Escaping Jehovah’s Witness Abuse

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Escaping Jehovah’s Witness Abuse"

Title: We're All Insane
Host: Devorah Roloff
Episode: Escaping Jehovah’s Witness Abuse
Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction

In this deeply personal episode of "We're All Insane," host Devorah Roloff welcomes Caitlin, who bravely shares her harrowing journey of growing up within the Jehovah's Witnesses organization. Caitlin's narrative unveils the challenges, traumas, and eventual emancipation from a controlling religious environment that significantly impacted her mental health and personal relationships.

Caitlin's Upbringing in Jehovah’s Witnesses

Caitlin begins by describing her childhood within the Jehovah's Witnesses, a faith she grew up practicing alongside her grandparents and mother.

[00:56] Caitlin: "So my name is Caitlin and I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness in the organization with my grandparents and my mother."

She explains the regimented lifestyle, including regular meetings, Bible studies, and door-to-door service, which left little room for typical childhood experiences.

[02:52] Caitlin: "It was very regimented. So I would go to school five days a week, plus those meetings, plus the service arrangement, plus only association with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Early Signs of Doubt and Abuse

Caitlin recounts the first seeds of doubt planted in her young mind, particularly an incident involving a "no blood transfusion" card her father reacted strongly to when she was just six years old.

[05:55] Caitlin: "This was something that as a six year old, you don't know, you don't understand... it was a question for me to say, maybe not everything I'm being taught is real."

She highlights the psychological strain and lack of personal freedom, noting how the organization's teachings fostered fear rather than love.

[07:00] Caitlin: "Why are we teaching people to be so fearful? Why are we teaching people to not live life in the way that I thought that God should be taught, which is love."

Exposure to Family Abuse

Caitlin delves into the dark undercurrents of her family life, revealing stories of sexual abuse spanning three generations. These revelations came through her aunt, who was not a Jehovah's Witness but still part of the family.

[09:24] Caitlin: "There was a lot of sexual abuse in my family. It had to do with pedophilia and incest. And this went back three generations."

She shares traumatic experiences where her attempts to confront her grandmother and mother about these stories were dismissed, deepening her sense of isolation and confusion.

[10:21] Caitlin: "I confronted my grandmother and my mom about it. I said, she's telling me this story. I don't think it's appropriate... I was pretty devastated because I was conflicted."

Mental Health Struggles

The cumulative stress from her upbringing and family abuse led Caitlin to clinical depression and anxiety. Despite her mother's attempts to help through medical examinations and therapy, Caitlin felt misunderstood and unsupported.

[07:20] Caitlin: "I made the decision to reconnect with him. But there was never, like, a consistent relationship there."

Her mental health deteriorated further, culminating in episodes of psychosis during her twenties, leading to multiple hospitalizations where she faced both support and continued trauma.

[37:32] Caitlin: "This was something I needed. That's how bad it got. And I think a lot of people, they want to be diagnosed."

Breaking Free and Seeking Healing

Caitlin's path to healing involved distancing herself from toxic family members and rebuilding her support system through therapy, reliable friends, and eventually hosting her own space for recovery.

[75:00] Caitlin: "Now I can talk about it. And now I can help other people."

She emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and recognizing when relationships are detrimental to one's well-being.

[82:18] Caitlin: "Family is who you decided to be. Just because they're blood doesn't mean they're good people."

Finalizing Her Journey: Loss and Liberation

The episode reaches an emotional peak as Caitlin recounts the death of her mother from cancer, compounded by ongoing abuse from her stepfather. This period marked a definitive break from her past, allowing her to prioritize her mental health and autonomy.

[71:26] Host: "Wow."

[111:25] Host: "Yeah. And I just wanted to mention as well, you know, I think."

Caitlin shares the profound experience of her mother's final moments and the resilience she found in herself to cope with immense loss and betrayal.

[75:00] Caitlin: "Everything that I went through, I'm happy now because I have these realizations and these tools that I'll never go back."

Reflections and Insights

In the concluding segments, both Caitlin and Devorah reflect on the broader implications of Caitlin's story, touching on themes of mental health, the stigmatization of seeking help, and the importance of community support.

[100:03] Host: "And a couple of things. One thing that you mentioned that I wanted to touch on really quick..."

Caitlin discusses the distinction between religion and spirituality, advocating for a personalized connection with a higher power free from institutional control.

[114:31] Caitlin: "I think the teachings were important... but religion is like academic learning."

She underscores the necessity of self-compassion and the ongoing journey of healing, encouraging listeners to seek support without shame.

[117:07] Host: "No, we don't have control over others. And one more thing I wanted to mention as well..."

Notable Quotes

• Caitlin [05:55]: "Maybe not everything I'm being taught is real. Maybe it's not true."
• Caitlin [09:24]: "There was a lot of sexual abuse in my family. It had to do with pedophilia and incest."
• Caitlin [83:15]: "I will never hurt an animal or child."
• Host [100:03]: "Mental illness is very real... seeking help and getting help is never weak."

Conclusion

"Escaping Jehovah’s Witness Abuse" is a poignant episode that sheds light on the often-hidden struggles of individuals raised in restrictive religious environments. Caitlin's story serves as both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope, illustrating the power of self-discovery, resilience, and the importance of seeking support in the face of adversity. Through her honest and unfiltered storytelling, Caitlin not only shares her personal trauma but also extends a hand to others navigating similar paths toward healing and autonomy.

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For more stories like Caitlin's and to share your own experiences, visit WereAllInsanePodcast Google Form or email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

So my name is Caitlin and I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness in the organization with my grandparents and my mother. And I found it very difficult because a lot of the teachings in which I was learning were not necessarily what I agreed with. So I grew up in an environment where I would go to meetings on Sundays on Tuesdays, have Bible study at my house on Thursdays. And then there was also service, what I think a lot of people are familiar with. So Jehovah's Witnesses will go and they'll knock on people's doors.

[Host]

Right. That's all I really know about it.

[Caitlin]

So a lot of people are familiar with that because that's what they're kind of known for. And obviously that's the way that they would outreach to people. So the purpose is to inform people as to what the organization teaches. And there would be literature. So we would have like a brief discussion as to what that literature would involve and how to present that. Okay. I had a father who was. Was not a Jehovah's Witness and I really like to spend time with him. So I would be with him every other weekend. And I felt like I got to be a kid, so I got to celebrate holidays, my birthday at home. That was not the case.

[Host]

So your parents were not together or. They were.

[Caitlin]

They were together.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

They decided to raise me separately.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So to co parent.

[Host]

Got it.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. So as they were co parenting, they realized that it wasn't really going to work in terms of a relationship, but it could work to just raise me separately. And I would see my dad every other weekend.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

Eventually he got married and my Stepmom has always been amazing. She's always been very kind. Her family has always been very kind to me. I remember during like Halloween, I wasn't able to go trick or treating, so the kids would gather candy for me and then they would share with me.

[Host]

That's sweet.

[Caitlin]

So it was very nice because they knew I didn't have that opportunity at home to do the things that a lot of other kids were doing.

[Host]

So when you were at your mom's, what was life like there in comparison?

[Caitlin]

It was very regimented.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So I would go to school five days a week, plus those meetings, plus the service arrangement, plus only association with Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Host]

Wow.

[Caitlin]

Within the congregation. So there was no after school I can go and hang out with my friends. It was a very small congregation too, because it was in a small town.

[Host]

But you went to a normal public school.

[Caitlin]

Yes.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So Jehovah's Witnesses don't have like a separate schooling system. They're still integrated into society, but yet they try to, I guess, seclude themselves in certain ways.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

So that was kind of the environment.

[Host]

And then as far as the teachings go, what were you being taught? What were you learning? Like, what were the core values?

[Caitlin]

A lot of them were scripture based. And the Jehovah's Witness organization has their own Bible. So if I were to tell you certain scriptures, you may not be familiar with it because it wouldn't be the Bible that you would necessarily refer to.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

Or that other religions would prefer to would refer to. So it was their interpretation of Bible scriptures.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

And then there would be literature that would help teach those kinds of stories. So a lot of the things were past scenarios and how they apply now. So I think a lot of people are familiar with like Noah's Ark.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

That's a story that we would be taught. And the reason we were taught that story is to bring community together to survive Armageddon. So Armageddon would be the end of the world. And after that, people would either be resurrected who had passed away and now live on a paradise earth, or people would make it through that time and then they would be able to live forever. So that was the hope. I think in every religion they have some form of afterlife. Like people continuously live on, whether it be resurrection, whether it be reincarnation. This was theirs. There was no heaven in hell. So when you die, nothing happens to you until Armageddon, which nobody knows when that's going to be. But there would be signs. And the signs would be natural disasters and the fall of, like, politics.

[Host]

So I would go, like right now?

[Caitlin]

Yeah. So basically any event that currently happens.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

But it would be catastrophic. So it would be like the whole world would be under that kind of pressure at the same time. So I would go and see my dad every other weekend. He got married. And I had a little wallet, I think I was around 6 years old, and I'm showing him this little wallet and he goes, what is this card? Because it's the only card a six year old would have. And it's a no blood transfusion card. And he was very upset about this because he has split custody. Meaning any medical decisions that would be made should be made between my mom and my dad and possibly my stepmom as well. My stepmom was also involved and she was very adamant about making it known to me that it wasn't acceptable if I were to be unconscious and someone found this card to not give me medical attention that I would need to survive.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

And this was something that as a six year old, you don't know, you don't understand. Yeah, no. But I think it planted a seed. It was a question for me to say, maybe not everything I'm being taught is real. Maybe it's not true. And from there, that really did develop. I remember being very quiet. I wouldn't speak. I would be at home and I would just be listening at the Kingdom Hall. It was the same way. I'd be listening to these things and thinking, this doesn't make sense. Why are we teaching people to be so fearful? Why are we teaching people to not live life in the way that I thought that God should be taught, which is love. Like God should be something positive, not something that you have to live this certain life to be accepted by God, especially if God created us. So I would go to the meetings and I would not objectify out loud, but in my head, I think you can kind of tell I'm not paying attention. Yes. And I didn't want to go to meetings. I made it known, but it was an option for me. I still had to go on a regular basis at this point.

[Host]

Were you having a discussion with your mom at all about the fact that you were starting to question some of these teachings?

[Caitlin]

I don't think it was an outright conversation. I think it was more. She kind of knew I didn't want to be there. So the same way a kid would say, like, I have a tummy ache, I don't want to go to school, I'd be like, I'm just Really tired.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

And that was true because imagine you're going to school five days a week and then you have to come home, you have to get into what would be church like attire, and then you have to go to a meeting in the evening. Then you're getting home around 9pm and then you have to get up and go to school the next day again. So there wasn't a lot of time for sleep, for fun, for anything to really get away from that. And I think that was her indication. So she kind of kept an eye on me and she started taking me to the doctor to get physically examined on a regular basis, thinking there was something wrong with me. And I remember thinking, there is nothing wrong with me. Like, I just don't want to be here. And the doctor would say, she's fine, there's nothing wrong with her. Until my mom put me into therapy. And that's when I was diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety. And I felt like it was circumstantial. It was my environment. I didn't feel like my family loved me. I felt like they loved the idea of a child being raised in the organization and kind of that control, kind of factor of this is the life that we think is best for us. You're gonna have to live it. Not you're your own little soul, you're your own little person. Let's raise you to be independent, to be successful, to thrive, to be happy.

[Host]

And I think it doesn't really allow you to feel like you are your own person either. Like you're not able to figure out what you believe, what you like and enjoy. It's just, if you're this way, then we'll accept you and think you're the best type of thing.

[Caitlin]

Exactly, yes. And it came down to like, not just going to meetings, thoughts, but also the way that we dressed. You always wanted to present yourself well as a Jehovah's Witness. And then there were disturbing kind of stories that I would hear from a young age. There was a lot of sexual abuse in my family. It had to do with pedophilia and incest. And this went back three generations. So for me, they were really just stories. But it was my introduction to really what sex was, because nobody had explained anything to me.

[Host]

And who was telling you these stories or where were you hearing them from?

[Caitlin]

It started with my aunt who was raised in the religion, but she was not a Jehovah's Witness. So to me, it was not an organization thing. It wasn't something happening within the organization. It Was something happening within my family. And these stories were quite horrifying. And being a young person to hear these kind of things, I felt bad for my family. I was like, they're walking around with this shame and this. This guilt of experiences. They had no control over things that should never have happened to them. And for them to tell me it was like, this is obviously on their mind. It was never presented as a protective way. It was never like this happened to me. I hope it never happens to you. It was more like I was their therapist.

[Host]

Okay, and how old were you telling you?

[Caitlin]

I don't remember the first story that I heard.

[Host]

But you were still pretty young, right?

[Caitlin]

I wouldn't have been a teenager yet.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So I was still a pretty young person at that point in time. And these stories just kept coming. I kept hearing different stories of this person who would be like my grandmother's age, had molested somebody. Somebody had abused my mother in a vehicle, and my grandparents were in that vehicle at the same time. And I was thinking, how could you do that? How could you not protect your child? How could you not be there, physically be there, but not stop something like that? And she never told me who it was. But I always thought to myself, I obviously know who it is if she's not telling me. My aunt also told me a story about a family member who had molested her. And I confronted my grandmother and my mom about it. I said, she's telling me this story. I don't think it's appropriate. And they said they thought she was lying. And I remember saying to them, why would somebody lie about that? Why would somebody make up this story? That doesn't make sense to me? And they said, she lies about a lot of things. And I was pretty devastated because I was conflicted. Is she lying about this? Why would she do that to me? And why wouldn't they believe her like she was a child at this point in time? So she told me that she told her father, who's my grandfather, who I live with, and when she told him, he said, tell me all the details. So she did. And after that, nothing happened. Authorities weren't contacted. She wasn't taken out of that environment, and this person was still very much around. It was hard for me to understand because she would say things like, I wish I had a better relationship with that person. And I was thinking, that could be true. You could have been hurt by somebody and wished that you had a different relationship with them. But it seemed odd to me to make that statement. And I think because my mom and my grandmother had told me maybe it wasn't true. This was like, well, maybe it isn't true because she said this. And as time went on, she told me more and more stories about herself. And then it kind of expanded to other people as well. And I really didn't know what to believe. But then I found out that my grandfather's position in the congregation was to report these things. So if they happened within the congregation, people could be disfellowshipped. And what that means is you're no longer in association with the congregation. So you can still come to the meetings, but you're not supposed to talk to anybody. So it would be like, I guess, a shunning. So someone could physically be there, but you're not supposed to speak to them. You're not supposed to really acknowledge them at all.

[Host]

And is that for a certain period of time or for all of time after that happens?

[Caitlin]

It would not be for a certain period of time that would be indicated. It would be until that person felt remorseful and prove that and then they could be reacted, reinstated. Okay, so the reason somebody can be disfellowshipped is they can gamble, do drugs, they can have sex outside of marriage. There could be a number of different things that they could have done. It was never announced why they were being disfellowshipped. It would just be said that they're disfellowshipped. And this would be on a Sunday or a Tuesday in our congregation. So everybody would now know this. The issue is you didn't know if this person had abused a child. You didn't know if this person had sexually abused an adult or if they had gambled. There was a range of things that it could have been. And yet nobody is telling this organization that is family based, right? So there's a lot of children there, There's a lot of people who feel protected because there are a lot of good people in the organization. And my grandfather, unfortunately made the decision to hide it.

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

He decided to hide that in the congregation. He also decided to hide that in his own family. So the process would have been somebody would report it to the elders in the congregation, who would only be older men. So there was no women who could work their way up in the hierarchy of the organization. So imagine sitting in a room with older men and they're asking you the details of abuse and your child. Obviously, that's not right. Obviously you shouldn't be doing that at all. On top of the fact that you're reporting this, you're writing up a report and you're not submitting it to authorities.

[Host]

Right. Nothing's being done.

[Caitlin]

Nothing. Except you could be disfellowshipped, which still doesn't mean that you don't have access to that child or to other children. You still very much do. So I remember hearing these stories, which were lawsuits. These were articles. There were documentaries about it. And the thing that I kept hearing is that people were being abused in either a bathtub or when they were bathing or they're made to bathe after, which would obviously be an indication that evidence would be destroyed. So if somebody did report it to authorities, there was no DNA evidence to be able to prove this. The only thing that they would have would be somebody admitting during this session with the elders that they did it, and that's why they'd be disfellowshipped.

[Host]

Would they ever take the children's word for it? Or was typically, were the children being dismissed if they ever came forward about something like this?

[Caitlin]

So the purpose was not even to take the child's word for it. It was to see if they would be disfellowshipped. Okay, so it wasn't supportive. It wasn't like counseling. It wasn't like therapy. The child could say something, but the rule was two people had to be a witness to the incident for it to move forward.

[Host]

That is crazy.

[Caitlin]

Yes. So it would be. Obviously two people would be the victim and the abuser. What other two people would there be?

[Host]

Exactly.

[Caitlin]

Unless there were multiple abusers. So there were Even elders that were caught in these scenarios and they actually questioned these children. So the abuser is now sitting in a room with other older men and questioning a child. And this is now being sent to the organization. So a congregation would be kind of like a school where you would have a principal. My grandfather was like the principal, so he would be overseeing that congregation. But then there's different sections. So this is a worldwide organization, but yet Canada functions a certain way, the States functions a certain way. All these different kinds of branches, I guess you can say, would have a report to somebody. So somebody knew what was happening in these congregations and knew that there was a common factor of what kind of abuse was happening and certain, I guess, strategies to cover it up. So certain ways to make sure that they weren't found.

[Host]

Close your eyes. Exhale.

[Caitlin]

Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Host]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in touch for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Caitlin]

And breathe.

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

1-800-Contacts.

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

And when I would hear these stories, I would think, this isn't just my family. This is the organization. And these people are in my house because my grandfather would invite them over and if they found God, they were okay. They could have been a murderer and they could stand up at an assembly and they can say to everybody, I used to murder people, but then I found God. So I'm okay. I don't remember anybody ever saying they hurt a child and then getting up on the platform and announcing that. But yet I knew that there was something wrong with these people. It was like they were disturbed. And this was my family. These are people who I'm wondering, is this still continuing? And then I found out it was. I had people in my generation that were being abused by Their mother and my grandmother found out about this, so she went to my grandfather and she said, I'm going to report this to authorities, doing the right thing. And he said, no, you're not. You're not going to do that because these children will be taken away and it'll bring shame upon the organization. And I remember thinking, wow, like this is your own family and you're not willing to stop it. Why? How could you possibly allow that to continue? You know that this happened to other family members going back three generations and it hasn't stopped. And now you have the opportunity to do something. You don't have to report it because you would be the one receiving the report anyways. All you have to do is just try to stop it. You can't guarantee it's going to stop, but you can try. So my grandmother would take me to their house and she would spend time with them. They're around my age. We would take them out, we would play. She would buy them groceries, she would clean their house. She would do whatever she could to try to make their life better. My grandfather never went. He would never go to the house. They would come to our house, but it was like he didn't even want to see the state in which they were living in. But yet they're being dressed up every Sunday. They weren't in the same congregation, so they could have had a different Tuesday, but they're being dressed up multiple times a week to present as Jehovah's Witnesses and to go to the Kingdom hall. And yet they're living this horrific life at home. So eventually I would say there was at least a year where my grandmother would go and see them every week and they would come to our house on a regular basis as well. My grandfather said, we can't financially support these kids. You're spending way too much money on them. My grandmother didn't work, nor did she really have a concept of money. She would just spend whatever she could on them because she had a really good heart. I would say, yeah, she wanted to help them. Yes. The mind wasn't there as to how do I sustain this. It's just, my grandfather makes money. I'm going to take that money, I'm going to spend it on these kids. When he said that to her, she really had no choice. It was not like she can go get a job and support these kids. It was kind of one or the other. So there was kind of a distance there. She was still going to see them, but there was no longer buying of food. Of taking them out as much, it was a lot less. And from what I understand, this never stopped. The abuse always continued. Obviously, they're older now, and they're adults, and they still speak to their mother, which I always thought was odd. I always thought, how do people in my family, how are they abused by someone? They grow up and they still go back. Like, why wouldn't you separate yourself?

[Host]

Yeah. Like, at least create some form of boundary. And I think the other thing, too, that I just wanted to mention was the fact that I think that a lot of these churches, and it doesn't even matter to their religion, but a lot of these people, they will cover up things like this that happen, thinking that it makes them look better. If nobody knows about it, or if people know about it, they just don't talk about it. Whereas, in my opinion, if somebody spoke up and did the right thing, that would look better. But for some reason, it's like people think that by keeping it quiet, it just make. It's a better reflection of the church and of the community and whatever else, which is just crazy.

[Caitlin]

And the truth came out. That's the thing, is there were people who did stand up. When they stood up, they left the religion. So there were elders that were being told, you have to follow this procedure. And they would say, no, I'm not doing that. If this was my child, I would not be okay with the treatment in which you're telling me to treat another child. And this was something that I thought was really great. But at the same time, when you're leaving, it's like you're leaving behind all these people when you were that one person to stand up. Right.

[Host]

It's like the good ones are just being filtered out.

[Caitlin]

Yes. And this was not something that I think was happening a whole lot. It was just something I paid attention to because it was something that I noticed from a young age. So it was, like, on my radar. Anytime article came up, it's obviously, it's known. You see it on the news, you see it on the Internet. You see it in different places. So eventually, these kids, they grew up, but they were never okay. I don't think you can be okay when a mother who is supposed to love and protect you has hurt you in such a vile way over and over again. I don't know how you ever heal from that kind of relationship, especially if you're still trying to maintain a relationship with that person.

[Host]

Mm.

[Caitlin]

This was a common factor. So my aunt, who is not a Jehovah's Witness at this Time. I never knew her to be a Jehovah's Witness, but she was raised in the organization, had asked for me to go and sleep at her house. I was spending a lot of time with my mom's side of the family because my dad had my half sister and now kind of moved on. I didn't see him anymore, he didn't call, I didn't have any contact. So that one like that every other weekend, that one kind of time where I felt like I got to be a kid and have fun was now just taken away. But I thought, I have my aunt, she'll let me have fun at her house. We'll have a good time. Prior to this, I had sprained my neck and I had like a neck brace on and then it was off, but I was still healing. So I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't physically like restrained or I didn't have to necessarily do anything except exercises on a regular basis. So I go to her house and it was just very uncomfortable because she has a younger son and everything she did was catered to him. But I didn't feel like I was having fun. I was like, I'm much older, I would rather be doing different things, but obviously we can't with a younger person here. And she got mad at me when I didn't say anything because she could tell I was bored. And she had said, I have done so much for you today. I can't believe that you're acting this way. And again, I'm a very quiet, respectful child, like never got in trouble, nothing ever happened. So for her to act like that, it was really her, it had nothing to do with me. Right at the end of the night, I had asked where I could sleep and she said, you can sleep on the couch. Or I had asked, can I sleep on the couch downstairs or can I sleep in the spare room? And she said, no, you have to sleep on the floor. And I remember thinking, why? And then she left the room and I slept on the floor. When I woke up in the morning, I couldn't physically move. I couldn't sit up, I couldn't turn over because my neck hurt. Like I had resprained my neck or re injured my neck. And she walked into the room, she saw me crying, laying on the floor, and she said, what's wrong with you? I said, my neck hurts, like I can't sit up. And she said, I'm not dealing with this, and walked out of the room. And I probably was around like 10 years old at this point in time. And my uncle comes into the room and he gently helps me up. And I remember overhearing him say, you need to take her to the hospital to get checked out. She has a sprained neck, and obviously she's re injured it like she can't move. My aunt decided to take me to do errands that day. So she didn't take me to get checked out. And when I returned home, she told me not to tell anybody. I was in excruciating pain. And this was really the beginning of psychological abuse for my aunt. She would call me and tell me I was a burden to my grandparents. She would call me and just put me down over and over again for no reason. And then she started asking me if I was ever raped. And I was thinking, why are you asking me this like I'm a kid? And she would ask in front of other people, and I would say, no, nothing ever happened to me. And one day she sat me down and she said, if anything ever happens to you, you have to tell me. And I remember thinking, this is not out of love. This is a really odd thing. You have told me these stories over and over again, and now you're assuming something has happened to me. I've been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety. So obviously I'm struggling. It doesn't have to be for the same reasons in which you are. It doesn't have to be because I experienced the same kind of traumatic experiences that you did. Why can't you just be there for me? And she was abusive to all her nieces and nephews. If we would be sitting in a chair and she walked in the room, get out of the chair. I want that chair. There's another chair you could sit in. But you're choosing to tell us to get up and we have to respect you. That's what you're telling us. Yet you're not kind to us and you're putting us down. Every one of my cousins had dealt with abuse, and she knew about it. And one day I confronted her. I said, how come you never reported this? If you told me you went through these experiences and you knew other people were being abused to her children, and you knew your own mother was trying to help and you didn't step in. What was the reason? And she said, I was very young. I said, you were not. You were married, you had a job for over a decade, and you had your own home. So that's not young. I was young. I didn't know what Child Protective Services Was I didn't know that this could even be reported. I didn't know any of this, any of the right ways in which it should have been handled, and yet you could have stopped it. And I remember she would just make up stories as to, well, I didn't know this, and I didn't know that. But you knew enough. And that was the point.

[Host]

Now, that was your mom's sister, right? Was your mom aware of how she was treating you guys?

[Caitlin]

No.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

My mom had no idea. My mom was always very loving, kind, timid, quiet. She was a very gentle person, and she didn't like her own sister. But she would be at her house because my grandparents were there.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So it wasn't like we would plan to interact with her. She just was there to see them.

[Host]

And do you think that you kids were nervous to tell anybody how she was treating you?

[Caitlin]

It was pretty obvious. Like, it would happen in front of other people, and then there would be like, a little whisper afterwards of kind of like another jab or dig. So I wouldn't say that they were oblivious to it. And I remember I would say it to my grandmother, like, she's treating us really poorly. And she would say, yeah, but she's just stressed at work, or.

[Host]

There was always an excuse.

[Caitlin]

Yes. There was always a reason as to why she was like that, and yet it was never a justifiable reason. Like, it was never a good answer. But this is the way she always was. She never was. She never had a good day. It wasn't like she had bad days. It was just every day was a bad day for her. So eventually I started kind of creating distance between my family. And I remember saying, from I don't want to go to meetings to I'm not going to meetings. And that resulted with me being kicked out of the house. So I had a key to the front door, and I can come inside. Then there's stairs upstairs. That's to, like, the main house. And then there's stairs downstairs to a basement that has a fireplace, a tv, some couches. That was the same place we had our Bible study once a week. And I would go upstairs, and that door is locked, and I don't have a key, so I have to go to the basement. And I don't know when the upstairs is going to be unlocked, which is where the kitchen is. There's a washroom up there, so I just have to sleep downstairs. And this would happen sporadically. I didn't know when this was going to happen. And every time it happened, My family was home, so they're literally on the other side of the door and just not opening it for me. Then I would go to school, and I would say, can you buy me, like, lunch food that I can pack and take to school, or can you give me lunch money? And the answer was, no, you're too picky. I would ask for new clothes, and it would be, no, we're not getting you new clothes. And I remember saying, like, why? There's no reason why I shouldn't have these things. These are basic human needs. And they would say, but if you go back to meetings, you could have whatever you want. And for me, that was an option.

[Host]

So how old were you when you decided to stop going to meetings?

[Caitlin]

I had voiced it. I would say from probably 10.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

And I would stop going occasionally around 14 was when I made the decision. I'm definitely not going anymore.

[Host]

And then when they started locking you out, did you have the option to live with your dad or no?

[Caitlin]

No. So I still didn't have contact with him at this point in time.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So from the age of 8 years old, I really didn't see him at all.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

When I was a little bit older, I made the decision to reconnect with him. But there was never, like, a consistent relationship there.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

It was just I would see him on some holidays. Sometimes I wouldn't see him for two years. Sometimes he would call, like, one, two times a year, and that was it. So I had called him and told him that this was happening, and he didn't believe me. At the same time, the only people I know are Jehovah's Witnesses. So when I'm telling people this is happening, they're like, no, your family's so great. Your grandfather is this position in the congregation, and your mom's a really great Jehovah's Witness and your grandmother. And I'm like, they're just not good people. You guys don't see it. You guys don't notice this. And I had a job from elementary school, so I was buying my own things. I was doing my own laundry. Like, I was taking care of myself as a child. And I felt like I was a parent to these people who are supposed to be parents to me.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

This continued for some time. And then I ended up having an episode of psychosis, which is like a break from reality. And I don't remember exactly what reality I broke from and what my thought process was. I remember I was sitting outside of my house and I called the police on myself and I said I felt like I was going to hurt myself or somebody else. So they came and they picked me up and they took me to the hospital. They didn't arrest me. They didn't take me to the station, just straight to the hospital. When I was there, I was put in a unit for mental health and addiction. So everybody I was around was dealing with, I would say addiction is also a form of mental health struggles. So it was really a mental health unit, but that's how it was labeled. And I remember feeling safe. I had a bed I can sleep in. I have a washroom I could use. I have access to food on a regular basis. I felt like I was okay there.

[Host]

Yeah. There was more stability.

[Caitlin]

Yes. And I'm young. Like, I've struggled for years of not knowing when I'm going to be able to get into my house, if I'm going to be kicked out of my house, if I'm going to be able to eat that day. I don't know. I live in a area that the seasons change. I don't know if I'm going to have a winter coat. Like, I don't know if I'm going to have any of the things that every child and human being needs yet. When I'm in this hospital, I have everything I need. And people would say, oh, I feel so bad that you had to go there. And I'd be like, I loved it there. And they would think, like, why would you love it in the hospital? Because I was safe. My family had come to see me, and my aunt looked at me and said, I knew you would end up here. And I remember thinking, you knew I would end up here because you were a contributing factor as to why I've ended up here. Like, how dare you say that?

[Host]

And how long were you there for?

[Caitlin]

More than a week.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So it wasn't an option for me to leave because I had called the police. And I guess the things that I had said, they create, like, a form. So you're not allowed to leave. You're not even allowed to go outside. You have to stay there.

[Host]

And what do you think led to that psychosis? Do you think it was just everything that was going on around you? Yeah.

[Caitlin]

I think I was so stressed, and I was always comparing what my family's trauma was to mine. I had dismissed that I was being treated badly because they had dealt with so many other circumstances that I just thought was worse.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

I was like, as children, these horrible things happen to you. Horrible things were happening to me. But yet it was nothing in comparison to what they had been through in my mind. So when I got out, nothing changed. I was still being kicked out of the house. I was on medication and at one point I was kicked out of the house, didn't have my medication. So my mom brought it to my school and she took me out of class to just give me the medication and tell me I needed to take it. And there was no love there. It was like, you have to take this, there's something wrong with you. I deep down knew there was nothing wrong with me. I was not diagnosed with anything that I felt like was self inflicted. It was my environment, it was my family. And nobody believed me. Nobody believed that I'm being kicked out, that I'm not being fed, that no one's buying me clothes, but yet they're not in my house. So how would they know that was or was not the scenario? Eventually I started making friends in high school who were not Jehovah's Witnesses because I was like, this is ridiculous, I need to live my life. And I was not at home, I didn't want to be there. So I come home, I would shower, I would grab clothes, I would go out. And obviously going out is not necessarily the healthiest environment. There's a lot of things around. And I found that I was with a lot of friends who were broken. They had also not experienced the best kind of home life. So we kind of came together. We would go to parties. There was just a lot of drugs, alcohol, different aspects of, I would say, like short term pleasure and not long term happiness. We just wanted to have fun. And then things started happening that weren't so fun. So there was this party that we're invited to and it's an exclusive party. So we're sent this date like a week before the party, but with no address. And then the day of we're sent the address. So we go there and somebody physically has to come and get us and bring us to this room. When we get up to the room, there's like security there and then there's a dj. There's drugs, alcohol, escorts. There's everything that people could want in that kind of environment. And I was comfortable. Like, I never thought, oh, this is bad. I was raised in an environment to be taught all these things are bad. But for me it was fine. I knew a lot of people there. There was this one guy that I was very uncomfortable with. Never spoken to him, never been in a vehicle with him, but just been around him. And I told my friends don't speak to him, don't even acknowledge him. If he comes up to you, just avoid him. And they were making fun of me and saying, you shouldn't say that because he has alopecia, which means he has no hair. Like, no eyebrows, no eyelashes, no hair on his body whatsoever. I said, I'm not making fun of his condition. I'm just simply saying he's disturbed and obviously he's not a good person. And they were saying, how would you know that? Like, how would you know he's a bad person, but you've never interacted with him. And I said, I could tell. So at one point, my friend kept hanging out with him, and her and I are supposed to get a taxi home together and split it. And I was like, I can't. I can't go anywhere with him. You want to hang out with him, I've told you, I'm not going to be involved. So I left with another friend, and she was very upset about this to the point where she stopped talking to me for a little bit. And then we saw each other again. But it was never like the friendship that we had. Originally, there was a news article that came out and I saw his face, and he had abducted a child and he had trafficked her for days in a nearby hotel and he had drugged her. And my friend was defending him on social media, saying he was such a nice guy, he would never do anything like that. There was no. Like, he was caught. There was no need to try to justify this.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And to me, the most disturbing part was there was a lot of people around us making money in ways that were not legal. He could have done the same thing. But yet you decided to do that. And not only did you decide to do that, but I don't think anybody being a normal human being knows a dosage to give a child to keep them unconscious for days, but yet keep them alive. I don't think any normal human being has connections to people who you can sell a child to throughout days. This would obviously have been, to me, something that he had done before, and this was the first time he was caught. And I'm thinking, you guys keep hanging out with these same people. Yes, he's in jail, so he's not there. But there's a group of people who you're still surrounding yourself with. I can't be around those people.

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

Exactly. Like you're justifying this behavior because he was nice. Obviously he's not nice. He's a very cruel person. And his.

[Host]

You were nice. He was nice to them because they weren't as tight. They were too old for him.

[Caitlin]

Yes. Like, he wanted certain things from certain people. He couldn't get it, so he decided to victimize an innocent being, which was always wrong to me. Yeah, hurting an animal, hurting a child, Those are the two things that were wrong. Even though I'm in an environment where a lot of people could have said a lot of things are wrong, I strongly felt as though this was the one thing that I could not be around. I never witnessed it. I had never seen this happen, but to hear that it had was disgusting.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Because how close was I to somebody who was doing this? What was happening on the other floors of this party?

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

Where were they going? What were they doing? So I remember disconnecting from some of these friends and having another friend group. And even though they were another friend group, it's a small town, we all still see each other, but I'm not necessarily hanging out with these same people like I was before. And I was sitting in the kitchen with my friend's mom and she turned to me and she said, you and my daughter can go to underground rave. You could go do after hours club. I don't care. I know my daughter is safe with you. And I said, of course. Like, we were friends. We take care of each other. We make sure that we're always good. And I. She had never been to a party with us. Like, why would she? But yet she knew the kind of person I was. She knew that I wasn't going to involve myself with the things that other people were and that now I had this friend group where none of these horrible things were happening. And I realized I was continuously around broken individuals who didn't want to heal. I was broken too. The guy was struggling myself, but I wanted to do better, and I couldn't continuously be around these people.

[Host]

Were you still on the medications at this point?

[Caitlin]

I believe so, but I was on different medication.

[Host]

Did you find that they were helping you like any of the depression or anxiety symptoms?

[Caitlin]

I think therapy was helping me more than anything. I think having somebody to talk to who, like, that's their job, to listen and to have that compassion was a lot more helpful than the medication. But the medication got me through.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

That's the thing is, I don't think. I don't think I would have been able to function at school if I had dealt with that anxiety without medication.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

And I don't think that I would have been able to function at school with the depression that I had. Especially clinical depression lasts for weeks, sometimes months. So it's not necessarily a state where you feel depressed for a day. There could have been times where maybe I didn't go to school because I was too depressed if I wasn't on medication. But I found the most helpful part was definitely having a really great therapist, which was not the first person I started speaking to. But gradually I found the right person to speak to for myself.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

And then my grandfather was diagnosed with a terminal illness. And when this happened, he didn't pass quickly. It was years where he was at home and just deteriorating. He went from being able to walk to having a walker to being bedridden for years. And this is, like, across the hall for me, so I can hear him coughing. He has an oxygen machine. Like, it was hard for me to be around because this is my grandfather. Yes, he has done some horrible things, but he's never hurt me.

[Host]

And it's scary to watch that, I think, with any family member. Especially when you're young and you've never seen something like that before, it can definitely be traumatic to watch and even hear, like, the noises and everything, because.

[Caitlin]

You never know when that person's gonna pass.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

And you also don't know how much pain they're in, and that's hard to watch. Is somebody just losing weight continuously withering away? Yes. And this is somebody who you always looked at as, like, a capable human being, and now they're just not. And then my mom got married, and I remember there was just so much happening at once. It was like, my grandfather is dying. My mom just got married. We're now moving out of this house that I was raised in to live with my mom and her husband. Her husband's name is Trevor and he didn't work. So she. My mom went to work and he would be home a lot of the time at this point, I think I was in college and I was also working part time, so my schedule wasn't like consistent. Sometimes I'd be at home and I would see him. He would be around and he would lie a lot. And I remember thinking, there's something disturbed about him. The same feeling I had with that guy at that party and the same feeling I had with certain people who were at my house when I was younger, I had with him. And he was doing a lot of things that he could have been disfellowshipped for by hiding it. So you're not supposed to smoke, like at all. He was smoking. He had said he was an alcoholic, but no longer drank. He was drinking. He was stealing from a nursing home that was like down the street from her house. And I was thinking like, you have no job, you're volunteering at this nursing home and you're stealing from these people.

[Host]

Now do you think your mom was aware of this stuff?

[Caitlin]

She was not.

[Host]

Okay?

[Caitlin]

She was not because she was working.

[Host]

So you saw it just when you weren't working and your schedule was kind of. Yeah, you have more time.

[Caitlin]

I would see it because I would come home and I remember there would be times where like you had to drive around and then you could get into the driveway. And sometimes it was a one lane driveway and there was a garage. So sometimes I would park in like visitors parking so my mom could go and park. And so there'd be times I would go around and I could see him in the garage smoking. And then by the time I got to the house, the door was closed and he was no longer in the garage. So I never had proof to say.

[Host]

To her because he was like sneaking around with this stuff.

[Caitlin]

Exactly. And she's busy, like she's working. She. He knows her schedule, so he knows not to do it when she's around. And my grandfather is also dying, so I didn't want to necessarily put this on her. And again, this is not defined as wrong to me. There's only one thing that's wrong and he's not doing it. So there wasn't really a need to say anything. And then my grandfather passed and we moved into another house. So it's now Trevor, my mom, myself and my grandmother. He also has a daughter who has A room at our house. She's not there. Like, she comes to visit every once in a while. And that's when things got a lot worse. He would do a lot of weird things. Weird being nobody knew. Like, why are you in the garage so much? Or you have this man cave and you set it up, but you tell nobody. Like, nobody can go in there. And then we found Confederate flag memorabilia that he had in this man cave. And my mom confronted him about it. He started doing drugs, but they were like drugstore drugs. They weren't like illegal drugs. They were things that you can buy, like cough medicine. And he would just drink a whole bottle, and then he would pass out. And I remember thinking, wow, this has escalated quite quickly. And it's almost like he's taking advantage of the fact that we're all in a vulnerable state because my grandfather just passed, and now we're in this house, and you're just like, he's the man.

[Host]

Of the family now.

[Caitlin]

Technically, yes. And that's very much what the organization taught, is the man is the lead of the house.

[Host]

Now, at this point, I know that you had stopped going to the meetings and everything, but did you still consider yourself as part of the. It's considered a religion, right? Kind of.

[Caitlin]

Or it is, yes.

[Host]

So would you still consider yourself at that time as part of the religion or no? No, not at all. Okay.

[Caitlin]

I never considered myself a part of the religion. Because you're not baptized as an infant.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

You have to make the decision to get baptized. And that decision would be that you would have certain teachings that you would have to absorb, and then you would be questioned about it, and you would have to pass that questioning to be eligible to be baptized.

[Host]

And what age does that usually happen at?

[Caitlin]

It wouldn't be a certain age, because everybody has a different, like, level of capability to be able to absorb that information and make that decision.

[Host]

Depends on when they're ready and do that.

[Caitlin]

I would say it would have to be probably 10 and over.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

Because I don't think Anyone younger than 10 years old would have been able to do that. Like, you wouldn't have been able to make that decision and go through that process. There were also parents who would tell their children, you're not ready, like, to make this decision. This is dedicating your life to God.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

And this is not dedicating your life to God in a way that other people do it. This is in a way that the organization teaches. So you have to be on board with that.

[Host]

And then do you feel like, there was a wedge between yourself and your mom and your grandma because you didn't consider yourself as part of the religion anymore, or did they kind of like, come to accept your decision?

[Caitlin]

Would you say this point? I'm an adult, and they needed me. So the dynamic changed, okay? Because my grandfather had passed away and I was there for them. It was now like, there was still a wedge. There was still. Why don't you come to this? Just one meeting. And there was still those little things. I don't think they ever fully accepted that I was my own person, yet they were more accepting, okay? Like, they couldn't kick me out of the house anymore. They couldn't do these things anymore. I was an adult, and I remember telling them, like, you. You tried, but this is not for me and I'm not going to come back. So this point, I would say they were nicer to me, but yet they are not completely on board with me not being a Jehovah's Witness, even though I never considered myself a Jehovah's Witness, and I never made that decision. I never got baptized, okay? So now Trevor has been doing these really disgusting things, and it's getting worse. And then I had still been an association with certain Jehovah's Witnesses because I grew up with them and I was never baptized, meaning I can never be disfellowshipped. So even though I did drugs, even though I could. Could have been disfellowship for that, I wasn't because I wasn't baptized.

[Host]

Ah, okay.

[Caitlin]

So I was one of the rare cases where we know Caitlyn is not necessarily doing all the right things, but yet we can still talk to her.

[Host]

Okay?

[Caitlin]

And I was at a gathering, and I remember this young girl, she was around my age, she had said to me, well, she was a woman at this point because we were all grown. And she was talking about the old congregation she was in. And I brought up Trevor's name, and her face immediately changed. And I remember being like, what do you have to say? And she was very, very hesitant. I would say it probably took 30 minutes for me to continuously come back and say, you need to tell me. I live with him. And she told me this story as to how he abused a child in his past congregation. And he was disfellowshipped for this because it's not announced why somebody is disfellowshipped. She knew this because she knew this child, okay? She was friends with this child. So this was how she was informed of the situation. And she didn't know he was reinstated. She didn't know he was married. He wasn't at this gathering. She didn't know he was a Jehovah's Witness. And this was how people got away with it is, you know, this organization is not going to report you to authorities. They're really not going to do much about these situations so you can continue doing what you're doing. And then people go after the organization to say, how dare you allow these people to do these things and not report them. The truth of the matter is it was the individual, it wasn't the organization. It was also the individuals who covered it up. It was not the entire organization. So for people to go after the organization, it didn't help because these people like nothing happened. A lot of times they were just paid out by the organization to say, just don't say anything, just stop talking about it. But these people are still there and they're still still not known as to what they had done. So I'd heard this story and at this point I shared this stuff with my mom and she called his ex wife and confirmed this story. And I remember thinking like, your ex wife didn't even say anything. Like your ex wife is a Jehovah's Witness and knows my mom. Your daughter comes to our house. You know that like we're in a household together and you're not, you're not letting us know that this had happened. And my mom was babysitting this little girl down the street. She would come to her house probably every weekend. And one day I came home and she's just there. And I remember I was looking around for someone thinking, why is this little girl just here by herself? This is really odd. I know who she is, but she shouldn't be alone. And I'm looking around and I finally go upstairs and I hear, hear my mom yelling at Trevor and saying, why would you ever need to be alone with her? And my heart dropped because I was thinking, what happened? So I just kind of listened. And he was trying to take her for a walk. He was trying to just take her to do something, just the two of them. He had nothing to do with this girl. Like this was just a little girl that my mom was looking after. After that, this girl never came back to her house. My mom wasn't going to take care of her. And to me, this was him trying to see what he could get away with again. Yeah, this hadn't stopped. This was just something that had happened. We now know my mom didn't necessarily believe it, even though his ex wife confirmed it. I don't think she wanted to face the fact that of who he really was. So now we know all this information about him. He goes to a funeral, he makes a racial slur at somebody who we had grown up with and we knew. And a number of people in the organization said, we're not going to associate with him. He wasn't disfellowshipped. He was still technically a Jehovah's Witness, but they would not be around him. He then said that he was going to move into a place, just my mom and him. And I had a very serious conversation with my mom. And I said, if you do this, I can't talk to you because I can't be around this. You are going to stay with him. That's up to you. But I can't. I can't be involved. I felt like I was living in this house to protect my mom. He became abusive to my mom and I didn't have proof of this. I just knew. I think when you know somebody, you can tell. And my mom had cancer, so she was very ill at this point in time. And you're abusing my mom physically or emotionally or both? I would say both.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

There would be times where they would argue and then they would just go into the room. And one time she said to me, I called his ex wife and asked if he had ever hit her. And my mom never said that he hit my mom, but this was like her way of. I feel like telling me, yeah, that he was abusing her physically and yet she didn't want to just outwardly say it. So she was kind of being discreet about it. And then I moved out. So I'm now living on my own and I have no contact with my mom. I know she can pass from cancer or from this abuse, but I couldn't be around it. I got to the point where I wanted to kill him. I hated him. I hated the person he was just alone. Never mind the person he was to my mom, the person that he was in the congregation. These were people I grew up with. Even though I didn't want to be Jehovah's Witness. These are still good people. There are still people in the organization that had nothing to do with what my family covered up, had nothing to do with what he was involved in. And I was just mortified that people didn't know this and that he was still able to be active in the organization. So it was about a year that went by and my mom left him and she started her own company because she had lost her job when she went on medical leave and she was in a lawsuit with this company. So there was a lot happening in that time. But it felt like finally she feels like she deserves a better life. So we reconnected. When we reconnected, she was still in remission, which means you're getting tests on a regular basis to kind of see where the cancer is at. So she was deemed cancer free. But remission is still to just check in and to make sure that you're really healing the way you should after treatment and after surgery. And there were inconclusive tests, meaning they knew something was wrong, but what is wrong is not known. So you have to take this test and you have to take that test. So she was going through that process and found out she had another form of cancer. And this form of cancer would require blood transfusions, which she's not going to take because she's a Jehovah's Witness. So within two months, my mom just declined very quickly. I had moved back home, and when I moved back home, I didn't move into the house. She was living in an apartment with Trevor. Now he had left and it was a one bedroom apartment. So I had moved into a family friend's house who was close to the area to be there for my mom while I was still working. She couldn't work. She really couldn't do a lot. I learned how to administer like shots for her. I would cook for her, I would bring her over groceries. So I was very tired because I'm working. I'm also taking care of my mom. There's a lot going on. And then within two months, she went into the hospital for the last time. And they said that she had about a week to live. And at this point in time, I couldn't really accept was like this happened so quickly. And I had had a conversation and said, just consider a blood transfusion. Like, just think about it, because you could live. You've done so much to this point to be able to be okay, why not keep going, right? And she said, no, it wasn't. That was the beginning and the end of the conversation. So she's in the hospital. My aunt is there being her sister. And I remember the way that she treated me in the hospital. Even though my whole life she was not good to me, I was still shocked the way that she would just treat me, shove me out of the way, tell me that I should have quit my job to take care of my Mom. And I said, but I have to provide for myself. Yeah, like, who's gonna provide for me? I don't have a father in my life. My mom is dying. What am I going to do if you guys aren't going to help me financially? Obviously, I need to keep working. So during this time, my mom was at the hospital. I was there. I took time off work. I was there consistently. And there was a point in time where she was in so much pain that she said, I just want to go in my sleep. So they administered some kind of machine that pumps in this drug on a regular basis to keep her unconscious so she's not in pain and she could just remain asleep. And this was, to me, the last time we were ever going to speak, because she's now just going to pass. She'll be conscious for that period of time, but she's going to pass. And I remember I wanted to go by my mom's bedside, and my aunt literally pushed me out of the way and just kind of monopolized the space and didn't allow me to even be close to my mom. And I didn't have the strength to fight it, to do anything. I just sat in the corner and remember looking at my mom thinking, this is it. Like, I'll never be able to speak to you again. So I'm sitting there, she's given this drug, and I say, guys, I haven't slept in days. Can everyone just leave? And I can sleep in this little bed. My mom's in her hospital bed in the room. There's nothing that's going to happen. Nobody needs to be in here, so I can just sleep and she can rest. So everybody left the room, and I don't know how long it was, but I never fell asleep. And I heard my mom say something. So I got up, and she's laying there, and she says, am I here to die? And I said, you're at the hospital. She said, I can't see anymore. And I didn't know what to do. I was just in shock. She's not supposed to be awake. She's supposed to be on this drug that's supposed to keep her asleep, and she's wide awake. So I called in the nurse, and when the nurse came in, my mom was asking questions about death. She was saying, is it going to hurt when I die? Am I going to scream when I'm cremated? It was like she was so worried about dying. And I remember thinking, she's not even close to being at peace. That's all I wanted for my mom after all she had been through. I just wanted her to be at peace. And that's what she wanted, too, obviously, to make that decision to pass in her sleep. So the nurse answered these questions very kindly, and. And she was there to support her. And then she told me that she's going to up the dosage so this shouldn't happen again. And at this point, I'm thinking, okay, like, she's going to pass now. And I actually have a moment to speak to her. And she had told me that she would be able to live if she was never with Trevor because of all the abuse. And this was the first time she ever told me that he had actually abused her. And I remember thinking, like, I knew it. I knew it all along. And I felt like I was protecting you, and I felt like I was there for you, but I couldn't save you. Like, I couldn't get you out of that situation. And I'm so happy you got out of the situation. But now it's only been months of you suffering from cancer, and now you're about to pass, and this is it. So I had gone to take a shower, and then I came back, and my aunt is in the room laughing and listening to music. And my mom is literally trying to sleep, and she's unconscious, so she can't physically wake up and do anything. But I'm thinking, after all of that, like, why would you be laughing? Why would you be listening to music? Like, just get out of the room. There's other places to go. So I asked everyone to get out, and I'm just going to read my mom a message that somebody had sent us who we knew when I was younger and who was always a very nice person. And I read her this message, and I'm holding her hand, and I can feel that she has, like, a grip, so I know she's still there. And I had experienced my grandfather passing and knew that the last thing to go was hearing. So I knew, like, she could still hear me. She's still there. And then I had also looked up how long it takes for someone to pass when their heart stops. So when your heart stops, what I read is that your brain functions for seven minutes. And I was like, okay, there's going to be seven minutes that I can be with her when she passes, where I can give her the peace. And that time came. So I read her this message. She opened her eyes, she said, I love you. And then she was gone.

[Host]

Wow.

[Caitlin]

And I was very worried that she was in pain. So I didn't cry. I just sat there and I called the nurse and I said, I want to make sure she's actually gone. Like, I want to make sure that there's nothing that she's suffering from anymore. And the nurse came in with another nurse, and they have to, like, take. Take out some of the IVs and like, prop her body up and there's a few things they had to do. And then she looked at me and she said, just take as much time as you want. And I said, I just need seven minutes. And then she left. She left the door partly opened, and within those seven minutes, my aunt came to the door and started yelling at me, why are you in there? You should get out. You didn't even care. And I remember I still haven't cried. Like, I'm just sitting there thinking, I just want my mom to go out in peace. That's it. And not knowing how to even react to this situation. So I went and I closed the door.

[Host]

Good for you.

[Caitlin]

We had a family friend who had to come in front of the door and stop her from physically coming in because closing the door wasn't enough. And she's still yelling and I can still hear her.

[Host]

It's like she just always wanted to cause some sort of chaos.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. My aunt was very attention seeking. So this very much aligned with the stories that she told when I was younger that who knows if they're true or not. This very much aligns with the way that she treated us as children, being her nieces and nephews, by saying, you have to respect me. Go and do this, go and do that. They were not even things that needed to be done. Like, you can go and sit somewhere else, you could do whatever you want to do. But again, in these situations, it was still shocking that this is somebody who is related to me, who is treating me like this.

[Host]

And even just as a person, like, how can you be that way? You know, it's like besides even being related, it's just read a room, you know, like in times of loss. It's just. That's why I said, I just feel like it. She craved chaos. And just. Even if it. For whatever reason. But she did.

[Caitlin]

She did. And I think that was displayed in many aspects of her life. And yet you can have excitement and chaos and it be positive.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

Like, you can go to an amusement park. Like you can go and do something.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

But the way she. She created it was, I would say, in a very vile manner.

[Host]

Yes.

[Caitlin]

Absolutely evil. Yes. It came from a place of spitefulness. It came from a place of. I'm hurting. You're gonna hurt, too.

[Host]

That's what I was gonna say. It's like she was angry inside, and.

[Caitlin]

She couldn't have been angry at us. We were just the easy victims because we're kids.

[Host]

She needed someone to take it out on.

[Caitlin]

Yes. And that's the one thing that I always hated about my family and about other people around is you're taking it on innocent people. And this is how I saw my mom. My mom was like an innocent person. She just had this shame, trauma, and guilt that she carried around with her, and that really diminished her potential to be the person who I think she could have been without that. It wasn't hers to carry around. But somebody like Trevor noticed that. And instead of being there and supporting her and loving her, he just took an opportunity to diminish her even more.

[Host]

Yeah. And use it against her.

[Caitlin]

And especially like, you have cancer and you're being abusive. How easy is that for you to do? If you were around someone who was able to. To react and to defend themselves, I don't think you would have done that. So at this point, I'm living with her friend.

[Host]

Your mom's friend?

[Caitlin]

My mom's friend who I've known my entire life. I was raised with her sons, and she's like a mother to me, like a second mother. And I think this is where I'm going to heal. Like, I'm going to be okay here. And she was going through her own issues, and her and my aunt never had a relationship. Like, they were never close.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

All of a sudden, they're on the phone all the time. Then my aunt gets her a job. And then this woman starts saying really cruel things to me. And I remember I just had, like, a blank stare. And this really upset her. She was saying these mean things to me, and I didn't react. But the truth is, I heard all these things before, and I knew they were coming from my aunt. I know that you're now friends with her, and I know my aunt is in your ear and she's telling you these things. So there is no reaction. I'm used to it at this point. And it got to the point even before my mom's funeral, she took me to Costco, and I didn't want to go. I was like, I don't want to go to Costco. I don't care to go to Costco. I don't need anything. Just let me stay at home. She said, no, you have to go. Out because you haven't done anything. You've just been at the house. So we go, she fills up a cart of stuff, and when we get to the the cash, she splits it and says, this is your stuff. And I was like, I didn't pick anything out, but okay, I'll pay for it. I don't care. So I paid for it. Then she took me to another place and told me I had to buy these things, so I paid for it. These things were in the house after my mom's funeral, meaning I did not buy them for my mom's funeral. I knew this, but I don't care. Amazon One Medical presents painful thoughts. I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 20, 23 minutes now.

[Host]

The automated voice has told me 47.

[Caitlin]

Times that my call is very important to them.

[Host]

Hmm.

[Caitlin]

I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all. With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment.

[Host]

Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Caitlin]

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock.

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

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[Host]

It, guaranteed, or your money back.

[Caitlin]

Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply. Like, I'll pay for these little things. It's a couple hundred dollars. It's not a big deal. But this started to be a regular basis where she would ask me for money. She was going through a divorce and told me one month that she needed an extra thousand dollars. And I said, okay, I'll give you $1,000. Because she told me she needed it for bills, for the house because her husband had left and he was paying for these things. She didn't know that I still spoke to her husband. He was like a father to me. He taught me how to ride a bike, tie my shoes. Like, he really stepped in when my father wasn't there and he was still paying for everything in the house. And I knew that. But when she said that to me, I'm in a state where I don't care. Like, I just trust everybody who's around me. I'm not speaking to my aunt. I trust this woman. I'm going to give her whatever she's asking me. And then she needed more money. And eventually I said no. Like, I'm in a good financial situation, but I can't just keep giving you money.

[Host]

No.

[Caitlin]

And why are you asking me for so much money? It doesn't make sense. For a time period when I was at her house, I didn't pay rent at all. And then I went to her and I was like, I would like to stay here. I'm going to pay you for being here. And then the rent went up, and that was all fine. It was the additional and the fact that you're asking for cash. I confronted her and I said, nobody pays cash to keep the lights on in the house or to pay for the water. There's no way that you're having someone come to the house and you're giving them a thousand dollars. So why are you asking me for cash? Why can't I just send you a transfer? And she went off on me. This kept happening to the point where one time she, like, had her phone on her chest and she was talking to me and made me just break down. And I was crying, and I was not somebody to react like that. And she was filming me while this was happening. And I can see her doing it. But I was thinking, this is obviously like, for my aunt. I don't know this, but who else are you going to send this to, Right? And why are you saying these things to you?

[Host]

And it's really a shame that someone that you viewed as like a second mother to you just kind of flipped like that. Like, it was just like a switch, it seems.

[Caitlin]

I think she was always like this, okay. And my impression of her was different because there was a distance.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

Like, I had never been around her. And she was also going through a divorce. So I think that the true self that she was really came out okay.

[Host]

Especially too probably with your aunt in her ear all the time.

[Caitlin]

Yes. This was my mom's best friend. So she had also lost her best friend.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

And now she has this woman who's come in and said, I'll give you a job and I'll be there for you, but you're gonna have some kind of, I guess, like, obligation to this person because they're helping you out. So I think that's where that came from. And this woman, I had to move out of her house. I had to leave. And when I did, I never spoke to her again.

[Host]

Yeah, I wouldn't either.

[Caitlin]

It was one of those situations where I was like, this Is not for me.

[Host]

No.

[Caitlin]

I had also stopped speaking to my aunt at this point. But when I moved out, my aunt still called me. And I would answer sometimes, thinking, maybe she's changed. Maybe she wants to actually be there for me. I always had this hope, and I think it was very naive for me to have, but this is my aunt. I lost my mom. I now lost this person who was like a second mom to me. I feel like I have nobody, and this woman is calling me, so I'm gonna answer.

[Host]

Yeah. And I think, too, it's like your inner child hopes that you can have that relationship with someone that is your blood.

[Caitlin]

Yes. I think the idea of family in my head was what I wanted to live, and I didn't want to face the reality of this. Blood is not family.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

Family is who you decided to be.

[Host]

And just because they're blood doesn't mean they're good people.

[Caitlin]

In my case, blood meant you weren't a good person. Like, that was just the common factor there.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

So there was a time where I was in my car, and I don't remember what I was doing, to be honest with you. Like, I. I have no idea what was happening. And my aunt called me, and I pulled up to this grocery store that I never went to. I never liked this grocery store. Like, every other grocery store I would go to, not this one. And as she was talking to me, I, like, zoned out. And then all of a sudden, everything broke, and I had another episode of psychosis. I don't know what she possibly could have said, but even just hearing her voice, I went into this grocery store. I, first of all got out of my car and started knocking on people's windows and got into a stranger's car and told them to just take me away. And this woman's like, get out of my car. Then I go into this grocery store, and I started yelling at people. I don't know what I was yelling. There were things that I knew afterwards because there were police reports, but I was yelling some really, like, awful things. And I was saying that all Jehovah's Witnesses are pedophiles. And I was yelling this into the store to the point where security. Security, like, pinned me to the ground and handcuffed me and then put his knee on my back until the police came. And I was bruised after that. So it wasn't like this was an easy scenario. This was a quite harsh kind of experience. And when the police came, they took me straight to the hospital.

[Host]

And how old were you this Time that it happened.

[Caitlin]

I was in my twenties at this point in time. Okay. So I was. I would say, in, like, my mid-20s. Yeah. So around my mid-20s at this point. And when I go to the hospital, I'm put into, like, a bed and restrained. So my legs and my arms are all, like, wrapped, and then the restraints are on the side of the bed. And there's two police officers on my right, two police officers on my left, and one at my feet. And they're just surrounding me, and I'm wondering, like, what is happening? And I keep going in and out of knowing who I am. So there's times where I literally have no idea what my name is, where I live, my age, nothing. And a nurse comes, and she puts this needle in my leg. And then I fall asleep. And I remember fighting it. Like, I didn't want to sleep.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

I wanted to just stay awake. And when I woke up, I woke up in another room. And there were two nurses and there was two security. And they're just standing there watching me. And I'm thinking, I have no idea where I am. And I remember saying things to them, like, who are you? What are you doing here? And they just kept saying, you need to take these pills. And I wasn't fighting taking the pills, but I just kept asking them these questions, like, tell me who I am. And they said, we don't. We're not, like, having a conversation. Just take these pills. So I did. I fell back asleep. And I wake up in this room, which is just a bed, a tv. And then there's a glass partition, a hallway, and another glass partition. On the other glass partition, there's, like, security, and there's nurses. And you can see a little, like, TV monitor that has cameras everywhere. So you're just being watched, and they're making sure you're okay. And I could hear down the hall, there's people, like, screaming and yelling.

[Host]

So were you in the mental hospital this time or regular hospital?

[Caitlin]

So the hospitals that I always went to were not a mental hospital. They were just a hospital that had a mental unit.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So this unit was not a mental unit. It was just a isolation.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

So I was, like, in isolation. There was. I could hear other people. I couldn't see anybody. I got up, I went to the washroom. When I came back to the room, they had a chair, and it wasn't a wheelchair. It was something different where I had to sit in it. And security and a nurse took me to a room which had a bed, a bathroom, and Then the door locked, and I just had to stay in this room, and I couldn't, like, come out. If I came out, it was because the door unlocked and it was time to eat and take our medication. And I remember being in there and thinking, I feel safe again. At this point, I lived on my own. I had access to everything I needed, but yet I still felt like I wasn't safe. And I think that came from having that conversation with my aunt. Something triggered me, and it just. It broke everything.

[Host]

I think, too, maybe to a certain degree, being in the hospital, even though you were restrained and stuff like that, the second time around, it probably felt like, in a way, you were being taken care of.

[Caitlin]

Yes.

[Host]

Like people were making sure you got your medicine and kind of kept you on this routine in a way.

[Caitlin]

I remember there was a sign that I would read, and it said something like, you are safe here. And that's all I remember this. The sign saying. It was, like, the only sign in the unit. And I was like, I am. Like, I'm okay. And, yes, you're very right. Like, people are making sure I'm drinking water. People are making sure I'm eating. People are asking me questions when they're seeing things happening.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And they're like, here. You. Okay. And this was not something I dealt with. This is now in my 20s, and I still have not had these kind of experiences from my family.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

So I was there for more than 10 days, and I have no contact. Like, I can't have a phone. I can't do anything. And then you go into this other side of the unit that's a little more interactive, and I really don't remember being interactive with people, but I remember feeling like, everybody's okay here. Like, no one's gonna hurt me. No one's gonna do anything bad to me. I'm okay.

[Host]

Now. When you were in there, were they monitoring you with, like, a doctor as well?

[Caitlin]

Yes.

[Host]

And what medication did they have you on? Just like, any psychotics or.

[Caitlin]

Honestly, I didn't know.

[Host]

Okay. They were just like, take these.

[Caitlin]

Yes. So you get put on a form, which means that they can make all your medical decisions. I didn't have any right to decline anything, and I guess I did have a right to ask questions, but I was not in the state to ask questions.

[Host]

And were they diagnosing you with anything or. They were. Okay.

[Caitlin]

So they had never diagnosed me with anything except for clinical depression and anxiety when I was younger, and they didn't even re. Diagnose me with that in the hospital.

[Host]

So basically at this point, they're just kind of trying to stable you out.

[Caitlin]

Yes. They're just trying to make sure I can, like, basically enter society again and not hurt anybody.

[Host]

Right. Or yourself.

[Caitlin]

Yes.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

So when I get out, I'm on medication, and I remember I took it, and then I was laying in bed and I had, like, full body convulsions. And I had called my aunt and I told her this. She had called me and was asking me how I was doing. And then I called her and told her this had happened. And she said, you just have to keep taking the medication. And I said, no, it's not that I don't want to take the medication. It's that there's obviously something wrong. Like, I'm. My body is physically reacting in a way that I shouldn't.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

I found out I was given the wrong medication. And these things happen. Like, mistakes happen. I don't remember if it was the hospital, if it was the pharmacist.

[Host]

That is so scary.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. But I just had the wrong medication. Nothing else bad had happened. But obviously this is something. As somebody who has been through so much, I'm now a little doubtful of taking medication.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And how am I going to heal? Like, how am I going to be okay? So I was put on the right medication, but it was still taking a while for me to not feel the symptoms that I was feeling before. And I'm living independently. Like, I'm working. I also have to go to court and do, like, an anger management course because I was charged with disturbing the peace because I was yelling at people. And those charges were dropped as long as I went through these courses, which was fine. But there was a lot that I had to do. There was, like, a therapist that I had to speak to. I still had to speak to the doctor in the hospital. They were checking up on me. And at this point, it was still kind of scary because I wasn't diagnosed with anything. So I'm thinking, how do I get better? How do I know what to do?

[Host]

Yeah. And like, how are you supposed to know if it's going to happen again?

[Caitlin]

Yes. That was the biggest fear of mine, is thinking, how do I stop this?

[Host]

Yeah. Because it's like you had no control over it.

[Caitlin]

Yes. And the only thing that I knew is that I spoke to my aunt. And for me, at that point in time, I didn't understand that was a trigger until it happened again. She called me, and I went into another episode of psychosis. And this time I hadn't slept for three days. So she had called me. I didn't sleep for three days. And I kept going to friends houses the same way in high school that I would go and stay at friends houses because I was kicked out of my house. I still have my own place. I still have a safe environment I can be in, but yet I felt like I needed to be around other people. So I went from friend's house to friend's house. And I remember sitting with some of my friends who were Jehovah's Witnesses and I had been raised with. And they knew me very well. And I was telling them all these things and it wasn't really making sense. But I was sitting there for about six hours just talking, and this was not like me at all. And as I was talking, I think things were getting worse and worse. And there would be times where I just forgot everything. I didn't know how I got there. I didn't know my name. But then I would come back. So I have these big gaps in memory of those experiences. But one thing that I remember saying to them is, I'll never hurt an animal or child. And they were confused. Like, why am I saying this? Through everything I had went through, I felt like my family had these really disgusting traits that they had passed on. And I knew I wasn't that. Even in my episode of psychosis of forgetting everything, I knew I wasn't that person. And they had a child and they had a dog. And I remember thinking, like, I'm not saying this because this is the situation I'm in. I just don't want people to, like, think I'm violent and that I'm going to do anything bad to anybody, because I'm not. But I'm really suffering right now. Eventually, I went to a family member's house who I was told to go to their house. That was not the right situation for me. And I ended up back in the hospital. This family member knew that both times I had psychosis. The last person I spoke to was my aunt and said, you're not going to speak to her anymore. Like, we won't allow her to contact you. We're going to tell her. And when I went back into hospital, it was the same kind of scenario. I was sitting in this room by myself, and security is outside. If I need to use the washroom, like, security is coming with me. I can't be left alone. And I don't know why. Like, I felt like, why am I dangerous? I didn't do anything. And especially this time. There was nobody that I hurt. I didn't yell at anybody. So I was very confused. My aunt had told this family member who had took. Who took me to the hospital that I was schizophrenic. And they told the hospital this. I was never diagnosed with schizophrenia in my life. And now the hospital was trying to see if this was true. So I'm in the hospital. I'm getting tests done, both physical tests, and I have to go and speak to somebody once a day. I'm locked into this room. When I get out, I can eat, I can take medication. Eventually, I go to the other side and it's more interactive. And this time, I do remember a lot more. And what I do remember is that I was there during Christmas. And keep in mind, I have never celebrated Christmas since I was, like, 8 years old. And I got gifts, and I was like, these people are nice. Like, this is nice to be here. And then I celebrated my birthday in there, and nobody could leave. Like, we couldn't go anywhere. But yet there are people who knew somebody outside of the hospital that bought me a birthday present and then brought it to the hospital. I was like, wow, these people are really nice. And this is something that I haven't experienced since I was seeing my dad every other weekend when I was 8 and younger. Finally, I'm being treated with kindness.

[Host]

And I think, too, it gives you a more realistic sense of community.

[Caitlin]

Yes, these people were struggling, and yet they were able to still be kind. Why couldn't my family, who was thriving at certain points in time, show any of this? There was this older woman, and I think her name was Mary, But I'm not 100% sure. And I really liked Mary because when I would wake up, she was there coloring, and I would sit beside her, and we would color together. And she had never been independent. She was probably in her 60s, and she always lived in a home. So there's. In the area that I live in, there's no, like, mental asylums. You live in a home. So it's a home where other people are there and they support a small group of people because they're. They're not capable of living independently. And on this side, we can make, like, tea, and we can, like, get our own snacks. And I would make myself tea, and one day I asked, would you like one? And I brought it to her. She said, no one has ever brought me tea in my life. And I was thinking, you're 60 years old. Like, how could that possibly happen? And I realized a lot of these People had just suffered for so long, and that's what was the common factor. There was an older man in there who I always gravitated towards because he had a little walker and he was frail. So I always needed to make sure his name was Bob. Like, Bob is okay. So wherever Bob went, I was like, bob, do you need anything? He'd be like, no, I'm okay. Like, okay, but if you do, just let me know. And one day he came over, and I was sitting to a group of older men, and they said, bob, you know, this woman is really strong. And I was like, are they speaking about me? Like, I didn't really recognize. And I got up and I went to walk away, and this gentleman stopped me, and he goes, I never want to see you again. And I was like, rolling here for a reason. Like, maybe this man isn't well yet, so let me just dismiss this. And then he goes, no, no, no. I know that you have been through a lot, but you have the ability to never come back here again. You have the ability to do great things and to be okay. Not everybody in here has that. So I want you to remember this. And he said, all the places that I go to get help or when I don't have the help that I need, I come here. I don't want you to experience that anymore. And this man was very nervous, and he was very kind. And that stuck with me. When I got out of the hospital this time, didn't speak to my aunt. There was no chance that this was going to happen again. I stopped speaking to a number of family members and to a number of friends who just didn't get it. And from there, I was evaluated by a nurse who came to my house once a week. I had, like, a support worker that would evaluate me. I had a therapist, I had a psychologist. I had a sleep specialist. And I was still in these court, arranged, like, sessions that I had to do that had to do with anger management. So every day of the week, I had to speak to somebody. And at this point, it didn't feel like support. It was just like something you had to do. Yes, I had to do it. It was necessary. But with all of that, I still was never diagnosed with anything. I wasn't schizophrenic. They confirmed that there was nothing wrong with me. And my whole life, I had been told there was something wrong with me. I had been evaluated. I had been in therapy. And I started to believe it. And then I broke. And I was like, there has to be something wrong. With me instead of realizing I could be okay. And it was that one man that told me who I could have dismissed, not even allowed him to continue the conversation, but I am so happy that I did because that allowed me to never go back.

[Host]

And a couple of things. One thing that you mentioned that I wanted to touch on really quick when you said that the common denominator of all of you guys that were in there was that you were all hurting in some way and that I always say this to people, like, with this show as well. And just in general, even if people's stories aren't the same, like, the common theme is that people have been through hurt. And that's why it's so nice when you can form a community where you feel like you have the support of someone that gets it. Maybe not in the exact same way, but they understand what it feels like to be in a place of struggling and that it isn't shameful or bad to be in an environment where you're getting extra help. And the other thing I wanted to say as well is, while yes, mental illness is very real, there's also the flip side that I don't think that there's enough research on that you can have these psychotic breaks because of things that you've been through, not because it's in your genes, not because you need to be diagnosed with something, but because something traumatic enough happened or is triggering you enough that you just. Your brain almost just is shutting off and wants to escape from it. And I feel like that's something that you don't really hear enough about. And I think people jump to the conclusion, myself included, that when you go somewhere, you know, whether it's just on a specific, you know, unit of a hospital or a mental hospital, that most of the time people are getting diagnosed with things. But there's this flip side where people might just have this super low point in their life where, like I said, they need that extra help. They need that support, that stability and that routine, even if it is just for, like seven to ten days, you know? And I don't think that that is accepted enough. I feel like it's so shameful. Like, people are embarrassed of it. They're scared to talk about it, because I think people look at it as weak, but it's not looking. Seeking help and getting help is never weak. That's actually a stronger thing to do because enough people don't do it.

[Caitlin]

I think also a lot of people are scared because they hear these horror stories and they think, if I go to the hospital, they're going to treat me this way. And that was something that was told to me over and over again. Oh, I'm so sorry that you had to go to that part of the hospital. I heard that they treat people in such an awful manner. And it's the same with police. We hear that police brutality. In every experience I had, the police took me to the hospital. I am so appreciative of what they did because they could have arrested me and put me in a cell and it could have got a whole lot worse for me. Who knows what I would have done to myself in that time.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

But they took me to the hospital. And yes, it was traumatic to be, like, restrained and to be jabbed in the leg and to wake up and not know where I am, but that's what I needed. That's how bad it got. And I think a lot of people, they want to be diagnosed. I was that person. What would that have helped?

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

I would have then thought, oh, I'm schizophrenic. I can never do anything with my life.

[Host]

Right. I can never get better medication to be okay or to function.

[Caitlin]

And that just wasn't the case. I needed to get out of my environment. And when I would hear these things about Jehovah's Witnesses, the one thing I always hated was, they're not bad people. There were bad people in the organization.

[Host]

And that, like you said, that is with everything. That's with every religion, every occupation. You know, there's good nurses, bad nurses. You can hear it from anywhere. I mean, I have had people on here as well that have had great experiences at mental hospitals. And, you know, those are places that really help them and then the complete opposite, you know. And unfortunately, with everything in the world, there's good and evil, there's good and bad, and it's just kind of what. What you get. But that doesn't mean that everything is that way.

[Caitlin]

Exactly. And I think that's unfortunate when people don't get the help that they need because they're prejudging other people, but that's their actual job. Like, there are going to be the ability to have repercussions if they don't do their job properly. So, yes, you may think I'm a victim of this or I'm a victim of that. I am going to be a victim here as well. Yet that may not happen. And that was the case with me. I always thought sexual abuse was really the only form of abuse. I was never yelled at. I was never hit. It was never violent. It was psychological. I was taught that the world was going to end one day and that I had to be a Jehovah's Witness. When my mom died, there were Jehovah's Witnesses that would reach out to me and say, you have to be a Jehovah's Witness if you ever want to see your mom again. And I would be mortified. I'm like, how could you say that to somebody? How could you tell me that I can't be myself and make my own decisions and this is the only way I can see my mom again? I'm still a good person. And how dare you ever use an organization to cover up your vile behavior. The things that you did to deteriorate lives that without you in it, they could have been okay. The people in my life who always demanded respect for, for me were the people who I never respected. And it wasn't because they demanded it. It was simply because they didn't deserve it. They wanted to control me and I wasn't shown love. I don't think love is conditional, hurtful, controlling, manipulative. It's none of those things.

[Host]

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[Caitlin]

Yeah, I didn't know that. I thought this is love because this is my family. They say they love me. Other people say, oh, your family loves you so much. They didn't. They love the idea of me and their idea wasn't who I was. So I think all in all, everything that I went through, I'm happy now because I have these realizations and these tools that I'll never go back. I'll never be at that mental state again because I'll never allow those People in my life. And it's easy for me to understand toxicity because I was never comfortable with it. I was familiar with it. I saw it all around me. But even with that guy at that party who I'd never spoken to, I knew there was something wrong. I was hanging out with guys who were twice my age. I was a teenager. I felt safe around them. And a lot of people are like, why would you hang out with these older guys? And they're taking you to clubs? And I'm like, I feel fine.

[Host]

Yeah, you can trust your gut.

[Caitlin]

Yes. And a lot of people I felt like I had to save, whether it be my friends in high school or whether it be my mother, they didn't have. They had that gut feeling, but they didn't have the courage to. To speak up and do something about was like they just allowed themselves to be diminished for other people. Because I think the people who act the worst way, they need the most love. But it's not up to us to give it to them. It's not up to us to try to fix them. I think my mom tried to fix her husband. He was not worth fixing, nor was he ever fixed. When she died, he. He was disfellowshipped again. I don't know what he does today. I have never. I stopped speaking to him when we were even living together. But all that I went through was always dismissed by myself. And now I deal with it. It's my responsibility to heal, and it's my responsibility to say I took part in these toxic relationships. Yes, I was a child and I didn't understand it, but I still had a part, which means I have control. I have control over what happens in the future.

[Host]

And then. How long ago did you rekindle with your dad?

[Caitlin]

I never did.

[Host]

Oh, you didn't? I thought you said that you. You later did.

[Caitlin]

So. I did see him.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

But never consistently so. It's still. Sometimes I'll see him on Christmas if I call, and if he answers, he doesn't call me at all. And I decided to reach out to him, and I continuously do so. Because when my mom passed away, I realized if he passes one day, and I never tried to have a relationship with him, I could regret it.

[Host]

It's more so for you than it is for him.

[Caitlin]

It's 100% for me. It's really nothing to do with him.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

Because even when I see him, he a lot of times won't even speak to me. And if he does, it's a very, like, short conversation. He Was never bad to me. I only have positive memories with him.

[Host]

So why do you think he's that way now?

[Caitlin]

I don't know, cuz I don't know him.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

I couldn't tell you.

[Host]

Is he your stepmom?

[Caitlin]

Yes.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

He has his daughter and he now has a grandchild as well. So I feel like he just. He wanted to be married and he wanted a child. He wanted that with my mom. It didn't work out. So when he got that, it was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna pay attention to.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

That's the only justification I ever came up with.

[Host]

And do you have a relationship with your stepmom at all or not so much since?

[Caitlin]

No, No, I don't have a relationship with her either.

[Host]

So are you. Do you have a relationship with any of the friends that were in the Jehovah's Witness, like, when you were younger that you talked to?

[Caitlin]

I speak to them periodically.

[Host]

Okay.

[Caitlin]

I don't see them on a regular basis. So if anything comes up, I would be there. If it's a funeral, I go to the funeral. I've been to their weddings. So we still have communication. It's not like it was when we were younger, but I think that's just typical. It wasn't because I left the organization and they stayed in it. It was more because we grew up.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And we just had different lives and we moved to different places.

[Host]

Right.

[Caitlin]

So for me, I have nothing against them. And there are Jehovah's Witnesses that I do see on a regular basis that I grew up with and that I really appreciate. They were people I did meet a little bit later in life. They weren't necessarily people who we were born around the same time and knew each other from, like, infants or from toddlers. Maybe. We met when I was like a teenager. So there's certain people that I do remain in contact with.

[Host]

Yeah. And I just wanted to mention as well, you know, I think. And this can go in any situation that happens in life or to. To us in life, but, you know, when someone is taught some. Something or religion or specific teachings from such a young age, I feel like one of two things can happen. It either becomes something that's very ingrained in them and they don't speak up. They don't even have the ability to think anything different. Or there's this other side of where you could kind of battle those teachings and battle those thoughts and the things that are being taught to you is right. And I feel like that's what you did, which is really important to talk about because I'm sure that there's a lot of people that they could be in any religion or involved in any cult or anything where they're being taught these specific rules or these ways that they should live or what's right and what's wrong. And they might feel like it is easier to stay quiet and to not question it or battle it or go against it, but in reality, it's okay to want to break away from things like this. Just because you're born into it or brought up in it doesn't mean it has to identify you or be something that you follow in life. Because I think that, you know, to have all these different rules set when our time here is so short, in my opinion, just be a good person, you know, in whatever way you can be. Just be the best person for yourself, for those around you. And, you know, especially when you're brought up around, around things that are just blatantly wrong. Like, you know, in your gut, this is not right. This is wrong. And like you said, it doesn't have to do with the whole organization, but that's what you saw. Like, you. In your gut, you knew the difference of something being good and something being bad. And I think you made that decision because of that, because of what you saw and what you felt to break away from that. And I think that it's still amazing, though, that you still have that mindset of you're not against it as a whole, you know, because there's a lot of people that would just completely shut off from it and be like, I hate it. I don't like anything about it. So I think that it's great that you're in this place of just healing for yourself but not having any judgment towards anything. Like, it seems like you've just really taken in the whole experience and you're able to say, this is where I am now. This is what happened. And. And none of it defines me. But you, like you said, you do have these tools now to kind of dictate what's good for you and what isn't and where you can set boundaries in your own life, which is amazing to have.

[Caitlin]

I think a lot of the teachings were important. I think that religion is very different than spirituality. I think religion is like academic learning. So when you go to school, you're given the basics of reading, writing, math, all those kind of things. So that teaches you how to worship and connect with God. But your spirituality is your definition of God and your connection, and it could be done in any way. And some people call it the universe, some people call it God. It doesn't matter what it is. It's a higher power that we're all connected to. Y. I would never deny that we're all connected when we all have the same material. We all have flesh, bones, blood, organs. We're all made out of something. And I believe we all have a soul as well. That's what allows us to live. So this is something that I was helped to understand. But why would I dismiss it? All right? It's not what I went through that made me. It's what I did with it. It's what I chose to be sometimes, despite it, with my family. I said, I'm not going to be like you guys. But at the same time, my mother, my grandmother, they were loving and kind. They were good people. My grandmother's still alive, so she's still a good person. But there's other people that it is what it is. They are who they are. And I would rather know that. I'd rather people show up and be that vile person. It doesn't mean they're vile to everybody. They can have a perfectly good relationship with somebody else. They're just not for me. That religion is just not for me. It's hard, I think, also with the mental health issue there. I think my family was very developmentally delayed. I think they struggled with their mental health. But I was raised in a generation where awareness was brought to the table. My mom put me in therapy. She should have been in therapy herself. She didn't recognize that. She didn't know that My grandparents should have been in therapy as well. They had been through a lot in their childhood, and they would say things like, they would be drinking, and all of a sudden it would come out and like, this is not the time. This is not the place. Like, you don't tell your grandchildren this, but they just didn't know who to speak to. So it was a tough situation because you want these people to be their best. You want them to be okay. But you can't do anything to make that happen.

[Host]

No, we don't have control over others. And one more thing I wanted to mention as well was just what you were saying about, you know, how, like, obviously now it's like you can reflect on all of this and talk about it, and you're in a really great place. But I think, too, for people just to know, to give yourself grace, because there were times that, you know, for years, like, I feel like you kind of Let your aunt back in, or you. You weren't sure yet what your triggers were or what was good for you and what wasn't. And I think that that just takes time, age, experience, and sometimes going through the same thing a couple times to realize, okay, maybe this is what's toxic and not what's right for me. So I think, too, like, not beating ourselves up if it takes us some extra time to heal and to get to a place where we understand, you know, why things happened or what's good for us and what isn't. Because I don't think enough people give themselves grace. I think a lot of people are just hard on themselves, and they're like, why aren't I there yet? You know, why aren't I? Why haven't I reached this part of my healing journey? But it takes time, and I feel like we never fully stop healing. I feel like it's something that we're constantly working on and learning and developing new tools, new skills, skill sets, and just all we can really do is continue to work to be the best version of ourselves, you know, obviously for the world around us, because there needs to be more good people, but just for ourselves as well, just to make sure we're in a place within where we genuinely feel joy and peace. And it takes time to reach that, but. But it's worth it, a hundred percent, because look at you now. Now you can talk about it.

[Caitlin]

Yeah, now I can talk about it. And now I can help other people.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Caitlin]

And that's the thing, is, I feel like whatever we have internally, which we decide our emotions connect us all, but it's also developed within ourselves. You don't wake up in the morning and you're happy because you woke up in a different place. You could be in the same place you woke up yesterday, but you decided to be happy. And when you do that, it affects the people around you the same way your misery affects the people around you. It's all energy, and it also attracts the wrong people to you.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Caitlin]

And when you think there's something wrong with this person, stop and think, what maybe, can I adjust? Doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with you, but it means that there's something that is attracting this to you.

[Host]

I agree. You couldn't have said it better.