What Is Our Rage Telling Us? with Dr. Becky Kennedy (Best Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Is Our Rage Telling Us? with Dr. Becky Kennedy"

Introduction

In the "We Can Do Hard Things" podcast episode titled "What Is Our Rage Telling Us? with Dr. Becky Kennedy," host Glennon Doyle, alongside co-hosts Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle, delves deep into the complex emotions surrounding anger, particularly focusing on "mom rage." Dr. Becky Kennedy, a renowned clinical psychologist and bestselling author, joins the conversation to unpack the origins, implications, and strategies for managing rage in parenting and beyond.

Defining Mom Rage

The discussion begins with an exploration of "mom rage," a term that encapsulates the intense frustration and anger many mothers experience. Dr. Becky Kennedy clarifies that mom rage is not indicative of being a bad parent or possessing a flawed character. At [09:01], she states:

"What mom rage means is it's this combination of not having our needs met, not having any skills to manage anger, which is one of our most important protective emotions, and shame."

This definition underscores that mom rage arises from unmet personal needs and societal pressures, compounded by feelings of shame.

Causes of Mom Rage

Several factors contribute to the manifestation of mom rage:

1. Unmet Needs: Glennon Doyle shares a personal anecdote about feeling overwhelmed and eventually slamming a bathroom door in frustration ([07:02]). This act symbolizes the breaking point when personal needs are consistently ignored.

2. Lack of Anger Management Skills: Dr. Becky emphasizes that without the tools to process anger constructively, it can escalate into rage. This escalation is often a cry for attention to one's own needs.

3. Shame: Society often stigmatizes expressions of anger in mothers, leading to internalized shame. This shame can prevent mothers from seeking help or acknowledging their feelings, exacerbating the rage ([09:50]).

4. Societal Expectations: Abby Wambach highlights the unrealistic expectations placed on mothers to be endlessly patient and self-sacrificing. She notes:

   "Moms do we even feel angry? We feel guilty." ([27:02])

   The myth that mothers can handle limitless demands without faltering creates an environment where rage becomes inevitable.

Impact on Parents and Relationships

Mom rage significantly affects the parent-child relationship and the well-being of the mother:

• Emotional Strain: Mothers often grapple with guilt and fear of judgment, believing that expressing anger means they are failing in their role.

• Intergenerational Effects: Dr. Becky discusses how coping with anger influences how mothers model behavior for their children, potentially perpetuating cycles of unmanaged emotions.

• Self-Identity: Expressions of rage can lead mothers to question their worth and capabilities, fostering a negative self-image.

  "I am a good person who is having a hard time." ([30:21])

  This affirmation helps in separating self-worth from momentary emotional lapses.

Strategies for Managing Rage

Dr. Becky Kennedy provides actionable strategies to help parents manage and understand their rage:

1. Grounding Techniques: After experiencing a rage moment, engaging in sensory breathing or naming objects in the environment can help regain composure ([31:12]).

2. Self-Compassion: Cultivating a compassionate narrative towards oneself helps in mitigating shame and promoting healing.

   "I am a good person who's having a hard time." ([30:21])

3. Reframing Anger: Viewing anger as a signal of unmet needs allows mothers to address the root causes rather than suppressing emotions.

   "When you have a rage moment, recognize it as your body telling you something important." ([13:12])

4. Setting Boundaries: Prioritizing self-care by carving out time for personal needs is crucial. Dr. Becky advises:

   "Carve out time for my mom rage course. It is an hour. And I mean this." ([45:42])

5. Practical Tools: Implementing simple changes, such as protecting blocks of time in one's calendar labeled "My needs matter. Do not cancel," reinforces the importance of self-care ([49:36]).

Societal and Cultural Considerations

The conversation also touches upon how societal and cultural factors influence the perception and expression of anger:

• Racial and Cultural Dynamics: Dr. Becky acknowledges the additional layers of complexity faced by women of color in expressing rage without facing societal repercussions.

  "In my community, anger is terrifying, is bad, is wrong. The idea that anger could be connected to self-worth is a complete 180." ([40:09])

• Privilege and Visibility: White women may find it easier to voice their anger without the same level of scrutiny or threat of child welfare interventions that women of color might face.

  "You're right. There is an inherent privilege we all have here." ([41:43])

This highlights the necessity for inclusive dialogues that recognize and address these intersecting identities.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the importance of acknowledging and addressing rage as a legitimate emotion. By understanding the underlying needs that anger signals and implementing practical strategies to manage it, mothers can foster healthier relationships with themselves and their children. Dr. Becky Kennedy encourages listeners to seek support and engage in resources like her "mom rage course" to continue their journey towards emotional well-being.

"We love you, Dr. Becky. Your needs matter. Do not cancel." ([50:03])

This powerful closing statement encapsulates the episode's central message: embracing one's humanity and prioritizing self-care is essential in navigating the challenges of motherhood and beyond.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And it took some time, but I'm finally fine.

[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We have one of our dearest pod friends here with us today.

[Abby Wambach]

She's a pod icon.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's a pod icon is what she is.

[Abby Wambach]

She's a podcon.

[Glennon Doyle]

She's a podcon. She's just out there changing lives all over the place. Dr. Becky Kennedy is here today. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, mom of three. She's rethinking the way we raise our children and in that, she's making us all rethink everything in the world. She's she has been named the Millennial Parenting Whisperer. Which honestly kind of annoys me because I feel like that is really ignoring all of Gen X. As per usual. But that's fine. By Time magazine. Dr. Becky is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Good Inside A guide to becoming the parent you want to be. Which is just even if you're not a parent, just by the way, none of that matters. It doesn't matter if you're not a parent, because everything that Dr. Becky says applies to every relationship in your life and maybe most importantly, your relationship with yourself.

[Abby Wambach]

Totally. And how to reparent yourself helps me reparent myself.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. She is the founder of the Good Inside membership platform and host of the chart topping podcast, good inside with Dr. Becky. Babe, tell Dr. Becky what happened this morning at your big, loud, sweaty gym.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. So sitting there, and usually there's like a few. Few minutes before everybody gets started, and this gentleman in there, he was talking about his three year old and a new baby on the way, and all the other women were giving him notes and he said, well, have you ever heard of Dr. Becky? And I said, no, I'm actually speaking with her today. And he was like, are you kidding me? She's guiding me and my wife through this process of parenting. And I just thought that that was a little fun, little tidbit. It's not just the moms of the world. The. The fathers of the world are Hearing you loudly, Dr. Becky.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love the idea of just these dudes doing those weights and grunting and then saying, have you heard of Dr. Becky in between.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I feel like that's a revolution.

[Abby Wambach]

It is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hi.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Hi, guys. No, thank you. Thank you. I mean, that's. You always, you three always know how to make me feel good. I woke up really early today. It was one of those tough nights of sleep and so sudden boost of energy seeing you three. Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, we talked recently about. We're always just like, can you come back? And then like, what do you wanna talk about? Just tell us when you get here. Dr. Becky. We know it's gonna be good, but you asked if we could talk about.

[Abby Wambach]

Mom rage, and I was like, what's that?

[Glennon Doyle]

Right, right. So sister didn't even know of what you speak. And I have been thinking a lot about it since you suggested that we discuss mom rage. And I want to say before we start that everything we're going to discuss today I have applied to wife rage, woman in culture rage, sensitive human rage, queer rage, news rage. Like it applies to every part of our lives. What we're going to discuss today with which is rage, why we have it, and what we do with it, but starting with mom Rage I love because I've been thinking this morning about when I was raising my little ones when they were little. I will tell you, mom, rage for me doesn't last when they're older. It's different now. I mean it's a little bit of a mom low grade terror, but it's not the same as when you're raising young kids. And I remember, Dr. Becky, I was thinking about whether I was gonna tell this story or not. And I am gonna tell it because we're never allowed to tell these stories and we're always afraid they're gonna come take our kids away. And my kids are pretty much grown, so almost emancipated.

[Abby Wambach]

So good luck. Come get em.

Old enough ish.

[Glennon Doyle]

So if you wanna come get em, that's fine. I'm not sure what you're gonna do with them, but I just wanna say that I remember I actually wrote in Carrie on Warrior that while my kids were little I felt like a dormant volcano. Like I was constantly just going to explode at any moment and trying to look calm. And I want to say I was trained for raising small children. I was an early childhood education major, I was a teacher of children. So I had every single skill you're supposed to have to be able to do this. Well, most people are just like, I don't know, they're a freaking engineer and somebody gives them a child and they have to figure it out. So I don't know how people do that. I will tell you that I had one moment, many moments. But I'll tell you about one where I had one in the tub. It was after a 12 hour day of being alone with three kids talking to no one. I had one in the tub. One very cranky one who wouldn't stop screaming and another one who was like hungry and needed dinner. And I was sitting by the tub. It had been after a very long day. And the very cranky one who was standing in the hallway, she came and she started screaming again.

[Abby Wambach]

I can't believe you're gonna tell this story.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I just took the door of the bathroom and Dr. Becky, I slammed that fucking door so hard in this child's face. She was three, slammed the door so hard, so close to her that it scared the living hell out of her. It scared the living hell out of me. And we recovered. I didn't know about repair back then, so I think I just said that it was the wind.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a windy, windy bathroom, but I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just want to start. There's probably so many people Listening, who have done things that are not that dramatic, who have done things that are more dramatic. And we're never allowed to talk about it because, well, we're going to talk about why we can't talk about it. But I remember mom rage all too well. So, Dr. Becky, what is mom rage?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

First of all, thank you for sharing that story. And I also. Let me just start right away. Yes. I've had moments where I look at myself after. They're like such out of body moments. I was like, did I just say that to my kid? Did I just use that tone? I don't believe in calling my kid a spoiled brat and saying this whole lecture and shooting these dart eyes. And I too have been there. I think every parent who loves their kid has been there. So, you know, when I think about what mom rage is, I actually think it's helpful first to say what it isn't. Because mom rage does not mean you're a bad parent. It does not mean you're a monster. It does not mean there's something wrong with you. It does not mean you've messed up your kid forever. It doesn't mean any of those things.

[Glennon Doyle]

Great.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

To me, what, what mom rage means is it's this combination of not having our needs met, not having any skills to manage anger, which I'm sure we'll get to, is one of our most important protective emotions. And shame. Right. And just sharing stories can help with that element. Not having your needs met, not having skills to manage anger and shame is a very, very combustible situation. And then it takes, as we all know, one tiny thing. And it is the match for this really explosive scary moment. And you said it, Glenn, in a way that it's scary to us. Like it's scary to yourself, you know, as well as to other people.

[Abby Wambach]

I just feel like it's made to be this deficiency of. Of like you don't have what it takes. But for me, I feel like it's just like proof of human limit. There is a limit to one's capacity to respond to demands. Demands of physical touch or mental load or incessant problem solving. Or just like the verbal abuse that children pill us.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, what the hell.

[Abby Wambach]

It is the sensory overload, the time requirements. Like, even by tiny humans that you love, there is a limit. And so mom rage just occurs at the intersection between all of those demands and the human limit of you. And it should be unsurprising, but it isn't. Because we have this myth that if a mom loves her kids enough, there will be no limit. And she will find a. A never ending well of patience and whatever resources to draw upon. But that isn't true. Humans have limits, and we butt up against them. And if other people, like, for example, if there's no such thing as dad rage, perhaps that just means that they are not in the position to butt up against those limits as much as moms are.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

To me, this way of describing it is really powerful as, like a reframe, right? It's like a metaphor. Okay? So to me, what moms do, okay, is metaphorically with our emotions, right? We feed everybody. We feed everybody around us. We put things on the calendar, we show up for them, we go to soccer games, we do all of the things. And if you think about that as food, you're constantly feeding your kids, or maybe even probably also family members around you. And if you think about what it would be like at the end of day one when you fed everyone else, but literally never fed yourself, you'd probably be hungry. Okay, but now it's day two. Now it's day three, and your body is probably giving you signals that you need to eat. And women have become expert at avoiding and pushing away those signals because acknowledging and taking care of our own needs has probably been learned to be threatening in our earliest relationships. So we ignore and we ignore and we ignore. Okay, well, what would happen if you went a week without eating? Actually think about how loud the signal would need to be in your body to get you to eat. I know in my body you would have to be like, becky, like, stop. I have tried to have hunger signals in your stomach. I have tried to alert you, and I am actually going to scream out and. And take over your entire body to protect you. Because anything at a lower level has not been heard. Like, when I think about moms and our needs in this way. Because anger at the end of the day is just a feeling that tells you what you need. That's what anger is. And by the time it converts to rage, we're starving. We're starving. Hmm.

[Glennon Doyle]

Isn't it interesting that anger is what tells us what we need? And anger is shamed out of women? So why would that be? Because if women start listening to anger as a signal towards what we need and start demanding it and taking it, then all of culture must be rearranged.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

All of it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And we can break this down to be smaller, right? Because I know sometimes I'm like, okay, my day to day life, you know, I don't know if I'm changing Patriarchy on my own. But like, how does this just even apply in our day to day lives? For anyone listening, we all have many anger signals really reframed as something I might need for myself. It might be as simple as I've been running around my house. I just need to sit on my couch. I need to sit on my couch for five minutes in relative stillness. Or I need, I don't know, to see my friends. Like I need to see my friends. Separate from our kids. There are these needs we have. And when you pause and connect that to anger, we're probably actually not just angry at our kids. We're angry because our body is saying, yes, you have a legitimate need and you haven't taken care of that need in a long time. And then what we say to ourselves is, what's wrong with me? I'm a horrible parent. We push it away. And yes, any feeling we put a lot of energy toward pushing down has that much more energy to spring out of our body in a, you know, inopportune moment.

[Abby Wambach]

And this is why so many women out there, mothers especially, but so many women struggle to know what they want because they've put so many other people's needs in front of their own. I mean, stuff like what do I want for dinner? It's like a foreign concept. And then that's also angering. How do I not know what I want? Well, it's this whole system and you're doing it also to yourself in these family dynamics that you just keep giving instead of taking.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think it's annoying, Dr. Becky, that it's called mom rage because like road rage is people getting mad because there's too much traffic. So like, why is it called mom rage instead of like too many demands and not enough needs met bullshit rage? Do you know what I mean? Why don't we have another name for it? Because that's that that shames the person, that shames the mother. Like it's something wrong with me as opposed to it's. There's something wrong with the system in my home or in my culture where I am supposed to be superhuman.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah, I appreciate that. Reframe. I mean, I guess to me, the way I see it and why I think mom rage is just almost useful to compare to dad rage as an example, is I think the reason for dad rage, they're generally different societal, sociological reasons. So when I think about the term mom rage, I don't think about it as much as blame, but differentiating. Like, why do women tend to have anger Separately, when they're parents from maybe their male counterparts. But certainly our anger comes from the system that was not set up, you know, to support us, to help us.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it makes it seem like when you say mom rage, it makes it seem like it has to do with the relationship between the mother and the child. And that's what pisses me off, because actually, it's not my fault. And, kiddo, it's not your fault. We don't have enough help around here. This mom rage thing is robbing both of us. It's not a kid's fault at all. So it doesn't really have to do with the relationship as much as lack of support around the relationship.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is mom rage more common for some moms than others? Or do. Are there people. Are there moms that don't have mom rage? I haven't met any.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes. I think that before we become parents, we probably don't. We think a lot about swaddles and things like that. But probably any of us now who are parents look back saying, I think what probably really mattered was checking in about my boundary setting is checking in about how am I at doing things for myself, even if it involves inconveniencing others. Those things pre exist having kids. We all have kind of different tendencies there. They then get massively exacerbated when we have kids, because being a mom is being put into this caregiver role. And if at that point you haven't established, for many reasons, kind of practices around setting boundaries, thinking about what you need, proactively taking care of yourself, Abby, what you said, I think about that a lot. Most women, you know your needs when they're not met, as opposed to proactively asking for them to be met. But that probably predated having kids also. Right. And so I think that the moms who don't struggle with this as much, we all get there, I think would say, yeah, I actually do feel decent about setting boundaries. I do feel okay holding those boundaries. Even when people are upset. I don't tend to feel responsible for other people's feelings. I care about other people's feelings, don't get me wrong. But I don't feel responsible for changing the way I live my life when I know I'm doing something good for myself just because other people are upset. Yes. And that is why, to me, the system 100% has to change. And I also believe there's things we can do as individuals while we're waiting that really help us build boundaries, help us protect our time, that's really important proactively. So we're all just a little bit less vulnerable to those moments that, again, really feel bad for us.

[Abby Wambach]

And again, when we build those boundaries. And I think about our family system a lot, Glennon, and I take a lot of time during the day to make sure that we are taking care of ourselves. And what we're teaching our kids, our daughters especially, is that that's paramount. Take care of yourself. Put your mask on first before you can go out and help the other people. So this isn't just about you. This is also teaching our children how we get to set our own boundaries for their futures in their lives.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes. And, Glennon, that's the line I think I see quoted almost as much as anything else from Untamed is the way we parent is the model for our kids. We don't wanna continually pass on the idea that motherhood is not martyrdom. And you don't pass that on with your language. You pass it on because your kids are watching your decisions. Right. I mean, here I am in California on a work trip, and, you know, before I left, yeah, two of my kids were like, why are you? Like, why are you going? And you're missing this 100% legitimate feelings. And, you know, to me, it was very important to say, look, I. I understand that you're feeling this way, and here's what I'm doing on this trip, and I want to be honest with you, I feel really lit up by those things. Like, I love those. And I actually. I'm not trying to even say. And that makes me a better mom to you. I don't even know. Like, I think it's so interesting how we've had to justify self care as a form of caregiving. It's, like, very odd to me. Like, why don't I just deserve that period? You know?

[Abby Wambach]

And I'm resting because it makes me more efficient later. It's like, no resting to rest, assholes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah, exactly. Right. And so, yes, and I do think about the intergenerational impact of. I feel so strongly in my own small family of at least knowing there'll be three kids out there and if they choose to have partners who say, oh, motherhood is not self sacrifice. That's not what it is.

[Abby Wambach]

I love the psychologist Zillman, who is the one that figured out that the psychological effects of rage can last for days and that the rage builds on rage so that you have these, like, repeated aggravations that they call a stage sequence of provocations that build on each other. So the last one is when you lose your entire shit. And I was like, what is motherhood other than a sequence of provocations? Like, there, that is the definition. And I feel like it's important to call out the elephant in the room, which is like, you can have boundaries with partners and work people and figure that out. But let's be real that, like, often a parent's relationship with their kids is one that in any other context we would describe as a bad relationship.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So one sided.

[Abby Wambach]

My dad not treat us well. And if you had a friend that was in a relationship with someone who talked to them like your toddler talks to them, you would insist that her dignity and mental health requires that she leave their ass. But we can't. And so these provocations, like, it's different in some ways, right? Like they can treat us like absolute shit and we just have to be provoked and keep trucking. Like this is a reality. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Dr. Becky, maybe you should talk to.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

The kids, you know? You know, I know it's often the quickest solution. People say, but like, can't you just help my kid not do these things? And then I won't react that way.

[Abby Wambach]

I understand that you can't make them change. I'm just telling you, we spend years in a bad relationship provoked and trying to keep our shit together.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes, Anth, I'm gonna push back on that a little bit. Oh, please do so. Okay. Because here's to me. There's a difference between staying connected to our kids and like, feeling abused by our kids. And I do think boundaries come into play and it's a dance and you don't get it exactly. Right. Nobody, I don't. Nobody does. But I don't know, you're, you know, your kids are. I hate you. And you're the worst, you know, mom in the world all the time. And you know, and you're meanwhile, like, my whole life is taking care of you. Right. So it feels very, you know, provocative. I don't recommend. And people will say to me, Dr. Becky, I'm, I'm doing what you said. I just sit there and I say, it's okay to be mad. And I'm like, why are you doing that? Like, I don't think I ever said that. Please don't say that and let your feelings out. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, that feels like close intention wise. Right? But what I would recommend in that situation to say again if it's over and over is like, hey, I know you're upset. And I care about that. And I also know you have another way to say that to me. And I cannot stay in this room while you say that to me over and over. You're allowed to be mad. I'm going to take a deep breath. You can as well. And I actually really do want to figure this out. So let's find other language so I can stay in this conversation. We don't have to sit there and just quote, be a kid's punching bag. But the alternative to that doesn't have to be you're an awful kid. No iPad for a week. There's a lot in between.

[Glennon Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

If someone asked you directly, like, why have we learned that anger is bad? Why have we learned that anger is something we should not show? Because moms do we even feel angry? We feel guilty.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah. Well, anger is one of our most visceral emotions, especially as a kid. And it's. Our emotions are put there for evolution, right? They have evolutionary purposes. And our anger really puts us in touch with what we want and need. That's what our anger does. And again, that's useful because when I'm older, if I'm in a relationship where someone isn't treating me well, I would hope I'd be like, you know what? I want someone to talk to me respectfully. I feel angry. That's a useful sign that my body's telling me this is not in alignment with my values. But when our kids are young, anger is also one of the most powerful feelings we have. Right? And to me, the essence of what's hard in kids is that kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills. And when it comes to managing feelings, you need skills. And the hardest feeling to manage is anger. So for kids, when they express anger, which is really, if you think about it, a tantrum. A tantrum is a kid's way of saying, I know what I want and you're getting in my way of getting what I want. Right. Still a hard thing for adults to experience, but definitely pretty messy for kids. And they are massively inconvenient to parents. That's what tantrums are. They're just ball of inconvenience. You're like, this is not what I want to deal with. I'm trying to get through the grocery store. I want to have a nice night. Right? So what do we do to kids and especially to little girls because we have much less tolerance for their not quote, good, compliant, easy, whatever we call it is euphemistic for please don't have any needs and please don't make my life inconvenient at all. We send them to their rooms or we say, we don't do that in our family. And what do kids, and especially little girls learn? We take moments as kids and we learn attachment lessons. Because as kids, you're not learning moment to moment. You have to make generalities to function in the world and to draw bigger conclusions about what's safe and what's expected and what's dangerous. So what do you learn? You don't learn. My mom doesn't like when I have a tantrum about ice cream. No. The lesson is when I get angry, people go away.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And that's scary. And so it becomes very adaptive for your body to layer fear, to actually say that entire part of you that wants things for yourself. The signal for that is anger. But it's really just a part that wants things for yourself is not compatible with attachment. And when I go to those quote, mom, rage moments, let's say we're gonna rename it, but let's just call it that for, you know, for clarity for this moment. I actually think that young part of us that wants things for herself, she's the one who's screaming out, she takes over our body. And in that moment and all the moments before when we've kind of closeted her, you know, she's saying, hey, I'm here. And remember, I'm here to protect you. I know what you want. You need me. You need me. Listen to me. She's desperately screaming out.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, where? It's our. It's a tantrum. It's our tantrum. It's a grown up tantrum.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I think in tantrums, kids are really learning about their relationship with desire. And desire is anger. It's really closely connected.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so a mom, a person, a human. Because this works in really, in marriage too, right? Like, rage is an unmet need. It works in every arena because I just feel like I'm starting to truly, through therapy, et cetera, understand when I am angry what I want and need and I'm not what need? I'm not getting and get and actually getting it. This is amazing. Incredible.

[Abby Wambach]

This is amazing.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is amazing. Talk to the person who is me two years ago. Like, talk to the woman who is like, I don't know, I. I am furious. I'm a volcano. But I don't know how that's attached to my needs. I wouldn't know where to Start.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah, yeah. So here's what I'd start with. I would just start by saying to ourselves, and we can say this right now, because right after those moments, we're still so raw, it's hard to do anything new. Like, usually after those moments, if this is a new thing for you to try to be curious and compassionate with yourself, the best thing to do is just pure grounding. Sensory breathing, naming things in the room. Super, super simple. That's all our body and brains can handle. Anyone. But in this moment, like, I find a lot of power when I just tell myself, becky, like, every struggle has a story to tell everyone. Every rage moment that is a struggle has a story to tell. There's a story there. And understanding the story, this is where we conflate things. Doesn't quote, make it okay? Like, we collapse. Oh, so it's okay. Understanding isn't approval. They're very different things. Understanding the story under a moment of rage helps us figure out what led to that moment. And I don't know anyone who thinks you can change your behavior if you don't know what led to the behavior in the first place. And so when you remind yourself, okay, this struggle, there's a deeper story, and it's an important story. Like, giving yourself that there's something important here. There's something to understand, and then reminding yourself to separate. And this, to me, is always key. Like, I am a good person. That's my identity. Who, let's say, had a rage moment. And if that's new, you'll watch those two things collapse so fast. I'm a horrible person. It's like, wow, okay, they just collapsed. My horrible moment somehow became, I'm a horrible person. We cannot reflect from that place. We cannot reflect because all of our energy is trying to figure out our goodness again. We can't do any problem solving. We can't do any future planning from that state. We're in an abyss. And so when people say to me, am I letting myself off the hook? I'm like, if you want to let yourself off the hook for change, blame and shame yourself. That's the best way. You will not be able to change. If you want to keep yourself on the hook for change, remind yourself you're a good person underneath. Tell yourself that over and over. I'm a good person who is having a hard time. I've said that to myself eight times in a bathroom 28 times. And something does kind of loosen a little bit, and then you can start to be curious. And to me, a really Important question after those moments isn't just what happened in that moment is only a part of it. Like, I think we're saying, like, you get yourself to the cliff, you're gonna fall off the cliff. It's not that useful to be like, well, why did I fall off the cliff when I was standing on the cliff? I think the better question is, like, when did I start driving down that road that ended in the clip? Right. And we do. It's, like, laughable when you say it that way. But that's, you know, that's what we say to ourselves all the time. And usually that actually leads to something really productive. Right. To again, make it more concrete. Like, I know for me, exercising three days a week for 20 minutes, I don't do anything fancy. Abby, I'm not going to your gym. But, like, that's all. And if I don't, my body feels different. I don't feel as capable and strong. I really don't. And I'll be like, oh, it's interesting. For the last three weeks, I've kept saying, oh, I can't do it for this reason, or I have to be up to work. Like, there's always these excuses. Or when I look at my calendar, I'll say, wow, the number of appointments I have for work or picking up something for my kids or driving around versus the number of appointments I have for myself. That ratio is. It's always off, but it's way off. And then when I start to intervene from there, it's not magic. It's not like. And then I never yelled at my kids again. Of course not. But it does really, really shift things.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Because it's just taking care of your human self. It's. I feel like in my moments of mom rage, which, by the way, if you don't have, like, a door slamming or screaming, if you're mom rage, to me, I don't know if you've seen Lost Daughter or read that book. Okay. It's basically about mom rage. You have to see it. And the movie's beautiful. And there's just this moment where the mom, she's overwhelmed, and she has two little girls, and she's a beautiful mother who loves her kids, and she just grabs her daughter and you just see her squeeze just a little too hard. I feel that moment in my bones. I see it as is a desperate reasserting of, I am a human being, too. I am human. I am human.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I think that's what mom rage was to me. Like, no, I am human.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I'm as human as you are.

[Abby Wambach]

There's a limit. There is a limit.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And that's why the shame and how we don't. Because I think in those moments, you're right. And I've had these moments with my kids in a power struggle or in a moment where I'm screaming, where I look back and I'm like, I think in a way I was looking for my kid to validate me. Oh, you're having a hard time too. Like, I was looking for my 5 year old to say, okay, I know we're in this power struggle, but you do have a point about wearing my jacket. And I know you're doing that from a place of protection. Like, I think. I think by going after him, you have to wear your jacket. Don't you know you have to wear a jacket? Like, I was looking for him to say that. And it's not a perfect antidote. Nothing is. But I do know when I've had a more recent conversation with one of my friends and just be like, how annoying are five year olds? Oh, my goodness, how hard is it to parent a 5 year old? Or when I do, as cheesy as it sounds like, say that to myself, you know, more often, oh, this parenting thing is hard. Like, I know I'm a good parent trying to take care of my 5 year old and he makes it so hard. Oh, and I look at myself in the mirror once in a while and say, becky, like, no one's saying this to you right now, but you could say it to yourself. It's better than hoping your 5 year old does. Like, you are a loving parent who's trying. And we're going to go out there and get the morning rush, you know, and you and I know, I say in the mirror, like, we're doing this from a place of love. Let's go get them again. I feel like I've stepped four steps back from the. Which can make a really big difference versus being right at the edge.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it's so important because it's like that is so counterintuitive that when you have a rage moment where you know that, like, they didn't deserve that, you feel like complete shit for it. None of that was commensurate, you know, like it was a little thing that the huge thing came out of. That is the exact opposite moment where you're gonna look at yourself and be like, babe, you need some things.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

You.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm giving you extra grace and compassion. You feel worse about yourself. You Think you need to double down in effort. You think you need to try harder. But, like, if trying harder was gonna work, it would have already worked.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That's right. In our membership, we have this text back feature where parents can text us certain, like, acronyms or phrases. Right. So. Because sometimes you do need to hear it back. Right. And one of them is sts. Just stop the spiral. That. Right. And what you get back, there's a bunch of different ones, but our, like, just reminders, like, you're a good parent. This thing is hard and we need that in the moment. Right. We're so alone. Aloneness adds to shame. Shame adds to the potential to rage. And so I, I wish for every parent to have that feature or that friend where they, you know, can have that part of the cycle, like a little bit interrupted. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

I listened to you on a podcast recently about this and you said, or somebody said that you can tell if you're in like a guilt moment or in like a. Oh, okay, we need to fix that or we need to figure out what we need. That's a different place than a shame spiral. And you can tell whether you're in the guilt moment or the shame spiral, because if you're in the guilt, that will move you towards healing, you will be moving towards the help you need. And if you're in the shame moment, you will be staying away from the help you need.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I don't think I said that, but I love that.

[Abby Wambach]

I'll give credit to whoever said that.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I used to be a teacher and I worked at a school. There were no white kids in my class and they were mostly poor families. And the way the world reacted to angry moms who were not white.

[Abby Wambach]

Was.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is more easy for white women to talk about rage and be forgiven for it, right?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yup.

[Glennon Doyle]

We would have to think very hard before we would report things like it just kids would be removed faster than they would from a white family. How do you talk about that?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

The first thing that comes to mind is within Good Inside. We were talking about, you know, different people who work at Good Inside, like meaningful things that almost they've learned about themselves just through working at the company. And before this airs, I'll get her permission to make sure it's okay to share. But what she shared, she's a black woman, said, I'll never forget Becky when you said in our workshop, anger is a sign that we've preserved access to our self worth. Because if anger is what you need, you really can't have self worth if you don't have access to what you need. The belief that you have a healthy entitlement to want and need things is intimately connected to feeling worthy. And she just shared she was that like in, in my community, anger is terrifying, is, is bad, is wrong. The idea that anger could be connected to self worth is, is a complete 180. And I don't know if I have a solution as much as joining you and saying, you're right. It is a completely different thing for me to have rage, for me to yell at my kid publicly in a grocery store than if I was black yelling at my kid, you know, in a grocery store. It is. But the more anybody tries to push away a feeling or the more any of us learn that a feeling is bad and dangerous, the more explicit, explosive we are around that feeling because we never develop skills to manage that feeling. It's such an awful cycle. So I just want to say you're right. There is an inherent privilege we all have here. And talking about anger and rage, it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Feels like people from groups where anger is feared and rejected by the culture need even more spaces where they can express it freely and not be penalized for it because, you know, we can do it on a podcast and a lot of people can't do it anywhere.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I mean, I have one recommendation of a resource for that. Ruth King, she wrote a book called Healing Rage and another one called Mindful of Race and she talks a lot about those intersections and she also talks about rage as fierce clarity and untapped fuel. That it is like the same seat of personal transformation and we should not view it as, you know, a useless emotion or the kind of thing where you're like, oh, that up. Okay, let's try to forget and move along that it is a very seat of useful transformation.

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[Abby Wambach]

I'll just say, like, I'm doing quite a bit of work on my own self in terms of my access to anger, and I dare I say rage. And I do think that there's probably a subset of people listening to this that don't even relate because they don't have the kind of self worth, I'm speaking for myself, to be able to get angry, because the attachment that I learned when I was a kid, that any kind of anger, people would go away. And so there's probably a lot of parents, they can't even bring themselves to rage. They're just living in a low level of depression, sadness, loneliness, confusion, or it's coming out sideways in different relationships. Maybe not at their children, maybe it's at their spouse. That's definitely something that I relate to more because I don't rage. I definitely feel it, but I don't express it. And I think that that can also be pretty dangerous.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Well, we can say many things about Freud, but to me, the idea that depression is anger turned inward is, you know, a powerful idea. And I think that's very true for a lot of women.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hmm. So if somebody's like, all right, I'm willing to consider the idea that the reason I'm so pissed at work, the reason why I'm so full of rage at home or with my kids or with my partner or whatever, is because I have some unmet needs. I buy that. What next?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Okay, so this is, like, always my favorite part, because that's my favorite thing, is to go from deep thoughts into absurdly practical, manageable strategies. That's how my brain works too. So what I'd say to you, truly, is to carve out time. And that language is meaningful. I was just talking about this with Eve Rodsky. Women always talk about finding time or making time. Not a thing. You get to the end of the week, there's no time leftovers. You don't find it. As she always says, you're not Albert Einstein. You cannot mess with this space time continuum. You have to carve out time. And I would really say this. And I mean this very directly. Carve out time for my mom rage course. It is an hour. And I mean this. And if it doesn't really change things for you, well, you know, talk to you about it. Okay. Because what I. What I want to make sure people do is they give themselves the respect of saying, like, I do deserve more than, like, one tip about this. Not just for my kids, but for myself. We really deserve that. And as a little preview, that's not the only thing I'll say is to me, one of the first things we can do is actually to, like, create a little bit of a different relationship with our calendar. I think about. And I was referring to this before, protecting your calendar. And a lot of us really do live and die by our calendar. Like, we're like, what am I doing today? Right? And then we're like, am I free then? Oh, I guess I could go to that meeting even though I don't want to go because my calendar says I'm free, as opposed to gazing in and saying, do I want to go to that? But we can also use that to our benefit. And I would ask everyone listening here to go to your calendar and put on a block of time. And for me, when I started doing this, I wouldn't even know what. And I would just say, my needs matter. Do not cancel. That's what it literally said. Because I'd look at it and someone would be like, can you do this meeting? And if I called it something else, I'd be like, yeah, I'll just. I'll move that around. I'll make time for that later. Never happened. But if it said do not cancel, I tend to, like, be pretty literal. I'm like, oh, I'm not free then. Right? And I don't know, like, my. My calendar said, do not cancel. I'm not gonna do it myself.

[Abby Wambach]

From the past. Bossed myself from the present and told.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Me, that's exactly right. Use your present self for your future benefit. Because at that moment, you'll be panicked at the idea of, how could I do something for myself? But right now, you can set it up. And what I wanna tell everyone out there, okay, is I know as soon as you do this, this is what we say to ourselves. But I don't know what I would do. I don't know what I want. I don't know. Right? But let's go back to that idea that this rage moment is a sign that you're starving. Okay? So if you haven't eaten for a week, imagine being at a restaurant and looking at the menu and saying, I don't know what I want. I guess I just won't get anything. Any of your friends would be like.

[Glennon Doyle]

It doesn't just pick something.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It literally doesn't matter. And over the course of trying different, random things, you will eventually learn which you'd want to do again and which is really not for you. And I really think self care is the same thing. And if what you do the first couple times is you're like, I couldn't even make a decision. I just sat in my couch. Okay, that's okay. That happens sometimes on a menu. You get just like a piece of bread, but it's still better for your body than nothing, right? And then if it says, it's simple as saying, I've heard some people like to draw. I don't know. Okay, I'll take that from the menu. Like, it can be completely random, but it's always better than waiting for some light bulb moment of being like, I love knitting. Like, that's not gonna happen. Just not gonna happen. Right? So. So think about yourself as starving and realizing that anything you do that doesn't involve caregiving of someone else. Cause that's a way of pouring yourself out is part of a successful journey of figuring out what you actually do in time.

[Glennon Doyle]

Amen. Okay, say it again. What we're writing on our calendar in that block, it's six words. My needs.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

My needs matter. Matter.

[Abby Wambach]

Do.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Do not not cancel. Cancel.

[Abby Wambach]

Can we go into existing calendar things and write My needs matter. I am canceling.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

100%. That's right. Never wanted to be in that meeting in the first place.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And maybe we'd have less rage if we did. Love.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

100%.

[Glennon Doyle]

We love you, Dr. Becky Pod Squatters so much. Your needs matter. Do not cancel. We'll see you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the we can do Hard things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.