← We Need to Talk Podcast 
We Need to Talk Podcast
He Powerfully Shares How Depending on God Changes Marriage & Ministry w/ Matt Chewning
02:06:35
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- [00:00]
A
You said you got your wife pregnant before you were married.
- [00:04]
B
Oh, you just want to bring that up huh?
- [00:06]
A
I had to.
- [00:06]
B
You just bring it up. My path.
- [00:07]
A
I had to do it.
- [00:08]
B
We went to CVS to go grab a pack of condoms. I opened up that pack of condoms and there were no condoms in the box. And it was like, yo, the Lord stole our condoms. Because what I did made her angry. Why do I immediately result to trying to defend myself? Manipulate a situation, change your feelings. Trying to control your feelings to get you to see me for what my motives were, not necessarily what I did. My motives weren't bad, but my motives don't matter because they hurt you. So now we're fighting over my motives and not the hurt. Is all shame based. Because what I'm believing she's saying is you're a bad person. So I was like, renew your mind. Mercy is new every morning. You got to remember mercy every morning. Why? Because you went to bed and you woke up, your body forgot it.
- [00:55]
A
The person that is trying to defend themselves really is now stepping into the courtroom to justify.
- [01:00]
B
That's so powerful. Say that again.
- [01:02]
A
Taking the responsibility of the Creator that he could present her before himself blameless. So when we take the job to present ourselves blameless, then we have snatched the job of the groom.
- [01:14]
B
The more godly you become.
- [01:16]
A
Come on man.
- [01:16]
B
The more wicked you realize you are in my godliness. I'm realizing my thoughts matter now. I'm to the place where I actually don't know how to fix this. So the more you walk with the Lord, the more you realize your deep dependence on the Lord. I think that's where the spiritual power comes from. 120 get filled with the spirit and it's Peter who gets up and he's like, let me tell you who the Christ is.
- [01:43]
A
Oh my God. You knew he was going to deny you. He did it. He had an opportunity to walk on water.
- [01:49]
B
Sank.
- [01:49]
A
You cast the devil out.
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B
He's like, don't wash my feet. Who do you think you are?
- [01:53]
A
You put on a sword, you cut ears off. And that's the one.
- [01:56]
B
That's the one. We wouldn't let Peter pastor our churches.
- [02:01]
A
When Jesus said, hey, you guys gotta eat my flesh and drink my blood. And he said, are you also gonna leave me? And Peter said something interesting. Where will I go? Yeah, like, dude, you were a professional fisherman. And outside of Jesus, now it's where will I go? That's all Jesus could entrust. You are lost without me and you know it.
- [02:21]
B
And you know it.
- [02:24]
A
And The Lord reveals himself to me. This is not a podcast.
- [02:28]
B
This is a deliverance ministry.
- [02:29]
A
God is going to deliver just as many, if not more, here than he does inside of church buildings.
- [02:33]
B
And you got to keep giving yourself over to it. It's proving it to you over and over. And the weightiness of your anointing.
- [02:39]
A
The Lord says thousands will be delivered. It is an honor, y'. All. I didn't even see this one coming. I have my brother, my new brother,
- [02:49]
B
my new brother, my new brother, my new brother.
- [02:52]
A
Baby, come on, let's go. He's already here, man. Welcome. Welcome to Pastor Matt Tuning, man. I'm so happy to have you here, bro.
- [02:59]
B
It's an honor.
- [03:00]
A
Welcome to the we need podcast, man.
- [03:02]
B
Yes. Dude, it's. It's a joy, bro. Bro, I'm a fan.
- [03:06]
A
No, look, I. I didn't know what I was gonna get when I reached out, but I was just, like. I got to. I just, like. I just. I watched some videos, and I was just. Sometimes when you see certain videos, people's hearts jump out at you. And that's what happened. I was just like, I see this man's heart in him. Speaking. I don't know him, but I feel like I already do.
- [03:26]
B
You're Nigerian, right?
- [03:27]
A
Yes, I am.
- [03:27]
B
See, I got 7% Nigerian in me. That's what it is. That's what it is, bro. We're family. That's how it works.
- [03:33]
A
What he was doing.
- [03:34]
B
The Lord knew my brother from the gates, right out the gate.
- [03:38]
A
I'm going to die. Look, there's no holes, bars. There's no, like, parameters. So I'm gonna jump right in. I want to understand you a little bit because you are a pastor. People are seeing you go viral now, but you've been doing this for a little while. Please tell me just a little bit about yourself.
- [03:53]
B
Sure.
- [03:53]
A
And even how 15 years ago you planted.
- [03:56]
B
Sure.
- [03:57]
A
Netcast church and how that all came about. I want to kind of discover you real quick.
- [04:00]
B
For sure. For sure. So. So I. Let's start back, like, all the way to.
- [04:06]
A
Yes.
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B
Let's just go as far back as we can. But we're going. We're going for.
- [04:09]
A
Let's go.
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B
Mom's Jewish.
- [04:10]
A
Okay.
- [04:11]
B
Dad's Catholic.
- [04:11]
A
Okay.
- [04:12]
B
They split up when I was young. My mom was pregnant with my brother when they. When they. When they split. And so I never grown up in a Christian home. I grew up in New Jersey, and there's not a lot of Christians in Jersey. And my dad, he wound up moving to New York, and so, you know, I did the whole split in time between two different places. They both got remarried. When they got remarried, you know, I had some step parent issues. You know, I don't know. That's, that's, that was kind of heavy. Probably plays a fairly large role in my overall story. Your step parents is not the easiest thing. Formed me a little bit, but then let's talk about my faith. Wound up being recruited to play basketball at a small Christian college in Boston called Eastern Nazarene College. It's not even a school anymore.
- [05:02]
A
Do you like, do you ball, bro? I hoop, yeah.
- [05:05]
B
No, no, for real. I can hoop, bro. Like, like I'm trying to do you hoop?
- [05:09]
A
Not like that, no, no, I hoop.
- [05:11]
B
Oh no, I can hoop. No, I can like it. Everybody who knows me personally can know. Will attest that Matt hoops now I'm getting older. Okay, gotcha. Okay. I need to get some peptides or something like that or some trt. Try to like, you know, keep it, keep it young. But like, but yes, so I'm still a Hooper. I still try to hoop. But anyway, so. But basketball honestly plays a. Is a big part of my story.
- [05:33]
A
Okay.
- [05:34]
B
So I wound up playing. Playing basketball at a small Christian college. Had never met Christians before. Christian campus. I think everybody's weird. I mean, you know as well as anybody else, right? I mean, what you do is you, you unravel. You do a really good job of unraveling the awkwardness of Christian subculture. And I love that about what you do, bro. That's very special. That means a lot. And so. But I got, I got saved within that kind of weird Christian subculture, but by a dude who was not a part of it. But the whole campus was, you know, I'm saying it was a Nazarene college. Very fundamental, very legalistic. But this dude named Ricky Grant, he's from Dorchester, Massachusetts. I asked him who. You know what, everybody kept saying that Matt needs to get saved because I like hip hop. Favorite movie was like Bad Boys, you know, like.
- [06:21]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
And people didn't understand like how I could be at this college and that Matt needed to get saved. And so I asked my buddy Rick, I said, Rick, what does it mean to be saved? And as well as 18 year old could do. He just shared the gospel with me. And man, when I tell you, you know, I'm kind of, I'm. We don't need to get too far deep into like theology.
- [06:42]
A
We can. You need to.
- [06:44]
B
We can. But you know, I, I think part of my bent towards Reformed theology is wrapped up in the. Not just what I see in the scriptures, also my experience. Like, I was not seeking after Jesus, bro. I, I was on a street corner, asked the right question. A guy told me the gospel and I was like, yo, I believe in Jesus. And I couldn't, like, no convincing necessary. He was just told me as a 17, 18 year old kid, like, this is who Christ is, this is what he's done. And I was like, yo, I believe in that and I don't know why, you know what I'm saying?
- [07:18]
A
That's crazy.
- [07:18]
B
It's just the Holy Spirit, right? It's like the Holy Spirit grabbed ahold of me and it was almost as if I believed in Christ before I even knew who Christ was. It was like as soon as he explained, I was like, oh, that's what I, that's what I believe. But it was like I believed that moment. It was like. It's very odd, man. It's hard to explain without going into the full detail. I basically, I was in this hospital, it's a whole thing. But I had an inflamed gland in my groin. And so I went to the hospital to get checked out. Doctor made me think I probably had some sort of STD or something like that. So I started freaking out and, and I had an experience with the Holy Spirit in his hospital room when Ricky had come with me because he was also on a basketball team. And I had this experience where I was in his room. I'm making all sorts of weird promises to the Lord like, I'll never look at a woman again, ever. I'll never touch a woman ever again, as long as I don't die of whatever they think I got right. And it turned out it was just like an inflamed gland, a virus pass through my body, get caught in a lymph node, something like that. He was like, we can't figure out what this is. Okay. But I will say, when the doctor walked out, I remember sitting on this hospital bed and beginning to pray for the first time.
- [08:32]
A
Wow.
- [08:34]
B
And beginning to move from a place of I'll never do anything wrong again. You know, like, to who? Who am I talking to? Like, who is God? You know, all these people at this Christian college talking about Jesus and the Lord. And I'm like, lord, okay, Like, I want that. And I get a little like, you know, like I got like chills even thinking, and this has been now 25 years ago, but the Holy Spirit just met me in that room and, you know, now it's so funny dude. Like how in hindsight you see so much more clearly because now you have scriptures that like make sense of it all. But all I know now is that it was the Holy Spirit, who is also known as our advocate and our comforter, provide for me in a moment as a 17 year old kid in a hospital room, a piece that surpassed my own understanding. And I walked out asking my friend what does it mean to be saved, right? And so when he explained it to me, I was like, I want that. And so that was 25 years ago and I thought I'd graduate and make a lot of money. I graduated with a business degree. I thought that I would climb the corporate ladder and I did corporate work for about seven years or so and met my wife when we were in college. We get into all that too. She got pregnant before we were married. We get into that too. But man, I was radically saved, you know. And now I'm pastoring a church and I never in a million years would have ever thought that that would be my story. Nor honestly have I wanted it to be my story.
- [10:30]
A
What's going on, family? It's Ezekiel. Thank you so much for watching this episode. Sometimes it feels like these conversations are just interesting, but list they are unraveling some of the deep rooted things that we've been facing for years. Scripture says in Proverbs 11:14, where there is no guidance, the people fall. But in an abundance of counselors there is safety. Many of us are trapped in broken cycles, but we're not talking to anyone about it. That's why James 5:16 says, Confess your faults one to another so that there may be healing. And of course Jesus Christ is our ultimate healer. He's our all in all. But there is a level of wisdom and growth that we access when we avail ourselves to people who are willing to listen and who can help us. Especially people who are trained. See, a therapist is trained to listen, ask questions, and help you see things through a different perspective. They're able to assist you by giving you new language for old issues and helping you navigate some of those tough things that we all have a hard time and get stuck with. And that's why I'm super grateful that BetterHelp is the sponsor for this video. They're on a mission to making it easier for people to start therapy. It's a totally customized experience, so of course you can search for Christian therapists who could understand your needs with a biblical perspective. That's why I need everyone to head to my description right now There's a link which has a questionnaire, and once you fill it out, you'll be able to be matched with a therapist in as little as a couple of days. Better Help accepts both HSA and FSA cards, making it even easier to prioritize your mental health. In 2024 alone, over 137,000 people use their HSA or FSA benefits for therapy through BetterHelp. So be sure to use yours. They expire. And don't worry, you could easily switch to another therapist if it's not the right fit. And just because I love you, I want everyone to use my link. Betterhelp.com we need to talk. You'll be able to get 10% off your first month of therapy. And don't say, I never done nothing for you. And remember, a life without counsel is a life not steward. So let's get better together. All right?
- [12:34]
B
You know, the Lord has had to do a great work, so you didn't want that.
- [12:38]
A
How did you get into it?
- [12:39]
B
Who wants to be in. Like, think about it. Like, who wants to be a min. Like, who wants to be in ministry?
- [12:44]
A
Some people do.
- [12:45]
B
And that's the problem, bro. Like, if we're just honest, you know, my. My dad, who's. I don't know if my dad's a believer or not. Maybe he is, maybe he's not. He lives in Charlotte, so. So he's kind of adopted. I think some. There's some cultural Christianity that exists in the south that we don't get where I live in Boston. And so. But maybe he's a believer. And. But anyway, I remember my dad telling me, like, why are you trying to be a pastor? You could be so much more. And. And I was confused on what he was saying. So, you know, I pried a little bit. He's like ministry or religious work, like, that is what people who cannot have any influence in any other areas of life find themselves jumping into so that they can now have power. And. And that was. And I would say at that time, for sure, my dad was not a believer. He might have become one in the last, you know, maybe 10 years or so. But this was early on, and he was like, you know, you are a athletic young man. You're good looking. You've always been popular. You've always had good people around you. Like, you know, like, you having power and influence has not been like a. A problem. Why are you doing this? And that's crazy. And it is crazy, but it's also fascinating that that's how the world perceives most pastors. And honestly, being in ministry, sometimes you're like, what. What is going on here? Yep. You know, like, why. Why are you doing this? You know, and I'm not trying to throw shade. I'm just saying when you look at the American church in general, you do have to ask some of those questions.
- [14:33]
A
I think many people try to fix their brokenness through the pulpit.
- [14:37]
B
Yeah.
- [14:38]
A
And it shows.
- [14:39]
B
Yeah. It's like counseling. A lot of counselors. Right. Therapists. You're like, huh?
- [14:48]
A
What?
- [14:48]
B
You're more broken than I am, you know?
- [14:51]
A
Yes.
- [14:52]
B
And. And again, not that a pastor has to be perfect or anything. I'm not saying any of that.
- [14:57]
A
Right.
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B
But, you know, it's is really interesting to think about what motivates a person to be in ministry. Obviously, the call of God is so important and profound. And you should. We should all be able to point back to the stories of the call of God on our lives and how God affirmed that and confirmed that and what, you know, what God had to go through, you know, to grab us and to pull us into this.
- [15:18]
A
Yes.
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B
But. But it. This is not like the profession. No. I don't know who grows up and is like, I want to be a pastor at like 8 years old, you know, and if they do, you wonder why? Is it because love the Lord or are you seeing something in the power of this that you don't think you can get anywhere else? It's a dangerous thought, but it's crazy, right?
- [15:41]
A
Why'd you stop there? No, no.
- [15:43]
B
I don't know. We got f. I tried to fight it, bro. I tried to fight. I didn't want to do this.
- [15:48]
A
We got to swing back around to that. But what I want to know is you. You said you got your wife pregnant before you were married.
- [15:56]
B
Now you just want to bring that up? I had to say bring it up.
- [15:59]
A
My past to do it. I mean, I'm not trying to throw shade. Were saved.
- [16:03]
B
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [16:04]
A
Talk about it and how. I mean, did you have to hide that starting your church.
- [16:09]
B
Hey, guys.
- [16:11]
A
Everything has always been perfect or was that part of the testimony? I want to know a little bit about that.
- [16:15]
B
Yeah. Well, let's just talk about how that happened.
- [16:18]
A
Okay.
- [16:19]
B
Without getting into great detail, obviously, but like.
- [16:21]
A
Right.
- [16:21]
B
So the story of my wife getting pregnant is. Is somewhat comical. When we first met, I was a brand new Christian. She's a pastor's kid. And it wasn't love at first sight. For me. It was for her. It wasn't. I was kind of Like a bad boy. I was like the. I was kind of vulgar, had an attitude. I was kind of just a jerk, you know, as a young kid and as a teenager. We met when I was 17. She's two years older than I am. And so. And so when I became a believer, our friend group was all kind of connected. And after I became a believer, I just started just shooting my shot, you know? Yeah. And she put me in a friend zone for a little bit.
- [17:05]
A
And most people never emerge.
- [17:08]
B
It's so hard. But you. Sometimes you just gotta go for it, though. That's how you emerge out. That's what I did. She. I was in a friend zone, and I was like, I'm tired of being a friend zone. She looked at me one day. We were just. This is how much in a friend zone I was, bro. We were watching tv, hanging out. She's like, will you rub my back and hang? And she got me in a friend zone. And I'm like. I'm like, yeah, we're just watching the tv, you know, high school or college, you know, just doing, like, the. Yeah. And she looked at me and she was close. I was like, that's either now or never. You know, you gotta. Sometimes you just gotta get out the friend zone. So I went in to kiss her. She swerved on me. I was like, dang. But it's okay, you know, Try to. Men, sometimes. You need to just try to get out the friend zone. Okay. So anyway, I tried to kiss her, and she swerved on me. And then she felt guilty. I'm like, you felt guilty? So she felt guilty, came back and kissed me, and it was a terrible first kiss. And then things got mad awkward for, like, two weeks. But then what happened to those two weeks? I don't even know why we're on this conversation, but what happened to those two weeks is she felt weird. I felt weird because we had become really good friends. Oh, wow. And so now it was, like, weird. And then once I was coming out of basketball practice and I saw there, and I just walked over to her, and I was like, yo, we got to stop being weird. And I literally just grabbed her. I picked her up, and I was like, yo, we got to stop being weird. And then I put her back down. And then it was like we were together ever since. How wild is that? Yo, is that great?
- [18:35]
A
Take notes.
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B
You know the weirdest way so
- [18:39]
C
that
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A
you just got insane.
- [18:41]
B
You just got to go for it. Yes.
- [18:42]
A
Anyway.
- [18:43]
B
Anyway, that was weird. But when we started to date, we started to sleep Together pretty early on. And I didn't really know why this would be wrong. As a brand new Christian, having never been in a Christian circle, having never. I just didn't. I was raised in a home where, you know, like, I have one time for. For Christmas in my Christmas stock. And I had like a pack of condoms that my mom put in there because she's like, you're gonna be safe if you're gonna do this. And I know you're gonna do this. So it's like. And so it was just. That's how I was raised. So I didn't. Part of the process of sanctification and becoming a believer. You know, Jesus tells us, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded.
- [19:36]
A
Right?
- [19:37]
B
And we don't put enough emphasis on the second portion of that, which is like, yo, you got to learn some things. I didn't know my Bible. I didn't know there's elements of morality that you know are right and wrong. So, like, I would have known an affair is bad or like, murder is bad, stealing's bad, lying's bad. But like, even with your girlfriend, like, I, like, like this is mutual. Like, there's what's wrong with this. And so I just didn't have. But then in time, obviously, the Holy Spirit began to convict us. But the problem is, is that once you cross that line, right, it's hard to go back, bro. And so, you know, it's like, it's like, you know how it is when you're going to watch a movie with your girl for the first time and you got, you got your hand on the side and she got her hand there. You, like touch pinkies. You're like, oh, how was that? Felt like really good. Yeah. Butterflies. Oh, I'm feeling really good right now. And then it's like the whole hand, and then it's like hand on the leg, and then it's like the, the head, right? Like the head on the side. We're like huddled up, you know, and you're like, this feels so good. Well, after you've been sleeping together, that's.
- [20:50]
A
The pinky ain't gonna do it.
- [20:51]
B
The pinky don't do it no more. You know what I'm saying? And so we had to learn, you know, we just had to learn unlearn. That's a great way to put it. We had to unlearn and. Which was really hard. So what would happen is, is we Would. Oh, dude, I got stories, bro.
- [21:08]
A
Go ahead.
- [21:08]
B
We're just going to talk.
- [21:09]
C
We're going.
- [21:09]
A
You got stories. We got time, bro.
- [21:11]
B
So like, we would go months and not touch each other and. And be so. It'd be so healthy. And then it'd be like, she come out in that outfit and you're like, where are we going? Nah, let me tell you where we're going. Let me tell you, you know?
- [21:27]
A
And so, like, you know, Matt been a player, guys. So I don't know where he picked her up and said, we going together. We ain't going nowhere. I know a player when I see one. Oh, my God.
- [21:39]
B
You know, so it'd be. It would be these weird moments where it's like we were doing so well, being so faithful, and then it was like, the flesh is so powerful. Come on, man. So powerful. We don't give the flesh enough credit with his power. And the other thing about the flesh is the flesh will always adapt. And so what I mean by that is that you can take your eyes. So for a long time, you're fighting against, like, sexual sin, and then now you're fighting maybe a different area of your life, and you take your eyes off of the sexual sin, and your flesh is just adapted because as you're fighting sexual sin, you've got these other things over here that are creeping up that now you take your attention towards that, and now the sexual sin is back. You know what I'm saying? And so the flesh is always adapting.
- [22:22]
A
Absolutely.
- [22:23]
B
The flesh never gets saved. People don't realize that the flesh never receives salvation ever.
- [22:28]
A
Come on.
- [22:29]
B
Right? It never receives sanctification. The flesh never. It strengthens, it adapts. It turns its back on the. You know, it's just. It turns its back on you every day.
- [22:40]
A
Wow.
- [22:41]
B
And so for us, we would go months and we would take our eyes and our attention off of maybe sexual sin and focus on other things where we're fighting the flesh, and then it just adapts back. And so anyway, we would go months without touching each other, and then, boom, you know, it'd be a week. But one time, bro, this is crazy story, bro. I've never shared this publicly, so I'm pumped to do it.
- [23:04]
A
Here we go.
- [23:05]
B
So we had. I don't even remember what went down that made us just give up, but it was like, oh, we're sleeping together today. Like, this is it. And we got in a car and we started to drive somewhere, and so we went to CVS to go grab a pack of condoms. We drove Somewhere to, like, just go and just connect in the. In the car. And I opened up that pack of condoms, and there were no condoms in the box. And you talk about something that'll mess up a mood, bro. You talk about something that's like. You talk about a vibe kill. Oh, man. Because it was, like, as clear as day, I'm telling you, bro. And by the way, I'm thoughtful. I know for a fact there was
- [23:54]
A
some weight to it.
- [23:55]
B
I know for a fact I did one of these chicka, chicka, chicka, you know, like. And then it was just gone. And it was like, yo, the Lord stole our condoms. That's insane.
- [24:05]
A
The Lord.
- [24:06]
B
The Lord stole the condoms at vibe Kill. And so I just remember. And so we have stories like that where the Lord would, like, check us. But then there was other times where, you know, Romans 1 where it's like, I'm gonna give you over to this so you could. So you could experience it and inexperience, and it's going to harm you. It's not going to help you. You know, that's the whole Romans one thing. I'm. I'mma give you over to the sin that you desire. And in doing so, you're trading the truth of God for a lie. And you're worshiping no longer the Creator, but creation. And in doing so, you're bringing upon destruction and wrath on yourself. And so. So we experienced some of that. But so there was these moments where we would. We would just fail. We'd give in. And so December 30, 20. 2002. So 2002. And we were going to. We went to my dad's house to go and hang. He's living in New York. We're engaged at this point now. And. And my dad is like, all right, you guys are staying in. In here, like, and put us in the same room. And I was like, dad, I'm not. I can't be in that room. You gotta put me. And he straight up was like, this is your fiance. Don't be ridiculous. Like, you're getting married soon. That's where you guys are staying, right? Your brothers are in there. Like, nobody ever. There was no other room. So it was like, that's where you guys are gonna go. And. And that was the night she got pregnant with our. With our oldest, Daniel. So. So, you know, it's interesting, right? And so what the flesh does. Wants to blame dad, of course, you should have known better, you know, blame dad. But.
- [25:56]
A
Wow.
- [25:56]
B
But it was almost as if too, like, that night it was like we almost knew, you know, pull out game isn't great. You know, it was like, I don't know what you put on your podcast or what you don't put on your podcast, but it's like, I think that was it. And sure enough, she got pregnant. We found out she got pregnant, and we pushed the wedding up a couple months. You know, we went through the whole process where it was really hard for family, so her parents in ministry, but her family handled it great. I was just going to say this. It was so interesting. I was concerned about my parents, but far more concerned about hers. Man, they were so gracious. They were so. Like, we went and told them in person. Obviously, they were living in New York, and we went and told them in person. And, you know, I had this whole, like, this whole letter written, this whole,
- [26:56]
A
like, pitch, like, the prodigal son.
- [26:57]
B
Yeah, dude. And he was like, they go, you're gonna have a baby. That's okay. And it just. I remember, like, Beth and I both, like, tears welled up in our eyes in that moment. Just like, man, that's so gracious. Like, and it helped us, like, we're gonna have a baby. So it helped get over some of that shame in that moment, because when you see grace from another person, it helps with the shame.
- [27:25]
A
Wait, wait.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah.
- [27:26]
A
Don't move too far from what you just said.
- [27:29]
B
We could come back to shame, too. But then my. You know, it was a. It was a crap show with my parents. My mom was like, pushed us to an. For an abortion. My dad and stepmom weren't.
- [27:41]
C
They.
- [27:42]
B
They didn't go that route. They were just so disappointed.
- [27:45]
A
And they were disappointed.
- [27:46]
B
Super disappointed. Isn't that crazy, bro?
- [27:48]
A
What. It was like, what happened to the condom like that or.
- [27:50]
B
Yeah, more like. What about protection? You're irresponsible. It was more like, you're irresponsible. You threw. You're throwing your life away. Like, they thought when we came to tell them that we were. That. That Beth was pregnant. They thought we were because it was an. It was like an intense. We were like, coming to say, like, we have something to talk about. They thought we were coming to tell them we were breaking up. So you could imagine how that flipped, right? They thought, like, the engagement is off. And. And so, yo. My dad was so pissed. He has since apologized. He said some of the most harmful things. And in that, him and my stepmom. But they have since. You know, sometimes you can't help your own reactions. And. And I think that's why? So some. Sometimes, you know, I've been. I've been therapy for now a year. And I think one of the interesting things that therapy has taught me is that it's okay to be honest with your first reaction. And if it's not good, though, you repent and you turn from it. But if you're not willing to let that first reaction come out, you won't know it's in there. And so then you won't know what to repent from. But it's still in there. It doesn't matter that it didn't come out. It's still in there. And so. So, you know, they had some tough reactions to start.
- [29:08]
A
But I will say, man, I really wish. I mean, the anticipation of their anger and stuff like that same thing kind of happened with me and my wife.
- [29:17]
B
Okay.
- [29:17]
A
But there's no way in heck that I had to felt the liberty to actually go to my dad about it.
- [29:24]
B
Really, man.
- [29:26]
A
No, man. I was the. The golden child of the church community.
- [29:30]
B
Oh.
- [29:31]
A
I could not for my. For the sake of my reputation alone. There was nothing in me that would have been okay with letting her have the baby. I encouraged an abortion.
- [29:45]
B
Yeah.
- [29:45]
A
That's the way our story began before we got. Wow.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah.
- [29:49]
A
And so. And it was all based on if I would have known. Just if there was a percentage of me that thought that if I sat down with my father and my mother that I would hear, you're having a baby. That reaction that you got, that's okay. We got you. We'll look after you. Okay? We're going to help you guys and set up. It's not over. There's. An abortion would have been so far from me, but I just knew. I just knew I was thinking about something today. I'm going to let you get to it. You're talking about therapy. I was thinking about triggers. And I know triggers mean kind of just like this, you know, when something happens to you, then you can get triggered later on because it kind of makes you refer in a very, very violent way back to the things that had happened. But I feel like after you've been hurt or after you've been impacted or after you've seen something tragic or something disappointing. Triggers now are. Is this instead of hope, Hope is expecting the good, I guess triggers is expecting painful impact. Like I seen something horrible happening, and now I'm going to brace myself for some horrible type of impact. What I learned was if I held up a gun and I shot it, you'd probably get startled and you Duck. Right. But if I held up a gun and didn't shoot it, you probably get down and duck. What I'm saying is you don't need the impact to respond as if something tragic is gonna happen. There's no. You can't distinguish the reaction from a gun shooting and from a finger on a trigger. So what I'm thinking, when I think about triggers, I'm thinking about something existing inside of me that will cause me to respond as if something detrimental is happening. I went and did what I did because I made my trigger my reality. And it's this anticipatory idea that whatever I believe, the worst of what I believe has already happened, and I'm now being led by that. And so, bro, I think as a church, as a people, as a body, I think there are ways, there are preachings, there are messages, there's culture that could be shared that will allow someone to come in and know I made a mistake. But there's a safe place in the church, man. I did what I thought was the worst, but I heard Matt preach one day, and he told me it's not over.
- [32:16]
B
Yeah.
- [32:17]
A
Like, if I can't tell my parents, if I can't tell nobody, there's an answer. There's hope here.
- [32:23]
B
Yeah.
- [32:24]
A
And unfortunately, that wasn't my reality for the church.
- [32:27]
B
Yeah.
- [32:27]
A
I just want to say that. You keep going, bro.
- [32:29]
B
No, I. Because here's what's interesting about my story, is I put it in perspective differently today than I thought about it back then. Here I am going to the pastor of a Nazarene church, and Nazarene theology is. Comes out of, like, the holiness movement, where they believe in this second awakening. Right. Where they're. Where you can achieve full holiness on this side of heaven, where you. You might still sin, but there was never any intentionality in your sinning.
- [33:06]
A
Right.
- [33:06]
B
And. And, and so. And he didn't necessarily believe that, but that was the denomination and church that he was a part of.
- [33:14]
A
Gotcha.
- [33:15]
B
And to think about not only how they responded and reacted, but how genuine it was knowing that. What I know now is you have a congregation of people that are going to be. That are behind you right now, watching you and know your daughter's going to be pregnant before she's married, potentially. And I never saw it through his lens. Do you get what I'm saying? In his mom's mess, like, we don't see it through that. We only see it through our lens. But, like, where I am now in life, I'm, like, I'm seeing it through his lens. Because in some ways I've been in, I'm now in his shoes where it's like when my kid comes and tells me something like that, now I'm thinking through not just how does this impact them, but like, how does this impact me? And I felt like he's a hero in a lot of ways. The way that he led his family and led us in that. Because in a lot of ways he had far more to lose than we had. If you think about it. Right. His reputation was on the line. His ministry calling could have been on the line. His church and the way that they viewed him was on the line. But I think also the way that he handled us, the level of grace that he and my mother in law handled us is a great reflection of, I think, what the church should be. And so anybody who fights against that is like, what are we doing right now? Like, have you not read the book? Come on, come on. Like, what are we doing?
- [34:43]
A
So, yeah, caught red handed, like reminds me of a woman with that was caught red handed in the act. But you mentioned something, I want to jump to that. You talked a little bit about shame. I know shame is a heavy topic that we talk about amongst men, but we don't think about it as it relates to the things that happen in relationships, the things that happen in our families in leadership. Yeah. And believe it or not, even after we repent, sometimes even saying that, okay, we've made peace with God, somehow shame still ends up in the room. And I want us to kind of understand what is the difference between that shame and the conviction. And did you have to navigate shame one, having to go to church and be saved. And the person next to you before you're married has a belly.
- [35:30]
B
Yeah, you.
- [35:31]
A
It's very clear. This is one of those, you know, you got sin that is in your heart. There's sin that's in your belly. That's in your belly.
- [35:39]
C
Yeah.
- [35:40]
A
So just kind of navigating that and like, was there a level of. Did it ever get to a point where you were just standing proud and saying, yes, we sinned, but we are redeemed. She's pregnant, this is my child. Did you ever feel like that? Or was was shame still in the picture? And then also with that in mind, did you try to whitewash it going into leadership, leading your church, or even with your children?
- [36:05]
B
Yeah.
- [36:05]
C
So
- [36:08]
B
I would say no. The answer is we didn't try to whitewash it. No, we didn't. And I would say the shame, we didn't Shame is an interesting thing because it's so under the hood that I would say I haven't. I didn't even think I dealt with any level of real shame up until the last, like, two years. So.
- [36:33]
A
Whoa.
- [36:33]
B
Yeah, we could talk about that, too, because I. Again, I didn't grow up in the church, so my wife's experience is going to be a little different than mine. I didn't grow up in the church, so it was like, we messed up. Like, I know that I came to Christ, like, all by grace, right?
- [36:49]
A
Come on.
- [36:49]
B
Like, what are you. Yeah, like. Like, this is all. This is, like, all grace, guys. So I didn't really carry a ton of shame in the way in which I think we're just. We're talking about it right now. Like, I wasn't embarrassed. I think my wife was a little bit more embarrassed. Pastor's kid. That carries a. Some baggage, some weight. You live in a fishbowl. Everybody's involved in your life. You've tried to, like, button it up for as long as you could. And she was the good girl. My wife was the good girl. And so. So I think she carried it differently than I did. And I think in some ways, we've helped each other heal. You know, I helped her with vulnerability and authenticity and being the same in every room. And it doesn't matter what people think about us. Like, God's got us. And so I think in some ways, I've helped her with that, and in other ways, she's helped me see the deeper levels of shame that I didn't know I had. And so examples of that would be, like, the shame that you carry because of words that were spoken over you as a kid by people that you love and care about and that stuff. All of a sudden, you're 40 years old and you're like, why do I respond to this situation in our marriage like this?
- [38:08]
A
Wow.
- [38:09]
B
And you're like, oh, that's shame. So I'll give you an example. I was Beth and I did a. An intensive. I was called a soul intensive or something like that. But basically it was marriage counseling for five days. So we went to this marriage counselor in Orlando, Florida, just to get some work done. And we've always said we. We never want to settle for a good marriage. We always want to have a great marriage. And there were just things that weren't great. Some of it was my responses. Some of it was not dealing with some of the traumas that I had as a kid with my parents and my, you know, upbringing. And not knowing why I responded the ways that I did in a certain situation. So, anyway, long story short, we're in this counseling session and this therapist asked me, but my wife is crying. She's next to me. She's. She's in tears. I put my arm around her, and the therapist asked me, what are you feeling right now? I'm like, well, she's the one crying. Why are you asking? I didn't say that, but that's what went on in my mind. And I was like, I'm just sad that. That she's upset. You know, I am faking empathy is what I'm doing there. And I don't know. I am. I. I've been so trained to manipulate the situation so that people would think I'm a good guy. And so I. And I don't even know I'm doing this, by the way. And she said. She looked at me. I said, I just feel so sad that she's, like, so broken over this, you know? And she looked at me, she goes, no, you don't. I was like, yeah, dude. She was like, no, you don't. And I was like. And at this point, I'm broken enough as a human being and I'm aware theologically enough about myself to be like, I could be blind to this, you know? Like, I don't know. Like, I don't. That's how I feel. I feel. She's like, no, you don't. And she said, I'm gonna ask you the question differently. She had asked me earlier in the. In the. The week, so like, maybe two days early, she asked me if I dealt with shame and anxiety. I was like, I don't. I'm a risk taker. Like, if I fail, I fail. I pick it up and I just go again. I'm very gritty. Like. Like, I'm not. I'm not overly afraid to fail anyway. And I just remember saying, like, no, like, shame's not. There's. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I, like, know the verses.
- [40:36]
C
Yes.
- [40:36]
B
And she said. She said, okay, you. I don't think you feel sad, so I'm gonna ask you this. Let's start this. Where do you feel? I was like, where do I feel? She said, where in your body do you feel? And I was like, Like, right here. And she goes, what does that feel like? I was like, like, tight. She's like, okay, now put a name to that feeling, because the feeling isn't tight. What do you feel? And I was like, oh, shoot. Like I feel shame, I'm anxious, I'm nervous, I'm not sad. She's right. I get emotional thinking about this because it's so hard. Because for so long you can believe things about yourself and not know you're deceiving yourself, but that's just how the enemy works, right? And so, and she, she, she said, matt, until you're willing to stop wearing your own story on, you know, like a badge on your sleeve and be willing to sit in the reality of sadness from your own story
- [42:03]
A
and your
- [42:04]
B
own shame, you'll never be able to be empathetic to Beth and her story. And man, that messed me up, messes me up now because I think for a long time I've wanted to be empathetic and compassionate and caring. But you know, we all wear our stories as like a badge of honor, especially for those of us who have overcome some things. And so rather than sitting back and saying, that should never have been my story, we say, look at how I've overcome my story. And we get so fixated on the overcoming and we neglect the sadness and the shame that you had to overcome. And when you do that now, you become the new standard. And so what I mean by that is now you don't have the ability to look back at somebody who can't operate like you do, doesn't have the grit that you had. And by the way, that wasn't really grit, that was a trauma response that allowed you to survive your situation and they didn't have that situation. So why would they have that same trauma response and why would they have the ability to get through the things that you're able to get through when they hadn't gone through the things that you went through to get to where you are today? And so until you're able to look back at a picture of an 8 year old matt or a 12 year old matt and say, holy cow, like he was dealing with that. You know, we all, when we think of our past, a lot of us, we think of our past and we envision ourselves like who we are now. We don't look back, go look back at an old 8 year old picture and the stuff that you went through at eight years old and weep over the fact that as that little kid was carrying that weight, carrying the weight of like dad not showing up on a weekend when he promised he would and trying to be a man of a house. Go look at a, go look at yourself at 8 years old, trying to be a man at a house. I I had an 8 year old, a man of the house. And sometimes we tell this to our kids. You, you got to be a man here. Say I'm eight years old. So. So it, it takes years to work through that. And I'm still working through it. I mean, I still. Bro, I'm still dealing with. Just this week, bro. Just this week I'm dealing with. Why is it that when my wife gets upset about something with me that I did right, and her reaction isn't gracious and like loving, but anger because what I did made her angry, why do I immediately result to trying to defend myself, Manipulate a situation, change your feelings, trying to control your feelings to get you to see me for what my motives were, not necessarily what I did. Oh, you get what I'm saying? And so I want you to see me through the lens of my motives weren't bad, but my motives don't matter because they hurt you. And we always think, well, motives and intentions are the things that matter. And it's like that's not even. We don't even believe that for ourselves. If somebody crashes into us and kills our kid, but their intention wasn't to do it. Like, I'm still pissed off about it. You get what I'm saying?
- [45:24]
A
Yes.
- [45:24]
B
And so, and so, but why is it when that happens with my wife, do I immediately go into this defense mode and to the point where I literally feel like I cannot even get beyond myself in this to just understand that you're hurting. Like she's just hurting and in her hurt, she's going to respond a certain way. Why is it that I cannot empathize with her when what I did hurt her, even though she might think my motives were different? So now we're fighting over my motives and not the hurt? And it's, and it's all shame. It's all shame based. Because what I'm believing she's saying is you're a bad person. Not what you did was bad or not what you did was hurtful. Like, hurtful. I just believe that she's looking at me through the lens of you're a piece of crap, just like they always said that you would be and this is who you are. And so I'm now believing like the shameful voices that are leading me to now not be able to care for her because I'm so, so busy trying to focus on, I can't believe this thing is true about me when it's like I all of a sudden made it now about me.
- [46:34]
A
Wow.
- [46:35]
B
Do you get does that make sense? I don't know if that was clear or not, but that's the stuff. And that's stuff I'm dealing with like every day. And it, and I'm like, I'm like begging the Lord. I'm like, lord, this whole, this last week when I was just in Dallas, I'm like, lord, I need you to rid me of this. Like, get it out of me. And I, I hate it with such, like, I abhor it with such disgust that that's in me. But it's been 40 years in me. It's not going to rid of itself in, in a year. You know, you don't dig a hole for 40 years and fill it back up in a year. Like you've, it takes a long time. And so, but it's just so agitating. So agitating. But so shame, you know, it's, it's so deep how much of the scriptures are identity from beginning to end, straight from beginning to end. It's like, it's like I am restoring not just the world, but I'm restoring you back to your divine nature. Well, shame is like at the deepest root of who we are. So from beginning to end, the Lord is reminding us over and over again, I am your God, you are my people. Like you belong to me. You know, you're a holy people, you're a set apart nation. You know, you have royalty in your blood when you're king, your son of the king, constantly trying to remind us there is therefore now. That word now literally means now in this very moment. There's therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Like over and over again. This is the story of the scriptures of God reminding us of this. And I think he's just reminding us of this because it's the thing that we so easily forget. I don't care how long you've been a pastor. I don't care how good you think you are. I don't care how many Bible verses you've memorized. This is, this stuff is ingrained in your body. Whoa. It's in your body. It's literally your nervous system is carrying this. Your responses are so, you know, the nature of sin is not like this mythical thing is in your body. That's why he's like, renew your mind. Mercy is new every morning. You gotta remember mercy every morning. Why? Because you went to bed and you woke up, your body forgot it. You remembered the verse. You get what I'm saying?
- [48:40]
A
Oh my God.
- [48:41]
B
And so it's in your Body. So, and this is my whole point when we first started is like, your flesh never gets redeemed. And so you're carrying this thing around with you. Your flesh is always trying to remind you of your shame.
- [48:51]
A
Whoa.
- [48:52]
B
Always. And if it's not shame on sex before marriage, it's shame that you're not as popular as you want to be, or shame that you know that your wife is upset and that all of her emotions are your fault now. And so it's just. It's you. The second you turn to one thing, the flesh is just adapting.
- [49:10]
A
I almost want to find out like. Like, what is the antidote. But I want to say something before you said. Said that I think sometimes we don't easily spot shame because we assume shame always looks like hung head.
- [49:25]
B
Yes.
- [49:25]
A
I'm shameful when shame wears many faces. Right. And when you talked about wanting to kind of justify yourself with motive, I'm definitely going to be repenting and talking, talking to my wife. So, like, man, this was my intention. I didn't.
- [49:41]
B
You know how I. Yeah, you know who I am.
- [49:44]
C
You know me. Like, you know me.
- [49:45]
B
Why would you feel that way? Like, you're not. You're not believing the best. And the Bible's like. But when I read this, it tells me don't always believe the best. You know what I'm saying?
- [49:53]
C
It's like.
- [49:53]
A
And not just that, like, isn't like our faith in God. It's the God or the God that we put our faith in who justifies us. Right. So one, the person that is trying to defend themselves really is now stepping into the courtroom to justify.
- [50:09]
B
Dude, that's so powerful. Say that again.
- [50:11]
A
Taking the responsibility of the Creator. And now I've stepped into his shoes and I want you. What does the scripture in Ephesians 5 talk about with. With Christ and husbands, like Christ are to wash the bride with the word and so that he could present her before himself blameless. So when we take the job to present ourselves blameless, then we have snatched the job of the groom.
- [50:35]
B
Yes.
- [50:36]
A
To now fight to prove that we're something that only he has the power to prove.
- [50:43]
B
Yes.
- [50:43]
A
If you're trying to fight to show yourself blameless in a conversation, then you're already usurping the power of the one who is supposed to do so in the first place. I never saw it like that before. So to kind of deal with this, how do we, like, navigate it real time? We know what the Word says, but what does it look like real time to disown the Shame to walk in true empathy, to love like Christ loves.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah.
- [51:15]
A
Without fighting to protect ourselves.
- [51:19]
B
I think all of it comes back to being hyper aware of your own story. And I don't think. I think we'd like doing a good job. I think we do a good job. You know, if you're in the Christian world long enough, you're walking with Jesus long enough, you do a decent job of understanding at a surface level, you know, some of the things that you may have been taught. Yes. As a kid or. But, like, the deeper, deeper stuff. Such as, like, I'll give you. I'll give you another story for. For me, I used to. And again, come back full circles. Like, you either victimize yourself and you see yourself as a victim. And so when you do that, like, you're living in shame, and that's a little bit more obvious when you do that. Right. Or it comes out as pride because you're trying to hide the shame that you feel and you don't even. And a victim doesn't know they're being like a victim. And an arrogant person who's hiding their shame doesn't know that they're being an arrogant person hiding their shame. We just think we're operating in our most natural state. Right. But it's unredeemed. And so. But like, I have stories after stories of like, looking back on my past and everybody's different. But my story is like, you know, at 8 years old, I was having to take care of my brother, who was four years old, because we didn't have enough money to get babysitting during the summers. And so during the summertime, my mom would say, sleep in. And then when you wake up, here's a couple bucks, you know, and food's in the fridge, you know, chill, kick it. Hang around the neighborhood. And we lived in this apartment complex in Jersey. Just try to stay out of trouble and just have a good time. I'll see you at 5. And if I wanted, like, things, I would. I'm. I'm remembering now, Right. I'm putting it all together now. If I wanted things, I would have to figure out how to get them. And so that would be, you know, going to the. To the mother, stay at home moms who were living in the apartment building with their kids and that we had a trash can that was like 100 yards from our apartment that you'd have to take your trash to. I just go knock on doors, you know. You know, can I take the trash out for a dollar? Who does, you know, oh, Absolutely Right. But I learned in that season of life how to be charming. Okay. And, you know, if I. If I wanted something from the grocery store or, you know, I got kicked out of Bradley's for stealing a DMX CD back in the day, right? And it was if. Because if you wanted something, you had to figure out how to get it. If you didn't have the money, you figured out different ways. Or. I was like. I remember sweeping the front of a. A deli for egg sandwiches. My brother and I used to love getting, you know, if you're from Jersey, salt, pepper, ketchup, mayo on a. You know, on a hoagie roll. That's what we would get.
- [54:11]
A
Yeah.
- [54:11]
B
And. And you just learn how to manipulate situations for your favor. And so then what happens is, is you grow up, and now you have this skill that you had to learn for your own story, you had to learn for your own survival. There it is. And you think that this is a gift, and in some ways it is. In some ways, it is a teaching that the Lord has brought you through, and he was kind enough to allow you to, like, learn these things. But now you. Now you're using it for your own glory, and you don't even know it. You're using it for your own comfort, your own, you know, to win an argument, you know, whatever it is, to. To. To make a sale, whatever it is. And. And you're like, all of that comes from the fact that I, as a kid, wasn't. Didn't have the things that I wanted, and I felt like I needed more, and I figured out how to get more. Well, now you take that guy and you put him in a pastorate at 40. That could be a really scary thing if God doesn't reveal that and begin to redeem some of that. You know what I'm saying?
- [55:25]
A
That's so good.
- [55:26]
B
And so. And so anyway, coming back, like, how do you fix that? Is you got to go back to these stories. You got to go back to these stories and be, again, empathetic and sympathetic to your own story and sit in it, you know, godly grief. You gotta sit with that godly grief and allow the Lord the space and the time and have those hard conversations and weep and confess about things that you never thought in a million years was even in you. And you're like, wow, that's actually in me. That's crazy. So. So. And again, I don't think you ever get. I don't think you ever get past it completely. I think that's the Whole beauty of glorification.
- [56:07]
A
You know, it's almost like we talk about deliverance a lot on this platform. I think some people view deliverance as this position or state where we get to where we don't need the Lord. That's just simply not it. Where can I be where I don't have to call upon his name? What position can I be where I don't have to feel tempted? And I think that's an illusion. Right. Paul in Romans 7, he kind of tells us, like, in this. This body that we're in, we're going to deal with. And it's. It's proof that there's something holy on the inside of me that. That's in conflict with this flesh. And so when I see that, there is tension. Yeah, I'm alive, right? I'm alive. I know that something.
- [56:49]
B
That's the evidence that you're alive. That's Romans 8, bro. He's like, if you don't. If you feel that tension.
- [56:54]
A
Come on, man.
- [56:55]
B
The spirit is in you. That's how you know you got the spirit. Because if you're dead.
- [56:59]
A
Yes.
- [56:59]
C
Right.
- [57:00]
B
You don't feel that tension.
- [57:01]
A
Right.
- [57:02]
B
If the word of God can hit you, that means you're alive. If you feel the piercing of the sword, that means you're alive. Because if you're dead and you're. You get a sword, you don't feel that.
- [57:12]
A
Oh.
- [57:13]
B
You know what I'm saying?
- [57:13]
A
Come on, man. So that's it.
- [57:15]
B
You're right.
- [57:16]
A
That's it. That's. So. I think deliverance looks like a decision to walk with the Lord as he continues to.
- [57:25]
B
And.
- [57:26]
A
And the beautiful. The beautiful thing about this walk is I always realize the closer that you get to him, the more that he shows you. Like, the pruning is different. Right before, he was using an ax. Now he has a chisel. And it's just like, now it's like my tone, and now it's like my thoughts.
- [57:43]
B
Yeah.
- [57:43]
A
Now it's like how I treat each individual child. Now it's like, yes. Things that, you know, he let a lot of stuff slide, like in 2010.
- [57:53]
B
So crazy, bro.
- [57:55]
A
But in 2010, 26. It's like, God, it's almost like you're in my business.
- [58:02]
B
Yes.
- [58:03]
A
He's. He's my time with the Lord and how I spend my time with the Lord. Go ahead, man.
- [58:07]
B
Check this. I mean, I just had. I had this revelation recently. The more godly you become.
- [58:12]
A
Come on, man.
- [58:14]
B
The more wicked you realize you are. Think about that. That's so crazy. The more godly you become, the more wicked you realize you actually are.
- [58:25]
A
Come on, man.
- [58:25]
B
Isn't that crazy thought, man? Because in my godliness, I'm realizing my thoughts matter. In my godliness, I'm realizing, like, my motive was, like, distorted there. And you're like, yo, yo, 10 years ago, I didn't give two rips about that. Yo, I ain't care about my motive, yo, I gave that guy five bucks.
- [58:48]
A
Yes.
- [58:48]
B
You know what I'm saying, bro? Yeah, it's so crazy.
- [58:51]
A
Yeah, man.
- [58:52]
B
But the more godly become you, more wicked you recognize you actually are. And people think, people think it's the opposite. And this is where arrogance and pride gets in the way, is like, you think you're, you're, I'm more godly because I'm now, like, defeating all of these sins. And you're like, look at that. Look at how far I've come. Look at where I am. And you're like, yeah, where you are should be scary to you. Like, where you like, the more, the more godly you are, the more fear of the Lord like you should have, because you're beginning to see, See really what's in there, bro.
- [59:20]
A
I, I, I. My mindset as it relates to spiritual maturity is completely just flipped upside down. Like, I used to believe that this accumulation of understanding, wisdom experiences caused me to just be able to. It's like all in articulation and how I'm able to expound. But, man, a spiritually mature person has this, a relationship with God that allows them to see God in ways that you just didn't see him before. But it also impacts the way you see yourself. Totally also impacts the way you treat others. And so I know that someone has encountered God. I know that someone has a fear of God. When they carry the burden of love, they carry the burden of compassion. It's a burden that says, like, man. Now that God has shown me all this, I'm so much more careful. That's the word. I'm careful now. I am not haphazard in the way that I move because God has shown me so much. Imagine, like, imagine you were walking around with 2020 vision and then God put microscopes on your eyes. Like, bro, it's like, yo, I move different now. It's like, yo, look, I'm careful in the way that I move because now God has really opened my eyes.
- [60:43]
B
You see what you couldn't see before. It's so, yeah, so crazy. And the, the where it gets hard is when you begin to see Those things in you, and you're like, I now I'm. To the place where I actually don't know how to fix this. Like, that's where it's. That's where it gets weird. Is like. Because early on, as a believer, it's like, stop sleeping with her, yo. Like, I could just do that. Read your Bible more, You know what I'm saying? Like, just pray, sing a song. You know what I mean? Like, just sing the song, dude. Like, put your hands in the air. Don't you remember when you was like, yeah, like, oh, I put my hand in the air. You know, like, there's. And you start thinking. You're like, there's these things that I know I could do, but I'm not doing it. And then all of a sudden, you get to a place in your walk with the Lord where it's like, you're doing all that you know to do. I'm doing all that I know to do. And I'm like. And there's this crap in me that I cannot get out, which is. Just brings a level of dependence on God, the Holy Spirit that is so necessary in today's day, but it's also so necessary in my life. I just need such dependence on the Holy Spirit. And so the more you walk with the Lord, the more you realize your. Your deep dependence on the Lord. Like, reading another verse is not going to fix this. Memorizing another verse, I could quote you scriptures out the wazoo, bro. It's not. And it's not fixing the stuff that's in there. And it's not because I don't have a desire to do it. I'm begging God to wring it out. I often question, like, what Paul's talking about when he's talking about the thorn in the flesh. I don't know. But I do know this. He got to a place where he was like, I've done everything that I can, and I cannot get this out. It's dug in the flesh so much there. You know, there's. Imagine a thorn in the flesh. You ever have a splinter and you can't get it out?
- [62:23]
A
Oh, my God.
- [62:23]
B
And he's like, bro, this is in my flesh and I cannot get it out. Think about that. Because we think that we have a lot in our flesh that we could just get out. When you're young, especially as a new believer, your life is gonna behave. I remember thinking to myself, if I could just get married, I don't know if I'll have sin in me anymore, because I like, this is the thing that's killing me. I am lusting over this beautiful woman 24 7. All I want to do is getting in pants and have a good time. Like, that's all. Like, look at her. She's beautiful. She's amazing. She's fun. And I just want to consume. And it's like, if I could just marry her, everything will be all better. And then you get married. You're like, dang, bro, I got a lot of problems. You know, I didn't even know that was in me. I got so much more stuff. So it's. Sanctification is a crawl. It is a crawl. There is no sprinting to the end.
- [63:22]
A
Like, I love where you. You've taken this. I gotta ask you more questions. But where you've taken it is you're basically saying that now. Now that you know the verses.
- [63:32]
B
Yes.
- [63:33]
A
Spent the time teaching. You don't counsel people. You don't get through the counseling. You don't got. I mean, that's the craziest thing to have the capacity to have counseled people that have gone through death, infidelity, all the things, the whole spreadsheet. And then when it comes to your situation, saying, God, I do not know how that forces you to a place where I can't pull the answer out of my back pocket. I gotta spend time with you. And I think for those that he, you know, he calls, he draws us and he. It's almost like he compels us. I'll put it like this. For those that have spent time in ministry, especially leaders and I spent time with the Lord that teach the default. I mean, I'm sure I could throw you on a. On a pulpit and you could pull a sermon out the back of your pocket.
- [64:31]
B
Sure.
- [64:33]
A
God allows us to get to a place where that is impossible for your circumstance.
- [64:40]
B
Impossible.
- [64:41]
A
And then you ask, actually have to not just cry out to the Lord, but actually spend time. And he doesn't give you the answer for a while on purpose.
- [64:51]
B
Yeah.
- [64:52]
A
It's like, oh, so you want me to learn? You want me to obey. You want time to pass before you change this situation? What are you doing to me? Like, the pruning then is different.
- [65:06]
B
So, yes, he'll slap you.
- [65:07]
A
Like, back in 2018, he'll slap me quick. And I'm on my feet and I'm ready to go, man, I got that sin off me. Now he's dealing with the chisel, and he's taking. It's like it's taking too much time before he Allows me to get illuminated.
- [65:21]
B
What is that? It's frustrating is what it is. It is. It's frustrating. But. But I think that's where the. I think that's where the spiritual power comes from. So when God has you at your most rawest place and you're beginning to realize your own. Your own dependence and how necessary it is, like, you're not going to preach a sermon of, like, just get better.
- [65:58]
A
Oh, my.
- [65:59]
B
Your. Your whole message, all you see in the scriptures is, is your utter need for Jesus. That is what you need. That is who you need. Right?
- [66:11]
A
Come on.
- [66:12]
B
And so your, Your. Your message because. And that's where the power is, right? That's where the. That's where the power is. And so, you know, I even look at my own story. We get into this if you want, but, you know, probably, maybe. Maybe two years ago was around the time where I was just. It was stuff in marriage, it was stuff in me. It was like. Is just. I'm like, I just can't get over this hump. I don't even know what the hump is. I'm just dissatisfied. I can't. I can't keep my wife happy. I'm not happy. My church is doing well. But it's. That doesn't make. That's not, like, great. Like, like, that's not making me feel great. And. And there was like a. A weakness that I was walking in and in doing that, in walking in that weakness. And this was. None of it was intentional. It was just the Lord, like, brought me to a place of lowliness. And. But that's where the power began to come. And my ministry and my preaching and my loving of people, in my desire to, like, focus on the right things internally began to, like, take place. And all of a sudden, that's what God was really using. That's what God began to really use. You know, that's what he said to you. Because it's not your craft. You know, people. Guys are like, yeah, I'm just like, you know, cultivating my craft, finding my voice. You know, people like, I've been doing this 15 years. Like, I probably found my voice a long time ago, but there is now a power, I think, that I'm walking in, in a contentment in who I am. Not content that I am where I am, but a contentment in who I am and a desire for God to not keep me where I am, that I'm just. This is. This is where I'm at. And so I lead from that place. And when you Lead from that place. There's power in that. There's a real power in that. But a lot of people find themselves in trouble because they are still trying to wear. They're wearing the facade. They're still wearing the mask. They don't feel like they could be. They don't even know who they are. Forget about, like. Yeah, they don't. A lot of people, we don't even really know who we are.
- [68:40]
A
I want to talk about that. Like, your church a little bit. What does a successful preaching, a successful church, even. Meaning what does that look like now? Especially. We talked about Philip Mitchell, Pastor Mitchell, and what he's doing, and I didn't realize that you had known him from kind of way back.
- [68:58]
B
Yeah.
- [68:58]
A
In the day. And we've seen the exponential growth in that ministry. I don't think America has seen that in a long time.
- [69:05]
B
Yeah.
- [69:06]
A
I want to talk about what it really looks like. I mean, that's a hand of. That's the hand of God. Somebody's watching this and saying, well, what does the hand of God in my life look like in my small ministry, in my small town, in what God is calling me to do? And then, at least for you, like, what has that meant for you?
- [69:28]
B
So let me. I'll tell you. I'll bring you into a conversation I just had with my son today.
- [69:35]
A
Okay.
- [69:36]
B
All right. My son is 22 years old. He's getting married this summer, and he just took a role as a youth pastor at a church in Massachusetts. I'm super proud of him. And he's like, he's just a man. He's just a good, godly young man. But he grew up in a pastor's home. With that comes a fishbowl. With that comes. Everybody's got their eye on you. With that comes a level of pressure to perform, to not fail to be the good kid. Right. And we were having a conversation around. He's. He's preaching. This is, like, his fourth time preaching. Right. He's preaching this week and doing his cam. We were looking at Colossians 3, and he was like, dad, can you just help me? Like, I'm trying to, like, pull out my points and some of this stuff. And. And so we opened it up together. We're on the phone. I'm, like, sitting in the Delta Lounge about to come here. Yeah. So we'll open up Colossians 3. And it starts out. It says, if then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. So I started. He started asking, like, what do I pull out of this? And I said, well, before you can pull anything out of this, let me ask you some questions. Have you been raised with Christ? Like, and if you have, what does that do to you to know that you have been raised with Christ? He says, seek the things that are above. Where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. He says, seek the things. Are you seeking the things above? And then he defines how to do it. He says, set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are of the earth. And so I just said, before we start getting to points, what we got to do, bro, is are you raised in Christ? Are you seeking the things above? Are you setting your mind on the things above? You have to deal with that because we're. Before we get to points in a text, Come on, man. If you're going to try to give somebody something that you yourself have not dealt with having or whether or not you do have it or don't have it, then you can't. All you're going to do is get up and you're going to teach some Scriptures. And the. The craziest thing is the devil knows how to teach the Bible, too, right? The devil actually will probably break this down better than you and I can. He could pull out some three points of illustration, couple applications for you, and teach it really well. But real preaching. Real ministry and ministry is far more than preaching. Okay? But real ministry is done when the text is hitting you, transforming you. Right? And so people want to know what, like, successful ministry is. Successful ministry is when the Scriptures are flowing into you, and then all of a sudden, in all of your relationships, forget just preaching and, like, influence and Instagram followers, all that's so stupid. It's, like, flowing out of you in all of your relationships and every platform that you have, because it's coming from a place where it's dealt. It's done the work in you. So what you're seeing in Philip right now, I love Philip, and I've known Philip for years. Is you're seeing a man who, in the last, I would say, probably five years, bro, God has. I remember having conversations with Philip, and maybe you get his permission for me to share this, although I'm sure he doesn't care. But I was having a conversation with Philip eight years ago about stuff that was going on in him Caring about his platform. Caring about, like, why he was. I remember we had a conversation. He was like, I don't understand why I am. I am preaching the Bible. I bel. I love the scriptures. I don't know why the Lord has not. Has given me this burden to preach the Scriptures. And, like, my church is dying, and Covid is killing my church. And it was Victory Church back in the day. And, like. And he's like, I don't know why. And I would have conversations. And I was like, well, bro, you got to take your eyes off all that. And we would have conversations around that, like men do with one another, right?
- [74:15]
A
Yes.
- [74:17]
B
And I think what happened in the last few years is. And he talks about it. God has begun to wring some of that stuff out. And now there is a power. Philip Mitchell, for. I mean, for 10 years at least, I have told everybody that I knew that Philip Mitchell was the greatest preacher in America, and no one knew his name. We've known each other for a long time. We get into some of that story. Actually, that story is interesting, so I'd love to share it in a minute, but. But the power came when God began to wring out some of that stuff that was in there, because. And that's what successful ministry is. What you are seeing in Philip is not successful ministry. What you're seeing in Philip is the fruit of successfully having the sin in you rooted out is not a successful ministry. That's silliness. Like, if you think that's a successful ministry, then, like, I don't know. Like, I mean, think of all the. Think of all the guys that have built big platforms.
- [75:23]
A
Come on.
- [75:24]
B
That is not successful ministry. Like, just because a lot of people are responsible, responding in there and even getting saved. Like, God can use anyone to save anyone. Like, are you kidding me? Read the scriptures. He could use animals.
- [75:35]
A
Come on, man.
- [75:36]
B
He says the rocks are going to cry out. He says he could use looking into the sky. Right. The heavens are going to declare my glory. Right. He could use any. So it's not the number of people. What you're seeing in Philip is a man who's been wrong. And so. And so that's the fruit of a successful life. Right? So that's very different. So, you know, Beautiful, man. Yeah, dude. That's the truth about Philip. And. And he talks about it, but nobody else for whatever. Everyone else seems to miss that. And I love that about him, man. I love that about him. Philip's a dear brother. What's so funny about my relationship with Philip? So I'll give you a couple snippets. We met. We were both at a church in. We were both connected to a church. You know what? I'm gonna be careful with my details. We were both connected to a church back in the day.
- [76:27]
A
Okay.
- [76:28]
B
And I went and planted our church first. My church is called Neckcast Church, is in greater Boston, just north of the city. And Philip, a year later, went to go plant in Atlanta. And when we reconnected and we went, we got invited back to this thing in North Carolina. We reconnected in North Carolina. And we were both obsessed with the gospel, bro. Obsessed with the gospel. Like all the things that you're hearing come out of me. Like it's all Christ.
- [77:01]
A
Yes.
- [77:02]
B
Like it's all grace. Like Christ lived the life I couldn't, died in my place. For my sin rose in victory over Satan. Sin and death extends to be new life in Christ. I have nothing but Christ, bro. Like, that's it. There isn't. And then ministry is not just X's and O's, it's the stuff that I was just talking about. Is that right? And it's like, I love the gospel. And the gospel isn't just for your salvation. The gospel looking to the cross is a means of your sanctification. Every day you get up, you look at the cross and you remember what Christ has done. And it's all grace. That you're saved and it's by grace that you're sanctified. And he's sanctifying you by the same grace that he. That he used to save you. Right. And so we were falling in love with the gospel together at the same time. And we went to this conference and this conference was called a healthy church conference. And when I tell you this was the most unhealthy church conference imaginable, like, I cannot overspeak. As a matter of fact, the pastor of sins, he's still in ministry. He, you know, he's divorced now. It's not a church that I would. Again, I'm not going to name this church. I'm not trying to church bash. It's not, you know, we're all on our journey, but it's not a church that I would entrust any of my people to. And Philip and I went there and we were there and we left both thinking the same exact thing. Like, we no longer can be connected here. We love the gospel. And this is not the good news of the gospel. This is. This is man made and this is unhealthy and this is Going to lead people straight. This does not end well. I remember listening to this man pray. I'm sorry. I remember listening to this man preach that a woman has three roles if she's married to a man of ministry. First is this. You need to please him sexually so that he does not leave you. You need to be his friend because he cannot have friends in the church. Bro. This came. This is like a three point leadership message.
- [79:07]
C
And.
- [79:07]
B
And the third one is you need to raise his kids because his call is to raise up that church. You're lying to me, bro.
- [79:15]
A
You're.
- [79:16]
B
I swear to God. I swear to God. I. I was in this room and I would. I was beginning to hear men and women in this room. It's so good. Yep. Huh? Y. Tell him so good.
- [79:31]
A
His kids crazy.
- [79:33]
B
And I began to beg the Lord to kill this man on the stage. And I think I have scriptural ground to say that's okay to pray that. Okay, we get into that later if you want to, because this is heresy. This is defilement. This is objectification. This is. This is distortion of the beauty of the bride of Christ. Like, my first church is who's under my roof? Those are my babies. Those are my kids. I am unqualified to lead God's church if I am not leading my church and my first church, which is in my home first. Like, my wife's role is not to please me sexually. My wife's role is to be pleased by the Lord and to lead me to be the neck that turns the head right to. Like. Sex is a gift that's given to us to enjoy one another, to connect with one another. She's just not a means to my pleasure. That's the most asinine thing that you could tell a woman.
- [80:35]
C
Right?
- [80:36]
B
Like, what are we doing?
- [80:37]
A
Whoa.
- [80:38]
C
Right?
- [80:38]
B
So anyway, and it wasn't.
- [80:39]
A
It was more than a few people there, bro.
- [80:41]
B
There, bro. This is a massive church. I'm not. Bro. It's a massive church. We can talk offline. So anyway, Ouch. Philip and I left that church feeling the same exact thing like this is. And so we just stay connected now. We planted a year before they did. And so he always tells a story. He's like, man, we got started, you know? Victory 2019. Like, the. The. The birth of that came from watching this church called Neckhead's Church in Greater Boston. And they were leading us and discipling us from afar. When Covid hit. When Covid hit, like, again, I'm. I'm going everywhere telling everybody that Philip Mitchell is the greatest preacher in America. He's calling me like, bro, can you help us with our video? Can you help us with videos and lighting and also, I mean, bro, it's wild stuff. In hindsight, it's just comical. And here's the thing that makes it the funniest to me. All right, you need to know this about me. So I grew up, I didn't have a lot. I get saved. I become a pastor. I get. And I find myself in these rooms with white evangelicals all over the place. And I'm like, bro, where's my people at? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like, I'm a Hooper. I've been in, like, I feel way more comfortable in this podcast than like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I just, I'm like, where are my people? Like, I need to bring my people. Yeah, with me. Like. And so there's this one guy, guy led me to the Lord. I was trying to get him. Like, he was playing a church. I was like, trying to get. He's a black dude, right? Six, four black dude. Like, just, just. Yeah, just has some hood in him, but cultural, new to scriptures. And I'm like, bro, you need to be in these rooms. Dude, you better than 95% of these guys. Like, as far as, like, and. But it was so easy for me as a white man to walk into these rooms and feel comfortable and to be accepted and to not be side eyed and to not. To have access.
- [82:45]
A
Wait, so you're saying there's white privilege in the church realm?
- [82:48]
B
Bro, we can do that. Okay? We go wherever you want, right? But what was. What's so crazy to me is so I had felt since I became a church planter 15 years ago, I have felt this burden of like, yo, if I find a brother that I'm like connected with, yo, I'm bringing him with me. Like, whatever that looks like, whoever that is, it like. And so Philip was one of those guys where I was like, bro, you gotta come to this with me. People need to know you. I'm telling everybody about Philip, you know, studies, Victory Church in Atlanta, all this stuff. And you know, Philip had come to me, come with me on a couple things. He'd come and he's preached at my church before, before anybody knew he was. We did a Covid collaboration back in the day, before collabs were a thing. Like, I was preaching to his church and he would tune, he would like video us in and he would do the same for my church. Like and we were like, Philip and I have been like, friends, not ministry friends, friends. You know what I'm saying? And his world is so different now. And people don't understand what that must be like. I don't even understand what that must be like. But my point is this. It's so funny. So he calls me and he's like, bro, I want you to come and do our. Do my 13. I think it was 12 or 13 year. Maybe it was 12 year anniversary for 28, 19. Come and do it. I did their eight year right when it was Victory during COVID He's like, come and do it for a minute. All right, bet I'm coming. And. And I go. And he's like, bro, but before, I just need you to know, like, there's some stuff going on at our church right now. And I'm like, looking online. I'm like, bro, you baptized a thousand people last weekend. What in the world is happening? He's like, bro, I know, it's crazy right now. He's like, this is. It's just nuts. People waiting outside, waiting in lines to get into church. This is like the very beginning. Beginning, right? Everything going forward, everything's coming, everything's happening, right? And. And I'm like, bro, cool. You know, like, that's cool. But I don't know, like, you know, I'm all the way in Boston doing my own thing. Like, you know, my boy's church is blowing up. Praise God.
- [84:46]
A
Yes.
- [84:47]
B
So I go, go to 2819. I, you know, I'm like, bro, this is kind of crazy, but I'm all in the back.
- [84:54]
A
Yes.
- [84:55]
B
Like, you know, you bring you through in the back. I'm in the back green room and I'm hanging out in the back. And first off, by the way, you talk about a ministry that's been birthed out of prayer. He was like, bro, you cool if they come in and pray for you? I was like, bro, yeah, like, of course. Come and pray for me. He's like, I just. He shuts the door. It's just me and him. He's like, I just need you to know, like, they. They pray. And I'm like, okay. But now I'm nervous. What do you mean? And bro, when I tell you, it was like. And it was like an African tribe, bro, came out of like some hallway in a school and was blessing me. And I, bro, I'm telling you, they walked in the room and I immediately began to weep. I'm telling. I'm talking about I. Shekinah, Glory the moment they walked in that room, I'm crying and weeping. Somebody's grabbing my hand, tapping my hand. I got oil on my neck. I'm like, that's. You slapped me a little hard. I'll get oil on my hands. I'm like, I'm annoyed. I am weeping there. Everybody else is weeping. Like. You talk about a church that was birthed out of prayer.
- [85:58]
A
Wow.
- [85:59]
B
You know, people, like, people are like, oh, you know, this is successful ministry. It's all the people. I'm like, no, you got to see what goes on in the green room. That's successful ministry.
- [86:08]
A
Come on, man.
- [86:08]
B
Do you know what I'm saying?
- [86:09]
A
Come on.
- [86:09]
B
So anyway, what's so funny is so I get up and I preach. I don't know. I think I did a decent job. Okay. It was, it was. It was fine. It was good. I. I was spending years trying to get everybody to know Philip Mitchell. When I tell you, within one day, all of a sudden, Matt Chuning's name is known by thousands of people. I didn't know that there was 30,000 people on a live stream each service, all three of them. I'm like, this is how funny the Lord is. This is how funny the Lord is. Here's a white privileged boy trying to do his best to make sure my brothers who I know get seen. And the Lord is like, matt, well done. Let me flip it on you. You're going to be able to do a podcast with Ezekiel, most likely. Because I'm the only white boy that's ever been preaching at 28:19. I'm forever known as that guy. I forever know that. I go everywhere now. And people, bro, you that white boy that preached at 28:19? I don't even have a name. My name is white boy who preached at 28:19. That is my name. Just everybody knows. You want to know, you can check me out at Whiteboy who preached@2819.com. That's who I gotta. I gotta go ahead and get that. That's gonna be my new URL. That's all you know. You know what I'm saying? And so. But again.
- [87:37]
A
But I got the backstory now.
- [87:38]
B
Yeah, that's the backstory. And that's. And that's the backstory. Philip called me. He's like, bro, you went from like 3,000 followers on Instagram to like 10,000 in like the last 18 hours. I was like, bro, I know it's crazy out there. He's like, you better start getting your, your Instagram game up. You know, it's so funny. But. But even being at 28, 19, that was around the same season of life where the Lord began to. Was. Was ringing me, and. And his favor was beginning to come upon me in a unique way. But it wasn't about preaching and it wasn't about influence.
- [88:18]
A
It was.
- [88:18]
B
His favorable hand was upon me to wring the crap out of me that I didn't know was in there. And it was the beginning of that. And that's where the power comes from.
- [88:29]
A
You keep saying that's where the power comes from. And now I'm starting to analyze my life and how things have been, how God has done things in just your life and Philip's life. And I'm just like, wow. And some people. I think some people look at things and then in their own understanding, they're like, well, of course people are coming. Look at how he preaches. Look at the lighting. Look at this and look at that and look at this. And one plus one equals two. This is the formula. When I tell you what you just exposed, man, it's what the scriptures did to the heart.
- [89:09]
B
It is.
- [89:10]
A
It's. How is it successful? Or did God successfully destroy something in that person?
- [89:18]
B
So I. I haven't thought about this until right this very moment, but I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, have you ever wondered. So the Holy Spirit falls on the day of Pentecost. There's 120 people in an upper room. Have you ever wondered why Peter? Why is Peter the one who's preaching and 3,000 souls come into the kingdom that day? Why. Why was it Peter? And you start thinking about the story of Peter. He is the one who denied him to his face.
- [89:56]
A
Come on. Wow.
- [89:57]
B
And then. And then on the shore, you know, in. At the end of the book of John, he's like, do you love me? He's like, lord, you. You know what's so interesting about that, too, is like, he used the word in the Greek. Agape. Agape, phileo. It's like, do you love me? He's like, lord, you. You know I love you. He's like, lord, he's like, do you love me? And it's agape, love, unconditional. Lord, you know I love you. Do you love me? And he uses the last name friendship. Do you love me?
- [90:32]
A
Friendship?
- [90:33]
B
He, like, comes down to his level. He's like, this is where I know we're at right now. I know you don't love me unconditionally right now, but I want you to know that's okay, go feed my sheep, go feed my lambs, go. And you think of the work that Jesus was doing in just that story in Peter. And then 120 get filled with the Spirit and it's Peter who gets up and he's like, let me tell you who the Christ is.
- [91:05]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [91:07]
B
And I think Peter was the one that was walking in the unique power. I mean, it's conjecture. I'm not, I'm not trying to build a sermon on that. I'm just saying there's something there. And I think for us, like, the more God spend. You spend time with the Lord and you let him get in there and you can't do that alone. This isn't time with Jesus. If you are blind, which means you cannot see, which means you need other brothers and sisters and people around you to help you see. They have the spirit of God in them and God is going to use them. Like the. There's no such thing as a personal, private relationship with God. You could have a personal relationship with God. It is public.
- [91:49]
A
Yes.
- [91:50]
C
Right.
- [91:50]
B
You need that. Like there, there's. You need one another. There's 59 or 52. One another's in the scripture for a reason. Because we need one another. Like, so that work is not going to be done alone. You need. You need others around you. But, man, that's where, that's where the power is going to come from, is when you're willing to do that level of deep work. Like, I know you could stop masturbating and jacking off before you go to sleep. And I know you can stop watching porn. And I know you can stop smoking weed. Like, I know you could do all that stuff. Come on, man, you could do all that. Like, like we could do that stuff. It's that deeper stuff that you don't even know if you're watching this. You don't even know it's in there. You haven't even. You haven't even begun to be honest enough with yourself. And I'm not, I'm not throwing shade at you. Like, you have been so blind. Isn't it interesting that even Jesus at times is like, I give them eyes that can't see. He talks about that. Yes. In parables. He's like, I'm speaking this way because I don't want him to see yet. That's crazy. So it's like the Lord hasn't even allowed you to even consider some of the things that are in you yet. And until you do the deep work to beg the Lord, to like, this is why David is like, please search me, search me. Like, let me know if there's any wicked ways in me. Please, Lord. And that's where I'm at in my life right now. I'm like, there's no, there's no, like engrossed, like, public, like, there's nothing in my, in my life right now that's going to pull me out of ministry. Do you know what I'm saying? But, yo, there's stuff.
- [93:25]
A
There's stuff that's in you right now that the Lord hasn't even allowed you to consider yet. You have.
- [93:32]
B
It would kill me. Oh, bro. If the Lord, like, think about, think about right now, your own life. If the Lord, like, think about 10 years ago in your own world, right. You're dealing with stuff now that you weren't dealing with 10 years ago. Yes. Because you had a whole lot of other stuff that you were dealing with. Think about if he showed it all to you at one time. Think about this. The despair. You would not want to live. You didn't. You would not want to live. If God, this is God's grace, that he's not letting you see it. It's not like he's being mean, like, I'm going to hide it from you. He's like, if I let you see all of the, like, the deep rooted stuff, you would not want to live. You could not handle it. It is my grace, it's my mercy that's not letting you see that. Not yet. Not yet. We'll get there.
- [94:20]
A
You like, you got me stuck on Peter. I'm about to go do a whole deep dive.
- [94:24]
B
I feel like I gotta do a Bible study, right?
- [94:25]
A
I'm about to do a deep dive on Peter. Because it's almost. If you really paid attention to the story of Peter, for Jesus to even exchange words and commission him to feed his sheep, you would think that, like Jesus, as far as decision making. No, no, seriously, like, you knew he was going to deny you. He did it.
- [94:48]
B
Yeah.
- [94:49]
A
You told him he was. He then did it. He had an opportunity to walk on water. That man. He still sank.
- [94:56]
B
Sank. You told me what he was gonna
- [94:58]
A
do to go to the cross. He said, don't do it. You cast the devil out.
- [95:01]
B
He's like, don't wash my feet. Who do you think you are?
- [95:05]
A
You pull out a knife, you put out a sword, you cut ears off. And that's the one.
- [95:10]
B
That's the one. That's the one.
- [95:13]
C
He's
- [95:15]
A
on that day. You use him. Yeah, that's the one that's apostle.
- [95:21]
B
Yeah.
- [95:22]
A
And so it's like. It makes us kind of like we have to redefine what qualification even really means in the eyes of Jesus.
- [95:33]
B
Yes. We wouldn't let Peter pastor our churches. Like, we wouldn't. You ain't going to Peter's church, bro. You're like, yo, dude, cut a dude's ear off. You know what I'm saying? Deny Jesus. Like, you ain't going to his church. Church. You're not going to his church. And people are like, well, that was before the Holy Spirit. And you're like, come on, what are we doing? You wouldn't go to his church even if it wasn't before the Holy Spirit. Think about it. You got. You're going to that guy's church who was, like, known as the guy who. You know, like, all of the stories, bro. Like, violent. Like, dude got violent, like, literally with Jesus. And you're like, that. The point of Peter's story isn't God, the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact, what's so interesting is Jesus makes statements like, you don't need the Holy Spirit when I'm with you. When he's walking with his disciples, he's like, I. He didn't even start telling them about the Holy Spirit till later on. He's like, you're going to need the Holy Spirit when I depart. Yeah, Right. So it's like, well, it was before the Holy Spirit.
- [96:33]
C
Yeah.
- [96:33]
B
He had Jesus in the flesh. Like, come on. In the flesh? Like, what are you talking about? Like, he had an empowerment by walking with Jesus. That is. I mean, I want to be careful theologically here, but I would say is as powerful or if not more powerful than you have with God, the Holy Spirit in you. He was with Jesus. Jesus sent him out. Was like, go cast out demons. Like, most of y' all watching this ain't never cast a demon out in your life.
- [96:58]
A
Come on.
- [96:59]
B
And you have the Holy Spirit. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, come on.
- [97:05]
A
I think the only credit I can give to Peter, and I don't even think how much credit this is when Jesus said, hey, you guys gotta eat my flesh and drink my blood. I believe he was talking to Peter when he said, are you also gonna lead me? And Peter says something interesting.
- [97:21]
B
I.
- [97:22]
A
He just said, where will I go?
- [97:26]
B
Yeah.
- [97:27]
A
Like, to me, it brings tears to my eyes because it sounds a grown man. Like, I. I have nothing.
- [97:35]
B
Right?
- [97:36]
A
I don't have knowledge. I don't have a way. Like, dude, you were A professional fisherman. And then outside of Jesus, now it's where will I go? And I think the state of heart, I think that's all Jesus couldn't trust. If I know nothing, is that you are lost without me.
- [97:54]
B
And you know it and you know it, and you know it and you know, think about, think about all that Peter already went through. And then he gets to. And he, like, gets to the end and the Lord is like, so are you still in? You gonna feed my sheep? And do you love me? And think about, like, the deep pain that Peter's feeling. He's like, you know, I love you, but I don't even know if I love you because I've been saying I love you all this time and look how dumb I am. And that's how I feel. I'm like, you know I love you, right? Like, but you know better or not whether or not I love you. Like, I think I love you.
- [98:28]
A
Come on.
- [98:29]
B
I think I love you. But, like, when I look at me and the more I like, walk with you, the more I'm like, do I really love you? And the Lord's like, yeah, you do. Just by basically that, go feed my sheep, now you're qualified.
- [98:42]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [98:44]
B
It's crazy. So different than, like, you know, your church planting assessment that's like giving you a 1 to 10 on, like, your love for the gospel. And you're like, you know, or how good you can preach or, you know, can you. Are you complementarian, egalitarian? What's your, you know, what's your view on the end times? Like, what are we talking about here? And I think that's part of the reason why we have such a revival going on right now in. In America. There is a big. There's a move of God in America right now. And I think a lot of it has to do with we have just begun to see the wickedness of culture which flows from the heart. And we're like, something's broken and wrong in us. We need something more. And so people are coming to Christ by the droves because they're realizing, like, I'm jacked up. And so, yeah, crazy.
- [99:46]
A
In the age of knowledge, it should provide some level of security. An age where we have everything at our fingertips. It seems like people, all people are able to grasp is that they don't know they don't have it. And I think this time, if you're looking at the stats, man, more Bibles have been purchased than ever before. I think people are starting to recognize, I guess revival Necessitates some level of desperation. I need to know that I need something. And I think this is where sometimes even our schools, theology schools, might fail you into thinking that I got it. It's coming apart. I got. I got something. And I think the answer has to be that emptying of oneself. And I think sometimes we don't even have the power to empty ourselves. I think things, conditions, questions that we can't answer, things that break pushes us to the point where we realize we need something. The Bible talks about the prodigal son said he came to himself. But how did he come to himself at the point where he reached famine? He was eating in a pig's pen.
- [101:05]
B
Yes.
- [101:06]
A
And that was synonymous with coming to himself. So I would say, and then at the end, he told his brother, hey, this. Your brother was dead and is now alive.
- [101:16]
B
Yes.
- [101:16]
A
Which he just. He defined revival.
- [101:18]
B
Yes.
- [101:19]
A
Coming back to the Father from the place of recognizing that there are no answers.
- [101:26]
B
None.
- [101:27]
A
Lest I go back to my Father. I don't care how I go back to him. I just gotta. I gotta get to where he is.
- [101:34]
B
Yes.
- [101:37]
A
And I don't think, like, I don't think we can come to revival unless we first. The body of Christ that know him. This is revival is coming back to life until we come back to him in that place of recognizing. Look, we don't got our church culture, the way we do service, the way we preach, the way we teach, the way we loving our wives, the way we're teaching our kids, the way we're handling the world. We don't got it down.
- [102:04]
B
Yes.
- [102:06]
A
Completely destitute prodigal son. Like, I don't care how much degrees you got. We're all prodigal son level, Father. Like, I don't got answers.
- [102:20]
B
And I think this is why you're seeing the church walk in a unique power right now. Because we've gotten to the place where we're no longer fighting over the stupid things that we used to fight about. Like, I'm seeing such a. Like, all right, I'm complementarian in my theology. Right. I believe that, you know, men are called to lead in the home and in the church. Yes. But I think true complementarianism is men are also as they lead, meant to make sure that they're elevating the women around them so that they would be complimented. And so you got this whole move of, like, women can't ever be in a pulpit and women can't ever teach and da, da, da, da, da. All stuff. And they use verses and they hold the line on, like, this is what that verse says. And it's like, why are we fighting over this? Because there's been arguments over this for thousands of years at this point. Right. And I think right now it's like, we're.
- [103:21]
A
We've.
- [103:21]
B
We've begun. The church, in a healthy way, has begun to stop fighting the things that we don't need to fight anymore, and we're beginning to see the real sin that's in us, and that's what we're going after right now. And I think that's. And now you're sensing, like, a move of God because we're, like, not fighting these ancillary things out there. And I'm not saying, like, those things are ancillary, but we're fighting the right battles, it seems, right now.
- [103:51]
A
Come on.
- [103:51]
B
I think we're fighting the right battle. And when. Because we're doing that, there's a massive move of God.
- [103:57]
A
So. So what? So what. What are you seeing amongst. Amongst the young people? Because, like you said, what I'm seeing, at least on this platform, is God is raising up voices. And I think the word that. That kind of aligns with what you're saying is indiscriminately, like, things that were necessary, that would have been necessary to elevate a voice on a platform that supposedly is growing is, hey, somebody, they gotta have followers. They gotta be known in these spaces. And at this point, it's almost like God is like, I don't care what
- [104:29]
B
y' all talking about.
- [104:30]
A
Like, I'm gonna do what I want to do right now.
- [104:33]
B
Yeah.
- [104:34]
A
And I. I feel like this generation. This generation of people. I think we're pro Millennials.
- [104:40]
B
Yeah.
- [104:41]
A
Have gotten to the point where we. We have to not care about the stuff the generations prior cared about. Because of the urgency of the season.
- [104:50]
B
Yep.
- [104:51]
A
And because the season is so urgent. Like, God is using the unlikely.
- [104:56]
B
Yeah.
- [104:57]
A
God is using, in some senses, the unpolished.
- [105:01]
B
Yeah.
- [105:01]
A
To reach the unpolished. Using the unlikely. To reach the unlikely. So that's what I'm seeing more of. I'm just like, man, it doesn't make sense how someone who is not known or someone who has been doing their thing. Yeah. Somehow is now blowing up, going hard, reaching many people. It's like God is like, yeah, that. That's actually me. So go ahead, man. What do you say?
- [105:25]
B
I just feel like that. You know my favorite verse in all Scriptures, Romans 12, 9. Right. Let love be genuine, abhor what's evil, and hold fast to what Is good. Yes, sir. All right. And I think they are this generation. I think our generation, and absolutely the generation right behind us is hungry for what is real.
- [105:52]
A
Come on, man.
- [105:53]
B
What is real? This is why your podcast is blowing up. I mean, this is. It is because we're not going to be polished. And I think the generation before us was very polished, right? And we were buying into that early on, and we were like, this don't work. This ain't working for me. Like, I'm too jacked up. I'm not polished. Right. And I think as we as our generation be, has begun to see that in ourselves and abhor it. Right? Bible says, let love be genuine.
- [106:32]
C
Yes.
- [106:34]
B
Abhor what's evil, not what's evil out there, what's evil in here, and cling to what is good. And what is good. That word, you know that word good, it could link directly back to the. The word known as for gospel, which is good news. Cling to the gospel is not cling to good, righteous works. It's cling to the good news of Christ. And so I think there's a element of this generation that is recognizing what the scriptures say is like, no, there's not one who does good and seek God. And they resonate with that in their experience. And so they don't want to listen to a guy who's trying to tell them that it's possible because it's not possible apart from Christ. And so they want to listen to guys like us who are like, yo, it's not possible, but God, But God, like, you know what I'm saying? It's not possible, but God, Come on. You know what I'm saying? Like, and he's returning soon. And so, like, let's get on. Let's. Let's figure this out together. And so those guys are like, people want to listen to those guys because it resonates with their experience and their experience. It's. It's not only experiential, it lines up with the scriptures.
- [107:32]
A
Come on, man.
- [107:33]
B
Right? And so it's like, it's like, that's what I see in this book. And the other thing is, like, you know, I think of Philip, there's a lot of others that are out there. Matt Chandler, Ed Newton. There's like a bunch of great pastors that are out there in this. In this world right now that are, like, really doing awesome, awesome things. But, like, they're all about the book, dude. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like. And I think kids now, even Kids, bro. They're like. Like, we have kids that come to my church. I've had, like, guest preachers come in at times, and they're like, wordsmiths can crush it. Like, super orator. Like, I don't even know how to say that word. Like. Like, in, like, an orator. Is that the right word? Okay, thank you. So, you know Jersey. Jersey educated. You know what I'm saying? So, like, wordsmith, anything. You know the phrase that pays.
- [108:16]
A
Yes.
- [108:16]
B
And it's like. And they're. They're crushing. And the older people love it. And the kids are like, yeah, but he didn't read the book.
- [108:24]
A
I love it.
- [108:25]
B
They're like, I need the book. Like, can you read? Is that what the book says? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, there's just a hunger. They're like, because the book resonates with my experience. And my experience is saying that, like, I'm pretty jacked up, and the book says I'm pretty jacked up. And so, like, point me to Jesus. Remind me. I'm jacked up and point me to Jesus. And that those guys who are taking off right now, that's who they are. And what's also crazy is there's some of the generation that was behind us who are like. I don't know if it's because they're like, oh, it works, or they're also like, no, this is what is right. And they're catching on.
- [108:56]
A
Yes.
- [108:57]
B
And so there's a movement in this, in the church in America right now where it's like, guys who used to be seeker sensitive or whatever, they're like, nah, we just need the book.
- [109:05]
A
Yo, I seen the shift, dog.
- [109:07]
B
Yeah, there's a shift in the shift.
- [109:09]
A
Like some folks. I just said something today. I was just like, you're, like, talking like that, right?
- [109:14]
B
Yeah, it's crazy. I love it.
- [109:16]
A
All right, let's go.
- [109:18]
B
It's so dope, but it also is like, he must be coming back soon, bro. The Lord is returning.
- [109:24]
A
I'm like, yo, like, people. That people would have coined something before prosperity, deviance, coming back, saying, look, I was wrong.
- [109:34]
B
So good, dude. I love it.
- [109:37]
A
All right, So I don't. I don't usurp so much of your time, man. What does. What is God putting on your heart? What has God? Because I always say God. A lot of times with certain speakers, they have the theme of their lives. So you could. You could. You could preach a million sermons, but we could pretty much summarize your life. In these things, like God use Matt to say these things on the earth. And it could be in two sentences. Yeah, but what is that theme right now for you? What is God opening your eyes to? What is God making heavy? Like, God always gives ministers a burden in different seasons. What does that burden look like for you?
- [110:15]
B
I mean, I think, honestly, I think we've talked about all of it. Yeah, man, I really do. The thing that I'm wrestling with right now is just I'm. I'm never. I never want to get to a place where I no longer am searching for what is in me that needs to come out and that God is going to do it in his time. Watchman Nee wrote a book years ago called the Release of the Spirit. And then since then it's been like, republished and there's a different name. But I remember reading it and the whole premise of the book is like, God uses broken men and women. And the hardest part about being a broken man and woman, man or woman, and this is so clear in the book, is you have no say over how and when that brokenness will come. You've got to just stay course and beg God to break you. And like, what a humbling place to be. But God opposes the proud and gives grace to humble. What a gracious place to be. To be. Like, there's stuff in me that needs to come out. Some of it I see. Some of it I don't see. If you let me see all of it, it would kill me. And you've been gracious to not let me see it all. But never get. Like, if you're watching this, right, first off, you're watching the best podcast on YouTube. Okay? So, but if you're watching, if you're watching this right now, man, my hope is that you would never, ever get content as a believer that you have ever arrived or you've ever gotten to, like, a healthy place. Like, I don't even know what we mean when we say these things or. The Bible never assumes that you're ever going to get mature in Christ. Like, the more mature you get, the more immature you recognize you are. Like, and so that doesn't mean you get content with being that person like you. You're never content to stay there. Just know that you are not where you want to be, but you will not be tomorrow where you currently are. Because God's promise is that he will grow you and sanctify you. But you've got to be staying the course, sitting in it, grieving over your own brokenness, asking The Lord to reveal it. So that's the stuff that's going on inside of me, bro, is like, I just want. Like, I would love to see my platform grow. I think that'd be awesome, because I think I have a good message to share. I want to tell more people about Jesus. The whole motto of my church, tell everybody about Jesus. Connect people to the church. That's it. So I would love to see, like, the platform grow in comparison to seeing God. Like, I thought about this the other day. Sorry, I know you got to go.
- [112:49]
C
Go.
- [112:50]
B
No, bro, I thought about this the other day. The amount of money I would literally pay. Like, I'm talking about, I take a loan out to know that some of these things I'm seeing in me, that I could rid it out and it would no longer be there. The millions of dollars that I would. I would figure out a way to try to go and get. To get it out of me. I would do it in a second. In a second. In a second. The Lord won't let me do it. And it's his goodness and it's his kindness and it's his grace to keep me close, you know, man, I wish I would do in a second, but Christ paid, so I didn't have to. So it's all good. He's going to do it in the end. Same way, bro. Thank you. I want to say thank you so much. Thank you so much.
- [113:35]
A
The revelation in this, I guess there's no neat bow on that. And that's the beauty of it. Like when we read John, chapter 15, and Jesus gives the illustration of him being the vine, and the Father has to, you know, deal with the branches accordingly. Right. This is a living organism, this vine. And he says, the branch that doesn't bear fruit, he cuts off, but the branch that bears fruit, he prunes. So the reward of bearing fruit.
- [114:09]
B
Yeah.
- [114:10]
A
Is this closeness. Yes. But a painful, consistent removing of that which impedes more growth. Right. But he never says there is an end to the process. Why? Because it's a living organism. So once fruit comes, the promise is more pruning comes. And as more pruning comes, more fruit comes. And as more fruit comes, more pruning comes. And I think sometimes when we say we want to be delivered, we want to be delivered from that.
- [114:52]
B
Yeah, bro. That's our next podcast, bro. That's so good. That is. We want to be delivered from the process of sanctification.
- [115:03]
A
Have a good night.
- [115:04]
B
Good night. Good night, bro. I love you, bro. You've. You've become you're like my new brother, bro. For real. This is real. This is real. This is real, brother.
- [115:14]
A
Seriously.
- [115:14]
B
Seriously.
- [115:15]
A
I want to say thank you. And when I say I already know how tonight is going to be and thanks a lot, I'm going to have some conversations with my wife, like, babe, I'm so sorry. No, like, real talk.
- [115:31]
B
Yeah.
- [115:31]
A
Because literally, the last tense argument was literally about intentions and. And all of that stuff. And I love what you just said at the. At the end. If I could just get those things out of me. And I guess in my perspective, I was like, well, this is what's right about me. Right? Yeah. And it's really having a proper perspective.
- [115:52]
B
A better way to say is, this is what's righteous about me. That's what's scary. This is. This is in myself what's righteous, which is self righteousness. It's so gross. I have it in me too, bro. So. So I mean to call you out on your own podcast, bro, but, like, it's in me too.
- [116:08]
A
You know what I'm saying?
- [116:08]
B
So we end it together.
- [116:11]
C
Dang.
- [116:11]
A
But, yeah, it's beautiful, right?
- [116:13]
B
It's beautiful.
- [116:15]
A
It's his grace.
- [116:16]
B
It's his grace. It's so good, man.
- [116:18]
A
I just want to say thank you. If you could pray for those that are watching. Yes, man. I love it, man. I love. I love. I love this. Because guess what? We all have the same problem and we all have the same solution, the same answer.
- [116:30]
B
100.
- [116:31]
A
And for everyone that's watching, there's someone that is in some desperate state when they need Jesus. But I don't ever want us to position ourselves in a way that we make people think that we need Jesus less than they do. So if you could pray for those that recognize they need him and those that don't realize they need him as much.
- [116:51]
B
Yes.
- [116:51]
A
If we could just. We're all in this.
- [116:53]
B
Let's do it.
- [116:54]
A
Come on. Let's do it.
- [116:55]
B
Lord, I thank you so much for your grace in my life. And the level of grace in which I needed was probably far more than anybody who's ever going to watch this thing. And, God, I pray for every viewer, God, I pray that they would have some sort of nugget that they've received not from the words of me or Ezekiel, but from your Word. That you would use this to speak life into your people, God, that they would. That they would not be who they are today, tomorrow. That you would use an episode like this to grow and mature and help us to take steps forward. This is what's so interesting. Lord, you sanctify us like sermon by sermon, word by word, verse by verse, podcast by podcast, you know, song by song. It's is the little things. And so this, this hour and 20 minute thing, or however long it is that we've been together, God, I pray, God, that you would use it in a mighty way to transform every listener. For those who don't know you yet and who are jumping onto this thing, God, I pray they put your trust in you. That they would know, that they know, that they know that they are loved by their creator, that Christ has come to pay for their sin and to extend new life. And they, they would receive you right now. And for those who are a part of the Church of Jesus Christ, the global capital C church, God, I pray that they would be encouraged in this, that they'd be made more wise in this and that they would be able to walk through seasons of life quicker because of the pains that we've shared and not have to, like, endure the craziness that we've had to endure. So use our stories to, to change the stories of others. And so we know that you do it. We know that you do it. You've been doing it since you left. And we await your return. It's in Christ's name. Amen.
- [118:46]
A
Amen. And amen. You know that we have to let people know where they can find you. So we're going to put, put everything in the description. Sure, you don't have a home church
- [118:55]
B
you're pastoring in greater Boston, but it's Danvers, Massachusetts. Church name is Netcast. Church is one word. N E T C A S T Net Cast Church. We are literally in the center of a mall. We never even got into that, which is crazy. Our church is directly in the center of a mall, right across from AMC movie theater, right down from Marshalls. It's like, it's crazy. People walk into church thinking that they're about to grab a coffee or, you know, drop something off at Marshalls and people are getting saved every weekend.
- [119:22]
A
We just Baptist should be the standard.
- [119:24]
B
It's. It is. It should be a Standard. We baptized 271 people in the greater Boston area, bro, this past weekend. Think about that. 271 people in an area that is considered the least reached region in the United States. Like, God's on the work, but he's doing this all across America. So it's not just at my church. Like, it's all across America.
- [119:42]
A
Been to Boston, bro.
- [119:43]
B
Bro. It's wild. So yes. Come visit if you're in the area. Come hang. Come chill, man. Come chill.
- [119:48]
A
Love, man. Thank. You're welcome back anytime, bro.
- [119:51]
B
Let's do it. This is my.
- [119:52]
A
I feel like you're my favorite bro.
- [119:54]
B
I love you for real. I don't say that to everybody. Thank you, brother.
- [119:58]
A
I appreciate you, man. You're welcome back. Your heart. I said it. I said it. And God, I said his heart was jumping out. I never even heard all of this. And look, man. Thank you so much, Mayor. God bless you, brother.
- [120:09]
B
God bless you too, man.
- [120:10]
C
Now, you might be asking, what is the gospel? The gospel is very simple. That you are a sinner and that you are on your way to hell. Without a shadow of a doubt, you were born in sin and the wrath of God abides on you. And you do not deserve to go there by way of your sin. But while you were still a sinner, God sent his. His son Jesus, who loved you and died for you as your substitutionary sacrifice, which means he died in your place so that you could live his life, which means he died for your sin. He was buried, and three days later, he resurrected from the dead. And if you would confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved thus. That's. That's out here. No, no, I'm talking about the real Jesus of the Bible. The eternal Son of God that became a man. God manifested in the flesh that became a man. And in 33 years, he died on the cross, providing redemption, buying us back, translating us out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his, dear sir. Which means he redeemed us back to God. He reconciled us, you back to God by way of his death on the cross. And so you're probably saying, how can I be saved? Very simple. All you have to do is repent of your sin. I'm not talking about 360, talking about 180. You turn. You turn from your sin. You believe in the gospel exclusively, just Jesus. I'm not talking about Jesus and Mary. I'm not talking about Jesus and Buddha. I'm not talking about Jesus and some other centralized figure. And I'm not even talking about Jesus and your spiritual father and destiny and all of that. No, no. There's only one way to heaven. Jesus said, I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. And nobody comes up to the Father except through me. Jesus is exclusively the only way. You want to know why he's the only way? Because he's not only the only way. He is the door to enter in. And the only way could get in is by way of repentance. You must repent and become born again. Why? Because only sons and daughters can become citizens in the kingdom. Outsiders can't come in. But Jesus died on that cross and he made the way open for you. And if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. I'm not talking about all this other stuff to get saved. No, no, no. Just believe. Believe in him the efficacy of Christ's work on the cross as the substitutionary sacrifice in exchange for your sin. Which means you give up your sin. You give it to him, he exchanges it and takes on your sin. Yes, but he gives you his righteousness. And then you are righteous and justified by faith in Jesus. And when you have just justification because of Jesus, now you have peace with God. You have peace with God. And watch this. And now he will no longer be just your God. He is now your heavenly Father through the person of His Son, Jesus. Why don't you pray that prayer right now? Just repeat after me. Say, lord, I believe that I am a sinner and that I deserve to go to hell. But God, you sent your son. Go ahead. Those of you that are watching, repeat what I mean saying. Say, God, you sent your son, Jesus Christ to die for my sin. He was buried. Three days later, he resurrected from the dead. I now confess you, Lord Jesus, as my Lord, as my Savior. Come into my heart, come into my life and wash me from my sin. And I'll say this. Say, holy Spirit, I surrender my life to you. Make me born again in Jesus, mighty name. My friend, if you said that prayer, whichever way you said that prayer, as long as you believe, confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and that he died on the cross for you. And three days later he resurrected and you repented and believe that message. The Bible says, whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. You are saved, my friend. Here's what I want you to do. There's going to be an email that's going to be put on the video right here. And I want you to write. I want you to write this channel and tell them that you accepted Christ as your Savior. And brother Ezekiel. And this, the administrative staff of this channel will help you find a local church in your area. They will point you in the right direction. But we need to hear from you. Say man of God and that broadcast. I know you guys are Talking about Dean and devils. But I ended up getting saved and I ended up renouncing all other gods.
- [124:58]
A
Yeah.
- [124:58]
C
Which means you got to renounce all other gods and believe. Exclusively on the Son of God. And welcome to the family of God.
- [125:09]
A
What's going on, family?
- [125:10]
B
It's Ezekiel.
- [125:11]
A
One of my greatest burdens for this channel is after the video. You've been impacted. You just got saved. You just got delivered. Now what? We developed something called Freedom Guide. Freedom Guide is our digital directory that gives you access to every resource that we have available. We have our video directory, and that's super useful because we have hundreds of videos across this channel, thousands of hours of powerful conversations. But where do you go when you're looking for that specific thing you're struggling with sexual sin. We have videos for that. You just got out of a church call. We have videos for that. Some of you are looking for books, courses from some of our past guests. We're making that available to you. And we're also populating those lists weekly. Many people are seeking for in person prayer, deliverance. We're making that available to you with this link. So go ahead and click Freedom Guide link. It's right there in the description. And you'll have access to all of this for free. All you have to do is join. Subscribe to that list, and we'll be continuing to push out that information on a weekly basis while you have a total directory of everything that we have to offer. And don't forget, anytime we have an event, anytime we're doing something special, anytime we're calling a fast, we want you to know about it. We'll be able to access you directly and keep you updated on the amazing things that we have to offer. Love you guys. Peace.