We Can Do Hard Things – “The Closure Myth: How Do We Really Move On?” (Best Of)

Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Date: August 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the elusive idea of “closure” in all its forms—grief, loss, the end of relationships, and life’s constant search for “moving on.” Sparked by two listener questions, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda break down what closure really means, whether it’s achievable, and how it affects our ability to heal and evolve. In their signature honest, humorous, and vulnerable style, they challenge the cultural myth that we must “get over” the hard things, unpacking why carrying our wounds might actually make us wiser and softer.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Vibes: Doing Hard Things on Tired Days

[02:18]–[05:18]

• The episode begins with a candid exchange about a frustrating morning—no coffee filters, improvised solutions, and Amanda’s attempts at “mind over matter.”
• The tone is honest and light—emphasizing that not every day is perfectly optimistic, and embracing “faking it” on tired days is okay.
• “Maybe we don’t have the magical optimism that one might hope a host of a podcast has.” – Glennon [05:18]

What Is Closure?

[06:17]–[13:00]

The Listener’s Question:

Marlena calls in, asking:
“What exactly is closure? Do we ever really get closure? When someone is gone, the hole in the heart still feels present.” [06:17]

Honest Reflections:

• Amanda:

  • Questions the very existence of closure, especially after her brother’s passing.
  • “You just learn to carry it with you always… You still will never really know.” [07:27–09:18]
  • Suggests that what is called ‘closure’ in true crime stories often just means family gets more information, but the real loss remains.

• Glennon:

  • Discusses ambiguous loss and the unique pain of not knowing.
  • Even when you get “information” you expect will be relieving, it rarely resolves the core pain.
  • “What’s bringing you the most pain is not that you don’t know what happened, it’s that it happened.” [09:19]

• Amanda:

  • The closest thing to closure is acceptance—not a magical “moving on.”
  • “Closure is a little bow we like to put on shit so that we don’t think we have to deal with it anymore.” [10:56]

• Glennon:

  • “Closure” is a personal, internal decision, not something you can extract from someone else.
  • “You don’t use an opener to get closure. If you truly want closure, you and yourself can decide that you have closure.” [11:30]

Notable Quote:

• “Closure is a singular decision to me. I don’t need the other person’s thing.” – Glennon [12:04]

Closure in Relationships & the Psychology Behind It

[13:00]–[20:58]

• Abby:

  • Introduces “cognitive closure”—a psychological term denoting our need for a firm, clear answer to avoid ambiguity.
  • Describes how people with a high need for closure don’t always pursue truth, but any answer that allows them to “close the book,” often at the expense of new information.
  • Links high need for closure with craving order, predictability, and even certain worldview traits.

• Glennon:

  • Connects high need for closure to self-sabotage; sometimes people end things prematurely just to escape uncertainty.
  • “We would rather suffer with a No than suffer in a Maybe.” [17:27]

• Abby:

  • Shares personally about her divorce, and how her compulsion for a “story” to tell herself and others was part of searching for closure.
  • Warns that those who grab a quick answer may miss the fullness, nuance, and self-reflection inherent in the real process.

• Amanda:

  • The people most creative are those who tolerate some ambiguity.
  • “The people who are like, ‘I can live with this ambiguity’—they’re actually more creative. They allow things in and imagine possibilities.” [20:40]

Notable Quote:

• “If you’re trying to get as much information as you can to come up with an answer, you’re basing your closure on what this person… gives you. That’s not closure.” – Abby [21:47]

Giving Yourself Closure—And Why It’s Always an Inside Job

[21:49]–[23:54]

• All three hosts agree: closure, if it even exists, can only ever be an internal, self-given state.
• Glennon draws an analogy: some people approach loss with rigidity and dogma (fundamentalism and narrative control), while others remain open, mystical, and tolerant of life’s mysteries.
• “Maybe there’s a way of giving yourself a story so you have the thing that you know, but it’s mystical and wide enough to allow you to see it in a million different ways.” – Glennon [23:35]

Living With the 'Swiss Cheese' Heart: Why Closure Isn’t Healing the Hole

[26:59]–[32:36]

• Amanda:

  • Defines closure as the capacity to move forward, carrying the memory or pain, but not being controlled by it.
  • “It just means it will no longer control your life…” [27:27]

• Glennon:

  • Beautiful metaphor:
    • “It’s not filling the hole in the heart. It’s carrying on with a holy heart… The best people are just like Swiss cheese hearts.” [27:27–28:03]
  • We don’t “move beyond” pain; we move with it.

• Abby:

  • “There’s no moving beyond a death. You’re moving with that.” [28:32]

On “Getting Over It”:

• Glennon admits:
  • “I am quite certain that I have never in my entire life gotten over anything.” [28:58]
  • Remembers and revisits pain from decades ago—believes it’s part of being human, not a flaw.
• Amanda and Abby: Sometimes forgiveness happens, but forgetting or permanent detachment rarely does.

Notable Moment:

• Abby:
  • Redefines grieving as an ongoing state, not a one-and-done process.
  • “I’m just wondering if the idea of closure is the inability to be in a perpetual state of grief…” [31:36]

Final Reflections—Mystery Over Mastery

[32:36]–[33:50]

• All hosts summarize:
  • Grief and lost relationships are fundamentally mysterious. Attempts to “scientifically” or forensically explain them will fall short.
  • “Relationships and loss are a mystery. You can try to make them a science… but good luck.” – Glennon [32:36]
  • The healthiest approach is to stay open, hold things lightly, and accept that some things are unknowable.

Listener Q2: Navigating “Where Should We Move?” With a Partner

[34:00]–[53:08]

Rebecca’s Question:

• Torn between the West Coast (her family) and East Coast (partner's family) for settling down and starting a family.
• Both desire to be near their respective families; seeking advice on how to decide.

Glennon’s Take:

• Has always been nomadic; admits seeking “geographical solutions” for discomfort might not fix inner struggles.
• But also recognizes that the environment deeply affects her wellbeing.
• “My environment matters so much to my mental health and the way that I feel each day.” [36:09]

Amanda’s Reflection:

• Admires those who stay rooted and wonders if her own (less nomadic) approach is better/worse/different.
• Raises question of defining yourself by place, tradition, or the relationships you’ve nurtured.

Abby’s Perspective:

• Urges practical, tactical thinking:
  • Why do you want to be near family? Is it nostalgia, genuine help, or social expectation?
  • Advocates for a “spreadsheet” approach:
    • How much real help will you get?
    • What are the social/family obligations?
    • Is it about support, or pressure?
  • “Who do you think’s helping you? Because the people who say, ‘I’m going to help you so much’… you might want to confirm that assumption.” [48:00]

The Challenge of Regression:

• Glennon:
  • Recognizes that returning to family settings can cause “regression”—becoming someone’s child instead of stepping into your own parental or adult role.
  • “I did not want to raise my parents’ grandchild—I wanted to raise my baby.” [52:23]
• All agree: living close to family is not a neutral decision. It brings both tangible positives (help, traditions) and possible negatives (loss of autonomy, role regression, family-of-origin baggage).

Notable Quotes:

• “Some kind of help is the kind of help we all can live without, as Marlo Thomas told us.” – Glennon [54:30]
• “If not, say goodbye to your relationship. Bye!” – Abby, playfully emphasizing the need for boundaries [54:03]

Notable Quotes and Moments

• Glennon:

  • “Closure is a singular decision. I actually don’t need the other person’s thing.” [12:04]
  • “The best people are just like Swiss cheese hearts.” [28:03]
  • “I am quite certain that I have never in my entire life gotten over anything.” [28:58]

• Amanda:

  • “Closure is a little bow we like to put on shit so that we don't think we have to deal with it anymore.” [10:56]

• Abby:

  • “The people who are like, 'I can live with this ambiguity,' are the more creative people.” [20:40]
  • “There's no moving beyond a death. You’re moving with that.” [28:32]
  • “If not goodbye, say goodbye to your relationship. Bye!” [54:03]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:17]: Marlena asks: What is closure?
• [09:19]: The risk of seeking closure in more information
• [13:00]: Cognitive closure & psychology behind craving answers
• [17:27]: Self-sabotage to escape uncertainty
• [20:40]: Creativity and ambiguity
• [27:27]: “Swiss cheese hearts”: accepting ongoing wounds
• [28:58]: “I have never gotten over anything”—honest truth about grief
• [36:09]: The geographic solutions to life’s restlessness
• [48:00]: Practical advice on moving for family/help
• [52:23]: On not wanting to regress to "child" in proximity to parents

Tone & Takeaway

The episode is raw, compassionate, and truth-telling. Rather than offering false optimism or pat answers, the hosts embrace the messy, ongoing work of living with grief, ambiguity, and change. You won’t walk away thinking you need to “get closure” to be okay. Instead, you’ll feel invited to honor your own story, accept that wounds linger, and recognize that carrying loss is part of becoming textured and open-hearted—a little “swiss cheese heart” moving bravely and honestly through it all.

For those struggling to move on, this episode will validate your feelings, challenge common platitudes, and offer community in uncertainty.