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What to Do With Rage: Meggan Watterson

We Can Do Hard Things

Tue Mar 10 2026

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What to Do With Rage" — We Can Do Hard Things with Megan Watterson

Date: March 10, 2026
Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle
Guest: Meggan Watterson

Overview

In this raw and unguarded episode, the Pod Squad—Glennon, Abby, and Amanda—invite feminist theologian and writer Megan Watterson to discuss the experience, power, and purpose of rage, especially as it relates to recent revelations about abuse, complicity, and the need for change. Anchored in stories from history, theology, and their own lives, the conversation moves from grief and outrage to creative, collective action. The episode challenges the notion of “acceptable” anger, explores the connection between rage and love, and calls for reclaiming spiritual authority from patriarchal systems.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rage as a Response to Injustice and Abuse

[02:11] Megan Watterson:

Megan describes feeling a unique, "feral" rage after reading disturbing details from the Epstein files, especially around Deepak Chopra's involvement and the dismissive treatment of survivors.
She explains how the world "ended" for her after this discovery and how rage became both overwhelming and creatively generative:

“I was channeling enough rage to literally reconfigure the world. But I also couldn't make my bed. It was that kind of situation.”
She finds solace in making a list inspired by painful history: “How Women Pray When the World is on Fire,” cataloguing historical acts of women’s resistance.

2. Historical Models of Women’s Resistance

[07:23] Megan Watterson:

Shares stories of women like Mary Maloney, who used creative protest (a ringing bell to drown out Churchill) and the Mothers of the Disappeared in Argentina, and Julia Butterfly Hill, who lived in a redwood for nearly two years.
Emphasizes creativity as powerful resistance:

“We’re not going to do what we’re told to do anymore. That’s done, that’s ended. That world is over.”

3. Personal Action, Not Perfection

[11:58] Abby Wambach:

Abby reflects on taking action—leaving Wasserman agency—even without knowing the next step:

“What I loved about your statement...when you said, I don’t know what my next steps are, I just know where I can’t be. And I felt like that was so important.”
Encourages listeners to act even before having a plan; waiting for clarity can be a form of paralysis.

4. Rage, Love, and the Divine Feminine

[15:42] Megan Watterson & Abby Wambach:

The hosts discuss the hypocrisy of men—including self-proclaimed spiritual leaders—profiting from and acting as gatekeepers to women’s spirituality.
Megan: “If we claim our worth, we will know our power...The men have positioned themselves as gatekeepers to the divine via the patriarchy.”
The true divine connection is internal, not given or withheld by institutions.

5. Reclaiming Spiritual Authority: The Stories of Mary Magdalene and Thecla

[24:06] Megan Watterson:

Megan draws a parallel between the Church’s refusal to believe Mary Magdalene (calling her a prostitute) and our culture’s disbelief of survivors today.
Abby reframes the importance of self-belief:

“We must believe us...We disconnected ourselves from our inner selves and gave the strings away. Now we have to wrest those strings back.”
The story of Thecla (who baptizes herself) becomes a metaphor for claiming worth and spiritual authority without waiting for outside validation.

6. Rage as a Sacred and Collective Energy

[32:15] Abby Wambach, Megan Watterson:

Rage is reframed as a natural, even sacred, outgrowth of love:

“The people who are most filled with love are the people who are most filled with rage right now.” (Abby, [33:00])
Megan notes that spiritual traditions emphasizing submissiveness were crafted to control marginalized people. Sacred rage, she says, is listening to the voice of love.

7. End of Faith in Institutions—and Self-Baptism

[34:55] Abby Wambach, Megan Watterson:

The hosts reflect on the collapse of trust in politics, wellness, and religious institutions.
Women can no longer wait for recognition from broken systems—they must “baptize themselves” (as Thecla did), claim their inherent worth, and support each other.
Collective action is modeled through stories:

“Once it was modeled...what we can allow ourselves to completely unplug from is the Christianity that was established in the 4th century under the patriarchy.” (Megan, [37:50])

8. Solidarity and Supporting Each Other

[50:49] Abby Wambach:

Urges listeners to “throw cardamom”—support women who step up, rather than falling into internalized misogyny.
Not all women in power are to be automatically supported if they are “water carriers for the patriarchy,” but those authentically acting with love and courage should be uplifted.

9. Practical Tools and Rituals for Surviving Turbulent Times

[52:35] Megan Watterson:

Megan stresses validating your own feelings, practicing grounding rituals (like soul-voice meditation), and staying connected to love in the face of triggering news.
Anticipates a new kind of collective awakening “where love reaches where it has never been before.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Internal Authority:

“Everything comes from within.” — Megan Watterson [02:11]
“The ultimate source of power is the love that we can source inside of us. No one can keep it from us.” — Megan Watterson [16:48]

On Action Amid Uncertainty:

“You don’t have to know what happens next. You just have to know where you can’t be.” — Abby Wambach [11:58]

On Rage as Love:

“I feel like the people who are most filled with love are the people who are most filled with rage right now.” — Abby Wambach [33:00]
“Sacred rage is listening to the voice of love.” — Megan Watterson [34:34]

On Supporting Each Other:

“You were like, okay, Paul, I’m just gonna go ahead and baptize myself and write what I know is true. Because there’s another path where you just argue with Paul for your whole life...” — Abby Wambach [50:50]
“Now is the time...if there is a woman who is showing up, who is embodying this, who is doing her work, who has baptized herself, and who your nervous system knows is real, throw cardamom.” — Abby Wambach [51:13]

On Winning:

“Does winning look like saying no, like they did? No, thank you to that...and creating something full of life and beauty. Is that winning?” — Abby Wambach [56:46]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:11 | Megan discusses the feral rage and Deepak Chopra | | 05:46 | Historical stories of women's protest and resistance | | 11:11 | Abby on agency and making difference | | 15:26 | Deepak Chopra’s hypocrisy; divine authority discussion | | 19:18 | Internal worthiness and intuition | | 24:06 | Megan on believing Mary Magdalene, survivors | | 27:27 | Abby on self-belief and reclaiming agency | | 28:39 | Abby’s ESPYs story and awakening to rage | | 32:15 | Re-framing rage as love | | 34:55 | Collapse of trust in institutions | | 37:49 | Self-baptism, reclaiming pre-patriarchal spirituality | | 41:28 | Organizing for faith and justice (Sacred shoutout) | | 45:52 | The importance of showing up for each other | | 52:35 | Grounding rituals and collective awakening | | 56:46 | Redefining winning and resisting false power | | 58:26-58:56| Closing expressions of love and mutual support |

Key Takeaways

Rage is a sacred energy and a sign of deep love, not a failing.
Creative, collective action by women—past and present—is powerful and necessary.
Spiritual authority and worthiness are internal, not institutionally granted.
Self-validation and authenticity trump external approval and perfection.
Supporting women who authentically show up with courage is vital. “Throw cardamom.”
Now is the time to reclaim, reconnect with, and act on our deepest knowing and love, even in the wilderness.

Memorable Closing:

“Let’s anoint each other...Let us forever. We love you, Megan.” — Abby Wambach & Megan Watterson [58:45-58:56]

This episode is a call to harness anger as creative, collective fuel, root your actions in love, and refuse to surrender spiritual power to broken systems. Rage does not make you broken. It means you’re awake, alive, and ready to help make the world anew.

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Transcript

Abby Wambach (0:00)

Foreign. Yes.

Megan Watterson (0:10)

Hello. Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello.

Abby Wambach (0:14)

Well, Pod Squad, we have back the Megan Watterson who I just emailed last week on a particularly. Actually, they've all been particularly infuriating days, so who knows which one it was, and said, please, God, just come onto the pod, sit with us. I think I asked you to go feral with us because you had used that word. I was telling Abby that all I know to do right now, and what I want to do is just gather the people that I have long trusted who feel like they've been preparing us for a long time, for a moment like this, and just sit with them unprepared and unguarded, and just ask them, how are you? How are you doing? What are you doing? What are you thinking about? How are you getting through? And you're the first person that I knew we had to talk to. And before we get started, I do want to say that we were privately listening to the sound check you just did. And Pod Squad, I need you to know this. So our incredible producers, Allison and Marissa and Jen, they get on with the guest and they say, okay, tell us what you had for breakfast in the pod. Point is just to listen to the noise that comes out of their mouth. And most people just say bacon. 1, 2, 3, 4. So five minutes ago, Marissa said, so, Megan, just tell us what you had for breakfast. And she said, well, I was making my son an egg.

Mary Abigail (likely Abby's full name or a guest named Mary Abigail) (1:42)

Scrambled eggs.

Abby Wambach (1:44)

Scrambled eggs. And I kept thinking of eggs and Mary Magdalene and how she pointed to an egg. And I think what she meant by that pointing was that it is all within us. And that is what I think is important, is that it is all within us. That was Megan's sound check. Okay.

Mary Abigail (likely Abby's full name or a guest named Mary Abigail) (2:04)

Yeah, I'm ready for this conversation for sure.

Abby Wambach (2:08)

Megan, how are you? What are you thinking about right now?

Megan Watterson (2:11)

I really am thinking about how everything comes from within. And I do think that that's why Mary Magdalene was pointing to the egg. And I feel a very particular kind of rage. The reason why I said my rage went feral is because I believe my rage now. I believe that it has always been so well informed. It was my body telling me exactly how much work we have to do. But also in particular, you know, that had to do with Deepak Chopra and the fact that he's in the Epstein files. And, you know, for those who have read a lot of the files as a survivor, I felt like I had to read some of them for the sake of the survivors. And when I read the ones that Deepak wrote, there was this validation for My anger for the rage that I had, I've long since had for him, for the hubris of thinking that he needed to teach us about the divine feminine. That alone, you know, I was already in fuego a long time ago. But then to read his comments to Epstein, and my voice is shaking now because I'm trying to get to the email and I'm not going to repeat exactly what the email was, but it was about the littlest one, you know, Epstein's littlest one. And you know, I can't comprehend how the world hasn't ended for everyone. I don't understand that my world has ended. And after I read that email, I described it, you know, my day was like I was a very tiny, unproductive hurricane. I was channeling the rage, the creative energy, right? This is the rage that love inspires. I was channeling enough rage to literally reconfigure the world. But I also couldn't make my bed. You know, it was that kind of situation. And I just felt like my entire nervous system couldn't handle the idea of not doing anything. You know, this, this idea of moving on from the person who is named more than Christ is named in the New Testament, right? Telling us to just move on. My nervous system was only calmed by making a list. So what I did that day is I started making a list because, you know, you have long since told us what breaks our heart are who we serve. And I went into seminary because of trafficked girls. You know, that population, pregnant teens, is why I went back. And so sort of went into the whole question as to where, where did women's voices go within Christianity. I went back to seminary for pregnant teens. They were referred to as prostitutes at that time. 14 year olds, right? There's no such thing as a 14 year old prostitute.

Megan Watterson (7:56)

It's so creative and it's so powerful. And what ended up happening is that she annoyed the hell out of everyone. And he, of course, was only speaking to other men and people in positions of power. And so they were like, who is this Mary? What is she about? And so it ended up really raising awareness about the fight for women's right to vote. Then there was the mothers of the disappeared in Argentina, 1977, when their, you know, young adult children were being disappeared in the middle of the night by the reign of terror. They started gathering together, wearing white scarves and just demanding that this government be held accountable for the disappearance of their children. There was Julia Butterfly Hill, who was. When I was an. A budding eco feminist and, like, really considering joining her. This was like, in 1997, she stayed in a redwood tree named Luna for almost two years to protect it from being logged. Like, so she just stayed up in that tree. There's the women of Liberia, Mass Action for Peace. They join together Christian and Muslim women, and they protest wearing all white in front of the presidential palace to end the Liberian civil war. They just refused, you know, like thecla, at the beginning of the acts of Paul and thecla, they refused to go on with life as is. And that's absolutely where I am. Like, my nervous system can't. I can't not be utterly changed by this. My world has ended. And for me, I. I am actively creating the circumstances for the new world to come about, I have to only focus on that. And I don't know what my action is yet. You know, I love that Florence Welch right now has everybody scream tour. Because I feel like screaming is a form of prayer right now. And Abby, I just want to say as a survivor, it does something to my nervous system. Know for you to have stood up and left the Wasserman agency, it's like at the beginning of the Gospel of Mary there's this beautiful passage that for me is. Is an articulation of love. It's every nature, every modeled form, every creature exists in and with each other. That to me is. That's love. And when you stood up and you refused to be a part of that agency as a direct action, that love was inspiring you to do. I'm connected to you, you're connected to me. You are demonstrating that fact that we exist in and with each other and. And it calmed my nervous system. It changed me, you leading in that way. And that's on my list. How women pray when the world is. You're on my list.

Abby Wambach (11:58)

We could not do something before we do something. What I loved about your statement when you left Wasserman, when you said, I don't know what my next steps are, I just know where I can't be. And I felt like that was so important. It was vulnerable. But it also was about accountability for other people. Because what people tend to decide is, well, I guess I'll do something when I have everything figured out. When I know my next steps, when I know where I'm going, when. And I don't know that this is a time for that. Like, this is a time what Megan, you're saying is, no, no, no, I'm going to stop my world whether or not I know where I'm Stepping next, I am detaching myself, at least from this monstrous nightmare that I have always known was present. And, Megan, that's why I feel so deeply connected to you, is because as a person who has. And I'm not going to say a lot of this right, because it's still spinning, but who has sat in therapy for 40 years where people. And there's so much I love about therapy, but where basically the message was like, everything's okay, and you're just going to have to understand that everything's okay somehow. And here are your strategies. I have always been like, okay, I guess I have to pretend to believe you. But I have always known that everything was not okay. I have always known that was horseshit. I have always known that just maybe because I'm particularly safe in my home with my. Does not mean that anyone else is safe. Just because I could, you know, protect my peace doesn't mean that that's the definition of what peace is for me. That peace is about continuing to make yourself vulnerable until more people have peace. That I knew that these motherfuckers were doing this shit in every locker room, in every meeting, in every back end. That I knew that they were profiting off of women and then turning around and raping them behind their backs. That they were laughing in locker rooms. That they using the feminist movement to make money and find a place. And then the second they're in private, they are laughing at us. The indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. We all knew this in our bones. And so now is the great UN Gaslighting of women. Now is the time where before maybe we were saying, oh, God, can we trust ourselves? What is this rage? Maybe more meditation. Fuck, fuck, fuck. Maybe more retreats. Maybe more like, no more retreating. As my sister says, the rage now is out. It's outrage. It no longer stays inside of us and eats us alive. We unleash it like dragons. And so when you're talking about the women, you know, what about the troubles in Ireland? That was all the women, the mothers saying, enough death, Enough death. And Protestants and Catholics coming together and saying, that's enough. We're marching. And also, let's tell people, just in case they don't know what you're talking about with this Deepak Chopra piece of shit. It's so funny when I'm talking about these guys now I'm using was all the time, like, they're gone.

Megan Watterson (24:06)

I recently was interviewed by Diane Sawyer about the Gospel of Mary for a documentary and she asked me this unbelievable question that was so good I kind of left my body. So I have no idea how I answered it. Like for the documentary. But I have super low bar for myself in situations like that. It's pretty much just don't pass out, you know. Cause it's like, it's so unnatural being in a, you know, a studio. And it's just so intense for me. And I know what that costs me, you know, to try to do something like that. So I was just like, mercy for myself, just try not to slowly slip out of the chair and pass out on the floor during the interview. But she asked me this question that was so good. She said, if you could say one thing to Pope Leo, what would it be? And so again, I have no idea what I actually said because I sort of left my body. But I've been thinking about that ever since she asked it. And what I finally came to was the one thing I would say to him is I believe Mary. And the reason I would say that if it could only be one statement that's the most important statement, is that I think that there is a direct connection within the Gospel of Mary. At the end of it, the disciples don't believe her. Peter asks her to tell them what she knows that they don't because she's a woman, because Christ loved her more than all other women. And then at the end of it, he doesn't believe her. He says, are we to think that the Savior gave her secret teachings a woman, and didn't speak openly so that we would all hear? And then he says, surely he did not want to show that she is more worthy than we are. And it's like, yes, Peter, actually that's exactly what Christ wanted to show, is that Mary is as worthy as you are. But he doesn't believe her. And Andrew chimes in, is like, yeah, her teachings are really strange. And then it's only Levi who comes to her defense, and he says, if the Savior considered her worthy, who are you to disregard her? So there's that worth. And I think there's a direct correlation between the fact that the disciples don't believe Mary within her own gospel, that what she's saying is true. Then the church, by the 6th century labels her the prostitute, which she never was. And then here we are in the 21st century and we still don't believe. Survivors, like, to me, there is a direct correlation. We still don't believe Mary. Mary Magdalene, for the majority of people around the world, is still the penitent prostitute, even though that has long since by scholars and by the Church itself, been established as a fiction. She's still the penitent prostitute. And her gospel is still considered apocryphal of doubtful authenticity. To me, there's a connection. There's a direct connection. And I believe Mary, and I believe it matters that we still don't believe Mary.

Mary Abigail (likely Abby's full name or a guest named Mary Abigail) (28:39)

I think that there's going to be a lot of folks who are listening to this that haven't connected all of this to rage yet, because a lot of us might be feeling a little bit lost in that. There may have been, I won't say, easier acceptance to what was, like, the way of the world, the world order of. For me growing up in sport, right? Like, I just knew women's sports was not as popular as men's sports. So I was just like, all right, I'm just going to run uphill. I'm going to just. This is what I'm going to do for my life. But there was some kind of internal acceptance to feeling inferior to men. And it wasn't until I was 36 years old, standing on a stage, when the rage finally came. And it was when I was at the ESPYs and I was getting the same Icon ESPY award from espn, the SB nationally televised award show for sports. I was getting the same award as Kobe and Peyton. It wasn't until I walked off that stage knowing that the three of us were walking into three very different retirements, that I actually let myself feel rage. I think that so many of us don't want to express or even feel rage because it Feels counterintuitive in some ways to love. And so I just want to acknowledge anyone out there who might be seeing all that's going on in the world with the Epstein files and our government and all of the. All of it and feeling so confused and kind of muddled up and bottled up. It is okay that you haven't found the rage yet, but I want to invite you because it's a vulnerability. It is letting yourself admit to yourself that this is something you've been carrying kind of silently. I mean, this is going to make me cry a little, but, like, the locker room, the laughter, you know, like, I think of myself as somebody who can just, like, brush it off. And I think we've been doing it for so long, and I keep giving men the benefit of the doubt, especially male athletes, the benefit out. Well, they just don't know. And this is just what their locker rooms are like. And there's just something about the most recent men's hockey locker room incident where they were laughing about the women's hockey team also being invited, needing to be invited to the fucking state of the Union that they declined, thank God. But, like, their laughter fudge you and also our women's hockey team and also our women's soccer team are way more fucking successful than your fucking little baby teams. Like, what are you talking about laughing at us? Are you laughing because there are, like, quote, unquote, less fans in your eyes because we make less money in your eyes? Like, no, this is not okay. And so I just want to say, like, if you haven't yet gotten to rage or let rage in, walk in the door, it could be time. And I just want to acknowledge that, like, it is. It is hard and vulnerable to let that in.

Abby Wambach (34:55)

And we have to be okay with the wilderness for a minute. I think, I mean, I know that one of the internal terrors of this moment is losing every faith in every structure that we had before. And this has been a deconstruction for people over time and some people are further ahead than others. But there are a lot of people that had faith that really thought that our political system was for the most part, some good guys and bad guys and that, you know, all of that is gone. For a lot of people, faith in the political system of our country is gone. Faith in religious institutions with the silences and the COVID ups and the abuse and the complicity is gone. Anybody, I don't know anybody personally who had faith in the wellness industry, so I don't know how that faith was created, but certainly that's over. I mean, the amount of people who have professed to be in service of others and have been hurting people behind the scenes. And how many people have been quiet about that? If it doesn't cause a mass exodus from that industry, it should. Honestly, a lot of people's families. I mean, I have a lot of friends who are married to men who are maybe not in the Epstein files. Like, maybe they're not child rapists, but their silence and lukewarm nothingness about this. Where are the good men? I guess I keep hearing that they exist. People keep telling me that, but where the fuck are they? The fact that they are not out in the streets, the fact that they have called themselves protectors, branded themselves as protectors for so long. Where the hell are they? Women are married to these men, having to sleep in bed next to them, or where really all the most they can, you know, muster themselves to do is to. To tolerate their wives. Activism. Where's their rage? Where's their organizing? Where is the effort they can find to make a fucking fantasy football team with their buddies and the organization and care they can put into that? Where is that sort of organizing to protect the women and the children and the humanity in their lives? Any thoughts? Megan Watterson?