The Woman Who Spoke Truth To Trump: Bishop Budde

Summary

Summary of "The Woman Who Spoke Truth To Trump: Bishop Budde" – We Can Do Hard Things Podcast

Release Date: May 8, 2025

In this compelling episode of We Can Do Hard Things, hosts Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle engage in a profound conversation with Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy, the first woman elected as a bishop, who courageously addressed President Trump during his second inauguration sermon. The discussion delves deep into themes of bravery, empathy, unity, and the ongoing struggle for compassion in a polarized society.

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1. Bishop Budde’s Bold Stand for Unity and Mercy

The episode centers around Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy's daring sermon delivered at the Washington National Cathedral on January 21, the day after President Trump's second inauguration. Amidst a congregation that included Trump, Vice President Pence, and their families, Bishop Budde took a bold step to advocate for a more inclusive and compassionate vision of unity.

Notable Quote:

"[03:35] Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy: Let me make one final plea, Mr. President. Millions have put their trust in you... I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now."

In her 15-minute sermon, Bishop Budde emphasized that true unity is not about agreement or conformity but about serving the common good. She addressed vulnerable groups directly, including LGBTQ+ children, immigrants, and everyday workers, urging President Trump to show mercy and compassion.

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2. The Essence of Bravery: Embracing the Unknown

The hosts and Bishop Budde explore the nature of bravery, particularly in moments of high tension and uncertainty. They discuss how true courage often involves stepping into the unknown without a guaranteed outcome, much like jumping off a diving board into uncharted waters.

Notable Quote:

"[14:26] Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy: ...there are long seasons of preparation when you don't think anything especially dramatic is happening at all. Yet looking back in retrospect, you realize you were being prepared for this moment."

Bishop Budde shares her perspective on bravery as a lifelong learning process, where each courageous act builds resilience and paves the way for future acts of courage. She emphasizes the importance of staying true to one's identity and focusing on personal leadership responsibilities.

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3. Empathy Under Siege: The Battle Against Dehumanization

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the contemporary vilification of empathy. Bishop Budde explains how empathy is being labeled as a "sin" by certain factions, particularly those who benefit from dehumanizing others to maintain power structures.

Notable Quote:

"[38:26] Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy: ...the idea that empathy will get in our way because we'll start seeing the other people that we are treating right now as human beings."

The discussion highlights how empathy fosters human-to-human connections, which are essential for societal survival and cohesion. By attacking empathy, these forces aim to erode the very foundations of compassion and mutual respect that hold communities together.

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4. Grieving as Preparation: Transforming Sadness into Strength

The hosts and Bishop Budde delve into the role of grief and sadness in building inner strength and resilience. They discuss how experiencing and processing deep emotions is a critical part of preparing for meaningful action and sustaining long-term efforts toward justice and equality.

Notable Quote:

"[19:37] Amanda Doyle: ... the more sensitive people are, the more brokenhearted they are in the face of this. And then they think that's weakness."

Bishop Budde articulates that acknowledging and embracing sadness can lead to profound personal growth and a stronger commitment to positive change, viewing these emotions as integral to the human experience and essential for effective leadership.

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5. Building Communities of Resilience and Compassion

The conversation underscores the importance of fostering communities that prioritize resilience, compassion, and mutual support. Bishop Budde emphasizes the need for collective action and the nurturing of environments where individuals feel empowered to act bravely without bearing the burden of despair alone.

Notable Quote:

"[33:35] Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy: ... hate is too big a burden to bear. I'm going to choose love."

By choosing love and dignity over contempt and hatred, communities can create spaces where empathy thrives and individuals are encouraged to support one another in the face of adversity.

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6. The Ripple Effect of Courageous Acts

Bishop Budde and the hosts reflect on how individual acts of bravery contribute to broader social movements. They highlight historical examples where persistent, small acts of courage by individuals collectively led to significant societal transformations.

Notable Quote:

"[48:56] Unnamed Reverend: ... it's part of the human story, too. So to your point, we don't know, like, it may feel like we failed, but whatever we did might have had an impact on someone who then went on."

This segment emphasizes that even when immediate outcomes seem insignificant, the cumulative effect of countless brave actions can shape the future in meaningful ways.

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7. Embracing Hope and Collective Action

The episode concludes on a hopeful note, encouraging listeners to embrace empathy, engage in courageous actions, and build supportive communities. Bishop Budde's insights reinforce the idea that collective effort and unwavering compassion are crucial in overcoming societal challenges.

Notable Quote:

"[44:17] Unnamed Reverend: ... we're in all of this together or that we actually need the things that we're afraid of."

By maintaining openness and fostering connections, individuals can contribute to a more compassionate and unified society, effectively countering forces that seek to divide and dehumanize.

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Key Takeaways

• True Unity: Defined by serving the common good rather than conformity or agreement.
• Nature of Bravery: Involves stepping into the unknown and embracing failure as part of growth.
• Empathy as Strength: Essential for fostering human connections and resisting dehumanization.
• Role of Grief: Processing sadness is crucial for building resilience and sustaining action.
• Community Resilience: Building supportive and compassionate communities enhances collective strength.
• Cumulative Impact: Individual acts of courage contribute to broader social change.
• Hope and Collective Action: Embracing empathy and unity is vital for overcoming societal challenges.

This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of empathy, bravery, and collective action in navigating and transforming a world filled with hard things. Bishop Budde's courageous stand exemplifies the transformative power of speaking truth to power and advocating for a more inclusive and compassionate society.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

On January 21, the day after President Trump's second inauguration, President Trump, Vice President Vance and their wives sat in the front row of Washington National Cathedral, flanked by their families and hundreds of supporters for the traditional post inauguration prayer service. Presiding over the service and delivering the sermon was the Right Reverend Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy, the first woman elected to that position. She stood in the pulpit and gave a 15 minute sermon on unity. Not, as she said, a unity of agreement or conformity or victory or passivity, but a unity that serves the common good. That is a threshold requirement for people to live together in a free society. Then, in two minutes of breathtaking bravery before the 1000 attendees and millions watching on television around the globe, she locked eyes.

[Amanda Doyle]

We're all going to be crying before this. Smart is through she locked eyes with.

[Abby Wambach]

The most powerful man on earth, addressed him personally, and spoke a plea of such long, absent moral clarity, leadership, and courage that it was like staring straight into the sun. Like a kid who stands up to a bully on a playground, stepping between the bully and her friends to take the hits so her friends might not have to. Let's listen.

[Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy]

Let me make One final plea, Mr. President. Millions have put their trust in you. And as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God. In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now. There are gay, lesbian, and transgender children in Democratic, Republican, and independent families, some.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Who fear for their lives.

[Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy]

And the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meat packing plants, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals. They may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbors. They are faithful members of our churches and mosques, synagogues and temples. I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away and that you help those who are fleeing war zones and persecution in their own lands to find compassion and welcome here. Our God teaches us that we are to be merciful to the stranger, for we were all once strangers in this land.

[Abby Wambach]

We have a lot to learn from you, Reverend Buddy, and we are so thankful that you are here.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Thank you. It's good to be here. Really honored to meet you, the three of you. Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

We just got to gather ourselves for a second.

[Abby Wambach]

And that's the podcast. Thank you so much.

[Amanda Doyle]

Get her book.

[Glennon Doyle]

Geez, Louise.

[Abby Wambach]

I think. I mean, you spoke that day to so many of us who feel terrified and angry and exhausted and who feel abandoned, frankly, by leadership, wondering where it is. And I think most people right now, we're asking ourselves, we're asking each other, like, what are we gonna do? What are we actually gonna do? And how are we gonna get through it? So it feels like the what and the how are both so important. And I just wonder if you could share with us the way that you're thinking about your what and your how for this time.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Well, every day I think about it, and with the same range of emotions that you described, and a few besides, I have learned in my life, I'm in my 60s now, that it's helpful for me to know my lane, you know, and my Identity and my work, and to stay there and to speak from there as clearly as I can and not try to venture into other realms where I don't have the same grounding and knowledge base, all of those relationships and all of those things. And so I feel that my what and my how are rooted in the leadership responsibilities and practices that I have. And so in that instance, I mean, obviously I have this periodic opportunity to speak to elected officials. It doesn't happen very often, by the way. This is not my day job, but it happened, you know, admit it happens, and I've had some practice at it, so I know kind of what that's like. But just like anytime you're standing in front of a group of people who are experiencing the whole range of emotions, which I know all of you have done, it's trying to get a sense of, okay, what is the task in that moment? Other things you mentioned, standing with my friends. I mean, there is something about acknowledging the full range of humanity that is present in this country, and not to mention the world, and to not only protect or. Or speak up for, but to encourage, support, celebrate the richness of human experience and of legitimacy. And there are just so many ways in what Tim Shriver and others have called this culture of contempt, where we just are practicing dehumanization, right? And when that comes from the highest levels of power, it just gives everybody permission to do that. And so to not only add another or to speak or to live out another alternative, but to try and encourage a kind of human discourse and relationship where we don't necessarily have to see the world the same way, but we can all agree that we all belong to this world, right? That we're all fellow humans in this blessed space we call life, and that we don't have the right to deny anyone else their rightful place, to be fully themselves. And then the rest of my job and the rest of my why is to build up communities of resilience, communities of, in my case, communities of faith that are living out the best of the. The principles of the gospel of Jesus, but those that translate into building up the common good wherever we find ourselves. So that's my why, or that's my how, my what. Everybody has their own place and their own calling, and. And part of what I'm hoping is that we can honor that in each other and encourage each other in that really sacred work.

[Abby Wambach]

You teach so much about. I mean, your book is how we learn to be brave. Like, it is not something that you're born with. There are not Brave people and unbrave people. But there are people who have learned for people who now would like to be brave in this moment. Where do we start? In whatever lane we're in. If we're a teacher, if we're a parent, if we're a community member, wherever we are. What is the first step? What is the texture? How do we know we're on the path of that?

[Unnamed Reverend]

Right, Right. Such a good question. I think each one of us can look back and remember times when we were brave in the past. Right. And even if we're like 4 years old, we can remember when we, you know, did something for the first time. That's what I love about just the story of human development, is that you just see it lived out, that we all have to do things we've never done before, from the earliest we can remember. So there's that just kind of taking stock of where we have been brave in the past and what it feels like. You know, Glenn and I've been reading your book Untamed, and not only the stories that you tell about yourself, but about your children. Those moments when you can watch them and they're. They're making their choices and they're not the same choices. Right. So what's the choice in one situation for one person that is courage or bravery? Maybe something completely different for another. So it's hard to be formulaic about it, but I think some of the common denominators are that it's rooted in an experience that either begins in a feeling of building internal crisis, like something is moving us that has a kind of crisis element to it, to the point where we can't stay where we are anymore in whatever form, or we can't stay in a place of indecision. But we have to get to that readiness point, and it's not comfortable, or the other side is. Something beckons us from afar that just. You just feel like it has your name on it. And you just know that you're meant to start walking toward that. So those are just two way that, you know, something is stirring. And then the other thing that I turn to. I learn most things by imitating other people, you know, or watching other people that I admire and maybe even envy a little bit, because I think envy even is a way of our inner life telling us that there's something in us that's undeveloped. Yes. You know, there are a lot of things, amazing things that people do that I admire, but it doesn't knock me off my game one bit. But every once in A while. It's like, darn, that's really amazing. And that actually is something in me that's saying, why aren't you paying attention to that inside yourself? Right? So there's. There are all kinds of inner cues, and then I think the other. Which we need to think about a lot, and maybe those of you who have opinions about this, when we know that something's not right around us, and as you said, it's being treated as normal, Right. When things are being normalized, that we have some kind of moral compass that says, you know what? That is just not right. You know? And we teach our children with stories like, the emperor has no clothes. Right? I mean, what is anybody going to say? That this guy has no clothes on? Is anyone going to do something? And there is. There is something about that that says, like, I can't save the world, but I can do one thing, and why the heck am I not doing that? Right? And so there's a kind of, I don't know, a motivation to at least do something. Yeah. I don't know. So there's some. Those are some of the avenues that. That I think of.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that what you're talking about in terms of bravery, I think that there's a step that we don't necessarily really dive deep into, and it's the moment of jumping off into the unknown, into the abyss. Right. And I think that this is one of the moments, at least in my life, and watching you up in the pulpit speaking your truth to power, you had to let go and have no idea what is on the other side. And I'd like to explore that a little bit. Like, where does that live within you? And how do you take that leap of faith in order to prove the bravery within yourself exists?

[Unnamed Reverend]

Well, the image I have is like just standing at the edge of a diving board, right? And at some point you're either going to have to go back down the ladder or you're going to have to jump. Right? And I. I find it terrifying every time. So it's not like, you know, it gets easier with time. I think it actually, in some ways, it doesn't change or maybe even gets harder. I don't know. So there's that. There is that sense of sometimes life pushes you, right? Like, you really. I mean, at least in my experience, I don't really feel like I have a choice. It's just what presents itself. And. And there's even. And I write about this a little bit in the book, there's even a sense of like you're not really thinking anymore. You're moving more by muscle memory or instinct or just the reality of the moment. So it could be any number of those things. Though I do believe, and I think your lives have been a testimony to this as well. There are long seasons of preparation when you don't think anything especially dramatic is happening at all. And yet looking back in retrospect, it's like, oh, actually I was being prepared for this. This wasn't just a happenstance thing. And part of the preparation is, is failing a lot at trying brave things and getting back up and realizing it didn't kill you to to try something big and fail. And in some ways you'd rather fail at trying the thing than living with yourself. And you also know that I know that feeling too. It's like when you let the moment pass and you didn't do anything, it that feels really worst. Like that that's not a place I want to stay in. So there are all kinds of things that lead up to and give us opportunities to practice this. That's why I like the learning part, because this is a lifelong learning and if we focus too much on those moments, as important as they are, we miss the arc of all the things that lead up to it. And then frankly, the things that come after Foreign.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Just for the first time that I've ever seen them this way. Blank, bawling, confused. Just sitting and crying together.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Which everyone separately feels. I can feel a panic in each person. That's why do I not know what to do? I always know what to do. Why do I not know what to do? But is it possible that sadness and sitting in brokenheartedness is part of the preparation? Because it's like the more sensitive people are, the more brokenhearted they are in the face of this. And then they think that's weakness. But to me, it feels like the people that have the greatest sadness right now are the ones we need eventually the most. It's like the sadness inside is the difference. It's the gap between what we know could be and what we're seeing is, and the deeper your sadness is, it's because you have that vision. And so sometimes I feel like worthless in my sadness. And then usually there comes a moment where I find myself speaking or doing, and I can always look back and think, oh, my God, that was the wilderness. For me, that Sadness was the 40 days in the desert. Or if people are sad right now, they could just be preparing.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Thank you for that. There's no shortcut to that grieving process in a true death experience. Right? And I think we are. You know, I feel that. And the not knowing and frankly, the helplessness that one feels in the darkest hours. You know, there's this line where. In the line in the Gospels where Jesus is basically facing. And I can't remember who he's facing. Pontius Pilate. Somebody who has all the power, right? Somebody who has all the power. And he's about to die. And he basically says something like, this is when darkness rules, right? This is the hour when darkness rules. And he's. It's like. And he didn't. And he didn't fight it. You know, it's like he just didn't fight it. And it feels, you know, you could say, well, that's passivity. And, well, maybe. But it also could be surrender in that moment, to live through that and wait for the. The other forces of the universe represented by the resurrection that will not allow evil to have the final word. I mean, that. I mean, that's a faith statement. I say that as a. As a believing Christian, but I think that that human mythology, that's what keeps our species going, which is like the worst thing that happens will not have the final say. And so as. As people, I mean, that's what faith is. I mean, faith isn't like things are going to turn out okay. Faith is the worst thing that can happen. And if you still have breath inside you, you're going to get up and be part of the solution. And. But while the destruction is happening, which man, frankly, we're still living in it, right? We are living in a time of destruction that is being celebrated, right? That is being celebrated and that is being controlled by significant forces of allying forces that will benefit or they will benefit from a complete reorganization of our society. And so hats off to all of them, right? That's what they believe. But we're watching the fallout and the closer, as you said, Glennon, the closest we are to that, the grief of that, and then also all the things that we thought would stop. It didn't. Right. And there's some, obviously lots of thoughts of what could we have done differently? Why did, you know what happened? If we're honest, like, what mistakes did we make? I mean, all those things that you, you just have to go through. And in the end, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what will happen next, but I'm determined. I do believe. And that's. I think one of the reasons why the sermon resonated the way it did is because it was talking about something that wasn't a foreign concept. Right. I mean, frankly, it's not that different a sermon that you would have heard in, like, a lot of churches. But just to say, look, you know what, there are some things that we know are true and just saying them, it's like, you know what? These are foundational principles. These are not some radical leftist, anti Trump woke idea. This is like pretty mainstream compassion, right? The pillars of, of human decency. So that gives me some sense of like, all right, well, at least there's something to be said for being that kind of a pillar. Right. Like, we're not going to let some of these things go and we have to be aware that there's a whole new future out there that we cannot see. And I don't know how it's going to go, but I'm going to be a person till my last breath. Particularly now, since I've got so many people coming up behind me. I'm not, I'm not going to ask people to carry my despair or my cynicism for me. Right. Like, I'm going to carry whatever I have to carry, I'll carry for myself, but I'm not going to ask those coming up behind me to carry it for me because I want them to have as much power and wind in their sails as they can because, frankly, they've got the heavier lift.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, they do.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's good.

[Abby Wambach]

Say more about that. I've never heard anyone say that. What does it look like to make other people carry your despair and grief?

[Unnamed Reverend]

Well, I mean. Well, it's like, you know, it's just so easy to be cynical, right? It's just so easy to be cynical and to be despondent. And I'm not saying that. I'm not. And we all need places like your kitchen table where we can just sob and cry and just do that. Right? But I'm not going to do that in front of my kids. My kids are in their 30s. I'm not going to do that in front of them. I mean, I might acknowledge that I'm really sad, but. And I'm not going to lie to them, but I'm also not to ask them to take care of me in that right. I want to self regulate to such a degree that I have to take that to my God, to my prayer, to my inner circle of friends and support. I'm not saying I'm denying it because I'm not. But when I'm outwardly focused and think what good can I do in the world? I'm going to lean toward hope and empowerment and clear eyed what's happening, but never giving way to the contempt that's coming toward us. Like, I'm not going there. I am not going there. I don't know if you've been following Tim Shriver and all of his work around dignity and the dignity index and all that, but for me that was just such a beautiful way to express. Look, we're all on this spectrum and we can all treat one another with varying degrees of dignity or varying degrees of contempt. And it's easy to do. So why not practice dignity? Why not practice compassion and respect even when hatred is coming toward you? Now, not everybody can do that. I sure as heck can't do it all the time. But as an aspirational way to live, as Dr. King said, hate is too big a burden to bear. I'm going to choose love.

[Amanda Doyle]

And it doesn't work to dehumanize other people because they are dehumanizing us. I've tried. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Reverend]

It's, it's as, as a tactic, it's not very effective. It might feel good for a minute, but yeah. And satire has its place. I do love a good joke, but I have to be careful. And again, like I'm a public figure so I need to be really as you want to be really careful, you know, because, and I don't mean just like in front of the microphones in the camera, but like I'm greeting people in church on Sunday and if I look at people in a, in an off color, you know, just because I'm distracted, they can interpret that. It's like, oh my gosh, she's mad at me.

[Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy]

So I just, I think there is.

[Unnamed Reverend]

You learn some sort of self regulation to say I'm not going to ask. To get back to your question, I'm not going to ask you to carry my inner work for me. I'm actually going to take responsibility for that myself as best I can so that I Can focus on you and how you're doing. Right. And how we're doing together.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, as a tactic, too, that posture towards the world. Like, I think that's why I listened to that part of your speech. I don't know, 50 times. But it was so hard for me to actually watch it, to look at you. And I think there was something so different because there was no indignation. You weren't inflamed. You were speaking utterly unarmed of anger or outrage. You were speaking fearlessly, but about the thing you feared the most. And I couldn't handle that level of. Because I think for so many of us, the outrage is a shield. The anger, the righteousness, the. You're horrible and I know better. Is some kind of armament. But there was something so pure. Pure about what you were doing that I was like, oh, no, Is that the way.

[Amanda Doyle]

Give us another way, Reverend, to do that.

[Abby Wambach]

It seemed like the hardest thing on the planet because I can be, you.

[Amanda Doyle]

Know, snarky to say, make a mockery.

[Abby Wambach]

Of you all day.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

But do you think there's something about that as, like, an actual way where we just do have to talk about our biggest fears and we have to be as sad as we are instead of being as mad as we are?

[Unnamed Reverend]

Well, I don't want to imply that anger doesn't have a place. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Unnamed Reverend]

And I don't want to imply that even contempt at its, you know, in some places may be the appropriate response. So I hate to generalize too much, and it's good to have a broad repertoire of responses so that you're not only, you know, you've got more than one approach that you can bring to a given moment. Right. Because sometimes other things are called for. So I guess I would start there. In that moment, I was mindful of two things, and I, you know, of course, I've been paying attention to the campaign and to all of the rhetoric and all of that, but I actually watched every second of the inauguration. On Inauguration Day. First of all, I watched all the religious leaders kind of. With the exception of Cardinal Dolan, who. Who was kind of strong and forthright, but everybody else just kind of fawned over the President and were praying for him and asking God to protect him and his family for this mission that he'd been called to, all of which was. It was all right, but there was no. It was. It was subservient. It was. I'm not the right word. It was. It was assuming as. As the president himself was assuming that God had ordained the president for this moment. Right. That God had called him to this moment and that everything that he thought and everything that he did was God inspired. That was the feeling that you got.

[Abby Wambach]

It was like in 2020 when you said, he has used sacred symbols to cloak himself in the mantle of spiritual authority.

[Unnamed Reverend]

That's exactly what it was. And so that was all happening. And then he got up and spoke, and it was like he was on the campaign trail. It was the same casting of just blanket statements of people that are the people who are with us and the people who are against us, the people that are dangerous to us, and we know who they are. And that's when I realized. I mean, I had been thinking about it, you know, for days, but that's when I realized that I needed to say something about the people who were not included in that vision of unity. And in part because these aren't abstractions to me, These are people that I know and love. These are people in the congregations I serve who are feeling all the things that I was trying to evoke and also to say some things that, like, so there were a thousand people or so in the cathedral. Mostly, I'm guessing, mostly supporters. The president, you know, so there. There had to have been a parent of a trans kid in that congregation. Right? There just had to be. I mean, numerically, there had to be. Right. Or trans themselves. Right. Not to mention gay and lesbian, of course. But, I mean, just in terms of the percentages and the people who know, people who are immigrants in this country, and they know for a fact that how they're being described is not true. Right? So, like, I was. I mean, I was just, like, saying, we know this is not true. And then the mercy piece was just simply to. It's a biblical concept, and it's usually an acknowledgment. You offer mercy when you are in a position to do so to someone who is in need of mercy. But there is a reciprocal understanding that every one of us stands in need of mercy all the time under the eyes of God. And that there are times when I may be in a position to show mercy to someone else, but tomorrow it's going to be me. And so it isn't something that is just a sign of someone's power, but it's a sign of our mutuality as human beings. And I think that those were the things I was trying to convey.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's a hopeful, to me, form of courage. When you think about what courage has been sort of spun as over the last decades, as always having the right quip or always. It's very intellectual. It's very. Having the right take. Having the right. And it is amazing to be in a moment where actually. And maybe hopeful for pod squatters listening that. But we're in a moment where it is just courageous to speak of love. It is courageous to speak of us all being human. We are in a time where it was easy. You can see the change. Like everybody was doing it when it was easy, when there was a pride flag on every Old Navy. Now it is brave in your spaces. You don't have to.

[Unnamed Reverend]

That's right.

[Amanda Doyle]

You don't have to be the smartest, most informed, witty take on everything. You can just continue to assert love, to remind people that there is no us in them. That in itself is a act of courage right now.

[Unnamed Reverend]

That's really well said and I think it's what's going to turn things around or one of the things. So we. A lot of things. A couple of. And I think in some ways that's how so many of our real pivotal moments of social change have happened. When we finally begin to see a group of people that we thought were in some way not of us, that they are of us or that we are of them, or however that works, you know, like it's that human to human connection. And in a time when someone or a whole group of someone's humanity is being treated with disregard and contempt to simply say no or to say yes, yes, they are. So I think that's. It's a really interesting. And we're seeing. I mean, of course, obviously we're just seeing this whole huge swing in the country toward a. Moving away from so many of the things that we fought so hard for. And yet there are people that are going to stand strong. And I think that that's part of the moment. It's part of the moment we're called to now.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

It's interesting to me to see what particularly is being villainized because it's so clear that that is what's most dangerous to what they're trying to build. And it was wild to me. But makes total sense that a slew of the attacks on you and they were from pundits and elected leaders and people of the church.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

That they said that you were an enemy of God because of, quote, the sin of empathy. And this sin of empathy. There is a whole movement around and books about the sin of empathy. What is so dangerous to them about empathy that they have to call it evil? And what is it to you? Because it's something big that they need to shut down.

[Amanda Doyle]

So good.

[Unnamed Reverend]

I am just beginning to enter into that whole worldview. I was not aware of it. And you're right. I mean, I think Elon Musk was just recently quoted as saying something about it was like the suicide side of Western civilization. And the idea that our compassion or our ability to I. To. I think it's basically. But I think they're confusing empathy with compassion, which is an easy thing to do. I do it all the time. But the idea that.

[Abby Wambach]

Bless their hearts.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah. Our feelings, our feelings, our feelings of wanting to be kind and good and caring might cloud our judgment. And what we need now is judgment. And what we need now is judgment to fill in the blank because we really need to close the borders because otherwise we're going to lose our identity as a country. Otherwise we are going to allow this, you know, fill in the blank. We're going to, you know, just all these horrible things are going to happen if we don't use our judgment. Which means right now we have to be callous as hell because what we have to do is destroy a lot of things so we can rebuild them. I mean, that is the strategy. It's just a, it's just a crash and burn strategy. We're going to mess as many things up as possible so that we can rebuild into something else. And empathy will get in our way because we'll start seeing the other people that we are treating right now as human beings. And more than that, we could imagine ourselves in their shoes. Because I think that is the ultimate definition of empathy is like, I not only have compassion for you, but I actually can see myself in you. And so seeing the world through your eyes would be a way for me to understand that I, I could be there too. And so it's a, it's a kind of identification that is human to human. And, and it has, I think it has real survival overtones to it. I mean, I think we. Evolution, I mean, I think it, it was a key part of human evolution. Not only to have the survival of the fittest. But actually, no, we have to work together. We have to come together in kinship and family, and we have to have affection for each other and care for each other and look out for each other. I mean, those are. Those are qualities that don't necessarily make you the king of the jungle, but it might let your community survive. Right. So I am actually dumbfounded by, you know, when someone. The whole sin of empathy. So I don't know about you, but I have to take some of these ideas in pretty small doses, otherwise I can really fall into some despair. And. But I try to stay as engaged as I can so that I can understand enough to understand how it might speak to someone else. Like, why is that? Why does that have appeal?

[Amanda Doyle]

It makes sense. They're right. They just have their own religion. I mean, everybody has a religion. If your religion is capitalism based on white supremacy and patriarchy, you are correct that the sin of your religion, what would throw it all off is empathy. Empathy would be the one thing you need people not to have because that would slow down the building of your religion, because you would start asking questions and you would start caring for each other and you would not have, oh, the end justifies all the means. And that's why when we say over and over again, staying human is so important, it's not just a line in a poem. It's, no, no, no. Everything that's human to us is what is being squashed. I mean, that's. Of course they're afraid of empathetic people. Empathetic people are the thing that will get in their way. Of course they're afraid of queerness. Queerness is a sign of aliveness. It's proof of freedom, and freedom is contagious. So of course you would have to squash queerness. Queerness in itself is nonconformity. And in order for this world order of capitalism, patriarchy, misogyny, for these guys to build, they have to create submission based on a slow deadening, a slow numbing of everything that makes us human. So anything that is too human, you will see squashed with legislation, squashed with fear, squashed with whatever's being squashed, you know, is your symbol to hold on to for dear life.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, yes. And they say empathy, this whole train of thought is empathy is toxic. It is the opposite of truth. Because when you're looking out at the world and you say, that's not right, because I know it, because I feel it, because I'm a human and I'm connected to that person, they have to say that's the opposite of truth. Because the only thing that is true about humanity at its deepest core is that we are connected and we are each other and we can see each other. So they have to attack that. Right. So for me, it's very hopeful because it's like they know that their take is against the laws of humanity. They know that we are built on a basis of empathy, so they have to attack that. So all we have to do is hold so tight to that, that that worldview can't attach itself to us because it's either their truth that they're telling us or the higher truth of our humanity that we know at our core is true.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah, I see it as a spectrum of thinking that we are all susceptible to, so.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, totally.

[Unnamed Reverend]

You know, so I don't. And you can look at different faces of, you know, in your own life or in history or in the example of. Of communities that, you know, where for whatever reason, there were people or there were things that were just not allowed in. Right. Just not allowed in because of the danger of that. And legislation is such a great example of it because you just keep on legislating and legislating, and it just. Like you were saying, Glenn, the freedom just keeps on pushing up against it, like it doesn't resolve anything because there's just. There's. That has to go somewhere. So I do wonder about it. I also wonder, like, how if you think about just how ideas take hold in a society, ideas that we think are life giving or those that are life denying, there's a social element to it, they start off small, and then they have this ability to attract and to become mainstream and, you know, and however you look at it, and I find that fascinating, too, because a lot of that has to do with relationships. Relationships and just sort of the power of, like we're on a podcast now, which has become the medium where most people get their views of the world, Right. And so you just think about how people. What kind of conversations they're allowing into their heads. Right. What kind of worldview are we informed by what. What resonates, all of those things that can. Can move us in one direction or another. And I'm kind of interested in how we can move the needle. Like, I don't think it'll take. We don't have to change everybody's way of seeing the world, but if we can change, we can just open up the possibilities and remind people that. That we're in all of this together or that we actually need the things that we're afraid of. I don't know, maybe that's a little too optimistic. But I, I don't know what else to do but to just stay in, in a place of openness to connection and clarity about some fundamental truths that have been handed down by the generations that teach us to love God, love neighbor, love ourselves, have compassion. I mean, do justice. Those things that kind of just are enshrined in our most sacred and common aspirational values and the people that we would like our children to spend time with, you know, I mean, if you just. Or that as a kid, if you can remember, like, who are the people that you wanted to hang out with and they were the people that brought you life. Right. Didn't shut you down. And so, yeah, it's tough to know. It's tough to know what, when you're in the thick of it, what's going to shift the momentum in a more life affirming direction when it feels like a lot of that is being challenged. But I'm really, I'm trying to keep my eyes open and ears to the ground and listening for the places where people are gathering and finding hope. Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's so interesting to think about that moment, you know, thinking about you in that moment in the pulpit as being a moment where you're jumping off the diving board and you don't know what's gonna happen after. I always think about you afterwards, like back, whatever backstage of church is going, oh, whoa, like what's about to happen? She's like, three, two, one. Yeah, I know that feeling. On a lower level of like, okay, it takes so much that you don't even know is happening beforehand till you get to that moment and then you do the moment. But the wild thing about jumping off into the unknown is you are creating a new known. It's so terrifying because you are creating a new future that would not have been there had you not have done that one brave thing. It's like, yeah, you're jumping off a diving board because there's no path. But the second you speak those words in the pulpit, I see a path that wasn't there before.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yes, well, and you talk about that in your book. I mean, you've done that a couple of times yourself, Ms. Doyle. And that's part of where we learn. Right? Courage is contagious. Right? You read about, that's why you read about it, that's why you talk about it. And you know, I was, I forget when in the mix of all of this, as I was. It was leading up to the day I heard that the. You know, that the Catholic bishops in California just came out with this incredibly strong statement against the proposed immigration policies of the then, you know, president elected. And I thought, yeah, they're. They're doing it, right? They're doing it. You know, I mean, it's like, okay, I want to be with them. Right. They were like, exactly what you were saying. They created a path. They said it. And I. I believe that. And I, you know, if I could. I think that's what I want to do.

[Abby Wambach]

Do.

[Unnamed Reverend]

And so there is that sense of. And maybe that's what we're all waiting for in our tears around the kitchen table. We're all waiting for those. Okay. We watched the moments of time where we see people doing something brave and. And it's like, oh, there it is. Yeah, I think I'll do that too. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great.

[Abby Wambach]

It's why all the little things matter.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Is because there is. Is. This is like, well noted in movements across the world that it's the perception that other people are not with you and that you are alone in it. And even when people are told that. That nothing else changes except the perception that others feel like you, and movements flip so your flag in front might seem like nothing. And it is signaling to people that there are people like you and that they can. Tiny bits of embolding matter.

[Unnamed Reverend]

And who knows? I mean, there have been times in our history where there just wasn't any clear movement toward whatever justice or freedom people were longing for. But there were these. The struggle was kept alive. Right? Torch by torch, person by person. And that you can look back and you can see the path, and you could see how people would go to their grave never knowing if what they fought for would ever come to fruition. Right. I mean, that's just part of our human story, and we don't know where we are ever in the arc of anything that we're working toward. Right. I've lived long enough to see some of the things that I never thought would happen happen, and I praise God for that. But I also may be living at a time now where I'm just keeping a few things going, and I'm gonna hand them on to the next generation, and they're gonna take it up. And that. That is just part of the human story, too. So to your point, we don't know, like, it may feel like we failed, but whatever we did might have had an impact on someone who then went on. Who then goes on to do the thing that we had hoped to see realized, but we weren't the ones.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that that's a really important thing that you just said, which is causing so many awesome, amazing artists and activists to come to our house. It's the non acceptance of failure that feels like it's the heaviest weight. It's. Honestly, it is, you know, because it does feel like this gigantic failure. But if you think about it from the bigger, like, zoom out, let's look at it from a longer arc and this might be a blip. This might in fact feel and be a failure.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But we have to say, okay, this is what's happening before we can actually get up, dust ourselves off and move forward and make that next brave leap into the unknown. But it's. I think that there's a lot of us that are feeling a little bit like the lack of acceptance of the perception of failure.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, we didn't even. I mean, to hear Reverend Buddy say that she watched the entire inauguration. What went into my mind was the women who watched the crucifixion. And since they witnessed it, since they stayed, since they said, I will be here through the time of despair, they were the ones who got to be with Jesus at the resurrection. The witnessing of the reality of the pain is part. We always say, first the pain, then the waiting, then the rising. And we're in a rhythm right now. And when you said the struggle. The struggle, it's the first time I've considered the connection between, you know, what people keep saying to me now is I'm really struggling.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And the idea that the personal struggle when you're in your bedroom, when you're in your bathtub. I'm often in my bedroom, I bath, struggling. But what if that's part of the struggle? What if the private struggle is part of the struggle? Right. That like there are different phases and all of it is part. Our brokenheartedness inside our homes becomes our power outside of our homes.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Right, Right. It's beautiful. One of my favorite just images when you're talking about the crucifixion resurrection is the fact that after Jesus died and he's put in the whatever, the tomb was probably a cave and then everybody was home and he goes to bed. Right. And then the women get up before dawn to make their way to prepare his body. Right. And so they're walking toward this thing and they don't know that they're going to witness something that, you know, they're walking, thinking he's still dead. They're walking thinking that everything is still the way it is. But. But the fact that they got up and walked in the dark is as much a part of the story as Jesus rising from the tomb. You know, I mean, it's like they were rising too, Right. They just didn't know it because they were still in the throes. But the fact that they got up and they started walking and maybe that, you know, that sense of like. Okay, I don't know if. Abby, when you're saying the non acceptance of failure, did you mean that as a. We're struggling to accept something that we have to accept or we're not accepting it because, darn it, we're gonna find another way.

[Glennon Doyle]

Both.

[Unnamed Reverend]

What were you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Both. As an athlete, you know, I always watched if I was in a final and lost. I always watch them raise that trophy. And it's an important humbling.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And a humility that we have to embody and say, we didn't win this.

[Unnamed Reverend]

One, didn't win this one.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that's the truth. And in order to move forward, you got to accept that, I think.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Yeah. Yeah. It's well said. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I can't really believe that you were writing this book before this moment. That is another thing that God is so weird at. Just like, I know having you make something that will be the most necessary thing on earth and you don't even know why while you're writing it. But your book has accompanied me through many bathtub struggling afternoons, and it's so beautiful and so necessary, and I'm so grateful for it. And I'm so deeply grateful for you. Millions of us are. We just want to walk in the dark with you. So thank you.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Thank you. It's been a real honor and a joy to be with you all. I wish you every blessing and the good work, work, amazing work that you're doing, bringing so many people together in a community of love and joy and courage. Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

The book is How We Learn to Be Brave, which was very much of a delight to me because as soon as I saw your sermon, I was like, how do we learn to be brave?

[Unnamed Reverend]

From her.

[Abby Wambach]

And then I googled you and you had a book called How We Learned to Be Brave. So good call on that. I also am delighted because you are making a young adults version.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

Of how we Learn to Be Brave. Right.

[Unnamed Reverend]

And a childhood version.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, thank God.

[Unnamed Reverend]

I'm so thrilled. I'm so thrilled. Yeah, we're working on them now. The young adult will come out October October and the hardcover children's book, which is called I can do brave Things, or it might be called, the other title that we're working on is did you know that you could learn to be brave? So we're trying, we're playing with it, but it's that same idea. You know kids, they have to be brave every day.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's right, they do.

[Unnamed Reverend]

So anyway, thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

And the good thing is those kids are born with empathy. It is a developmental thing. So as long as they keep that going, they're good.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Well, bless you all. Thank you so much.

[Amanda Doyle]

Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you so much.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bye, Podsquad.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you so much.

[Unnamed Reverend]

Bye.

[Abby Wambach]

Bye.

[Amanda Doyle]

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the we can do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.