(BEST OF) Tracee Ellis Ross: Holding On to Joy In Hard Times

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Tracee Ellis Ross: Holding On to Joy In Hard Times

Host: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Tracee Ellis Ross
Date: March 17, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This rich, beautifully open conversation explores how to hold on to joy and freedom amid life’s hardships, with award-winning actress and producer Tracee Ellis Ross as a guiding “lighthouse.” The Pod Squad—Glennon, Abby, and Amanda—invite Tracee (a self-described “cauldron sister”) to share her wisdom on authentic living, chosen family, creative expression, and the complexities of womanhood, aging, and self-acceptance.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Cauldron Theory” and Chosen Family

• Tracee shares her belief that some souls are made together in a cauldron and scattered throughout the world, destined to recognize one another.
  • “You meet someone and you’re like, oh, we’re from the same soup.” (Tracee, 07:15)
• This framework explains the deep, almost inexplicable bond Tracee feels with certain people and validates the importance of chosen family.
• The group reminisces about Tracee’s 50th birthday party, described as “a cauldron of your people,” celebrating how she draws together beloved friends as a barnacle would—clinging fiercely, not as a burden, but as a testament to enduring connection and interdependence.

2. Rejecting Hustle Culture, Embracing Joy and Authenticity

• Amanda introduces the idea of seeking depth and connection without falling prey to hustle culture.
• Tracee discusses rejecting cultural narratives—especially those placed upon women and Black women—that equate worth with being “chosen” or fulfilling prescribed roles.
  • “My job as a woman is to learn to be choosable, having nothing to do with who I am… but really is more about how I might be seen so that I might be chosen so that my life could mean something as a chosen woman.” (Tracee, 15:36)

3. The Role of Friendship, Vulnerability, and Aftercare

• Tracee details her practices for tending to mental health and the “dangerous neighborhood” of her own mind, especially after emotionally risky experiences (“risk hangover”).
  • “I’m a girl that jumps off the cliff… and then I land and I’m like, what the fuck did I just do?... And then everything’s colored by the wrong information.” (Tracee, 24:25)
• She emphasizes the importance of calling friends when vulnerable, as well as rituals and therapy.
  • “Friendship has been the biggest. And the willingness to be completely transparent and to be able to call people when I am on the floor, whether it’s metaphorically or physically.” (Tracee, 21:28)
• After significant events, like her 50th birthday, Tracee plans deliberate aftercare and community connection.

4. Self-Acceptance and Making Peace with Not Being Everyone’s ‘Cup of Tea’

• Tracee shares her lifelong tension between longing for universal approval and accepting that her true self may not be for everyone.
  • “Maybe you’re just not everyone’s cup of tea... I want to be everybody’s cup of tea. It’s like, okay but maybe you’re not.” (Tracee, 60:59)
• She recounts making a list of what she likes about herself—many of which are the same attributes that can be “difficult for people.”
  • “I have a larger container now to hold myself. And I know myself really well. And it’s taken a lot of time to have the courage to actually live my life as that person.” (Tracee, 62:55)

5. Creative Expression and Clothing as Self-Expression

• Tracee’s love for clothes is rooted in watching her mother (Diana Ross) use fashion as both transformation and agency. Clothing evolved from armor against racism to a celebration of self.
  • “It’s one of the ways I wear my insides on my outside.” (Tracee, 32:09)
  • “It’s not ‘look at me,’ it’s ‘this is me.’” (Tracee, 31:42)
• She describes the joy of wearing her mother’s dress at her birthday and the symbolic power of singing “I’m 50 and I’m free.”
  • “To actually be in one of those dresses and… sing her song, and change that line to 50, I’m 50 and I’m free. That was just kind of magical.” (Tracee, 41:48)

6. Redefining Fertility, Motherhood, and Womanhood

• Tracee reflects on entering perimenopause, grappling with society’s narrow definitions of womanhood and fertility.
  • “Is it my fertility leaving me? Is it my womanhood? Or is it really neither?” (Tracee, 53:48)
  • “I feel fertile with creativity, full of power, more and more a woman than I’ve ever been. And yet that power that I was told I must use was not used. A power.”
• She expresses gratitude for the “expansion around gender” happening now, crediting the trans community with unlocking new understanding.

7. Joy, Heartbreak, and Making Room for Both

• Tracee and the Pod Squad share the reality that joy and pain often coexist.
  • “I can be really productive and doing really well and also, like, heartbroken.” (Tracee, 46:56)
• The conversation returns repeatedly to gentleness and self-forgiveness—a throughline for resilience.
  • “One of my friends always says, give yourself a thousand breaks, and when those are done, give yourself a thousand more.” (Tracee, 26:06,\ 52:45)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Not Abandoning Yourself:
  • “Each time, in the aftermath of the hurt, I do ask myself the question of how do I not end up here again? And what I have discovered is I will end up here again.” (Tracee, 44:36)
• On Being Enough:
  • “My spiritual awakening in life has been, I’m okay. You can’t ruin it, babe. You okay. That’s it. There was no burning bush. It was just, you’re okay.” (Tracee, 62:55)
• On Acceptance:
  • “Think about how weak you have a whopper to be everyone’s cup of tea... You’d have to be the weakest ass tea. You’d have to be water... And even not everyone likes water.” (Amanda & Tracee, 64:01)
• On Joy and Gentleness:
  • “Gentle, gentle. That’s one of my favorites. Like, give it twice. And then... give yourself a thousand breaks, and when those are done, give yourself a thousand more.” (Tracee, 26:04)

---

Important Timestamps

• [06:13] – Tracee explains the cauldron theory of kindred souls.
• [11:40] – Choosing and nurturing “barnacle” friendships; importance of chosen family.
• [15:36] – Cultural messaging around being “choosable” and women’s worth.
• [21:28] – Tracee’s tools for moving through mental struggles; the power of friendship and ritual.
• [24:25] – The aftermath of vulnerability: “risk hangover.”
• [32:09] – Clothing and creative expression; “wearing my insides on my outside.”
• [41:48] – The emotional resonance of her 50th birthday dress and singing “I’m 50 and I’m free.”
• [53:48] – Reflections on fertility, womanhood, and challenging patriarchal norms.
• [60:59] – Accepting not being everyone’s cup of tea and growing a “larger container” for self-acceptance.

---

Final Reflections

This episode is a heartfelt testament to living bravely and joyfully amid confusion, aging, and societal pressure. Tracee Ellis Ross’s candor, wisdom, and humor—met by the tenderness of the hosts—offers listeners both comfort and provocation: urging us all to find our cauldron people, to be gentle with ourselves, and to celebrate the messy, magical alchemy of being alive.

Standout closing moment:

• “It’s okay, sweetie. Gentle, gentle, gentle, gentle. I’m right here. Not going anywhere.” (Tracee, 66:16)

---

For More

Subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things and join their community for more laughter, honesty, and living out loud.

---

Transcript

[Amanda]

Welcome back to we can do hard things. One of the themes of the pod lately and our work always, I think, has been how do we stay engaged and active in the world, and how do we do that while holding fast to our joy? I've been thinking about that a lot lately as I approach my 50th birthday. I've been thinking about what I want for this next decade. That I want to be engaged. I want to be part of world changing, but I do not want to be part of hustle culture. I just want freedom and joy and depth and connection. And every time I think about those things, in particular, I think about Tracee Ellis Ross. I have this one image of Tracy that's like branded into my brain. And it was her at her 50th birthday party, which was incredible. She threw it for herself. She was surrounded by her biological family, her chosen family, all of these people who love her and have been loved by her. And when she stood up in front of us in her mother's beautiful dress, she grabbed a microphone and she's saying, I'm 50 and I'm free. While she was just surrounded by these people that, you know, if you have listened to her speak on our pod, the people that she calls her cauldron people, because she has this idea that we were all mixed in a specific batch of the cauldron and then we're spilled out into the world. And our job is to find the people who are made of the same stuff that was in the cauldron when we were mixed. And when we find them, we just kind of recognize them and say, oh, you're my cauldron person. So as we navigate this incredibly difficult time, we need these lighthouses who show us how to show up and also how to stay whole while we show up. And Tracy's one of them. Let's go. Hi, Tracee Ellis Ross. You all welcome to we can do hard things. I'm gonna really rush through the intro because today we have one of my favorite people. Is that not true? It is very true on this entire planet. Tracee Ellis Ross is an award winning actress and producer best known for her roles in ABC's award winning comedy series Black Ish and girlfriends. For her role as Rainbow Johnson in Black ish. As a comedic leading actress, Ross won the golden Globe Award in 2017 as well as nine NAACP Image Awards. She was nominated for five Emmys and two Critics Choice Awards. Ross is the CEO and founder of Pattern, a hair care brand for the curly coil and tight textured masses. Ross recently executive produced and narrates Hulu's the Hair Tales Amazing, a docu series about black women, beauty and identity through the distinctive lens of black hair. Upcoming, Ross will be producing a 10 episode podcast, I Am America, which aims to break through the noise during this divided time in our country. Did you know this?

[Abby]

I did not.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

In our country. I can't wait to share that.

[Amanda]

I can't wait.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. I honestly can't wait for you to hear it.

[Amanda]

Oh, my God.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. This is. It's so funny, Lizzy. You know what's funny about it? It's funny to listen to a friend read your stuff because it has nothing to do with our connection. And so it's funny. It was like at my birthday when my friends had the microphone. I was so tickled.

[Amanda]

That's what we want to talk about. First of all, we decided we're going to do this interview differently than we ever do interviews, because we don't want it to be like a this is your life thing. What I told my sister and Abby is that I just thought of this category of person, but you are my I'll have what she's having person. When you look at someone and you're with them and you spend time with them and you see who they are in the world, and you're just like, I will have what she's having. Yeah. And I just truly find you to be one of the most unique and wise and magnificent women I know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God.

[Abby]

How kind.

[Amanda]

Well, most people are like one thing or another thing. You just kind of, like, pick something and go with it. But you are so raw and real and also glamorous.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

You're so powerful and poised, but also very transparent and tender. It's just all the things at once. And so now I get to have you for an hour and do what I've always wanted to do, which is I need you to tell me everything you know. Okay. And you're so.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We kind of did that. We kind of did that in my old house on the couch.

[Amanda]

I know. I know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We kind of did that. Amanda, I'm so happy to meet you as well. It's like, crazy. Your voice is like a part of my world. But I haven't, like, had time with you.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So it's lovely to meet you. It's really fun. This is fun.

[Amanda]

It is fun.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

First of all, what you just said about me, it's so interesting to have mirrored back a version of yourself that is actually the version you want to be. And to get to a Place, age, where it's happened. There's a couple of different times in my life, and I go, oh, okay. Despite what it feels like sometimes in this dangerous neighborhood that is my mind, sometimes it's a great place, and sometimes, don't go in there alone, despite sort of some of that inner dialogue and that really bad story that happens in my head every once in a while, I catch glimpses of the way I'm actually presenting out in the world. And it's a nice moment of validation and encouragement, of like, okay, you're doing okay. You're moving in the right direction.

[Amanda]

I think so, Tracy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You are.

[Amanda]

If you're not, we're all fucked. If you're not, we're gonna stop trying. So can you explain to my sister and. Because I've already talked to Abby about this ad nauseam, but what you talked to me about cauldron sisters.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Talk to me about what the cauldron is.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I have this theory that souls are made in bunches. And, I don't know, Mother Nature, someone, somewhere, some beautiful gathering of people, they have these big cauldrons that they make people in that they make souls in. And it's souls, honestly, not people. And they're like, okay, what's this? This one's gonna have, I don't know, a little bit of. A little bit of heartbreak, but, like, a lot of joy. I don't know. And these are gonna be people who have really open hearts and whatever. And then they go. When they're cooked, when the little veggies are cooked in there, the souls, they, like, sprinkle them out through time. And some of them are like, you know, they were back in 1816. And one goes in a dog and one goes in a lizard, and one goes in a abbey, and one goes in a Glennon, and one goes in an Amanda, and they're, like, all over the place. And then you don't know when or how or what's gonna bring you to another cauldron fellow, sister or whatever, whomever. But you meet someone and you're like, oh, we're from the same soup.

[Abby]

Oh, my God. This is exactly correct.

[Amanda]

Right?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, it's one of those things where you're just like, I don't know what it is. Like, why do I feel like I've known you forever? It's like, oh, we have the same map, we have the same ingredients, and although the time period we're from or the town we're from or whatever, like, there was nothing that you would think would make our lives Match. Somehow, we come from the same ingredients.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Do you know what those things are?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's interesting. I really find that I am from the same soup of people who. Because I say this, there's some people where there's a lot of matches on the external things, and then there's the people that. It's just like the inner roadmap is just similar. The things that soothe and comfort and the willingness to have the inside conversation on the outside, the deep conversation, the transparency. And the thing that's interesting is sometimes, like, I mean, you know, we don't see each other all the time, but I've called you in tangly moments, and I've run into you on planes, and somehow there's a connection that is beyond the circumstances of our life. And so maybe the people from my cauldron also, I do think back in the day, I would have been certainly burned at the stake.

[Amanda]

Totally.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Definitely a witchy lady.

[Amanda]

I know. I kind of think our cauldron is literal. I think it's a literal.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It might. It might be.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It really might be. We might actually be out of a steaming cauldron. Yeah.

[Amanda]

Oh, I love it so much.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. I always say that when you hear those old stories about the women that were burned at the stake because of their beliefs and their feelings and their instincts and their intuition and their deep soul calling, I read their description, and I'm like, huh, that sounds like a really great lady.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Every damn time.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. I'm like, that sounds like someone I would really want to be friends with. Yeah.

[Amanda]

Every time you hear of a witch, you think, cauldron sister.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think that's my sis.

[Amanda]

Speaking of. So Abby and I were freaking lucky enough to be at your recent 50th birthday celebration of life. It was so freaking beautiful.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

It was a cauldron of your people.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was. And I really appreciate you guys coming out of the house, because I know for me and for you, that's not an easy thing.

[Amanda]

Well, I would do anything for love, Tracy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I literally. I'm one of those people that I'm like, yeah, I would love to go, but do I really want to leave the house?

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm always thinking, oh, I wish I wanted to go.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, that's the best. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

[Amanda]

So I have to tell you, we were there for maybe 10 minutes when maybe six people had come up to us and introduced themselves to us as your best friend.

[Abby]

Yep.

[Amanda]

Okay. I just started. Now. That's what I do. I do interviews. I just am Glennon Doyle. I'm Tracee Ellis Ross's best friend. But it was amazing how many people were. So you're just beloved to people. One woman told us that you were the only person who was in her delivery room delivering her twins. And she told us this next to her husband.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I kept thinking, oh, he was on a business trip. She was, yeah. She was on hospital rest with her twins. She had to be in the hospital, hooked up to things, and he happened to go, like, for a 24 hour. Like, he literally had to go somewhere for a work trip. And so I was on call, and I got the call.

[Amanda]

Oh, my God.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I was right there. And then I switched off and then when he arrived, but I was the first one to hold them. Finley and Clover. And it was really magical, I have to say. The doctor actually said, because, you know, they put the little curtain up, and the doctor was like, you can actually sit down. You don't have to watch. I was like, no, I'm fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, actually, can you scoot over a little bit? Yeah. I was like, yeah, you're blocking my view. I'm so sorry. It was amazing. Yeah.

[Amanda]

You have described yourself as a barnacle on your good friends lives. I just love that image so much that you insist upon and allow yourself to be a barnacle. Talk to us about that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. You know, there's a really interesting thing. I am single. I have been single. I've been single for a very long time. I've had many wonderful ins and outs of things, but no one stuck to the pan. And as a result, I get to curate my family, my chosen family around me. And I don't think I realized the gift of that until I've started to get older. But my friend Samira, she is the one that coined that barnacle phrase. And she did a toast.

[Amanda]

She did that beautiful toast.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She did the toast. Yeah. So Samira I met when I was 22 at Mirabella magazine when I went to work as an intern in the fashion department there. And she was also an intern. She is now the editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar. Yeah, we've been through all these journeys together, and really, it's just the best metaphor because it's like, you think of a barnacle, like, you know, I keep thinking of those people that are, like, chored with scraping the barnacles off the bottom of the boat that, like, don't want to go, and they've, like, made home there, and then they, like, shackle to other barnacles. And they're like attached to the boat and making a life on a thing that's not really where they're supposed to be because it's supposed to be on a rock, not a boat, you know? And that's what I feel like. I feel like I'm like on the back of Samira's butt. Just like, I got you. You can't even reach me if you try and scrape me off. Like, I remember someone saying once I tried to get rid of that relationship, but it was like gum on your shoe. There's always like residue of it somewhere, you know, and it's the best residue. I mean, you know, the history that occurs over. So Monica and Samira were the two that gave that back and forth speech together. And Monica and I met in College. I was 6, 17, 8, 17. We were both 17. Our boyfriends were best friends. And they're long gone.

[Amanda]

Yeah, they are.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wow. They are long gone.

[Amanda]

They were not barnacles.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, they were not barnacles.

[Amanda]

They were like the people with a brush.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And you're like, yes, exactly. Good luck with that. Good luck with that, buddy. Yeah. So Monica, 17, Samira, when I graduated from college and was interning, I met her at 22. I'm 50 now, so these are long run situations. And Monica, Monica's an only child, so I'm the sister. I remember her son. We were together somewhere. And there's a video of it. It's fantastic. I'm sitting on Monica's lap or she's sitting on my lap. And he was like, what are you guys doing? That's weird. And Monica said, this is what people do. They love each other. This is what it looks like, kid. Get used to it because this is it, you know? God, I love it. So barnacle. I'll be there, I'll be there on there. What was that friend song? I'll be there for you.

[Amanda]

I only hear it six times a day, so. Yeah, I just love that idea of it being okay to be stubbornly stuck to someone because I think so many of us are afraid of being a burden. And I love the claiming of that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I absolutely am afraid of being a burden. I think one of the things I can't remember who said this to me, that not one friend or one person has to be all things to you at all times. Which is really helpful because I come from some wiring and information that might have told me something. A little bit confused.

[Abby]

Not me.

[Amanda]

My messages were very clear.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, really clear. I'm not Unpacking any of this as an adult? No, no, no. Patriarchy didn't teach me nothing.

[Amanda]

No. So what do you mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, so we go back to this model that you're sold, that we not only are we sold it, but we are fed it and we have to drink it and it's everywhere. And if you're not careful, you actually think it's true. And it's the only bit of news for you, which is that my job as a woman is to learn to be choosable. Having nothing to do with who I am, what makes my heart sing, floats my boat, makes me feel safe, makes me feel comfortable, makes me feel good, makes me feel powerful, makes me feel smart, any of those things. But really is more about how I might be seen so that I might be chosen so that my life could mean something as a chosen woman who then gets to have a child and then be a mother and do that for a child. So our culture sells us this and there is nothing wrong with that journey. But if it's a chosen journey as opposed to the one that you think is gonna make you worth anything, and then everything starts to fall into that messaging and then if you're a black woman, there's like a whole other blah, blah, blah. There's so many different versions of that, but that's like that overarching thing as a woman. And then your friendships fall into that hole too. So if you haven't been chosen for a guy, then you're gonna fill all that God sized hole and all those different things with that friend and then you become the best friend. And then it just, you know, all, it just gets all real tangled and real confusing. I've been grateful enough to have found places where there are eons of tools and different ways to unpack that crazy messaging, make sense of it in a way that actually gives me a shot at genuine happiness and a robust life that's actually mine. And it's like a daily reprieve. Some days are better than others. Some days the old messaging comes in, sweeps in, and I've got a really nice matching story that goes with it of my unlovability and that narrative that just kind of travels along with it. And if I'm not careful and go into, you know, that thinking alone, I get stuck there. And then, you know, you come out.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

91% of dog parents say their dog is a full member of their family. My only question is for the other 9%, Ollie makes fresh food developed by chefs and backed by vet nutritionists using high quality ingredients and it's tailored specifically to your dog. The portions are pre measured, it arrives at your door and what I really like is that it's not just food. Through the Ollie app you can upload a photo and check in with real vets about your dog's weight, digestion, teeth coat all this stuff. It's nice to hear some reassurance about get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to ollie.com hardthings Tell them all about your dog and use Code Hard Things to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer an Obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's o l l I e.com hardthings and enter code hard things to get 60% off your first box. Ollie feed the Obsession A multivitamin isn't

[Abby]

there to replace balanced eating. It's there to support what you're already trying to do, even when you're eating thoughtfully. Little gaps can happen because of things like genetics, dietary preference or how modern food is grown. That's why I decided to be more intentional about adding a multivitamin to my routine. I landed on rituals essential for women 18 now for me, taking it as simple two delayed release capsules each morning and I appreciate that it's designed to be gentle on my stomach. It also matters to me that Ritual focuses on ingredient transparency. Their essentials for women 18 is third party tested for heavy metals and Clean Label Project certified and the formulas are vegan, non GMO Project verified, gluten free and major allergen free. Instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com we can do hard things. That's ritual.com WeCanDoHardThings For 25% off your

[Guest Host or Narrator]

first month about 1 in 50 people in the US experience O C D. Yet the condition is so misunderstood and so stigmatized that Most people go 10 to 15 years before receiving an accurate diagnosis. That delay is heartbreaking because OCD is actually very treatable when you get the right kind of care. Traditional talk therapy is not recommended for ocd. In many cases, it can intensify symptoms. That's why we want to highlight nocd. NOCD is the leading provider of evidence based OCD treatment. Their licensed therapists specialize in exposure and response prevention or erp, the gold standard approach shown to help people reclaim their lives. NOCD sessions are fully virtual and covered by insurance for more than 155 million Americans. If any of this sounds like you or someone you care about, visit nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call with their team to learn more about how NOCD can help. That's n o c d dot com.

[Abby]

I want to follow up really quick. How do you not go into your own mind or thinking alone? Yeah.

[Amanda]

What are your strategies?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Friendships? I have practices of healing and support that I lean towards. Therapy, some of which I keep sacred and private. Some of those you know, but I don't share them necessarily publicly. But friendship has been the biggest. And the willingness to be completely transparent and to be able to call people. When I am on the floor, whether it's metaphorically or physically on the floor. But when in my mind I have been floored, which happens often. I can't remember the. I think it's friendship. The tools that tether me. This is actually something I got from you. Tether me to what I like best about my life. Which is the basic things.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like my favorite part of my life is my life. I love all the stuff. But like I really like my making my bed in the morning or doing laundry or making my food or taking the garbage out. Like just the basics that really tether me to my own humanity and my own sense of self and being able to show up and be of service and all of those things. I have so many different tools that keep me out of my. It's honestly like the. The. My mind is a wonderful place. It gets dangerous when I get connected to the really bad horror story that I have been stitching together since I was young. You know, and somehow if I get. If I fall back into that groove, it is so dangerous up there. And then everything's colored by the wrong information. Everything.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's like our minds are such. I mean yours especially like magical creep things come out of it that are unbelievable. Not of this world. And then when you're in charge of it. When you give it a job. Yes, when it gives you a job. Like when you haven't directed it. No. Good.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, is it. When I haven't directed it. That's an interesting distinction. I don't know. Sometimes I don't know what it is that starts it because sometimes it's not connected the way I think it is. It could be like 2 days ago I was with somebody who started me being afraid about something and then somehow that fear starts to snowball and then it starts reaching into other areas. Like once I start getting afraid, it could just start with a Little anxiety once it. You know, And. And I think I've shared this with you. I'm one of these people that. I don't know what. I don't know how this happened, but I don't get scared of stuff until after.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, I'm a girl that, like, jumps off a cliff, right? I'm like, oh, my God, let's do it. This is the scariest thing in the world. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get organized. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make this list. I'm gonna do my research. I'm gonna make sure I'm rehearsed. I'm gonna make sure I know what I'm wearing, how I'm doing it, who's gonna be there, we're gonna do. And then I go and I jump off the cliff. And I'm up there and I'm like, I'm flying. I'm flying off the cliff. I'm flying. And it's so good. It's everything I wanted it to be. This is the best cliff I've ever been off. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then I land, and then I'm like, what the fuck did I just do? Yeah. Who would do that? Why would you do that? Oh, my God, you're so dumb. This is actually evidence. Put that in the fire of unlovability. That shit is going to roar. We're going to make sure that we go back through every single thing that you did with a fine tooth coma. We're going to prove to you that you are exactly the most unlovable, stupid, humiliating person in the world. How could you ever. You are filled with shame. You are riddled with it. And then that's what happens on the next day. Like, it's out of control. It's like, out of control. Risk hangover.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it's a risk hangover. And then what's crazy is, like, in that state, someone could say, oh, my God, that was so amazing. They could say one thing, and I can hear that they were covering. They were telling me the part they liked. But then it's my job to figure out all the things that I did wrong that they didn't like. And the truth is, some of that is an ace in my deck, right? Because I'm not gonna make a mistake twice.

[Abby]

I'll tell you that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Some of it's an ace in my deck, but when left unchecked, without compassion and tenderness and kindness, and when I'm alone with it is a no Bueno.

[Amanda]

Don't be so gentle.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Gentle. Gentle. That's one of my favorites. Like, give it twice. And then I have another friend who always says, give yourself a thousand breaks, and when those are done, give yourself a thousand more. And I'm much better at that. As I've gotten older, one of the things I learned from Payma children, that was the most. Not that I know her just from her books and her material, but she's

[Guest Host or Narrator]

walking around going, hi, I'm Pima Chaudren. I'm Trace, Ellis Ross's best friend.

[Amanda]

Best friend, Listen, that's exactly the way

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I feel, by the way. Glenn and Abby, when people found out that they were like, wait, you're friends with them? It was amazing. I was like, yeah, that's where they're. Yeah, we're best friends. What? You didn't. Yeah, I don't. I don't talk about, you know, my. My aunt. We're friends, so. But one of the things I learned from my dear friend Pima was if I can't take the information in, like, there's times when it's not the time for me to look back, and I can wait until I can actually look back constructively and not in a way that's gonna create another wound and more wound. And I'm learning as I've gotten older to be deliberate about my aftercare. So, like, I had a plan the day after my birthday.

[Amanda]

What was

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

involved? Going somewhere where I could have proper support and be a part of a community that supports me in that way. And I gave myself the day I left for Cabo the next day. So I all day to look through and make sure I felt okay about it. I have to, like, see it back for myself, to hold it in a way that it actually remains. And one of the things I do with my therapist is before something we now ask the question, how do you want to feel after? Yep. And what do I need to put in place to support myself in the after? And I'm such an independent person. One of the things I really am not good at is I think I'm good. And I need. Need to better plan being not alone, because I'm always. I like to go places alone, but I need the partnership in it. And so it's really interesting you just

[Abby]

gave us a to do list on how to support people who have events or situations that might be a big deal and to work through how it was and also to take care of yourself post, because going out of the house is a thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's a Thing. And it's more of a thing now. Post pandemic. A lot of that stuff got kicked back up for me. Yes.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Did you feel like the birthday would be so. Would be vulnerable because so many people were there that you loved. How did you decide you want to feel after it?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

One of the things my mom loves a celebration. She just. Since my mom loves Christmas. So I'm a child that came from celebration. Celebration for the birthday. Like, birthdays were just. It was magic what my mom would do. She would draw on all the mirrors. There were balloons. So, like, you would look in the mirror and it would say, mommy loves you. Happy birthday. It was just the most glorious. Like, she just loves celebration. I am. Honestly, it's taken me a long time to realize I'm not that person. I don't decorate for Christmas. You got to take it down.

[Abby]

That's exactly right.

[Amanda]

Do exactly how I did.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's the same. Same reason I don't wear mascara. You got to take it off.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Aftercare, like, no, thank you. You know, like, if I'm not doing it for work. You've got to be kidding me. So I celebrate in different ways. It's like different for me. So I made some conscious choices because it was 50 about what I wanted to do. Last year, I had the most perfect birthday ever. It was six people at dinner, a restaurant I always go to. I ordered the same things I ordered. And we were just talking. It was just a regular dinner. That's all it was. It was fantastic. This felt important for me. It is an honor to turn 50.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

There are people, particularly after what we went through with COVID So many people lost their lives. People don't make it into this age. And I feel honored. Even the things that I'm really challenged by. Like, really challenging. But I feel like. Thank you. Like, look where, like, this is evidence of my life and my history and my legacy and like my laughter and my things, you know? And so I really wanted to market with that. And so I had to ask myself what would make it feel like a celebration for me. Some of those things were. I wanted costume changes.

[Amanda]

Oh, God. Just wait.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Cause we have so many costumes, Clothing, clothing. Really, it just dressing up is just. It. It's. I don't know. People might think it's. It's. I love it. When I am having a bad day. One of my favorite things to do is go in the closet and play dress up. I woke up this morning, I bought a new sweater. And I woke up this morning at 6:30 and I was like, ooh, I have the outfit. And I, in my glasses, my hair everywhere, stripped down and went in the closet and made the look with the new sweater and literally looked in the mirror and was like, yeah, you got it, you got it, you got it. That's what I'm talking about.

[Abby]

Tracy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I have no idea where I'm gonna wear that outfit. I never leave the house. But I was like, that's what I'm talking about. Now that's Tracy. All right, now I'm gonna brush my teeth.

[Amanda]

I need you to ask a question about it. Okay. And this might be totally. I'm just. You have said about fashion, it's not look at me, it's this is me. Yeah, this is me. Okay. I need you to explain to me what the hell that means. I understand. Like, a chef can be like, here is my heart and mind and soul on a plate. Tracee Ellis Ross can be like, here is my mind and my heart and my soul in a sweater. I'm amazed by it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, so when I was young, I've always loved beautiful things. I used to trail after my mom and pick up the beads that fell off of her dress on stage after the curtain went down. You could hear them crunching under her high heels. And I would get those little 35 millimeter lace canister things and I would collect them, and then I would separate them by color into the different beads. And so I've always loved the artistry of clothing. I saw a woman, my mother, use clothing and glamour as a way to transform herself into a different version of herself, but still herself and a woman with agency. It was about her. It wasn't about pleasing someone else. It was sort of adorning herself with the. All of the baubles that she felt were a version of this part of her life. And so that was always my relationship to clothing and glamour and sparkle. And then I started to use clothing as armor. And now looking back, I can define. There were two ways that I fought racism without realizing that's what it was. But I came from a wealthy world, and I was living on Fifth Avenue, But I was still one of very few black people in many environments, in stores, in different places. And I didn't know that what was coming at me sometimes was microaggression and micro racism and all those kinds of things coming at me in these different ways. And so the way I presented myself was part of my armor. I was going to play the role of somebody who couldn't be fucked with. And so I did it. In grade school, high school, like, I just. There was a way that I would. It was. It was just. It was my armor. And then it sort of transformed itself and transmuted itself out of armor and into a form of creative expression for me. And it's one of the ways I wear my insides on my outside. And so I dress in all different kinds of ways. And back to what you said when you described me at the beginning, like, all these different parts of me that seem to match or don't match or whatever, like I. I let my clothing be that. So sometimes I want to feel really sexy and then sometimes I don't want to feel sexy. So it just depends on, like, what I'm covering up and what I'm wanting to share and all of that. And I worked in fashion and was a stylist for a while. So there's a language to clothing that I really speak. It's like sometimes I watch dancers and I think, my God, the language of their bodies. Like, they're literally speaking a language. And for me, style as opposed to fashion. But style is an expression. The same way alok defines beauty in a way that it's the imprint of your soul. And beauty is something that blossoms and I feel for me, clothing is a version of that. I really wish everyone would adopt. That understanding of beauty, by the way, just blows my mind.

[Amanda]

I think it's wild that you just mentioned Alok because that's what I was thinking of when you were talking about.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

Your bra and underwear shouldn't be the most uncomfortable things you're wearing. That's why I tried me undiese. The feel free bralettes and underwear are made from this ultra soft, ultra modal fabric that moves with you. No adjusting, no irritation, just comfort that

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

actually lasts all day.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

It's breathable, stretchy, and perfect no matter what you're doing. From classic black basics to really fun seasonal prints, there's something forever everyone. And they come in sizes XS through 4XL, so you get a flattering fit for every body type. They're also responsibly sourced, partnering with manufacturers who care about their workers. With over 30 million pairs sold and 90,000 five star reviews right now. As a listener to our show, you can get 20% off your first order plus free shipping. At MeUndies.com we can do hard things and enter promo code. We can do hard things things. That's Meundies.com we can do hard things promo code. We can do hard things for up to 20% off and free shipping.

[Abby]

Thanks to our friends at Gatorade for sponsoring this episode. Okay, I have to tell you about something from a brand I'm pretty familiar with that I think all of our listeners must try. It's Gatorade Lower Sugar, and it has everything you need for hydration. It's all the Gatorade electrolytes you love and 75% less sugar than Gatorade Thirst Quencher. I spent most of my life thinking about performance. But taking care of your body isn't just about performance. It's about having the energy to show up for your life. Whether that's training, traveling, being present with family, or doing the hard emotional work we talk about here. Hydration matters. And what I love about Gatorade Lower Sugar is that it has 75% less sugar and all of the electrolytes of Gatorade Thirst Quencher. There are no artificial flavors, sweeteners, or colors. Try Gatorade Lower Sugar today. It has the electrolytes Gatorade is known for with 75% less sugar and no artificial flavors, sweeteners, or colors. You can find Gatorade Lower Sugar online or in stores near you. Okay. The best thing I feel like I can do for my skin is keep it moisturized and hydrated, especially in the winter months when the air is dry. And what's even more important to me is a simple skincare routine that does not involve multiple steps. Oneskin's products are backed by extensive lab and clinical data, including four peer reviewed clinical studies to validate their efficacy and safety on all skin types. Born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin. Now, as you age, for a limited time, try one skin with 15% off. Using code WECANDOHARD things at OneSkin co. WECANDOHARDthings. That's 15% off. OneSkin co. With code, we can do hard things. After your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.

[Amanda]

Your costume changes that night. Like, I get what you're doing. I can see the language you're speaking. I'm like, oh, there's the majesty that's inside of Tracy is now outside of Tracy. Oh, the sexiness that's inside of Tracy is outside the, like, ancient spirit that is inside of Tracy was in that first costume.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, that first outfit was genuinely like some futuristic, like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, Alien or Roman or I don't know.

[Amanda]

If it was going backwards or forwards or upwards, to heaven or downwards. Yeah, we were outside of time.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then the dream to wear one of my mother's dresses.

[Amanda]

There's the love tradition, honor of the lineage, the. That outside of Tracy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Can I tell you a cute part of that dress, please? So I sent my mom a picture of a black version of that dress. And I was like, so where's this? Where's this? She was like, oh, we can go to the storage and we can find it. And then she said, but there's a red one. And I was like, great. So the red one was even better. But so I went to my mom's house, and I have spent much time in her quick change booth when I was younger, learning how to get her in and out of a dress in three minutes. And there's a way. You, like, hold the waist. You butterfly a dress on the floor, so you step right to the floor, and then the dress comes up. Because Those weigh, like, 30 pounds, those dresses. Oh, my God. Yeah. So you. You hold my mom's waist so she's steady as she reaches down to pull the dress up. And then you switch. Once she's got it up enough, you switch, and her arms go in, and then you can zip up. Right? And so. So I've done that many a time and all through the years. And so this time, I went to her house, and there I was, totally naked with my mom, holding my waist. And I said, mom, I'm so sorry, because I took my underwear off. I'm like, I'm so sorry, Mom. And she was like, I know.

[Abby]

I know.

[Amanda]

That thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I was like, I know, but you haven't seen in a long time.

[Amanda]

You know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's like, get a little bit out of your reach now, you know? She's like, I made that thing. I know. And as I always say, which really drives her crazy, I'm like, I know I came out of your vagina, which makes her crazy. She's like, ugh. So inappropriate. So she's there, I'm naked, and she's zipping me into her dress and then taking the pictures of me. And it was really moving for me, very. Because so much of my life, Diana Ross aside, but I saw my mother. I saw this incredible woman in a sparkly dress on a stage. And what it meant to me about being a woman in charge of your life. The example, a woman that was saying, this is me, not look at me. A woman that was in her full glory and freedom with her arms up her heart, open in her sensuality and sexuality. And so it was a lighthouse that I've been walking towards. So then at my 50th birthday, to actually be in one of those dresses and to strangely out of nowhere, grab the microphone and unrehearsed, sing her song, it's my turn, and change that line to 50. I'm 50 and I'm free. That was just kind of magical. And in the cauldron of my loved ones.

[Abby]

I mean, and also, the same beads that you were picking up as a child.

[Amanda]

Everybody was, jaws open, just like, how are we witnessing this?

[Abby]

Yeah, it was.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was a really unplanned and unbelievably special moment. It was so interesting because after my birthday, which is what I'm in now, it feels like I had a New Year's Eve, you know, and I'm on the other side and the dust has settled from blackish. And I was tethered to that for so many years, where everything was around it. I'm also going through perimenopause. So I have, for my entire life been tethered to a very routine cycle. And I'm very connected to my body. So I would know I'm ovulating. You know, I would have all the feelings of knowing that, and all of that is out the window. And I turned 50, and here I am in this open space now, sort of allowing the bubbling up of whatever might be here. Because I'm really specific about my life, and I'm somebody who doesn't just go where the tide is taking me. I really. I manifest quickly. So I language deliberately because otherwise I go places I didn't mean to go. And so it's a really interesting and open special moment. I know. You're so fucking cool, Sissy. Did you want to say something?

[Amanda]

So I want to say so many things.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Say things.

[Amanda]

Are you crying?

[Guest Host or Narrator]

Is anyone not crying?

[Amanda]

That's the first sister that doesn't happen in our family. Tracy.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

I'm just sitting kind of in awe of the life that you have built with such intention and how utterly uncompromising you've been in terms of being yourself. And like all of the passions and agency and choices that that means. What do you attribute that to? Like, what do you attribute your kind of ability?

[Abby]

Yeah,

[Amanda]

well, what she does, Tracy, doesn't abandon herself.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I've really learned how to do that because I. I think that I have abandoned myself way too many times. Way too many times. But each time, in the aftermath of the Hurt. I do ask myself the question of how do I not end up here again? And what I have discovered is I will end up here again.

[Abby]

Oh, God, it's true. Damn it. Why do we have to keep learning those same lessons over and over?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I just think that's it, though. It's funny. I have been nursing another. Just deep disappointment. And my little inner child was. She was just crying, just crying so hard. And for the first time, I was able to sit with her. And I was like, here's the thing, my love. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. I don't know. I don't know how to be anybody else. I just don't. But what I know how to do is to be me and to just hold that space with as much compassion and curiosity and gentleness as possible. And to find all the things, even if it's a bag of fricking Funyuns. Like, what is it. What is it that we need today to just try and hold that space of love? I think that's the thing. We're sold. That's wrong. I don't know that life is supposed to be a thing that just feels good all the time.

[Abby]

That's right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But how can we hold the spaces and the days and the periods when it just doesn't feel good? And I just feel so unlovable? And, like, how can I have the hurt without deciding it means I'm unlovable? How do you not give meaning to it? And that's where the work is. Like, in that little space. Right? Because I tell you, I mean. I mean, this is. I'm on the floor half the time. I'm. One of your questions. What was the question? Like, how often do you feel bad? What is. I saw.

[Amanda]

Yeah. How often are you down a lot? Lots of times. Like, three last year.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Three last year.

[Amanda]

I'm joking.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you mean. Yep.

[Amanda]

Do you mean, like, what?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't remember last year. I am bogged down by this year. Thank you. I'm bogged down by this week. And the thing that's crazy to me is, like, you're just sailing along. It's like, a good one. I'm, like, feeling good.

[Amanda]

You got your sweater.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then, like. And, like, where does it come. I'm like, oh, I did not know I was gonna get sideswiped by that. And why am I two days later, still in a ha. Why is it a week later? And also, I've learned that two. Both things. Two things can be true at the same time. I Can be really productive and doing really well and also, like, heartbroken.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

Something you just said. I don't know how to be anything but me. To me, that is so incredible because I know how to be anything. Like I almost anything but to me.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

And so there is an equal amount of pain and loneliness in being able to be everything other than you.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Amanda]

And.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

And so, like that thing, how did you get to the place where you could a be you and identify it? Like, this is Tracy. I can see it, I can smell it. I can put it in a sweat. And then how did you get to the place where you just couldn't be anything other than that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, I actually think that's. That the question is actually how. The entrance into it was making friends with the loneliness and the hurt that comes on either side because I was other than me forever. And I still have days where I'm like, why the fuck did I just say that? I don't. I didn't believe what. Who was that person that was so weird, like, why did I just do that? You get home and you're like, oh, my God, that person thinks I'm a person who does. I don't do that. Yeah, yeah, no worries.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

I'll just move.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, yeah, that's what I think every time a bug comes to my house.

[Amanda]

Well, good for you. Time to do it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This is your lovely new home. Take care. Also, you know, I don't have kids. I don't have. I haven't had a partner, so I have been forced to go, like, well, I don't know, what do I want then? There's so many things I don't do because there's only so many things you can do alone. And I do a lot of the things alone that most people are like, I can't believe you do that alone. I go on vacations alone. I go to dinner alone on a Friday night at 7 or 8 o'. Clock. You know what I mean? Like, I do all those things, but there's certain things that, like, I'm not gonna do alone. I'm just not. And so I've been forced to kind of. Of figure out that going in my closet and making an outfit, like, really makes me happy. You know what I mean? Like, I get jazzed up and I'm like, that was good. Now I'm gonna go watch the crown.

[Amanda]

Good night. Yes.

[Abby]

You know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This day was good. You know, I'm gonna eat a whole jar of olives all by myself. Even though my sister said, I smell like olives. When I was five, I like olives. I'm gonna eat the whole jar. Like, now, I just. I literally. People put a bag, you know, open a bag of potato chips. I take a jar of olives, and I pour the liquid out, and then I dump it into a bowl, and I eat the bowl of it.

[Amanda]

Sounds like heaven.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's heaven to me. But. So I think it's more the other thing. Cause I think we all suffer with, am I this or am I that? But, like, how do we tend to. How do we hold really lovingly and gently the aftermath that comes up, the shame, all those things that you should be doing something different, living a different way, should have done it differently, said it differently or whatever. Like, how do you hold that part of you? Because that's the thing, I think, that holds us back from actually having a life that we want to live. But I struggle with all this. I mean, there's. I'm just bumbling along over here. Don't compare your insides to other people's outsides. You know what I mean?

[Amanda]

That's right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, it always looks like it's easier

[Amanda]

over there, but it's also knowing that losing somebody hurts, and then the losing yourself hurts more.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. I love you, but I love me more.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, and that's a really hard one. That doesn't work every day.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it doesn't work every day. Yeah.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I mean, I love me, but I love you more. So fuck it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, Today you win, buddy. Right. Today I have thrown me out the window. My dear friend.

[Amanda]

You know, I got this letter and I'm going out.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. And tomorrow I will deal with the aftermath.

[Amanda]

That's right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We will call the therapist and the squad of friends and we will try and put me back together, because I obviously threw me out into a whole bunch of pieces. I also used to be a person. I swear to God, I would run the things by everybody, like, go to, like, put $20 on the gas tank, number 12. And let me ask you a question. So there was this. There was this guy that said. And so he called, and then I called. Should I. Do I call him back or. I don't. I mean, I just. I know. Oh, yeah. Yes, on 12. Number 12, I guess. But do you have any experience with this because of your objective? And I know you don't know me, so I just want to run this by you. Is there anything you could tell me about your choice when it comes to the calling him back? Do I wait two days? Like, you Know what I mean?

[Amanda]

I do, I do. I mean, I tried.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm going to try everybody. You know what I mean? Or the my life is mine speech. Like, that was all my favorite line in that was. I asked my ex boyfriend

[Amanda]

tell us,

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

get out of here. Get out of here. Tracy. Like, come on. Like, you have not been with this person in how long? What you doing, girl? I know you don't need his permission, but it still comes up, you know? And I always.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

People who haven't listened to that glare speech. It was the realization that Tracy came to after she found herself stewing over the need to tell her very ex boyfriend that she was interested in seeing other people.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

If you're listening, you couldn't see. I rolled my eyes so hard that I thought they might get stuck behind my head at the thought of myself doing that. This is the thing. I have a friend who also says, you know, we know better. We don't always do better.

[Amanda]

That's amen. And sometimes we know we're not doing better and we choose it anyway.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And we choose it anyway.

[Amanda]

That's right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And so what? And that's the same person who says, hey, babe, why don't you give yourself 1000 breaks?

[Amanda]

And then when those are done, can I have that friend's number also? You do come on the podcast. She might be my actual best friend.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Because it's crazy. Like, you just. Yeah, you don't know. And she always says to me, it's not always what you're doing, it's the questions you're asking. Just ask the right questions.

[Amanda]

You know what's interesting to me is while you're talking and you're talking about how you talk to yourself, and I know how you've talked to other people, and I was thinking about how you've mentioned twice that, well, I don't have kids, but. And I was thinking that the people. I have three people in my life who I consider to be the best mothers, like. You know what I'm gonna say right now.

[Abby]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Who just have the most pristine mothering energy. And it's you. And these are the people in my life. You, Liz Gilbert and Alex Hedison. And what do they all three have in common? They don't fucking have kids.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yep. Yeah. And they're all very good looking.

[Amanda]

Oh, they're also all gorgeous. Yeah. They're the best mothers that I know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I will say, I say this to people all the time. I am a wonderful mother.

[Amanda]

Wonderful.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I'm very mothering. And it's been hard for Me to claim that in a world where I don't have the thing that says. I mean, what was I just writing as I'm trying to. Let me see, hold on. I can feel my body's ability. This was journal entry from like three or four days ago. I can feel my body's ability to make a child draining out of me. Sometimes I find it hilarious, as if there's a fire sale going on in my uterus and someone's in there screaming, all things must go. And then I look down and blah, blah, blah, skip that. And then this is what's interesting to me as my body becomes a foreign place to me that doesn't really feel safe or like home. And I don't know how to manage or control or fight the external binary narrative of the patriarchy that has hunted me and haunted me most of my adult life. Is it my fertility that is leaving me? Is it my womanhood? Or is it really neither? But I have to fight to hold my truth, because I have been programmed so successfully by the water we all swim in, by the water we all are served. And I feel fertile with creativity, full of power, more and more a woman than I've ever been. And yet that power that I was told I must use was not used. A power. Yeah, I mean, just trying to figure out sort of what that means. Like, because my ability to have a child is leaving me. But, like, I don't, I don't agree that that's what fertile means. I don't agree that that's what woman means. Which is why the freedom that the expansion around gender has offered me and the knowledge that is being shared with us by the trans community is like, oh my God, thank you. Like, thank you for finally unpacking something that, like, I had no ability to unpack because of what was handed to me in a culture that like, thought of it in such a limited way. Yeah. And so trying to make sense of that at this age with my own limited point of view is really fun, honestly.

[Amanda]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it was gorgeous.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

And what if that idea of fertility from so young, if it was handed to us and saying, what are you going to do with this fertility that you have? And one minute aspect of that might be that you choose to reproduce, that's.

[Amanda]

But your fertility is this big.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

And then we would realize, God, how many generations and generations of fallow ground because we were never presented with our own creative, forward thinking, beautiful fertility.

[Amanda]

And then all the women who just have kids, who everyone looks at them and says, well, you should be freaking happy. You did the thing. You did the one fertile thing. And no, they maybe had a wide vast of what their fertility could have birthed into the world.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Now.

[Amanda]

It really.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's heartbreaking. It's a heartbreaking thought. It's heartbreaking, and I'm grateful to be able to. To look at it with curiosity instead of heartbreak. And the heartbreak does come up, and I get to hold that gently and lovingly and then say, remind myself. Like, I woke up every morning of my life and I've tried to do my best, so I must be where I'm supposed to be.

[Abby]

Well, thank you for speaking up, too, on behalf of the trans community. I've never thought of it that way. And. And being a person who won't have my own biological children, you just kind of gave me a little bit of a roadmap of work I need to do. And I just. I'm really grateful for all that you just said. That was unreal.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Thank you.

[Amanda]

She's something, this one. She's something.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So hard for me to take any of that in, but it is an unbelievable injustice that is laid on all of us as human beings that there is one pathway that is informed by this random construct that somebody came up with around gender. When I pull back from it, I'm like, that's like a joke. Who did that? You know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, who? Who did that? That's not. That's so silly. You've just limited so much. So much life. You've limited so much life and so many things.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

It's almost like that was the point.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it's almost like that was the point, you know, really? Like, it's like, terrifying when you think about it. You're just like, oh, my gosh. So, yeah, I ponder these things a lot. And then every once in a while, I hear something and I'm just like, right. Like, why did I. Why. Why did I? And then I have to forgive. We all have to forgive ourselves because we come by it honestly. It's what we've been served. It's what we've been given. And the courage of those that give us a different roadmap that shares something that opens up and unlocks a space that we had locked down unconsciously is always such a gift.

[Amanda]

When your sister Rhonda, who I love so much, when she gave the toast,

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

you know, she's the wise one, by the way. Like, I'm chop. Like I'm chopped liver in my family, like my siblings Are like, she's something. The shiznizzle. Your siblings, just, like. They're just magical. They take care of me. You know what I mean?

[Abby]

The love.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You're the bond for each other.

[Abby]

It's just. The love is so palpable.

[Amanda]

Yeah, that was one of my favorite things about the night. Just watching your siblings watch you. And anyway, glowing. All glowing. Okay, I forgot what I was gonna say.

[Abby]

Rhonda.

[Amanda]

Rhonda. Okay. And then she said. She quoted you back to you when she said, my life is mine. And then you sang a song that was your mom's song. And then, as you said in the beginning, you were saying, I'm 50 and free. I'm 50 and free. What are you free from? When you were saying that, what were you thinking? And maybe freeing from, like, maybe we're never free from anything. But, like.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't know that I'll ever be free from some of these things. I've actually read little things I wrote when I was, like, 15 and 12, and I'm like, wow. Been chomping on this stuff forever.

[Amanda]

Almost. Almost done.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Fascinating. In another 50 years, you're gonna have it nailed, Tracy. I am gonna have this stuff nailed. I'm gonna tell you.

[Amanda]

Think of the costumes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Think of the costumes. I remember this moment. I was crying so hard to this particular friend, and I was like, I just.

[Abby]

I don't.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't think.

[Abby]

I just don't think.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, I just am not right. Like, it's just that people. I'm just not lovable.

[Amanda]

Like, I do it all wrong.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And she was like, oh, hold on, hold on. You know, maybe you're just not everyone's cup of tea. And I was like, but I want to be everybody's cup of tea. Like, I want everybody to do this. Like, I want to be everybody's cup of tea. It's like, okay, but maybe you're not. And I was like, okay, I don't like that, but okay. And she said, why don't you do this? Why don't you make a list of all of the things that you like about yourself? And I was like, that seems crazy. And I made this list, and I realized that so many of the things that I like about myself are the things that I do think are difficult for people, but they're the things that I like about myself that I'm not afraid to say when I don't think something feels right that I'm not afraid to say when something doesn't feel right for me, no matter how far and deeply into that thing I am, that I have a really loud laugh, like all these different things, right, that make me maybe not everyone's cup of tea and that like totally changed my relationship to those aspects of me that I think I was trying to hide in order to be chosen to be lovable and blah, blah, blah. So I don't know that my discomfort with not being everyone's cup of tea or the unlovability and self loathing that comes up, I don't know that those are ever gonna go away. I think that what I am free from or that I have a different relationship to them. And the same way you say we can do hard things, which I use all the time and is just such a good guiding force, like I can do hard things. I can also be uncomfortable. I can also be comfortable when I'm uncomfortable. I can also be happy even if I don't like how everything's going. I don't know if it's what I'm free from, but I have a larger container now to hold myself. And I know myself really well. And it's taken a lot of time to have the courage to actually live my life as that person. But I have a lot of experience chewing on ground glass and sort of not really and sort of sitting with the discomfort of I might have ruined that thing. You know, my big fear was, am I gonna ruin the course of my destiny if I make the wrong choice? And my spiritual awakening in life has been, I'm okay. You can't ruin it, babe. You okay? That's it. There was no burning bush. It was just, you're okay. And sometimes enough is enough. I don't have to make it better. It's just fine. It's just fine. You're fine, sweetie.

[Amanda]

Fine.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You don't have everything you want. It's fine.

[Abby]

I love your laugh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

My laugh?

[Amanda]

Think about how weak you have a whopper to be everyone's cup of tea. You'd have to be the weakest ass tea.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You'd have to be the weakest ass tea. You have to be water.

[Amanda]

No, you'd have to be water. And you can't even be warm water. You're going to be like lukewarm.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And by the way, not even people don't like water.

[Amanda]

That's right. Some people don't hate water.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's not possible. No, that's right, it's not possible.

[Amanda]

And the more flavorful you are, the narrow your tea audience might be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it Might be a narrow tea audience.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, I do think that your

[Amanda]

audience is pretty damn wide, though, Tracy, also.

[Abby]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know. I think I bug the hell out of a lot of people.

[Amanda]

Not us.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think they're the right ones. I think they're the right ones. Okay, maybe.

[Amanda]

Maybe they're a different cauldron. Then. We are going to let you go,

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

because we could talk forever, but how long have we been talking? Has this been, like, seven hours?

[Amanda]

It's been an hour. It's been an hour. And it's been one of my favorite hours of this entire show.

[Abby]

Seriously.

[Amanda]

And once again, you have shown up with all of your power and vulnerability, and somehow they're the exact same thing. And once again, I just really love you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, I feel the same way. I just want to say to the three Ayas that I'm so grateful. I'm grateful to Amanda to know you, but to also have the honor of being a cauldron sister with you and to live in a world where we can have conversations that are this gentle and real and quiet and loud and that you have these conversations with lots of people, like, what a blessing. And you have them publicly, and then you also have them privately.

[Abby]

Mm.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's a really special thing that I don't think exists everywhere. It's a special thing that you're bringing it into the world, and I'm happy to be a part of it.

[Amanda]

Ugh.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

You're a remarkable human.

[Amanda]

We give you Tracee Ellis Ross. I'm not gonna promise that it's ever gonna get better than that, so just re. Listen, okay? For every other episode.

[Guest Host or Narrator]

Enough is enough.

[Amanda]

Downhill from here.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's enough.

[Amanda]

Enough. And when life gets hard this week, you're gonna remind yourself. It's okay, sweetie.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's okay. It's okay, sweetie. Gentle, gentle, gentle, gentle. I'm right here. Right here. Not going anywhere.

[Amanda]

Bye.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Bye.

[Amanda]

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can can follow us. We can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on TikTok.