What If My Partner’s Jokes Hurt My Feelings?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What If My Partner’s Jokes Hurt My Feelings?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: We Can Do Hard Things
• Host/Author: Glennon Doyle and Audacy
• Description: We Can Do Hard Things tackles the daily struggles we all face by fostering honest conversations about life's toughest challenges. Hosted by Glennon Doyle, her wife Abby Wambach, and her sister Amanda Doyle, the podcast delves into topics such as relationships, mental health, addiction, and more, aiming to lighten lives through shared laughter and tears.

Episode Details:

• Title: What If My Partner’s Jokes Hurt My Feelings?
• Release Date: February 4, 2025

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with a brief advertisement segment, which the hosts swiftly transition from as they welcome listeners to another heartfelt discussion.

Guest Question Introduction

Abby Wambach [02:14]: Opens the episode by expressing excitement for addressing a beloved topic: dealing with personal issues through the lens of helping others navigate their challenges.

Jesse's Dilemma: Hurtful Jokes in a Relationship

Jesse [02:41]: Shares her heartfelt concern about her partner, whom she deeply loves and respects, occasionally making jokes that inadvertently hurt her feelings. Despite communicating her discomfort, her partner dismisses the remarks as unintentional humor, leaving Jesse uncertain about how to bridge the understanding gap.

Analyzing the Impact of Intent vs. Impact

Glennon Doyle [03:45]: Identifies Jesse's situation as a deeply juicy topic and begins to dissect the dynamics at play.

Amanda Doyle [08:40]: Highlights the nuances in their own relationships, noting that playful teasing can sometimes cross into hurtful territory depending on the emotional state of the partners involved.

Glennon Doyle [05:24]: Draws parallels to her own experiences, emphasizing that often, comments about sensitive topics like food or exercise can be more hurtful than intended, elucidating the disconnect between intention and impact.

Understanding Underlying Wounds

Glennon Doyle [07:57]: Suggests that Jesse's partner's hurtful jokes may be triggering past wounds rather than stemming from current intentions. She underscores the importance of recognizing that these remarks are more about Jesse's internal struggles than her partner's deliberate actions.

Abby Wambach [06:26]: Agrees, pointing out that explanations centered solely on intent often fall short. Instead, the focus should shift to the underlying emotional wounds that influence how jokes are perceived.

The Role of Humor in Relationships

Glennon Doyle [08:14]: Explores how humor can either strengthen or strain a relationship. When jokes stem from a place of mutual respect and understanding, they can be bonding. However, when they reveal deeper issues or a lack of sensitivity, they can create rifts.

Amanda Doyle [09:11]: Reflects on her marriage dynamics, noting that while playful teasing is generally positive, it can become problematic when one partner feels their sensitivities are repeatedly disregarded.

Generational Communication Differences

Abby Wambach [12:38]: Discusses how modern communication styles, especially among younger generations, often involve disclaimers like "LOL" after sincere statements, reflecting a hesitance to be vulnerable.

Glennon Doyle [12:40]: Compares this to older generations' use of smiley faces or exclamation points to soften messages, highlighting a generational shift in expressing emotions and humor.

Humor as a Reflection of Inner States

Glennon Doyle [23:26]: Delves into the origins of humor, distinguishing between humor that arises from connection and intimacy versus that which stems from resentment or anger. She emphasizes that the intent behind humor reveals much about the underlying emotional state of the individuals involved.

Abby Wambach [14:32]: Analogizes hurtful jokes to physical actions like hitting, stating that saying "it was just a joke" doesn't negate the emotional impact, much like a hit would.

Navigating Emotional Disconnects

Amanda Doyle [22:35]: Points out that conflicts often arise from misaligned emotional connections, especially during times when partners feel less connected. This disconnection amplifies the impact of seemingly minor jokes or remarks.

Glennon Doyle [16:09]: Introduces a flowchart-like approach to addressing such issues:

1. Identify the Hurt: Determine if the joke reveals an underlying issue or wound in the relationship.
2. Assess Intent vs. Impact: Separate the partner's intent from the emotional impact on the individual.
3. Address the Root Cause: Communicate the preexisting wounds that are triggered by the jokes, fostering mutual understanding.

Creativity and Anxiety: A Secondary Discussion

Towards the latter part of the episode, the hosts address a second question from Rachel about the correlation between creativity and anxiety.

Rachel [27:58]: Inquires about why many creative individuals also struggle with anxiety and depression, and how finding peace seems to diminish their artistic output.

Abby Wambach [29:03]: Explores the intricate relationship between creativity and mental health, suggesting that anxiety might serve as a catalyst for creative expression. She likens artists to visionaries who grapple with the gap between their internal visions and external realities, leading to both profound art and emotional turmoil.

Amanda Doyle [36:12]: Builds on Abby's analogy, comparing creativity to a spectrum between reality and vision, where the tension between the two fuels artistic endeavors and anxiety.

Glennon Doyle [46:00]: Highlights creativity as a coping mechanism, where engaging in creative activities allows individuals to manage anxiety by focusing their energy elsewhere.

Closing Thoughts and Listener Engagement

Abby Wambach [48:16]: Encourages listeners to subscribe to an upcoming newsletter for more personal insights and updates, underscoring the importance of direct communication beyond social media.

Glennon Doyle [51:02]: Guides listeners on how to sign up for the newsletter, emphasizing the significance of staying connected through more intimate channels.

Amanda Doyle [53:35]: Concludes with affectionate remarks, reinforcing the podcast's mission to address and navigate life's hard things together.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Intent vs. Impact: In relationships, it's crucial to differentiate between a partner's intent behind a joke and its emotional impact. Even if the intent is harmless, the effect can be deeply hurtful.

2. Underlying Wounds: Hurtful remarks often trigger preexisting emotional wounds. Understanding these can help in addressing the root cause of the discomfort rather than just the surface-level issue.

3. Role of Humor: Humor can either strengthen or strain a relationship. When it stems from mutual respect and understanding, it fosters connection. However, when it masks deeper issues, it can lead to misunderstandings and emotional distance.

4. Communication Styles: Generational shifts in communication, such as the use of disclaimers like "LOL," reflect changing comfort levels with vulnerability and can impact how humor is perceived in relationships.

5. Creativity and Mental Health: There is a complex relationship between creativity and anxiety. While anxiety can fuel artistic expression, finding peace might alter an artist's creative process, leading to introspection about the sources of their creativity.

6. Active Listening and Empathy: Addressing sensitive issues in relationships requires active listening, empathy, and a willingness to understand each other's perspectives beyond surface-level interactions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Glennon Doyle [07:57]: "It's not about intent. It's about something that happened to me way before."

• Abby Wambach [14:03]: "That was a hit... you misinterpreted it as a hit."

• Glennon Doyle [46:00]: "It's a coping mechanism. It's not just that we're like, oh, if we're anxious, it's... they're directly antithesis of each other."

• Abby Wambach [48:15]: "I just want to be able to reach you about some things that are important coming up that I don't want you to miss."

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This episode of We Can Do Hard Things offers profound insights into navigating the complexities of humor in relationships and delves into the intricate balance between creativity and mental health. Through personal anecdotes and thoughtful discussions, Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle provide listeners with tools and perspectives to better understand and address the hard things they face every day.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things and today we have one of our favorite shows for you which is when we avoid our own problems by trying to solve yours. Yay. This is my comfort zone.

[Amanda Doyle]

What a relief.

[Abby Wambach]

I know right? Isn't this great? Okay, so let's just jump in. Let's just hear from these loves. Let's start with Jesse.

[Jesse]

Hi Glenn and sister and Abby. My name is Jesse. She her and I have a big question for you. My partner is the love of my life. He's so sweet, he's so thoughtful and so kind and our relationship overall is amazing. And sometimes he makes jokes that I just think are hurtful and I have told him and he says they're not mean spirited and he's just joking. But it's hurtful and I can't get past it. And I don't know what to do to make him see my side, because I feel like if he could understand that his impact was not matching his intention and he wouldn't be making the joke. But it's been a real sticking point in our relationship that I really don't know what to do. So if you have any advice, please help me out.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is Juicy.

[Amanda Doyle]

Bueller, anyone?

[Glennon Doyle]

I have something, because I think I understand this. Okay. The context I have for this is in my relationship. We have figured this out with any comments about food or exercise. And so I think the idea is. So in my relationship, John has just learned that he can say absolutely nothing about food. Not even the most benign things, like if I'm saying I've had trouble sleeping or I'm not feeling well. And the obvious answer is, you need to go exercise or you need to eat better. Which is clear. Clearly, everyone knows is the answer. This cannot be said out loud because any kind of suggestion that I should be exercising or that eating a certain thing is better than eating another certain thing is so close to the bone that it just. I actually can't tolerate it. It's so upsetting to me. And I think I understand maybe her partner. Because by any objective measure, that's insane for John not to be able to say what is obvious and objectively true. And when it comes with zero, I have zero data to think that John wishes that I would be anything other than exactly what I am. So it doesn't make sense that I interpret things like him saying, you look healthy to be. You look fat.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, God.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you have had changes to your body and you. Whatever. So notwithstanding that, notwithstanding that, there is zero evidence to support that that is his intention. That is how I am feeling about it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so it was a journey. Right. Because similar to maybe how her partner is saying, but there's no meanness in it. He's feeling the need to defend. Like, I am not being mean. I have no. No meanness in me about it. It's funny. I should be able to say funny things. It could be like that same parallel. Yes. In a neutral world, you should be able to do that. And in a neutral world, my husband should be able to suggest that maybe if I didn't eat six pounds of sugar before bed, I would sleep better. But we don't live in a neutral world. And I think being able to explain to John that this has absolutely nothing to do with what he is bringing with his Comments. It has everything to do with a wound that was existing before I even met him.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. I think 100%. All of that is so clarifying. I feel confused when someone says, well, my intent isn't that. That works for me the first time. What I get confused about is if Jesse's partner is making a joke about a particular thing. Let's just use food, because you're using that example. But insert whatever your sensitivities are. And Jesse explains to her husband or her partner that, I don't think that's funny. That's hurtful to me for this reason. And then it continues to me, the intent argument doesn't work anymore. Right, right.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it's not about intent. I could see I have to live my whole ass life. I like making funny jokes. I like quipping. That's the way that I have endearing. It puts one person against another person. It puts one person's rights against another person's rights, as if that is the battle. But when you say, yes, in a neutral world, I should be able to roll with that. I get that in a neutral world, you should be able to comment about certain things. But that's not like, I need you to see. Not that this is a battle between me and you, but this is a thing that is not about what you're saying. It's about something that happened to me way before.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you saying this very benign thing is activating that piece. It's not a power struggle between me and you about what is funny and what is not. And I think that opens up. People don't have to defend themselves.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, if you say, that's not nice, that's not funny, that's mean, of course they're going to be like, that's not mean for the following 47 reasons. And that's just natural instinct. But I think if you're able to show that it's literally not about them, then I think that you can both stand on the same side and look at it together and be like, oh, shit, that's your thing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's how you feel. That's scary and sad.

[Amanda Doyle]

I think that this is, like, really interesting and helpful the way that you're kind of framing it. Sissy. And you too, Glennon. And I think one of the things that I've noticed in our marriage, that this happens to us because Glennon also likes to have fun and the wit and who can, like, land the thing the fastest. Like, that's part of our marriage dynamic. And I think that rather than Focusing on for us.

[Abby Wambach]

Hold on a second. Can we stop there? Really? You think we have a dynamic of landing jokes and saying things that is not at all how I would characterize it.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, I think that we do have a way with each other that. The way we sometimes we tease and we, like, have fun. And I. I do. I think that we're, like, playful with each other 90% of the time.

[Abby Wambach]

Here we go.

[Amanda Doyle]

It lands. And then there's this 10% gray area where it doesn't. And, Suzy, I love that you're talking about the specificity of some of this, like, jokey, teasy behavior, because I think that's really helpful. I also think that sometimes the 10% gray area just has to do with where we are both at in our collective day, in our collective emotional state. And so it's this being in touch with your partner. And sometimes Glennon will have to say, like, I'm in the 10%. And so it's, like, really helpful for me to be like, okay, like, cool it on any kind of jokesies or tease it or teasing thing, because I.

[Abby Wambach]

Don'T actually like teasing. I don't like it. But there's a playfulness to light, loving teasing that I don't want to eliminate completely because it feels like part of the healthyish carbonation of a relationship. So I don't want to squash it completely. But I'll say specifically, for example, 90% of the time, jokes about teasing about, you know, me leaving things, getting lost or leaving or whatever. The airheady thing. Of. Of situations. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

The bumping the car into the things.

[Abby Wambach]

And the forgetting things. Whatever. It's okay. And. And light. And then 10% of the time, Abby will just say something that she could have said last Tuesday the same way. And I'm like, enough.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Right now. Stop. That does not feel loving. And so we can't figure out if it means that the 90% isn't okay either.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Well, this is what I was gonna say. I think it's important to actually think about the way in which we're all trying to connect in this jokey, teasey way, because I think all of us tend to do it. But what I have actually figured out, which is maybe why you don't think that we tease or joke very much. It's because I actually think that the teasing and joking is trying to communicate something actually real.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

Without saying, that really bothers me. It's a cover. And then the partner gets defensive like, no, I was just joking.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Were you?

[Abby Wambach]

What is a joke?

[Glennon Doyle]

Then you have to be honest about what you're doing.

[Abby Wambach]

It reminds me of, you know, how the kiddos these days, like the millennials and the Gen Zers, whenever they text something, they will be like, this is an example. Mom, I'm scared. Lol. Uh, can you pick up my backpack? Lol. It's like, if anything's too sincere, there has to be an LOL after it. I don't exactly understand, but it's just a disclaimer of maybe this is too vulnerable. Maybe I don't mean this. It's not funny. Nothing they said was funny. Our producer just texted, I do this lol. Like, I don't understand it. Okay, Maybe it's their equivalent of Gen X is how we put smiley faces and exclamation points after things just soften.

[Glennon Doyle]

Or how we write like. Or if. If not, no worries.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. After anything we write. It's like their disclaimer of sincerity. And I do think that I was just joking. Can be a disclaimer of sincerity. Like people who don't know how to communicate things. Like, actually, it makes my life harder that you lose things every day. I actually would prefer not to follow you around the house wondering if your coffee is in the dryer.

[Amanda Doyle]

It was one time, just to be clear.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I don't think we need to get specific, but.

[Amanda Doyle]

But in. In the dryer, inside of it.

[Abby Wambach]

How. How did my coffee mug with coffee in it end up in the clothes dryer? We will never.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I can't tell you because I don't know if we're in a 10% area exactly.

[Abby Wambach]

It's part of my charm. I need a T shirt that says, it's part of my charm. Anyway, the point being, maybe Jesse's partner is trying to communicate something but just constantly putting LOL after it. Because here's the thing. It reminds me of the Forrest Gump. Like, love is as love does just to me, words are communicating. Something that can be loving, can be hurtful. Okay. Just like our bodies can hit each other or hug each other. So if you think of something that words I'm saying can either be a hug or a hit. You don't get to hit somebody in the face. And then when they say ow, you say, but that was just a joke.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was a hug.

[Abby Wambach]

That was a hug.

[Glennon Doyle]

You misinterpreted it as a hit.

[Abby Wambach]

It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how to put it into words. But to constantly say things that are hurtful and then say, you don't get to be sad about that. Because I'm saying these magic words that are, it was just a joke. No, it wasn't. It's not funny. It might be funny to you in your head by yourself. So the next time you want to say that thing, you should go by yourself into a closet and say it. Because it's funny to you, but not to the partner you keep sharing it with.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And we know this with kids. We know with kids when one little kid says to another little kid, you're a stupid idiot. And then the other kid cries. And the first kid said, I was just being funny. We say like, well, do you see how funny only works if you're laughing together?

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it's not funny if the other person is crying. But then we get into adults and then we're like, what's wrong with that other kid? Why are they crying?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the flow chart is, first you're figuring it out. Okay. You have this problem. Your first step is figuring out, is this hurtful to you because there is something underlying in your relationship that makes this hurtful? Do you believe that your partner is harboring this kind of like wishing you would change, holding a resentment that they're unwilling to address directly? So they're sneaking it into these jokes and trying to pretend like they're not doing it? That's the first step. Right. If all of that is not true and you don't have any other data to support that, they are trying to get this meanness to you, but they still can't understand why you're impacted in such a serious way, that they're trying to defend themselves and be like, but I wasn't being. I wasn't hitting you. I wasn't hitting you. Then you go to this next step where you have to figure out what is the legitimate wound preexisting this partner in you did your mom, who always said she loved you, but made merciless fun out of you and laughed about it in front of your friends, and you were supposed to laugh, too, because it was quote unquote funny. What was the thing? What is the thing that is. Or is it the specific substance of the joke? Kind of like me with the food thing? That is just like a pressure cooker spot for you. And you just have to explain and show that it doesn't have anything to do with him and what he can and should be able to get away with. It has to do with who you are as a partner and whether he wants to continue to rip open that wound or not.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Navigating otherness. Isn't it fun?

[Abby Wambach]

And then I did want to say one more thing about this question, because there is a way of reading this question that is that Jesse is struggling with a way that her partner is teasing her, making jokes about her. But there's another way to interpret this question that what if Jesse's partner is making jokes that are universal or a wider. That hurt other people? Do you know what I'm saying?

[Glennon Doyle]

I did not think about that at all in reading that question. But it's such a good point that it's a sticking point for them. She feels bad. She keeps bringing it up to him. And so I wonder if, like, in that first part of the flowchart where, like, is there something that is being revealed through these jokes that he should be bringing to you directly? There's also a sub part of that is, is there something being revealed about him through these jokes that is very upsetting to you?

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, are you. Like, don't say that, because that makes me think you're an asshole or you're a misogynist or you're a. Whatever it is.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so, of course, that's deeply upsetting to her because then she has to confront, is my person a misogynist?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And there's a whole thing about that that we just need to. When people say something that feels hurtful or that feels inappropriate or use a word that is. And look, I'm not talking about the big words. Like, there are words that you can say that mean you're just dead to me forever and it's over. But I'm talking about the whole nuance of the rest of it. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And we have normalized a whole culture where we're supposed to think those things are funny and brush them off even when they're not.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And I think there's, like, this way of some people feel that there's a get out of jail free card, that you can say these things that are in this gray bubble, but if you add, I was joking afterwards, it somehow should be a get out of jail free card. So I just want to be clear. You can think that you can say that. You can keep saying, I was just joking, but what I want you to know is that everyone else in the room, that doesn't change what you just said. And it doesn't have to do with whether what you said is funny to you or somebody else. What happens in the aftermath is that you have revealed something about yourself that now everybody else cannot unknow. And it doesn't have to be that you're an evil person. It just is that you have not done any sort of deep thinking about what you just said. And it reveals something about you to everybody. And it's not. Nobody's asking themselves, is he funny or not. Everybody's just saying, wowza.

[Glennon Doyle]

I didn't know that about him.

[Abby Wambach]

I didn't know that about him. I didn't know that he thought about that issue so little. I didn't know that he was the type of person who would think punching down in any way would be funny. It is an illumination of who you are on the inside, the words that come out of your mouth. And so that is very. When you have a partner like I imagine Jesse could be in this, that is constantly illuminating something about himself in front of other people, it can be humiliating to the partner because by association, it feels like it's illuminating something about Jesse, which is that she's partnered with.

[Glennon Doyle]

This person, or it's illuminating something about their relationship in front. Because the same thing, whether it's, you know, we've all sat in a room at a dinner party where someone is quote, unquote, joking, making fun of their partner, where it is very clear that that joke is illuminating a level of disrespect or contempt or disdain that they have for their partner. And you can't get away with it. It is clear if you are loving and mutually silly with each other and the respect is there, you feel that and it's funny. And if you don't have that, you feel that, and it is awkward as shit. And everyone walks away being like, wow, I didn't know he had such contempt for her. Yeah, that was upsetting. And we were all somehow complicit because we were sitting there taking it. So it's just. Humor is a very tricky, tricky beast. It can endear you. It can bring you together. Like, some of my best bonding with John is humor. I can tell the status of our relationship by the level of silliness and teasing we can do with each other. It's almost like a place we can't go unless we're good.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, totally, totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

And there's other places where it's a place you go when you're not good. And then it's also a place where you're standing on the other side of the Gulf, where one person has a sensitivity that doesn't make sense to the other person until it's shown. And so it's really tricky.

[Amanda Doyle]

Doesn't this kind of just the way you Described it then just made me, like, really see that it's illuminating the possible shared reality that might not be aligned. So one person might be in a different place, connectivity wise to their other partner. And that is why the conflicts happen, because maybe the 90% of the time, Glennon and I are fine. It's because we are connected and we do trust each other, and we do give each other the benefit of the doubt. And then this other period of time, maybe one partner feels a little less connected. And so when these moments happen, it's like, what is the. Not just the wound, but, like, what is the actual state of where we are as a couple?

[Abby Wambach]

What's the quality under it? Like, what if the 10% that we can't ever figure out, why am I triggered right now when I wasn't last week? It could be that there's, like, an energy of vibration in the exact same words that suddenly feel critical. Which makes me think about humor in general. Humor. The word comes from humble. Right? Really, humor is a place where people go to indifferent with different intentions. One of the reasons I love Tig Notaro, who's, of course, one of our dear friends, is that if you watch. I don't think there's anybody funnier than Tig and her standups. And if you watch her standups from beginning to end, there is never a punch down. Not a single one of her jokes takes a victim. Except every once in a while when it's her herself.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Which she doesn't even do that in a punishing way. And so it's this very high level of humor that now we all know we can watch another comedian. Is that humor? Yes, it's humor. Humor. And it has such a different quality. It's biting, it's not humble. There's kind of like a nastiness in it that makes us laugh in a way that doesn't feel quite as good as you do laughing with Tignatar.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it's like a. Oh, gosh, totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

You can tell. I mean, the origin of humor is, like, humid. It's moisture, and it's like this fluid moisture that something grows from. Right. So it's almost like, what is that growing from? Is that growing from a resentment? Is that growing from a connection? Is that growing from an intimacy, or is that growing from an anger? It reveals what is under it. And you can tell. You can tell.

[Abby Wambach]

Cool. Well, there you go, Jesse.

[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Excited to tell you today about MIDI Health. If you have heard our menopause episodes, you know how passionate I feel about women having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives. Here's the deal. If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause. Log on to MIDI Health. I have done this. It is easy. In fact, I have recently been pursuing with MIDI Health hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body. They're clinicians. They meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. It's all through telehealth and 247 messaging and they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at Join Midi. That's Join M I D I.com it's the sweetest time of year. Valentine's Day is right around the corner y'all. And Macy's has the best of the best gifts for everyone you love. From cozy Ugg slippers to the Carolina Herrera Good Girl Liquid Blush, you'll find something perfect for everyone on your list List Macy's Gift Guide is so helpful it has handpicked top gifts to take all the guessing out of the process. Some of the stuff on the list include the Jo Malone Diffuser Beats, headphones, Sonos speakers, and the Breville Espresso Machine. Whatever you choose, you can't go Wrong. What I love about Valentine's Day is it is a fun day to celebrate all the loves in your life. So, for example, Alice recently got into old school photography, so I'm getting her a Fujifilm camera. Middle schoolers apparently need pajama pants for school, so I'm picking up some for my son. And I'm treating myself to an ugg dasha throw blanket because nothing says love like more couch time. Shop now@macy's.com giftguide for all the top picks.

[Abby Wambach]

Let's hear from Rachel.

[Jesse]

Hello, you beautiful human. My name is Rachel, and I just listened to part one of the anxiety episode. Fascinating. My question is around the link between creativity and anxiety and how the creativity kind of pulls you out of it. On it. I've seen a big correlation between most talented created humans also being extremely anxious or struggling with depression and anxiety and all of those things. And have even seen some artists or singers, when they find more peace in their life, their art really changes or they stop creating altogether, at least at the same level. So I guess my question is, why is that? Is it kind of a chicken or egg thing? And, you know, it seems like the struggle and anxiety fuel some of the most beautiful things that have ever been created. So we just love your thoughts. Thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so Rachel just asked the question that I might swirl around the most. I think this is so fascinating. And being a person who is in this world thinks of themselves as an artist and a writer and has a million writer artist friends. I have had so many fascinating conversations about this, and I feel like I could talk about it a million different ways on a million different days. But I'd like to address the specific thing that Rachel talks about, which is, is the anxiety fueling the art in a way that when peace comes, the art suffers. When the artist stops suffering as much does the art suffer, and does the artist need to suffer to create good art? And why do people who naturally suffer become artists or vice versa? It's just like she said, the chicken and an egg thing. Okay, I'm gonna say one thing and then argue with myself on the other side. I sometimes feel like, yes, it does feel like artists have more dramatic highs and lows, whatever you call anxiety and depression. We also know more about artists. Like, in our particular culture, people who make movies and TV shows and books and all of these things are just more visible, discussed more. They're the people we've decided should have spotlights on them, which I think is arbitrary and weird. Like, I sometimes think, why don't teachers and doctors. Why don't we have the magazines full of them? But, okay, since we know more about them and since they reveal their insides as their profession, we see their insides, okay? It's possible that if you sit down and ask a hundred doctors and teachers to pour their insides out, we would see more anxiety, depression, complexity. But that's not their job. They have to actually do stuff. So they can't just walk around emotionally and spiritually bleeding, like artists do on a regular basis. So there's that. I also think that there are people in cultures since the beginning of time who, for whatever reason, nature, nurture, spiritual reasons, trauma, whatever, become visionaries for the group, for the culture, okay? And this is just studyable. It's the medicine men. This is since the beginning of time. Every culture has people who. Their job is to be a little weird and, you know, stand on the bow of the Titanic. And while everyone else is keeping things moving, say, I think I see an iceberg. Iceberg, iceberg. And everybody else is like, all right, she's screaming about an iceberg. Do we think this one is real? You know, these are the prophets in the desert, screaming to the. These. Okay? The person. Who is that person who we would call an artist, whether a highly sensitive person, whether they're in a family or in a culture, in a neighborhood, the reason they are that is because they have this weird internal vision of how things could be. All right? So they see what's on the outside of the world, what's visible, the order of things. But they have this internal vision of how it could be, how it should be, a more beautiful version of whatever they're looking at. Their family, their marriage, their community, their world. They carry around with them this internal longing, this vision. There is a gap between what they see every day outside of them and the vision, the internal vision, a huge gap between what is and what they know could be. And that gap is the anxiety and the depression. The stronger the internal vision, the more dramatic and hard the gap is between. Imagine if you were looking at a situation and every part of your being knew that person would hurt less, that community would be better off if everybody just. And you had this heaviness that was a knowing. You know, the bigger the vision, the bigger the gap. I think that that is an oversimplified way of presenting it, but it's part of the beauty of being an artist. And the burden of being an artist is carrying a vision that you can't necessarily get everybody on board with unless you struggle in the dark to pull the Vision out of your body and somehow put it into words that other people can see and act upon. To bring your idea of heaven to earth, on earth as it is in heaven is how I think of artists. Like, the heaven is the internal beauty, beautiful family relationship, community, world that I can almost see and touch. And my job is to bring it to the earth in a way that everybody can see it as possible. Marching orders, which can feel fricking hard and heavy because we can never figure out how to actually put the unseen order into action.

[Amanda Doyle]

The way that you explained it made me think of, like, creativity on one end of the spectrum and reality and truth on the other. So you're saying an artist, their job is to look out and see what is true, what is happening, and to be extraordinarily honest. And I think that that's one of the things that I think about you, that I respect and admire so much, is your ability to see what is happening and to be honest about it. So many of us, myself included, we walk around the world, and I want to, like, pretend that reality is somewhere more in the middle, in between, a beautiful version, a different version of heaven. And then artists live on the truth side. And what you're saying is the vision is over on the other side of the spectrum. And the anxiety, I think, lives when you are just in the noticing of what is, rather than trying to go and create what it could be. So does this make any sense? There's a spectrum, and one side is the way things are, and the other side is the way things could be. And that gap is where some artists might experience this anxiety, where you're closer to the way things are before we get to the way things could be.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And think about the fact that when an artist or. Okay, I'll use myself for an example. I could not figure out how to. To make my primary romantic relationship be even close to as true and beautiful as I believed two people can be together. I'm talking about my first marriage. It was.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was like, whoa.

[Abby Wambach]

No, my first marriage. Like, I. Oopsies. All of my writing was pointing towards that. I can't even look at Love Warrior anymore. I feel heartbroken for both of us. For Craig and me, it was an anxious struggle to be like, this isn't it? Like, how do we make it better? It was the gap between what was the kind of marriage we had and what I had inside of me as a vision for what a marriage could be between two people. The gap was so vast that it was so painful. Okay. And some Good art came out of it. Yes. When I met you and we built this life together, the gap is not there anymore. I mean, I've got other gaps, but like the gap, it's not the easiest thing. I mean, we work for it, but there's not a gaping gap anymore. And I stopped writing. Like, I didn't. What Rachel is saying is there is a truth in it. When the gap is lessened between what a person like me knows could be and then they finally get the thing, there is less of an internal struggle to describe the gap, to point people towards the gap, to like be the prophet in the desert of the marriage going ica dah, like put on your hair shirt. There just is a sort of ah. That then relates in less struggling art. So you all know I've been using Bokeh for a while now, and I'm into it. Okay. This is like the new toothpaste with lots of different flavors and it's kind of making my mornings and evenings a little bit more delightful. Bokeh is on a mission to inspire more mindful oral care. Their toothpaste is free from fluoride, parabens, sls and artificial additives. It's powered by nature. It's a clean, safe way to keep your mouth and body happy. And they have delightful and delicious flavors like element. And they also offer cool ones like cocoa, ginger and lemon lavender. And they've got kid friendly flavors like orange, cream, watermelon, mint and new strawberry mango. For a limited time, Bokeh is offering listeners 15% off its best selling toothpastes on Amazon and bokeh.com with code Glennon15. That's Glennon15. Make the switch to Bokeh for the whole family.

[Glennon Doyle]

One of my favorite parts about the holiday this year was our recent stay when we went to go visit Glenn and Abby's family in la, but we stayed in our own Airbnb a few blocks away. It was the best of both worlds because look, you've got your privacy, you've got your own refrigerator, you've got your own beds, multiple beds, by the way, and your own bathroom. And you know what? Then you can have your own bedtimes. It was just so nice to wake up in our own cozy place and have our own family time and then rejoin the larger family for the Christmas festivities and then retreat when everyone needed a little breather. So here's the deal. Whether you're traveling with family or friends, those extra rooms, the fully stocked kitchen, not only saves you a bunch of money, but it also Makes a huge difference. If you're flying solo, you can make your stay your own little sanctuary. If you're planning a winter getaway this year, I highly recommend giving airbnb a try. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret. This thing that you're talking about, the distance between what is and what could be is so fascinating. It's almost like there was something in you and you needed to get it out of you. You needed to make it real. You needed it not to be an idea inside of you, so you needed it to be embodied, tangible. It's like, what else is life of? Like, we have this little minute, right? And we've got to get what is in us out of us, because we know us is going. So you got it out of you in Love Warrior in the book, because you couldn't make it real in your life you could touch. And then you and Abby, you got it out of you and Abby. Like, you have that now. You don't need to create an alternate vision and version of it in a book. And I'm thinking about. This is so wild, but I'm thinking about Ina Garten. I'm thinking about what makes an artist an artist. What's the difference between someone who's selling shit and someone who's an artist? And I think it's that thing. They're motivated to get the thing out of them. I went to go see her, and she was talking about she once had a Boston cream pie in Boston, and she had a vision for. I'm going to make this Boston cream pie, and I'm going to have some orange flavor in it or whatever. She came home, she made a Boston cream pie. She was like, this isn't it. This isn't it. 10 years.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, God, I love her.

[Glennon Doyle]

She made 1,000 versions of the Boston cream pie. Like, I'm telling you, the first one would have been good enough to go in her cookbook and sell a bazillion teen copies like she does. It wasn't having a recipe that was sellable enough to go in her book. It was. I had the vision. I can see the orange Boston cream pie. I can taste the way it's going to taste, and I won't stop until I taste that in my mouth.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Until I've made it out.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, that's. That's artistry. The gap between existing Boston cream pies and the truest, most beautiful Boston cream pie she could possibly imagine was insufferable to her. Yeah. The gap between the two, the fact that that hadn't been born onto the earth was so insufferable to her that she was willing to spend years making sure that she brought to earth the heavenly cream pie that was being born inside of her. That is artistry.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. Knowing that we wouldn't know the difference between year 3 and year 10. Like, we're so stupid out here. It was her thing, she needed for herself.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

One thing I remember was a concern of yours when you were at the early stages of your eating disorder diagnosis and the recovery was this kind of correlation between anxiety and creativity. And that when you are tapped into this kind of anxiety and depression and all of that comes with it. I think that there was a part of you, because you're an artist and you do kind of. And have kind of switched, swayed between these two poles. I think you were nervous. If you were going to actually get well and maybe deal with this anxiety and depression, that would there be any creativity left? Could you muster the creativity? Is the anxiety something inside of you that's creating the creativity?

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly. I do worry about that and I don't have a like a super great answer. I haven't figured it out completely, but I'll tell you, I've written 50,000 words. I've written a book's worth of essays about that time and I will probably never publish them. There's an energy that I'm not interested in exploring publicly right now. There's something about that sort of suffering. It was all real and it's all part of the journey I've been on to be freer. But at the moment, I'm not interested in dragging people back into that energy. I think it's a place I can get stuck and I think it's too easy for me at this point. It's almost like trauma bonding. It's like trauma bonding or something. I don't know. I can't figure it out. It's just not the truest, most beautiful version of what I think we all need next, is what I can say. But I also sometimes think it's not. We write and we create for the same reason. People who are stressed out, they tell you to breathe deeply. It's like when you focus on your breathing, you can't focus on your spinning mind because you can't focus on both things at the same time. Okay. It's not just that breathing deeply gives you more oxygen, which makes your brain work better. It's not just that people say stop and focus on your breathing because you literally cannot do Both at the same time. You can't spin out and concentrate on your spinning thoughts and concentrate on your breath. So one of the reasons why anxious people create. Go to the page, go to the paintbrush, go to the. Is because you cannot be anxious and creative simultaneously.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a coping mechanism.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a coping mechanism. It's not just that we're like, oh, if we're anxious, it's. They're directly antithesis of each other.

[Glennon Doyle]

So it's almost like the anxiety is a causal connection with the art as opposed to the art of the anxiety.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly, yeah. So maybe we create for the same reason. We go for a walk or we. In some ways it's very lucky to have that thing because lots of people have these anxious feelings and depressive feelings and don't have an outlet like that. I mean, we have a kid who we really didn't know which way it was going to go in terms of their sensitivity and their spinning out and their existential, you know, and they found art and a lot changed. Their beingness changed because they had an outlet, they had a go to thing. So there's that. I mean, I do wonder if I write again. When I write again, which I will, I don't know. I just want it to be from a different energy. I do want to be as honest as humanly possible as always, but I don't want it to all be from suffering.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, why does it have to be suffering? It reminds me of the Martha Beck where it's like all of your stuff has come from sadness, but joy is an equally vast.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why can't it come from that?

[Abby Wambach]

That's what I want because I care about what I'm putting out in the world. But also because when you're a person who is writing about suffering, then that's all you're thinking about and that's all you're looking for. And so of course, that's what magnifies. I always think, what if I just wanted to. If I had a project where I was like, I am going to look for and write from joy, from that, well, I wonder if my entire life would change because that's what I would be looking for. That's what. What you seek, you find, you know, if I'm a photographer and my book is about suffering, then that's what I'm living in. If I'm a photographer and my book is about hummingbirds and flower anyway, do you know what I'm saying? It's just like it would be an interesting experiment to Try next.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, then I propose we change the name of this podcast.

[Abby Wambach]

We Can Do Easy Things.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

We Can Do Beautiful Things.

[Glennon Doyle]

We Can Do Beautiful Things.

[Amanda Doyle]

Problem solved.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Thank you, Rachel.

[Glennon Doyle]

I also would recommend if this is a fascinating topic for people to Listen to, episode 141 with Sara Bareilles, because she talked over and over about how she thought sadness was her identity and that was from where her art came from and her decision to start medication and how scary that was for her and what she found on the other side of it. And it's. That was a beautiful conversation.

[Abby Wambach]

And one last thing I want to say, because this is completely related. I. In terms of intention and writing and creativity, all of you listening know that I have been on a journey of thinking about social media and what it's for and how it affects artists and how it affects all of our human brains. And I have removed myself personally from social media. We still have a presence there where we put out what we think you'll want to see and what will be important to you. But I don't feel like I can be my most creative, honest self there or that I even should be, or that that's what it's for. And I don't honestly love the idea of hosting a loving party there anymore, meaning I don't love the idea of even having you there with me. I just. I want a truer, more beautiful place for us. But I do miss writing to you. I do miss being in touch with you. I have felt it so much more recently with the fires in LA and wanting our community and wanting to be talking to you and. So anyway, all of this is to say I am going to ask you if you are interested in hearing from me directly, hearing from Abby directly, hearing from Sister directly, hearing what we have to say about our work or about our days to consider giving us your email address. Because I think I'm going to start a newsletter that I. And we write directly to you. I don't know how. I'm not going to. I don't know how often, but I just know that there are actually. There's a big project going on that I want to tell you about that I know you're gonna be excited about. And I just.

[Amanda Doyle]

So exciting. Oh, my God. I can't help.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. I can't believe we can't talk about it yet. I'm like peeing in my.

[Abby Wambach]

It's big. It's gonna be something that you all are gonna want to be a part of and that we've had you in mind for every step of this, which we've been working on something for the last two years. Anyway, give me your email addresses, okay? You know that I will never sell your email addresses, okay? I don't know how to do that if I could, but I will not.

[Glennon Doyle]

And she won't even let me sell them.

[Abby Wambach]

So, no, I will protect your email addresses with my little life, okay? But I just want to be able to reach you about some things that are important coming up that I don't want you to miss. And then I also just want to be able to pour out my heart somewhere sometimes when in a way that doesn't have a freaking evil algorithm attached to it and isn't jacking up your nervous systems while we all work together to get some peace and agency back in our lives. So can you tell me, sister, how to tell them to give them my email addresses?

[Glennon Doyle]

Sure thing. So if you are currently on social and you're following Glennon on Instagram, you go to her page and you click the link in the bio. That's the one website that is showing, you know, on her Instagram page. The second button down after you click that link will take you to a place where you can enter your email address and then we can add you to the newsletter. Also, if that seems too complicated and you're not on IG, you can just go to GlennOnDoyle.com in the middle of the page, there'll be a little box that says your email and then a button by it that says sign up and that's it. Not selling anything, not doing anything like that. Worst case, if you have trouble, you can go to Glennon Doyle and then there's a connect link at the top. That connect will also take you to a page where you can sign up for the newsletter. So lots of options, but glennon doyle.com or the link in the bio on IG. And also it is true, like there's a lot of really cool things coming up and it's very toxic and gross on social media and also ineffective to tell people about things because just a very small percentage of you all will see see what we post. And there's really stuff you're going to want to see. So we'll do the updates there without.

[Abby Wambach]

Giving away too much. Just listen to me, please, when I tell you that there's going to be a time very soon where we're going to send important stuff out on that email and the thing that we're doing is going to be filled up really fast and then you're going to be upset and you're going to write to me and say, and I just know this from many lo so many times this has happened. Just trust me. I can't tell you why, but just please sign up, get your email address there and then you'll find out the information and then you'll be able to make all of your choices before it's too late. Okay? I love you. Thanks for listening. I feel so delighted. And now we go back to our actual life and our actual problems. Thank you for allowing us to get.

[Amanda Doyle]

Distracted by yours, Boo.

[Abby Wambach]

We love you potspud. We'll see you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to Weekend Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the Weekend Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our Executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.