The One Way to Get the Truth from Someone (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Title: We Can Do Hard Things
Host/Authors: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle
Episode: The One Way to Get the Truth from Someone (Best Of)
Release Date: July 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this compelling episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle delve deep into the intricate dynamics of lying and truth-telling in personal relationships. Building upon the discussions from their previous episode (#242), the trio explores various lying styles, the motivations behind them, and strategies to foster genuine honesty in interactions.

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1. Understanding Lying and Truth

Abby Wambach kickstarts the conversation by reflecting on their last episode focused on lying and truth, emphasizing the prevalence of dishonesty in everyday interactions. She introduces the idea that everyone has a unique "lying style," which shapes how they communicate and connect with others.

Notable Quote:

"We're talking on We Can Do Hard Things about lying and truth and what the hell is lying? And why are we all liars?"
[02:10] Abby Wambach

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2. Identifying Personal Lying Styles

The hosts categorize their lying tendencies, providing personal insights into how these behaviors manifest in their lives.

• Abby as the "Bullshitter":
  Abby describes herself as someone who "makes up" stories, often to appear more honest or entertaining. This style involves creating narratives that enhance social interactions without malicious intent.

  Notable Quote:

  "It's reckless. It's beautiful. Beautiful. Your bullshitting ways can be very, very beautiful and helpful also."
  [04:19] Abby Wambach

• Glennon as the "Puppeteer" or "Mastermind":
  Glennon refers to her lying style as being a "puppeteer," where she meticulously crafts and filters the truth to present it in the most favorable light. This approach is driven by a desire to manage perceptions and maintain harmony.

  Notable Quote:

  "I'm constantly wanting to present information in a way that makes everyone feel a certain way."
  [07:07] Glennon Doyle

• Amanda's Style – The "Mastermind PR Person":
  Amanda discusses her tendency to intellectually process and strategize her responses, often masking her true feelings to maintain control over interactions.

  Notable Quote:

  "When people are like, oh, how did the kids do at the play date? They actually don't want to know half the time, right. That they were fighting the whole time and their daughter was a brat..."
  [30:28] Amanda Doyle

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3. Motivations Behind Lying Styles

The conversation delves into the reasons why each host adopts their respective lying styles:

• Desire for Approval and Control:
  Glennon explains that her "puppeteer" style stems from a need to be perceived positively, especially in her roles as a parent and spouse. This leads her to filter truths to avoid judgment and maintain a certain image.

  Notable Quote:

  "I think that it is a transferring this idea that someone's gonna pat me on the head and say, good job. You did it right?"
  [18:27] Abby Wambach

• Fear of Vulnerability:
  Amanda expresses that her avoidance of immediate emotional expression is rooted in a fear of being vulnerable and a reluctance to burden others with her feelings.

  Notable Quote:

  "I have a huge fear of being a burden or not handling my shit, taking up too much space in the sense of like, I only go to others if I can't handle it in all aspects."
  [31:00] Amanda Doyle

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4. Strategies to Encourage Truth-Telling

The hosts discuss effective methods to foster honesty in relationships:

• Direct Requests for Truth:
  Amanda highlights that asking someone explicitly to commit to telling the truth can significantly reduce the likelihood of deceit.

  Notable Quote:

  "If you ask people directly to tell you the truth, and you're asking them to commit to that, it decreases lies by 40%."
  [36:12] Amanda Doyle

• Creating a Safe Space for Honesty:
  Abby shares a personal story where demanding the truth in a therapeutic setting led to the revelation of infidelity, underscoring the importance of creating an environment where honesty is encouraged and valued.

  Notable Quote:

  "I told her, 'I'm gonna go to the bathroom and I'm gonna come back. And you are going to tell me every bit of the truth.'"
  [38:16] Abby Wambach

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5. Listener Submissions: Green and Red Lies

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to reading and analyzing listener-submitted stories of lies, categorizing them as "green" (harmless or white lies) or "red" (harmful or deceitful lies).

• Example of a Green Lie:
  Glennon shares a story where she told her son that his soccer game was canceled due to snow, despite knowing it wasn't, to avoid overwhelming him.

  Notable Quote:

  "Sometimes I adhere to this fully. Big green light."
  [47:30] Glennon Doyle

• Example of a Red Lie:
  An anonymous listener describes falsely claiming to be married at work, escalating to wearing a fake wedding ring to maintain the lie, showcasing the complications that arise from deceit.

  Notable Quote:

  "That's so good. That was posted by Anonymous."
  [48:13] Glennon Doyle

The trio provides thoughtful commentary on each submission, highlighting the motivations and consequences behind each lie.

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6. Final Thoughts and Encouragement for Honesty

As the episode concludes, the hosts emphasize the significance of cultivating honest relationships. They encourage listeners to identify trustworthy individuals with whom they can commit to complete honesty, thereby enhancing the authenticity and depth of their connections.

Abby's Advice:

"Think about one person that you can have a totally honest relationship with in which you trust them enough to have accountability to them and from them to the truth."
[54:07] Amanda Doyle

Glennon's Suggestion:

"If you can't do that, just get a diary. I know that sounds silly, but I feel like a diary is people's way of having an honest relationship with someone, like, totally themselves."
[56:08] Glennon Doyle

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a profound exploration of the complexities surrounding honesty and deceit in our daily lives. By sharing personal experiences and listener stories, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda provide valuable insights into understanding and improving our truth-telling practices. The discussion not only highlights the challenges of maintaining honesty but also offers practical strategies to build more authentic and fulfilling relationships.

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Listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Audacy, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Welcome back to we can do hard things if you have not. Go back.

[Amanda Doyle]

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, everyone's pants are on fire. Go back and listen to episode number 242 where we're talking about lying and truth and what the hell is lying? And why are we all liars? Um, and we're talking to you about what our particular lying style is in hopes that you might figure out what your particular lying style is so that you can have more compassion for yourself. Yeah. And understand yourself.

[Amanda Doyle]

And we're gonna end it with hot take about the only way that they've identified for how to prevent people from lying to you. Oh, wait for it. It's a good one.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, I don't know that thing. And also, I'm thinking, why would you want that thing?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, this is why you have to use it carefully.

[Abby Wambach]

Why would you want no one to lie to you. That feels so scary to me.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, no, no. Not no one to lie to you if there's a particular person and context where you don't want someone to lie to you about something.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, Great. Okay. Ooh, that's so exciting. Okay, we. In the last episode, Abby identified her lying language as bullshitter. Bullshitter. Like just someone who makes up briefly. How would you describe it, babe?

[Glennon Doyle]

In my need to want to seem smarter than I am, to know more than I do, everything that comes out of my mouth sometimes is not fact driven.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's puffery. And that makes total sense that you came from the soccer world. If people had to be like, you think you're gonna win this game? Of course you had to be like, hell, yeah, we're gonna win this game. We're gonna.

[Abby Wambach]

We're amazing.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I feel fully confident, even though you're like, we're likely gonna lose this match.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, yeah. That never. We never really thought we were gonna lose any match, first of all. Second of all, there are some times in my family's life that my belief without fact is really good. I do know that.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. She believes with no evidence. It's reckless. It's beautiful. Beautiful. Your bullshitting ways can be very, very beautiful and helpful also. What a good sentence.

[Amanda Doyle]

Her next book, the Beautiful Bullshitter.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And what I would say about bullshitters is, you know, I've had a few experiences where Abby's been out of town and someone's visited me in my home. And what I want you to know is that it's the worst thing that could ever happen. We just sit there. No one talks. No one says anything. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. There's so many beautiful things about the bullshitters, but one is that they're entertaining and they bring everyone together and shoot the shit. Shoot the shit. Whatever shooting the shit is, it's helpful. Okay. For other people to do. So. I'm going to need some help figuring this out. I'm going to do my best. Description of what Abby and I have figured out, my lying languages. I'm calling it a puppeteer. What my kind of lying is, is constantly believing that there is a way to present a fact or information that is the right way that will make everyone who's listening to it feel a certain way, that is the fact is released in the most favorable light to everyone that. That believes that there should be a filter on every sentence that comes out of every mouth that is considering the effect of the thing that they're saying on everyone.

[Glennon Doyle]

So beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

So. Well, that's sweet.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it is. It is so beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

And also exhausting for everyone.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, for you it's gotta be really.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm exhausted just listening to you say what you just said.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Okay. So we're trying to think of examples, which, by the way, is like every day, but we were thinking of one that you were involved with because that would be fun for you. So before your birthday, this is like a crossing of both of our lie languages, this one story, which is why we thought it would be fun to share. So we gave you a gold chain.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

A gold necklace.

[Abby Wambach]

We gave you a gold necklace.

[Amanda Doyle]

So beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And we. We were. Abby and I were in bed because that is of course, where most of our 8:04. Right, right. And you. The foot of our bed. We gave you the necklace. And you opened it and said, it's so beautiful. And then Abby said, I found it on the thing. I was looking through the thing. I ordered it. I. Whatever. I. I got that for you. I thought that you would like it. I. Whatever, whatever. Okay. And then. And then you said, abby, I love it. Thank you so much. And then you left. And then I was quiet. I was quiet at Abby.

[Amanda Doyle]

You were quiet in her direction.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, I was extremely quiet. Aggressively. And Abby always knows right away, like, you know, so she knew what happened, but she pretended like she didn't know what happened. So she was saying, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong?

[Amanda Doyle]

You're like, what's wrong? Please don't say, what's wrong? What's wrong? I really wanna know. I definitely don't wanna talk about this.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. So here is what I would say about it is true. It was true that Abby found that necklace. It is also true that we discussed what we were going to get. That I had three things on my list that day. That she had three things on her list that day. That order the necklace was on her list. That it is true that she ordered the necklace. It is also true that it is a deeper truth that in our marriage we energetically do things together.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like communal property.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Communal duties, communal gift.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. Like, for example, on Christmas morning, every time my kid opens a present and all the adults around, I'm not like, hey, kid, I ordered that. I sent it. I would have. Right? Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

So see in hell, Santa, I read all of this.

[Abby Wambach]

Right? So this is a crossing of our lie languages. Because Abby is important for everyone to know what she's done in that moment. It is important for me to control the narrative. I am always trying to control the narrative. So very recently, we're going to the mall. One of my kids has asked to get something. The other kid has asked to get something. Abby and I have agreed that it's more important that this other kid gets this thing, that trip. Abby will look at the first kid and say, we're not going to the mall for your shit. We're going for hers. I might die inside at that moment. That is true. I might say we are going to the mall for two different reasons that are equally important. I am constantly wanting to present information in a way that makes everyone feel a certain way. And so everything that everyone says feels like a minefield to me. I'm constantly going behind people, changing what they just said so this person hears it a certain way. Changing what you said, changing how you said it, why you said it when you said it. Why do we have to say that right now? Why isn't that a truth? We held back. Why didn't we wait till next month to say it? Why? It's like a God complex or something. It's a fear of letting things just be. It's the reason why if you relate to the Taylor Swift Mastermind song, it just. That made me feel so seen. It's like this idea that there's a way to control the truth that will.

[Amanda Doyle]

Take the edge off.

[Abby Wambach]

That'll take the edge off. That will make. I think sometimes it's selfish. It's like what will make me look the best. Yes, that is true that that's the reason why I did that. But it's also true that I did it for this other reason. So can we focus on this other reason?

[Amanda Doyle]

Because I see what you're saying now. I see what you're saying. Okay, so like truth, raw truth is not fit for human consumption. We need to take the truth and fit, filter it through the light most favorable. And on the other side, now it's a consumable. So this is why you feel the need to put your fingers on and touch and edit things that are happening. Because you can keep the truth but make it come out in a way that you feel like reflects you better or impacts others better.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And so what I think is interesting about that puppeteer way, I think a lot of that has to do with parenting for me. Like, I'm thinking about everyone. I'm thinking about everyone's. Feelings. But I am also always thinking about the way the kids are seeing me as their mom, as their parent. So I'm also filtering it for the way that it's gonna, you know, make me feel like a good mom or like a good ex wife or like a good new wife or like a good mom or a good writer or whatever. So what I think is interesting about this control freak in quotes, puppeteer kind of lying, which is like controlling and manipulating and filtering the truth, is that I think, whereas Abby's core fear is like, am I good enough? Mine is, am I good? Mine has always been like, if people saw the complete, full, unfiltered. Yeah, that would not be good.

[Amanda Doyle]

I understand what you're saying right now. So you're like the comms director of truth. You're like, I am going to present the truth, but it's too unruly just to have the truth out there. Like, we can't come or we're going to the mall for her, not you, because that is too subject to interpretation. That might reflect in a way that you haven't controlled. Whereas if you can take the truth and leave no room for interpretation as to how it is presented, then you can feel calm because you'll know the way everyone is receiving that. You can't just leave it up to everyone else to interpret what happens, because that is too scary.

[Abby Wambach]

Right? I'm just making it more beautiful. What is the truest, most beautiful version of this moment is my version. Right? So the pr, the comms, the truths, Communication, truths, Public relations. Yeah, that's it. But I do think in the bot at the bottom of that is trust. Am I always willing to let everything be and that it'll be okay? No. And am I good? Well, I don't know that. So I'm just gonna, like, shade everything up.

[Amanda Doyle]

I actually get that. That. That comms piece. I think I get that sometimes why it's so jarring to me. If John will just send a text, someone will say, like, can y' all come over? Can one of the kids go over? And he'll just be like, no, we can't. And I'm like, well, that was reckless as shit. Like, you have to give the context of how the. And I think it's this fear that, like, everyone's out there just waiting to decide that you're an asshole or something. But if we just trusted that people are gonna receive that information in a favorable way towards us. I don't. And I wouldn't be a more calm way to Live.

[Abby Wambach]

And I don't do it as much with other people. I would say I do it incessantly and exhaustingly with my family. Like sometimes when the kids leave and they're not here or one. The one goes back to college or whatever, I feel like I can breathe in a way that I don't sometimes when they're present because I'm constantly trying to make control everyone's perceptions of everything.

[Amanda Doyle]

So is. Do you think that that was like that pre divorce or do you think that this is like you feel. I'm wondering if it's. You feel so fearful at a deep level that they'll be like, you messed things up for the family by getting divorced, so you need to prove everything's good. Like, I'm surprised to hear you say that actually, because you seem so comfortable and at ease with your family. I didn't know that you were so worried about how they would interpret things.

[Abby Wambach]

I do worry. That's. Don't you think that that's true?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I mean I. I can't speak for before I came, but I've heard you tell stories and I also think it's kind of confusing because parenting is a really big art of manipulation. Like it's. You're thinking about so much of what everybody's experiencing. And I think that at the heart of it, it's so good because you want our children to all have a voice and to all think that they're. That they have been filtered before you say something or before you are doing something.

[Abby Wambach]

Maybe it's harder for people to understand who have young kids. Like, I think when your kids get older, it's like you start to see them seeing you. They go away, they meet other families, they have their own takes on things. And you start to see them in a way where they're seeing you for like the person you are. They're not seeing you as an all knowing God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

They're seeing you now as like a person who made decisions, who lived a certain way, who makes choices, who is like a certain way about money and faith and relationships and friendships. And so you're seeing yourself through their eyes for the first time. And part of the filter is trying to explain myself.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

Trying to like through every interaction explain myself. And it's being this age and looking at your parents and like you're stuck in the middle. I'm judging my parents, I'm looking backwards and judging them. And then I'm looking forwards and looking at my kids judging me. Or so I think it's just Very.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think that they're judging us?

[Abby Wambach]

I think that's their job. That's their job, is to, like, look at us and figure out what they want to keep and what they don't want to keep. And I feel like with every truth I'm trying to filter, I'm saying, like, I did a really good job. Like, I did the best I could. I'm the best version of a person I know how to be or I can be. And I made all these decisions for the. I feel like that's what I'm constantly doing. And I would like to.

[Amanda Doyle]

So you have to show your work. You're showing your work so that if they decide you got the answer wrong, they can at least go back and see, oh, this is how. These are all the steps that she and I see the justification. And I see. It's like when a teacher's like, show your work. Show your work. That's what you're doing constantly in your head is putting that in the world.

[Abby Wambach]

Making it does not feel relaxing.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I was just gonna say. You just said that you don't wanna do this anymore.

[Abby Wambach]

No, I don't. I think having a kid, college, really, it's not. It has nothing to do with the kid. Like, they're not doing anything. They're just, like, standing there. And I'm constantly trying to. I don't know what I'm trying to do, but I would like to just relax and be myself and let everything be. And not be constantly energetically justifying or explaining or filtering, not thinking I have to present some correct version of motherhood or parenting. I'm sure it's not relaxing to them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think that this is, like, your attempt of, especially as they get older, of creating an environment where they would want to come back to. Is this, like, biological, like this urge to build this stability of a fortress of a family that they want to be a part of. Cause they have to now opt into our family.

[Abby Wambach]

I think that what it is is, like, it's transferring this idea that someone's gonna pat me on the head and say, good job. You did it right? You did it well. It's like, okay, I don't do that with whatever God is anymore. So now I do it with the kids. Huh? Like, the kids are God. And they decide this could be totally wrong. I'm just thinking of it right now, but I do think I have transferred that locus of you get to decide whether I am worthy, am good or worthy from this idea of a God in the sky. To, like, the kids, their opinions.

[Glennon Doyle]

And they get to decide they'll justify.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Which is totally insane. But that is what I think. I mean, I'm not fucking suggesting this to anyone.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm not advocating for this approach.

[Abby Wambach]

No.

[Amanda Doyle]

And I'm just telling you what's happening. No.

[Abby Wambach]

And I did not expect to talk about that. But I do think in the particular ways of. Okay. When you give to someone else the power of approving of you or not, you will lie your ass off or filter your ass off or control your ass off to get approval from that person whether or not that person's asked you. And that can make a liar of you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow. I bet a lot of people listening will relate to what you just said.

[Abby Wambach]

Or they've turned it off. No, no.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't think it's confusing at all. I think that it makes perfect sense. And I also think, like, it's a super vulnerable thing to say out loud.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because, like, all of us want the approval of our kids. All of us want to feel like we're good at parenting, and all of us want to feel like this whole sacrifice that you've just made to raise three children was worth it. And what will it be that you feel like will have been like, oh, now I know that I've done it. I've done it. Right? What will it be? Yeah, it's nothing.

[Abby Wambach]

Damn good question.

[Glennon Doyle]

There's nothing.

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[Abby Wambach]

Okay, sister, have you thought about what your Lang style is? So we have Abby the bullshitter. We have me, the puppeteer or the truth PR person Mastermind. The mastermind.

[Amanda Doyle]

I call that the mastermind PR person. Because you're a truth spin doctor.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, that's good.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't have a word for mine yet.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

All I know is that my friend recently we had some drama going on and she was like, how am I gonna deal with this? Because I just show everything on my face. Like when I see this person, I'm not gonna be able to fake it and they're gonna know exactly what's going on. And I was like, wow. I am the opposite of that. It alarms me and scares me how much I am able to not show on my face exactly how I feel so that I feel like I don't know what kind of Lying, that is. But I kind of admire and I'm jealous of people who have the kind of integrity of their insides with their outsides, who, if they don't like someone, it shows on their face, or if they're offended or hurt or in conflict, that it shows on the outside as much on the inside. Because I could go a lifetime and not show it.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like the masked. The hiding.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. An actor kind of.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Maybe. I don't know that it made me feel like a real faker.

[Abby Wambach]

Baker.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's cool that you don't have that.

[Abby Wambach]

Can you give us an example?

[Amanda Doyle]

If I receive information about someone or something, I have a very intellectual approach to it. I'll be like, let me process that deceit, or let me process that betrayal, or let me process this new information that I know about you and make it make sense in my head. And then with that, let me know what I need to know about how our relationship needs to be in the future. But you don't necessarily need to know.

[Abby Wambach]

That.

[Amanda Doyle]

I need to know it. And what I put out to you, the access that I give you, the information that I give you about myself, might totally change. And you might never notice it. You might never notice that we're having a different relationship than we had before. But to me, I know it's a different relationship.

[Abby Wambach]

This is so interesting. So it must drive you crazy that I want to say how I feel all the time. This makes me think of when I'm mad at somebody in our work life. And you're like, yes, and we will handle that. But it may not be wise for you to share that you're angry with that person right now. That's what you're doing. You're.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

You're like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We'll get them in the end. Yeah. But. Okay, that's fascinating. This must. This reminds me of your threeness with the Enneagram. You're not feeling it. You're intellectualizing it and planning it, but you're not necessarily getting to the feeling phase or sharing. So is it about control?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because this is asinine to me. This whole way that people do they like. That's when I'm always like, shrewd like a fox. Shrewd like a fox.

[Abby Wambach]

I know you always say, shrewd like a fox, and I'm like, fuck.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because it's like, you know, T. Swift. Never be so kind. You forget to be clever. Never be so clever. You forget to be kind. Okay. So that person has betrayed Me, that person is untrustworthy. That per. I. I don't trust that person as far as I can throw him. Let me go share with them about that. Wait, what the fuck you just said? That person is not trustworthy, but you're going to go give your insides to that person for them to do whatever with? I actually don't follow the logic.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. So that feels adaptive to me. That's good. When you have decided someone is completely untrustworthy, you are of course not going to open yourself back up. You're going to find another way forward. When does that approach become maladaptive?

[Amanda Doyle]

When you try to work every relationship out inside of yourself?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Yes. Because what you're missing out on sometimes, like I would say for me, I get myself into situations where I shouldn't have said anything and it's disastrous. Yes, but what you miss sometimes is the moment where you say, wait, I'm that hurt my. It's not somebody who is evil. It's not somebody who is should be cut off for the rest of the life, but part of relationship and the reason for integrity is not you. I think you think that being in the moment or being integrated is stupid, but it's not always just stupid. It's because sometimes you say something and there's a magical moment where the other person actually is meeting you there and then your relationship becomes something bigger than the sum of its parts. Yeah, but you're keeping it the magic all the time in the sum of the parts because there's no mixing the oil and the water. It's like we are in relationship and that means I handle my business and you handle your business and I'll see you in hell.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, I. Sometimes it's not even the sum of the parts. Sometimes it's just me plus what I think about that person in my heart.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you have anybody that you're completely honest with, that you feel vulnerable, that you feel like you can do this thing and not figure it out?

[Amanda Doyle]

I have like a. I do. And I have people that I will never tell a lie to, ever. Little or big. I do, definitely. But I think I do try to over intellectualize and figure out what's going on and figure out if I have a right to feel the thing and figure out whether that's reasonable and figure out instead of just being like this is the way I feel.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is it a fear of vulnerability?

[Amanda Doyle]

What do we do about that?

[Glennon Doyle]

Is it like the base of it, like the bottom of it? It's like a fear of actually being vulnerable.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. What's the base? The core?

[Amanda Doyle]

I think it is. And then I think it's also like I have a huge fear of being a burden or not handling my shit, taking up too much space in the sense of like, I only go to others if I can't handle it in all aspects. Right. So make sure you've exhausted your internal resources before you go to anyone for like either help or support or working things out. And so by default, I think I handle a lot internally. And it's like that saying, if you only say what you know, you're only gonna know what you know. Like, I think that cuts me off from information. It cuts me off from different ways of seeing things. It cuts me off from, you know, what you're saying about the synergies of you come out with a different output when you add a different input in. But I have a general aversion when people can't handle their shit well.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also, yeah, I think that the world too is like, one of the big complaints about women is that we're too much and we're too emotional. And like any of those feminine tropes, especially around this, is probably even more aversive to you. You're like, fuck that. I'm going to prove that I can do it differently. I think that you're actually one of the most audaciously capable people I've ever met. And so that's gotta be a double edged sword there. Cause you're like, I can do a.

[Amanda Doyle]

Lot, but in the context of lying, it's like, I have all the information I need. I have come to my conclusion you're out. But I'm also not gonna let you in enough to know you're out.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, so it's a, it's a faking.

[Amanda Doyle]

I can fake it till the end of time.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Cause I guess a different way to be that if you were gonna do it honestly, would be you've broken my trust and I'm not gonna do this the same way.

[Amanda Doyle]

Totally.

[Abby Wambach]

So you don't do that.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that would actually be like full of integrity. And if we think back to Janelle's at the last lying episode we did, where Janelle was like, I lie to set a boundary. That's why I was like, no, no, no, no. There's no lying to set a boundary. You either lie to get an outcome you need or you set a boundary. But you don't lie to set a boundary.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I would have more respect for myself if I couldn't lie with my face. It's like Lovey used to say to you on stage, if you didn't like, whatever speaker was going on, and she'd say, fix your face, because you Glennon, show what you're thinking on your face.

[Abby Wambach]

I know.

[Amanda Doyle]

I do not. So I admire that in people whose whole being represents how they feel. So I think I would have more respect for myself if I. If I would be like, you know what? Love ya. You're awesome. And also, this is different now, and I can tell you why or not, but I just wanted to explain that this is where I am and Godspeed.

[Abby Wambach]

Cool.

[Amanda Doyle]

But I don't.

[Abby Wambach]

I get it. Nailed it. I don't know if it's good or bad. I'm just saying you identified a particular way of lying that I'm sure a lot of people will relate to.

[Glennon Doyle]

Fake it until you make it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, and I understand now. Like, I understand when you're, like, when I email you, and I'm like, I'm so upset about this thing. And you will be like, okay, let's not say that right now. I hear you, but let's not, like, email them. That makes sense to me.

[Amanda Doyle]

It feels like it's like passing ammo to your enemies. I've just determined you're an enemy. Can I arm you?

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. And also, but I do want to suggest that it is deep embedded into us, you and me, Sister, that the world is made up of very few friends, actually, who are all on this zoom, or our two producers who are friends, and then everyone else is an enemy. Okay? So even that framework is an interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

Nobody can be trusted from your perspective. You have to control even what people think about us because they cannot be trusted. And sister is worrying about arming anybody with anything that they can use against.

[Abby Wambach]

Her because everyone's trying to kill us. Okay, here's what we're going to do. Pod Squad, good luck figuring out what your lying style is. We want to know about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And here's what I want to challenge you two to do. We have some. I think they're not. Collins, we're reading these, right?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. And they're so funny, I can't call them. Okay, but first, I want to tell the people. I promise to tell them.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

So here. There's all of these things. Everyone thinks they can tell when someone's lying to them. First of all, polygraphs are not.

[Glennon Doyle]

Admissible in court. They're not admissible in court.

[Amanda Doyle]

They're not reliable. Humans can only tell if someone is lying. Half the time. So great. So just go ahead and guess because that's as good as what you think that you figured out all the things of like, oh, if they look up and to the left, that's telling their lying. No, that's also associated with thinking. So someone might be lying or they might be thinking. So stop. You can just let yourself off the hook for trying to guess if people are lying to you. The only way that they have determined that increases your chance of getting people to tell the truth. And it's so simple. It goes back to what we were talking about in the first episode is if you ask people directly to tell you the truth. And this goes back to my theory at the beginning that there is no social contract that people will be telling the truth. You actually have to say, I want the truth from you. So if you really need to know something, say, say to people this. I want you to say to me, I promise I will tell you the truth. And then they say, I promise I will tell you the truth. And then they say whatever they're going to say. Having this verbal commitment that they say, they have to repeat it back to you. There is something in our makeup that when I say, say with my mouth, I'm going to tell you the truth, it decreases lies by 40%. Some people are still gonna lie. But I think it goes back to what we were saying in the first episode, which is that nobody knows if you want the truth from them. Walking around all the time with all these socially acceptable, quote unquote lies. So you telling someone that you want the truth from them, and then you're asking them to commit to that. And a lot of people won't say that unless they're willing to tell you the truth. Or they might be like, okay, they want it, I will tell it to them. It's almost like you are creating your own social contract in that situation that doesn't exist outside of that.

[Abby Wambach]

So when you were talking about that, I wanted to be like, that can't be right. But actually I'm thinking about when Craig finally told me about the infidelity. And we were sitting in a therapist's office and we'd been through four to five freaking sessions of therapy with us not telling each other the truth. And then something came up and the air was charged. And I just understood and knew in the moment that there was something that neither the therapist nor he was telling me. And I actually did look at Craig and said, I'm gonna go to the bathroom and I'm gonna come back Here. And you are going to tell me every bit of the truth. And I. He didn't say it back to me, but it. That worked. That's when I got the whole truth. That's weird.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it works in any little thing. You know when people are like, oh, how did the kids do at the play date? They actually don't want to know half the time, right. That they were fighting the whole time and their daughter was a brat and their son spilled the stuff everywhere. They were cussing the whole time. They don't want to know that. They want to be like, what's great.

[Abby Wambach]

See you next time. Right?

[Amanda Doyle]

But if someone says no, I actually want to know the truth about this. So I'm working on something. So tell me the truth then. Great. Now I know you want to know the truth. I'll tell you.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Or like, if you call your friend, they're like, what are you doing? And you're like, I'm going to go get my bang. I'm going to go get bangs cut. And they're going to be like, okay. Or if you say, I'm going to go get bangs cut, I want you to tell me the truth about that. They're going to say, do not cut your bangs. Right? It is a different thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it is. It seems so simple, but it's very not simple.

[Abby Wambach]

On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this.

[Amanda Doyle]

So whether you're sharing the streaming password.

[Glennon Doyle]

In the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Unknown]

Member week is here at Lowe's. Don't miss your chance to get up to 40% off hundreds of items like paint, faucets, vanities, doors and more shop our exclusive deals happening in store and Online now through July 18th. Not a member. Join Myloes Pro Rewards for free today and get ready to save more Lowes. We help you save loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change.

[Glennon Doyle]

This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills. Like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future. Today with a risk free [e-mail] Spotify greenlight.com Spotify.

[Abby Wambach]

We'Re gonna read a bunch of lies that love bugs around the world have told. We are going to judge these lies, okay, Whether this is a green lie or a red lie because we're not going with white lies. You two are gonna decide whether these are green lies or red lies.

[Glennon Doyle]

All right?

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, let's go. Here we go. Lie number one. A girl I lived with two years ago thought I was stealing her yogurt out of the fridge. I told her it couldn't have been me since I'm allergic to dairy. And now I still can't eat dairy in front of her or anyone from that friend group. She made me a dairy fee free cake for my birthday and the guilt is eating me alive.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good.

[Abby Wambach]

I think you go straight to the grave with the dairy situation.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is a green lie for me. You just don't. You don't ever tell her.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, you can't tell her. It's gone.

[Abby Wambach]

I.

[Amanda Doyle]

That reminds me of the amazing thing where people are more likely to lie to prevent you from thinking that they are lying. That is one of the top lies that they find. So it's like you, Glennon, when you're checking out at the grocery and the lady says, what kind of avocados are those? And you tell her they're organic even though they're not organic. Because you're so afraid that if you tell her they're not organic, she's going to think you're lying to get them for cheaper. So you just tell them they're organic.

[Abby Wambach]

I do that all the time. I lie so people will will know that I'm honest.

[Amanda Doyle]

That is one of the most common lies. And that's what this girl, she was so afraid to look like a lying thief that she lied and said that she was lactose intolerant. So she couldn't have possibly been the lying thief that stole your yogurt.

[Abby Wambach]

And I love her for it.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

In college, I legally married and then peacefully divorced a platonic friend, so we qualified to live off campus.

[Abby Wambach]

I want to call this lie a justice based lie. I believe in this sort of lie. This. It is not right that marriage is the only kind of relationship deemed worthy enough to get special treatment. So I believe in this lie. I think we should have more rights for platonic relationships. Yes. To this lie.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was from Alex Harrow on Twitter.

[Amanda Doyle]

This one is from M. Lockwood Porter on Twitter. My best friend and I wanted to go to a Blink 182 concert in high school, but we couldn't afford tickets. So we told everyone in our extremely Baptist Oklahoma town that God called us to spread the gospel at an evil secular concert. But we needed donations to get in. We turned a profit. Yes, that is a first class. Brilliant. Good job, M. Lockwood Porter. Brilliant.

[Abby Wambach]

Well done. This one is from Ken. My daughter Bryony had a show and tell day at school which involved standing in front of the class and explaining all about their chosen subject. Unfortunately for me, she had told her pals that she was doing it about her father's expedition to the Galapagos Islands and begged me to do the presentation with her. So not only did I have the shame of having a lying fantasist for a child, but I also had to pretend to be a wildlife conservationist in front of 25 children. I actually work in it. I love this father. I love Bryony. She's probably going to be some sort of writer. That is a big green lie for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good.

[Abby Wambach]

Good job, dad.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I love that. So they went and planned together their presentation. So Ken's like, soon. Then I'll show him the pictures of the huge ass turtles or whatever. And Brian is like, yeah, that'll be good, that'll be good. Then we'll go to the next slide. Imagine the teacher's like, I know Ken works at Microsoft. It's weird that he went on a Galapagos expedition.

[Abby Wambach]

Amazing.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was told that every person gets 10000 words per month. If you reach the limit, you couldn't physically speak until a new month began. All my dad had to say was, well, careful, you're already at 9000 words. And it would shut me right up.

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good. I have no. I have no notes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good. I have no notes.

[Abby Wambach]

This one's brilliant. I tell my son that when he lies, a red dot appears on his forehead that only his parents can see. It only goes away when he tells the truth. Can we talk about the levels of parenting in this? So this parent, in order to teach their child not to lie, is blatantly lying. So good to them. That is some good stuff.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's really good. This one is Dominique Matty. One time, for my own entertainment, I pretended to not know what a donut was when my ex boyfriend's friend mentioned wanting one. Every time he tried to explain it, I Said. Oh, you mean a bagel.

[Abby Wambach]

Nope. We haven't even talked about lying. Just fun. Yes, Lying. Just for fun. I give a big green light, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

I like to do that.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, you mean a bagel. Imagine this person just losing their shit. So frustrated.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So good.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, go ahead, baby.

[Glennon Doyle]

I recently told my son his soccer game was canceled due to the snow. Oh, yeah, this is good. In all fairness, it was his third game of the weekend. I knew the team had plenty of subs, and it was flurrying. Oh, my son is only seven. Enough is enough. Sometimes I adhere to this fully.

[Abby Wambach]

Big green light.

[Glennon Doyle]

Big green light.

[Abby Wambach]

Soccer is never ending. And it's too much. And you really have to take it into your own hands.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

When they say soccer's life, they mean literally, that's your life now.

[Abby Wambach]

That's exactly. Football is life.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was Aaron R. Okay, at work.

[Abby Wambach]

For whatever reason, when I first started, I told a girl I was married. I was never married. It got so out of hand that I actually bought a fake wedding ring. The whole hospital thinks I'm a husband. I've had friends call in pretending they're my wife. It's so crazy out of hand now that I think I would be fired if the truth came out.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's so good. That was posted by Anonymous.

[Abby Wambach]

I know how that feels. That's like when I told the school that Madonna was my aunt. It can go on for a really long time. I still feel extra close to Madonna.

[Amanda Doyle]

My upstairs neighbor called me Mark in a conversation, but since that is not my name, I didn't realize she was actually referring to me, so I didn't correct her. The second time she called me Mark, it was from a distance. As she was leaving her apartment and I was getting in, I registered that she thought my name was Mark, but I felt it would be weird to shout back that my name is not Mark. The third time she did this, I had a bunch of friends over on the stoop outside the apartment, and I didn't want to correct her in front of a group of kids because I didn't want to embarrass her. All of my friends looked confused that she was calling me Mark, but after she went inside, I explained to them that I was too deep into it now to correct her. They disagreed since she had only done it three times at that point. That was seven years ago. I am Mark.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. Can we talk about lying? Because you're sweet. That's sweet. It's like so, so much of lying is just being sweet. You don't want to like, hurt the other, make the other person feel stupid so you just are. Like, I would prefer instead of hurting someone's feelings, to be Mark for the rest of my life.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, but then, see, Vanessa episodes. That's how you end up three years into a relationship, still pretending to get an orgasm at the same that didn't work three years ago because you're Mark now.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, trying to be sweet.

[Amanda Doyle]

You get yourself into a situation.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm not saying it's not a slippery slope. It is. My freshman year of college, I was walking around campus when a very friendly looking girl waved at me. I'm awkward, so of course I waved back. The next week, the same thing. This began the weirdest saga of my life. For the next two years, we greeted each other as old friends every time we came across the other. She knew my name. Somehow, I never could figure hers out. And it was way too late to ask. I just pretended I knew who she was and why she knew me. Finally, I joined the honors program and entered my classes for my thesis. Who should be in this class but mystery girl? I was horrified I wouldn't be able to pass it off anymore. First day of class, we are all sitting there chatting and she greets me by name again. I had finally learned her name from attendance. Thank God. Someone asks finally. Oh, so you two know each other. Where'd you meet? Silence. I stare at her, she stares at me. Finally, she breaks down wailing. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, we've just been waving at each other for two years and it was too late. She's standing in my wedding next spring as one of my bridesmaids and very best friends.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's awesome.

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good. That's By Miscellaneous on Reddit. This is a good one that everyone should use. You definitely tell your kids that when the ice cream truck music is on, it means that they're out of ice cream. That's just.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's a must.

[Abby Wambach]

An old nugget. Also, I can only imagine all the lies we could collect about the tooth fairy tales. Okay, I told my daughter the Tooth Fairy was delayed by Hurricane Sandy after forgetting her dollar several nights in a row. And since then, the tooth fairy has also been subject to storms, heavy cloud cover, and heat stroke. She is super flaky. It's just a bed of lies. What we tell them. I think I've mentioned when Chase finally asked me. Oh, also warning, turn this off. You're listening with kids. When I finally told Chase about Santa because he looked at me, sister. He looked at me and said, you need to tell me the truth right now. Yeah, he did. And I said, santa, the spirit of Santa is real. The giving, the love, the joy. But it's in me. It's in me and your debt. Okay? We are. It's real. But it's a different kind of real than you think it is, right? And he said, is that what it is with the tooth fairy too? And I said, yeah. And he thought for a few minutes, quietly, and then he goes, is that the thing about God too? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. What a tangled web we weave. I love this one because it just reminds me of my stupid lives. When I was little. My friend told me he got NSync's autograph and when he showed it to me, it was just the word in sync written on a post it note. I don't know why that makes me so happy. He faked it with just the word in sync. Dominic Kane on Twitter. Thanks for that, Dominic. Let's end with this love bug who has just, you know, really. There can be such joy in lying. Proven by Cazaville on TikTok Fun fact. They say you can just lie. You can just do it. I do it a lot and here are some of my favorite lies I've told recently. If someone is studying in a major and I know the name of a professor who teaches that, I'll just be like, oh my God, you're in that major. Do you know Professor Smith? He's my dad. One time I told someone that I've never paid for anything in cash in my life. I've never personally handled cash. I said, if you're trying to make plans with someone and they suggest a bar or something, it is so fun to say, oh no, I can't go there, I've been banned. And then just not elaborate. Bringing joy back to lying. Thank you. All right, loves, we hope that you will think of your lying style. What else do we hope for these love bugs?

[Amanda Doyle]

I hope that you will not add being a liar to the list of things that you have shame about, because then we should all just be carrying an equal amount of shame on behalf of the society that we live in, which requires us to lie on a daily basis and then makes us feel shame for doing so. So I say reject that and also try to think about one person that you can in your life have a totally honest relationship with in which you trust them enough to have accountability to them and from them to the truth, whatever that might be. Because the studies show that even in the relationships where we have the little lies or the big lies, they're actually less satisfying to us. It's that same thing of, like, if you're presenting only part of yourself and someone loves you, you don't actually feel their love because it's. You don't trust it because it's not the real you. So if you just can think of one person and you trust them enough to say, I've been thinking about it and I was thinking we could have a thing with us where we just are always honest with each other. Like, I can always handle the truth from you, and I would like to be always honest with you. How does that sound? I don't think we need many people like that, but I think if you just have one, it's a whole different way of living. And I don't think we can or should try it with a shit ton of people. But just think about that and maybe it's a level of adventure in life that you haven't had yet. When you can be in a relationship like that.

[Abby Wambach]

I love that.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good.

[Abby Wambach]

And if you can't do that, just get a diary. I know that sounds silly, but I feel like a diary is people's way of having an honest relationship with someone, like, totally themselves.

[Amanda Doyle]

If I ever lost my phone, I'd be fucked. My notes section has some stuff that.

[Abby Wambach]

All right, POD Squad, we love you. We mean it. We're not lying.

[Glennon Doyle]

Swear.

[Abby Wambach]

See you next time. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso. Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.