The Closure Myth: How Do We Really Move On? (Best Of)

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things – “The Closure Myth: How Do We Really Move On?” (Best Of)

Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Date: August 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the elusive idea of “closure” in all its forms—grief, loss, the end of relationships, and life’s constant search for “moving on.” Sparked by two listener questions, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda break down what closure really means, whether it’s achievable, and how it affects our ability to heal and evolve. In their signature honest, humorous, and vulnerable style, they challenge the cultural myth that we must “get over” the hard things, unpacking why carrying our wounds might actually make us wiser and softer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Vibes: Doing Hard Things on Tired Days

[02:18]–[05:18]

• The episode begins with a candid exchange about a frustrating morning—no coffee filters, improvised solutions, and Amanda’s attempts at “mind over matter.”
• The tone is honest and light—emphasizing that not every day is perfectly optimistic, and embracing “faking it” on tired days is okay.
• “Maybe we don’t have the magical optimism that one might hope a host of a podcast has.” – Glennon [05:18]

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What Is Closure?

[06:17]–[13:00]

The Listener’s Question:

Marlena calls in, asking:
“What exactly is closure? Do we ever really get closure? When someone is gone, the hole in the heart still feels present.” [06:17]

Honest Reflections:

• Amanda:

  • Questions the very existence of closure, especially after her brother’s passing.
  • “You just learn to carry it with you always… You still will never really know.” [07:27–09:18]
  • Suggests that what is called ‘closure’ in true crime stories often just means family gets more information, but the real loss remains.

• Glennon:

  • Discusses ambiguous loss and the unique pain of not knowing.
  • Even when you get “information” you expect will be relieving, it rarely resolves the core pain.
  • “What’s bringing you the most pain is not that you don’t know what happened, it’s that it happened.” [09:19]

• Amanda:

  • The closest thing to closure is acceptance—not a magical “moving on.”
  • “Closure is a little bow we like to put on shit so that we don’t think we have to deal with it anymore.” [10:56]

• Glennon:

  • “Closure” is a personal, internal decision, not something you can extract from someone else.
  • “You don’t use an opener to get closure. If you truly want closure, you and yourself can decide that you have closure.” [11:30]

Notable Quote:

• “Closure is a singular decision to me. I don’t need the other person’s thing.” – Glennon [12:04]

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Closure in Relationships & the Psychology Behind It

[13:00]–[20:58]

• Abby:

  • Introduces “cognitive closure”—a psychological term denoting our need for a firm, clear answer to avoid ambiguity.
  • Describes how people with a high need for closure don’t always pursue truth, but any answer that allows them to “close the book,” often at the expense of new information.
  • Links high need for closure with craving order, predictability, and even certain worldview traits.

• Glennon:

  • Connects high need for closure to self-sabotage; sometimes people end things prematurely just to escape uncertainty.
  • “We would rather suffer with a No than suffer in a Maybe.” [17:27]

• Abby:

  • Shares personally about her divorce, and how her compulsion for a “story” to tell herself and others was part of searching for closure.
  • Warns that those who grab a quick answer may miss the fullness, nuance, and self-reflection inherent in the real process.

• Amanda:

  • The people most creative are those who tolerate some ambiguity.
  • “The people who are like, ‘I can live with this ambiguity’—they’re actually more creative. They allow things in and imagine possibilities.” [20:40]

Notable Quote:

• “If you’re trying to get as much information as you can to come up with an answer, you’re basing your closure on what this person… gives you. That’s not closure.” – Abby [21:47]

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Giving Yourself Closure—And Why It’s Always an Inside Job

[21:49]–[23:54]

• All three hosts agree: closure, if it even exists, can only ever be an internal, self-given state.
• Glennon draws an analogy: some people approach loss with rigidity and dogma (fundamentalism and narrative control), while others remain open, mystical, and tolerant of life’s mysteries.
• “Maybe there’s a way of giving yourself a story so you have the thing that you know, but it’s mystical and wide enough to allow you to see it in a million different ways.” – Glennon [23:35]

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Living With the 'Swiss Cheese' Heart: Why Closure Isn’t Healing the Hole

[26:59]–[32:36]

• Amanda:

  • Defines closure as the capacity to move forward, carrying the memory or pain, but not being controlled by it.
  • “It just means it will no longer control your life…” [27:27]

• Glennon:

  • Beautiful metaphor:
    • “It’s not filling the hole in the heart. It’s carrying on with a holy heart… The best people are just like Swiss cheese hearts.” [27:27–28:03]
  • We don’t “move beyond” pain; we move with it.

• Abby:

  • “There’s no moving beyond a death. You’re moving with that.” [28:32]

On “Getting Over It”:

• Glennon admits:
  • “I am quite certain that I have never in my entire life gotten over anything.” [28:58]
  • Remembers and revisits pain from decades ago—believes it’s part of being human, not a flaw.
• Amanda and Abby: Sometimes forgiveness happens, but forgetting or permanent detachment rarely does.

Notable Moment:

• Abby:
  • Redefines grieving as an ongoing state, not a one-and-done process.
  • “I’m just wondering if the idea of closure is the inability to be in a perpetual state of grief…” [31:36]

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Final Reflections—Mystery Over Mastery

[32:36]–[33:50]

• All hosts summarize:
  • Grief and lost relationships are fundamentally mysterious. Attempts to “scientifically” or forensically explain them will fall short.
  • “Relationships and loss are a mystery. You can try to make them a science… but good luck.” – Glennon [32:36]
  • The healthiest approach is to stay open, hold things lightly, and accept that some things are unknowable.

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Listener Q2: Navigating “Where Should We Move?” With a Partner

[34:00]–[53:08]

Rebecca’s Question:

• Torn between the West Coast (her family) and East Coast (partner's family) for settling down and starting a family.
• Both desire to be near their respective families; seeking advice on how to decide.

Glennon’s Take:

• Has always been nomadic; admits seeking “geographical solutions” for discomfort might not fix inner struggles.
• But also recognizes that the environment deeply affects her wellbeing.
• “My environment matters so much to my mental health and the way that I feel each day.” [36:09]

Amanda’s Reflection:

• Admires those who stay rooted and wonders if her own (less nomadic) approach is better/worse/different.
• Raises question of defining yourself by place, tradition, or the relationships you’ve nurtured.

Abby’s Perspective:

• Urges practical, tactical thinking:
  • Why do you want to be near family? Is it nostalgia, genuine help, or social expectation?
  • Advocates for a “spreadsheet” approach:
    • How much real help will you get?
    • What are the social/family obligations?
    • Is it about support, or pressure?
  • “Who do you think’s helping you? Because the people who say, ‘I’m going to help you so much’… you might want to confirm that assumption.” [48:00]

The Challenge of Regression:

• Glennon:
  • Recognizes that returning to family settings can cause “regression”—becoming someone’s child instead of stepping into your own parental or adult role.
  • “I did not want to raise my parents’ grandchild—I wanted to raise my baby.” [52:23]
• All agree: living close to family is not a neutral decision. It brings both tangible positives (help, traditions) and possible negatives (loss of autonomy, role regression, family-of-origin baggage).

Notable Quotes:

• “Some kind of help is the kind of help we all can live without, as Marlo Thomas told us.” – Glennon [54:30]
• “If not, say goodbye to your relationship. Bye!” – Abby, playfully emphasizing the need for boundaries [54:03]

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• Glennon:

  • “Closure is a singular decision. I actually don’t need the other person’s thing.” [12:04]
  • “The best people are just like Swiss cheese hearts.” [28:03]
  • “I am quite certain that I have never in my entire life gotten over anything.” [28:58]

• Amanda:

  • “Closure is a little bow we like to put on shit so that we don't think we have to deal with it anymore.” [10:56]

• Abby:

  • “The people who are like, 'I can live with this ambiguity,' are the more creative people.” [20:40]
  • “There's no moving beyond a death. You’re moving with that.” [28:32]
  • “If not goodbye, say goodbye to your relationship. Bye!” [54:03]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:17]: Marlena asks: What is closure?
• [09:19]: The risk of seeking closure in more information
• [13:00]: Cognitive closure & psychology behind craving answers
• [17:27]: Self-sabotage to escape uncertainty
• [20:40]: Creativity and ambiguity
• [27:27]: “Swiss cheese hearts”: accepting ongoing wounds
• [28:58]: “I have never gotten over anything”—honest truth about grief
• [36:09]: The geographic solutions to life’s restlessness
• [48:00]: Practical advice on moving for family/help
• [52:23]: On not wanting to regress to "child" in proximity to parents

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Tone & Takeaway

The episode is raw, compassionate, and truth-telling. Rather than offering false optimism or pat answers, the hosts embrace the messy, ongoing work of living with grief, ambiguity, and change. You won’t walk away thinking you need to “get closure” to be okay. Instead, you’ll feel invited to honor your own story, accept that wounds linger, and recognize that carrying loss is part of becoming textured and open-hearted—a little “swiss cheese heart” moving bravely and honestly through it all.

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For those struggling to move on, this episode will validate your feelings, challenge common platitudes, and offer community in uncertainty.

Transcript

[Amanda Doyle]

As summer winds down and fall winds.

[Abby Wambach]

Up and life is crazy and the.

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Is it under $50?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, yes and yes.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

It'S just.

[Amanda Glennon]

One of them days where when you wake up, things aren't going as they normally do. For instance, we ran out of coffee filters.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oof.

[Amanda Glennon]

And I just was like when you.

[Abby Wambach]

Throw a paper towel in there.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's what I did.

[Abby Wambach]

This one press on.

[Glennon Doyle]

She sits down on the couch. I go upstairs. Where's the coffee? So we have this routine. One of us does the dogs, one of us does the coffees. Usually Abby does the dogs and the coffees. But the system is ideally that one of us does each that I do.

[Amanda Glennon]

The Dogs and that she does a coffee. But today I was upstairs first.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I go upstairs and there's no coffees and she's sitting on the couch and I say, what is happening? And she says, bad news. We have no coffee filters. As if the next thing to do is not just rig anything like put.

[Abby Wambach]

A sweaty means necessary, put a sweater.

[Glennon Doyle]

In there, suck the coffee beans, put the coffee beans in the Vitamix, do something.

[Amanda Glennon]

I ordered on Instacart filters and actually I needed to get more coffee because it needed to be $10, but that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Was going to be an hour. Like I just. No, no, no, no, no.

[Amanda Glennon]

I don't have that much of a. I prefer to have coffee first thing. But if I had to choose between a filter of paper towel that has little shards of like little glass in it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why does paper towels have glass in it?

[Amanda Glennon]

Paper towels have like little weird shards of stuff.

[Glennon Doyle]

If you gave me. Is that an act?

[Abby Wambach]

Is that true?

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm sure.

[Amanda Glennon]

Let me look it up. No, don't somebody look it up.

[Glennon Doyle]

I want this whatever towel has glass shards in it then.

[Abby Wambach]

This is a much bigger conversation than the coffee. We should be talking about this.

[Amanda Glennon]

I didn't want any of the paper towel in it.

[Glennon Doyle]

If you gave me a choice of no coffee or just a roll of paper towels soaked in coffee, I would suck the coffee out of the paper towel roll.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's so gross.

[Abby Wambach]

I know.

[Amanda Glennon]

I'm just saying you'll do anything for coffee.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'll do anything. I'll do anything for coffee. Yeah.

[Amanda Glennon]

So that's how this morning started. And then I just was like tired at my workout. I've just been like kind of like tired.

[Glennon Doyle]

But then tell them what you said to me in the kitchen after you came home and were saying this is just one of those days and nothing's going right.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Glennon]

And then I said I gotta mind over matter this. I gotta like change this vibe up. And so I just started to sing.

[Glennon Doyle]

She did a little dance.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yeah. You know that song? It's just one of them things I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Think when I wanna be on my own. Just one of them days. Yeah.

[Amanda Glennon]

I don't. Is it just one of them days?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Glennon]

I don't know any lyrics ever. So this is not surprising. But I'm trying to like turn my frown upside down. Down is what I'm trying to do.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Good for you. And it looks like it worked. Ish.

[Amanda Glennon]

No, no, no. I'm just faking it right now. Just faking it. But I have my coffee because the.

[Glennon Doyle]

Filters finally came you know what cheers us up when we have frowns is the Pod Squad. And this day is one of those days where maybe we don't have it. Maybe we don't have the magical optimism that one might hope a host of a podcast has.

[Amanda Glennon]

Do you ever have magical optimism?

[Glennon Doyle]

I have magical other things. I have magical pessimism. They come for both. The sky needs a sun and a moon. Abby Wambach.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's right, baby. So, yeah, what are we doing today?

[Glennon Doyle]

The beautiful thing about community is everyone doesn't have a bad day at the same time. We get to step in and step out and step whatever. So today, you all are carrying us. The Pod Squad is carrying us. We have some amazing questions and ideas that were shared from you into our inbox, and we are going to listen now. Let us start with Marlena.

[Caller]

My name is Marlena. My pronouns are she, her. Hi, Amanda Glennon, and Abby. I was just calling because I'm wondering, what exactly is closure? I know oftentimes when somebody passes away, people will say, well, at least you've had that closure. Now you can gain some closure. And I'm not really sure what exactly I'm getting closure on when that hole in the heart still feels present. I watch a lot of true crime documentaries, and oftentimes when bodies are found later on down the line, they say, well, now the family can have closure. And I guess I'm just wondering, what exactly is closure and do we ever really get closure? Love you guys so much.

[Amanda Glennon]

Marlena is my kind of girl. First of all, she's talking about grief and losing people. And second of all, she also, like me, is a true crime fan. And I have always had this question.

[Abby Wambach]

So what's your take on the question? You've always had this question about closure.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yes, first of all, and more so since my brother has passed away, because I don't think that there's a such thing. You don't, like, close the door on when somebody passes away. You just learn to carry it with you always. And I agree with her that, like in these true crime podcasts that I listen to, that's what the hosts always say. Well, you know, at least the family has closure. Or the detectives. And it's like, no, what you're saying is at least they have more information than they prior had.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Amanda Glennon]

The person is still gone.

[Glennon Doyle]

Part of a mystery has been solved.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

If there's a mystery, if you have an ambiguous loss, meaning you don't know what happened, that is a hard thing. There's a level of added grief onto the regular grief of it, apparently, where just the not knowing deepens the pain. And so there is some kind of relief, I think. Not full relief, but some kind of relief that comes to people who get some information that make the mystery seem less scary and unsolved.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yeah, I mean, I hear that, but I don't believe that that's totally it either. I think that the mystery is a cover up. I think that in my case at least, I was obsessed with trying to figure out what happened to my brother. That was a huge part of my early grief process and through a lot of my therapy. It is the fallacy that I was taught about justice and right and wrong and good and bad, that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. And like, the truth is, even if you have the specificity on the death certificate or whatever it is, you still.

[Sponsor Voice]

Will never really know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I wonder if that kind of closure makes a deeper pain happen. Because it reminds me of the things that we tell ourselves will fix it. Like something happens and then we tell ourselves, the reason I'm in so much pain is because I don't know this thing. And so then you attach yourself to, if I figure out this thing, I will have relief. And so I wonder if when you get that piece of information that you've been telling yourself will bring relief. I wonder if it's even harder then. Because of course, what's bringing you the most pain is not that you don't know what happened, it's that it happened.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so now you've gotten what you thought would help, and it doesn't. And so now you're still left with the hole in your heart that Marlena is pointing towards.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yeah. The thing that I think about a lot with this is that the closest thing that my understanding can get to closure is acceptance of what has happened, of what has transpired. I don't know if I am not 100% sure that I will ever heal from all of the major heartbreaks of my life fully. I am not sure if I will ever really get over grief of losing my brother. What I know is coming to the acceptance of him being gone is the only thing that at this point in my grief process that I can assume will feel like this supposed closure.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting. So acceptance is the only real closure to you?

[Amanda Glennon]

Maybe. And I don't know. I don't know what six months from now will look like or a year or five years. But I think closure is this little bow that we like to put on shit so that we don't think that we have to deal with it anymore. And I think that that is also a bill of goods that were sold in the world.

[Glennon Doyle]

I will tell you one thing I've noticed about the people that I know is that whenever anyone says to me, well, I'm just gonna reach out to him one more time, because I just need closure. That is always a big lie. What they want is one more hit.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

What they want is opener. Yeah, they want. You don't use an opener to get closure, because if you truly want closure, you and yourself. You and yourself can decide that you have closure. It's like closure is a singular decision to me. Right. It's like, I have decided this is over. I actually don't need the other person's. It's like going to someone to get closure. It's like banging on somebody's door, having them open it, and being like, I am here to tell you I am leaving this house. But you.

[Abby Wambach]

I am shutting this door right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

But you weren't there before. Like, you needed the jolt of connection. You didn't need closure.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. It's interesting to hear you all talk about this and to hear Marlena talk about closure in terms of a death, because I get that when I hear you talk about it. And also, I always thought of closure in terms of relationships. Or I hear it more of just like, I don't understand what happened, or all of a sudden they just up and left. Or even friendships. Hear that a lot. Like, I was friends with this person for 10 years, and then they just kind of ghosted. And I don't have any closure. It's so awful. And psychologists who look at this, they say that the need for closure. First of all, it's called cognitive closure, which is amazing because that's in your brain. Like, your brain needs to understand it. And it's a psychological term that describes a need for a clear, firm answer to a question to avoid ambiguity. So it's like the need for a clear, firm answer. That's hilarious, right? Like, because there's never a singular clearance. Clear, firm answer. And so it's the same thing when you have that high need, and there's people with high need for closure, and there's people who avoid closure, and then there's people in the middle. And they've done all these studies of people, which is fascinating. But the people who have a high need for closure seek out information. So that's the people who say, I'm going to call one more time. They really believe that they are going to extract new information that will somehow lead them to a clear answer. And the whole thing is based on an ability to predict the world. Like, I need this closure, I need this answer. And I'm gonna seek out as much information as I can get until I can get the answer. Because once I have this answer, I believe it will help me to predict what's going to happen in the world. It will make me safer in future relationships, it will make me safer, safer in other friendships. Because I will understand that this isn't just like a random crazy ass thing that someone did to me. It is part of an orderly flow of events. Or like I can understand that something happened to my brother and it was probably a result of him doing X. So if I avoid X, I'll be fine.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

It's all like this deep, deep comfort with insecurity, with uncertainty and randomness. And when they look at these people and they study them, the same people that have this super high need for closure are the same people who are associated with like super conservative, super not authoritarian, kind of. They're more comfortable with that. They wanna know, like black and white. This is yes and no. And they stop taking in new information, which is fascinating. Their need is to have unanswer, not the correct one. So once they get enough information to.

[Amanda Glennon]

Have unanswer, an answer, an like, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, like, it's not necessarily I'm going to take in all the information so I can get what is probably the most nuanced correct answer. It's I need a definitive answer. And once they have enough information for that, they stop accepting new information.

[Amanda Glennon]

Interesting, huh?

[Glennon Doyle]

I wonder if that's interesting. Those people. And when I say those people, it could be me too. I have no idea. This group of people who are so into closure because we need black and white, they need the story, they need whatever to move on are also the people that tend to self sabotage. Here's the connection between these two. Self sabotage means I might want something, I might hope for something, I might work for something. But there's this moment or long eternity of uncertainty. Will I get it or not? Will I, I might want that relationship. I'm, I'm in it. It might happen. It might happen. I might get that job, I might have this friendship, but I sabotage it. We get questions about this all the time. Like I do a thing to end it, whether it's a conscious thing, a subconscious, I do something to end it. Why? Why? Why do we self sabotage? Because we so hate ambiguity. We so hate not knowing what might happen, that we will ensure we don't get what we want just to have a black and white end. We would rather tolerate the no than tolerate. I don't know. So that's forced closure to this longing, to this hope. I would rather just say fuck it. No, I don't have to even long for it anymore than to sit in the uncertainty of unknowing whether I will get that thing or not. It's a way of taking control. I'd rather just not get it.

[Abby Wambach]

Or I'd rather be the one that says no. That's ensuring I don't get it rather than waiting around for someone else to do that to me. Like, I'm going to sabotage this and end this before you end this. Because then at least I can have been the one to do it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, it's another form of closure, right? It's I force this closure because the giving away power to anyone else or to the not knowing or to the ambiguity of life is more painful than. I just think that's interesting about people, that we would rather suffer with a no than suffer in a maybe.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it is. It's interesting because just the whole idea of living, the whole idea of needing things to be meaningful, the need to make meaning out of things, the need to take any situation and extrapolate a meaning or a sequence of events, or in a beginning, a middle and an end. This is how our relationship started. Here's how it was in the middle. I need to know how to end. I need to know how I'm going to tell myself and how I'm going to tell the rest of the world how this relationship ended. I mean, I remember that was my biggest horrible thing in my marriage is that one day it was like, this is over. We had two five minute discussions about it. Then I discovered all of this other information and I didn't know what my story was. I didn't know, like, did this happen before? Is this the reason my marriage is over? Did this happen after? Is this what I needed? What do I tell myself about what happened here?

[Amanda Glennon]

That's interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

What do I tell other people about what happened here? I need to make sure, is this guy a bad guy? Is this guy a good guy? Was this just a very complicated situation? And it's really, really the most uncomfortable thing is living in that ambiguity. And I think it's really merciful to ourselves to not berate ourselves for the need for that. To be like, this is the human condition. Of course you want clarity. Of course it would be so much more comfortable and make this already excruciatingly impossible situation just a little tiny bit easier to have your definitive answer. And if you want that, and that's going to help you survive, great, latch onto your definitive answer and also just know that you are necessarily cutting out other information, that you are sacrificing the fullness of the information in order to accept your one definitive answer. And including information about you, including information. I had to go back and look at myself and be like, actually, when I decide he's a cheating bad guy, and if that's the only information I allow in, I am not allowing in the information that shows me about me who chose this person, that shows me about me that related to this relationship in this way for so long to also get us here. And, like, that's at my detriment that I don't look at that information. And that's really scary. And then they do these studies and they find out that, like, the people who have the low need, not the lowest, not the people who avoid closure because they're the people, like you said Glennon, where they keep reaching out because they can't handle an answer at all. They need it to keep going.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

The people who are like, I can live with this ambiguity, are the more creative people. They let in all the information. They're actually more creative. They allow things in. They create things with it. They imagine all the possibilities. It's really kind of cool when you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Think of it that way.

[Abby Wambach]

It's like you're being a fundamentalist. You're being like a Christian fundamentalist about your relationship. When you decide this is what happened and that's the end of the story, it's like there's never. That's the end of the story.

[Amanda Glennon]

I think where the rub is is when we get into relationship with people who have a different definition or a different need in the way that they view closure. So I've been in relationships before where somebody did not care to create a moment of closure. And I kept trying to figure it out. And so, like, that was, like, so crazy making for me. And then eventually I had to be the one that gave myself the closure.

[Abby Wambach]

Totally. I've never had a moment of even coming within a mile of closure that involved anyone else.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's good.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, that's so right.

[Abby Wambach]

Because you're faking. If you're trying to get as much information as you can to come up with an answer, you're basing your closure on what this person who, by definition, you're no longer in relationship with. They're giving you the information that you're basing your closure on.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's not closure.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think we three probably agree that one thing we know is that closure, if it is real, is something that you give yourself.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is not something you get from an institution or another person or anybody. That's not, that's not how it works.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And maybe there's just when it comes to loss, it's like divinity. It's like there's a way to approach it, which is fundamentalist and that has to do with control and narrative and protection. And it's like being in a little tiny box. And then there's another way to approach it, which is more on the side of mysticism, which has a lot to do with awe and wonder and I don't know. And you know, maybe you could hack the system. Maybe there's a way of giving yourself a story so that you have the thing that you know, but the story is not. Well, he's a dick and I was good and I tried or whatever it is. It's not detailed. It's like people make interesting decisions and relationships don't always last forever. And in the fullness of time, you'll see this a million different ways. And like, maybe that's enough of a story for your little brain, our brains, to go, okay, that's something. But it's mystical and wide enough to allow yourself to look back on the situation a million different times and see it a million different ways and have it inform your future relationships in a way that doesn't cast people in stone as right, wrong, good, bad, all of that.

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Tiny particles of plastic?

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Glennon]

I feel like the best definition of closure I can come up with in this moment is like, oh, I can move beyond this. I can move forward with my life. It's accepting what is. And it doesn't mean that this thought or feeling or whatever is something that you will never experience or be able to think about or feel again. It just means it will no longer control your life in a way.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Marlena talks about the hole in her heart like why if I have closure, do I still have the hole in my heart? And I don't think that closure is filling the hole in the heart. It's not fixing the hole in the heart. It's carrying on with a holy heart. It's knowing that that hole in your heart is not an accident. It's not a mistake. It's part of you becoming realer and more beautiful and softer and wider and truer. That it's all completely okay. That the best people are just like Swiss cheese hearts.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yeah. You know, accepting that you have a.

[Glennon Doyle]

Swiss cheese heart and the openness that comes with that. A Swiss cheese heart is an open heart. Right. It's like an openness to the next thing. It's not allowing that hole in your heart to shut you down to the next beautiful thing. Right. It's just.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. There's no moving beyond anything.

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, there's no moving beyond a death. There's no moving beyond a relationship of significance. There's no moving beyond. It's just. You're moving with that.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're moving with this.

[Abby Wambach]

Nevertheless, she persisted, like, you have the thing and you are going on and it's with you forever. I just am suspect of anyone who's like, I have closure. I'm finished with that. That relationship's in the past. Like, or maybe it's just me. I feel like every relationship I ever had is present in my current relationship.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me, too. And I really believe this. I think I texted this to a friend recently. It seemed like an epiphany to me at the time. I am quite certain that I have never in my entire life gotten over anything. I'm serious. I mean that deeply. I am still looking back at things from memories from childhood. Things that happened when I was 10, 13, things that was set. I'm seeing it like it's a kaleidoscope, all these different ways. It's still hurts. Things that I remember from 30 years ago still hurt. I get mad about people that I think about something they said to me when I was 17. I don't think that's a problem. I don't know how we would get over anything. What does that mean? Like, forget about it.

[Abby Wambach]

Harden to it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Harden to it?

[Abby Wambach]

Does it mean harden to it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, it's all packaged up in a little case that's glass and you can't get to it. Like, I am everything that has ever happened to me. And I'm trying to arrange it, use it, see it all in a way that makes my next moment more beautiful. But I do not believe that I. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying if getting over things is a thing I have Never done it.

[Amanda Glennon]

Are you still in resentment then of some of the things that have happened?

[Glennon Doyle]

Sometimes, yeah. But I think it's. Resentment is a place that I touch, feel, notice, is a signal to me that maybe I've got some self care stuff to do. Yes, but I understand what resentment is, that it's not something for me that I can sit in for too long without examining.

[Amanda Glennon]

It's kind of like you can forgive someone or something, but you'll never forget.

[Abby Wambach]

I forget what conversation it was recently where we were talking about grieving and it's almost like we need a much wider definition for grieving. Oh, I remember what it was. It was a question that the woman called in and said that her mom never let her get a big head and so is always like cutting her down. And so now when she hears women being praised and pumped up, she has like a deep discomfort and she wants to take him down a notch. And then she feels like shit about it because she doesn't want to be that person. And we were talking about how instead of beating herself up for being that, maybe she could acknowledge that that is a place of grief for her, that she has to grieve, that she never got those things.

[Glennon Doyle]

And.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm just wondering if the idea of closure is like the inability to be in a perpetual state of grief. Like to be joyful about all the things there are to be joyful about and to be grieving all the things there are to be grieving about. Like you saying you've never gotten over anything. Anytime you think of one of those things, it's like a little bit of grief of my little baby self had to deal with that, or my teenage self had to go through that, or when you think about your brother, there's no closure there. Every time you touch that or think about that, it's grief. Every time you think about a relationship that was both really bad and really awesome, you're carrying that grief with you always. It's just, I don't know, we just think of it as a really time limited thing and I'm not sure that it is. I think that maybe all of life is just a trying to be living and trying to be grieving.

[Glennon Doyle]

Relationships and loss are a mystery. They are a mystery. You can try to make them a science. You can try to become a forensic reporter or whatever about a relationship or loss or death or whatever. But good luck, because all we know about them is that no one knows about them.

[Abby Wambach]

That's part of what we're grieving. Yeah, it's A fucking mystery. We're never going to figure it out.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, people do this. Oh, my God. Like, I want to be in relationship with the divine. I want spirituality to be part of my life. So I'm going to write down these 10 things that are sure about God. Like, no, you have by definition entered a place of mystery and you're trying to reduce it to a story or a dogma. And so maybe that's the same, like, people and our relationships are as beautiful and mysterious and wild as divinity. And so maybe the people who do best are the ones who give their whole hearts and stay open and hold it all very lightly and not try to be forensic experts about something that is in itself a wild mystery. And that, my friends, is what they call closure.

[Abby Wambach]

We're closing our conversation about closure. Shall we listen to Rebecca?

[Glennon Doyle]

Only some of the pod squatters are going to know what I just did there. But for those of you who know.

[Caller]

You know, hello, lovelies. My name is Rebecca. I am 30 years old and I am calling because I was wondering how Lennon and Abby navigated the moving conversation. Amanda, I'm not sure if you've made like a big move with your husband. If you have, I would love your input. If you haven't, you'll always love your input. But my family's from the west coast, his family's from the East Coast. And we've been doing our best to go back and forth, but we're thinking of having children and settling down. And I just don't know how we settle where we go. And he's right to want to be near his family, I'm right to want to be near mine. So I was hoping you could say some more things about that. And I love you guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love this question. It's so interesting. We've never talked about this about, like, we have opposite vibes in terms of, like, I live a life of a nomad in that I have moved every few years. I see that from different perspectives. One of them is that I was always looking. My 12 step friends will understand that sometimes people like me who have a internal discomfort or restlessness seek a geographical solution. That's what we call it. The problem is not me. It's just like a different climate constantly. It's just a different vibe. It's the city, it's this house, it's this town. You just are constantly thinking that maybe things will be better if there was a new town. So there's a negative way to look at it.

[Amanda Glennon]

There's a positive way of looking at that, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me too. I love. I think that my kids have feelings, perhaps, about having moved too much. I have a lot of shame about that.

[Amanda Glennon]

They do.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think it's hard to be raised by a person who's trying to find themselves, but maybe. Maybe harder to be raised by a person who's not trying to find themselves, so.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm okay. I'm okay with it. I really am. There's.

[Amanda Glennon]

There's pros and cons to both, I'm sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. I can tell you about. I'll just give my take on a move. I want to hear you, sister, because I have so much awe and respect for people who stay in the same place forever and, like, grow roots and are, like, pillars of their community. Like, I. It terrifies me so much. Like, if I moved, most of my community would say, wait, she lived here? Okay, so that's the vibe that I have gone for. But I do feel that it matters to me. Like, my environment I am in matters so much to my mental health and the way that I feel each day. I've never felt more alive or comfortable or in my zone of comfort than I do living in California. And I don't know, like, when I go back to the East Coast, I feel. I think there's a lot tied to it. Like, I feel like I'm going back to my childhood. I feel like I'm going back to. There's. It's very loaded. But it does matter to me. I do know that it's not just a geographical solution. Like, it matters to me where I am, and I think I'm in the right. The move for us was the right thing for all of us.

[Amanda Glennon]

Can I ask you a question?

[Glennon Doyle]

You may.

[Amanda Glennon]

Does it feel to you like all of the moves that you made were specific to what healing you were trying to go through during that time? So when you go back to certain places, does it feel like you're moving backwards in time?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda Glennon]

I get that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep. I mean, you know, my thing is, like, every day we live close enough to the ocean, the Pacific Ocean, to see it. And every day I look at the coast and I think the thought, well, I've gone as far as I can go, and I don't know what that means. I just know that I like to live on the edge of things. I like to have gone as far as I can go. I don't like the feeling of being trapped in any way, which being landlocked makes me feel trapped. When Abby lived in Portland. Portland is, like, the coolest city but she was having depression. I said to her, no, no, people like us can't live in Portland like we're Portland on the inside. So we need the opposite of that on the outside. It's balance to me. You know, it's like I actually need to be reminded. I don't need to be reminded every day that things can be dark and sad and heavy and rainy. Got it. I have already figured that out before I get out of bed. Like, I have that nailed. What I need to remember every day is people moving and sun and dogs outside and kids running around and a lightness that I can plug into and that balances me out. I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think Alma is so cool. Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that. That level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress better with people. Better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a l m a.com hardthings.

[Amanda Doyle]

On this show, we talk a lot about resilience and what it really means.

[Abby Wambach]

To support one another.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Amanda Glennon]

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[Amanda Glennon]

Sister, can I ask you a question about when you knew you were going to like lay down some roots? Did you always know that you would live in like the Northern Virginia D.C. area?

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, I think I either thought I was going to do that or I was going to live abroad and have a totally different life. One of the other. I wouldn't have wanted to live in the exact town we grew up in. It's interesting that you say, like, you admire people who stay in the same place because I've always thought that maybe I was missing something, that I don't think that I could just move my family to another place. Like it feels like you have to have a kind of audacity and sense of self and identity to be like, oh, we're just by ourselves, just our little peopledom unattached to anything else, are like sturdy enough to just up and replant somewhere else. Yes, I can see how it would be an escape thing of running around and avoiding getting too attached anywhere. But there's also a very cool kind of strength in it too. To be like, I am here and then I'm gonna go somewhere else and I'm still gonna be who I am. As opposed to I me am defined by who I am and where I am and all the people around me and all the things that I've built for the last however long like that you trust that you'll go to another place and all that will still be there. So I don't know if it's actually like a very mature way of being. Like, I actually. Who I am is very interdependent and is all of these things. And it's a fiction to believe who you are is just your little person and wherever you go, that goes with you. Or it's a kind of very shallow sense of self, of I need all of this around me to define who I am.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I think that it makes sense though. Right. Because I don't think either of them are good or bad or right or wrong. They're just like different ways of looking at things. And there's benefits of both. I do feel like I've always been more like, adamantly. I have to figure things out. I have to start a new thing. I want to start a new thing. Break with tradition, break with a lot of things. Like break with generational stuff, break with patterns. I want to create a new thing for my little family. And that is what has happened. And there are sacrifices of that which is like tradition and generational ties and all of that. And there are benefits, which is being a catalyst of a vibe, of a creation that is just intentional and is not informed by tradition and is a.

[Abby Wambach]

Begin again, begin again, begin again, begin again kind of a way of doing life.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, what about Rebecca, who's beginning again, beginning again? Considering with her, she's trying to actually decide, does she go with west coast, her people, east coast, his people, if they're settling down?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I don't see a couple ideas, which is neither. Like, what about starting in a brand new place and being halfway between. I also. My inner eyebrow raises every time someone assumes that the closer they are to their family, the better the family relationship's.

[Abby Wambach]

Going to be or the easier it'll be on them.

[Glennon Doyle]

All I'm saying is I don't see that playing out as often as one would think. I sometimes see that the people who have the best relationships with their extended families are people who have their own thing going and dip in, in and out. Okay. I've seen it done beautifully always. But I think sometimes having your own thing.

[Amanda Glennon]

Totally. I just want to kind of add on to that because I think it's important for Rebecca to really figure out if, in fact she wants to move back to her family and if in fact, her husband truly wants to move back to their family. Because is it just for nostalgic reasons or is it to be closer to the family. Because this is what you think you were taught that you need to do. Like, well, of course I'll just always end up close to my family. In my mind, there is always another way that you can accomplish some of these things, right? It might mean more travel, it might mean more bravery in some ways to, like, go start your life anew somewhere. Where do you want to live? Is my question.

[Abby Wambach]

Where do you want to live? And if you're going for help, I heard an implicit idea of help because we are going to start a family. I don't know how to settle where we go. To me, that's like, okay, do you think that you're going to get help where you're going? In which case, I think you make a real tactical spreadsheet. Like, how warm does it feel to be in this place? Your honest answer. Does it feel happy? Does it feel warm? Do you want to be there? Do you want to live there? Who do you think's helping you? Seriously, who's helping you? Because I'll tell you one thing, the people who say I'm going to help you so much, they're not talking every Wednesday. You need to actually delineate. If you think Nana's helping you, you might want to confirm that assumption. You might want to figure out, is it going to be once a month? Because in which case, maybe you're not moving there for once a month. Help. Are we talking every Wednesday? Help? That's a factor. That's a real factor. But, like, really get tactical about it, because the idea of family versus the reality of family, you might be talking about you're getting help once a month, but you're expected to be at dinner once a week.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you want dinner once a week?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And like, here's what I wonder about other people. Because I think the truth of it for me is that I realized when I was going to have my own little family of humans, that I had to be a grown up. I understood that I have to be now a grown up. What I notice about myself when I'm around my family of origin is that I change a little bit. I have, like, sort of these regressive things. I become my mother's daughter, my father's daughter. I act, my kids notice it. I'm talking at my healthiest, okay? Like, it's not without work. I'm just being honest and saying that there's something that shifts inside of me where I lose some of my agency, my clarity, my leadership. I am no longer Glennon, the Human, the mother, the leader, the wife. I am something else. And I think that's what I noticed. I want to be a mother. I don't want to be a daughter.

[Amanda Glennon]

That's the difference. Most people feel safety in feeling like somebody else has got me.

[Glennon Doyle]

So do other people feel they don't feel that regression?

[Amanda Glennon]

No. I mean, some people might feel that feeling, but it doesn't insult their soul.

[Abby Wambach]

It might be more comfortable for them to be a daughter than living in the discomfort of a new role of being a mother.

[Amanda Glennon]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you feel a regression? Do you know, does that, what I'm saying, make any sense?

[Abby Wambach]

It does make a lot of sense. I think in isolated situations, I do feel like I am a little different in those relationships than I am in the rest of my life. I don't feel like my role or the way I mother is operating at a deficit or operating differently because of proximity. But I think in certain situations I'm like, hmm, that's so funny that that's the way I am in this situation.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Like, I remember, you know, raising young little ones and being close to family and having a double consciousness of, like, I'm worried about your little tantrum. But I'm also thinking about how my parents are perceiving this tantrum and I'm bringing their values into the situation and I'm caretaking their feelings and I'm also.

[Abby Wambach]

Protecting my kid from them instead of just being the thing that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Or not more often, more often I was not. I was going back to prioritizing their comfort over what I knew was right in this moment or placating or. It makes me understand very much. And this is very individualistic and probably Western, but you know, all the rituals of, like, when you're a grown up, you have to get, like, banished from the tribe. And it's not a punishment. It's necessary because you are a pioneer of your life and your family and you do regress. I did not want to raise my parents grandchild.

[Abby Wambach]

Say that again.

[Glennon Doyle]

I did not want to raise my parents grandchild. I wanted to raise my baby and a human being with my best guess at what freedom and nurture and all of it looked like. And there's this thing that happens when I'm around my family where their values creep in and I turn backwards towards their values as opposed to forward towards the little, you know, thing that we've created together. And I must avoid that, even if it means missing out on some things, even if it means if there's a price to pay for it. I know myself and myself as a mother and a human being, and I needed that freedom in order to create something new.

[Amanda Glennon]

Damn it. That's really fucking good.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So it isn't a neutral thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Like on the spreadsheet, it needs to be acknowledged that when you move close to family, your family or their family or both, you are not going from blank to. Plus Wednesday help. You're not going from blank to. But they'll be able to be raised with their cousins. You are going to all of those good things. And also you're going to have to really steer through a lot of these very complicated dynamics with eyes wide open. You're going to have to make sure you and your partner are very clear about what is okay on either side of the family, that you want to integrate in your own and what is not okay with both of you about either side of the family. And that you are going to have a united front against and keep out. Because if not goodbye, say goodbye to your relationship. Bye.

[Glennon Doyle]

Bye.

[Abby Wambach]

Because that is done metaphorically.

[Glennon Doyle]

If I and my partner were deciding between whether we should live near her parents in California or my parents in Virginia, I would suggest I. Alaska. Like metaphorically or Arkansas. I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

Just something one of the Dakotas looks good.

[Glennon Doyle]

A Dakota?

[Amanda Glennon]

What's wrong with the Dakota instead of Wyoming? Yeah, just something into Wyoming or Montana. Lots of land.

[Glennon Doyle]

If you are the type that wants to not recreate, but create, because some kind of help is the kind of help that we all can live without, as Marlo Thomas told us. Okay, good luck. POD Squad, we love you so much. Is there anything that you two would like to leave us with so that we can give these people some closure? Okay, that's it. That's all we've got today. And that is damn good enough. COD Squad, we love you. We will see you back here next time. Bye. Bye.

[Caller]

Bye.

[Glennon Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.