What Psychedelics Taught Glennon

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Psychedelics Taught Glennon"

We Can Do Hard Things
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Release: October 14, 2025

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Overview

In this intimate and characteristically candid episode, Glennon Doyle tells the story of her foray into therapeutic psychedelics—a subject she had previously hesitated to share publicly. Through warmth, humor, vulnerability, and a lot of accidental comedy (including an infamous dosing mishap), Glennon, with Abby and Amanda, explores how psychedelics intersect with her recovery from anorexia, the nature of rigid thinking, generational trauma, and familial love. The episode centers on Glennon's deeply personal therapeutic experience, weaving in neuroscience, emotional inheritance, and family anecdotes, making the discussion both raw and profoundly relatable.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why Talk About Psychedelics? & Community Trust

• Glennon confesses her reluctance to “be another white lady from LA whose life was changed by psychedelics,” noting how she originally shared these stories only on tour, treating those large audiences as trusted “family meetings.”
  • "I can't believe we're doing this episode." – Glennon (02:27)
  • "Because our community is freaking amazing." – Glennon on why secrets stay (04:04)

2. The Rationale Behind Psychedelics in Treatment

• Glennon shares her recent history: an anorexia diagnosis, the challenges of rigid thinking, and resistance to using psychedelics therapeutically due to misunderstandings and her identity as someone in addiction recovery.
• She introduces the metaphor of neural “ski tracks:”
  • Rigid thoughts are like deeply worn ski grooves; psychedelics can help create "new paths in fresh snow."
  • “Psychedelics are a way to create new paths that suddenly the fresh snow is everywhere.” – Glennon (07:25)

3. The Science Side—Neuroplasticity

• Abby interjects with the science of neuroplasticity, emphasizing the brain's capacity for change if we try new things.
  • "If we don't do new things, we don't unlock that adaptability." – Abby (08:04)

4. The Accidental Overdose – Comedic Interlude

• Glennon’s attempt at microdosing goes hilariously awry due to misunderstandings about dosing instructions:
  • She takes an entire envelope of 8 pills, thinking it's a single 0.2mg dose, instead of just one pill.
  • Abby finds her about to “boost” with the next envelope, realizes what happened, and chaos (and much laughter) ensues.
  • "I don't know if you're with me right now, but I thought that the 0.2 meant that all these pills together equal 0.2." – Glennon (18:21)
  • "I'm tripping balls." – Glennon (19:10)
  • On not understanding math in drug-taking: “I don't think I should have to do math in my drugs." (22:04)

5. The Microdose Mishap Fallout

• Glennon recounts fleeting memories: being put "in timeout" on the patio, watching a paisley neighbor's roof, her daughter Tish asking for college essay edits mid-trip, and the overall confusion surrounding the event.
  • "All I can think of is that my wife talking—is this my life? Is this my beautiful wife?" – Glennon (19:57)
  • Amanda on witnessing: "That was one of the funniest moments of my life." (20:41)

6. The Real Journey: Preparation and Intention

• Once the accidental “test” proves psychedelics can “break through” her antidepressants, Glennon describes preparing for the real therapeutic journey.
• She highlights the importance of intention-setting:
  • “I was supposed to come up with three intentions … that I would want to be explored and answered in this journey that I thought … would be helpful for my recovery.” – Glennon (39:21)
• Abby and Amanda offer metaphors for psychedelics as mental "unknotters" and lights revealing previously unseen spaces.

7. The Therapeutic Trip: Entering the Darkness

• Glennon details the actual guided psychedelic session at home. Initial hours are dominated by fear, darkness, and sensation of dragons.
  • "My consciousness was that I was in a very strange, scary, dark world that I couldn't figure out where I was or what it was. And it felt like kind of dragony." – Glennon (44:16)
• Glennon endures hours of this before she acknowledges her fear aloud.

8. Breakthrough Moment: Intergenerational Trauma

• Turning point: The therapist prompts Glennon to ask the “medicine” why she is so scared.
  • “So I just say, ‘Medicine, why am I so scared?’” – Glennon (51:17)
• Glennon is taken to a vision of being in a basement with Amanda and a relative—a child terrified of being beaten.
• She realizes her intense, anticipatory fear is “not mine”—it’s a family inheritance passed through traumatic survival strategies.
  • "I knew this and I never knew this ... I knew it in my body then." – Glennon (55:27)
  • “This armoring up, this rigid fear is a family legacy. That was a survival technique.” (56:05)

9. Integration: Compassion and Transformation

• The embodied realization brings Glennon massive compassion for her lineage, less judgment about herself and her family, and new language for talking with her children.
  • "It really adds all kinds of compassion … what every generation goes through and what we pass on." (57:26)
  • Amanda describes Glennon after the journey as unusually open-hearted: “She was a puddle of love.” (58:53)

10. The “I Don’t Know” Epiphany

• In the second phase of her trip, Glennon is a child in a magical forest, filled with awe. Anytime she wonders "why," things go dark; when she releases the need to know and simply says “I don’t know,” the universe bursts into celebration.
  • “It was like the words, ‘I don't know,’ were magical words that made the entire realm celebrate.” – Glennon (63:54)
• The lesson: awe and curiosity open the world, and it’s freeing to relinquish over-analysis—a direct parallel to her recovery and family legacy work.
  • "Your job has always been in here. Just be amazed and write down what is.” (65:37)

11. Biological Inheritance of Trauma

• Abby ties the experience to scientific research, referencing how trauma changes DNA expression and is passed down generations ("emotional inheritance").
  • “Your actual DNA expression changes because of the trauma that someone experiences.” – Abby (66:07)
  • "We're constantly trying to figure out where it is and make it make sense ... And that will make you feel a little crazy." (68:49)

12. Hope, Healing, and Generational Change

• Glennon and Abby reflect on how each generation lessens the burden:
  • “But it will be smaller, just like it was smaller to me, it will be smaller to my people, and then it will be smaller again. And that ... is the generational work.” – Abby (70:09)
• Glennon concludes with the importance of finding language to explain and alleviate inherited fears for her children.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I just could not be another white lady from LA whose life was changed by psychedelics." – Glennon (02:30)
• "Math is something separate that shouldn't be interjected into this." – Glennon (22:04)
• "Is this my life? Is this my beautiful wife?" – Glennon, mid-trip (19:57)
• "The not being mushy and the not talking about love all the time ... just a defense mechanism, just like a protection thing ... I think this is just an unblocker." – Glennon (59:43)
• "You're always above your pay grade, honey. Just be astonished and tell about it and let us handle the why." – Glennon (65:37)
• "I'm going to do what I can to ... burden you the least that I can." – Abby (70:15)

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Timeline & Key Timestamps

• 02:27 – Glennon introduces the decision to talk about psychedelics openly
• 07:25 – “Fresh snow/ski tracks” metaphor for new neural pathways
• 15:03–22:04 – Dosing mishap: microdosing gone rogue
• 24:09 – Abby puts Glennon “in timeout” during her bad trip
• 31:03 – College essay editing mid-trip
• 39:21 – Intention-setting for the real journey
• 44:16–45:50 – Glennon’s “dragon/darkness” psychedelic experience
• 51:17 – Breakthrough: “Medicine, why am I so scared?”
• 55:27–56:05 – Realization of trauma as family legacy
• 58:53 – Amanda: “She was a puddle of love.”
• 63:54 – "I don’t know" magic phrase and the celebration forest
• 66:07 – Abby “trauma changes DNA expression”
• 70:15 – The generational hope: “it will be smaller again”

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Conclusion

This episode is a deeply honest, surprisingly funny, and ultimately hopeful exploration of using psychedelics for healing intergenerational trauma. Glennon's vulnerability strips away stigma, her storymaking converts suffering into communal wisdom, and Abby and Amanda’s participation makes for a masterclass in familial support and curiosity. The journey is less about drugs and more about finding compassion, breaking family cycles, and making space for awe.

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For newcomers: This episode stands as both a practical and metaphoric guide for anyone wrestling with inherited fear, rigid thinking, or anxieties whose origins are buried deep in family history. The conversation is both light and dark, scientific and spiritual. And, in classic Pod Squad style, it's all wrapped up with laughter and love.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome to. We can do hard things. And today.

[Abby Wambach]

Abby can't go that fast. So as long as you go super.

[Glennon Doyle]

Super fast, you can beat her.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm sorry. I needed to introduce Fun. Welcome, you guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you.

[Amanda Doyle]

I love you, too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank God for you and your interjection of a little bit of fun.

[Amanda Doyle]

A little bit of fun.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm becoming a little bit of fun. Oh, you.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm not.

[Abby Wambach]

No fun. No.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

No, she said, oh, you are. Like, it was a news. Like, not something that I've been. Oh, you are.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hey, you know what you want.

[Abby Wambach]

I'll try to pay attention.

[Glennon Doyle]

Are talking at the same time. But you want to wait your turn.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, it's totally. No, listen, it's totally okay, because in post, they can little. They can slow down.

[Abby Wambach]

So we're having fun. Okay, hold on. This is fun.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hold on. I. I do want to tell you something. You want to know what our oldest child said about you the other day?

[Glennon Doyle]

What? He always says this, but. What?

[Amanda Doyle]

That you're, like, the funniest person that he knows.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Yes.

[Amanda Doyle]

That, like, that's how he thinks of you. Like, Mandy is just always so on the comedy, on the bites or the bits. I was like, damn, that's a good compliment. And I need.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, the other random thing he told us last night is that what. When he was little, he heard, like, okay, you, I think, or my mom, somebody. He tells the story. We were sitting in Reedville at Bubba and Tish's house, and he thinks it was when you were announcing that Alice was going to be born when you were pregnant.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

And mom said something at the table. Oh, she went. Because she figured out what was going on. And Bubba goes, just be careful. Don't take up all the air in the room and chase. For his whole life, until he was old enough to know better, thought that there was a limited amount of oxygen and that we. That Bubba had just said the quiet part out loud and that we all knew that one day we wouldn't have enough oxygen. And he was just biting his breaths. That's what he felt, secretly believed for, like, years.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, it's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is true.

[Abby Wambach]

There's not gonna be enough oxygen.

[Glennon Doyle]

It is true.

[Amanda Doyle]

We didn't have the heart to tell him that last night.

[Abby Wambach]

So we were preparing him for life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, you're right. Shit. He was right. Okay. I can't believe we're doing this episode.

[Amanda Doyle]

Me fucking neither.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because I told myself two years ago when I did psychedelic drugs as a therapeutic. There it is, folks, method that I would never tell these stories publicly just because I just could not be another white lady from LA whose life was changed by psychedelics. So to the point where even in our last book. And we can do hard things, you will see sections where I'm like, and then I had a thought and then I had this vision and they are from trips, but I just couldn't bring myself to be.

[Amanda Doyle]

Therapeutic journeys.

[Glennon Doyle]

Therapeutic journeys. However, I actually did tell the stories of my psychedelic experiences on tour because I was like, oh, this is just our family meeting. Like, nobody will, Right? So I just asked everybody.

[Abby Wambach]

It's just a small group of our closest.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's just like a kind of like finite number of. Of we can do hard tens cities.

[Abby Wambach]

Of tens of thousands of people. And so it's just intimate. But.

[Glennon Doyle]

But okay. What I will say, though, about our community is that over the last 20 years, because we've been doing versions of these town halls or Tours for 20 years where we gather everybody in their communities and we just sit and talk for hours. I have said amazingly private things in those rooms over the years. And I have said to thousands of people, y', all, this is going to stay between us. And it does.

[Amanda Doyle]

How the hell does that work?

[Glennon Doyle]

Because our community is freaking amazing.

[Amanda Doyle]

Really. We really trust them.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know.

[Amanda Doyle]

And they actually listen to private stuff. It's cool.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. I'm like, this is between us. It's 5,000 people. And they're like, gotcha. Yeah, okay, gotcha. So that's what happened with the psychedelic story. But I just felt like the rest of the pod squad needed to know.

[Amanda Doyle]

Needed to know.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm so excited. I'm so excited that you're telling them.

[Glennon Doyle]

So let me set the stage. This last round of recovery, which everyone knows about, who was a part of this community where I got the anorexia diagnosis a couple years ago and then went into intensive treatment. Okay. There were people, experts, doctors throughout the process who kept saying to me, we really think that you should try psychedelics as part of your therapy, as part of your treatment. I was hell bent against it because. Mostly because I didn't understand the whole.

[Abby Wambach]

Genre and because you're an addict who has figured out that maybe drugs don't work with you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. But that's why I didn't. But that is related to not understanding. I didn't understand at the time that this is actually a method. Psychedelics are actually a method of treating addiction and treating. And so if you've never. I'm going to give a poor explanation that won't Be exactly right. Don't me just. I'm just going to try to tell you my version of why psychedelics are so effective and prescribed often to people with anorexia or other thinking diseases, which in some ways, that's not exactly the right words, but anorexia is a thinking disease. It's that when it's about rigid thinking, it's about not being able to see outside of one tiny neuropathway. It's about every time there's a trigger, every time I get scared about the world or the family or anything, I go to, okay, I know how to keep myself safe. I know. And I go to food. It is a disorder of rigid thinking. And so if you think about like a mountain where a bunch of skiers are going down, okay. And there are pathways kind of smushed into the snow.

[Amanda Doyle]

Ski slopes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Skis. Is that okay? So there's slopes. I thought the slope was the whole mountain.

[Amanda Doyle]

It is, but you're, you're, you're grooving, you're putting ski grooves and.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, okay, so there's like ski paths where tracks. Yeah, you wouldn't. You put your skis. And you're going to naturally go down a path because it's well worn. Okay. You're not going to like forge your way through a new fresh snow because that doesn't make any sense. That it's like the least resistance is the path that's already created. And that's what your brain does. Okay. And neuropathway is basically the road most traveled. The thought that you've gone to the most times over and over again until it feels, feels and looks like, and actually is experienced as the only path possible. You don't even look up enough or know that there's fresh snow everywhere, that you could actually go a different way with your thoughts and create an entirely new path, entirely new experience. And so what? One thing that psychedelics do and why they're prescribed to rigid thinkers is, is because it's a way to create new paths that suddenly the fresh snow is everywhere and you can like, somehow find new ways to think new, different ways to get down the mountain that might be less destructive.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're like skiing in powder is what they call it, Meaning like you're laying down new tracks.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? Laying down.

[Abby Wambach]

And so this is the science of neuroplasticity. The idea that you're brain is adaptable and you can think new things and your brain is still kind of able to adapt. But if we don't do new things, we don't unlock that adaptability.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. So even though these things have been presented to me as actual, I mean, the success rate for eating disorder recovery is not good. This element, adding this element does seem to increase the possibility of recovery, meaning recovery, meaning new ways to think, new ways to survive, new ways to deal with stress that don't all relate to body control. Okay. I said no for a very long time and then had a plateau where I couldn't figure out how to move forward and got pretty hopeless and finally said, okay, I will try your situation. Mm. My backstory is that I've done every drug in the world. Like, I'm not. There's not a lot I haven't done. I did a lot of shrooms in college. Let's just say it wasn't like therapeutic. Okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

Recreational. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Just because it was self medicating doesn't mean it's therapeutic.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. So it was hard for me to imagine that in a different setting with a different intention. Okay. One doctor that I was working with said to me one day, okay, we're great. This is great. You're going to try it. Now, one challenge with you doing a journey. So a journey is when a doctor or therapist or someone with credentials prescribes a psychedelic experience for you. And then there is a lot of lead up preparation that has to do with identifying intentions, wishes, questions, goals. A lot of therapy goes beforehand. Then there is the actual journey. Then there's a lot of integration post meetings where you talk about what you experience and how it might apply to your life and how you might integrate it into your thinking in your life to start afresh.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay. So basically what you're saying is that you don't just show up one day and you sit with a doctor and they give you some drugs and you do drugs with somebody watching.

[Glennon Doyle]

That wasn't my experience.

[Amanda Doyle]

What you are saying that is your experience is that it was weeks of prep, months of prep, talking to this therapist who was gonna be facilitating the journey, getting you to the journey, taking you through the journey, and then also facilitating integrations post journey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right, got it. So the first thing the therapist says is, and I'm going to be paraphrasing everything. I'm a storyteller, not a doctor.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

So just don't correct me if it's.

[Abby Wambach]

Not clear so far.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. So the therapist says there are some challenges. We're going to get through them together. One of the challenges is that we have to find out if the psychedelics are going to break through your antidepressant because you have been on antidepressants since you were a toddler.

[Amanda Doyle]

And that was paraphrased.

[Glennon Doyle]

So in. I'm not on them anymore, but at the time I was on them. That can create a bit. Basically, you're just like one big human Lexapro. So we have to see if this is going to be able to break through enough. The barrier of that to have an experience.

[Abby Wambach]

I say, okay, can I ask you a question about that? Does that mean our SSRI's always a block to. Or maybe you don't know, but chemically, they, like, don't allow the psychedelics to do their thing?

[Glennon Doyle]

Sometimes. And that's what she told me. Sometimes SSRIs will block the psychedelics from doing their thing. So there needs to be some sort of experiment beforehand to see if it's going to break through.

[Amanda Doyle]

True.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right. So she says to me, what we're gonna do is, I am going to. You're gonna take a microdose of the psychedelics just to see if we have any reaction. And she said, what that will feel like is I will give you some microdoses and you will take them, and basically you will feel nothing. Like, if we're really lucky, you might feel, like, some tingling in your toes or something. And then we'll know, but that this is gonna work. However, don't. Don't worry, because this is not gonna be like consciousness altering. You're gonna be absolutely fine. You might feel some sensation. Right? So I say, okay. So I say, well, how am I gonna get these microdose things? And she says, you have to come and pick them up. And I say, well, I'm not gonna do that. That sounds scary, because that is drugs. And this sounds very shady and scary. So I send Abby to pick up to do the drug deal. Okay? And she comes back, you go and do it, and it was fine.

[Amanda Doyle]

It was totally fine, totally normal.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? She comes back with two envelopes. Okay. And she puts them in my top underwear drawer.

[Amanda Doyle]

Now, were they envelopes or the Ziploc?

[Glennon Doyle]

I think they were envelopes. Weren't they little envelopes?

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't know. I can't remember.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, well, one of them said 0.1, and one of them said 0.2. Okay? And my job was to one morning over the next week, take.02, then an hour later take a.01 and see if my toes tingle at some point that day. That was my job. Yeah. Okay, great. So I wake up one morning, we have a full day of meetings, and I actually forgot to tell Abby that I was going to try it that day, which I probably should have. In retrospect, however, I was assured that nothing dramatic was going to happen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, Right.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't tell her every time my toes are tingling.

[Amanda Doyle]

Fine. Yeah. But hold on a second. This was a big oversight.

[Glennon Doyle]

I agree. Now, I. I could.

[Abby Wambach]

In retro.

[Glennon Doyle]

We all know it's a big oversight. It wasn't even the biggest oversight.

[Amanda Doyle]

I mean, it's so weird because we don't. We tell each other everything.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's such a weird thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that I felt still a little bit of shame to be doing drugs. I think I felt, like, nervous about it.

[Amanda Doyle]

But you made me go get.

[Glennon Doyle]

Pick them up. I'm an addict. I'm used to hiding drugs.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, so rule number one of doing drugs. Hide your talk about doing drugs.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. So I wake up one morning, take a shower, take point two.

[Amanda Doyle]

Are you sure you're supposed to take point two, or were you point two first? Okay, okay, okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Take point two. We have a full docket of meetings that day. Zoom, zoom, zoom, and zoom, zoom, zoom, zooms. Okay. So Abby and I sit down at our little table in the corner in the family room, and we get on our first meeting. And, like.

[Amanda Doyle]

Which is insane now, in retrospect. Sorry.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, it's okay. So, like, 20 minutes into the meeting, I'm like, what is happening? Like, I feel like all these boxes are kind of moving and people look weird. But I am very dramatic, and I have. I can be psychosomatic as, like, I am like, no, give me any placebo pill and I will give you your result. Like, I am. Right, Right. My mind, very powerful.

[Abby Wambach]

So you're like, look, it worked.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. So I was like, shut up, Glennon. Like, I'm talking to myself. I'm like, you're not. You're supposed to only feel your toes tickle. This is not. But then the boxes a little bit start changing. It's a little changing. And so I say, I think I should tell my wife I'm on drugs right now. I just think that I should mention this. So I mute and I say, I did the microdose thing this morning, and I just. I'm feeling a little bit weird, but I don't think it's anything. I think I'm just gonna carry on. I'm gonna keep the protocol. I'm gonna go take my 0.1. Cause it's been an hour and now.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hold on just a second. I would like the pod to really think about what it might feel like to be to work with your spouse, to be on work, zoom meetings, talking about business and things and that. And this episode. What are we going to do here? How do you know? And then your wife mutes the call and says, so I did those microdoses, that microdose this morning, and I'm kind of feeling something. I think it's probably fine. What would you do under those circumstances?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, what you did, I said, I'm gonna go take my. My booster, my point one. And I started walking away very carefully. I was walking very carefully, and I.

[Abby Wambach]

Believed I was walking away.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think I was. And I was. Because the next thing I knew, I was in my bedroom downstairs, and Abby was right behind me. So clearly she had stopped the meeting and said, I'm.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I gotta go. You guys off, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. So she's behind me. The next thing I know, Pod Squad, I am. I have the 0.1 envelope, and I've poured all the 0.1 in my hand, and I'm. I have my water, and I'm getting ready to pop all the eight pills that are in my hand into my mouth. And Abby lunges towards me, shoves my hand down so that all the pills fly over the room. And this is a strange occurrence in the midst of an hour. That has been a very strange occurrence so far. I'm confused about what's going on and why my wife has just scattered my microdose boost about the room that you.

[Abby Wambach]

Were specifically told to take that 0.1.

[Glennon Doyle]

So then my wife looks at me and she goes, honey, show me the point two envelope right now. Show me the envelope. So, of course, I show her the empty envelope, which had eight pills in it, but is now empty, because, Pod Squad, I don't know if you're with me right now, but I thought that the 0.2 meant that all these pills together equal 0.2. I thought that the envelope was one dose of 0.2. And so I took all eight pills before the meeting, and now I'm tripping balls.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm just like, you guys. Okay, Those that are listening, she kind of, like, walks kind of. She. She. She nonchalantly says, I think that I, you know, I took the microdose and I'm going to. I have to take another booster, so I'm going to go down. And I was like, this doesn't sound right. Something doesn't sound right. So I walk downstairs. She's got all of these pills ready to take them, and I was like, what is that? What are you doing? She's Like, I'm doing the booster. And just like Glennon said, I just like, how many pills? I was just thinking, how many pills were in the 0.2? How many pills were in her hand? It is a lot to take eight pills of something.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I really did really commit to that.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right. So what is 0.2 times 8?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a lot is what it is. And so now she's talking to me about math and how could I think 0.2 is 8 pills? And she keeps saying, at any point when you were taking all of those pills, did your mind say, this doesn't feel right? And she's talking about math. And all I can think of is that my wife talking, is this my life? Is this my beautiful wife?

[Amanda Doyle]

Is this my beautiful home?

[Glennon Doyle]

What is happening? And so the next thing I know now, I kind of come to and I'm laying on the bathroom floor. I remember hysterically laughing on the bathroom floor while she tried to explain to me what I had done. I do remember a flash of that.

[Amanda Doyle]

That was one of the funniest moments of my life.

[Glennon Doyle]

But you were scared, too. I do remember thinking, she's scared, and that's scaring me. Your face looked a little scary.

[Amanda Doyle]

I was cons. I was concerned. Not because I thought you were going to die or anything, by any means. Because what I was concerned was that the whole point of you micro dosing was to make sure that these new chemicals that you would one day in the week ahead be adding something more into the brain chemistry. Right. And so with. With your SSRIs. And I just wanted to make sure we weren't going to have any adverse reaction.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right, exactly.

[Amanda Doyle]

So I didn't think you were going to die. I just thought maybe you'd feel very upset or, or not. Good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right? Feel very.

[Abby Wambach]

She's not qualified to go on a journey is what she said. She's. I am not. I am ill prepared for a journey at this point. So.

[Glennon Doyle]

So, but in fairness to you, point.

[Abby Wambach]

Two, I, in fairness to you, something is labeled point two.

[Glennon Doyle]

You could think this cumulatively is point.

[Amanda Doyle]

Hold on, let me do the math on that.

[Glennon Doyle]

It didn't say. Just.

[Abby Wambach]

It didn't say. But it didn't say 0.28 of each.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, it didn't.

[Abby Wambach]

It just said 0.2. So what are we, pharmacologists?

[Glennon Doyle]

What am I?

[Abby Wambach]

I don't think so.

[Amanda Doyle]

Then that would be.025 per pill. Does that make sense?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, anyway, we don't know things.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're new to this. I don't I don't. I don't think I should have to do math in my drugs. Like, I just. Right. I don't. I never had to do that. Okay. That wasn't a part of the experience before this moment. Okay, so math is something separate that shouldn't be interjected into this. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to we can do hard things for free.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Amanda Doyle]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Anyway, the next thing I remember is Abby has walked me up the stairs. So she put me out on this little deck that we have on the front of our house. It's like on the street. We live very, very, very close to our neighbor. So it's kind of like two feet from our neighbors. She sits me in the corner and.

[Abby Wambach]

She says, in time out, in a.

[Glennon Doyle]

Timeout, I'm in timeout. And she says, stay here.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, okay. And I just want to be clear. I want the folks who are listening to understand my thought process during this time.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have also experience with psychedelics in my lifetime as a recreational shroom doer. And being put into an enclosed space where nobody's watching you, not bueno. Is not something that I felt very comfortable with. So I couldn't. I needed to call the doctor. I needed to call her therapist.

[Glennon Doyle]

You did need to do that.

[Amanda Doyle]

And so I needed to also be able to have eyes on Glennon while I was talking to her therapist. So this was the only see through door, glass door. So I put her on the patio. It's enclosed, totally safe. She's sitting there to think about what she had. Yes, continue. I just needed people to understand, like, why would you put her on the patio? It's the only place in our house that has a glass door.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I remember thinking, this is nice to be in the fresh air. Then I remember staring at my neighbor's roof. That doesn't even make a lot of sense. I don't know how, actually, as I say this out loud, I don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

How I'm staring at the neighbor's roof.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because that feels like it should have been higher than where I was. But I do remember staring at my neighbor's roof. And then I remember my neighbor's roof was paisley and rolling, Rolling paisley. Rolling hills of paisley. And I remember thinking, that's not exactly right. And then I remember.

[Abby Wambach]

I would have remembered that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. And then I remember hearing, as if I had supersonic hearing because Abby was all the way on the other side of the kitchen talking to the doctor and sounding like it was going to be okay. And then I remember thinking, thank God almighty, the children are at Craig's. I just thought that I don't know what's about to happen to me right now, But I know it shouldn't involve children. That's all I know. And so thank God for that. Now, Pod Squad. I'm sitting there enjoying confusedly, the paisley roof vistas. The next thing I know, I turn to my right and Tish is sitting next to me. Okay. Now, I'm not even sure at first that Tish is actually sitting next to me. It takes me a minute to be like, are you just more paisley or is this for real? Because this can't be happening.

[Amanda Doyle]

Tish walks in.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did she get there? How? How has it been six hours? Has it been one hour? Who am I? Who is she? Where am I? How did she get there?

[Amanda Doyle]

It's a good question. I don't know. She also kind of just Appeared out of nowhere. She just walked upstairs. Walked, saw you outside and. And sat down right next to you. And I'm inside talking to the doctor about how you're tripping because you. You didn't micro dose you macro dose. And I. I am now like, oh, I gotta get out there because I. I gotta get out there because I didn't want Tish to be scared and feel like sure she's witnessing her mom. This was supposed to be done in private. That's why, you know, next time we talk about this kind of stuff before we do it. Yeah, so that's the backstory there.

[Glennon Doyle]

So Amanda, she sits next to me and I look at her and now I'm understanding that she is real and this is really happening. She has a laptop in her lap. She says the following to me, mom, can you edit my college essays? And she picks up her laptop and she puts it. It in my lap. I.

[Abby Wambach]

That's worth the math.

[Glennon Doyle]

I've now been asked to do math, and now I'm being asked to do literature. In the first 20 minutes of my trip, I. I don't remember how. I don't remember what computers are or like what paragraphs are or what colleges or what. But I do remember words. Words. And I can't find them. It's making. The words are moving. Everything's moving. But I do remember in my smart little brain something which is that oftentimes I think when I'm remembering back to my previous life before I was on so many drugs, I do think I remember from that realm that when people are reading something or experiencing something that people they love have made that they make noises.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Remember this? That they go. So.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I just sit there next to Tish with the little computer open in my lap. And I do not look at her. No, I just look at this. The white thing with the black things in front of me. And I just go, oh, oh. And I just do that for a little while. I think I'm pulling it off. I don't see her. I mean, she doesn't really pay attention to me anyway. I feel like it's going all right.

[Abby Wambach]

Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's going all right. It's going pretty good. And as long as I don't have to say anything specific about what's happening. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Don't change any punctuation or anything.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. So the next thing I know, Abby comes. She swoops Tish away and the computer that's on my lap. And then she puts me in a room.

[Amanda Doyle]

You just said To Tish, though. Just keep going.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that what I said?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, you said, just keep going. Just keep going.

[Abby Wambach]

Good advice for a writer. That was smart of you.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're on the right track. Keep going.

[Glennon Doyle]

Keep going. And then I think somehow you made Tish leave the house. Right.

[Amanda Doyle]

Some.

[Glennon Doyle]

You got her out. You got her out. You got me safe.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, I think that I was like, what are you up to today? And she's like, oh, I gotta go do this thing. And I was like, awesome. That's great. So then I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Awesome.

[Abby Wambach]

Do it now.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Then I corralled. Corralled you in the bedroom.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, the best part of this is that when you told this story for the first time on stage we didn't know you were gonna tell it. And Tish had just opened the show.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

For us. And was sitting in the audience. And I was watching her face watch you tell the story. And it was so amazing. And then when she came backstage for the first time at the first show.

[Glennon Doyle]

She was like, you were high when.

[Abby Wambach]

You edited my college essay.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was so funny.

[Abby Wambach]

I know. And it's like we forgot that she was there or something like that.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank God she still got into a college. Anyway.

[Abby Wambach]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the good news was that it did, in fact, break through. Okay. Indeed. Indeed. It broke through. So that experiment, while not flawless, was complete and we could move forward with the journey. Okay. I recovered from that. It was a lost day. A lot happened. I watched Friends for a long time because I thought, this is something I can understand. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand Friends. That's another story.

[Amanda Doyle]

That was a difficult time that I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Was like, why is Joey like that? Like what? Why is Monica.

[Amanda Doyle]

We couldn't see.

[Glennon Doyle]

Stop. I was like, is this a play? I kept saying, is this a play?

[Amanda Doyle]

Anyway. Anyway. I mean, if you all knew how much we. This family has watched Friends over the years. It's like Tish's go to. We've watched it five iterations.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. It's a comfort show.

[Amanda Doyle]

So for her not to understand, Friends was a difficult time for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

I still feel confused about it. Anyway, it broke through. So now what we have to do is plan the actual journey Day. Because that wasn't enough of a journey because I had no guidance. So we decided on the journey Day that was going to be like, a couple weeks later or something. Right. And so we have it planned now. Like, we are clear that the kids. We have made so many really sketchy things that we've said that make it clear that no children will be allowed in the house for 24 hours. Which I was. Okay. They were at Craig's. Now, some people do this at a. At a place like they go to their therapist's office. I felt like, since I'm really only comfortable in my house, like to an nth degree, that it's probably best for me. My favorite journeys are ones that I take from my living room always. So I thought, we'll stick with that. Right, Right. So I needed to. We made all kinds of arrangements, and Abby had a speaking event the day before, so she was going to make sure she was home the night before, she could handle the dogs and all the things. It was all arranged.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah. Just. You needed somebody else to help manage the surrounding area.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly. So it's supposed to be like Friday. Okay. Abby's coming home Thursday night. So therapist is supposed to be there at 8am Friday, something. We begin. So on Thursday morning at 7am when the children are still here, the dogs are still everywhere, Abby is still out of town. I get a text from my therapist that says, so excited, Today's the day. I'm gonna be there in an hour. So I have now once again fucked this up. I really planned the entire life. I did such good organizing just around the wrong thing, which is the theme of my life. I tried so hard and really nailed it for the wrong situation entirely. So now you're so prepared for something.

[Abby Wambach]

That wasn't happening that way.

[Glennon Doyle]

Exactly, yes. It's like one of my favorite quotes is that adulthood is crossing both ways before looking both ways before crossing the street and then getting hit by an airplane. That's how I constantly feel. I did the thing. I looked both ways. It's just I didn't. So I think this is not ideal. My wife's not here. The dogs are here. The kids aren't whatever. So somehow I figure out the kids. I call Abby. She's like, holy shit. Okay, we're going to make this work. We're going to make this happen. You're going to be okay. I'm going to get on an earlier flight, but you're going to be okay. And walks me through it now because I had, like, a few jobs to do before the therapist came for the journey. And I had planned the day, Thursday, to do those things, so now I had to do them very, very quickly. Okay. Some of those, which I actually think, in retrospect, that all of this happened the way it was supposed to happen.

[Amanda Doyle]

Of course it did.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because I get so anxious in preparation for things that I Might have worked myself up into a nauseous tizzy by the next day. I really think that's possible.

[Amanda Doyle]

For an example, I have to, like, surprise you. We're going to the dentist right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right. She just picks me up for an example. She says we're going to lunch and then we go to the dentist. That is actually a tip that Craig passed down to her in the owner's manual that was moved from. From Craig to Abby.

[Amanda Doyle]

Now, don't let her know. Just wait.

[Glennon Doyle]

So wait.

[Abby Wambach]

The work that you're supposed to do, were those jobs for work or were they jobs in preparation for the journey?

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, so they were things such as. And these were just mine. Other people might have different experiences. I was supposed to come up with three intentions can be in the form of a question that was tied to my therapy and to my recovery that were something that. That you would. That I would want to be explored and answered in this journey that I thought my eye and my therapist thought would be helpful for my recovery if some new light was shed on that particular question. So I was supposed to come up with three of those questions and then some little things that would comfort me during the journey and then set up a little space. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

Like pictures and altar things that you want to be looking at during the journey.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

You know what just occurred to me as you're talking about those questions? It feels like, you know the chapter of Untamed where the necklace is so tight and like it's in it's knots is the chapter. And like it's all so tight that I feel like another analogy, the ski slope one, but another one is that like when. When you just have a thing that you just can't undo and you just can't work with it. It's like this is just. This journey stuff is supposed to just loosen it a little bit so you can get started. Like, you still have to do the work, you still have to unknot it, but it has that first loosening where you could actually start the work.

[Glennon Doyle]

That feels exactly that to me. That's a little. Even better than the ski slope. That. That is how it feels.

[Amanda Doyle]

Do you want to know my metaphor for it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Please.

[Amanda Doyle]

So the way that I think about psychedelics is like, for example, we have lights that are shining on us right now. To me, what psychedelics are is that they actually explore all this unexplored space. It's like turning the lights on in places that you didn't know existed. And so creating more expansiveness, more understanding, showing that there are maybe, like, maybe the ski slope, maybe like the lights are only. You're only seeing, like, the specific slope that you've been going down, but showing that there is a. A broader mountain or even a broader world.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

That's good.

[Amanda Doyle]

So it's like the. It's like illuminating more space.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love that. That's right. That's right. So, you know, for example, one of the questions that I went in with, which seems silly, but actually was really important to me at the time and tied to everything, was, why am I so scared? Like, why am I so scared? Like, what? And that encompass. Encompassed a lot of things, of course. It meant, like, why do I have all this anxiety? Like, what, What. What happened? Why is my body like this? Why is my mind like this? Why am I hyper vigilant? Why do I experience life so differently than it seems like a lot of other people do? Right. And I. Yes, that was like a question that was kind of at the center of everything. And then I had a couple other questions, but I'm just going to focus on that one for the purpose of this story. Okay. Yeah. So what happens is that the therapist comes. I have my questions written out. I have my little thing, which is just like some flowers, and I have a picture of my sister and me and Abby and me and then the kids in front of me. And then I lay down. In my particular case, I took MDMA and then waited an hour. Nothing. I didn't feel anything from that. And then I took the. I drank a mug of tea, which was the psychedelics.

[Amanda Doyle]

Psilocybin.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Right. Now, what I will explain is that at first I was like, nothing. I don't feel anything. And then I was like, oh, okay. I had a feeling of oh. And I don't know how I transitioned to this situation, but I was laying on the couch and I had like, she had given me a mask thing. And the next thing I knew, I was. I guess from the outside I looked like I was just laying there with a mask on.

[Abby Wambach]

I think how it appeared was I was laying there with an eye mask on. But what really happened was what felt.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like it was happening to me was that my. I was. My consciousness was that I was in a very strange, scary, dark world that I couldn't figure out where I was or what it was. And it felt like kind of dragony.

[Amanda Doyle]

And you also had headphones on.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, I had headphones on.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which had some music in it, which was all a part of this strange, scary. And so for a long time I just was frozen and very scared. I did not think of anything else to do but to just lay there and be frozen and paralyzed and scared. So that's what I did for a very long time. It turns out like a couple hours.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay, were you aware that you were laying there having believing that you were in a strange realm or did you believe you were in a strange realm?

[Glennon Doyle]

I believe that I was in a strange realm. That that is my retrospective understanding of what was happening. Otherwise why would I have just stood there? I would have taken off the mask.

[Amanda Doyle]

That was my first question. The door wasn't even locked.

[Glennon Doyle]

The door wasn't even locked. It felt like it was. It felt like I was in this scary, scary realm. I was drenched with sweat. Two hours in. I finally say, I think it's a very interesting parallel to life for me is like not asking like just being like I'll just be terrified and alone for a long time even though there's someone sitting there who I'm paying to help me.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I guess this is my loss in life.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I don't though I sit there for hours.

[Amanda Doyle]

The kind of uncomfort that this woman endures before she realizes that she can fix it.

[Abby Wambach]

That it's optional.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, that it's optional. And now it's time for our ads.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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[Amanda Doyle]

Oh, okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Now is when I try to explain something that's really hard to explain to the pod squad in a way that I feel like you will understand even if I don't say all the exact words. Okay? The next thing I know, right after I've said medicine, why am I so scared? I am no longer in the dark dragon realm. I am sitting on the floor in a cold basement. I'm my age now. I'm an adult. You, Amanda, are sitting down there with me. And there is a child in the middle of us.

[Amanda Doyle]

Amanda's her current age.

[Glennon Doyle]

Amanda's your a grown up. Grown up. Amanda's.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're both grown ups.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, yeah, but in.

[Abby Wambach]

We're both grown ups in the basement with a child.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're both in the grown. We're both grown ups ourselves, versions of ourselves right now. But we're sitting in a cold, dark basement and there's a child between us. Okay, without getting into any specifics, what I want you to know is that the child that was sitting between us is a relative of ours. And what we were experiencing with this child, the child was very scared. The child was like holding the child's self and was scared. And we were comforting this child. This child was a relative of ours who had suffered abuse as a child. Okay? What we were doing in the basement with this child was waiting for the child's parent to come down the stairs and beat the child. You and I, when I asked the medicine, why am I so scared. The medicine took me to some moment in time where someone in our family line was waiting to be beaten. And that fear in that relative's body that that relative embodied as a child to deal with the abuse is what was passed on in our lineage. Because when a person is abused, that person's nervous system talk about needing to be hyper vigilant, right. Like that person's becomes a certain way in their body and then that is passed on generation to generation.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

And.

[Glennon Doyle]

And even if the abuse stops, which God bless our family line, that physical abuse stopped, there is still an anticipatory fear in the body that something terrible is about to happen. And we must brace ourselves. That is a family legacy. Why am I so afraid that something terrible is always about to happen? There I am on the floor with a little kid who is absolutely positive that something terrible is about to happen. Because it is and has learned as a family survival skill that we will brace ourselves, we will be ready, we will be prepared, we will survive that. So, wow, when I explained to you, I don't understand, I don't beg to understand what the hell psychedelics are, what the hell this story is, I don't even know. But what I'm telling you is I have read 70,000 million gazillion trillion books about this. I could have told you in my brain this. I knew this and I never knew this.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Until I was sitting in that. I knew it in my body. Then I knew in my body that this fear is actually not mine. It's not native to me in my spirit. It is a survival technique that is passed on. Like skills are passed on in families, like beauty is passed on in families, like legacies are passed on in families. This anticipatory anxiety readiness Warrior love warrior. Carry on warrior. This armoring up, this rigid fear is a family legacy. That was a survival technique.

[Amanda Doyle]

And.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know how to explain how it changed everything for me. I don't even know to know if changed everything is the right word. I don't feel like all I know now is that I have a bodily understanding where the fear is and what it is and what it's from and that I can see it now. I can see and feel the familial armoring up and the fear and the nervous system. And I can have like, I think one of the things it does is it really adds all kinds of compassion. Like I have so much. I have spent a lot of time being really angry about why didn't things weren't more perfect? Why didn't people get their shit together? Why didn't this get worked out? And that didn't get worked out? And why did. And I still feel some of that, like, that's not, but, but I feel like, this huge compassion around what every generation goes through and what we pass on and what we don't.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, I remember because at a certain point during that day, you get to, like when you, when, when you are on, like the, the come down the landing, as the therapists, like, like to call it, you can call in your people. Right. To be there for you so that we can, we can walk into coming off of these drugs into sobriety together. And I just remember when I first got in there, you're not, you, you're not the kind of person that, like, is, how do I say this? That is, like, cliche. Lovey dovey. In fact, it makes you feel, it makes you get the ick at times, I think when I get to lovey dovey, like, that kind of vulnerability and like, I don't know how to say this. And how would you classify yourself? I should ask.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know what you mean. Like, I'm not like, mushy gushy, like.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, you're not mushy gushy.

[Glennon Doyle]

I, I do, I feel like I am, but it's like once a year.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And you're suspect and distrustful and ick of it. There, there is something there, too. I, I, that is a family thing too, where it's like, what are you trying to pull?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yes. Yeah. And if it happens, it's happening very briefly and it's one time a year.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, Right. And it's like, don't get used to that. That was your allotment for the year.

[Amanda Doyle]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And in. I walk into this room, and she was a puddle, like a puddle of love. And she was looking at all of the pictures she brought and explained to me how much she loves everybody and how much she loved me and how much she, like, how much. All of it. All of it. All of it. All of it. And so I just, and I'm not saying that I like that person better, but I thought it was very interesting.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it is.

[Amanda Doyle]

That it could open you, like, crack you open in a way that your consciousness was, like, letting you tap into more understanding and love. And I do think that this experience while you're sitting there, sitting, seeing this younger person and your sister and you, and there was like, kind of an unlocking in that experience.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Because I think the not being mushy and the not talking about love all the time or not being. That's just a defense mechanism, just like a protection thing. Because that is how I feel. I know I feel like a very big love bug on the inside, but there's all these, like, things that block it. And I think this is just an unblocker.

[Amanda Doyle]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then after that, it was lightness and beauty and no more scared was the whole journey. It was like the dark dragon thing turned into this, like, forest it felt. And the rest of the day, the rest of the journey was utterly beautiful. And I'll tell you a little bit about it. But what was cool about that for me in retrospect was the idea of, like, that's what we talk about all the time. It's like, first the pain, then the rising. Like, go to the fear thing, face it, there it is. And then freedom is how the journey felt. So after the basement experience, the only way I can describe it is that while Sinead o' Connor came. One of the notes in my therapist's thing. I mean.

[Amanda Doyle]

No.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, my therapist said in her notes that she's never heard anyone in the history of the universe all combined together talk about Sinead o' Connor as much as I did during my eight hour journey. Sinead o' Connor was like my guide throughout the whole thing. And I have. You two know, I have very deep feelings and love for Sinead o' Connor for a million different reasons. But I am slightly obsessed.

[Amanda Doyle]

I have slight jealousy about Sinead, so that was.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting. Also, Sinead's whole, you know, so much of her work was about abuse and generational trauma and Irish families and religious trauma and oppression and all of it. I'm in the forest. It's a new realm, okay? I am now. I've gone through the thing where I figure out why I'm so scared. And then now I'm a different version of myself. I'm not an adult. I'm a kid again, which I loved because suddenly I was like a fresh, unafraid version of myself. So it was like. It was like, now you're going to look at yourself. Had you not had that fear? Okay? It was a fearless, childlike version of me. And I was walking through the forest and I was a little kid and I had a little notebook, okay? I had a little notebook and I was delightedly writing down all the things that I saw. Just look at the trees, look at the butterflies. Oh my God. The, like, just writing down all the things I saw. And then this crazy shit happened, which is my Little girl, observer self, delighted observer self, started to ask why. I was writing down what. I was writing down what I saw, what I heard, what I felt, what. And then I started to say, why? Why am I here? Why is this like that? And everything would go dark. The force would go dark.

[Abby Wambach]

When you asked why.

[Glennon Doyle]

When you asked why, and I couldn't figure out why. It kept going off and on. And then something in me said I was in the why place of my brain. I was like, stuck in the why. And so there was no more forest and my little girl self was all stressed. And then I suddenly just go out loud because it's written down in the notes. I go, I don't know. The realm of the forest comes back to life. And not only did it come back to light and life, but there were fireworks, there were flowers, exploding, confetti.

[Amanda Doyle]

You explained it to me. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was like the words, I don't know, were magical words that made the entire realm celebrate that this little girl was just back in the I don't know. And so then I go back into the force. I'm still in the forest. The celebration dies down. I'm walking, I'm writing all these beautiful things. And then I go, why darkness? I don't know. Celebration. I can control the realm by staying out of the analytical mind, staying in the awe and the observing mind. And every time I go towards the analyzing or insisting on understanding, I stop myself and go, I don't know. And the realm goes, oh, we love you. Yes, honey, yes. You don't know. Of course you don't know. Stay in the. I don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

That's really cool.

[Abby Wambach]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

So.

[Amanda Doyle]

No, you don't. You don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't.

[Amanda Doyle]

I don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know. Anyway, that is. I want to do this again because I'd love to tell you, because this is about psychedelics. And then of course, it's not about psychedelics. It's about, like, our fears and our heritage and our trauma and our joy and all of it and.

[Amanda Doyle]

Our subconscious, our psyche, our unknown, the different realms. What the hell is this? And exploration and I think staying curious as to the wonderment of not knowing what the fuck is going on.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, it was like the realm was like that. Why is my responsibility. You get back to your little girl. Joyful. Your job has always been in here. Just. Just be amazed and write down what. What is the Mary Oliver thing? Instructions for life. Be Astonished. Tell about it. Like, that's what the realm was saying to me. Like, you're, you're always above your pay grade, honey. Like, just be astonished and tell about it and let us handle the why.

[Abby Wambach]

But it's very, it's very. It feels like both. Because I feel like you can only be astonished and tell about it when you can release this kind of cage of fear that you're in. You know, like the cage of fear keeps you out of awe and into self preservation. And so I think it's beautiful that it was able to show you that why you're afraid, because that is basically like you are afraid for very, very good reason. And you are afraid biologically. And you are afraid because of the way that you were raised. Like, I think that it reminds me of the episodes that we did not only with, with Galit Atlas, with the emotional inheritance. It's like that scientifically, you know what people who survived famine even, I mean, people who survived famine, their descendants have in their bodies biologically effects of famine. Like, not because of anything that happened gestationally or in pregnancy, but because your actual DNA expression changes because of the trauma that someone experiences. So it's like biologically. And then, and then when you're raised by someone who is legitimately afraid and has based their whole survival on their ability to navigate that fear, it is a difficult thing, rendered less difficult by the fact that you don't have to face that particular trauma.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

That they had to, but you are still facing all the fears together. Like, and you are confused because you're looking around and saying, I don't. There must be something wrong with me because I don't see anything to fear here. But we're all so afraid. And I know we're supposed to be afraid, and I'm raised to be afraid and I can sense the fear, but I don't even know where it is.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's.

[Abby Wambach]

And, and so not only is our wiring, our actual biological wiring that biological inheritance, but the way we're raised to be like, this is how, this is what I can pass down to you to help you be safe from what is a burden.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Right?

[Abby Wambach]

And so we're constantly trying to figure out where it is and make it, make it make sense. And that will make you. Will be really exhausting and make you feel a little crazy when the whole world is telling you there's nothing to be afraid about, but you're very sure that it is. And, and then so to be able to see that and be like, oh.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

That makes so Much sense.

[Abby Wambach]

And then to also be able to. Like, when you first told me that story, it was devastating to me and.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Also.

[Abby Wambach]

So beautiful because it was. It made me feel like.

[Glennon Doyle]

The.

[Abby Wambach]

The giver that I thought was of the hardest parts of me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Had actually.

[Abby Wambach]

Given their best to give me the best parts of them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And that had suffered a lot and had worked really hard to shield me from the particular inheritance that they had and that they couldn't choose but to pass down part of it and that I can't choose but to pass down part of mine. But it will be smaller, just like it was smaller to me, it will be smaller to my people, and then it will be smaller again. And that, like, that is the generational work is like, I'm going to do what I can to make this, to protect you as I can and burden you the least that I can.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you're putting it into language. Just. That is such a gift for the next generation. We're not even getting it right necessarily with all this language. We're all just adding stories to things. But this is an important version of a story of our family and telling it to the next generation. You know, my children understand that I'm scared, and they understand that it's not that it's in my body and not necessarily out in the world, that it's something that I'm dealing to deal with internally. I don't need them to be as hypervigilant as me. And they know the story of why my body's like this. So putting language around it for the next generation is a key that gets them out of that cage too, you know? Yeah. So thanks for listening, you guys, and we love you so, so much. Thanks for being the people that we feel like we can share these complicated, tricky stories with and know that you will hold with love and curiosity and understanding and keep it just between us. Just keep it between us.

[Amanda Doyle]

And by no way do we. Do we present ourselves to be medical doctors or know what the we're talking about. Just want to say that this is.

[Glennon Doyle]

We don't know.

[Amanda Doyle]

We don't know.

[Abby Wambach]

I think it's pretty clear we have no idea what we're talking about.

[Amanda Doyle]

I just want to be clear. We don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us. We can do hard things on Instagram and we can do hard things show on TikTok.