on him. And it was more than anybody should have to take. And so I finally decided, like, okay, well, this is the one thing I haven't tried.

[Sara Bareilles]

And, oh, my God, the relief.

[Unknown]

The relief of the returning to myself. I was so scared that it was going to make me disconnect and go further away from my spiritual center. I always felt like my sadness was my identity. It's part of how I see the world. My. This layer of melancholy is why I'm a writer. It's why I think deeply about the pain of other people. And I want to interpret and I want to hold it for you. And. And I felt like if I abandoned that sadness somehow I was, like, abandoning my essential self. But I actually, like, came back and I was like, oh, my God, I'm here. Here I am. This person can laugh. I can. And I still have terrible days. I still have. I'm still very much in touch with my sadness and my anxiety.

[Sara Bareilles]

There's not like a blanket of bliss put over anything. I don't feel like another person. But it was a really hard decision to make. I felt like I was cheating. I felt like I was. I was trying. I was skirting some excavation I should have been doing on myself. I was. Yeah, I Was taking a shortcut. And I'm so glad that I. That I, like, took the leap and I'm still on them. And Lexapro has been an incredible tool. Whether I'm on it for the rest of my life or not, I don't know. But it's just a tool. And I just want to encourage people. You can just see. You can just see if it helps, and it might not. And there are. You know what I mean? Like, I just was scared to try, and I'm so grateful that I did because the relief is as wide as the universe.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you for that vulnerability.

[Sara Bareilles]

Ugh. I'm just a crier.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I get it. Me too.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh, wow.

[Unknown]

I remember myself, is what you said. I remember myself. And so for anyone listening who feels like they've forgotten themselves, it's.

[Abby Wambach]

Is that how you felt? Sissy. Because you. I felt like you were getting emotional during that. That's kind of. You felt like it would be cheating, too, right?

[Unknown]

I didn't really feel like that. I'm all for shortcuts, but I think I just. I was afraid I'd feel changed. That, like, the magic of me would be different. Kind of like I'm like what you're saying, Sarah, except I'm way less talented.

[Abby Wambach]

But, like, the idea, like, maybe be more. Less. You'd be less efficient.

[Unknown]

Yeah. The meanness. But really, it helped me remember myself. I felt so distant from who I was and that I was almost a new somebody with all of those things attached. And I feel like it brought me back to me. But when hearing you talk about Jo is so beautiful, and the ways that you have partnered through all of this are amazing. And you said something about him that was so beautiful. You said that being loved by him feels like he can just exist next to you in the pain. And that that love and that presence is allowing someone the dignity of their own discomfort and that. I feel like we could talk about that for three hours.

[Sara Bareilles]

Totally.

[Unknown]

The way that you put that, that that's the reason it feels like when people come to you and they try to fix or they come to you and try to help, it's stealing your dignity. Can you talk about what you mean by that?

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. I had a therapist for a long time, and that was a phrase that she used a lot. And I has stuck with me because I'm a fixer. And it's a real practice to just be next to someone in pain because it's uncomfortable. Not only just from a place of. You love this person so you don't want to see them in pain, but it's also ego. It's thinking that I know better do what I did. I've dealt with this with. I have a close friend who's going through some shit and I'm having a hard time. Not like I'm just trying to pull. And really, that's not for me to do. Like, that's real friendship, real love. Real relationship is, you know, to a certain extent, when someone's landing in a place of harm. Of course, you know, intervention is necessary, but I think just allowing someone to move at the pace they're at, you try to meet them where they are. And. Yeah, Joe's not a saint. He's good all the time.

[Unknown]

I'm sure.

[Abby Wambach]

You don't have to tell me.

[Unknown]

I'm always on the unsaint train.

[Sara Bareilles]

Always.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Well, okay. Just the dignity of discomfort, too, though, for people who use melancholy sadness, pain as part of their process.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

The dignity of discomfort. To me, it's like respecting the process. It's like if we went up to a cocoon or chrysalis and we were like, hey, it's too dark.

[Sara Bareilles]

Wrap it up.

[Abby Wambach]

Wrap it up. Bashing the chrysalis and being like, get your ass out of there. Because that feels uncomfortable for me to see you so smushed.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. And then. And then the freaking. Whatever the. The stage they're in, they're like, well, guess I'm not going to become a fucking butterfly now.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm becoming something in here.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And because you can't handle this chrysalis part.

[Amanda Doyle]

I can't handle the chrysalis.

[Abby Wambach]

I can't become a butterfly.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so hard for me.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Watching suffering is so impossible.

[Sara Bareilles]

But also like, being. Being as chrysalis people, we have to know when to. Not everybody needs to hold the mess either. I'm having to learn of, like, oh, this is. I just am. I'm working through some shit. Give me a minute. Let me go. Just walk this off or take a day or whatever it is. And because it might not be your math problem to solve.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Sara Bareilles]

It's just. It's something like you said in process, but it's really easy. I mean, I, as you've seen, like, I'm just like, vomit everything on everyone at all times and yet often feel, like, totally alone. I'm like, nobody understands me, but I'm like, trying so hard to, you know, share everything authentically all the time.

[Abby Wambach]

Are you an enneagram4?

[Sara Bareilles]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's interesting, though. I have A follow up here, because both of you are chrysalis folks. You both chose people who want to help and fix. I won't speak for Joe.

[Sara Bareilles]

No, you're right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Would you ever come out of the chrysalis to become a butterfly? Would you ever choose to leave the cocoon?

[Unknown]

Are you in a chrysalis coma?

[Abby Wambach]

He's out there for the rest of your life.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, this is my. This is my confusion is because I'm like, all right, so you're having a time, but, like, life has to continue. You do deserve to become a butterfly. And by the way, both of you, because you're both artists, the world needs you to become a butterfly for them to actually experience what you've learned in your cocoon.

[Abby Wambach]

I hear you. I do hear what you're saying. I see what you're laying down. Wombach. I do.

[Unknown]

We are birdies. We are butterflies.

[Sara Bareilles]

Birdies and butterflies. Everybody's got wings around here.

[Abby Wambach]

I just want to ask you, you said my anxiety is usually attached to some unexpressed desire. Ooh, some wish, some resentment that's building something I'm not communicating. Can you give me an example of that from your life?

[Unknown]

Feels true. Feels real true.

[Sara Bareilles]

So I am someone who. My battery recharges in solitude. I need to be, like, totally alone. Not even with Jo, not with friends. I need to go have a nice wander and kind of just feel the edges blur a little bit. And that is a thing that I have had a really hard time learning to ask for. And I think I have some old shit about what it means to be in relationship. And, like, I'm living with someone for the first time. I was 40 before I ever moved in with anybody. I was terrible. I'm like, I love being alone. So sometimes it's just space. It's just like, I need space. I bought an apartment. I bought myself a place I can now go to. Go away sometimes when I have a music studio that you 100% has a bedroom and a kitchen and a TV and all the things I'm gonna need to go just, like, be like, I'm gonna take the dog and go away for a minute.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm record. I'm gonna record.

[Sara Bareilles]

I'm gonna record. I'm working on a project, which is sanity, my sanity. But sometimes it's asking for space. It's just space without an attachment of guilt. It doesn't have to mean anything. It's not space with a capital S. It's just. I just need some room.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Sara Bareilles]

It's just gonna fill my tank. And I don't ask for that easily. And that's something I'm really working on. So some of my anxiety, like, my anxiety oftentimes can feel like claustrophobia. Like it gets really close to that feeling of like walls closing in. Like something's getting choked. And I don't even know. It's not. It's not. I don't equate it as much to like, boy, I didn't tell him that. It really pissed me off when he said this. It's not as much that. It's just like this sense of. It's my spirit that just needs some room. And I'm trying to learn to ask for that more.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a good question to ask yourself when you're feeling anxiety.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Do I have an unexpressed need? Because sometimes anxiety can feel like, oh, I've chosen an inner conflict over an outer conflict. Like, yes. Right. Like there's an outer conflict I need to have and I just keep eating it and choosing the inner. And I need to make it outer.

[Amanda Doyle]

Huh?

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. Because doesn't it feel like sometimes, or at least for me, it's placating. It's like trying to just. It's trying to absolve anybody else of their discomfort. And so what you do is you're just suppressing and eating all of the things that like, what do I actually want? Oh, you want this for dinner? I really wanted this other thing. Well, get two fucking dinners.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Sara Bareilles]

There's no rules about it, but those very, like, rudimentary things for me are new learning that is just like new programming that I can be sovereign in love.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ooh, that's the name.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's the name of this podcast.

[Abby Wambach]

And oh my God, I already have, like, I have an entire album for you of song titles just based on the last 20 minutes. Yeah, great.

[Sara Bareilles]

I'm about to write a record though. Here we go.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, well, we got the apartment, so we're going to have to write a record's going to have so many new albums. Just cuz she wanted to be alone. Exact.

[Unknown]

It's going to be your solitude.

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You said the knowing what you want. But you've also said that this idea feels so simple. What do I want? Sometimes I find that question to be impossible to answer. I can't possibly know.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So do you have to learn how to figure out what you want before you can get to that place where you can name that need?

[Sara Bareilles]

I think it's helpful for those around you know what you want before you start asking for me. That disconnect of not being able to know what I want for something stupid for lunch. What do you wanna eat? You know, not knowing that is usually a symptom of like, okay, I've been like going away from myself for a while. Like for example, in this moment in my life, I have been in post production for. We made a live capture of the Waitress stage production and I've been in post production for that and doing into the woods in the evening and Jo is gone. So I'm taking care of this really wonderful dog that we got together by myself.

[Abby Wambach]

Louie Louie.

[Sara Bareilles]

So I just, I was at this place where I was so. And I know a lot of people listening deal with this where you're just, just like my head is just barely. I. I'm swimming so hard and I just have no extra minutes in the day. Every moment is spoken for. And there's a little bit of a high that comes from that too of like, look how what a badass bitch I am. Like, I can get so much done, but I'm not thriving by any sense of the word. And I realized that I'm just so focused on meeting the needs around me and the expectations and what's being asked of me is that like I go away from myself somehow. Self care is just such an overused. But like those ways that we tend to our needs, that we nurture our beings, those are the practices that very quickly I Think, dissolve. When you just start feeling like it's important that I am this place at this time and I'm meeting this person's needs and I'm showing up with pastries because I'm gonna have a really fucking great attitude today. Like all the things that you're doing that you get off on because you're doing such a great job. And yet I was just withering. I got sick. I get canker sores when I'm stressed out. My mouth hurts, I'm trying to sing and like all those things. And then your body talks to you and you're like, you're not paying attention. You know, it's not equilibrium that's not balanced. So I do think staying in touch with that desire, staying in touch with your wants is an indication of, of paying attention.

[Abby Wambach]

When you're paying attention to yourself and you're remembering yourself, what are the things that make you feel like you're remembering yourself and nourishing yourself?

[Sara Bareilles]

Playfulness, joy, a spirit of like, I like me. That's why I like being alone. I like kind of get a kick out of myself. I like, I think I'm kind of wonderful. And when I lose that, when I get into those really critical minded ideas about all of the ways I'm not living up to my potential or I'm not meeting someone's expectations, I've really abandoned that part of myself that knows how to love Sarah. And not Sara Bareilles, but Sarah, like the person that's like kind of caught in between these worlds. And whether you have, you're a public facing figure or not, there's our personhood that we meet the world with, this role we play. And then there's that like little kid that grew up into that body. And I think there's something really precious about maintaining a connection to that little spirit.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, I love that song.

[Abby Wambach]

May we all get a kick out of ourselves.

[Sara Bareilles]

Get a kick out of you.

[Abby Wambach]

Kick out of you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have a question because we have a little artist in our family, our.

[Sara Bareilles]

Middle childish, very talented, Very talented. Oh, come on. I'm such a fan.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh my gosh. Well, so for a person where you've described life in the world as like chaos, how does music and art make your life like a little bit easier?

[Sara Bareilles]

I, I would just, I would melt into a pool of sadness without it. It, it's like an organizing principle. It makes sense not of everything, but it will just make things bite size for me. So I can take this one experience that's tragic and overwhelming and I Can try to hold it. I think about it as like, these songs are just like. They're little vessels. They're just containers that can try to capture the essence of an experience. And then I move on to the next one. And then I'm impacted by something that I've seen, and I'm trying to capture that and sort of hold it here. But it just makes me feel like I can sort of organize the madness. And that was another thing that was so scary to me about the pandemic was that, like, shit got so big and then I had nothing to say. You know, I was very struck by a lot of artists who had a lot to say, and they were being. You know, they were organizing and they were writing songs about all the things. And I was just like, I don't have anything to add yet. I don't. There's nothing to say. I'm just like, too. The feelings eclipsed any ability to try to metabolize it out loud.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you remember when that changed?

[Glennon Doyle]

Or if.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you remember a moment? She's writing again, So I figured you have a moment where you were like, oh. Or do you not notice that transition back to creativity, back to having something to say?

[Sara Bareilles]

Well, I'm going to be honest, I'm working through some real insecurity. This is the first time I'm writing on medication. And there's a part of me that's like, questioning, is it making an impact on my ability to synthesize and to have a creative output? But when I go back, I try to just, you know, keep a voice memo, and ideas come through. They come through when they come. When I go back and listen, I feel like, no, there's something here. There's something here, and I need to just kind of walk forward and lean into that help. You know, collaboration, I think, is a new. It's a new space, newer space for me. And that's also been really helpful to just be validated and work with other artists who can relate.

[Unknown]

If I can offer some validation on this for you, I was going back and reading a lot of what you said, and when you originally signed with your first record label, you cried. You're so upset when you first signed because you were so afraid that they would take something from you that you didn't want to give. And you. You said this prayer, Please let me remember me. And then it struck me, you know, years and years and years later, when you were talking about your meds and what that did for your life, you said, this medicine helped me see myself Again, without the cloak of depression and anxiety. I remember me.

[Sara Bareilles]

That's awesome.

[Unknown]

And so you are you. And no one's taken it from you. And your meds aren't taking it from you. And you, Sarah, are the writer of Sarah and it's gonna come.

[Sara Bareilles]

Thank you for that. That's really sweet. I did not think about that. That's very meaningful. Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

So brave, that song. Do you wanna tell Sarah? I know you wanna tell Sarah about the concert. Just go ahead. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I don't know if you remember, but it was a concert in Buffalo, New York, and it was raining and a rainbow showed up.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yay. Outdoors. Yeah. I mean, obviously that's where rainbows happen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, it was outdoors. I was there.

[Abby Wambach]

No.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, that's all.

[Abby Wambach]

Your little queer heart just burst into.

[Unknown]

A thousand little butterflies.

[Sara Bareilles]

I totally remember that. I totally remember that.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, that was rainbow during Brave. Brave is about a lot of things. One being saying on the outside who you are on the inside.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Would that be correct?

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. Great. Great. It's a definition of brave from the song. What is something the world still doesn't know about you? Something on the inside that hasn't been translated. Maybe something that's true about Sarah but is not yet publicly true about Sara Bareilles.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh, God. What is something that's true about me? I don't know if people don't know it, but I just, like. I just still struggle with, like, a tremendous amount of insecurity. An extraordinary dedication to not believing in myself.

[Abby Wambach]

Let's change. Let's reframe it. We are just committed, Sarah.

[Sara Bareilles]

I am committed to death.

[Amanda Doyle]

My question is, though, another.

[Abby Wambach]

Another song title right there.

[Amanda Doyle]

What the fuck will it take out, Sarah?

[Sara Bareilles]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

What.

[Amanda Doyle]

What will it actually take? I ask this to Glennon all the time because I don't have any insecurities about.

[Abby Wambach]

No, she doesn't.

[Amanda Doyle]

What I did as a soccer player.

[Sara Bareilles]

I just think that's so awesome, and it's incredible.

[Abby Wambach]

It's incredible.

[Amanda Doyle]

But part of that was because I had so many other women around me throughout my career looking at me, saying, you are one of the best. And so I had that affirmation for a long time. But what will it take? Like, this is my question to.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't think anything. This is. Okay, I don't. I think that's the wrong attitude that you're having. I.

[Unknown]

She humbly submits.

[Abby Wambach]

No, what I'm saying is the wrong attitude. We don't need Sara Bareilles to suddenly be a different person. We need Sarah to keep being Sarah. We need Sarah. Sarah, with her commitment to doubt, to continue to show up and make shit, even in her insecurity, even in her doubt. That's what we need to see people doing. Of course, we don't need Sarah to become a different person. What's inspiring to me is people who continue to be themselves, to continue to not know, to continue to have no ground beneath them and to still show up and be their butterfly selves.

[Sara Bareilles]

If I could reorganize the atoms in my being and be like, a fuck it kind of gal, I would. Oh, my God, I would. I just. I don't even know. I wouldn't even know how to begin. But I do think you're right, Glennon. I was on tour one time in Australia, and I was having a real shit show of a time and a lot of anxiety. And I was in a bookstore, and I saw this book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. I felt so dopey. I was reading this book at lunch, covering the edges, you know, like, feel the fear and do it anyway. But it became my mantra for a little while because I was having these really obsessive thoughts that, like, if I left the hotel, I'd get lost. Or, like, I wouldn't be able to find my way back. Like, it's things that are just, like, not. It's not attached to reality in any way. It has stayed with me where I'm like, yeah, you can be scared and do the fucking thing. Like, you can just let fear be a passenger and not let it stop you from your life. Because I don't want. That would be. The only tragedy that could happen is if I don't engage with the world because I'm too afraid of what it might mean.

[Abby Wambach]

What do you think we're so afraid of? Like, if I'm talking to therapists, I'm talking to an astrologist. I'm talking to whoever I'm asking to tell me what the fuck's wrong with me.

[Sara Bareilles]

Totally.

[Abby Wambach]

There's usually a moment of, where's this fear coming from? Like, what are you so afraid of? And I'm actually trying to figure that out. I don't know. What are we so afraid of?

[Sara Bareilles]

My current therapist encourages me to, like, I think it's a little kid thing. My little Sarah is, like, really scared of getting left behind or being abandoned in some way. She's like, look at her. Get a picture out. Bring her into your consciousness and tuck her behind you and say, like, you don't.

[Unknown]

You just.

[Sara Bareilles]

I got you like stay with me. You, you get behind me and I'm gonna handle this. Wise minded grown up is gonna handle it and you don't have to be in charge. You don't, you don't let the kids drive the bus. It's not safe.

[Abby Wambach]

That's good.

[Sara Bareilles]

So I've been thinking a lot about that and you know, hand on your heart and just like you're not going anywhere.

[Abby Wambach]

I got you, beautiful sissy. You got anything to say before we wrap this up? Because I need to stop so I can go listen to it.

[Unknown]

I mean, thank you. Thank you. You're so wise and wonderful.

[Abby Wambach]

Just wonderful, wonderful Sarah.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I just knew we would be friends one day.

[Abby Wambach]

Here we go.

[Sara Bareilles]

I would love it real now. I really, I can't thank you enough. This podcast and all the three of your presence and work in the world has been such a companion for me in good times and dark times. And it's really, it's important work you're doing and I'm grateful that you invited me to do share for a moment.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you for being brave. Thank you. Even when you're scared.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Hand on the heart, everybody. POD squad. Hand on the heart. Deep breath. Think of your 10 year old self. You tell that baby that you have their back.

[Sara Bareilles]

I got you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I got you.

[Abby Wambach]

I got you. We can do hard things. See you next time. Bye. If this podcast cast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.