Your Inner Child: Is Yours a Voyager, a Defensive Driver, or a Scuba Diver?

Summary

We Can Do Hard Things

Episode: Your Inner Child: Is Yours a Voyager, a Defensive Driver, or a Scuba Diver?

Release: December 2, 2025

Hosts: Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Amanda Doyle

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Episode Overview

The Pod Squad dives deep into the concept of the “inner child”—exploring how childhood personalities, coping mechanisms, and ingrained beliefs shape us as adults. Using personal stories, listener questions, and their trademark blend of humor and vulnerability, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda examine who they were as kids, which parts of those younger selves still show up every day, and what it looks like to reparent and honor their inner children now. The theme is an exploration of play, coping, striving, and self-protection through the metaphors of voyagers, defensive drivers, and scuba divers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anxiety, Joy, and Presence

(00:00–10:15)

• The conversation opens with Abby recognizing how extreme stress has sapped her ability to “inject joy” into life, an active practice she credits with counterbalancing anxiety:
  • “I have usually been of the right amount of faculty in my own body to be able to counteract it with joy... but I haven’t had that lately.” —Abby (00:00)
• The group discusses joy as an active, even therapeutic intervention for anxiety, and the challenge of bringing joy and presence into not just leisure, but work and life’s difficult moments:
  • “I am learning and working on just bringing in moments of joy and play into my life.” —Abby (02:19)
  • Abby describes implementing this by having her family dance while doing the dishes to Nina Simone, emphasizing embodied, in-the-moment experiences (03:03).
• Glennon reframes anxiety as “the gap between my expectation of this moment or this person ... and the reality. And the gap is the anxiety.” (05:55)
• Abby reflects on the power of choosing thoughts: “If I have the power to create the anxiety, then I also have the power to create something different.” (06:24)

Notable Quote

“It is an interesting thing about how stress can just take away your personality.”
—Glennon (00:38)

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2. Listener Question: Childhood Personas and Inner Children

(10:19–28:14)

• The Pod Squad takes a listener’s question: “What were each of you like as little kids, and which part of that kid still shows up every day?”
• Amanda shares a hilarious childhood artifact—a contract she drafted at age six or seven when Glennon borrowed $7. The contract includes interest, a repayment plan, collateral, and is notarized with a dinosaur stamp. The story illustrates Amanda’s childhood persona as the “defensive driver,” always preemptively safeguarding herself.
  • “If defensive driving was a personality, that’s what I’d be.” —Amanda (17:43)
• Amanda discusses the roots of her vigilant, hyper-responsible coping:
  • “If the world isn’t, like, orderly and predictable and understandable around me, I will find a means to make it so.” (18:39)
• The group explores family systems: Amanda became the “fixer,” while Glennon was the “feeler.” Both roles, they suggest, arose from the “water the family’s swimming in”—the context, not any one person’s behavior.

Notable Quote

“If the world isn't, like, orderly and predictable and understandable around me, I will find a means to make it so… My dinosaur stamp will protect me from any foreseeable offenses.”
—Amanda (18:39)

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3. Abby’s Inner Child: The Voyager/Adventurer

(34:29–45:19)

• Abby reflects on her rambunctious, attention-seeking childhood (“I was a very obnoxious child… just wanted to be completely in all of the experience of life.” —34:39), and how her boldness, confidence, and drive for play led her to sports success.
• She shares that striving for attention and validation from her mother motivated her, and that her sense of worthiness became linked to performance rather than intrinsic being.
  • “My worthiness came from performance instead of existence.” —Glennon (42:21)
• Abby also delves into the dangers of outgrowing or repressing joyfulness in adulthood and within communal relationships, especially through parenting.
• The complexity of ambition: Abby questions whether her lifelong drive for “more”—for new experiences and adventures—is a manifestation of her true essence or a byproduct of capitalist striving. She’s currently wrestling with what “enough” means, especially in contemplating retirement.
  • “The thing that propelled me into the greatest experience of life… was this utter belief and this intuition that there was something more I could be a part of and create with and experience. And now… is what we have right now enough?” (44:00–45:19)

Notable Quote

“The reason why I was such a good soccer player is because I really did think of it for a long time as something I just got to play.”
—Abby (38:55)

“What you have, the way you have always experienced the world is adventure… you equate the striving or the reaching towards whatever’s next as life itself. So if you stop that and just sit in the enoughness, that is what people do before they die.”
—Glennon (46:07)

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4. Glennon’s Inner Child: The Idealist and Poet (Scuba Diver)

(54:01–63:30)

• Glennon admits she doesn't have a clear image of her childhood self, so she reads a poem she wrote in third grade titled “Hope,” which addresses global peace:
  • “A disagreement is two different ways of thinking… An agreement is a compromise. Isn’t peace the answer?” —Glennon (56:17)
• She shares her childhood belief that her words could change the world—a blend of sweetness, idealism, and a little grandiosity.
• The group analyzes children’s coping mechanisms and personalities, with Amanda observing about herself: “All the problems in the world result from my failure to communicate.” (63:30)
• Glennon reflects on her urge to express and connect, and the double-edged sword of believing she’s responsible for fixing everything through communication.

Notable Quote

“The only thing that I remember about this poem is a feeling in my body … this is gonna do it… this is what’s gonna do it [bring peace to the world].”
—Glennon (57:17)

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5. Reparenting, Integration, and Moving Forward

(64:30–67:24)

• The Pod Squad wraps up by reflecting on how to honor, reparent, and integrate their inner child as adults:
  • Abby: “I’m letting joy lead my life right now. And play.” (65:27)
  • Amanda wants to honor her energy and protectiveness, but heal her nervous system and “drive less defensively”—to discern actual danger from unnecessary hypervigilance (66:41).
  • Glennon seeks to allow self-expression to exist for its own sake, rather than as an assignment to “fix everything.”

Notable Quotes

“My goal in life these days is to heal my nervous system so that I know what is actual danger and what is actually just life.”
—Amanda (66:41)

“Having the goal of expression just be expression, and not thinking that it's some, like, divine job to fix everything… Something about that.”
—Glennon (66:44)

The episode ends with the suggestion that listeners keep a childhood picture nearby—a simple reminder to nurture and be gentle with their inner child.

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00–09:21: Joy as a counter to stress and anxiety; balancing presence and future worries.
• 10:19–28:14: Amanda’s childhood contract story and the “defensive driver” personality.
• 34:29–45:19: Abby’s bold inner child, struggle with worthiness, and the complexity of ambition.
• 54:01–63:30: Glennon’s third-grade “global peace” poem and the “scuba diver” search for meaning.
• 64:30–67:24: Final reflections on reparenting the inner child and integrating their strengths.

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Memorable Moments

• Amanda’s detailed childhood contract, including a notarization with a dinosaur stamp—“My dinosaur stamp will protect me from any foreseeable offenses.” (18:39)
• Abby’s story of the obnoxious, confident child—jumping on backs and messing up perms to get attention (36:25).
• The reading of Glennon's poem and her earnest conviction it might end world conflict (56:17–57:49).
• The hosts’ honest questioning of what motivates adult striving, adventure, and what it means to define “enough” (45:19–49:52).
• The concept that our core coping responses—be they voyaging, defensive driving, or scuba diving—are rooted in our efforts to manage uncertainty, create safety, and keep our spirits alight.

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is lively, self-deprecating, and earnest, with the Pod Squad laughing at their childhood selves, gently teasing one another, but always returning to deep compassion for the inner child. The conversation moves fluidly between specific, personal anecdotes and broader reflections, blending humor, psychological insight, and practical wisdom.

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Final Takeaway

The path to wholeness includes recognizing, honoring, and integrating our inner child—whether voyager, defensive driver, or scuba diver. The practice isn’t just child’s play; it’s the heart of doing hard things and braving the everyday with joy, gentleness, and self-acceptance.

Transcript

[Abby Wambach]

Here's what's interesting. It's how I've kind of lived the last four or five years of my life where when there's any perception of stress, I have usually been of the right amount of faculty in my own body to be able to counteract it with joy. But I've been so stressed over the last six months that I haven't had myself to counteract any of the perception of anxiety or stress with any joy. And so I have been actively making our life worse because I'm not injecting what joy we need in the world.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're right. That was a really good mission statement. And I, I completely hear you. And it is an interesting thing about how stress can just take away your personality.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it for me too, because I'm like a presence person. I'm not an anxiety person. I don't fucking believe in it. I mean, I believe your experience with it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I don't know how I got brought into this. We were just talking about anxiety.

[Amanda]

But wait, was Abby saying that like the anxiety used to be all outside of you so you could bring your life force to counteract it, but now you have anxiety in you so you can't.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Like there would be anxiousness in the ether out here. And then I'm like, I know what to do with this anxiety. I'm going to do some fun joy thing and then I can counteract it. And it, so it like, it balances it out. Once the anxiety within me has started to rise, I have been unaware and unable to do anything joy wise. So this is part of my therapy right now that I am injecting joy into any moment that I can that feels anxious or stressful or too much or overwhelming.

[Amanda]

That's very good.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm sorry that I couldn't step into that balance and be the joy injector that you needed.

[Abby Wambach]

That's not your role.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, I'm not the choice.

[Abby Wambach]

No, that's not your role. That's my role.

[Amanda]

But it's interesting you might also want to talk to your therapist about your feeling. Like your role is to perceive anxiety around you and fix it for your whole life until this point.

[Abby Wambach]

That's step one and that's like varsity level probably.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

And I think that we're just at jv because look, the problem is, is not Glennon's anxiety or my anxiety or the world's anxiety. It's how I am interacting with anxiety within me. So what I am understanding now is that I actually don't have anxiety in me. When I am experiencing joy and play. So I am learning and working on just bringing in moments of joy and play into my life. And then I actually don't experience anxiety. I can see it. I can see that it's happening, but I'm like, oh, that's not happening in here. I'm going to do something joyful.

[Amanda]

I'm going to like a band Aid. It's like a cure.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. For me. And I'm not saying this is going to be a cure for everybody, but right now it's helping. I'm playing music all the time and I'm dancing. We had a dance, we did dishes. Chase played an incredible song. Nina Simone put it on. And I said, okay, you guys, we all have to do our own interpretive dance for the entirety of this song.

[Glennon Doyle]

And the entirety of the dishes that.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, we did.

[Glennon Doyle]

We had to dance through the dishes. And when anyone would stop, Abby would call it out. So it was important to continue the dancing for the whole dishes.

[Abby Wambach]

Those were the rules.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you have any ideas, babe, about how to.

[Amanda]

I love how you haven't even started the podcast.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

No, no.

[Amanda]

But this is the good result about a technical stress that happened because of a technical difficulty 30 seconds ago. And now we're just talking as if it's the podcast. But we haven't. We should welcome the people into the conversation.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, they know they're welcome. They know they're here. They're just here with. They know. They know they're just part of the convo and they're with us always. They don't need to be formally welcomed. Do you have any idea yet how to deal with the anxiety that comes when work things are related? Because I understand the idea of, okay, when I turn towards play and rest, I don't have anxiety. But what's the answer to then also doing hard things?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, while dealing with anxiety for me, and I can only speak for me, but for me, it's putting a. A future expectation or a future expectation of experience on something that has yet to exist. And that is why bringing joy into the complete present moment makes my body remember, oh, the future is not a thing. The present is the thing. And my anxiety is based on a future outcome or a future plan or a future work thing or a future idea of the way I want things to go. And that's a non reality right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right. So you're not even talking about joy and presence being separate from work, like stopping this to surf would obviously be. But you're talking about bringing the Joy that you want all the time into every work moment.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, well, because I'm. It's. It's also a choice. I understand that when anxiety comes up, there's not a lot we think we can do about it. But what is preceding the moment of anxiousness? What is, for me, what is preceding the moment of overwhelm? And it's often a thought.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's something. It's a thought that this isn't going the way it's supposed to go, which is what you're talking about with future worry. It is a moment of. There's a gap between my expectation of this moment or this person or this thing that is different from the reality. And the gap is the anxiety.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

So if you let. Okay, so it's the theme of this entire podcast for the last five years, which we started with that quote of the thing that screws us up the most is the picture in our head of how it's supposed to be.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And if you have the power. This is what I've been trying to talk to Emma about in terms of mentally preparing for games. If you have the power to create an anxiety with your head, with your. With your thoughts. And I understand that there's some biological stuff that this is not applying to. But for me, and the way that I've been experiencing anxiety and overwhelm in my life recently, I have been doing it to myself. So if I have the power to create the anxiety, then I also have the other power to not to create something different, which is possibility and hope and motivation and inspiration. So I'm bringing on board my national team experience, where it was hard to get fired up, to go to train every single day. And so you had to mentally create little things that you were excited about, that you were going to experience joy. And. And for me, it was like laughing with my teammates. It was like telling a funny joke. It was like making fun of our coach because they've got, you know, something in their teeth. And that was like, a little funny thing that, like, these are the moments I just don't want to miss my life, and I don't want to miss being able to inject the joy wherever I can. And to be clear, my life is totally different than it was last Friday since I've started doing this completely, where I'm just like, I'm going to throw joy at everything. I'm going to throw play and fun at every little bit of my life, even if it feels, like, hard, like, okay, fine, I can do this. So I feel passionate about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're the best. And I love that you keep saying the word inject because that is how I experience it. Like, it's like when you were little and they used to hold you down and inject vaccines and they would be like, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you and it's just going to hurt for a second. Like, that is how sometimes when my anxiety is high, I feel the joy as a hold down injection that does in fact make me feel better, but it's against my will.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, right.

[Amanda]

That's how I feel every time I leave the house.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's like I know that I'll feel better after I do this thing, but God damn it, you're gonna go do it. It's not like a looking forward, it's like a okay, fine. I'll do the thing that keeps me human, even though I'd rather just stay unhuman.

[Glennon Doyle]

Totally. Well, it's a lot of effort to maintain all your anxiety. Like you can't be distracted from it because you are make believe, holding the whole world together. It's a big ass job that no one gave you that you volunteer for and that doesn't work.

[Amanda]

But it's also a lot of effort to. To do the things that you need to do to enliven yourself, which is when you're feeling like you're already so overwhelmed. Like I'm here, exhausted, just holding all this anxiety. I can't add a different job, which is unanxiety myself.

[Glennon Doyle]

I just saw this meme you guys, that I kept and now I look at every day because it makes me so happy and it says 90% of what you worry about doesn't come true. See, worrying works.

[Amanda]

That's how I feel.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did we turn it to mean? So don't worry, it's working, you guys. Barely anything we worry about happens. That 10% you probably forgot.

[Amanda]

You probably didn't worry about that enough.

[Glennon Doyle]

Somebody probably injected you with joy and you dropped the ball in that 10%.

[Amanda]

That's so good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, anyway.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. What are we talking about today, y'? All?

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, we have a precious question from one of the POD squad letters that I thought it might be fun to spiral around and ask you guys about. We've had a couple conversations about this recently, adorably. And the question is this. Abby, Amanda Glennon, what were each of you like as little kids and which part of that kid still shows up every day? So I thought it would be fun to start with Amanda on this one.

[Abby Wambach]

Great.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda]

I brought a show and tell for. For. To answer this question of what I was like as a kid because I thought it illustrative, so I'm gonna show it. I would like to draw your attention for those listening.

[Glennon Doyle]

I.

[Amanda]

Don't worry, you're not gonna miss a thing. I'm going to like Abby not missing her life. We're not going to let you miss a thing. I'm going to tell you everything about what I'm holding. Okay? This my r. Sorry. Our mother recently presented to me. And it is when I was 6 or 7, apparently created this contract. Okay? So this, Glennon, was a contract that I drafted at six or seven with you. And what I. I'm going to read it. And what I have surmised from this is that you came to me asking to borrow $7.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay?

[Amanda]

Okay. So at the top it says loans, loan, $7.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay?

[Amanda]

This is all written in red magic marker on yellow lined paper.

[Glennon Doyle]

And judging by your handwriting, how old do you think you.

[Amanda]

Well, my handwriting is still this shitty, but based on your handwriting, I think that I like six or seven.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Which remain you like nine or ten, right?

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Okay.

[Amanda]

Loan $7 for t shirt. Specified for T shirt. I mean, first of all, that's a load of shit because I don't think you could get a t shirt for $7.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, that's why you put it in quotes, right? T shirt in quotes. That just shows you didn't believe me.

[Amanda]

She was getting a pack of cigarettes.

[Abby Wambach]

But she.

[Amanda]

She has reported for the official document.

[Glennon Doyle]

That she's getting T shirt.

[Amanda]

Okay. The interest, which is misspelled, is 70 cents.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay?

[Amanda]

I'm going to charge you 10% interest on this T shirt amount. Your client, Glennon Doyle. Okay? Then there's a notation that says more each week. Not paid. 30 cents.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did you even know about interest? Or more each week. Not paid. Like what?

[Amanda]

Unclear to me. Unclear. Apparently I have required some kind of assurance in the form of collateral, which I have written down. Job, babysitter. That's what you're going to do to get the money to repay me. Okay, date, Monday, 5th of August. We don't have a year.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

No.

[Amanda]

Monday, 5th of August. Here.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay.

[Amanda]

The memo I've written.

[Glennon Doyle]

Memo.

[Amanda]

$7 is the loan for a quote. T shirt for Glenn, which. Which is spelled W H I, T, C H. I've always been a bad speller.

[Glennon Doyle]

Always thought I was a witch. Yes.

[Amanda]

Always had bad handwriting.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Which.

[Amanda]

Pay it back by babysitting. Each week. Not paid. I will raise the price $0.30, which narrows out to $0.05 a day. It's important to know that it narrows out to five.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Okay. Over it says. Then we flip it over. Loaner. Okay. I have my signature there. Signer. This is your signature. Apparently I have some notes on this contract. Apparently I have also added myself as a cosigner to the loan, which inadvertently makes me liable on the same seven dollar total plus interest, which narrowed out at five cents a day is now quite high. But you owe myself a line.

[Glennon Doyle]

But you're my backer. Yeah, you're my.

[Amanda]

I have added myself as a co. Signer.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda]

I didn't yet understand the nuance of the law. Okay, Memo for signatures. Okay. I have allowed you a memorandum section where you say doesn't have to be a T shirt that I spend the money on.

[Glennon Doyle]

It was cigarettes. It was.

[Amanda]

Whatever it was for. You knew good and well that you didn't want to be on the hook for signing this document for a T shirt when you sure as shit we're not spending the money on that. Okay, then I would like to draw your attention to. I have it notarized with a dinosaur stamp.

[Glennon Doyle]

Unbelievable.

[Abby Wambach]

How did you know how to do all this? Like there was no Internet at this point.

[Amanda]

Well, I'll tell you what I've always known how to do, Abby, is protect myself from me.

[Abby Wambach]

But like, did you like, did you like, look like. Did you ask your parents, like, how does a contract work?

[Glennon Doyle]

No, my parents would never know that.

[Amanda]

No, I don't know, but it's absolutely hilarious and I love it. And also a little sad.

[Glennon Doyle]

Which narrows out to.

[Amanda]

Which narrows out to 5 cents a day, flat rate, 70% more each week, not paid 30%.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, I just want the pod squad to imagine the scenario where I just walk into my sister's room and ask her for $7. And basically her little 6 year old self is like, this bitch is not getting away with this again.

[Amanda]

Fool me 15 times.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so she sits down at her little desk in her little room and drafts up a contract. Which, by the way, maybe we can understand that you understand interest at 6 to 7. What I cannot abide by is that you understood that you had to figure out how I was going to employ myself to pay the money back. How did you know that that's like, like bank loan level.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, and like notarizing with a dinosaur stamp. Like what the fuck being real.

[Amanda]

Well, I don't. I don't know. I don't remember. I can only imagine that maybe you had borrowed money from me. A couple times, perhaps. And not paid me back, maybe. I don't know. But I actually don't even remember. I don't know if that was true. Maybe I just was like, well, this is what a responsible steward of her funds will do.

[Glennon Doyle]

Unreal.

[Amanda]

But I do think that it's interesting because I think. I think that I've kind. That is kind of. It's cute and funny and clearly I was, like, meant to be a lawyer. But also I think it demonstrates a little bit, which is that I was thinking this morning about it. I'm like, what does that say about me? And I think it's like, if defensive driving was a personality, that's what I'd be like.

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good.

[Amanda]

It's not enough to drive safely and think you're going to get there safe. You need to anticipate that everyone else is going to be swerving in front of you and making crazy turns and slippery conditions and just be prepared for everything that might happen because everything is not to be trusted, and we have to be prepared to not get screwed.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. And where do you think in your wildest imagination? Who knows These questions. Who knows? Okay, no one's pathologizing anyone here.

[Abby Wambach]

Sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

But, like, where. You know, like, where do you.

[Abby Wambach]

Where does this come from?

[Glennon Doyle]

Where do you think that came from? You just born that way. Like, were you born with a pen and a ledger? Like, or was this a learned thing? How does one become this?

[Amanda]

I don't know.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

I think there was probably.

[Amanda]

A lot of things that I was like, this seems a little. This seems a little much. And this seems like I have to be ready for what might happen. And it seems like I should take on the responsibility of making sure that I can make myself safe, make myself make the world orderly. That, like, if I. If the world isn't, like, orderly and predictable and understandable around me, I will find a means to make it so and so. That feels like kind of a tool of that. Like, that's. What. If I was pathologizing myself, I would say, like, the kid who's 7 and is just sure she's gonna get screwed and that something's gonna go wrong is gonna not want to live that way and be like, well, the law will protect me. My dinosaur stamp will protect me from any. Any foreseeable offenses against me. So sweet. So maybe. I mean, there's good parts about that, too. That's like, you can find. You can live in uncertainty and be like, the world is uncertain and I have no control. So what am I gonna do. Or you can be like, what are the structures around that can make it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Better.

[Amanda]

And more predictable? But I think I've maybe taken that a little extreme in my life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, don't we all? But it also makes me feel like I've always thought it was weird that we only like people who go more towards arty things or even adaptive behaviors like alcohol or addiction or whatever are always considered the sensitive people.

[Abby Wambach]

They.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then people who go towards more an analytic thing or something. Don't get that because I actually think of that as a compliment. Like, if you're sensitive, that means you're. You're taking things in. And I think it's often suggested that people go. Who go towards a more analytical thing aren't. Are missing that. But actually it's just an exact. It's just another way of sorting the world. Or if you feel and you're in a boundaryless place of creating boundaries, that's just. Was your, your art to. To create a scaffolding, to protect yourself a little bit?

[Amanda]

Yeah. They're both coping mechanisms. You're like, if I can't cope with whatever reality is, I'm either going to exit this reality, which is part of, you know, what those addictions things are like. I'm going to go over here, I'm going to numb out of this reality. But it takes an equal amount of sensitivity to be like, this reality isn't working. What. What other like realities can I bring to make this more orderly and make more sense? And I think, I think that's. I think that's true. And I think sometimes in family systems there are like, feelers and fixers. And this would actually have been right around the time that, like, we discovered your eating disorders. And I think I kind of like, typecast myself very early as like, you're not a feeler, you're a fixer. You're like a. See what you can do about the problems and address them, but you're not like a feeler of the problems.

[Abby Wambach]

Sister, I have a question. So as like a younger, younger sibling. I understand, I understand, like surveying the scene of the family system and your sister maybe gets sick or becomes the quote, unquote identified patient in your family system. Did. Do you think that you just decided to be the fixer, bypassing any ability to be a feeler? Do you think it was a conscious choice? You were like, well, I'm not going to go down that road. I'm going to just go down this road. And I guess the question is, is, do you know What I'm trying to ask here.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Kind of like, does it rob you of something and did you rob it of yourself, or was it forced to do it?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So it feels like there was like.

[Amanda]

Or is it like chicken or egg?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because it happens both ways. And then the feeler's like, well, I'm not a fixer. I can't do that shit. And then you abandon half your personality. So I think it's a beautiful question, like, did taking on the fixer ness, whether it was chosen or not, force you to abandon the feeler self?

[Amanda]

I think it's probably very true that I abandoned the Feel herself. And that has, like, been a thread through the whole. So many of our conversations. And even this season of the. Like, do you have that? Do you not have that? Everybody has that. Where. Where is it? You know, like, I think I did. I did kind of abandoned that part early, so it's, like, incredibly underdeveloped. But I don't know whether it's. And I wouldn't necessarily say that it is. Like, I want to be very careful not to say that it is Glennon getting sick that made me abandon that. I think Glennon got sick for the same reasons that I abandoned that. In other words.

[Abby Wambach]

Correct.

[Amanda]

That's there.

[Abby Wambach]

That's really good.

[Amanda]

Wasn't. There wasn't a capacity. Like, there was not room for two feelers.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Amanda]

There wasn't.

[Glennon Doyle]

Or one.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Right.

[Amanda]

So, like, clearly. Clearly it's like, read a room. This isn't even going well.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's sure as shit not gonna work to have two people like that. And it's so. So I think it's. I think it's like, all part of the same bag in a way, but I don't think that I consciously did that. I think that, like, I became kind of a foil, and then it was like. Then I just kept going.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep.

[Glennon Doyle]

That. It's a very generous reframe, though, because sometimes, like, it's present family systems are presented as, like, even if it's accidental as well. One person's a sick person, and then everybody reacts to that person, one that kid, and creates their. But what I hear you saying is there's something in the water and the same thing in the water that creates the sick one, creates the fixer. But the origin is the water the family's swimming in. It's not a chain reaction of one becomes one and then everybody else falls into line. The same water that made me say, I'm out of here. I protect myself by disappearing through addiction is the same water. That said, I'll protect myself through legal means. Right.

[Amanda]

And not for nothing. Like, if. If that had. If your solution had been effective.

[Abby Wambach]

If.

[Amanda]

In other words, if your cry for help by disappearing had been effective in relocating you and being like, oh, here's what is needed. We can do this. Then I would have been like, oh, there is. There is maybe room.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yep.

[Amanda]

For a whole person. But, like, I think both of those things together play in, you know?

[Glennon Doyle]

Cool. Babe, are you. Is there anything else you want to say in. In honor of your little kid self before we move on to Abby, or did you want to write something up about the time each of us is taking and make sure we're allotting it correctly? I'm.

[Amanda]

I'm charging interest if you go over your time, which even narrows out to you owe me a ton of money.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm trying. This is not important, but my brain's trying to figure out what words you meant which averages out to. Yeah, you meant which averages out to okay. Which narrows.

[Amanda]

Narrows out too.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Amanda]

And I spelled which three different ways.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. You gotta try it every way because you know you'll get it right once. You're just trying to use formal language, too, which is so cute. And that just reminds me of my wife, who yesterday did say to me that gave me advice that if I did a certain thing, it would behoove me. It would behoove me if I did this thing. And if I tried it, then maybe things would go more swimmingly. And I just thought, from which. From whence are you? Who says this will behoove you in casual conversation and it will go swimmingly? It's just amazing. My Victorian wife.

[Amanda]

I would like to know what the opposite of behoove is. I would like to start using that in sentences. It will not behoove you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It will unhoove you.

[Amanda]

It will de hoove you.

[Glennon Doyle]

It will de hoove you. I love that. And now it's time to thank the.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Companies who allow you to listen to. We can do hard things for free.

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[Amanda]

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[Glennon Doyle]

As you all know by now, I.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

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[Glennon Doyle]

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This show started as a simple idea, a gathering place for truth telling and community, and now it's the podcast you're listening to. Starting a business begins the same way, with a dream, but too often we let fear shut it down. Shopify helps you flip those questions into confidence, turning what ifs into why nots. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide and accounts for nearly 10% of all U.S. e commerce. You can pick from hundreds of gorgeous, ready to use store templates, lean on AI tools that help you write product descriptions and polish your photos, and even send out email and social campaigns that make you look like you've got a whole marketing department behind you. We use Shopify to run our we can do hard things merch during the book tour and because the platform made everything so simple and streamlined, we were able to give 100% of the proceeds to non profits without worrying about logistics. Turn those dreams into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.comhardthings go to shopify.comhardthings shopify.com hardthings 20th Century.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Mary Abigail what do you want to tell us about what you were like as a little kid and what parts still show up today? Well, that's what the pod squatter wants to know.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I've been doing quite a bit of parts work with my therapist and oftentimes There's a lot of parts that I have inside of me that are very young. And I think that I was a very obnoxious child. Oh, my. My high school basketball and soccer coach just got inducted to our high school hall of fame. And I, because of you. Well, because she was great and won a lot of things. And I was talking to her and she was telling me about all the people that came and helped get her inducted. And, and one of the stories was one of the women came up to her and said, God, that Abby Wambach, she was so annoying as a kid. Like she was so loud. And I. They were joking. It wasn't.

[Glennon Doyle]

But that's still.

[Abby Wambach]

They were. But I think that I was like. I think I was like, I was a kid who just wanted to be completely in all of the experience of life. And so I was louder than most kids were. I was more confident than most kids were. And I don't say that to make you guys feel like you need to protect me. You can kind of, you can put your protector parts down. Okay, real quick.

[Amanda]

I'm super pissed. I haven't listened to anything since you said that. That walked up there and said that Abby was obnoxious.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, she didn't say it on stage. She was just. They were talking about it with each other. Like, isn't it so interesting that she's become who she's become in the world? But she was kind of like, you know, the loud, you know, would jump on your back and like mess your hair up and back in like the 80s, hair was a thing for girls.

[Glennon Doyle]

That is obnoxious hairspray, you know, and.

[Abby Wambach]

I would like jump on my sister's friends backs and I would mess up their perms and their big claw bangs.

[Amanda]

Abby, did you tell them that well behaved women rarely make history? Did you tell them?

[Abby Wambach]

And so I think that like, I've been, I've been fondly thinking of my younger self because she had a knowing that was not yet proven by life experience yet, but like a deep belief. And I really like that kid. And so I think one of the things that I come into contact with now in my adulthood is I have kind of pushed aside the obnoxious parts of myself, of my childlike self for fear of rejection or for, for fear of conflict or tumult.

[Amanda]

Because it behooves you.

[Abby Wambach]

In the, in my family dynamic, in my friends dynamic, in my world dynamic, I have, I've kind of cast aside my child self for belonging. And one of the biggest, one of the greatest stories of my relationship life is that I am too much, that eventually my partner will see that I am this obnoxious thing that they need to slowly and methodically and lovingly, but methodically make me more of a. An adult version of the childlike self. And I am in complete and utter revolt on that right now. In my therapy, I realize that I am in communion with and belonging with other people and in relation with my family and my wife. And I think that that's really important, that I do make compromise and I'm not obnoxious and loud all the time because we're living communally, and I think that that's important. But I think that there are parts to my childlike self that I miss that I don't want to push aside. Like, and this is not the greatest example, but I have had such an extraordinary time playing. And the reason why I was such a good soccer player is because I really did think of it for a long time as something I just got to play. It wasn't like, yes, it was hard, but there were so, like, the times when I was absolutely at my best on the field was when I just felt like, oh, my gosh, like, I have the. I'm the luckiest person. I have this insanely awesome job. I get to travel the world. This is before I got tired and old and things started to hurt more, where it became less fun and less playful, became more work and hard. But I want to get back to the cultivating because it's a mindset for me. Like, I'm trying to cultivate this mindset of childlike awe and openness and play and fun. And I'm not going to fall victim to the world or capitalism or business or parenting. Like, my God, parenting is the number one killer of play. What it is because. Because all you're doing is you're obsessing and you're responsible for not letting harm come to these children. And so it takes up so much of your spirit and your mind, and you have to, like, there's something that happens that, like, you. You have to pretend being an. I have to feel sometimes I feel like I have to pretend being an adult a lot.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Totally.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's all I feel. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

That I'm like, I know what I've. I know what's going on here. And we've. I've got this. I've got you guys.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And I don't.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't got you.

[Abby Wambach]

I don't got nothing.

[Amanda]

Bad news. I don't got you.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm Just like a child who is kind of obnoxious and says weird sometimes. And I don't know why, but, like, sometimes people think it's funny, sometimes people think it's obnoxious, sometimes people are offended by it. So, anyway, this is a long.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sometimes all three in one.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Did I do it just then?

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. I also know that sometimes we do have to adapt in our childlike ways so that they don't become maladaptive. And so one of the things I really want to talk about is this idea of the wound that happened in me when I was a child where I didn't think that I was getting enough quality attention from the people that I really wanted it from, which was my mom and my dad. I should just say my mother, because I didn't actually. I never felt a wound for my dad not noticing. I really wanted my mother's attention. When you have seven people that you are tending to, as my mother did, she only had space for me for a little bit of time. Right. And she did her best. I really do believe that she did her best. But for this spirit, it wasn't necessary. It wasn't enough. And so then I started using as a coping mechanism, sports to get the undivided attention that I was seeking, which then became a maladaptive practice of actually not feeling worthy enough. Right. Like, is any of this making sense?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. Your performance, your worthiness came from performance instead of existence.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Amanda]

It's also making sense of jumping on people's back and stealing their claw clips if you're not getting enough attention at all.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it really does.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's a direct line, really.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And so, I don't know. I. I really love that little kid because that little kid had to have these big dreams. And I really. I thought a lot about trying to understand how a person can, in their minds, believe deeply that they could win an Olympic gold medal without women's soccer even being in the Olympics yet. Like, I think about that a lot.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, because you did tell them about that. You used to write.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I think I might have talked about this on the pod squad before, but. On the pod before. But I used to write in a journal in eighth grade prior to women's soccer being in the Summer Olympics. My name is Abby Wambach, and I will win an Olympic gold medal for women's soccer.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

You know what that is? That's obnoxious.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Like, the level of obnoxious you have to be to believe that you're going to win a gold medal in something that doesn't exist is the same thing. Like, it's the blessing and the curse.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're jumping on life and you're just messing up its hair. You're just, like, holding on for dear life.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. And it's obnoxious and also sweet in a good way.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's what she means.

[Amanda]

Yeah. No, I'm saying the same. Same life force is in both things.

[Abby Wambach]

I've always been the kind of person that knew there was more out there for me to experience and explore. I'm an experiential human. And when I was a kid, I think a lot of my anxiety, like, a lot of my frustration was that I felt like there was so much more that I just. It was like, just beyond my vision, you know? And so I had to curate a lot of this inside of myself, and I had to, like, dream up a lot of this. And now how this has become a little bit maladaptive for me is that we, Glennon, you and I, are trying to define and determine what enough is. And so the thing that propelled me into the greatest experience of life I could envision was this utter belief and this intuition that there was something more I could be a part of and create with and experience. And now there's. The conversation that we're having is like, is what we have right now enough, rather than going out and trying to express more, dream, more experience into the world? And I think that's where I struggle. That's where I'm struggling right now.

[Glennon Doyle]

That makes such good sense in, like.

[Abby Wambach]

The maladaptive approach to this worthiness, childlike wonder, awe, play, bringing it into adulthood. But does. Does shutting down? Are the dreams that I have just me participating more in capitalism and being like, on the treadmill of keeping up with the Joneses? Or is it a part of my constitution and my spirit around what I know makes me the happiest around exploring the world and being in the most different and interesting experiences that this body can be in. I don't know. That's all I'm going to say.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, it's really making sense of. I don't think I mentioned this before, but when we were having that conversation about is it possible that we just. Everything we've ever dreamed of and need and want is already here and we don't have to strive for anything else? And what if the dream of the next thing is ruining is a false thing? Like, is the pursuit of happiness being the problem as opposed to just being happy, The American dream being the problem as opposed to looking at reality and saying, this is beautiful. This is good enough.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I. As we were talking about that, Abby looked at me and said, I feel like you're talking about end of life stuff. And I've. And I just didn't even know what she meant. And then I. But I've been thinking about that so much, and I think it's so fascinating because the way I was thinking about it was like, oh, she equates the striving or the reaching towards whatever's next as life itself. So if you stop that and just sit in the enoughness, then that is what people do before they die.

[Amanda]

That's giving up.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's giving up. Right. And so that's how I was thinking about why she said that. But I think also what you're saying is it has to do with your identity. Like, what you have, the way you have always experienced the world is adventure. So you're. You're hearing me say, what if we don't adventure anymore? Not. Okay, got it.

[Amanda]

The way something was introduced to you, if it was like a weapon against you or an invitation for you, and it sounds like, for you, the, like, loud, obnoxious girl who was dreaming of things that didn't exist and was being told subtly or overtly, what you have is, enough.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just stop.

[Amanda]

Just. It's fine. Be grateful.

[Glennon Doyle]

Stop.

[Amanda]

It's enough. It was being used as, like, a weapon to tamp you down and to, like, contain you. And of course, then when someone tells you, isn't this enough? You're gonna receive it within that same framework, which is, well, you're just asking me to stop expanding and to stop dreaming and to stop, you know, finding who I am. And so that makes total sense because it's the original framework is how. Of course you're gonna have to deal with that before you get to the other side.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. That's a good way of putting it, too. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Interesting.

[Abby Wambach]

It's kind of scary to me. Like. Like, when you said that, I just. I felt like. I felt. Honestly, I felt like, oh, this is how we end it. This is how we go. I know that sounds insane.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't think it does. But, like, I don't think it does.

[Abby Wambach]

And I also completely understand, like, the. The. The experiment and the thought experiment of, like, is it my life force energy, or is it a proxy to the capitalistic treadmill?

[Glennon Doyle]

Right?

[Abby Wambach]

Like, what is it? Like, what is the. Where is it coming from? Is this the essence of me in my. My. In the way that I experience the world in my Life and the vision of my life, or is it the conditions that I've been a part of that are making me chase something more for, like, relevance and.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, there's two different ways, though. Like, for example, if you're on a boat, there is the way of looking at adventure that is like, this boat that we're on needs to go somewhere else, needs to voyage somewhere else, right? That. That there's a new destination where joy will be, there's a new place, but there's also the kind of adventure that's like, I'm gonna scuba dive. Like, I'm gonna jump off this boat and I'm gonna see what's in the sea right below me. So I guess what I wonder is, is there a way of melding the two? Like, is there a way of using your adventure spirit, your beautiful childlike passion to mine every moment for as much joy as possible, and instead of leading the boat somewhere else for that adventure, scuba diving into what we have right now and, like, mining everything where we live and our relationship and our, like, the. The everything around us, diving deeper into that. Because what I think is when you move the boat over and over again as your only form of adventure, you miss 90% of the joy that was in the place you just were.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I get that for sure. And that's the struggle. I feel, like, the tension that I'm experiencing right now in thinking about a retirement and how do. How do I want to feel in that retirement? And I don't know. I just. I. The way I'm just trying to reorganize my mind around whether or not I can achieve the feeling that I'm thinking about and hoping to experience in my retirement in the current. The exact current place that we are right now. I don't know if there needs to be some sort of movement of the boat or not. I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I don't know is a great answer.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

And now it's time for our ads.

[Abby Wambach]

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[Glennon Doyle]

Hi, Pod Squad.

[Abby Wambach]

We would love to invite you over to check out our new show. Welcome to the party. It's really about the sports. For those of you who might not be sports focused or centric, but it's also about celebrating and uplifting the stories around athletes and leaders across soccer, basketball, hockey, softball, the Olympics, you name it. It is our mission to bring the joy and love of sport and these women to all of you. If you don't know all of them, it's okay because we'll explain it to you. So check us out on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. We have new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. You will not be disappointed. Thank you, Pod Squad. And one of these days, we're going to do the sports episode with Glennon, so come find us. Okay, Glennon, you're up.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, I would just want to say that I don't have as clear a viewpoint as either of you do truly about this situation. I do not have a good.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Clear.

[Glennon Doyle]

Perspective of what I was like as a kid at all in any way. So I did. I did my vest. I actually texted mom last night because she had, a couple months ago, texted me a poem that she found that I wrote, I think in third grade. And then I couldn't find it. So I texted her last night. I said, can you find that poem? And then she sent it. And then I just wanted to tell you that she said, I asked Alice where it was and she found it in five minutes. So I don't really understand that, like, why she asked her granddaughter, did Alice organize why her granddaughter knew where the poem was. Do you know how that happened?

[Amanda]

Yeah, they were over last night and apparently my mom said she had texted it to you sometime over the last several years.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda]

She was going back and looking at several years of photographs and having as little luck as you would imagine she'd have with that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Amanda]

And she. And Alice said, what are you doing? And she said, I'm looking for this poem that. And then Alice asked what it was about. So apparently there were some search terms like Reagan and war and things such as this that it took a couple of search terms. But then Alice found it, and then Tisha thought that she was a genius.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, she is a genius. She is a genius.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you guys ever wonder what that's going to be like for us in, like, 30 years?

[Amanda]

It already is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I'm like, how do I turn the flashlight on on the phone without it?

[Glennon Doyle]

Like, it's already, like my flashlight.

[Amanda]

And I also turn it off and then turn it back on just to get to the same screen where I always know the flashlight is.

[Glennon Doyle]

And same with the camera. I can never find my camera, so I miss every moment. And the whole family has taken 10 pictures before I get out my camera. Okay. So I have no idea if this poem reflects who I was as a child, but this is what we have to work with. Okay.

[Amanda]

Okay, we'll analyze it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. This is the poem that I wrote in third grade. It's called Hope. Just get ready, Pod Squad. Libya, Russia, America, Gaddafi, Gorbachev, Reagan. Three different places, three different people. Is war the answer? What is war? Hatred, tears and broken hearts. Peace, a smile, handshake, Happiness and trust. A disagreement is two different ways of thinking.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh.

[Glennon Doyle]

An agreement is a compromise.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God.

[Glennon Doyle]

Isn't peace the answer?

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Question mark.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, what I want to say about this poem is a couple things. The only thing that I remember about this poem is a feeling in my body. Okay. I can actually identify a feeling in my body after having written this poem. And the feeling in my body was. Could be translated as, this is gonna do it.

[Amanda]

I gotta get this to Gorbachev.

[Glennon Doyle]

Hundred percent. I typed this last word and thought, this is what's gonna do it.

[Amanda]

That wasn't even that hard.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. Like, the problem is probably that Gaddafi, Gorbachev, and Reagan just don't know that a disagreement is two different ways of thinking. And so. And once they see this, the possibilities that we could have sadness or we, on the other hand, we could have smiles and a handshake. Like when I tell you that I could imagine that somehow this poem that I wrote in Ms. Wilson's class is in Cherry Run in Burke, Virginia, was going to find its way to Gaddafi, Gorbachev, and Reagan, and that they were going to probably be sitting around a table and that someone was going to come in and say, hark, Hark. We have received a poem from Jerry Wren, a little girl named Glennon Doyle, and that they were going to listen and they were going to go, yes, peace is the answer.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And that that was gonna do it.

[Amanda]

They had never in low so many negotiations considered that the the question, isn't peace the answer? They thought we had never thought of that. They probably hadn't, to be totally honest with you, thought of that.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. But I just. I just.

[Amanda]

Amazing.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, let's take aside the whole point of this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

In terms of, like, trying to create peace with Russia and the U.S. i want to just dig into these two lines that make me know you better.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

And make me understand the way you think about conflict, which is revolutionary for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

A disagreement is two different ways of thinking.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

What?

[Abby Wambach]

That's amazing. Okay. And then an agreement is a compromise.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's not like you have to totally agree with someone to reach an agreement. It's like we have an agreement. When you think about it, a contract is an agreement. She probably really didn't want it to narrow out to 5 cents a day. But we made an agreement.

[Glennon Doyle]

But it's my contract, right?

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

My version of saying, I have a way of looking at this that I think will protect all of us better. Yeah. And it's just different forms. But are you saying that you think it's interesting to think about disagreement not as we're both looking at the same things and drawing different conclusions, but that we are thinking about things in different ways, not necessarily even having different opinions, just a different thing thought approach to each problem?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Yes and yes. And also I just think it's interesting because it makes me understand the way that you engage, like, conflict is like. No, like, that is the worst thing to happen. That is the end of the road. And for me, reading that when you're however old. How old were you?

[Glennon Doyle]

I think third grade.

[Abby Wambach]

Third grade. You're eight years old. To know that you're like, conflict is just two different ways of thinking. It doesn't have to be so serious.

[Glennon Doyle]

But then Gorbachev.

[Abby Wambach]

But then on the other hand, an agreement is a compromise.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

So that means, like, there's space in between every bit of it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Does that make sense?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, there's. There's protective measurements inside of it too. Like, in order for us to get to where we need to go doesn't mean we. Doesn't mean we have to enmesh ourselves.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right.

[Amanda]

Right. Like you're not giving up your entire world view because you've reached an agreement. It's not like, okay, you're right about everything.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Amanda]

It's like agreement is a compromise. It's like, I still think X, you still think Y, but we're agreeing on Z, and I don't have to, like, give up my personhood.

[Glennon Doyle]

In reaching that agreement is so important to me. So maybe that was my way of saying the Gaddafi in me sees the Gaddafi in you. And I know that you don't want anyone to change you, Gorbachev, so nor do I. So let me present to you war and peace in a different way. Not where you have to lose who you are or you're subsumed by anyone else, but in a middle road where we can both remain ourselves and find a path forward. So thank you, Abby. Okay. That is something. And you know, I just think that. I don't know if it's a stretch, but there's some sweetness to a little kid trying to solve war across the planet in her classroom. And there's that, I feel, honoring of my inner child. And also there's a bit of a grandiosity to it. There's a bit of a. Like, from whence did I get the idea that anyone asked me to solve this problem as an 8 year old? Or like the idea that if I just put words in of the correct order, I will be understood and everyone else will understand that the problem in the world is just that no one's written the right poem yet.

[Amanda]

Yeah, all the problems in the world result from my failure to communicate. That's.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh my God. I really do believe that. Oh, I really do believe that. It's some version of the AA personality that's like I am the piece of shit around which the world revolves. Right? It's like narcissism and neuroticism completely, completely hand in hand at the same time.

[Amanda]

You know what else I got from that poem? Thinking very, very carefully about those two lines you just said, I just thought to myself, huh, I think the word.

[Abby Wambach]

Dis.

[Amanda]

Comes from having a disagreement with someone. You're dissing them, do you think?

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, I do. Yeah.

[Amanda]

That's neither here or anything.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it also could come from like disempowering them or dis, like a lot, I guess, a lot of things. But that might be right, maybe.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Right.

[Amanda]

Just throwing it out there. I'm sorry, that.

[Glennon Doyle]

That was the takeaway. Okay, before we stop, this is what we need to do real quick, briefly. I think each of us needs to say, you know, all the rage of reparenting our inner child. What is it about our inner, our child self that we want to honor and bring into the world? And which parts do we feel like show up in a way that we could upgrade, right? Like in service of that child? Now that we have an adult consciousness, what parts of our inner child do we want to let lead? And which parts do we want to say? Oh, honey, maybe not that I think.

[Abby Wambach]

I'll just go first, but I think that we all know for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, we don't.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, we do. We've talked about it the whole time. And during my part that Joy. I'm letting joy lead my life right now. And play.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, great.

[Amanda]

Amanda, I think that I would like to. Honor the part of me that wants to love and care for myself and the people I love with a lot of energy and resourcefulness and planning and care and love that part of me. And I would also like to encourage that part of me to. Drive less defensively to. To allow life to unfold without feeling like it's reckless driving. To allow. I want to figure out. My goal in life these days is to heal my nervous system so that I know what is actual danger and what is actually just life.

[Abby Wambach]

Nice.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's good.

[Abby Wambach]

It's really good.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, well, I asked you guys the question. I don't exactly know what mine is, but I think maybe it has to do with having the goal of expression, just be expression, and not thinking that it's some, like, divine job to fix everything or I think that, say, causes a mess in my life. So something about that. Okay? Something about that. And we love you, pot squad. And thank you for hanging in there with us. Thank you for the question.

[Amanda]

That was such a fun. That was so fun.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes. And everybody, everybody get a little picture of themselves as a kid and keep it close. That is a hack. Okay? Just do that. Just do that. Put it close to you and see how it changes things for you as you remember your little tender child self doing the best she could. We love you, Podsquad. See you next time. We Can Do Hard Things is an.

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Independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us. We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard things show on TikTok.