What We Don’t Talk About: Raising Older Kids

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What We Don’t Talk About: Raising Older Kids"

Podcast Information:

• Title: We Can Do Hard Things
• Host/Author: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle
• Episode: What We Don’t Talk About: Raising Older Kids
• Release Date: October 31, 2024
• Description: In this heartfelt episode, the hosts delve into the often-overlooked challenges of parenting older children. They share personal insights, struggles, and strategies for navigating the complex transition as children grow into independent individuals.

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1. Introduction and Listener Engagement

The episode opens with the hosts expressing gratitude to their listeners and engaging in brief promotional segments for partnerships with Masterclass and Bombas. These advertisements are seamlessly integrated into the conversation but are set aside to focus on the episode's core content.

2. Listener Call-In: Laurel’s Story [04:23]

The discussion pivots when a listener named Laurel calls in with a poignant question:

• Laurel ([04:23]): “I was 15 when I had my son and 18 when his father passed. So I became a single parent. I was so young and giving so much to being a parent that so much of my identity is wrapped inside of being a mother to him. So my question is, do you have advice or ways you're dealing with this transition?”

Laurel's heartfelt inquiry sets the stage for a deep exploration of the invisible struggles parents face when their children transition into adulthood.

3. Hosts Share Personal Experiences [05:18 - 14:23]

Abby Wambach ([05:19]): Abby opens up about her own challenges, reflecting on how parenting older kids differs significantly from raising young children. She shares:

• “When kids reach a certain age, they start looking at you differently. They see you as a fallible person, not as a perfect parent.” [08:00]

Amanda Doyle ([05:18]): Amanda echoes similar sentiments, discussing the shock of seeing a parent change physically and emotionally:

• “I always thought dad was like 6'2, and one day I saw him as 5'11. It was startling to see him as he really is, not the larger-than-life figure I imagined.” [08:42]

These personal anecdotes highlight the emotional shifts parents undergo as their children mature.

4. Emotional and Identity Struggles [14:10 - 29:02]

Abby Wambach ([14:23]): Abby delves deeper into her internal struggles, describing how her identity became intertwined with motherhood:

• “I have never stopped reverse-engineering my life with my kids. Parenting older children requires more wisdom and compassion because we are all still growing.” [29:02]

Glennon Doyle ([23:03]): Glennon addresses the pervasive feelings of fear and helplessness:

• “Being a human being in this particular world is much harder than I understood it was when I was 25.” [23:08]
• “I think it's really painful to be on this planet. I'm not having an easy breezy time.” [23:43]

The hosts candidly discuss the anxiety and existential fears that surface as children gain independence, emphasizing the complexity of maintaining a strong bond while allowing for individual growth.

5. The Challenge of Individuation [25:00 - 35:42]

Amanda Doyle ([25:00]): Amanda poses a critical question about the nature of parental fear:

• “Is the fear that you can no longer choose what happens to them, or is it knowing that they get to choose what role you have in their lives?” [25:00]

Abby Wambach ([27:02]): Abby reflects on the concept of individuation—the process by which children become their own people:

• “Individuation is the moment when people realize they are separate from you and that they will decide their own path.” [27:02]

This segment underscores the inevitable shift in the parent-child relationship, where children begin to form their own identities and boundaries.

6. Coping Strategies and Insights [29:02 - 43:22]

Glennon Doyle ([31:32]): Glennon shares strategies for maintaining connection:

• “It is our job to create novelty and adventure for our children because we cannot control how they think about their childhood.” [31:32]

Abby Wambach ([35:42]): Abby introduces the idea of accepting the assassination of the parent image as part of the individuation process:

• “Children have to ‘kill’ the parent to develop their own way. As parents, our job is to not die in that process and remain a steady resource.” [35:42]

Amanda Doyle ([42:01]): Amanda emphasizes the shift from needing to being wanted:

• “You cannot need your children. When you need them, they will not want you.” [43:01]

The hosts provide profound insights into letting go, fostering independence, and maintaining a supportive presence without overstepping into neediness.

7. Embracing a New Identity [43:22 - 52:10]

Abby Wambach ([43:19]): Abby confronts her fear of becoming irrelevant:

• “I don't know if I can do it on my own, but I know that they can.” [44:37]

Glennon Doyle ([48:12]): Glennon highlights the advancements that make long-distance parenting feasible:

• “We live in an age where you have FaceTime and robots could help bridge the gap.” [48:24]

Amanda Doyle ([52:10]): Amanda summarizes the paradox of parenting older children:

• “When your work comes to fruition, your children will not need you, yet you want them to need you on some base level.” [41:05]

The conversation shifts towards embracing new roles and identities as parents, recognizing the importance of evolving alongside their children.

8. Conclusion: Acceptance and Compassion [50:25 - End]

Abby Wambach ([50:25]): Abby concludes with a message of solidarity and encouragement:

• “This episode was to make other people feel like they're doing okay. We all go through the hard, messy middle.” [50:25]

Glennon Doyle and Amanda Doyle ([52:10 - End]): The hosts wrap up by affirming their continuous journey of self-discovery and mutual support:

• “We love you and we'll see you back here next time if you're brave enough.” [52:10]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Abby Wambach ([08:00]): “When kids reach a certain age, they start looking at you differently. They see you as a fallible person, not as a perfect parent.”

• Glennon Doyle ([23:43]): “I think it's really painful to be on this planet. I'm not having an easy breezy time.”

• Amanda Doyle ([25:00]): “Is the fear that you can no longer choose what happens to them, or is it knowing that they get to choose what role you have in their lives?”

• Amanda Doyle ([43:22]): “You cannot need your children. When you need them, they will not want you.”

• Abby Wambach ([50:25]): “This episode was to make other people feel like they're doing okay. We all go through the hard, messy middle.”

---

Key Takeaways

• Emotional Transition: As children grow older, parents experience a profound emotional shift, transitioning from caretakers to supporters of their children's independent lives.

• Identity Struggle: Parents often grapple with redefining their identities beyond being parents, leading to feelings of loss and confusion.

• Individuation: The process of children developing their own identities necessitates parents to let go and allow their children to make independent choices.

• Compassion and Acceptance: Embracing compassion for both the children and oneself is crucial in navigating this challenging phase.

• Maintaining Connection: Finding new ways to stay connected without overstepping helps sustain a healthy parent-child relationship.

---

Conclusion: In "What We Don’t Talk About: Raising Older Kids," Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle offer a raw and honest exploration of the complexities involved in parenting older children. Through personal stories and thoughtful discussions, they shed light on the emotional turmoil, identity crises, and evolving relationships that come with this phase of life. The episode serves as a comforting reminder that while raising older kids is undeniably hard, parents are not alone in their struggles and can indeed do hard things together.

Transcript

[Glennon Doyle]

It's hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up my dream mentor, Amy Poehler. So I was really excited when I heard she had a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass you can learn from the best to become your best. It's the only streaming platform where you can grow with over 200 plus of the world's top experts. For just $10 a month, an annual membership gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. One of the classes that really stood out to me was James Clear's course on building new Habits. I had been struggling with consistency and his practical advice helped me create a daily routine that's actually sustainable. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] hardthings that's 15% [e-mail] hardthings don't wait. Start learning from the best today.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Yes, it really does.

[Abby Wambach]

It really does. It's kind of amazing actually. It never stops blowing my mind.

[Amanda Doyle]

Oh also Kim, you check and see if wherever you listen to our podcast to make sure that you're following. Like checking that check mark or subscribed.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was unchecked the other day. I was like what the heck?

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, it's happening to more and more people, and then folks are saying that they're missing episodes. So just make sure you're either subscribed or following. It's just check the check button and you won't miss.

[Abby Wambach]

What does that mean? Where are they doing this? I don't even know what you're saying.

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, so, like, if you listen on Apple podcasts, there's a check at the top. If you listen on Odyssey, there's a way to follow. If you listen on Spotify, you can follow. It's just making sure that your app that you're listening to podcast is feeding it to you.

[Abby Wambach]

Got it.

[Amanda Doyle]

So you don't miss seeing that we have new episodes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. If it says follow with a plus mark next to it, press it and then you'll follow us. Look for the checkmark.

[Abby Wambach]

Do that because we miss you when you're gone. Today, someone named Laurel called in and asked a question that corresponded with the most intense feelings that I'm having in my life that I've ever had.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah, that is saying something, folks.

[Abby Wambach]

Sister, I think I'm serious. Red alert. Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Something.

[Abby Wambach]

Laurel.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me too, by the way.

[Abby Wambach]

I know, right? So I. For you, too, both.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, but we're just. We process it and handle it very differently.

[Abby Wambach]

You'll be shocked to know the three.

[Amanda Doyle]

Of you, you two and Laurel having big feelings. I can't wait to hear.

[Abby Wambach]

Abby, Laurel and I are struggling, and we need you to carve out some time for us, Laurel. Let's go, Sister.

[Laurel]

Hi, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda. My name is Laurel. I am 35 years old, and my son is going to be 20 this year. I hear on the pod episodes how Abby and Glennon are at this point of parenting where your children are physically leaving the nest. And I am at that same similar point. I was 15 when I had my son and 18 when his father passed. So I became a single parent. I was so young and giving so much to being a parent that so much of my identity is wrapped inside of being a mother to him. So my question is, do you have advice or ways you're dealing with this transition? It has been so hard for me. I know I can do it because I'm reminded every time I listen to your podcast that I can do hard things. Your words have helped me heal and grow in so many ways. And hoping you have some words on this topic as well. Thanks for everything.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Laurel. I thought that I was going to be okay with this stage in my life. I really did. I thought I have always thought of myself as a person who's forward looking instead of backward looking. That is always how I've been just naturally, like, forward, forward. We're moving forward. And I really thought that I was going to be like, okay, we've all done our best and let's just keep going. I have been stunned by how difficult this time period is for me. The period that I'm in is that Our oldest is 21, middle is 18, third is 16. The oldest is into senior year in college. The middle one just graduated from high school, and the youngest one is a junior. I think maybe everybody's situation with this is a little bit different. And I think sometimes I miss the days of when they were so little and you could just talk about it and talk about it and talk about it because parenting young kids is so hard, but there's such a community around it. I think before they get like real personalities and lives, you just feel like it's fair game to talk about them. And then there comes a point where it's just not like their lives are their own and it's just not your story anymore to tell. And so that it ends up being very lonely raising older kids because you don't know how to talk to other people about it without revealing too much about your kids. So as I talk about this, I'm just going to try so hard to stay in my experience, which actually isn't too hard because it's so clearly not about them right now. But the experience that I have had is that when the kids reach a certain age, they start, like, looking at you differently. This is what I have noticed. It's like for a while they think you know, everything and what you're doing is right and your family's way is the way and all. And then they go off and they meet all these other people. I know I've mentioned this dynamic before. And they see different families and they learn about the world and then they just look at you as they should. They look at you less of like a God of their life and more of a coach or a person that has made certain decisions. Like a human being. They look at you like a human being and that like, what's the word I'm searching for? Fallible.

[Amanda Doyle]

As if you were mortal, human.

[Glennon Doyle]

They. They look at you as a fallible person, not as a perfect person.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. Who has made decisions.

[Amanda Doyle]

I remember the moment that happened with dad for me, really, just so you know, like, I always thought dad was like 6:2, because larger than life, huge life Force. I always, like, if people ask, I'm like, oh, he's like six'two whatever. And I remember one time I came home from college and I looked at him and I was like, you're like 511. And I was so shocked because I was like, when did you lose five inches? It just. I could see him as he was instead of how he was in my mind.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, that's it. Right? Like, that's a literal, bodily example of, like, all of it. You can feel them looking at you differently. I can feel the questions they're asking with their minds at me. I can hear for the things they're trying to make sense of in their childhood. I can see them looking at me. Whereas when they were 10, I know that they saw me as a fearless leader. And now they're seeing me as what is closer to the truth, probably, which is like, a person who's a little afraid and anxious and controlling things and a little lost sometimes and like, certainly doing the best she can, but just open for questions and a fearless leader.

[Amanda Doyle]

All of these things.

[Abby Wambach]

Right, Right. Or fearful leader. Fearful leader. That's a fearful leader. A bold and fearful leader.

[Amanda Doyle]

Fearful leader.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I know that you're making kind of a joke of it.

[Abby Wambach]

No, I'm not.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, the fearful leader, I would completely disagree with you. I think that that's your fear. I'm going to call out what I do not agree with when it comes up, just so that you're not solidifying language or a problem process around it. Because I think that that's really important too.

[Abby Wambach]

I relate to Laurel when her kid's father passed away. Like, I can only imagine the focus and the like forgetting everything else. And okay, here's what I am for on this planet. I am the only one he has. I had different scenario than that in that my mother origin story was that I was a severe addict. For Sister, I just want you to know as an aside, that I just, for some reason, next to my podcast equipment, I have the big book, the Alcoholics Anonymous book. And I needed to make a note about something I wanted to say. So I opened up the book because it's the only paper that I have to jot a note down. And I just found this. I opened it up. It's the first page of Alcoholics Anonymous book. And it says in it, to my sister, who I want so much with faith, hope and love, your Mandy. Which means that, holy shit, you must have given me this book at a time when I was still drinking, because why would you say I want you so much. You must have. Anyway. I just think that's. Anyway.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

When I had Chase, I had been gone since I was 10 years old, so I became believed when I was 10. And then it morphed into every other addiction. And so there was an element of goneness I did not experience maturing into adulthood. I was going to say, like, other people, but I can just say, period. And that's funny, but it's very real to me. Like, I sometimes feel like I have these wide swaths of confusion that other people don't have that I think is really based on not being engaged in developmental stages that other people have. Like learning how to have friendships, learning how to handle your feelings, learning how to have agency in the world. I had to learn these things in a different way because from 10 to 26, Gonzo. Becoming pregnant with my first kid, the way that I became a human being or an adult was not through, like, the normal pattern. I used to say, what would this kid's mom do? What would a good mom do? I didn't really base it on instinct. I based it on, like, what would the perfect mother of this being do? One decision. One day, one month at a time. I, with my oldest, have never stopped doing that. I do not have a self. I lose myself around my oldest more than I lose myself around anyone else. My friend Alec said to me once, I was talking about, like, literally a work decision. A work decision that my oldest kid doesn't give a shit about and doesn't know. And I was thinking it through his eyes, like, would this be something that his mom would do? And she started laughing. She said, this is Alex Hedison, who now the Pod Squad knows so well. She said, I just think it's so funny that you're a public feminist, you are a lesbian, you run a company with your sister and your wife, and you have still found a way to revolve your entire life around a man. Like, yes, that is correct. Now, because I see myself, it's like I objectify myself. I am not in my body. I'm trying to look at myself through his eyes all the time. And so I feel like I'm acting or something, or I'm trying to prove that I'm a good mom or a good person, or, like, I lose myself in conversation. I find myself lately wanting to explain myself. That's the only way that I know how to describe it. I feel a desperation to sit my kids down and be like, okay, here's every parenting decision that I made.

[Amanda Doyle]

Here's why I need you to understand the context. You're just seeing it from your perspective. But, like, let's just take it up 64,000ft. And surely you're going to see how you would agree with me wholeheartedly on.

[Abby Wambach]

All of these things. Yes. And, like, I want them to watch a million videos of every day of their lives and me loving them so much. I want. Want to go through pictures so that they can remember all of our days. I just want to remind them. I just feel like suddenly everyone has amnesia. And I just want to, like, cover my house in pictures of everything, which I have never had. I have never had this nostalgia feeling that has risen up in me like I've never experienced. And I feel like for so long with kids, it's like the love for each other is like beams of light. It's like my eyeballs to your eyeballs. And it's just love from me to you, you to me. Your eyes are always on me. My eyes are always on you. And now it's just not a beam. It's just, like, fractaled and diffused everywhere. And I can't gather it. I don't know how to gather it. I can't gather everybody. I can't gather the love. I can't explain it in a narrative. And I was in an airport recently, and this poor woman who was a pod squatter walked up to me in the airport, and she was like, glennon. And I met her. She said, I have three kids, too. And I said, how old are your kids? And she said, they're 4 and 7 and 10. And I just started crying. I just started crying. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I don't even know why I'm doing this right now. And she said, this is the exact experience I would expect to have with you. I'm so happy. And then she left. There was no explanation. She was like, thank you for that service. Yeah. I just. I never want another baby. Okay. But I want my babies. I just want a day where I can just, like, go to their crib, and they're just, like, looking at me, and it's like their whole world and everything's less confusing, and I feel scared. I feel suddenly terrified because I knew how to do parenting when my job was just to, like, keep them in our little community, in our little school, in our little house. They were, like, in my grip. I knew what to do, but I don't know how to protect them or I don't even know how to support them. In their big lives, like, when they're out in the world. So I'm panicked all the time, and I'm being so horribly annoying. I am texting them to check on them. I am doing that all the time. If I don't hear back, I feel panicked. Like, something for sure happened. And I. I don't want to be, like, a job for them. Like, I don't want to be something they have to manage. I want to be a resource for them. I don't want to be a job, you know? But the world is so scary, and I feel like. And trying to understand why I suddenly feel so scared for them out in the world. And I think at the base of it is I have a real ambivalence about life. I feel like had I thought it through, I'm not sure that I would have brought people that I love this much here. I know that sounds.

[Amanda Doyle]

Life is the wrong itinerary for people.

[Abby Wambach]

That you love that much. I think. I feel that. I truly feel that. I feel like a person who has taken their favorite people in the entire world and invited them to a party. But you know, that feeling when you invite people to a place and then you're responsible for their experience. You are the one who brought them there. And so there is horrible people and violence and the world, the party. Like, you are responsible for helping them survive this party. And so I feel like I told Abby recently when she was. I don't know, somebody mentioned something, and then I immediately got online to, like, send them something that they need. I don't know, that no one asked for. And I told her, I feel like it's the Hunger Games, and I have brought them to the arena, and the only thing I can do is be the person who sends in the provisions. Like, that's like, that's my job. And I don't think that that is a helpful way of thinking. Like, I understand that I'm going to need to be in a different place, but I really feel like I wanted to explain what it actually feels like to me in the moment, because I do think, knowing myself, I'll get to a better place. But this is what it is now. And I feel like I'm constantly thinking, I cannot believe that I brought you here for this. And one day I'll be gone, and I'll just be leaving you at this party.

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[Glennon Doyle]

Do you think it's true that the world is all bad?

[Abby Wambach]

I do not think that the world is all bad. I think that being a human being in this particular world, in this moment, on this planet, or maybe any moment, is much harder than I understood it was when I was 25.

[Glennon Doyle]

Why? Why do you think that?

[Abby Wambach]

I just think it's really painful to be on this planet. I'm not having an easy breezy time. I think at the end of the day that I think it's like 51% worth it, but it's not 90 for me.

[Amanda Doyle]

Not a slam dunk. It's real close.

[Abby Wambach]

It's not a slam dunk. And I'm raising deeply feeling people who are paying attention to the world who are like, I mean, where's your problem? I recently saw a meme that said somebody asked me about how I feel about recent events and I said I am against them. That's how I feel. Con.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm con, not pro.

[Abby Wambach]

Right. And so as an example, the kid was home. I'm spinning a little bit, doing my best to be activated, like doing all my things about the world and in particular the Palestine genocide. And I was just trying to present a cozy, happy house at that time. So every time the kid came upstairs, I was like off the computer and like painting or like turning on music so that it would feel like just trying to create. This kid sits down and what the kid is struggling with is how the world is going on. And everyone's acting like they don't care with what's going on in Palestine. I'm like doing the opposite of what the kid needed. That's how it always is.

[Amanda Doyle]

Okay, can I ask a quick question?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, please, please.

[Amanda Doyle]

I'm wondering, as you're talk, I'm catching threads of a couple of things and I'm wondering is the fear that knowing you won't be able to control or choose what happens to them, which to a large extent you could do when they were young, you could choose what happens to them and choose what doesn't happen to them is that you can no longer choose what happens to them. Or is it knowing that from here on out, they get to choose what role you have?

[Abby Wambach]

I think it's probably that, too. Yeah. Maybe that's why I'm so wanting them to know all of my explanations. And, like, I want them to see me as a good mom. I'm sending them freaking TikToks. I don't even know. I'm not on TikTok. But, like, I'll see something come through. That's, like, why it's good to have an overprotective moment. And I'll send it to them on the family chat. I'm trying to, like, shape their narrative about.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're campaigning.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm campaigning. I'm campaigning. Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

But that could come from the same fear. Right? You need them to see you as good. A good mother with good judgment who made every best decision and tormented yourself to think of what was best for them and make those decisions, not just to vindicate the last 20 years of your life, but to ensure that you remain very prominent and relied upon and engrossed in their life going forward.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Like, the last thing I need is for anybody thinking for themselves. The last thing I need is for any of these people to decide on their own what the hell all this was.

[Amanda Doyle]

You're making sort of like a joke about it.

[Abby Wambach]

It's true.

[Amanda Doyle]

But if this is a point of individuation where they realize they are separate from you and that you are a person and they are a different person than that, and that they're gonna have feelings and thoughts and judgments that don't flow through your filter before it comes to them, then it follows that they will get to decide what happened to them up until this point and analyze that and what part of them they like and don't like. And they will get to decide how much you had to do with that, and they will get to decide how much of a role you have in their life and how much of an influence you have in their life going forward. And that's terrifying.

[Abby Wambach]

Especially when individuation is the moment that people realize that they are two separate people. I understand that our children are now becoming their own person. What I don't understand is what I am now.

[Amanda Doyle]

Amen. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

I became a person. My therapist is always like, there's two of you. Like, it's. You're a person to them. You're. Okay, well, what is that? Because I was not a person before I had these kids. I was a raging mess and didn't do anything intentionally and had no personality. Okay. I became a person as their mom. I don't know. It's like the first time I've ever even slightly understood, Abby, what you went through at the end of soccer. I never understood really, what people are talking about, because I don't. Like, if somebody said you can't ever be a writer anymore, I'd be like, cool. If somebody said you can't ever do a podcast anymore, I'd be like, all right. There's nothing that you can say to me that feels like the stripping of an identity. This part, I feel like I don't understand how to exist as a person.

[Glennon Doyle]

It makes so much sense.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's not that I'm scared that they are becoming people. I'm creating narratives because I don't know what the hell they're looking at. Separate than this. When they look at me, separate than this thing, this role that I've always had, which is now changing so much. And I also think that one of the things we don't talk about as much as women or. I've never had a moment where I felt like I truly belonged in a group of people. I've searched for it until this little family.

[Amanda Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's not just identity. It's also this belongingness. The only real belongingness I've ever felt in my entire fucking life is in this little house with these particular people. So it's not just about them and being out in the scary world. It's about me being in the scary world again. Like, I don't know to whom I belong.

[Glennon Doyle]

I've been in therapy about this too. Cause I know the transition from soccer out of soccer was really difficult for me, that I wanna be a little bit more prepared. We have two years before the youngest goes off to college. And one thing that I'm thinking about is through their eyes. Like, you're pretty good at figuring out looking through their eyes, like, trying to create the experience for them. Like, what do you want to do as a parent to create this next experience positive for them? And I think about my experience leaving my parents house, and one of my concerns since I was the youngest was like, God, what is my mom going to do? That was a concern of mine and a worry of mine. That's interesting that, like, she spent her whole life, seven children, caring for human beings, and I didn't know what she would do. Now, a few years later, she had her first grandbaby, and that's what she ended up doing. But my point is, it is our job to not make them worried about that agree it is our job to have stuff to do, to create novelty, to create adventure, to create things. Because the truth is, we cannot control how they think about their childhood.

[Abby Wambach]

It's never been clearer to me that this moment in parenting. I have always tried to figure out what they are, where they are developmentally and what they need from me in that. That I'm good at. Okay. I'm reverse engineering my entire life all the time. What version of me is going to be best between the ages of 8 and 10? What version of me is going to be. And I was trained as a teacher, so that is very. That comes very naturally to me, like working backwards that way. This Laurel. It feels to me like parenting these older kids is actually figuring out our approach. Laurel. Is just as important as figuring out our approach when they're 1 or when they're 3 or when they're 5. The answer is not, well, that's it. Fuck it. I'm on my own. It's just a different version of parenting that maybe requires 10 times as much wisdom and 10 times as much attention, actually, in different ways. Okay. I think I had this idea that grownups have kids. People who have grown up have children, and then they help their children grow up. What I now understand is that I have been growing up alongside my kids since the day that they were born, that I was a baby when I got pregnant with my oldest, and that I have with the consciousness that I had all along. I grew up the best way that I knew how while also helping another little one grow up, which has been hard and tricky and messy, and there's probably a million things that I'd do differently with this consciousness, except no, because then I wouldn't want them to be any different than they are. So maybe not even that. Okay? So I think that this moment, it requires just massive, skillful amounts of compassion for our little ones who are going to have so many questions for us about why we did what we did, and we're not going to be able to answer half of them. And such simultaneous compassion for ourselves because we are still growing up, and we were growing up the whole time, and we made this ridiculous decision to raise people while raising ourselves. And that is hard. So it's like, I just want to have. In this time, going forward, I want to have that soft front and strong back, meaning I want to be a space where my older kids can have questions and criticism and I can handle it. I can handle it. That I don't have any shame, because shame shuts everything down. And Makes them not. This. This time in our life is a call for zero, whatever the equivalent of white fragility is, like parental fragility. This is not a time for fragility. Right. This is a time for. I can be so open to all of your questions because I know how much compassion I have for myself. Because I have finally figured out that this is never about good mom, bad mom, good childhood, bad childhood. That we have all just been doing the best that we can. And the best that we can in this time is this double helix of compassion, which amazingly adds this triple helix of compassion that for the first time, I have true deep compassion for my parents.

[Glennon Doyle]

I wondered when we were going to get there.

[Abby Wambach]

Listen, I'm still pissed about a lot of shit, but I understand now. That's all I can say. I understand that we don't know everything. Yeah. And it's like what Abby's therapist said to her at one point, which I thought that was so brilliant. And I think about every day, which is this idea that the job of kids, of a 20 year old, of a 15 year old. For some kids it happens earlier at 13. For some, they'll be 40 when it happens. But there is this assassination of the parent. And it's like the job of the kid is to kill the parent off. And that is so important for individuation. Like that's a developmental stage. Like they have to decide where bad or decide where whatever, so that they can make their own way. And so it is their job to kill the parent. And it is the job of the parent not to die. To maintain this level of. Like, I'm thinking of it as like a sovereignty right now. I'm thinking of it as. My energy right now is. I am chasing everyone. I am desperate. My energy is just like reaching out and grabbing at them and grabbing at them. And that is not where I want to be. I want to be on a fucking throne in my house. I want to be. Not the throne of like, I was a great mom. So don't poke any holes in the story I have for myself. Just the centeredness of a person who knows that it's not about good and bad. And that at every moment of this life with them, I have loved them, sometimes poorly, sometimes amazingly. And so I have like this centered faith in that, right, that I'm okay and that they can come. I. I have this friend who. I was doing a yoga class the other day and she teaches it and she always lets us pick one of those. I think it's tarot. Is that how you say it?

[Glennon Doyle]

We say tarot, but yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So, okay, I don't know what it is, but I pulled one and it was called the Hermit. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so me. And I made a joke. I was like, does this mean I don't have to leave the house anymore, ever? And she said that card is about a person who, yes, the vibe of staying home, which is metaphorical, right? Like home in your body, home in your whatever, but who always has a light on so that people are attracted to that, so that people come back to get your light. I want them to see my peace and strength and juicy, beautiful life and trust it and want it enough to ask for my help and my thoughts and to see me as a steady resource that they can come back to and refuel and so that they can go out into their lives and become that. And I'm not there.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, when you get brave enough.

[Abby Wambach]

But I'm working to it, like, no, I know it energetically.

[Glennon Doyle]

I know. I feel it. And when you get brave enough, you're going to put a sign on your throne that says, please tell me everything you want me to know. Because I think that that's the hard part about these growing up children is that they now start to have private lives. Not only interior, but private lives with their friendships and their new partners and their new communities that they're building and forging for themselves. And I think that that feels hard because I do feel like it leaves us out and getting comfortable with the space in between their lives and our lives is what this fucking journey is. It is a trek. It feels like it's Mount Everest right now. And also there's like a part of me that just has to trust and believe that we did the very best that we could and that they will come and file their grievances when they're ready and so will we be.

[Amanda Doyle]

Amen. Amen.

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[Amanda Doyle]

It truly is the most heartbreaking paradox of life, right. That if you are lucky and if your work has come to fruition, your children will not need you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Amanda Doyle]

And what you want most in the world is for them to need you on some base level. And so you have to get to the evolution of feeling good about them not needing you and trusting that they will want you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's it.

[Amanda Doyle]

And they will choose you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's it. I was talking with my therapist the other day about that and like, if you could be brave enough to bridge the gap between the person needing you and for them to get to the place where they want you, where they choose. It's not a necessity, it's a choice. It's a, oh, I can't wait to go back to see my family. Whatever it is, that is the magic. Because think about. It's just so much more expansive. Needing somebody is constricting. Wanting somebody is expansive and open and possible.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And the sure fire way, tragically, which is the painful fire you're walking through right now. Glennon. The surefire way to make sure that your kids won't have the ability to want you is if you need them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. That is not okay.

[Amanda Doyle]

You cannot need your children. Like, you can't even right now. We get away with it. When they're little, we get away with needing them to be. Okay. We get away with needing to. We just barely though, it causes a lot of suffering for us and our kids to need them to be anything. But when you're old, the needing, that is the desperation. That is what you're trying to chase with those texts. It's the chasing of the wind in ecclesiastes. Like you're never gonna. It's when you need them, they will not want you.

[Abby Wambach]

No.

[Amanda Doyle]

Because they Can't. Because they know that's not right. They know that's not a healthy relationship for them. When you don't need them, you open up the space that they can want you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's like the name on the deed is changing. Because, look, we all think of our children as mine. Ours. And if we can start thinking about them as their own body, their own separate entity, and hand over the deed to them and have them fill in their own name with their own pen and their own signature and instincts and love, they need to know that we trust that they can go do this on their own.

[Abby Wambach]

I know. I just don't know if I can do it on my own. Like, I don't. I know that they can.

[Amanda Doyle]

Does your life have a meaningful. Does your life have. Will you without this? If they don't choose you, if they don't want you, what makes of that life? That's when I'm like, I'm gonna have to do something drastic to make my life worth living.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. That's good. I think that's right. I think it is right. I don't know what the drastic thing is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Don't have another baby.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, fuck you. No, I'd rather have purposeless existential dread for the rest, because I think that.

[Glennon Doyle]

A lot of people do that shit.

[Abby Wambach]

Totally. That is not it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, God.

[Abby Wambach]

That's just like, delaying the inevitable.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Two things that I'll end this with is that on the plus side, Laurel, lately, every time I look at one of these people that are suddenly like adult people in my house, I am flabbergasted by them. I suddenly can't even believe how beautiful they are. How it is like I am suddenly Geppetto, and they have all suddenly come to life like little Pinocchios, and they are operating in a way that I can't under. I am. My gift is flabbered. And Abby knows this. I am constantly looking at them going, oh, my God, you are so beautiful. And it's too much. Yeah, it's too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

It's actually awful. Abby's like, it is like my kid's trying to eat her Mac and cheese. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're so beautiful. It's too much.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's thirsty. It's thirsty is what it is.

[Abby Wambach]

Laurel, I don't know. I have no lesson. I'm just telling you that that has happened. I don't know what to do about it. Secondly, and lastly, I promise, coming back to that oldest one that we started with, so I was Raised on the East Coast. Okay. I moved as far as humanly possible. And while staying in this country, I think, right, so like, I mean, we.

[Glennon Doyle]

Could have gone to Hawaii, but.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, Right. So every day I look at the coast. We're so fucking lucky. We live like, I can see the ocean from our house. And I think I've told you this over and over again. Is that the mantra in my head every morning when I see it is, well, I've gone as far as I can go. And I don't know what that means. Okay. It's just what I think. My kid is settling in on the East Coast. He likes the bustle, he likes the hustle, he likes the culture, he likes the allotness. He. I feel like I don't exist in a city. Like I can't I lose my self. But I just was thinking about that so much just this morning on the way home. If that's not this generational shit, I don't know what it is. My parents raised me on the East Coast. I'm like, fuck, no. I go all as far as I can thinking I'm creating this life for my little family that's going to all stay together. Nope, back. It's just back and forth, coast to coast. And sometimes the kids just have to find themselves on the opposite coast of view. Right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And also it could look like choosing the opposite coast of you. Or it could look like I taught my kids that you could go a whole coast away and still have home.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda Doyle]

And so they got to choose that for themselves.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep. And luckily we don't live in an age where you have to travel by horse and buggy to get there. It's a five hour flight.

[Abby Wambach]

Feels like that.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a five hour flight and we have FaceTime. Like it's as if we could be living with him. We will have a humanoid robot probably in our house at some point in the next few years. And the face, we will have it programmed to be.

[Abby Wambach]

That's a great idea.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like Chase.

[Abby Wambach]

Remember when he went to college and I put. For months, I put a place setting with a framed picture of him on the plate so that it would. I know, I know. I'm not saying any of its normal talk about. It's too much people.

[Amanda Doyle]

It's like a memorial.

[Abby Wambach]

It's hard.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's hard because the kids do also. They're like, oh my God. They roll their eyes like, mom, come on. They also like secretly love it. They also like secretly love and know that there is not a person on this planet that has loved them like you from the moment they were born. They know in their bones that though mom might be a lot and oh my God, she's telling me that I'm beautiful and all this stuff right now, they know. And I want you to know and I want you to affirm yourself of this every day. That you are the most important person in all three of their lives. That you will live as the most influential person that has ever come into contact with them. They might not ever say that to you. They might. But I know it. I know it by the way, that when they call you. I know it by the way when there's a crisis and they need something, they call you. I know it by the way when they get sick, they need you. You are their person. And yes, they're going to develop more lives, bigger relationships in different ways. They know they can come to you. And that is winning an Olympic gold medal, if you ask me.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm going to be such a good grandma.

[Glennon Doyle]

You are. And also no first baby's birthday. I'm ready.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm ready.

[Glennon Doyle]

The first baby's mine.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, you guys, thank you for listening. I. I kind of feel like maybe the function of this episode was to make other people feel like they're doing okay. Like at least they're not doing it this way. It has been such a good with the bad, messy middle. I like noting and like honoring the moments where this stuff gets really hard and before it's all sorted. It's real. It's real. And we all go through at different times and in different ways. But Laurel, I am with you in the. Trying to figure out who we are next.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. And Glennon, isn't there a part of you that feels a little like, even if it's like a midgen of excitement to uncover her again?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

To be like, who is this lady in here? Who is this young woman at 20 years old who I didn't really develop and I had to become insta adult, insta mom. Who are you? I am so eager to get to know her because guess what? I'm also going through this too. I'm trying to get to know the person before soccer.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because I went from soccer to mommy.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. You had a similar.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm also like, who the fuck am I? What about y'all?

[Amanda Doyle]

Well, we're gonna need some babysitters.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, we. It. It was like, we've got two 8.

[Amanda Doyle]

Year old girls in this house trying.

[Abby Wambach]

To figure out who the fuck they are. Is that totally wrong though? Because it was both. It was arrested Development. Whether it was addiction or talent, who am I? Both created an arrested development.

[Amanda Doyle]

Also, between addiction and obsessive accomplishments, I.

[Abby Wambach]

Didn'T have any talent, so I had to go for the booze. Anyways, POD Squad, we love you so much. Let's just conjure some of that hermit energy, all right? We're on a fucking throne. We did the best we could. The throne says we've done the best we can. Okay? We love you and we'll see you back here next time if you're brave enough. Bye Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dena Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.