Save Your Life By Letting Go (of Codependency) with Terri Cole

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Episode Summary - "Save Your Life By Letting Go (of Codependency)" with Terri Cole

Release Date: April 17, 2025

---

Introduction to High Functioning Codependency

In this deeply insightful episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle, the trio welcomes renowned therapist and author Terri Cole to explore the nuanced concept of High Functioning Codependency (HFC). Terri Cole introduces HFC as a modern iteration of traditional codependency, tailored to individuals who are outwardly successful yet internally drained by their overinvestment in others' lives.

Notable Quote:

Terri Cole [04:54]: "High functioning codependency is for modern life. It's different. It's for how we live now."

---

Understanding High Functioning Codependency

Terri Cole elucidates that HFCs are often highly capable individuals who juggle multiple responsibilities, believing they are indispensable to those around them. Unlike classic codependency, which might involve dependence on someone battling addiction, HFCs extend their dependency outward, seeking to manage and resolve others' issues continuously.

Amanda Doyle [04:57]:
"I always thought that independent was the opposite of dependent. But I think the more that I look at the work that Terry is doing, I see my view as less of, oh, look, I don't need anyone, and more, oh, look, I don't trust anyone."

This reflection underscores the internal distrust HFCs harbor, masking it as hyper-independence to avoid vulnerability and disappointment.

---

The Daily Life of an HFC

Living as an HFC entails constant anxiety and hypervigilance, as Terri Cole explains. HFCs are perpetually attuned to their surroundings, often extending their concern to strangers, as illustrated by Amanda's anecdote about taking a stranger home from Penn Station to ensure his safety.

Terri Cole [09:02]:
"We can become codependently attached to strangers. If you're an HFC because you feel like you can, it's not just your problems and your people's problems you can solve. It's kind of anybody's problems."

This relentless involvement leads to physical and emotional exhaustion, manifesting in health issues like autoimmune disorders and chronic anxiety.

Amanda Doyle [11:29]:
"I have now x-rayed everyone's emotional state and I come home exhausted... I'm mad that I can't stop that leakage of my energy."

---

Barriers to Intimacy and Relationship Struggles

HFCs often struggle with genuine intimacy due to their incessant need to fix and manage others' lives. This behavior creates superficial relationships where true emotional connections are scarce.

Terri Cole [12:15]:
"When we're managing the crap out of our environment and the people in our environment, it's not that likely that we are asserting what we really want or how we really feel about something."

Amanda shares her frustration with her husband's lack of engagement in her emotional landscape, highlighting the imbalance HFCs introduce into relationships.

---

The Path to Recovery: Letting Go and Setting Boundaries

Terri Cole emphasizes that recovery from HFC involves a profound shift from over-functioning to interdependency, where relationships are based on mutual support rather than one-sided maintenance.

Terri Cole [07:01]:
"Interdependency actually is the opposite of, or the counter to codependence."

Key steps in this recovery process include:

1. Raising Awareness: Understanding and identifying HFC behaviors.
2. Setting Boundaries: Establishing emotional and practical limits to protect one's energy.
3. Emotional Self-Regulation: Developing a stable internal baseline to handle external stressors without overextending.

Terri Cole [16:11]:
"We are burnt out. We are out of juice. We see it. So what comes into my office is people with autoimmune disorders, TMJ and then bigger ones, cancer... Can't sleep is a huge one."

---

Practical Tools and Strategies for HFCs

Terri Cole offers actionable strategies for HFCs seeking recovery:

• Mindfulness and Meditation: Incorporating short, daily practices to cultivate stillness and self-awareness.

Terri Cole [28:22]:
"Meditating, or mindfulness practices... it doesn't have to. It can be literally 10 minutes in the morning."

• Boundary Setting: Learning to say no and prioritize personal needs without guilt.

Terri Cole [30:04]:
"No immediate yeses. Abby, we're not doing it. But what are we doing? We're gonna learn how to buy time."

• Emotional Fluency: Identifying and understanding one's true emotions beyond reactive behaviors.

Terri Cole [52:01]:
"We don't know how we feel. Because the moment we feel something we don't like, we get into action, we do something to change it."

---

Embracing Interdependency and Self-Care

Recovery for HFCs isn't about withdrawing from others but redefining relationships through interdependency. This means engaging with others out of genuine love and presence rather than obligation and control.

Terri Cole [47:18]:
"We're gonna take it back and we're gonna bring it in for ourselves and we're gonna stop being identified with how much we do and how much we do for others."

Amanda Doyle reflects on redirecting energy from controlling behaviors to self-care, fostering healthier relationships and personal well-being.

---

Conclusion: Living a Fuller, More Present Life

The episode culminates with Terri Cole reinforcing the importance of self-consideration over platitudes like self-care. By prioritizing one's own needs and emotions, HFCs can cultivate deeper, more meaningful connections and experience life more fully.

Terri Cole [50:30]:
"The redirect is really, Glenn, it's pretty much exactly that, that we have all of this bandwidth that we've been bleeding and that we're gonna take it back and we're gonna bring it in for ourselves."

---

Key Takeaways

• High Functioning Codependency is a prevalent and often unrecognized pattern in modern life, characterized by overinvestment in others' lives at the expense of one's own well-being.
• Recovery involves shifting from over-functioning to interdependency, setting healthy boundaries, and developing emotional self-regulation.
• Practical strategies such as mindfulness, boundary setting, and emotional fluency are essential tools for HFCs to reclaim their energy and foster genuine relationships.
• Embracing self-consideration over traditional self-care can lead to a more authentic and fulfilling life, free from the exhaustion of constant people-pleasing.

---

Resources Mentioned:

• Terri Cole's Toolkit for HFCs: terricole.com/hfc
• Terri Cole's Boundary Quiz: Available on Terri Cole's website as part of her toolkit.

---

Final Thoughts

Terri Cole's expertise provides a compassionate and practical roadmap for those entangled in high functioning codependency. By shedding light on the hidden struggles of HFCs and offering tangible solutions, this episode empowers listeners to let go of controlling behaviors and embrace a life of balanced interdependency and self-fulfillment.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

Finding a great mentor who can really help me level up isn't easy, but my dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So when I heard she had a class on Masterclass, I got so excited. Even though I don't really think I'm ever going to become an actor. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 world renowned experts for just $10 a month. Billed annually, membership gives you unlimited access to every instructor whether you're watching on your phone, computer, smartphone, or even listening in audio mode. One class that has totally changed the game for me was James Clear Session on Building New Habits. I've always struggled with consistency, but his practical, easy to apply strategies helped me finally establish a daily routine that actually sticks. I've been using it every day and it's been a game changer. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] hard things that's 15% [e-mail] hardthings masterclass.com hardthings I.

[Abby Wambach]

Think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think ALMA is so cool. ALMA connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships or anything else. And what stands out to me about ALMA is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that that level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello A l m a.com hardthings it is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can do hard answers to life's 20 questions comes out on May 6th. You can pre order we can do hard things anywhere you get your books or you can go to treatmedia.com you can also join us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys, we're doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it and we can't stand your sadness. So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets. And to support our beloved local independent bookstores, all the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores. They show up for us. We're showing up for them. May 6th. If you pre ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event. Please register for the event by uploading your indie [e-mail] and just click the option that says, I've already pre ordered from another indie. Okay, we'll see you there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome back. We can do hard things. We're back. Terri Cole's here.

[Amanda Doyle]

We are here with brilliant therapist and author Terri Cole, whose new book called Too Much really shows us this whole new kind of codependency where if you've never seen yourself in codependency before, if you think, well, that must not be me because I am dependent on no one, we have some bad news and good news for you. You are likely what Terry coined as a high functioning codependent. And the good news is in this episode, we are talking all about the process of recovery and healing and how changing the way you love will change the entire way that you live with all of your energy and taking your exhaustion and resentment and putting it back into energy for yourself and for your people. So listen to the first episode and then come back over here and get yourself fixed up. Terri, thank you for coming back with us.

[Terri Cole]

Sure thing. Happy to be here, sister.

[Abby Wambach]

Why does that quote resonate so much for you? I want to know what it is about the if you are someone who thinks that you don't depend on anyone, but everyone depends on you, why is.

[Glennon Doyle]

That what a hs a highly functioning codependent is?

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, what does that mean to you, Sissy?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I think what I resonate with a lot is my reliance on hyper independence. I think that's kind of a cornerstone of the way that I viewed myself. And I don't really know how long, how far if I can track it back to, like, earliest days, I think I probably can. But then definitely with my divorce, I think I started that way and then just clocked further and further that way. I always thought that independent was the opposite of dependent. But I think the more that I look at the work that Terry is doing, I see my view as less of, oh, look, I don't need anyone, and more, oh, look, I don't trust anyone. And this idea that maybe I am denying myself intimacy because I feel more in control when I have my own back, because then I'm not subjecting myself to being disappointed. I'm not subjecting myself to the inadequate care that others may give me. So I'm really, I'm very fascinated about this idea of codependence being a barrier, Especially high functioning codependence being a barrier to intimacy. And even though we're constantly pouring into our people, we're not actually filling each other up. And how do we get to a place where we can do that and actually experience intimacy? Because I know. I mean, probably half the people I know and who I roll with are constantly fixing, constantly addressing, constantly monitoring their problem. Meter is never off. They're constant finding the problems, constantly fixing the problems, but the level of relationship and intimacy is not high.

[Terri Cole]

Interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

So how do we fix that, Terri?

[Terri Cole]

All right, don't worry. I got two minutes or less. Let's talk about, though, interdependency, right? What you're really saying, you thought independence was the opposite of dependence, and interdependency actually is the opposite of, or the counter to codependence. So if we look at, and I feel like maybe just let's establish this here, and then we can move into what we can do about it. But why the high functioning codependency? So I'm gonna quickly just say why I even coined the phrase. Because didn't codependency exist before I decided to add high functioning to it? Well, yes, it did. But the problem was in my therapy practice, I had women like you guys and women like me who are highly capable, getting it done, building empires. So if I would point out and say, hey, in that relationship, what you're describing is a codependent pattern, they would immediately reject the notion. Immediately go, yeah, no, wrong. I'm not dependent on squat lady. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm managing all the people, I'm doing all the emotional labor. I make it happen, all the things. So the problem for me was, if they couldn't see themself in the problem, how could I help them get to the solution? Because they really believe. No, it's really just my boss is an idiot, or it's really just my partner, or it's really just my friend. And I'm like, no, man, you are the common denominator in all of those relationships. It really is you. And that's a good thing. And when I added high functioning to it and sort of created this new definition, all of my clients were saying, I'm the problem. It's me. That's a quote, Taylor. But I Will and without shame. Right. Being able to just say, you're right, I'm burnt out, I am exhausted. Right. Because when you think of Melody Beatty, codependent no more back in the day. Right. Just listen. That was a seminal text for sure. I love her. Listen to the interview you guys did with her. But this is high functioning codependency is for modern life. It's different. Is for how we live now. Because back then my clients would be like, I'm not involved with an alcoholic.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Terri Cole]

They literally were still.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm not following anybody cleaning up their addiction mess. I'm not. It's a different version of codependency.

[Amanda Doyle]

So your definition is you're overly invested in everybody else's outcomes of everything at the detriment of your self. So how can we.

[Terri Cole]

Let's.

[Amanda Doyle]

First of all, for people who are self diagnosing, you're going to have to listen to the first episode. But what are high functioning codependence feeling on a day to day basis that the promise of recovery will help with?

[Terri Cole]

So the cost. Right, so that's what we're describing. Well, we're feeling anxious. You know, we have the hypervigilance is absolutely exhausting because we are so dialed into our external environment. So it's not just the people in our lives. Right. I could be codependent with a flight attendant, like my hair colorist. Like, literally, I had no discernment when it was me. I could be overly invested in. I mean, I opened the book talking about being on a train platform in the late 80s, going back into New York City. And I see this kid who's maybe 19, I'm about 22 at the time, and he's wearing like a metal T shirt, but he's holding a little blanket. It's 10:30 at night in like Port Washington. I'm like, what is this kid doing? Like, where are you going? So I chat him up. Billy, he was from Indiana. He was like, oh, I got hired to drive a car cross country and now they just canceled it. I go, where are you going? He was like, I'm just gonna sleep in the station. I was like, what station? He said, penn Station. I was like, you can't sleep in Penn Station. He's like, well, I don't know anyone in New York. I was like, yeah, you do. You know me. So this is how I took a perfect stranger who I met on a train platform home to my apartment with my roommate. We lived in a studio, not even a bedroom.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, Terry, this makes me really trust you and your work. I see how far we've come.

[Terri Cole]

You see what I mean? So we can become codependently attached to strangers. If you're an HFC because you feel like you can, it's not just your problems and your people's problems you can solve. It's kind of anybody's problems. We're always dialed into what's happening outside of us. So on a daily basis, it's very tiring to be bleeding that much. Energetic bandwidth.

[Amanda Doyle]

And don't we also feel like some resentment and anger, like my husband is not an HFC and we'll go out for the night and I will pick on and be able to tell you which marriage is really in trouble, which kid is having a hard time or whatever. And I have now x rayed everyone's emotional state and I come home and I'm exhausted. I'm like, can you believe Marjorie and Joe? And he's like, what the hell are you talking about? He has given zero energy to that stuff. He has just enjoyed his night. And so then it's like I'm mad that I can't stop that leakage of my energy and stop soaking up all the things and that he just gets to go have a night.

[Terri Cole]

I mean, you get to too, Amanda, if you decide to get into recovery, it's possible. I mean, Marjorie and Joe probably enjoyed their night more than you did.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. Marjorie and Joe are freaking fine. Yeah, they're fine.

[Terri Cole]

They don't even care. So back to what is the daily life and why should we care? Right? Because that's really. Amanda, that's really what you're asking. We're burnt out. We are out of juice. We see it. So what comes into my office is people with autoimmune disorders, TMJ and then bigger ones, cancer, Ms. There's from the autoimmune stuff to the really life threatening stuff. Can't sleep is a huge one. And people just being anxious as hell all the time. It's so exhausting. So we see it in our health, we see it in our burnout, we see it in our lack of joy. We see it in our not being fully self expressed. Because think about it as hfcs. When we are managing the crap out of our environment and the people in our environment, it's not that likely that we are asserting what we really want or how we really feel about something. When it comes to the kids and what's gonna happen to them, yes, we'll assert ourselves, right? But for us, it's Always like, it's fine, I'm fine. Think about how many people in your life, I mean, up until you guys have kind of gotten into the self help stuff, but would people be like, gee, I wonder if Amanda's okay? No, nobody's wondering if Amanda's okay. They're like, obviously she's okay. Because as HFCs, we present this very pulled together. And in a lot of ways, we are pulled together, but the cost is high and we're not really present in our lives.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm always wondering if Amanda's okay. That is what 98% of my brain does all day.

[Terri Cole]

Well, you are her sister, but, I.

[Abby Wambach]

Mean, that's also unhelpful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sissy. Do you consider Glennon in the same amount? Like, are you constantly worrying about or thinking about her?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean, we.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's a weird level of codependence when she used to travel. I couldn't sleep while she was traveling. When she got into anorexia recovery, I gained eight pounds. It's like a parallel existence of, okay, we're not okay, we're okay, we're okay. It's a very weird. Yeah, I think there's some work to do. Now I'm less curious if she's okay because she's usually able to tell me with her words, and I'm not as good at that. And I think that that comes from all of this. Like, Terry, you talk about how you know people who are HFCs can tell you very intimately what all of their people are thinking and feeling and what they want. But actually knowing what we want is actually very hard. Like, it's a very hard thing to figure out because I don't know why, because. But when I read that, I was like, that makes sense. I can tell you what the people in my life want. I can't tell you what I want. I don't know it.

[Abby Wambach]

So why is that, Terry?

[Terri Cole]

Because what we want is peace. You want Glennon to be okay. You want Abby to be happy. You want the kids to be good. We just want peace everywhere. We just want box checked to be like, everyone is good, great, okay, I can get on with my day. And I think part of Amanda, maybe, and I could be wrong, but maybe some of the step back could also be that you've had your own health crisis to deal with that required serious attention. Like, how much can you be bleeding when you are forced? Because I do see this with hfcs, that if we don't stop, the universe will find a way to throw us down. A set of cancer stairs or throw us down a set of divorce stairs or whatever. Whatever. The thing is going to be that there's an opportunity to change the way that we're relating because it's already been disrupted. Does that make sense?

[Unknown]

It does.

[Amanda Doyle]

It really does. And the whole, I think for me also with the whole cancer thing is that I had a very much wishing things were okay as a part of, like, okay, I can do this now so that things will be okay. Then I can do this now to make everything okay. And I realized that I am never here.

[Terri Cole]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Even in the micro. Like even if there's really celebratory events. Really wonderful things that I'm excited that I know are objectively wonderful. I would wish them over. My college graduation, I wanted it over as fast as possible because I was so anxious about people being okay that I just wanted my wedding. I tried to sneak out of my wedding because I was like, it's too much. There's too many people feeling too many things in this environment. I just want it to be done.

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I'm never present actually having an experience of the thing. I'm just trying to make sure everyone else's experience is okay.

[Terri Cole]

You make this point. That is exactly the next point I was gonna make that what is the biggest cost to being an active HFC is what I deem living life lite L I T E Because we're not fully here. Because we're always there. We're always anticipating, we're always making a plan. We're always making sure that something is happening. Like we're here like you said, but we're not here. And so that means your memories are not as deep. It's like life. We're just. It's just half as sweet as it should be and half as impactful because we're not really. I was interviewed for this book by Carolyn Hobby and she was saying I eloped because the idea of having a wedding was so effing stressful. To think if everyone is having a good time and are they getting along and is it all okay and is the food good? And this over responsibility for other people's experience. And I was like, do you regret it? And she said, I wish I had been in recovery because I would have had a wedding.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. Bull is a footwear brand for training and for daily life built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. Noble is known for their best in class award winning footwear. It's the shoe for every foot day life. If you change up your workouts but want one pair of a stable and reliable shoe. You can trust the Noble drive to get the job done. No matter what your choice of movement is or how you choose to take care of yourself physically, mentally and emotionally, you can trust no Bull has the footwear options you need exclusively for We Can Do Hard Things listeners, no bull is offering 30% off your order. Visit www.nobleproject.com hard things for 30% off your entire order. That's www.n o b u l l p r O-J-E c t.com backslash hard things for 30% off Easter and Passover.

[Unknown]

Are just around the corner and Macy's wants to help you. You celebrate without the stress. Whether you're hosting family, picking out the perfect outfit, or filling Easter baskets, Macy's has everything you need for a stylish and stress free spring celebration. From toys and chocolates for the kids to beauty and accessories for teens and young adults, Macy's is your go to for Easter basket filling. Plus you can make your tablescapes shine with essentials like Mikasa Flatware, Kendra Scott jewelry and elegant home decor. I'm personally gearing up for Easter and Macy's is making it easy with all of the special festive things that make those special occasions memorable. And of course the kids are excited for an Easter egg hunt, so I'm picking up squishmallows to add to their baskets. And with all the hosting, I am going to get something for myself. I am eyeing a dress from Mango because Happy Easter to me. Shop now@macy's.com or in store for everything you need to celebrate in style. Like most of you, my schedule's crazy busy and it's often tough for me to stay energized throughout the day. I often find that I'm dehydrated without even realizing I was thirsty. This is when I ran across Terra Origins Healthy Hydration plus and it makes a difference. First of all, it actually tastes great, which is a huge win for anything that's supposed to be healthy. It's packed with essential electrolytes that help maintain fluid balance, promote detoxification, and keep me energized. And the best part is that Tara Origins on the Go stick packets make it super easy to have with me no matter where I am. Right now, Tara Origin is offering 25% off your first order with free shipping on all Healthy Hydration plus and Healthy Greens orders. They offer free returns and 100% money back guarantee if you're not satisfied. So what Are you waiting for? Visit terraorigin.com today and start living your best, best life. That's T E R R A O R I g I n.com.

[Glennon Doyle]

As you're talking, I'm now seeing that I have a few HFC qualities, but I am not an hfc. I'm not an empath. But I like, really do like to help. And I like to be the hero of the story. So there's a few crossovers.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you don't like inefficiency.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's.

[Amanda Doyle]

You jump right in there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Love efficiency. What you said is, I think, really important. But I want to get your clarification and maybe distinction on the idea of the goal being peace. Right. And in my mind that means that everybody's good. But I actually don't think that that's what you're saying. I think that what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is even if there is disturbance in your world, that you still maintain your peace when you're in recovery.

[Terri Cole]

That is what it is. The last thing you said. Okay, when we're active, what we are seeking is the impossible. Right? We are seeking to make sure everyone is good. We are seeking to make sure no one is having a bad day. We are seeking and efficiency and all the other good things. But when you're in recovery, you realize, oh, other people having a bad day is a part of life. And I can love them through a bad day and I can see if they wanna talk about it, or I can leave them the alone. Like, I don't have to make them get out of that bad mood. And I feel like when you're in hfc, it's so. We really don't like anybody being in a bad mood. No flailing, no bad moods. We don't like it.

[Abby Wambach]

No, that's true. Okay, so what does recovery look like?

[Terri Cole]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it sounds exhausted. She's like, another thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, I have recovered so many goddamn guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

What does this recovery look like?

[Terri Cole]

She's like, added to the pot. Yes. Well, let's look at what is the benefit? Like, the question is, why should I care?

[Abby Wambach]

Good question.

[Terri Cole]

Right? There are so many people who are like, I like being a helper. And I like. I'm like, listen, if you have no pain in this behavior and your relationships are great, I don't care what you do. Go. This is for people who are exhausted, who are bleeding bandwidth, who feel resentful in their relationships, who feel like no one else knows how to do anything, who feels like, if you want to get anything done. Right? You got to do it yourself. Right? That's who this recovery is for. Someone who wants deeper relationships, who wants to enjoy their fucking life, who wants to relax. So you're already doing the first step, which is raising your awareness around where do you do these behaviors? And of course, in the book, I obviously walk you through all of the behaviors, all of the traits, which, you know, we couldn't do extensively here. So your awareness is already raised. If there are things that you don't want to do as Amanda's, yours has been for years. That was two years ago when you were already identified with the behavior. You're like, I see myself there. One thing that is super important is boundaries. And what's interesting is my first book, Boundary Boss. I wrote it from the perspective of, like, how are we gonna set our boundaries? How are we gonna hold up our boundaries? How are we gonna get rid of those boundary bullies who are bullying us? In this book, the realization is that when you're in hfc, you're kind of the boundary trampler, even though you don't mean to be. So what is it? When we are giving auto advice, that's a boundary. Nobody asked you for that. No one's looking for your suggestion. And even if they are, I still would say don't have giving them your advice be step one. I really wouldn't. I would always ask what they think they should do. But boundaries in your life, emotional boundaries. Right? Even with siblings. Right. People have the right to have emotional privacy. And a lot of times when we are HFCs, we can become enmeshed with other people because of we're always thinking about other people. Right? We gotta start thinking about ourselves, surrendering to what is probably the top, most important thing that we can do. So if we go back to part one of this conversation where I told the story about my sister being in an abusive relationship, I needed to surrender to the fact that that was where Jenna was at that point in her life. I was not surrendered to that. I was convinced I could change that and that I had to change that and that I should change that. The moment I was able to surrender is when I was able to let go and have faith that anything that I did to fix it was not gonna stick anyway, you know, so surrendering to what is surrendering. Perhaps you have a kid who's going through a rough time. We just have to surrender. To that end, ask them, how can I best support you? Rather than making suggestions and buying books and underlining them and bringing them to support whatever it is you're doing. I mean, and sometimes minor kids is not the best example, because sometimes we do actually have to make decisions for them. But you know what I'm saying that there is a way to allow them to tell you the bad thing without being like a annoying silver lining detective.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

My kids have told me I'd do that.

[Terri Cole]

Cause that hyper positivity, you're like, please stop. It's so annoying. And I was the worst. So no judgment. I mean, I was. I could find the good in any situation, even if it was a bad situation, simply because the bad was so painful.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, you don't want to let them feel bad. You don't want to let them feel bad. So you, like, add this little but, da, da, da, da. But we could look at it this way, but blah, blah, blah. And that's kind of bullying a little bit too. It's like pushing.

[Terri Cole]

Definitely.

[Abby Wambach]

Controlling people's feelings and not letting them just be.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like a narrative. It's like a narrator.

[Terri Cole]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

It's showing the narrator.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, literally. That's perfect, Abby. It's literally. You're narrating their experience. You're like, and then this is why this is good. Or this is healthy. Or it could be another way to invalidate people's feelings as HFCs, which we do is saying it could be worse.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's. That's.

[Glennon Doyle]

I say that.

[Amanda Doyle]

Are any of us still doing that? Come on, y'all. That's like 101. Stop doing that.

[Terri Cole]

I know, but it's so easy to think that way. I know, because it's a knee jerk reaction. Hence why we need to meditate.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

And again, when I talk about meditating, you guys, or mindfulness practices, it doesn't have to. You know, nobody needs to move to India. It's like this can be literally 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the afternoon. I mean, you know, TM would say 20 and 20 or 30 and 30, but whatever you can do. I have a million on Insight Timer. I've got like a ton of free meditations that people can just do. You can just choose to start adding a little bit of stillness and silence. Because what you're doing is you'll be expanding that in your internal experience. So when you need it, you will have it. But if we never slow down, if we're never still, if we're never alone with our own thoughts, which for an hfc, if you've not done any of this work, it's Terrifying. And any of you who've started meditating know the first time you start, if you have an active mind, you're like, was that meditating or was that thinking or you just don't want to do it? I did guided meditations for years because I was like, me alone with my thoughts. It was terrifying. But the more you do it, the easier it gets and the more you can just breathe. Someone says something, take a beat. We don't have to give people immediate answers. It's okay to buy time and you can learn how to do that. Especially anybody who leans towards the auto. Yes. If we're like a people pleaser and people ask you and you just feel like, oh, if you were raised in a religious household where you feel like if somebody needs something, you should be of service. So forget the auto. Yes. So pod squatters for the next seven days, no immediate yeses to anything.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ooh, I like this. Yes, I'll do this.

[Terri Cole]

No immediate yeses. Abby, we're not doing it. But what are we doing? We're gonna learn how to buy time. How do you do it? The person says, hey, I could really use your help on Wednesday with the kids in the afternoon. And you say, you know what? I need to actually check my schedule. I'll get back to you tomorrow. You know what? I've made a 24 hour decision making policy for my Saturday. I'll let you know tomorrow. You know what? I need to check with my partner, my friend, my dog, whoever you need to check with. Right. Because what happens is it's so much easier to come back and give a real no, an honest no, if you haven't already given a reactive yes. And we will find a way not to do the shit we don't wanna do. You know this. You might just get a convenient migraine on the morning of the baby shower that you should never have said yes to.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Terri Cole]

Or we go and we're pissed. We're so bitter. It's just pouring off of us. We're like, great, okay, I'm gonna go. But this was great. I hope you good luck. And then you leave and cannot wait. Who can I call to discuss this with? I cannot wait to. Who am I shit talking anyway?

[Abby Wambach]

That is so interesting.

[Amanda Doyle]

The gossiping thing is a sign that you're doing shit you shouldn't be doing. Can you just give a little, uh. Oh, yes, one second on that?

[Terri Cole]

I sure can. When you think about who. And also, who is it that you gossip about the most? Cause that will just reveal your Shadow to you. Floodlight, floodlight on the shadow. Right? Whatever they're doing, whatever annoys you the most. I mean, listen, Carl Jung thought of this, not Terri Cole. But there's truth in that. If you're gossiping, two things are going on. Either you're doing a bunch of shit you don't wanna do. And it's really not about that person, it's just about you letting off steam. Or if you spot it, you got it, as they say in the rooms, right? So whatever I see in you that I think is so annoying. Or you'll always have one kid who embodies the worst shit about you that that kid just gets on your friggin nerves. Even though you wouldn't say that to anybody, but it's so true. And when you're looking at that, you're like, what is it about me that I'm seeing either in this person I'm gossiping about or in this kid? And it's helpful to be able to turn that shit around, hold that mirror up to ourselves. Because of course gossiping doesn't do anything. It just makes you feel bad. It's like such a bad vibe, you know what I mean? It makes you feel bad, you're done, it's fun for like 2 minutes and then you're like, ew. It like leaves a bad aftertaste, you know?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, yes.

[Terri Cole]

Okay. Another thing in recovery is we have to be okay with disappointing other people. We just do. You know, Cheryl Richardson has a book called Let Me Disappoint yout. And I feel like we all have to just get that in our bones that if we're never disappointing others, you know who we're definitely disappointing ourselves. This guy. That is correct. No doubt. There's no doubt. Like someone else can't be the priority and you be the priority. The impulses that we have to like just act in the beginning. So I want to tell you about the cycle of getting into recovery from hfc. In the beginning, when you're in active hfc, you give too many fucks to too many people, right? There's too many Fs that we're giving to too many situations and people. It's just crazy. Then something happens. It could be a health crisis, it could be a relationship, it could be anything. Something happens where you hit a tipping point and then the pendulum swings all the way over to the other side where there's. You have no Fs to give to any people. And we're doing it with so much anger. Amanda, you were telling A story. And it made me think of this about Alice being afraid she was gonna have to run the mile and thought she was gonna be the last one. And the way you were describing seeing all of these, like, fuckers at the school, and you were like, I'm not giving you a second. I am gonna get to my girl and I'm gonna do. But the. The anger that is propelling you to do the only thing you were doing that day, which is supporting your child until she ran off with her friends. Right. It's like, what we realize as HFCs when we first get into recovery, that we do have to do it with anger or we won't do it. It's very much the way that separation and individuation happens with teenagers. You know, how they'll be like, you guys are so corny, or whatever they do, they do it with anger because it's so painful for them to separate from you. If they didn't do it with anger, they wouldn't do it a lot of times. And I feel like modern kids, this is changing some, but this certainly was the case in the 70s, 80s, 90s, raising kids. So my point is, the pendulum is not going to stay all the way over here. And I don't care what you need to do to stop doing shit you don't want to do in the beginning. If you need to lie, I don't care. The most important thing right now, our biggest goal is to stop doing things we don't want to do. Actually checking in with ourselves, as we said in the last episode. Do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? And do I even effing want to do it right? We're going to ask ourselves those two imperative questions before taking on anything. And the more you get good at boundaries yourself and respecting others, the easier it's going to be to realize you don't have to be mad. And when we stop doing a bunch of shit we don't want to do, we're so much less mad. Yeah, we're just like, you know what? I just don't want to go to an outside concert with a bunch of people singing and eating food. I just want to hear James Taylor. So I just want to go to a regular concert. Okay. You can just not want to do something that's legitimate. What did my friend invent concerts? She didn't. And it's okay to say, hey, it's not my thing. You guys go have a great time. And starting to give ourselves permission to actually prioritize how you feel, what you want and what you think and you have to do it and it has to be over what anybody else wants, thinks and feels. And it doesn't mean we won't compromise. But do you know what I'm saying?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, they do.

[Terri Cole]

If you don't do that, no one else can. And so we feel forced into quote unquote like even as high functioning capable as we are, it's like we feel like, well, they're not doing it. So I have to and I really will invite you to question so much of the things that you feel overly obligated to do in your life. Because again, whatever we're doing out of obligation, let's not mistake that for love. Yeah, right. Being dutiful is not the same as being loving. And yes, it can be an element of being loving. Sure, show up, do what you say you're gonna do, but not in the way when you're an active hfc, you're doing it, but you're really not doing it lovingly. You're doing it because this person is inefficient or we've trained them to be to under function because they know that however they do it is going to be wrong.

[Unknown]

Need contract help for those workload peaks and backlog projects? You're not alone. Robert half found that 67% of companies surveyed said they will increase their use of contract talent. That's why their recruiters leverage their experience and use award winning AI to quickly find the skilled candidates you want. Learn about their specialized talent in finance, accounting, technology, marketing, legal and administrative support at Robert Half. They know talent. Visit roberthal.com talent today when spring has sprung and IKEA is at your fingertips, reclaim your space fast and find out how convenient shopping IKEA can be. When ordering ikea, they have the best options for you. Want to turn your patio space into an outdoor oasis? They're on it. Choose from thousands of pickup locations and find a pickup point that is closest to you. No time to pick up before that family barbecue? No problem. Their affordable delivery options are so convenient. When you check out online, you'll actually enjoy the party. Prep shop now and enjoy convenience with a click. Order IKEA online and choose from thousands of pickup locations or affordable delivery with free shipping on small orders over $50 for IKEA family members. Whenever, wherever, however you shop. IKEA, they're here to help. This podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues. It's that time of year again. The flowers are blooming and birds are chirping and also that time when allergies can test you and show up when you least expect. But with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues, you can be ready to face them whether it's sneezes or watery eyes. You don't want to be caught without a tissue on hand to help. Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are gentle on eyes and noses. There for all the moments at home and on the go that allergies can disrupt this allergy season. Be better prepared with Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues, which are allergist approved so you can go on with your day. Life and allergies can both be unpredictable, but you can be prepared for that time of year by making sure you've always got Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues ready for whatever happens next. Grab Kleenex.

[Abby Wambach]

Is that what happens? Do people who are HFCs, is it a self fulfilling prophecy where you stop trusting the people around you and then they start to get frozen? It's like almost you do. We were talking about this the other day, like you almost do end up surrounded by untrustworthy people. You do, because everybody loses their shit because they feel constantly judged and inadequate, right?

[Terri Cole]

I mean, the question you're asking Glennon is really, does the over functioning inspire under functioning? And the answer is it does. And there's only so long. Listen to Jani Cole. She'll tell you if you keep rejecting the gifts, the offers will stop coming. And how do those people feel about the fact that you don't trust them, that you don't think they're capable, or that there's no space for them to make a mistake? Right? Because then there's all of this amplified response to it. When we start putting down what is not our responsibility, our relationships will immediately start to revive. Immediately. It's like they're thirsty as hell and you start to put water on, you will see a shift in the way that the people are interacting with you and also how you feel about it. We just can't die on every hill, right? We just can't have every thing be as important as every next thing. Do you know what I mean?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I do. And I'm putting a flag in the emotional resilience because I want to get there for sure and talk about that. But on this thing, as the defender and advocate of HFCs, I don't think that the nitpicking comes from this kind of just nagging perfectionism. I think it comes from the idea and worldview of love and a fear that we are not being loved. I think when Somebody runs amok with the vacuum or doesn't pick up the package. Picks up the package an hour late. And now the post office is closed or whatever it is.

[Terri Cole]

Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Where my mind goes is, I am not being cared for and loved in the way that I need to survive. Because the way I care in love is with such finely attuned attention to the things that need to be done. And that's how I keep us safe. And how can I ever be sure that this little ecosystem is gonna be kept safe if I'm the only one making sure that those tiny things are accounted for? I think it's like a real deep fear.

[Abby Wambach]

Is it like a love language? Like a love language. Like your love language is perfection?

[Amanda Doyle]

Like your love language, care and attention. It's care and attention. And like, oh, my God, am I only the one paying attention around here? And that scares me, because then I'm responsible for everything.

[Terri Cole]

Yes. But, Amanda, what you're describing. So if we look at love languages, you're saying your love language is acts of service. You didn't talk about being listened to. You didn't talk about someone sitting with you and holding your hand. You didn't talk about getting a back rub. You didn't.

[Amanda Doyle]

All that other bullshit that they wrote about.

[Terri Cole]

But do you know what I'm saying?

[Abby Wambach]

You should get an assistant.

[Terri Cole]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Touche.

[Terri Cole]

There's accuracy to that. But maybe you're talking about. Is your partner's love language the exact same love language as yours?

[Abby Wambach]

No.

[Terri Cole]

Brave. It would be really good if they would be really dialed into your love language, and you would be really dialed into their love language. So acts of service is one, but words of affirmation, gifts, quality time, there's so many others. But what I hear you saying is how threatening it feels to let go of control. And that it feels like you're being uncared for. And I think that that is something that you have to talk about in your relationship. I'm not saying you actually have to do it, but, I mean, that's something to be talked about where it's like, this happens. This is how it makes me feel. I'd had a situation with my husband years ago. He used to pick me up. I was commuting from Jersey, and I would get out on the train, and I would look down to see if he was there. When he was there. When I pulled up, I'd be so happy. I would bolt down the stairs. I was, like, so in love. It's insane, but I was, like, my heart would just be Beating out of my chest with joy. And for whatever reason, if I looked down and he wasn't there yet, I would be dejected. I was like, he does not give a crap. I was so sad, I'd be mad. I'd be withdrawn in anger on the way home. I'd be like, fine. I'm just tired. You know the whole thing that we do when we don't wanna tell the truth about how we feel. And then finally I just had to say to him, I know this is, like, weird, but could you just try to be there before the train comes in? Because when you're not, I don't know why, but it just makes me wanna cry. It makes me feel so unimportant. And he's like, of course. And then he was almost probably in the last 30 years, he's been late twice after that. You know what I mean? Like, he was like, well, that means something to her. But he wouldn't have done that if I hadn't told him because it wouldn't mean the same thing to him. You know what I mean, Amanda?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, yeah, I do know what you mean. I do know what you mean. I, I, I think I'm just, you know how, like, in recovery and we're talking about recovery with this, it isn't like if people are like, oh, stop binging and purging. Oh, stop drinking. Oh, stop. It was never made sense to me unless I could channel that energy that was going into that thing in a different direction. The idea of stopping it up and being like, no more of that didn't make sense because there was always something real happening through that. It just needed to be re channeled. So I guess what I'm saying is all of the love and energy and fervor that is going into this control is real and good. It just needs to be rerouted to yourself.

[Abby Wambach]

Right? Because actually, you're saying, no one is looking out for me the way I need to be looked out for. And you are right. You are right. Because the only person who is supposed to be looking out for you in your life to that detail is yourself. And since you're so busy doing it for everyone else, you are correct that no one's looking out for you. So maybe the redirect is. And maybe if you went to self, then you would know what you want, you would know what you do. Is that the redirect?

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, the redirect is really, Glenn, it's pretty much exactly that, that we have all of this bandwidth that we've been bleeding and that we're gonna take it back and we're gonna bring it in for ourselves and we're gonna stop being identified with how much we do and how much we do for others. It's like this frigging badge of honor, the exhaustion that comes along with being this over functioner. And you're gonna really get over it in your recovery and you're going to rest and you're not going to be the workaholic that I know you are. All of you probably, but definitely you.

[Glennon Doyle]

One of the things that I'm feeling for Sister two is I heard you clearly just now and it's like the first time you've ever been able to put it into real words that the things that you've moved on from in your life, you've been able to redirect that energy into something different, something positive, maybe even into high functioning codependency on some level.

[Amanda Doyle]

Maybe, maybe.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so being able to actually own the redirection towards yourself and being able to actually own the energy that whatever was creating, some of the stuff that's gone on in your life, it's like being with it to be with that, that energy rather than needing to redirect it. I don't know if that's correct, Terri. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Terri Cole]

No, I like it. Because here's the thing we love to do as HFCs, we can't wait to have another thing to do. And really what you're saying or what I'm hearing you say is that bringing the energy back into self and sitting with it, asking questions, hmm, why does that feel so threatening? Is it true, looking at it, right. Does this actually mean. Did it mean when my husband was 12 seconds later than the day before he picked me up, was it true that he didn't give a crap about me? Of course not. He didn't even think about it. So I think that it gives us the expansion to question, to change, to do something simply because it's fun. Right? It's like think about when's the last time you did something. And this is for all HFCs, I mean, part of the recovery. There's so much. I call it self consideration because I feel like self care and self love. We talk about it, we understand it, but it seems very platitude y at this point. And what is more powerful is actual self consideration before you commit, do I have the bandwidth to do it without becoming resentful and do I even effing want to do it? Those two questions. And again, if that's the only thing you changed from listening to pod number two in this little series, it would change your life because it would change what you commit to doing. It would change the way you interact with other people. It wouldn't just be the automatic. I got it. And I think we really have to question, do we have it? And the answer is we don't. We actually don't. Right. That's an illusion too, you know, this.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is all so beautiful and has me like my head exploding with things. Can you talk about emotional resistance? Because something that I've been like thinking about a lot since I read your work is like, oh, I am using other people to emotionally regulate. I am looking outside and saying, okay, is that thing acceptable to me? That thing on the outside? Is that person who's on the train across from me and listening to music too loud, is that acceptable to me? Therefore I'm not emotionally regulated? Is my son's grades acceptable enough for me to be emotionally regulated? Am I whatever. So I'm trying to figure out like, how do I get to a place, kind of like Abby was saying before, where I can, inside of me be in charge of knowing if I'm okay, deciding if I'm not okay, and then having tools to make myself okay even if the world is fucking burning down outside of me. And then I can still make a choice like, oh, would I like to bring some water over there? I can still do that. But the inside of me, I can have tools for that. How do we even know that we are dependent on others for our emotional regulation? And then what is a way to check in and be able to regulate ourselves regardless of the outer situations?

[Terri Cole]

Okay, big question, but we got it. So you can tell if other people situation, circumstances, what's going on because you are dysregulated when your regulation is dependent on outside things, you are dysregulated because it's not consistent, right? When we are emotionally self regulated in a good way, there's a baseline. Something happens, we get upset and then we go back to the baseline. So the real question is how do we create a baseline of stability where we go, okay, I don't love that he got a circle. I also don't think he's going to be homeless because he got a C. Right? Like, we don't have to go to the extreme of what does it mean? So with HFCs and there's a whole section in the book about emotional self regulation, but it starts with emotional fluency, right? We don't know how we feel. Because the moment we feel something we don't like, we get into action, we do something to change it. We go get in the car and get the thing that's needed that they forgot or whatever. So the slowing down the pace of the life of the HFC is so important because we need that space. We need to say, and you can look back right now, you can pick a situation and go, okay, something that really got you jacked up, do you ever go back and go, okay, what was that really about? I can give you some questions. Sometimes we're having a transference to someone. If you haven't amplified. It's really part of it is understanding your own triggers.

[Unknown]

Yeah, right.

[Terri Cole]

If you're interacting with someone and you have this super amplified response to something they're doing, probably you've had a similar experience in your life that wasn't great for you. So you can ask yourself, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? Why is this familiar to me? And those three questions, and I give those to you in the book and I write about them online, this now can point you to like a little GPS towards an original injury that might still need your attention. Because if this person being out of control or listening to music too loud or whatever it is is jacking me up to a degree that is out of proportion to what the situation is, there's something else that is sticky with that situation. And it really does help for us to figure it out because A, we're the only ones who can, and B, feelings don't go away just because they're inconvenient. We can stuff them down, we can make a narrative, we can do all these things, but they're still there and we are still experiencing them. So I think that there's two different things. Like what can you do in the moment when you feel dysregulated? I'll give you a couple of ideas there. And then what can you do to become more intimate with your emotions? So in the moment, if you're dysregulated, there are super simple things that you can do. Like plunge your hands into cold water. Now, it sounds weird, but that helps. I know you guys probably know this. Humming. For whatever reason, humming can like really lessen anxiety or activation. Laying down for two minutes, walking outside, like getting out of the space that you're in where the reaction happened. If it just means walking outside, hugging a tree and coming back in, just changing your environment can help. We're looking for a pattern interruption when we get activated and you can choose the pattern interruption of your choice and then bring yourself back to everything is okay in the macro view. A lot of times I'll say to myself, you're okay, Tara. It's okay. It doesn't have to be perfect, right? We're not saying it's perfect. We're just saying right now, the house is not on fire. It's okay. Give yourself permission to bring it down. So those are a few things that you can do sort of in the moment. I also think moving your body, for those who are able, is really helpful. I have a mini trampoline that I work out on every day that I love. That just activity, moving your body, moving energy out, especially if we're feeling activated or jacked up, can be really helpful. The other thing that you guys can do if you're just sort of starting to become more, I don't know, intimate in a real way with your own feelings, is think back to the last three times that you were upset and journal about them and keep asking what was really going on. Right? Because a lot of times we'll get mad, but really it's a secondary emotion to something that we want to feel less. Right. What we really feel is hurt. But anger feels a lot of times more empowering or annoyance feels more empowering. But it doesn't help us when we misname our emotions. We actually need to know what we're feeling. And you know, Amanda, from the way that you're talking, like in the broad strokes of, like, not loving to be dependent on others, let's say, or not loving to be vulnerable. But these are lifelong pursuits that we do want to be vulnerable. Right? We do want those heart connections with people. And the more you have it, the more you realize, like, wow, it's really not about getting shit done. It's really about how I love. And you think doing is love. But what people really want from you is your presence, is your attention, is your time. I think that's what most people want.

[Amanda Doyle]

Terri Cole.

[Terri Cole]

Damn it.

[Abby Wambach]

Damn it, Terri Cole, you're too much.

[Amanda Doyle]

Terri Cole. You're too much.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you for being here.

[Amanda Doyle]

This has been amazing. Both of these episodes, I think, are going to really help people. I know that they have helped me. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your work. It's so important and beautiful. And you're just a love bug.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. You are.

[Terri Cole]

What? Oh, my God. Thank you guys for having me. And I want to give something to your people if they want something, which is just. Where do we start? As hfcs because as we both we can all see it's kind of overwhelming. I have just a little toolkit so you can just go terricole.com hfc and it's just a toolkit there. And you'll also be able to take a boundary quiz there if you want to know what your archetype is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Ooh, I'm going to do that.

[Terri Cole]

The boundaries, which could be helpful too.

[Amanda Doyle]

It will be.

[Abby Wambach]

I can't wait till all the HFCs send these episodes to everyone who they.

[Amanda Doyle]

Think this episode apropos of nothing. All you people who I keep saving from themselves, fix yourselves. Terry, thank you so much.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Terry Cole, thanks for being here. Beautiful, beautiful.

[Terri Cole]

Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

Bye POD Squad.

[Glennon Doyle]

See you next time.

[Abby Wambach]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glenn and Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.