Glennon Doyle (2:28)

Okay. And I am. I want to talk about this because there have been many inquiries about how I'm doing, which I appreciate. There have also been lots of things about, like, eat a cheeseburger and stuff. I'm not interested in those sorts of comments or responding to those people. But you.

Amanda (2:46)

You did last night. I'm just gonna say.

Glennon Doyle (2:47)

Right. But I do feel that most of the inquiries are from love and from this community in a way that is absolutely beautifully intentioned. And so in that spirit, I want to respond. And so I think it's a tricky time for many of us this past couple of years. Year having to do with the state of everything. And I think that a lot of us are struggling, and when we get scared as Human beings, we tend to fall back on soothing patterns that may be developed as kids. That is a general truism, not always true, but tends to be true. My thing is very visible. So when I get scared or activated or I honestly think that scared is the right word. It sounds silly, but I think it might be the right word. When I get scared in my life of a relational thing or a family thing or a community thing or a world thing, I get hyper vigilant. That's what fear causes. And I usually have like one road that I go down when I'm not being intentional and careful and using my agency. And that road that I go down is food, body. How can I control this thing? Now, I know a lot of people with lots of things that they do when they're scared. Whether it's, you know, relational things, whether it's different sorts of addictions, whether. And those things are less visible in the day to day than the result of my maladaptive behaviors. So when I stop eating, I look very skinny and I look not so healthy. And that is obvious to everyone. Which means when people say, how are you doing? It is harder for me to say, fine, I'm fine. Because they can see the result of how I'm doing. Which is not my favorite thing about having an eating disorder, but it is true. So, you know, I think what happened is that I got really activated and scared. I actually remember it being right before I can remember the feeling in my body actually. And it was right when Biden dropped out of the race. It was some mixture of. It was like a hope, a weird hope that did it. It was like, oh, we gotta fucking go. There's a chance of like, it was a weird, like, warrior up time. Whenever I feel warrior up energy, I think I'm eventually going to be fucked. Because.

Amanda (5:54)

Do you think that, like, is that a conscious thought?

Glennon Doyle (5:56)

No.

Amanda (5:56)

Right when it's happening?

Glennon Doyle (5:57)

No, of course not. I allow myself to be hijacked by an older, more afraid, less wise version of me, by a childhood version of me that's like, okay, it's okay. I know you're scared. This is what we do when we're scared, right?

Abby Wambach (6:15)

I mean, you've just described fight like in. In the, in the nervous system response. When you feel that warrior thing and you're like, let's go. And you're gathering your resources. That's just a. That is, you know, one of the five responses that you have. And so you were like, okay, we can go to war and protect ourselves, let's go.

Glennon Doyle (6:37)

Yeah. Yes. So that's what happened. And it was interesting because in the midst of that and before that, I had been doing so much therapy, and I had really decided a few things. First of all, for me, being, like, publicly out there, being on social media, being this, like, hologram version of myself is dangerous for me. And I think there comes a point where you just stop asking, why? Why can I not handle this and everyone else can? Why can I not figure out a strategy to make this work and still be healthy? So many other people can. You know, that's like a. It's like when you quit drinking and you're annoyed that everyone else seems to be able to handle it and you can't, so you feel bad for yourself and you try all these different versions of not drinking. Maybe if I just drink two a day. Maybe if I. So I did all that with social media for so long, and then there came a point where I was like, actually, I just have to admit that this doesn't work for me and forget the why of it. I decided to stop. I pulled back. There was a really beautiful moment where I was doing an interview for the weekend, two Hard Things book. And this woman looked at me, and it was on, like, the Morning Joe or something, I don't know. And she opened to the chapter, how do I make peace with my body? And she said, you know, you've been struggling with eating disorders your whole life. She said, I have body image issues. So many of us do. This chapter is so incredible. How do I make peace with my body? How do we make peace with our body, Glennon? And it was this incredible moment where I realized, oh, my God, there are two different ways that you can hear that question. The first way is more aligned with, like, individualism, Westernism, all our little perfectionist projects of ourselves, which is like, how do I make peace inside this body? How do I make peace with this? How do I feel comfortable in my own skin for once? It's a legit question. Okay, but there's another way of looking at it which feels more important in this moment and sort of woke me up. And that interview, which is, wait, oh, no, no. How do I go out into this broken world and make peace with this body?

Amanda (9:01)

So good.

Glennon Doyle (9:01)

Where am I taking this body? You know, I'm, like, looking at her, thinking of, like, oh, my God. All the people who are, like, lined up in their communities, blocking ice from getting to their neighbors. All the people whose bodies are at these protests day after day, all the people who are, like, walking into high Schools and saying, where's the queer alliance? I want to stand with these kids when they're under attack. All, where are people putting their bodies? Because we are a culture that has been mistaken, that if we just think right, if we just have the right take, if we just believe right, if we just sit in our houses and think correctly, we're on the right side of history. But that doesn't matter. Nobody is ever going to ask us what we thought. They're gonna ask us what we did. Were we the people who went out into the world and used our bodies to make this peace? And so something about that process made me realize, okay, I want to just have my body. I want to use my body in these places out in the world to make peace. And so I kind of created this retreat from Hologram Life, which is social media, and decided I need to just have my body in these places. It was like, the only places I felt safe all week or felt hopeful were at protests, were at. When my body was among other people who were people of hope and action. And then this really inconvenient thing kept happening at these protests, which is that I realized that what these people, these badass activists who are organizing and doing all of this work needed is for everybody to use what. What they have and what they could for the highest good. So I'm sitting there at these protests thinking, holy shit, like, my body's here. But, like, if we're. If we're at a free Palestine protest, if we are demanding that representatives sign, like, the block, the bombs, whatever the thing is of the day that we are there demanding, what they need me to do is not just have my body here. They need me to use my platform. They need me to get my ass back on there. And by the way, I don't know if any of this is right. I'm just telling you, this was my thought process at the time. And so it's like I had decided to retreat. And then I realized, but I don't want. I want to be used the way that I can best be used. I want to use what I have. And I also don't want to look back on this time as a time where I retreated and abandoned everybody. Like, I didn't want to say I have to protect my peace at a time when so many people don't have that option. Right. That, like, that just felt wrong to me.

Abby Wambach (12:07)

And that wouldn't have brought you peace either.

Glennon Doyle (12:09)

Exactly.

Abby Wambach (12:10)

Not that it's selfish, just that that's not helpful to bring you peace is by pretending you can have peace when it doesn't exist.

Glennon Doyle (12:20)

It's not peace, it's something else. Right? So then I, like, was like, all right, it. I'm just going to come back and just do all the things and. And be on social and that. It was all over the place, really. I mean, that's when, like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel was like, can you come on and talk about immigration? I was doing, like, a lot of in real life organizing, like, with communities that I love and, like, doing it, but then was asked to be a spokesperson, which is what was needed by the groups I was organizing with. Now I am used to every five or six years having a breakdown with eating. That is what my life has been. And what I usually do at those times is be like, okay, got it. I need to. To stop everything. I need to retreat. I need to get my shit together. I need to get stronger. And then I'll come back as like, the healthier version of myself. And I've done that several times over my career is I've just, like, stopped and therapized and done the thing and remembered my healthy things and gotten myself back on track. And this time it just felt like, I don't think that there's time for that. Like, I don't think. I feel like this is a time where we just have to show up all jacked up and just kind of stumble our way through. And maybe it's more important than ever to do that, because I think a lot of people maybe are so afraid and so brokenhearted that they are not showing up, that they are not speaking. But those are the exact people we need speaking. Because if the people who are afraid and devastated and broken hearted by this are not speaking, then the only people who are speaking are the people who are not brokenhearted and devastated and angry by this. And that's how we get this dystopian dysphoria of, like, nobody cares and where is everybody?

Abby Wambach (14:25)

That's what I was thinking when you were talking about the two ways of make peace with your body. I was thinking of a third way to look at that. Call a truce with this shitty body that is creating all of these problems for me and that I don't really love. And it's like, we make peace, we call a truce, Okay? I can live with you, you can live with me. We call it a day. And then there's this. Go out and use my body as an instrument of peace, right? I'm going to go stand with these people. I'm gonna Put it on the line. I'm gonna make it. And then there's another way of thinking about it where it's like.

Glennon Doyle (15:12)

How do.

Abby Wambach (15:12)

I make peace with my body? Like, how do I find peace inside of my body? Which is different than truce and different than making something happen. And this is, this is something that I feel like is what you're just talking about right now, which is that if, if I can't find peace inside of my body, which is a very, very tall order any day of the week, any era of the world, but in this era we're in right now of genocide, of fascism, of police state, of every time you turn around, something very, very rightfully alarming and outrageous is happening. It is a, like varsity level time to be able to find peace inside of yourself.

Glennon Doyle (16:00)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (16:00)

And I think that that is something we should be talking about on this podcast because it's. I think it's exactly right. Like, people are like, I am so overwhelmed. It's fight, flight, fun, flop, freeze. Like the, the flopping is real. The, like, I literally can't get out of my bed. I can't find the energy, I can't find a will. I'm. I can't tolerate these feelings.

Glennon Doyle (16:26)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (16:27)

And so I think that's happening a lot to people and is taking a lot of people out of the game that would be very valuable players, not to mention really ruining people's ability to even function right now.

Glennon Doyle (16:46)

Yeah. Yeah. And it really, when I like take a step back from it. We've known in our, we've known in our gut and so many people have tried to teach us that these little self improvement perfection projects that we're given under the name of wellness, that we just have to like, fix ourselves, that we just have to self help our way, that we just have to like, we're just like so many books and tricks away from perfection that I guess is this fake promised land that then when we get there, we'll be ready to show up for the world. Is, I can see it, a direct correlation now of like, oh, isn't that convenient? Like, you've created this obstacle course to keep us spinning and busy and staring in our mirrors and staring because we never think we're good enough. And the result of that is we're not showing up on the streets, we're not showing up on the. Because we think we're not ready for it because we've been lied to. These things are very connected. Like if, if we are sad and upset and confused and a little broken and in Maladaptive behaviors. And so what? That's the human experience. Like get a go ahead and join everybody else who is also. Exactly all of those things. Because in my anorexia, in my beauty obsession, in my perfectionist program, if anybody were going to find peace in it, it would have been me. I'm just telling you, I have committed, I have stopped eating, I have disciplined myself, I have tried everything. If there was any real peace to be found inside of the wellness machine, I would have found it. All I can tell you is that there is some sort of. When you are saying, how do you find peace in your body? There is some peace, truth, joy that rises up that I feel swelling inside of me when my body is in those places where people have joined together to say no or to say yes to each other or to protect each other. There is a peace that has been lied to me, that it's over here in the individual wellness and that is inside of using your body for collective liberation. That is the closest I've come to whatever that thing is, the peace. So the point is, I want to tell you a little story that is. Might sound silly on the outside, but I think shows a way we can live in these moments in like step by step process. Okay.

Amanda (19:34)

Okay.

Glennon Doyle (19:35)

All right. So a few months ago, while I'm dealing with this whole, like, am I supposed to be a hologram for the cause? Am I supposed to be in my body and community for the cause? Am I supposed to have. Where do I find peace? How do I live time? And also not eating? Because I mean, think about it. When you're a, an animal on the plane, when you sense fear, you don't stop to eat. That's like not something that people do when they're hyper vigilant. Like when somebody says on a movie, how can you eat at a time like this? That's how I feel all the time. All the time. I feel like, how are any of us resting or eating at a time like this? And that is not a healthy way to think. It's like being on a pointless, some sort of pointless missionless hunger strike. Okay. It's like, what are you striking against? It's just all of this. Okay.

Abby Wambach (20:37)

And it's anxiety, right? Like, it is anxiety. It is a. I can't. It is a response to extreme anxiety.

Glennon Doyle (20:50)

Yes. There's something about painting that to me is the opposite of, of anorexic hyper vigilance. And I can feel it when I'm, When I'm holding, I'm. When I'm Holding a paintbrush and I'm even turned towards my easel. I can feel it in my body because it's like, oh my God. My entire back is turned away from whatever could be a threat to me. I'm so, I feel so safe here that my back is turned. I'm just like engrossed in this flow state which means I am by definition not even paying attention to whatever threats are on the outside. That is to me the opposite of hyper vigilant is like being in flow.

Abby Wambach (21:34)

State and art and it's not in this moment like, like all anxiety is like what is this moment requiring of me? What is. So how do I protect myself? How do I protect the world? How do I. And when you're in that creative right side of your brain actually doesn't know about time or moments.

Glennon Doyle (21:56)

Exactly.

Abby Wambach (21:57)

You are out of that.

Glennon Doyle (21:58)

That's exactly right. If it's hysterical, it's historical. Yes. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to we can do hard things for free.

Abby Wambach (22:10)

I am a big fan of the sunshine. I need the sun in my life like my body does photosynthesis. And despite all of that, I somehow am deficient in vitamin D. And for a minute I had no clue what to do next. There's a ton of supplement brands out there and they're all making big claims. But if you're looking for transparency, it's ritual all the way. Ritual put their essential for women 18 plus multivitamin through a university led clinical trial. In just 12 weeks, participants saw vitamin D levels increased by 43% and omega 3 DHA levels by 41%. I love it when I can tell what's in the bottle is backed up by trials because and I know this is revolutionary, I want to know exactly what I'm putting into my body. That's why ritual stands out. Every morning I take my Ritual multi just two capsules. They're delayed release so the nutrients actually get absorbed where they're supposed to. It's perfect and easy addition to my morning routine. No more shady business rituals. Essential for Women is a multivitamin you can actually trust. Get 25% off your first month only@ritual.com wecandohardthings start ritual today and add Essential for Women to your subscription today. That's ritual.com wecandohardthings for 25% off hair shedding. If you're struggling with it, it's not fun, trust me. I've been afraid to even look down in the shower sometimes. But Then I gave Nutrafol a shot and honestly, it surprised me so much. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. You can feel great about what you're putting in your body since Nutruful hair growth supplements are backed by peer reviewed studies and NSF Content certified, the gold standard in third party certification for supplements. And it's easy. Four pills a day with a meal. That's it. And I love, love that everything is automated. It ships right to my door. See Thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code we can do Hard Things Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement brand@nutrafol.com that's spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code we can do hard things one.

Amanda (24:50)

Thing certain about the business world? Uncertainty. But what if you could replace the guessing game with real time Data and insight? One word. NetSuite. Over 42,000 businesses have already future proofed their operations with NetSuite. It's the number one AI cloud ERP, bringing together accounting, financial management, inventory, HR, all in one seamless platform. Instead of juggling disconnected systems, NetSuite gives you one source of truth. That means visibility, control and the ability to make smarter, faster decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're looking ahead with the data. You can actually act. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. And when you can close the books in days, not weeks, you're free to stop obsessing over the past and focused on what's next. If I were starting a business and hey, who knows what life will bring, I would have booked that demo yesterday. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com hardthings the guide is free to you at netsuite.com hardThings netsuite.com hardthings.

Glennon Doyle (26:18)

So the story I want to tell you is if you slow it down as we go and I worked out this entire story with my in real time with everyone in my newsletter community. God bless their hearts. Okay? So they were with me through this whole thing. If you slow it down as you listen, I think you can kind of see what my therapists are trying to teach me in terms of embodiment, in terms of not being black or white, in terms of not being all in or all out, but mindfully walking through moments, paying attention to what's in your body and curating the experience on the earth that you want to have, while not giving up your mission on the planet, while not giving up your mission, nor your agency. So why. Okay, so GLAAD reaches out to Abby and I lots of months ago and says, will you guys speak at the GLAAD Awards Now? An award show is not my comfort zone. Okay? It's like, get all dressed up, stand on the thing, do the thing. Normally that would be a hard no, right? That's 99 a hard no from our.

Amanda (27:27)

For us. Yeah, almost all. All of them.

Glennon Doyle (27:29)

Yeah, almost always. I mean, to be fair, most award shows are right also, but this one is. Is not. So.

Amanda (27:37)

I like award shows.

Glennon Doyle (27:38)

I know you do. So. And I love that for you. I just want to say.

Amanda (27:43)

Yeah, I know.

Glennon Doyle (27:43)

Yeah. So I felt something interesting, though, when I read the invitation, which is usually ever just an easy no, thank you. No, thank you. But what I felt in my body was like, actually, I want to speak to queer kids right now. I actually do want to be a person who's looking into a camera speaking to a bunch of afraid, angry queer kids all over the country and their parents, and I want to speak directly to them in the midst of all this bullshit. And I actually want to be a person who does that. That was weird. So I say to Abby, I think that I want to say yes to this. And we have conversation about it. She's like, oh, my God, are you serious? Are you sure? Blah, blah, blah. I say, yes, I do. I want to say yes. I want to go speak to the queer kiddos. I'm so proud of myself. I respond, I say, yes, we will be there, tell us when, etc. Etc. I walk around for a few days feeling very proud of myself. Then a few days later, I get an email from the organizers who are absolutely lovely, and they say, okay, great. Here's your information. You need to be at the red carpet at 6. Your media is at 6:30, and then the awards start at 8. And that's when I think, oh, my entire body just goes, absolutely not. I will not do this. This is. Actually, I changed my mind. I do not want to go to this event. For me, a red carpet, it's a slice of hell. It's like for someone who's working on embodiment and not. And trying to not worry about how others are perceiving and trying to stay in your moment. Being screamed at and like.

Abby Wambach (29:37)

Or.

Glennon Doyle (29:38)

Or. Well, both scenarios are bad. Being screamed at is terrible. Not being screamed at is terrible. Either you're too important or you're not important at all.

Abby Wambach (29:47)

The attention on me or none of the attention on me. Either one is terrifying.

Glennon Doyle (29:51)

Yeah, totally. I mean, I've had experiences where people put a microphone in my face and ask me the most ridiculous questions that I can't answer in real time. Or look at me and they're like, abby, who is your per. Like, it's. It's.

Abby Wambach (30:07)

It's either this, your assistant, Abby.

Glennon Doyle (30:09)

It's the grandiosity, the neuroticness and the narcissism of it is just too much for a human being to be able to gracefully form this human being. Yeah, right.

Amanda (30:19)

And to be fair, for somebody who has done them a lot and somebody who feels just ambivalent about them, it's just like a part of the gig in a way to me. And it's not my favorite thing ever either. I'm just like, this is something I have to. This is part of the job.

Glennon Doyle (30:40)

We were at one. One time last year, a couple years ago, we were at the TED Lasso premiere.

Amanda (30:46)

Oh, my God.

Glennon Doyle (30:47)

And we've had so many red carpet stories. So we get to the. We've they. And we love. So we were like, we're going to do. This is good. This is the soccer. This is the believe. We're going to go, I can do this. We get to. It's frenzy. It's crazy. It's so many lights, so many things, so much screaming. We get super close to the time where you're supposed to walk out and they yell your name. And then you have to, like, pretend that you've taken all the posing classes that all the other people have. And you have to, like, smile or not smile or I don't know what you do. And Abby goes into this mode. I don't know if you've ever seen her. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's posing, she's. She's serving, she's giving. She's doing whatever the hell you're supposed to do on a red carpet. And I am standing there like the most awkward appendage. It's just Abby looks at me before we go. We're about to step out, and she looks at me and she sees something on my face, which is terror. And she goes, we're not doing this. And she pulls me out of the line and pulls me behind the screen, which is like the woods in the middle of la. We're standing in the middle of the woods. I've narrowly escaped the red carpet.

Abby Wambach (31:57)

The woods in the middle of la.

Glennon Doyle (31:59)

That was a credibility leap, Doyle.

Abby Wambach (32:01)

No, including the woods in the middle of LA kind of curtain.

Amanda (32:05)

No. So the. The press situation for the premiere of Ted Lasso, they had like, they had built in stadium seats, and so there was like a lot of.

Glennon Doyle (32:15)

Oh, it was underneath stairs.

Amanda (32:17)

Yeah. There. Yes. We had to crawl underneath, like, the stadium section where. Where when the famous people walk by and they're doing the red carpet. They have. You could have, like, fans looking down upon the.

Glennon Doyle (32:28)

Oh, we were under the bleachers.

Amanda (32:30)

Yeah, we were.

Glennon Doyle (32:31)

It's a bleachers woods.

Amanda (32:32)

Yeah, it was like the scaffolding that was built.

Glennon Doyle (32:34)

Okay. Well, in my mind, we were in the middle of the W and we had narrowly escaped this thing. And then there's these two women standing behind in the woods bleachers, and they go, Clennon and Abby. These were Jason Sudeikis two sisters who were also hiding in the woods. Hiding in the woods. It's like, it was the best, and they were the best. And we talked to them forever. Anyway, the point is, we've had lo so many red carpet experiences. One time, Abby tried to help me by giving me sunglasses that I could just close my eyes when all the cameras started. But then it turned out that the glasses were see through, so I looked like I was just standing as with.

Amanda (33:09)

The flashes, you could still kind of see. And there's a few pictures that are posted that she's just like this.

Glennon Doyle (33:14)

I look so stoned on the red carpet. Well, that's another strategy.

Abby Wambach (33:17)

Could have. Yeah. So you said, I'm not doing the.

Glennon Doyle (33:22)

That's it.

Abby Wambach (33:23)

The glad red carpet. So I'm out.

Glennon Doyle (33:25)

I'm out. It was a bad idea. This was a bad idea. So I sit, I talk to Abby Battle. I say, actually, you know, at dinner, actually, we're not gonna do it. And she's like, okay. Like, God, she doesn't care. She hasn't been obsessing about whether we were going or not. I'm just informing her what our life is that I'm constantly just informing her of what my brain has been obsessing about for the last 10 hours. And she's never been obsessing about it. She's fine either way. This always stuns me. I just want to come back. If reincarnation is real, as someone like Abby, because I have done my time as someone like me. So I say, we're not going. She says, okay, that's fine, whatever. So here's what I decide to do. The next morning, I decide to take the therapist's advice and I sit with this email and I try to pay attention to what's happening in my body. Okay? So I reread the email that came through yesterday and it says something like, we are so excited to have you speak to the our queer family. I'm fine. My body's fine. Then I get to the sentence that says be at the red carpet. And the thing that says the thing about media, do all the interviews and that I feel in my body a clenching, a gaping hollow wound of misery and dread. I feel dread. But the interesting thing, you guys, is that it wasn't dread about the whole thing. It was dread about a part of the thing.

Amanda (35:08)

Interesting.

Glennon Doyle (35:09)

Which I understand for some people watching are going to be like, wow, you are not good at life. But for some people you're going to get this, okay? Now it is part of my growing to not be so black or white, okay? To not be so all in or not in. To work with the nuances of life more. So I decide what I'm going to do is write back to GLAAD and I am going to tell them why I cannot do this part. But I can do this part. I write a seven paragraph essay to GLAAD about embodiment, about agency, about cultural expectations of women in outfits, of red carpets, of objectification, of whatever. It is so good. And then I read it and I think, these poor people don't deserve this. Why do these poor people who are just trying to organize an event for queer people deserve a dissertation from me about objectivity and subjectivity. So here's what I do. I delete the whole thing and I write two sentences that say, we will not be doing the red carpet or the media. We will be arriving right before the dinner and we will speak. Thank you so much. Then I send it and I sit and I wait for them to disrespect me.

Amanda (36:48)

To disrespect you.

Glennon Doyle (36:50)

I wait, what does it look like for them?

Amanda (36:52)

Disrespectful?

Glennon Doyle (36:53)

Well, what it looks like is that they are going to write back to me and tell me that I can't do that and that is not right and that I have to do the whole thing. And that here are all the reason.

Abby Wambach (37:03)

The entitlement of thinking that you could just do part and not the other. And you Just you are a selfish.

Glennon Doyle (37:13)

Yes. And I sit there and I am so mad. Two hours later I am furious at Glad. I am certain they have never represented anyone's interest and that they don't reset. Respect me, a queer person's needs and.

Abby Wambach (37:27)

You have 10 paragraphs prepared for the eventuality that they send the email that you're absolutely certain they will.

Glennon Doyle (37:35)

Oh my God, I'm in a tizzy. When I tell you you're preparing for the worst. Two hours, I'm creating the worst. I'm becoming the worst. Okay. Two hours later I get an email back that says, great, we'll see you then. What? Great, we'll see you then. Okay. This is a small miracle to me. I have through paying attention to my body, which tells me what I want and don't want. Through communicating those needs non dramatically and saying what I will do and will not do, I have created a new way of being in the world that is like, okay, I will do your thing, but I will do it my way. This is what I think embodiment is. It's like when you're letting your old little girl self run everything. You have to be like, no to everything or yes, full obedience. None of it has to do with your desire. Right. You're either afraid and you're rebelling or you're obedient and a yes person. You. There's no freedom in that. Right? Because rebellion is just as much rejection is just as much of a cage as obedience. It's still living in absolute reaction to whatever power is suggesting you should do. If you say yes to it all, that's not freedom. If you say no to it all, that's not freedom. But there is a space of agency that is checking in with the culture's request of you and then checking in with what your desire is and your limits are and your boundaries and saying, if you want this part of me, you can have it. You can't have any of the rest of it. Deal or no deal.

Abby Wambach (39:36)

And that feels to me like that is that third kind of making peace with your body.

Glennon Doyle (39:40)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (39:41)

Like that is the ability to find peace in your body at every stage of that. You were like, okay, I am seeing this email. I have peace in the first. In the first line. I don't have peace here.

Glennon Doyle (39:57)

Huh.

Abby Wambach (39:58)

Okay, so I don't have to spin all of my energy and all. I mean, if you were to do that again, I don't have to live in a perpetual state of self protection because that's really what it is, is self Protection. It's not I'm pissed at them. It is that I need to stay vigilant because I'm the only one that's going to protect myself. I'm the only one who ever has protected myself. And so I will be ready and I will already have my arguments and I will already have everything I need to step in and protect myself as opposed to this place of like I'm going to pay attention to myself, find my peace. Oh, my peace is this way. I can do this and not this. And then I'm going to maintain my peace out of honor of myself and not go down the rabbit hole of preemptive arguments and preemptive protections because that is disturbing my peace.

Glennon Doyle (40:55)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (40:56)

And then I can trust myself that whatever they come back with, I don't have to preemptively prepare. I can respond in that moment in a way that is honoring of me and of this situation. Because for me the way that that works is I spin in self protection. I prepare for every eventuality. I am ready, I am armed, and I then don't even act appropriate to the specific circumstances because I have been in argument, in relationship, in preparation with the other person or thing for so long preparing that I don't even meet the situation as it is. I meet the situation as I've prepared it to be.

Glennon Doyle (41:47)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (41:48)

So like that kind of piece is okay. I'm going to be good. I'm not going to make a situation or deal with a situation that doesn't exist. I'm. But I am going to promise myself I'm going to deal with a situation that does exist and I'm going to trust myself that I will actually be better prepared for that situation if I don't pre prepare.

Glennon Doyle (42:15)

Exactly.

Abby Wambach (42:17)

Than if I do.

Amanda (42:18)

What is the antidote though, do you think, to this mindset? Because I think you guys are both very similar in this way. What do you think it's not just like looking through the email and deciding what part of it you like or not, but like the bigger, like the bigger antidote. Like how do you solve this for yourself, do you think?

Glennon Doyle (42:39)

Well, I think.

Amanda (42:39)

And is that even the, the goal? I don't know.

Glennon Doyle (42:42)

Yeah. I mean, I think living in a way of agency and kindness and self sovereignty is the goal. And I think that when I find myself behaving as if I am a person on a witness stand, when I find myself creating a case for myself, when I find myself making arguments in my mind that justify why I should be able to have what I need, that is a sign that is a flag that I'm not in my self sovereignty. I'm not in court. I don't have to prove a case. When somebody's trying to prove a case that they have a right to meet their own needs. That is an old story. That is maybe you didn't get your feelings validated when you were little. Maybe you didn't have the agent. So you constantly are making up reasons why your needs are legit. You are yourself is always on trial. That's a sign that when I'm demonizing somebody else. These people from GLAAD were nothing but beautiful and kind and perfect the whole way through. Everything was made up in my head that they weren't going to respect my needs. When I'm demonizing somebody else, that's a sign that I'm out of self sovereignty. To me, the answer, the goal is that I can receive a request from the world. Whether that's a request from, you know, a work thing like this or an activism thing like this, or from you or from the kids or from anybody in the world. And I can remember that that person, that entity, is not responsible for knowing and protecting my needs. There's only one person in this, in this equation who is responsible for knowing what she needs and saying yes or no or a combination of yes and no that meets her needs. And that is me. So I have to go through less and less recently, but I do have to go through a period where I am woe is me ing and wondering why nobody will protect me and wondering why nobody will meet all of my needs. Which is absolutely hilarious because I am the only person whose responsibility that is. And now it's time for our ads.

Amanda (45:09)

Okay. Peloton is shaping the future of fitness with the brand new Peloton cross training Tread plus powered by Peloton iq. So as you might imagine, I'm kind of particular about how I work out. So I have the hardest time running on my own nowadays and got a hurt ankle. But in fact, I just can't really do it anymore. And the new Peloton Tread plus has been a game changer because I can mix things up and I definitely need that variety. The Tread plus has it all. It combines running, lifting, recovery, everything you want. It's been a game changer for me because I can't run hard on my foot right now because I have foot and ankle issues. But the tread is forgiving enough and gives me enough incline to get a solid sweat in. But what I love most is that the screen swivels and so it guides me through an awesome weight session after I get on the tread on that incline. It's really amazing, truly. And it also has my high schoolers used it a few times so I don't know what that says, but I think it's probably a good thing. Seriously, I am stunned at how much I didn't know I needed this. Tread +Peloton IQ also builds me a personalized plan. Weekly classes that match my mood and my goals. Guided by the instructor I connect with most and the swivel screen. Like I said, it's just genius. You gotta check this thing out, you guys. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go Explore the new peloton cross training tread plus@1peloton.com if there's one thing we.

Abby Wambach (46:46)

Know about we can do hard things, listeners is that y' all are navigating some big things. A lot of them are big changes. Some of you are considering leaving your job. Some of you are stay at home parents ready to rejoin the workforce. Others are just starting out in a tough job market. Wherever you are, here's the good news. You don't have to figure it out alone. Our sponsor, Strawberry Me is here. They're making high quality career coaching accessible. Career coaching is more than just polishing a resume or practicing interview answers. It's about having someone hold up a mirror, helping you clarify your values, your skills, your real goals. I remember being terrified to leave my corporate law firm job years ago. The pay was stable. I'd worked so hard to get there and walking away felt impossible, even though I was miserable. But if I had just stuck it out, I would never be here today. If you're ready to get unstuck, Visit Strawberry Me. WeCanDoHardThings to claim a special offer and get started today. That's Strawberry Me. Wecandohardthings. Stop settling. Start building the career and the life you actually want.

Glennon Doyle (48:05)

As you all know by now, I have struggled with eating disorders since I was 10 years old. It is really something how much disordered eating can steal from us. Not just our health, but our joy and our relationships and our peace. Given the prevalence of eating disorders, it feels criminal how inaccessible treatment can be. Accessing treatment just is a sea of navigating wait lists, insurance, and trying to find any care that actually works. If you're worried about yourself or someone you love, I would like to introduce you to a resource called equip. Equip is a fully virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting Recovery at home. Every Equip patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietitian, medical provider, and mentors. I will tell you that is what it took for me and continues to take for me is an entire team. And you also get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. And it's covered by insurance, and there is no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health Hardthings to learn more. That's Equip Health Hardthings.

Abby Wambach (49:39)

I think, also. Exactly that. And the thing under that thing, the reason why it's like, I have to protect myself. I can't let them say X. I gotta be ready to say Y. If they say X is this fear that we won't be able to tolerate our feelings. Because that's the. The protection really isn't from necessarily just doing the thing. The protection is from the intolerable feelings that will happen in me that I'm trying to get in front of.

Glennon Doyle (50:28)

Yes.

Abby Wambach (50:29)

By preventing you from doing what it is you people always do to me, which is true. Like when you say those. That was not justified. Those people were great. Yes, those people were great. And also, your body has learned over and over and over again, you haven't made that up, that you have to get in front of that. But I think it stems from this idea that, like, I need at all costs to avoid this intolerable situation where something happens. And I feel like this. Yeah, I feel like X. I feel like Y. And so the trusting of yourself to take care of yourself is both. I know that I will have what I need in any situation and that I can trust myself to have the agency and to say what I need. And also, I know that no matter what I feel, I can deal with it. Yes, I can survive it. Because then that's the only logical reason for why people run around like us, trying desperately to make sure that we have our situations all locked down so that that doesn't happen. It's like, okay, similarly to, like, when that situation happens, I'll be ready no matter what. It's. If I have a. If I have that awful feeling, what I'm gonna do is have that awful feeling.

Glennon Doyle (51:59)

Yeah.

Abby Wambach (52:00)

And I'm gonna get. I'm gonna let it pass, and then I don't have to spend all my energy Avoiding it totally.

Glennon Doyle (52:10)

And isn't there a place for like. I think that there is a place for knowing yourself well enough to know if I put myself in that situation again, I am going to have an icky feeling that I don't want some, Some, some, yeah, some hard feelings are important and some are utter horseshit. Like there is nothing that my ass being on that red carpet matters for. I'm sorry. Like, I don't. There are some feelings.

Amanda (52:39)

The price that you pay is not worth the pay.

Glennon Doyle (52:42)

Absolutely.

Amanda (52:42)

The, the payoff.

Glennon Doyle (52:44)

Right.

Abby Wambach (52:44)

And you know that. So you're gonna, that's your line. But, but I just mean when we go down the flowchart in our minds in the shower when we're sleeping and we're like having the fake arguments of if they say this, then they say this, then I say this, then that. So I don't know what they're going to say. Whatever they're going to say, I, I can either do the misery now and play it out 10 different ways and have and guarantee that anxiety and that shitty feeling, or I can let people say whatever the fuck they're going to say and maybe they won't say any of those things and I can have that experience when it's actually happening instead of 1400 times before it maybe does or doesn't.

Glennon Doyle (53:29)

But that requires that is okay. Yes. But having confidence that you're going to be able to handle like something that in the moment is what this sort of exercise builds. The reason why we don't think I can go non vigilant because when this person says whatever they're going to say, I'm going to have my agency and my wits about me and my power and I'm going to be able to respond in a grown up way that is in the moment and not historical, not from my past is a skill. It is like how an athlete knows, okay, I can go into the game and I'm going to be able to perform because I have been practicing and I know what that feels like. And I don't think that you or I have done enough like practice of like having our power and peace in the moment to trust that we get will. So that's why all the preparation and all the stuff happens before. That's what I think. I think it's a skill being embodied. I think saying yes or no in the moment, not explaining yourself because what that requires is I am okay if these people don't understand my why.

Amanda (54:40)

Okay, I just want to back up just a little bit because I'm I want to ask you both a couple questions. 1. So this is this thought process, this way of life and being is a way to create more safety in your body. Because sometimes when life is happening, the world, it feels if you feel unsafe or out of control. Right. Is. Am I characterizing that correct? And so ways that you have maybe maladapted to the world around you, sending these on these signals that the world is ever changing and uncontrollable. You are like, okay, I'm. In order to bring myself and my nervous system into a place of peace, I have to then go about maintaining some sort of order and control, whether it be through email exchange or through person to person exchange. I have to do something in order to be safe. Yes. Okay, can you give me an example? And I'm trying to figure out this link between the reality of safety and the feeling of anxiety.

Glennon Doyle (55:58)

Okay, I've got an example.

Amanda (56:00)

Do you know what I'm trying to say here?

Glennon Doyle (56:01)

Yes. There was still an element of discomfort that I had going to this particular event. And I want to. There's been a million of these. I want to stick with this one event because I feel like it's helpful to see it play out in real time on a small scale. We had talked about the difficulty of when I am struggling with eating. To circle back to the beginning of this episode, going out into the world because my thing, my maladaptive behavior is so visible. Okay. Not only is it visible, but an event like this one, fancy red carpet, women in gowns, the whole thing, my thing is celebrated.

Amanda (56:43)

Right.

Glennon Doyle (56:44)

So.

Amanda (56:44)

Right.

Glennon Doyle (56:45)

What the mind fuck of being very sick with anorexia and being at a red carpet event is that when I tell you that there is a script that people say it is, you look amazing. You look amazing. The more emaciated you are. It is like it triggers something. And I'm not judging anyone. Like, this is in all of us. I don't know what the hell it is. But the thing that is said is you look amazing. And so I knew that was going to happen. My ribs were sticking out. I knew that that was going to be clocked and that was going to happen. And that is a disgusting moment for me because now this idea that the smaller you are and the closer you come to ceasing to exist, the more amazing you are. I am now not only sick from that, but I am complicit in that I am now being used as an example that will fuck other people up.

Abby Wambach (57:51)

Yeah, you're perpetuating it.

Glennon Doyle (57:53)

I'm Perpetuating it and being used by even and accepting the word amazing. So.

Abby Wambach (57:59)

Which is ironic in the context of celebrating people who are. Everyone is trying to make stop exist right now, Right?

Glennon Doyle (58:10)

So for me, the preparation, what you're saying is the anxiety of that, the thinking of that, the preparing for that moment, the whatever. That would be me probably obsessing about it, getting extremely angry with the whole thing, maybe writing a letter before it even happened, probably saying no, probably just a whole thing. Right. If you remember, we went to that event. Abby and I are standing there. This woman comes up. She says, I can tell from her eyes that she has just clocked my ribs. This is. You can. I know this process. I know I've seen it a million times. She says, you look so amazing. What is your secret? And the microphone and all of it. And in the moment, I was thinking, okay, here I am. I'm doing your thing. What would this look like to do it my way? And I said, oh, my secret is that I have a severe, deadly mental disorder called anorexia. That is why I look like this. This is not amazing. This is a sickness that has largely been created in me by a culture that insists in a million different ways to women that the smaller they are or the least, the less they acknowledge their own needs, and the more that they slowly disappear, the more amazing they are. So that's my secret. And I'm telling it to you because I don't want to be used to further this message to other people. When. When girls or women look at my body, I don't want them to think that's amazing. I want them to think, oh, God, let's, like, work harder to get rid of the messages that cause this to happen. And so when I look at what an amazing body is right now, I don't feel impressed or in awe of bodies that look like they spend their entire one wild and precious life disciplining themselves or working out or toning themselves or. An amazing body to me, is any body that looks like it is allowing itself to rest and eat and show up and be fully human on this earth. That is what is amazing to me. This is not amazing. And she goes, wow, thanks for sharing. And Abby and I walk away. And Abby goes, oh, my God. She probably just wanted to know what your skin cream was.

Abby Wambach (61:07)

No, I've seen your skin. You have that very menopausy skin right now.

Glennon Doyle (61:10)

Who the hell would want to know my skin cream? They would want to know it so they could avoid it.

Amanda (61:15)

No, this is prior to menopause rosacea.

Glennon Doyle (61:18)

Anyway, the point is, I felt maybe because of the practice that I had had with the emails and the saying, no, okay, I'll do your thing, but I'll do it my way, I was fully present and able to respond in that moment in a truthful, honest way. And that changed the game.

Amanda (61:40)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (61:41)

So that is an example. I wasn't ready for that. I didn't prepare that thing in my mind. I heard her say a thing, and it didn't feel right or true to me. So in the moment, I told the truth. And that is the opposite of, you know, creating a battle plan beforehand or talking yourself out of it. And I just want to end with this. When we were on our way.

Amanda (62:02)

Before you end, I just want to say, but you prepared yourself for that moment by the response of the email saying, not this, but that. And that is a practice that you are saying that, like, you and Amanda need to keep working on in order to. When you are in the real world, when you can't control the variables as much that you give yourself permission to say, not this, but that. And that is what you did in that moment. Sorry.

Glennon Doyle (62:30)

And then just let the chips fall wherever and let everybody think whatever they want to think.

Amanda (62:33)

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle (62:34)

Not trying to control the narratives. I can barely control the narrative about myself in my own mind. I cannot anymore spend any time trying to control anyone else's narrative about me in their mind. That is the definition of insanity. So this is a cool thing. And I want anybody, any pod squatter who is a nervous nelly, anxious bunny, maladaptive hypervigilance person to listen to this story, because this is for you. We stand up on the stage, we do the thing. You will notice in the video that we do a fine job and we get through it, but I am doing a lot of, like, shaking and rocking. Okay. I didn't know that at the time. After the dinner, we leave, we get in the car, we're driving home, and Abby's, like, quiet, and she looks at me and she goes, are you okay? And I said, I never know what the answer to that is. And she says, you just were shaking all night. Like, you were shaking during dinner. You were shaking during walking in. You were. Your body has been shaking all night. And she said, do you. Honey, do you actually think. I know you think you wanted to do this. You felt, but do you think this is good for you? And I was like. I was. I was so emotional about it, but I was like, look, I don't know. I can't control what My body does. Like, this is just what happens. But when you had, like, a broken leg or a broken busted eyeball or whatever in soccer, you didn't say, all right, I guess my body is. So I'm just gonna not do what I came to the planet to do. You just got your eye stapled or got a rod in your leg, and you got back in the game, and I can't. This is just how I'm gonna look if I show up. But I can't keep my anxiety or whatever is causing all of this to keep me from doing what I think I'm here to do on the Earth. So I think I might sometimes just have to go to things and just shake the whole time and let anybody think whatever the fuck they want to think about my shaking. What I know is I got on stage and said the words that I wanted to say to those queer kids, shaking or not. And so it was very quiet, and I was feeling a little bit like, maybe like a tiny bit of shame. Like, why am I like this? Why is this a thing? Why does Abby have to. To deal with a shaking dog partner and everything? And she goes. It's all quiet. She goes, you are the bravest motherfucker I know.

Amanda (65:18)

Seriously.

Glennon Doyle (65:20)

And when I tell you I thought we were having a shared moment, Like, I thought in the car, we were both having a shared moment of, like, well, poor Glennon. Poor Glennon.

Abby Wambach (65:32)

She's just.

Glennon Doyle (65:33)

This is how she is, and she's such a wimp. Like, I thought we were in a mutual moment of wimpness, and Abby was in a different moment where she was thinking, you're the bravest motherfucker I know.

Amanda (65:47)

Seriously, I would never. If. If my body shook like it hers did all night. I was, like, rubbing her leg, and I'm like, is she cold? I was like, are you cold? You want my jacket? No, I'm fine.

Glennon Doyle (66:01)

If.

Amanda (66:01)

If my body was in that state for a long period of time, I'd be out of there.

Glennon Doyle (66:06)

But. No, you wouldn't. No, but here. You just did the thing.

Amanda (66:11)

No, here's life. I'm telling you, if my body. I am not as brave as that. I know that for a fact that, like, I have certain limits. And if my body starts to shake, I'm not doing it. And it's not because it's not the right thing to do. It's not because I don't believe in it. It's because I literally just don't like shaking that much. And Glennon is like, you know what? I'M gonna. This is just who I am. This is what I have to do. And I need to. I wanna do some of these important things in my life. And if I have to show up and shake and I just thought, you are the bravest motherfucker I've ever known.

Glennon Doyle (66:48)

It was so sweet. And I just. I wanted to send.

Amanda (66:51)

That's amazing.

Glennon Doyle (66:52)

To all the people who are more like my nervous system than Abby's nervous system and who maybe feel w about the shaking or whatever your version of shaking is. It is. I accept what you said in the car on behalf of my people. I feel that when there is such a high price to pay and we show up anyway, that is badass. And, like, sometimes the more afraid you are if you are one who goes forth when it is right for you, the bigger the gap is there, the bigger the fear is, the bigger the pride. You get to have that you did it anyway and shook the whole time. Showing up and shaking is my new vibe.

Abby Wambach (67:43)

And also the beauty of the shaking is that answers Abby's question about the fear versus anxiety. Anxiety is the thing that gets. Gets trapped in us and keeps going and circling and circling and slowly killing us and making us do crazy. Fear is super helpful. Fear is what keeps us alive. Fear flows through us and comes out of us. So. So to be in fear, good, to be in anxiety, bad and true fear. That is an animalistic response to fear. If you see, like. If you're. If you're like on the savannah and you see like a lion come up and almost get a gazelle, and the gazelle is afraid, okay? And then the line gets something else. The gazelle will, just as afraid as it's just been, will stand up, literally shake. It shakes the fear out of itself. So it has been afraid. It processes the fear out of itself by shaking and then walks its ass on the savannah. What it doesn't do is live the next 10 months in anxiety, repurposing and perseverating on the lion attack. It shakes that shit out and it's on its way. And that is what we're going for in life and not the perpetual anxiety.

Glennon Doyle (69:13)

So maybe embodiment is just paying attention to physical sensation and not adding a story. Fear is what happens in our body. Anxiety is what happens when we link that fear to a story and we repeat it in our heads forever and ever. The story is what creates the devolvement. What the antelope doesn't do is sit for six and think about how lions have always fucked him over. And his father never gave him what he needed to do to get away. So in that moment, and then he.

Abby Wambach (69:45)

Sees a little cat and is like.

Glennon Doyle (69:46)

You look a little like a lion. I bet you're gonna fuck me over.

Abby Wambach (69:49)

Like, that's not, that's not what happens. The fear processes through, in and out. It does its job and then it goes on its way and so do you to do all of your other jobs. Anxiety comes in, cycles through us non stop distracts us from our job, leads us on fool's errands and keeps us in a perpetual loop of preparedness for something that doesn't ever come.

Glennon Doyle (70:18)

Yes. And, and that is. So I attach the story in the email, right? It's like the story is, I feel scared in my body. Don't want to do that. Then we go on days of creating stories about why no one ever protects my needs. We write emails, we write dissertations. That's all anxiety bullshit. All those people needed to know was no. Yes, that's a bodily sensation. I don't have to explain the why. I don't have to make up a story. I don't have to justify my needs. That's all in anxiety world. What's in embodiment world is my body doesn't like that. No. And when we say it simply like that, the rest of the world is like, thank you God, because I didn't want to deal with your family history today. Anyway, Pod squad, I love you guys so much. Let's try it. Let's try to stay out of anxiety in our bodily. In our bodily responses. Yes to this, no to this. No explanation. Okay? We love you. Hi everybody. Decades ago, when I decided to get sober, I was terrified of life without being numb, terrified of my feelings, terrified of myself. So for a few moments a day, I'd curl up in a roly poly ball on my bed, play an Indigo Girls song and let myself practice feeling one song. And day at a time, Amy and Emily walked me home to myself. I've been messily, flailingly, vibrantly, soberly alive for 25 years now. Artists who help us see ourselves and be ourselves, save lives.

Amanda (72:08)

To all the young queer people afraid to be themselves in this American moment, let me tell you what we tell our own children. We have faced times like this before. All that is happening is this. For the world order these guys dream of to take hold. They need the rest of us to submit by slowly going numb, by slowly going dead inside. Now listen to me. They are not scared of you because you are bad. They are scared of you because you are so alive. They are scared of you because you are free and freedom is contagious. They are scared of you because they are they need gray and you are neon. Hold on to your freedom, your aliveness, and to each other. Glennon and I and everyone in this room, we have your back. We love you. We will march with you, dance and love each other through this time. We can do hard things, and we will do them together.

Glennon Doyle (73:35)

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human forever. Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.