The Closure Myth: How Do We Really Move On?

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things: Episode Summary - "The Closure Myth: How Do We Really Move On?"

Release Date: December 5, 2024
Host/Authors: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of We Can Do Hard Things, Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle delve deep into the concept of closure—a topic that resonates with anyone navigating the tumultuous waters of loss, grief, or the end of significant relationships. Through honest conversations and shared personal experiences, the trio explores whether closure is attainable or merely a comforting myth we create to ease our pain.

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Listener Question: Understanding Closure After Loss

The episode kicks off with a poignant question from a listener named Marlena (06:22), who grapples with the elusive nature of closure following the loss of a loved one. She questions the validity of closure, especially when the emotional void remains unfilled despite external assurances of having achieved it.

Marlena's Question:

"What exactly is closure, and do we ever really get closure? Love you guys so much."

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Defining Closure: Personal Insights

Glennon Doyle shares her perspective, emphasizing that closure is not about closing a door but rather learning to carry the loss with us. She reflects on her own grief for her brother, suggesting that true closure might be synonymous with acceptance of the reality that loss is an enduring part of life.

[10:57] Abby Wambach: "So acceptance is the only real closure to you?"

Abby Wambach reinforces this by asserting that closure is something individuals grant themselves rather than something obtained externally. She likens the process to maintaining an open heart, referencing the metaphor of a "Swiss cheese heart"—embracing the holes and imperfections as part of one's being.

[22:20] Abby Wambach: "Closure, if it is real, is something that you give yourself."

Amanda Doyle adds depth by discussing the psychological need for closure, termed cognitive closure—the brain's desire for definitive answers to alleviate ambiguity. She explains how individuals with a high need for closure might seek out excessive information or even self-sabotage relationships to force an end.

[17:13] Amanda Doyle: "Our relationship started. Here's how it was in the middle. I need to know how it end."

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The Psychological Need for Closure

The conversation transitions into the psychological aspects of closure, with Amanda elaborating on cognitive closure. She explains that those with a high need for closure often crave clear-cut answers to maintain a sense of predictability and safety in their relationships and personal lives.

[14:11] Amanda Doyle: "They're more comfortable with that. They want to know, like black and white. This is yes and no."

This segment highlights the challenges of achieving closure, especially when dealing with ambiguous losses—situations where individuals are left with unresolved questions, deepening their grief rather than alleviating it.

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Relationship Dynamics and Closure

The hosts discuss how the pursuit of closure can influence relationship dynamics. Abby Wambach points out that seeking closure from another person often ends up being an attempt to gain control rather than truly finding peace.

[12:09] Amanda Doyle: "I am shutting this door right now."

They emphasize that closure is a personal journey, one that cannot be fully granted by others or by external events. Instead, it requires an internal shift towards acceptance and moving forward.

[28:19] Glennon Doyle: "I can move beyond this. I can move forward with my life."

Amanda Doyle introduces the metaphor of a "Swiss cheese heart", illustrating an open heart that embraces both past pains and future possibilities without being hindered by them.

[28:37] Amanda Doyle: "Swiss cheese heart is an open heart."

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Listener Question: Navigating Geographical Settling Down

Another listener, Rebecca, poses a practical yet emotionally charged question about deciding where to settle down when both partners' families are located in different regions.

Rebecca's Question:

"We're thinking of having children and settling down, and I just don't know how we settle where we go."

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Navigating Relationships and Family Proximity

The hosts offer diverse perspectives on geographical settling. Abby Wambach shares her experiences of frequent moves, attributing them to a search for personal healing and balance. She contrasts this with the desire to establish roots, highlighting the internal conflicts that arise when trying to honor both personal needs and familial ties.

[36:05] Abby Wambach: "I need to be reminded... I have that nailed."

Amanda Doyle provides a strategic approach, advising couples to tackle the decision tactically by assessing the practical aspects such as the level of support from families, the impact on their own family dynamics, and the emotional implications of living near or far from extended relatives.

[48:20] Amanda Doyle: "Do you want dinner once a week?"

She stresses the importance of clear communication and united decision-making to navigate the complexities of integrating two families into a new household without losing their own identity.

Glennon Doyle emphasizes the necessity for Rebecca to evaluate her true desires and motivations behind moving—whether it's driven by nostalgia or genuine needs for support and stability.

[36:27] Glennon Doyle: "Is it just for nostalgic reasons or is it to be closer to the family?"

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Final Thoughts on Closure and Moving Forward

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reiterate that closure is not a finite end but an ongoing process of carrying and integrating past experiences into one's present and future. They highlight the importance of embracing ambiguity and recognizing that life’s mysteries and relationships are perpetual sources of growth and understanding.

Abby Wambach eloquently summarizes the essence of closure as moving forward with an open heart, allowing past experiences to inform but not dictate one's future.

[28:19] Abby Wambach: "It's carrying on with a whole heart... Swiss cheese hearts."

Glennon Doyle adds that accepting closure means acknowledging that while the pain remains, it no longer controls one's life.

[27:44] Glennon Doyle: "It doesn't mean that this thought or feeling... will no longer control your life."

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Conclusion

In "The Closure Myth: How Do We Really Move On?", Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle offer a profound exploration of closure, challenging the conventional notion that it signifies the end of grief or the resolution of emotional turmoil. Instead, they present closure as a personal, ongoing journey of acceptance, integration, and the continuous pursuit of meaning amidst life's inherent uncertainties. This episode serves as a compassionate guide for listeners seeking to understand and navigate their own paths toward healing and acceptance.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Abby Wambach (10:57): "So acceptance is the only real closure to you?"
• Abby Wambach (22:20): "Closure, if it is real, is something that you give yourself."
• Glennon Doyle (28:19): "I can move beyond this. I can move forward with my life."
• Amanda Doyle (28:37): "Swiss cheese heart is an open heart."

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, providing a comprehensive overview of the discussions on closure and moving on, enriched with direct quotes and structured to facilitate understanding for both regular listeners and newcomers.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

It's hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up. My dream mentor, Amy Poehler. I was so excited when I heard that she has a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. It's the only streaming platform where you can grow with over 200 of the world's top experts for just $10 a month. An annual membership gets you unlimited access to every instructor, whether you're watching on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even in audio mode. One of the classes that just really stood out to me was Building Life Changing Habits with New York Times bestselling author James Clear. I use this and you should too. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com hard things for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com hardthings masterclass.com hardthings this holiday season surprised.

[Abby Wambach]

Everyone on your list with the best gift of all tickets to see their favorite artist live. I really love this idea. Our family is trying to focus more on experiences than things. This is a cool way to do that. Whether they're into chart topping pop, classic rock, or hilarious comedy, you can give them the ultimate experience that they'll never forget. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows, including performances by Barrette Eldredge, Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica Rascal Flatts, Sarah Silverman and the Trans Siberian Orchestra, and so many more. Give a gift that's more than just something to unwrap. Share a memory together. Whether it's singing along to your favorite songs or laughing until your sides hurt, find the most exciting gift for every [e-mail] gifts the easiest way to gift experiences that will last a lifetime. Livenation.com gifts that's livenation.com gifts.

[Glennon Doyle]

It'S just one of them days where when you wake up, things aren't going as they normally do. For instance, we ran out of coffee filters. Oof. And I just was like when you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Throw a paper towel in there, that's what I did.

[Abby Wambach]

This one, she sits down on the couch, I go upstairs, where's the coffee? So we have this routine. One of us does the dogs, one of us does the coffees. Usually Abby does the dogs in the coffees. But the system is ideally that one of us does each, that I do.

[Glennon Doyle]

The dogs and that she does the coffee. But today I was upstairs first.

[Abby Wambach]

So I go upstairs and there's no coffees and she's sitting on the couch and I say, what is happening? And she says, bad news. We have no coffee filters. As if the next thing to do is not just rig anything like put.

[Amanda Doyle]

A sweaty means necessary assholes.

[Abby Wambach]

Put a sweater in there.

[Amanda Doyle]

Suck the coffee beans.

[Abby Wambach]

Put the coffee beans in the Vitamix. Do something.

[Glennon Doyle]

I ordered on Instacart filters and actually I needed to get more coffee because it needed to be $10, but that.

[Abby Wambach]

Was going to be an hour. Like I just. No, no, no, no, no.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I don't have that much of a. I prefer to have coffee first thing. But if I had to choose between a filter of paper towel that has little shards of like little glass in it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Why does paper towels have glass in it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Paper towels have like little weird shards of stuff.

[Abby Wambach]

If you gave me.

[Amanda Doyle]

Is that an act? Is that true?

[Abby Wambach]

I'm sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

Let me look it up.

[Abby Wambach]

No, don't look up.

[Glennon Doyle]

Somebody look it up.

[Amanda Doyle]

I want this paper towel has glass shards in it. Then this is a much bigger conversation than the coffee. We should be talking about this.

[Glennon Doyle]

I didn't want any of the paper towel in it.

[Abby Wambach]

If you gave me a choice of no coffee or just a roll of paper towels soaked in coffee, I would suck the coffee out of the paper towel roll.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so gross.

[Abby Wambach]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm just saying you'll do anything for me.

[Abby Wambach]

I'll do anything. I'll do anything for coffee. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So that's how this morning started. And then I just was like tired at my workout. I've just been like, kind of like tired.

[Abby Wambach]

But then tell them what you said to me in the kitchen after you came home and were saying this is just one of those days and nothing's going right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And then I said, I got a mind over matter this. I got to like change this vibe up. And so I just started to sing.

[Abby Wambach]

She did a little dance.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. You know that song? It's just one of them things, I.

[Abby Wambach]

Think when I want to be on my own. Just one of them days. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't. Is it just one of them days?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know any lyrics ever, so this is not surprising. But I'm trying to like, turn my frown upside down is what I'm trying to do.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Good for you. And it looks like it worked. Ish.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, no, no. I'm just faking it right now. Just faking it. But I have my coffee because the filters finally came.

[Abby Wambach]

You know what cheers us up when we have frowns is the pod squad. And this day is one of those days where maybe we don't have it. Maybe we don't have the magical optimism that one might hope a host of a podcast has.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you ever have magical optimism?

[Abby Wambach]

I have magical other things. I have magical pessimism. They come for both. The sky needs a sun and a moon. Abby Wambach.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right, baby. So, yeah, what are we doing today?

[Abby Wambach]

The beautiful thing about community is everyone doesn't have a bad day at the same time. And we get to step in and step out and step whatever. So today you all are carrying us. The pod squad is carrying us. We have some amazing questions and ideas that were shared from you into our inbox. And we are going to listen now. Let us start with Marlena.

[Marlena]

My name is Marlena. My pronouns are she, her. Hi, Amanda Glennon, and Abby. I was just calling because I'm wondering, what exactly is closure? I know oftentimes when somebody passes away, people will say, well, at least you've had that closure. You know, now you can gain some closure. And I'm not really sure what exactly I'm getting closure on when that hole in the heart still feels present. You know, I watch a lot of true crime documentaries, and oftentimes when bodies are found later on down the line, they say, well, now the family can have closure. And I guess I'm just wondering, what exactly is closure and do we ever really get closure? Love you guys so much.

[Glennon Doyle]

Marlena is my kind of girl. First of all, she's talking about grief and losing people. And second of all, she also, like me, is a true crime fan. And I have always had this question.

[Amanda Doyle]

So what's your take on the question? You've always had this question about closure.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, first of all, and more so since my brother has passed away, because I don't think that there's such thing. You don't, like, close the door on when somebody passes away. You just learn to carry it with you always. And I agree with her that, like in these true crime podcasts that I listen to, that's what the hosts always say. Well, you know, at least the family has closure. The detectives. And it's like, no, what you're saying is at least they have more information than they prior had, right? The person is still gone.

[Abby Wambach]

Part of a mystery has been solved.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

If there's a mystery, if you have an ambiguous loss, meaning you don't know what happened, that is a hard thing. There's a level of added grief onto the regular grief of it, apparently, where just the not Knowing deepens the pain. And so there is some kind of relief. I think. Not full relief, but some kind of relief that comes to people who get some information that make the mystery seem less scary and unsolved.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I mean, I hear that, but I don't believe that that's totally it either. I think that the mystery is a cover up. I think that in my case, at least, I was obsessed with trying to figure out what happened to my brother. That was a huge part of my early grief process and through a lot of my therapy. It is the fallacy that I was taught about justice and right and wrong and good and bad, that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. And, like, the truth is, even if you have the specificity on the death certificate or whatever it is, you still will never really know.

[Abby Wambach]

I wonder if that kind of closure makes a deeper pain happen. Because it reminds me of the things that we tell ourselves will fix it. Like something happens and then we tell ourselves, the reason I'm in so much pain is because I don't know this thing. And so then you attach yourself to, if I figure out this thing, I will have relief. And so I wonder if when you get that piece of information that you've been telling yourself will bring relief. I wonder if it's even harder then. Because of course, what's bringing you the most pain is not that you don't know what happened, it's that it happened.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And so now you've gotten what you thought would help, and it doesn't. And so now you're still left with the hole in your heart that Marlena is pointing towards.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. The thing that I think about a lot with this is that the closest thing that my understanding can get to closure is acceptance of what has happened, of what has transpired. I don't know if I am not 100% sure that I will ever heal from all of the major heartbreaks of my life fully. I am not sure if I will ever really get over the grief of losing my brother. What I know is coming to the acceptance of him being gone is the only thing that at this point in my grief process that I can assume will feel. Feel like this supposed closure.

[Abby Wambach]

Interesting. So acceptance is the only real closure to you?

[Glennon Doyle]

Maybe. And I don't know. I don't know what six months from now will look like or a year or five years. But I think closure is this little bow that we like to put on shit so that we don't think that we have to deal with it anymore. And I think that that is also a bill of goods that we're sold in the world.

[Abby Wambach]

I will tell you one thing I've noticed about the people that I know is that whenever anyone says to me, well, I'm just going to reach out to him one more time, because I just need closure. That is always a big lie. What they want is one more hit. What they want is opener. They want. You don't use an opener to get closure. Because if you truly want closure, you and yourself. You and yourself can decide that you have closure. It's like closure is a singular decision to me. Right. It's like I have decided this is over. I actually don't need the other person's. It's like going to someone to get closure. It's like banging on somebody's door, having them open it, and being like, I am here to tell you I am leaving this house. But you were.

[Amanda Doyle]

I am shutting this door right now.

[Abby Wambach]

But you weren't there before. Like, you needed the jolt of connection. You didn't need closure.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. It's interesting to hear you all talk about this and to hear Marlena talk about closure in terms of a death, because I get that when I hear you talk about it. And also, I always thought of closure in terms of relationships. Or I hear it more of just like, I don't understand what happened, or all of a sudden they just up and left. Or even friendships hear that a lot. Like, I was friends with this person for 10 years, and then they just kind of ghosted. And I don't have any closure. It's so awful. And psychologists who look at this, they say that the need for closure. First of all, it's called cognitive closure, which is amazing because that's in your brain. Like, your brain needs to understand it. And it's a psychological term that describes a need for a clear, firm answer to a question to avoid ambiguity. So it's like the need for a clear, firm answer. That's hilarious, right? Like, because there's never a singular, clear, firm answer. And so it's the same thing when you have that high need, and there's people with high need for closure, and there's people who avoid closure, and then there's people in the middle. And they've done all these studies of people, which is fascinating. But the people who have a high need for closure seek out information. So that's the people who say, I'm going to call one more time. They really believe that they are going to extract new information that will somehow lead them to a clear answer. And the whole thing is based on an ability to predict the world. Like, I need this closure, I need this answer. And I'm going to seek out as much information as I can get until I can get the answer. Because once I have this answer, I believe it will help me to predict what's going to happen in the world.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

It will make me safer in future relationships, it will make me safer in other friendships because I will understand that this isn't just like a random crazy ass thing that someone did to me. It is part of an orderly flow of events. Or like I can understand that something happened to my brother and it was probably a result of him doing X. So if I avoid X, I'll be fine.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's all like this deep, deep comfort with insecurity, with uncertainty and randomness. And when they look at these people and they study them, the same people that have this super high need for closure are the same people who are associated with like super conservative, super not authoritarian, kind of. They're more comfortable with that. They want to know, like black and white. This is yes and no. And they stop taking in new information, which is fascinating. Their need is to have an answer, not the correct one. So once they get enough information to.

[Glennon Doyle]

Have unanswer an answer, a N, like.

[Amanda Doyle]

A. Yeah, like, like, it's not necessarily I'm going to take in all the information so I can get what is probably the most nuanced correct answer. It's I need a definitive answer. And once they have enough information for that, they stop accepting new information.

[Abby Wambach]

Interesting. I wonder if that's interesting. Those people. And when I say those people, it could be me too. I have no idea. This group of people who are so into closure because we need black and white, they need the story, they need whatever to move on are also the people that tend to self sabotage. Here's the connection between these two. Self sabotage means I might want something, I might hope for something, I might work for something. But there's this moment or long eternity of uncertainty. Will I get it or not? Will I? I might want that relationship. I'm in it. It might happen, it might happen. I might get that job, I might have this friendship, but I sabotage it. We get questions about this all the time. Like I do a thing to end it, Whether it's a conscious thing, a subconscious, I do something to end it. Why? Why? Why do we self sabotage? Because we so hate ambiguity. We so hate not knowing what might happen that we will ensure we don't get what we want, just to have a black and white end. We would rather tolerate the no then tolerate. I don't know. So that's forced closure to this longing, to this hope. I would rather just say fuck it. No. I don't have to even long for it anymore than to sit in the uncertainty of unknowing whether I will get that thing or not. It's a way of taking control. I'd rather just not get it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Or I'd rather be the one that is ensuring I don't get it rather than waiting around for someone else to do that to me. Like, I'm going to sabotage this and end this before you end this. Because then at least I can have been the one to do it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, it's another form of closure, right? It's. I force this closure because the giving away power to anyone else or to the not knowing or to the ambiguity of life is more painful than. I just think that's interesting about people, that we would rather suffer with a no than suffer in a maybe.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it is. It's interesting because just the whole idea of living, the whole idea of needing things to be meaningful, the need to make meaning out of things, the need to take any situation and extrapolate a meaning or a sequence of events or a beginning, a middle, and an end. This is how our relationship started. Here's how it was in the middle. I need to know how it end. I need to know how I'm going to tell myself and how I'm going to tell the rest of the world how this relationship ended. I mean, I remember that was my biggest horrible thing in my marriage is that one day it was like, this is over. We had two five minute discussions about it. Then I discovered all of this other information and I didn't know what my story was. I didn't know, like, did this happen before? Is this the reason my marriage is over? Did this happen after? Is this what I needed? What do I tell myself about what happened here?

[Glennon Doyle]

That's interesting?

[Amanda Doyle]

What do I tell other people about what happened here? I need to make sure, is this guy a bad guy? Is this guy a good guy? Was this a very complicated situation? And it's really, really the most uncomfortable thing is living in that ambiguity.

[Glennon Doyle]

Mm.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I think it's really merciful to ourselves to not berate ourselves for the need for that to be like, this is the human condition. Of course you want clarity. Of course it would be so much more comfortable and make this already excruciatingly impossible situation just a Little tiny bit easier to have your definitive answer. And if you want that, and that's gonna help you survive, great. Latch onto your definitive answer. And also just know that you are necessarily cutting out other information, that you are sacrificing the fullness of the information in order to accept your one definitive answer. And including information about you, including information. I had to go back and look at myself and be like, actually, when I decide he's a cheating bad guy, and if that's the only information I allow in, I am not allowing in the information that shows me about me, who chose this person, that shows me about me that related to this relationship in this way for so long to also get us here. And, like, that's at my detriment that I don't look at that information. And that's really scary. And then they do these studies and they find out that, like, the people who have the low need, not the lowest, not the people who avoid closure because they're the people, like you said Glennon, where they keep reaching out because they can't handle an answer at all. They need it to keep going.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

The people who are like, I can live with this ambiguity, are the more creative people. They let in all the information. They're actually more creative. They allow things in. They create things with it. They imagine all the possibilities. It's really kind of cool when you.

[Abby Wambach]

Think of it that way.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like you're being a fundamentalist. You're being like a Christian fundamentalist about your relationship when you decide this is what happened and that's the end of the story. It's like, there's never. That's the end of the story.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think where the rub is, is when we get into relationship with people who have a different definition or a different need in the way that they view closure. So I've been in relationships before where somebody did not care to create a moment of closure. And I kept trying to figure it out. And so, like, that was, like, so crazy making for me. And then eventually I had to be the one that gave myself the closure.

[Amanda Doyle]

Totally. I've never had a moment of even coming within a mile of closure that involved anyone else.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's good.

[Abby Wambach]

No, that's so right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because you're faking. If you're trying to get as much information as you can to come up with an answer, you're basing your closure on what? This person, who, by definition, you're no longer in relationship with, they're giving you the information that you're basing your closure.

[Glennon Doyle]

On that's not closure.

[Abby Wambach]

I think we three probably agree that one thing we know is that closure, if it is real, is something that you give yourself.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

It is not something you get from an institution or another person or in any. That's not, that's not how it works.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

And maybe there's just when it comes to loss, it's like divinity. It's like there's a way to approach it which is fundamentalist and that has to do with control and narrative and protection. And it's like being in a little tiny box. And then there's another way to approach it which is more on the side of mysticism, which has a lot to do with awe and wonder. And I don't know. And you know, maybe you could hack the system. Maybe there's a way of giving yourself a story so that you have the thing that you know, but the story is not. Well, he's a dick and I was good and I tried or whatever it is. It's not detailed. It's like people make interesting decisions and relationships don't always last forever. And in the fullness of time, you'll see this a million different ways. And like, maybe that's enough of a story for your little brain, our brains, to go, okay, that's something. But it's mystical and wide enough to allow yourself to look back on the situation a million different times and see it a million different ways and have it inform your future relationships in a way that doesn't cast people in stone as right, wrong, good, bad, all of that.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Hold for business ask nine experts and you'll get 10 different answers. Bull market or bear market? Rising or falling rates? Inflation up or down? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until that happens, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed themselves with NetSuite, the number one Cloud ERP. With this unified business management suite, you gain a single source of truth that provides the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. Imagine having real time insights and forecasting at your fingertips, allowing you to peer into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can focus more on what's next instead of looking backward. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com hardthings the guide is free to you at netsuite.com hard things netsuite.com hard things. You know, one of my favorite holiday trips was when I stayed at an Airbnb instead of a usual hotel. I have stayed in millions of hotels, and so when I was heading to visit my family, I wanted something that felt more personal. The Airbnb I found. Oh my God, it was perfect. It was so cute. It had an entire cozy house for myself, my family, complete with a kitchen where I could cook breakfast. And also it had multiple rooms. And the best part is the space. No cramped rooms or noisy hallways. It's quiet, private, and exactly what I needed. Plus was in a great neighborhood close to all the local holiday spots. Airbnb has options that hotels simply don't for the holidays. I know if you're traveling with family or a group of friends this holiday season, those extra rooms and that kitchen make all the difference. And if you're going for a solo trip, you can find a place that feels just like home no matter where you are. Next time you're planning a getaway, try Airbnb. Trust me, it is an experience you won't regret. I feel like the best definition of closure I can come up with in this moment is like, oh, I can move beyond this. I can move forward with my life. It's accepting what is. And it doesn't mean that this thought or feeling or whatever is something that you will never experience or be able to think about or feel again. It just means it will no longer control your life in a way.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Marlena talks about the hole in her heart. Like, why, if I have closure, do I still have the hole in my heart? And I don't think that closure is filling the hole in the heart. It's not fixing the hole in the heart. It's carrying on with a holy heart. It's knowing that that hole in your heart is not an accident. It's not a mistake. It's part of you becoming realer and more beautiful and softer and wider and truer. That it's all completely okay. That the best people are just like Swiss cheese hearts.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. You know, accepting that you have a.

[Amanda Doyle]

Swiss cheese heart and.

[Abby Wambach]

And the openness that comes with that. A Swiss cheese heart is an open heart. Right. It's like an openness to the next thing. It's not allowing that hole in your heart to shut you down to the next beautiful thing. Right. It's just.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly. There's no moving beyond anything.

[Abby Wambach]

No.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like, there's no moving beyond a death. There's no moving beyond a relationship of significance. There's no moving beyond. It's just. You're moving with that.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

You are moving with it with this.

[Amanda Doyle]

Nevertheless, she persisted. Like, you have the thing and you are going on and it is with you forever. I just am suspect of anyone who's like, I have closure. I'm finished with that. That relationship's in the past. Like, or maybe it's just me. I feel like every relationship I ever had is present in my current relationship.

[Abby Wambach]

Me too. And I really believe this. I think I texted this to a friend recently. It seemed like an epiphany to me at the time. I am quite certain that I have never in my entire life gotten over anything. I'm serious. I mean that deeply. I am still looking back at things from memories from childhood. Things that happened when I was 10, 13, things that was set. I'm seeing it like it's a kaleidoscope, all these different ways. It still hurts. Things that I remember from 30 years ago still hurt. I get mad about people that I think about something they said to me when I was 17. I don't think that's a problem. I don't know how we would get over anything. What does that mean? Like, forget about it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Harden to it.

[Abby Wambach]

Harden.

[Amanda Doyle]

Does that mean hard into it?

[Abby Wambach]

Like, it's all packaged up in a little case that's glass and you can't get to it. Like, I am everything that has ever happened to me, and I'm trying to arrange it, use it, see it all in a way that makes my next moment more beautiful. But I do not believe that I. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying if getting over things is a thing, I have never done it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Are you still in resentment then of some of the things that have happened sometimes.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, but I think it's resentment is a place that I touch, feel, notice, is a signal to me that maybe I've got some self care stuff to do. Yes, but I understand what resentment is, that it's not something for me that I can sit in for too long without examining.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's kind of like you can forgive someone or something, but you'll never forget.

[Amanda Doyle]

I forget what conversation it was recently where we were talking about grieving and it's almost like we need a much wider definition for grieving. Oh, I remember what it was. It was the question that the woman called in and said that her mom never let her get a big head and so is always like cutting her down. And so now when she hears women being praised and pumped up, she has like a deep discomfort and she wants to take them down a notch. And then she feels like shit about it because she doesn't want to be that person. And we were talking about how instead of beating herself up for being that, maybe she could acknowledge that that is a place of grief for her, that she has to grieve that she never got those things. And I'm just wondering if the idea of closure is like the inability to be in a perpetual state of grief. Like to be joyful about all the things that are to be joyful about and to be grieving all the things there are to be grieving about. Like you saying you've never gotten over anything. Anytime you think of one of those things, it's like a little bit of grief of my little baby self had to deal with that, or my teenage self had to go through that, or when you think about your brother, there's no closure there. Every time you touch that or think about that, it's grief. Every time you think about a relationship that was both really bad and really awesome, you're carrying that grief with you always. It's just, I don't know, we just think of it as a really time limited thing and I'm not sure that it is. I think that maybe all of life is just a trying to be living and trying to be grieving.

[Abby Wambach]

Relationships and loss are a mystery. They are a mystery. You can try to make them a science. You can try to become a forensic reporter or whatever about a relationship or loss or death or whatever. But good luck, because all we know about them is that no one knows about them.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's part of what we're grieving. Yeah, it's a fucking mystery. We're never going to figure it out.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, people do this. Oh, my God. Like, I want to be in relationship with the divine. I want spirituality to be part of my life. So I'm going to write down these 10 things that are sure about God. Like, no, you have, by definition, entered a place of mystery, and you're trying to reduce it to a story or a dogma. And so maybe that's the same, like, people and our relationships are as beautiful and mysterious and wild as divinity. And so maybe the people who do best are the ones who give their whole hearts and stay open and hold it all very lightly and not try to be forensic experts about something that is in itself a wild mystery. And that, my friends, is what they call closure.

[Amanda Doyle]

CLO ho closing our conversation about closure. Shall we listen to Rebecca?

[Abby Wambach]

Only some of the pod squatters are going to know what I just did there. But for those of you who know.

[Marlena]

You know, hello, lovelies. My name is Rebecca. I am 30 years old, and I am calling because I was wondering how Glennon and Abby navigated the moving conversation. Amanda, I'm not sure if you've made, like, a big move with your husband. If you have, I would love your input. If you haven't, you'll always love your input. But my family's from the west coast, his family's from the east coast, and we've been doing our best to go back and forth, but we're thinking of having children and settling down, and I just don't know how we settle where we go. And he's right to want to be near his family. I'm right to want to be near mine. So I was hoping you could say some more things about that. And I love you guys.

[Abby Wambach]

I love this question. It's so interesting. We've never talked about this about, like, we have opposite vibes in terms of, like, I live a life of a nomad in that I have moved every few years. I see that from different perspectives. One of them is that I was always looking. My 12 step friends will understand that sometimes people like me who have an internal discomfort or restlessness seek a geographical solution. That's what we call it. That the problem is not me. It's just like a different climate. Constantly. It's just a different vibe. It's the city, it's this house, it's this town. You just are constantly thinking that maybe things will be better. If there was a new town, it was. So there's a negative way to look at it.

[Glennon Doyle]

There's a positive way of looking at that, too.

[Abby Wambach]

Me Too. I love. I think that my kids have feelings, perhaps, about having moved too much. I have a lot of guilt and shame about that.

[Glennon Doyle]

They do.

[Abby Wambach]

I think it's hard to be raised by a person who's trying to find themselves, but maybe. Maybe harder to be raised by a person who's not trying to find themselves, so.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm okay. I'm okay with it. I really am.

[Glennon Doyle]

There's. There's pros and cons to both, I'm sure.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. I can tell you about. I'll just give my take on a move. I want to hear you, sister. Because I have so much awe and respect for people who stay in the same place forever and, like, grow roots and are, like, pillars of their community. Like, I. It terrifies me so much. Like, if I moved, most of my community would say, wait, she lived here? Okay, so that's the vibe that I have gone for. But I do feel that it matters to me. Like, my environment I am in matters so much to my mental health and the way that I feel each day. I've never felt more alive or comfortable or in my zone of comfort than I do living in California. And I don't know, like, when I go back to the East Coast, I feel. I think there's a lot tied to it. Like, I feel like I'm going back to my childhood. I feel like I'm going back to. It's very loaded. But it does matter to me. I do know that it's not just a geographical solution. Like, it matters to me where I am, and I think I'm in the right. The move for us was the right thing for all of us.

[Glennon Doyle]

Can I ask you a question?

[Abby Wambach]

You may.

[Glennon Doyle]

Does it feel to you like all of the moves that you made were specific to what healing you were trying to go through during that time? So when you go back to certain places, does it feel like you're moving backwards in time? Yes, I get that.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep. I mean, you know, my thing is, like, every day we live close enough to the ocean, the Pacific Ocean, to see it. And every day I look at the coast and I think the thought, well, I've gone as far as I can go, and I don't know what that means. I just know that I like to live on the edge of things. I like to have gone as far as I can go. I don't like the feeling of being trapped in any way, which being landlocked makes me feel trapped. When Abby lived in Portland, Portland is, like, the coolest city, but she was having depression I said to her, no, no. People like us can't live in Portland. Like, we're Portland on the inside. So we need the opposite of that on the outside. It's balanced to me. You know, it's like I actually need to be reminded. I don't need to be reminded every day that things can be dark and sad and heavy and rainy. Got it. I've already figured that out before I get out of bed. Like, right, I have that nailed. What I need to remember every day is people moving and sun and dogs outside and kids running around and a lightness that I can plug into and that balances me out.

[Grinch]

Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville who done it. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out. Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

[Glennon Doyle]

The holidays are almost here. Between traveling, hosting family, and finding the perfect gift, it's such an exciting, busy, and, yes, sometimes stressful time. Luckily, I've teamed up with Ring, and it helped me stay connected to home for all the merry moments. Even when I'm on the go with Ring, you've got your whole home covered. Their video doorbells alert me when gifts arrive, and I can even chat with delivery people to let them know where to leave the package. Ugh, it's the best. The indoor cam. Well, it's a game changer. So easy to set up. I use it to check in on my pets while I'm away. We love to watch Honey and Hattie, and with two way talk, I can even talk to them. Hi honey. Hi Hattie. And when I want privacy, I just flip the manual cover to turn off the camera and mic. Wherever the holidays take you, Ring make sure you're always home for the holidays. So head to Ring.com to find the latest deals on Ring video, doorbells, cams and alarm kits. Ring makes the perfect gift for everyone on your list. It's the best. Go get it, folks. Sister, can I ask you a question about when you knew you were going to, like, lay down some roots? Did you always know that you would live in, like, the Northern Virginia, D.C. area?

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, I think I either thought I was going to do that or I was going to live abroad and have a totally different life. One of the other. I wouldn't have wanted to live in the exact town we grew up in. It's interesting that you say, like, you admire people who stay in the same place because I've always thought that maybe I was missing something, that I don't think that I could just move my family to another place. Like, it feels like you have to have a kind of audacity and sense of self and identity to be like, oh, we're just by ourselves. Just our little peopledom unattached to anything else are, like, sturdy enough to just up and replant somewhere else. Yes, I can see how it would be an escape thing of running around and avoiding getting too attached anywhere. But there's also a very cool kind of strength in it too. To be like, I am here and then I'm going to go somewhere else and I'm still going to be who I am. As opposed to, I me am defined by who I am and where I am and all the people around me and all the things that I've built for the last however long, like, that you trust that you'll go to another place and all that will still be there. So I don't know if it's actually like a very mature way of being, like, I actually, who I am is very interdependent and is all of these things and it's a fiction to believe who you are is just your little person and wherever you go that goes with you. Or it's a kind of very shallow sense of self, of I need all of this around me to define who I am.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I think that it makes sense though, right? Because I don't think either of them are good or bad or right or wrong. They're just like different ways of looking at things. And there's benefits of both. I do feel like I've always been more like, adamantly. I have to figure things out. I have to start a new Thing. I want to start a new thing. Break with tradition, break with a lot of things, like break with generational stuff, break with patterns. I want to create a new thing for my little family, and that is what has happened. And there are sacrifices of that, which is like tradition and generational ties and all of that. And there are benefits, which is being a catalyst of a vibe, of a creation that is just intentional and is not informed by tradition and is a.

[Amanda Doyle]

Begin again, begin again, begin again, begin again kind of a way of doing life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, what about Rebecca, who's beginning again, beginning again? Considering with her, she's trying to actually decide, does she go with west coast, her people, east coast, his people, if they're settling down?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I don't see a couple of ideas, which is neither, like, what about starting in a brand new place and being halfway between? I also. My inner eyebrow raises every time someone assumes that the closer they are to their family, the better family relationship is.

[Amanda Doyle]

Going to be or the easier it'll be on them.

[Abby Wambach]

All I'm saying is I don't see that playing out as often as one would think. I sometimes see that the people who have the best relationships with their extended families are people who have their own thing going and dip in and out. Okay, I've seen it done beautifully always. But I think sometimes having your own thing, totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

I just want to kind of add on to that because I think it's important for Rebecca to really figure out if, in fact she wants to move back to her family and if in fact, her husband truly wants to move back to their family. Because is it just for nostalgic reasons or is it to be closer to the family? Because this is what you think you were taught that you need to do. Like, well, of course I'll just always end up close to my family. In my mind, there is always another way that you can accomplish some of these things. Right? It might mean more travel, it might mean more bravery in some ways to, like, go start your life anew somewhere. Where do you want to live? Is my question.

[Amanda Doyle]

Where do you want to live? And if you're going for help, I heard an implicit idea of helping because we are going to start a family. I don't know how to settle where we go. To me, that's like, okay, do you think that you're gonna get help where you're going? In which case I think you make a real tactical spreadsheet. Like, how warm does it feel to be in this place? Your honest answer, does it feel happy? Does it feel Warm. Do you wanna be there? Do you wanna live there? Who do you think's helping you? Seriously, who's helping you? Because I'll tell you one thing, the people who say I'm going to help you so much, they're not talking every Wednesday. You need to actually delineate. If you think Nana's helping you, you might want to confirm that assumption. You might want to figure out, is it going to be once a month? Because in which case maybe you're not moving there for once a month. Help. Are we talking every Wednesday help? That's a factor. That's a real factor. But, like, really get tactical about it, because the idea of family versus the reality of family. You might be talking about you're getting help once a month, but you're expected to be at dinner once a week.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Do you want dinner once a week?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And like, here's what I wonder about other people. Because I think the truth of it for me is that I realized when I was going to have my own little family of humans that I had to be a grownup. I understood that I have to to be now a grownup. What I notice about myself when I'm around my family of origin is that I change a little bit. I have, like, sort of these regressive things. I become my mother's daughter, my father's daughter. I act, my kids notice it. I'm talking at my healthiest, okay. Like, it's not without work. I'm just being honest and saying that there's something that shifts inside of me where I lose some of my agency, my clarity, my leadership. I am no longer Glennon the human, the mother, the leader, the wife. I am something else. And I think that's what I notice. I want to be a mother. I don't want to be a daughter.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's the difference. Most people feel safety and feeling like somebody else has got me.

[Abby Wambach]

So do other people feel they don't feel that regression?

[Glennon Doyle]

No. I mean, some people might feel that feeling, but it doesn't insult their soul.

[Amanda Doyle]

It might be more comfortable for them to be a daughter than living in the discomfort of a new role of being a mother?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you feel a regression? Do you know? Does that, what I'm saying, make any sense?

[Amanda Doyle]

It does make a lot of sense. I think in isolated situations, I do feel like I am a little different in those relationships than I am in the rest of my life. I don't feel like my role or the way I mother is operating at a deficit or operating Differently because of proximity. But I think in certain situations I'm like, hmm, that's so funny that that's the way I am in this situation.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Like, I remember, you know, raising young little ones and being close to family and having a double consciousness of, like, I'm worried about your little tantrum. But I'm also thinking about how my parents are perceiving this tantrum and I'm bringing their values into the situation and I'm caretaking their feelings and I'm also.

[Amanda Doyle]

Protecting my kid from them instead of just being the thing that.

[Abby Wambach]

Or not more often, more often I was not. I was going back to prioritizing their comfort over what I knew was right in this moment or placating or. It makes me understand very much. And this is very individualistic and probably Western, but you know, all the rituals of, like, when you're a grownup, you have to get, like, banished from the tribe. And it's not a punishment. It's necessary because you are a pioneer of your life and your family and you do regress. I did not want to raise my parents grandchild.

[Amanda Doyle]

Ah, say that again.

[Abby Wambach]

I did not want to raise my parents grandchild. I wanted to raise my baby and a human being with my best guess at what freedom and nurture and all of it looked like. And there's this thing that happens when I'm around my family where their values creep in and I turn backwards towards their values as opposed to forward towards the little thing that we've created together. And I must avoid that even if it means missing out on some things. Even if it means if there's a price to pay for it. I know myself and myself as a mother and a human being, and I needed that freedom in order to create something new.

[Glennon Doyle]

Damn it. That's really fucking good.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. So it isn't a neutral thing.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like on the spreadsheet. It needs to be acknowledged that when you move close to family, your family or their family or both, you are not going from blank to. Plus Wednesday help. You're not going from blank to. But they'll be able to be raised with their cousins. You are going to all of those good things. And also you're going to have to really steer through a lot of these very complicated dynamics with eyes wide open. You're going to have to make sure you and your partner are very clear about what is okay on either side of the family that you want to integrate in your own. And what is not okay with both of you about either side of the family. And that you are going to have a united front against and keep out. Because if not goodbye. Say goodbye to your relationship.

[Abby Wambach]

Bye.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because that is done metaphorically.

[Abby Wambach]

If I and my partner were deciding between whether we should live near her parents in California or my parents in Virginia, I would suggest Alaska. Like metaphorically. Or Arkansas. I don't know. Just something one of the Dakotas looks good. A Dakota? What's wrong with the Dakota?

[Glennon Doyle]

Wyoming? Yeah, just something into Wyoming or Montana. Lots of land.

[Abby Wambach]

If you are the type that wants to not recreate, but create because some kind of help is the kind of help that we all can live without, as Marlo Thomas told us. Okay, good luck, squad. We love you so much. Is there anything that you two would like to leave us with so that we can give these people some closure? Okay, that's it. That's all we've got today. And that is damn good enough. Pod Squad, we love you. We will see you back here next time. Bye Bye.

[Glennon Doyle]

Bye.

[Abby Wambach]

If. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify Audio, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dena Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.