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- [00:00]
A
So my name is Ashley, and I grew up in a polygamous family. So My dad had six wives at one point, and I have 45 siblings. But that's, like, the number that we go with. Some of my siblings would probably be like, it's more or it's less. That's the number that I just. I just stick with that one. Could be more, could be a little less, but 45.
- [00:26]
B
I have so many questions already. Wait, six wives at once?
- [00:32]
A
Yeah.
- [00:35]
B
Some people would be like, that is great.
- [00:38]
A
Like, who?
- [00:39]
B
Oh, my God. Wait, so, all right, I'm gonna let you go, and then I'll ask my questions as you go, because I'm sure you're gonna answer them.
- [00:46]
A
I'm sure you can ask whatever.
- [00:49]
B
So I'll need to get the rundown in the background, but so six wives. All right, so how.
- [01:00]
A
I don't even know. Hold on. I got.
- [01:03]
B
My questions are on, like, a freaking wheels.
- [01:06]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [01:07]
B
I'm just trying to wrap my. My head around the household.
- [01:10]
A
Yeah.
- [01:11]
B
So did he have children with all six of these?
- [01:15]
A
Yes.
- [01:16]
B
And I'm assuming some of this was overlapping. Like, some of them are pregnant. Pregnant at once and having kids.
- [01:23]
A
Yes. So I have, like, siblings. Like, I have a sister that's 10 months older than me from a different mom and a sister that's 10 months younger than me from another mom. And then I have, like, brothers that are, like.
- [01:34]
B
Right.
- [01:35]
A
A year older than me now, around the same age.
- [01:38]
B
Was your mom one of the six wives?
- [01:41]
A
Yes.
- [01:43]
B
Wow.
- [01:44]
A
My mom was number two out of the six wives. This is crazy. And my mom had 12 kids all by herself, and I was number six of the 12. Or number seven. She had a stillborn, so I think I was number seven with the stillborn.
- [02:04]
B
Okay. Yeah. Oh, my. Okay. You really did start off with a punch. All right, I'm ready. Okay. So why don't. I guess you want to start, like, childhood and just growing up and whatever else you want to throw in there for me?
- [02:17]
A
Yeah, I think I'll just start with my childhood and go from there. Yeah. Cuz I feel like in my whole life, I've gone through so many different things.
- [02:27]
B
Right.
- [02:29]
A
And so, yeah, I just feel like I have, like, a lot to share. But, like, when we were younger and my mom had me, she had almost all of her kids at home, had a home birthday and. But I was one of the three that was at the hospital. Okay. One of those being her stillborn baby that she had. But I. And I don't know why. I don't know why. I was one of the random, like, couple of kids that were born at the hospital, but we grew up in Nevada. But I was actually born in Utah because it was, like, right across, like, the border. And so she had me in a hospital in Utah. But for the first couple of years that I of my life, I grew up in Nevada, and we lived in trailers, and they were trailers that had no heat, no AC in hot Nevada. I have no memories of that, though.
- [03:19]
B
Okay, so you don't remember, do you? Have you asked your parents, like, how many of you at once it was in the trailers?
- [03:25]
A
I don't know how many of us at once, but it was almost all of us. Because when I was 2, my family split up and the wives left, but my mom stayed with my dad.
- [03:37]
B
Okay.
- [03:38]
A
So my mom had some kids after me with him. But other than that, that was, like, all my siblings at that point. Almost all of my siblings at that point, other than the few that my mom had after.
- [03:51]
B
And it's just so interesting. Like, how so? And correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know a bunch about it, but basically in Utah. And is it just Utah or is it other places that, like, this is common or more common for the men to have multiple wives?
- [04:07]
A
I think Utah is a pretty common state. Like, there's maybe other states, too, but Utah is, like, probably the most common. And I think it's because, like, so many people think that, like, the LDS Church practices polygamy and lives polygamy, but they don't. They did back in, like, 1890s.
- [04:27]
B
Yeah.
- [04:28]
A
I don't know. Around that time, they stopped living that way and they had, like, this whole thing called the Mormon Manifesto where their prophet, Wilford Woodruff, said, we're no longer practicing polygamy anymore, and we don't believe that we should be living this way anymore. But then when that happened, there were still people that believed that they should be living polygamy and they should live that way. So when that happened, there was tons of breakoffs of polygamy. So when people hear polygamy, they always think that. It's like they always think of flds, Warren Jeffs with, like, the bonnets and the dresses and the poofy hair. But the polygamy that I grew up in was not flds.
- [05:10]
B
Okay.
- [05:11]
A
And there. Have you ever seen the show Sister Wives?
- [05:15]
B
No, but I watched a little bit of the documentary about, I think, the Warren guy.
- [05:22]
A
Oh, okay.
- [05:23]
B
Because there was a documentary on him.
- [05:24]
A
Yes. So that was the. So the Documentary Sweet, Keep sweet, Pray and Obey.
- [05:29]
B
Yes, I watched him.
- [05:30]
A
That was Warren Jeff's. I didn't grow up in that. Right.
- [05:33]
B
Okay.
- [05:34]
A
I didn't grow up with that. But there's a show called Sister Wives on tlc, and I grew up with them. Like, they're from the same polygamy as me. The Browns is what their name is. But I haven't watched a ton of the show, so I don't know how accurate it is because, you know, reality tv. Yeah. And, like, when they started the show, like, they got excommunicated and, like, kicked out of the polygamist group that I grew up in. So. So we grew up back to the trailers. We grew up in those trailers. Everybody had these trailers. And, like, I remember my siblings telling me that, like, in the morning, my mom would turn on the oven, and they would, like, go warm up by the oven to keep warm, and that was, like, their heat in the morning. And it's so crazy because, Yeah, I was 2, so I don't remember. I don't have any memories, but I feel like. So all of my siblings, we all have, like, different traumas and different stories based on the age that we were. So I was 2, and my family split up, and my mom was pregnant with my younger brother just below me, and my mom stayed with my dad. And so after the. My family split up, we moved to Lehigh, Utah. And I have some memories in Lehigh, Utah, but not a ton. I, like, remember, like, playing with my little brother and, like, riding bikes, and we'd go on the porch and eat ants. Like, just random little memories like that that I remember. But then when I was five, we moved to this little town called Mayfield that was, like, two hours south in Utah. And we moved to Mayfield because my dad was trying to start, like, a polygamous community there, and because there was, like, a polygamous community in, like, around Lehigh. But I don't know why. I mean, I've never fully asked why they were trying to do that, but there were, like, some people that were from the polygamous religion is us that moved down that way, but it didn't end up becoming this big thing. But that's where I lived all of, like, my childhood until I moved out. And in Mayfield there, we. We moved with, like, a family friend, and they were the ones that, like, bought the property. But we, like, there was two houses, and so they lived in, like, this smaller house because it was just this older couple. And then my mom's family lived in the bigger house, and we Were like surrounded by mountains and we had like a huge field and it was like honestly, like fun in that sense. As a child, like we basically lived in the mountains. Me and my siblings would go hiking and we'd build forts and all the things.
- [08:22]
B
Yeah. Quick question for you. So growing up, I know that you said you weren't raised in the. What is it called?
- [08:29]
A
The FL FLDS church.
- [08:32]
B
Were you being taught like any special like practices or religion growing up or anything?
- [08:39]
A
Yeah. So the polygamy that I grew up like this like the breakoff that I grew up in is called the AUB and they basically like these breakoffs believe a lot of like the LDS religion but like their own spin off. Right. Like everybody has like slightly different beliefs and some are like more bizarre than others. And I would say mine is probably like one of the most like least bizarre. But then like when I tell people, they're like, that's crazy. And like I was just like an event with these girls and I was talking to them with my sister in law and she was like telling them like how close we are and stuff. And they're like, whoa, your guys story is so cool. Like you should tell that online. And she was like, this is not even like Ashley's most interesting thing about her. Yeah. And they're like, oh, tell me. And I was like working them up to it. And they're like, just tell me. And I was like, I grew up in a polygamous family. And they're like, holy. And I'm like, it's so funny to like see people's reactions because I'm like, I think I'm so desensitized to it that like, I forget how crazy it is till I tell somebody. And they're like, holy crap. Like that's so cool.
- [09:59]
B
Right. Well, I think also too, like that was your norm.
- [10:02]
A
Like that's my normal.
- [10:03]
B
Yeah. Like if you don't know any different, then it's not gonna seem like outrageous to you.
- [10:08]
A
Yeah, it's true.
- [10:10]
B
So like what were they, I guess like growing up? What were you like taught as far as like, can you explain that? So it's is polygamous is considered or polygamy is considered a religion there.
- [10:20]
A
Yeah.
- [10:21]
B
Okay. Because I didn't know that.
- [10:23]
A
And there's different polygamist religions because there were like so many different breakoffs from the LDS church when they decided that they weren't living polygamy anymore. So like we grew up reading the Book of Mormon and the Bible and like believe that there's like A prophet that gets revelation from God. And so we've always had, like, a prophet that supposedly is supposed to be able to, like, have a connection to God. And.
- [10:53]
B
Okay.
- [10:53]
A
Is kind of like the leader and. But yeah, I don't know if you know anything about the Book of Mormon or the Bible, but, yeah, we would read both. And it's. I think that most polygamous religions do read both, but it's, like, up to their own interpretation. Like, yeah, same with, like, the LDS Church. Like, they read the Book of Mormon in the Bible and they have different interpretations of it, and so they. There's just so many different breakoffs that believe just different things.
- [11:24]
B
Okay.
- [11:25]
A
And with the flds, like, it's so easy to spot, like, oh, you can tell, like, that's a polygamist. But, like, the polygamy that I grew up in, like, if you're in Utah, like, you probably have, like, talked to someone that's a polygamist, and you don't even know it because they're distressed normal. And, like, they wear long sleeves because they were, like, a religious garment that is long sleeved. But so, like, maybe in the summer you could spot out, like, they're wearing long sleeves and it's hot. But, like, I had kids in school that would ask me, like, do you change when you go home? Like, no, I just wear these clothes. And I think that's just, like, a common misconception. Like, people always think that there's only FLDS polygamous. And one time, I actually remember I went with. With my sister in St. George, and we were at the mall, and there was a couple of polygamous women there. And I, like, was like, oh, my gosh, Camilla, there's polygamists. And she was like, ashley, you're a polygamist? I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, even to me, it was, like, crazy to see other polygamists, even though I grew up in polygamy, because it's, like, so different from each other. So that was just kind of a funny, funny thing.
- [12:49]
B
Yeah. So how old were you when your dad. When you guys moved over to the other town?
- [12:56]
A
I was five.
- [12:57]
B
Okay. And he wanted to move there to kind of start, like, another little polygamous.
- [13:03]
A
Community, like, with the same AUB group. Just, like, there's little communities where people, like, kind of live together and they help each other and, like, practice the same practice. They have the same beliefs. And so he was kind of trying to do that.
- [13:20]
B
And at this point, he was only with your mom.
- [13:22]
A
Yes.
- [13:23]
B
Okay.
- [13:23]
A
So he was Just with my mom. And.
- [13:25]
B
And why did the other wives leave?
- [13:27]
A
I honestly, like, because I was so young. Like, I wish somebody would just be, like, straight up.
- [13:33]
B
Yeah.
- [13:34]
A
Like, nobody will really tell me exactly why. Like, I know that he, like, gambled and had kind of, like, a gambling addiction, but I don't know if that's why. Like, okay, nobody will actually tell me why. So it's kind of annoying because whenever I ask, people are kind of, like, beat around the bush. I'm like, someone freaking tell me why now.
- [13:52]
B
Do you still have a relationship with any of those wives or. No?
- [13:58]
A
Kind of, but not really. Like, we don't talk often. Like, if I were to run into them, like, they would be super nice.
- [14:04]
B
Okay, but you didn't, like, stay super in touch?
- [14:06]
A
Yeah, but, like, we would call them, like, our other moms or our aunts. Like, that's what you call, like, the other moms is either your aunt or your other mom.
- [14:15]
B
Okay.
- [14:15]
A
And so we would always call them aunt. And so. Yeah, it's. It's crazy because, like, having so many siblings, you would think that I'd feel, like, surrounded by, like, so much love and, like, we'd all be so close, but we're not.
- [14:31]
B
Right?
- [14:31]
A
But I think it's because, like, we grew up in, like, a very broken version of polygamy. I, like, I like to say that I grew up in, like, a divorced family, but it's like, a whole other level of divorced because I have all these other siblings, and because my mom stayed with my dad, this siblings would come and visit us. But because we moved in that little town, we were, like, at least a couple hours away from everybody. And so it wasn't super often that I would see my siblings, but they would come over, like, spring break or summer or a holiday. And anytime that they would come, it would be, like, the best thing ever. I'd be so happy to see my siblings. And I. I would have all these siblings that are around the same age as me, like, brothers and sisters. And I had. I have a sister that is 10 months younger than me, and we're best friends. And I just remember every time that she had to leave, we would just, like, cry our eyes out. And it was so traumatic for me as a kid because I. Nobody would explain to me, like, she's my sister. Why can't I always be with her? Why is she with me sometimes? And then all of a sudden, she has to leave, and I won't see her for months. And that was really hard on my, like, little kid. Brain. And I think as I've gotten older, it was, like, more traumatic for me than I realized.
- [15:50]
B
Absolutely.
- [15:52]
A
Thinking back, it was just traumatic. And every time that, like, my siblings would leave, I. I would, like, write songs. I've realized throughout my whole life, like, music has been, like, a healing thing for me, and I'll kind of, like, explain that through my whole life story. But I would write songs at such a young age, and it was literally like giving Cindy Lou, who Where are you? Christmas vibes. Like, where are my siblings? Why can't I find them? And people don't realize, why do you have to leave?
- [16:27]
B
Right. People don't realize that, you know, something that could seem so simple of, like, oh, you know, your sibling's just going back, you know, somewhere else for a little bit that, you know, the child brain, I don't think really can understand that, especially if there really isn't that explanation or understanding as to why. It just feels like every time somebody's being ripped away from you that you care about, and it hurts.
- [16:51]
A
It was, like, so painful every time. And sometimes I would go and visit her at her house, but it wasn't super common. I only have, like, a couple of memories of going to her house and, like, visiting her. But it's just, like, crazy because, like, as a mother now, I'm just like, I can't imagine my kids constantly being ripped away from each other and also just not explaining to them why, because I feel like kids. Like, it's so hard for a kid's brain to understand the things that happen to them. And. Yeah, it's just crazy.
- [17:29]
B
Now, growing up, were you. Did you have a pretty close relationship with your mom and dad?
- [17:34]
A
I feel like as I was when I was younger, I feel like I had. I thought I had a close relationship with them, but I think it was around, like, 12, 13 years old that I. I don't know if my brain was developing more or, like, what it was, but as I got a little bit older, I started to just, like, start picking up on things. And I'm like, that's not okay. Or, like, I feel neglected or. There were just things that, as I started getting older, I would pick up on, and I would just, like, I've always been, like, such a honest person, so I would just, like, tell them straight up, like, I think this is okay.
- [18:18]
B
Yeah.
- [18:19]
A
And I remember I have a memory of my. My mom wanting to have another kid. And this was after she had her last. And I straight up said to her, like, why would you have another kid? When you can't take care of the ones that you have. And it sounds so harsh, but I'm like, I was like, 12.
- [18:39]
B
Yeah.
- [18:40]
A
But I think it's. That was just like me crying to her. Like, I don't feel like I get enough love from you. Like. Yeah, when you have so many kids, it's hard to separate that love and give it to them equally. And I like to say I have middle child syndrome because it's like, to the next level, though, because it's like I'm the middle child out of 12 kids, plus the other siblings from other moms thrown in there. And I'm actually one of the youngest out of all the siblings, which is crazy. I think I'm like number 38 or 39 out of the 45, but. So I think I always felt like, a little bit disconnected to my siblings too, because I was always like, one of the younger ones.
- [19:28]
B
Yeah.
- [19:28]
A
And I just always wanted to grow up so I could fit in and be with the other siblings. And I have siblings that are around my same age too, but so many siblings that are older.
- [19:39]
B
So would you say between 5 to 12 you didn't really, like, pick up on anything? Like, it was pretty. Just like a normal childhood for you?
- [19:48]
A
Yeah, I feel like it felt pretty normal until, yeah, I started getting a little bit older and I was like, this is kind of weird. Like, why. Why don't I get to see my siblings all the time? Why did we split up? And like, it was so weird because. So we have, like, a greenhouse and we would, like, plant tons of plants. And that was like, my parents way of doing tithing. I don't know if you know what tithing is, but, like, in like, a lot of churches, you'll give like a percentage of what you make to the church. But we didn't make money. We were barely scraping by. And so they would get a bunch of seeds and make all these plants, and they would like, give away, like, vegetables and plants. And that was like, their way of doing tithing. But like, another way that I feel like they felt obligated to, like, help others or maybe their tithing was to if there was someone that needed a place to live or needed help, they would let them live with us. But as a kid, that was so hard because all of a sudden there'd be this random family that also has other kids and we're squishing them into the house.
- [21:03]
B
Yeah. I was like, we don't even have.
- [21:05]
A
Was there even.
- [21:05]
B
There was probably no room.
- [21:06]
A
There was like three Bedrooms upstairs and two bedrooms downstairs. One of the bedrooms upstairs was, like, a little tiny office area that we made a bedroom that had, like, hard floor. And. And then downstairs, we ended up building another bedroom.
- [21:24]
B
Okay.
- [21:25]
A
So then it ended up being three bedrooms downstairs and three upstairs. But with how many kids my mom had. And then we're, like, having other families live with us. We were, like, squishing into this house with, like, random people. And. Yeah, I just feel like it was just. There was, like, added trauma in that way where it's just like, these random kids. Like, there was this family that lived with us, and they had tons of kids. I seriously don't know how we all fit in the house together.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah, like, it's like one of those clown cars that, like, people just keep coming at home.
- [22:01]
A
Like, where are these kids from? Like, how. Yeah, And I remember, like, walking down the stairs and the two kids were, like, touching themselves, like, touching each other, and I was like, what the hell?
- [22:20]
B
Yeah.
- [22:20]
A
So, like, I went and told my parents, and it was, like, always, like, they just wouldn't believe you. Like, you tell them things and they just, like, wouldn't believe you. And so then my older sister was like. Like, heard about it, and she's like, I'm not letting my kids over there anymore. And finally, eventually, they ended up kicking those people out. But it was just like. It was always just, like, the most bizarre things happening, right? And there was, like, this family that ended up moving in with us, and she only had a couple of kids. But it's like, thinking back, I'm like, this was totally inappropriate because I think that my dad and her had an interest in each other of her being, like, another wife. And anyways, she. She had a daughter that was, like, around the same age as me. And she would always compare us, and she would, like, as an adult, I can look back and be like, oh, I can see why you were doing that. But as a kid, I'm like, why is she treating me like this? But she would call me ugly and. And that I'm a terrible person. Like, just the most crazy things. And she would, like, yell at me.
- [23:34]
B
Did your mom or dad know about this?
- [23:36]
A
So I told them, and they didn't believe me.
- [23:39]
B
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- [25:12]
A
But then one time my dad actually walked in on her like saying some messed up to me. I seriously can't even remember. I just remember it being just always comparing me to her daughter and just how her daughter's so much better than me. And he walked up on it and it actually did make him mad and he. We got. There's this huge fight. There's like this screaming match and I'm just like a young girl and I remember calling her a bitch and which was crazy because growing up, like we're not supposed to swear. Like that is a huge. No, no. But my dad didn't care in that moment because it was like just under the circumstances. But there was just this huge fight and we ended up kicking them out and I was like, you're a blah blah, blah. And oh my gosh, it was so crazy.
- [26:07]
B
So, okay, so after, I guess at this time, did your dad ever have more wives again or it just was your mom from then on out?
- [26:16]
A
From my. My mom from then on out.
- [26:18]
B
Okay. Did you end up seeing. Staying in that town until.
- [26:23]
A
Yes.
- [26:23]
B
Okay.
- [26:24]
A
So that's where like most of my memories are, is in that house. Because we stayed there until I moved.
- [26:31]
B
Out, which was what age?
- [26:33]
A
Almost 18.
- [26:34]
B
Okay.
- [26:35]
A
I was just. Before I turned 18, I moved out it's just like.
- [26:38]
B
It's so interesting, though, because it's such a different way of life than what people are used to.
- [26:43]
A
Yes. For sure.
- [26:44]
B
And, like, yeah, it.
- [26:45]
A
It is.
- [26:46]
B
And was the norm for you, but at the same time, like, being an adult now, it's like, you can realize.
- [26:51]
A
That it's not normal. Yeah.
- [26:52]
B
And you can look back and, like, realize, like, wow, like, that's something that did create, you know, trauma for me or made me, you know. You know, like, the way that you are. I mean, obviously, you seem great to me, but, you know, it gives you. It does give you a different perspective of kind of realizing what those things can do, I think even just having the disconnect between you and your parents. And I don't think. Honestly, I just. I don't think parents, especially the older generations, realize the effects of, like, even just, like, not really believing your child at times. Yes. I don't think that they realize that's trauma. What.
- [27:26]
A
It does.
- [27:27]
B
Yeah.
- [27:27]
A
Like, messes with something. Right.
- [27:30]
B
It, like, makes you feel like you always have to, like, explain yourself or prove yourself or like. Or just, like, why would I even speak up if no one's gonna believe me anyway?
- [27:37]
A
Yeah.
- [27:37]
B
So. And I don't think people oftentimes realize that.
- [27:41]
A
Yeah.
- [27:41]
B
Kind of.
- [27:42]
A
So true. So true. One random little story to just, like, give the vibe of, like, my house that I grew up in, so we were surrounded by mountains, and we always had deer, tons of deer in our yard. And I would walk up to deer and I would pet them. And that was, like, something that my, like, parents would always brag to other people about. They're like, she can, like, walk up to deer and pet them.
- [28:09]
B
She's an animal whisperer.
- [28:10]
A
I was like, a little animal whisperer. And I. It was like, my favorite thing to do. I. I was like, you have to do it this way. And they go off of vibes. And I have always been such a vibey person, even when I was a little kid. And I was actually vegetarian for a couple of years because of that, because I just felt so connected to the deer that I was like, how could I eat? Right? Bambi? How could I eat Bambi? Like, that's so messed up.
- [28:35]
B
Yeah.
- [28:36]
A
And then my siblings for years were just like, just try the meat. And I think one time I accidentally ate, like, pepperoni on a pizza, and I was like, that was kind of good. Right? And then.
- [28:47]
B
Then you're. You're changed after that. I know I had my. My vegetarian phase, too. And then it's like, Once you have a good piece of meat, you're like, oh.
- [28:55]
A
I'm like, oh, that's actually so good.
- [28:57]
B
I think, too, when you're so. Like when you're young and you don't eat meat and then you, like. I think it kind of. I don't say stunt your growth, but if you're not getting, like, the protein.
- [29:06]
A
Protein.
- [29:06]
B
I was so skinny for so long because, like, I need to put on.
- [29:09]
A
I was just tiny. Yeah. Tiny.
- [29:12]
B
And. Yeah. So now you eat meat.
- [29:14]
A
Yeah.
- [29:14]
B
Okay.
- [29:15]
A
Now I.
- [29:17]
B
Think I'm like, I really don't like meat. Like, it has to be like, I'm.
- [29:21]
A
Still picky with me.
- [29:22]
B
I know. I was just saying that last night.
- [29:23]
A
Eat it. But I'm so picky.
- [29:25]
B
Yeah. Like, sometimes weird texture. Yeah.
- [29:27]
A
I'm done. I'm ruined. And I can't eat it.
- [29:29]
B
Yeah. Or if, like, it doesn't have some sort of, like, sauce or if it's made right. I'm like, I don't really think about it yet.
- [29:36]
A
No. Okay.
- [29:38]
B
So I guess now. So you're 15, and then it's up until 18. Was it was your whole life, would you say, like, you were like, was there any other changes that kind of happened that you experienced or that you went through? And I guess my other question is because I feel like for most people, Moving out at 18 is pretty young.
- [30:00]
A
Yeah.
- [30:01]
B
You know, so, like, did you feel like you were just ready to get out?
- [30:05]
A
Yeah, I. I guess I'll just, like, get more into a little bit of my middle school years, high school years. So in middle school, I was bullied so bad because I became from. Because I came from a polygamous family. And, like, people would say, like, the nastiest things to me. And I was called plague. That was like, people would, like, cough plague as I would walk by. Middle school was rough. What the fuck?
- [30:34]
B
How did they even come up with that term?
- [30:36]
A
I don't know. Middle school.
- [30:38]
B
Ew.
- [30:38]
A
Kids are evil. Kids that at that age are so mean. So I remember during that age, I started having, like, suicidal thoughts, but I didn't really understand, like, why they were popping in my head. Like, why do I think sometimes that I want to kill myself? But I, like, sometimes would tell, like, a friend, like, oh, I want to kill myself, you know? But it's just weird looking back, and I just think that, like, suicide and those thoughts are things that are, like, not. It's not talked about enough. And so I would have those thoughts for years. I would say for a really long time in my life, I would have those thoughts and I didn't understand why they would pop in my head. But then in high school, things got better. I feel like kids were a lot nicer in high school. I was on the soccer team and I made friends on the soccer team. And I feel like kids just weren't as mean as middle school. I don't know. So I feel like my high school years were a lot better, but until it wasn't, right? So when I was 16 years old, my 14 year old brother took his own life. And when that happened, that was like, probably the most, like, life changing thing that's ever happened to me. Like, my life has never been the same since he took his life. And it's been like a huge part of, like, who I am as a person today. And. But when he passed, like, I will never forget the day that it happened. I. It was like. It was like over a holiday weekend. It was like President's Day that Monday. So we, like, didn't have school that Monday. And my friend, my best friend, like, we would always go to her house because I felt like my house was boring and it was old. Like, there was like old carpet and it was smelly and I was, like, always embarrassed of it. So, like, we'd always go to her house. We'd never hang out at my house because it was just boring. And we didn't have good food. Like, she had good food and she had all the good things. But that day, for some reason, she was just like, I want to come say hi to you. And I was like, okay. Sweet. And so she, like, drove over and we were like 10 minutes away. Like, she was in a little town called Gunnison and I was in Mayfield, but she drove over to me and we were both hungry, so we started making nachos. And as we, like, pulled the nachos out and I put a nacho in my mouth. And then we heard this horrified scream. Like, this scream will literally never leave my mind. It's like ingrained in my brain. But we looked at each other and she was like, did your dad just have a heart attack? And I was like, I don't know, but it's not good.
- [33:47]
B
Yeah.
- [33:48]
A
And next thing we know, my dad runs up the stairs and he's like, he killed himself. Oh, God, no. He killed himself. And I just looked at my friend and I just hugged her and screamed. And it's so weird because I feel like in that moment, everything stopped. It was like slow motion, but everything was happening so fast at the same time. I Can't explain it. And I just hugged her and we screamed. And I think eventually she stopped screaming. And I just kept screaming, and I was just holding her. I wouldn't let her go. And eventually I looked out the window, and I saw my sister that lived a few minutes away just fall to her knees. And she's just screaming, why? Why? Why? And then I finally let go of my friend, and I see my mom just pacing the hallway. She's not crying. She's just straight face pacing the hallway. And I have my younger siblings that are just sitting on the couch crying, and they don't quite know why they're crying. And I walked up to my mom, and I was like, dad saved him, right? Like, he's gonna be okay, right? And that's when she lost it. She just started sobbing, and she was like, no, Ashley, he's gone. And I was like, I don't believe you. He's not gone. And so I ran down the stairs, and at this point, cops were there, and there was a cop standing in front of the door, and he. I tried to go in, and he was like, you don't want to see him like that. And I think that's when it finally clicked in my head, like, oh, he is gone. When he said that, like, you don't want to see him like that. And I just started kicking him and punching him, and he just stood there and took it. And I was like, let me see my brother. Let me see my brother. And I'm so glad he didn't let me see him. But he. My brother hung himself in his room. And it's so crazy because the night before that happened, I had got home late and I saw his light on, and him and I were really close. We were just two years apart. We were the only kids that were downstairs at this point because some of my other siblings were grown up and moved out. So we were the only two kids downstairs. And he always would come up with some excuse to keep me up late, and he would, like, come in my room and we'd watch YouTube videos together, or we'd just, like, check in on each other. And I remember seeing his light on, and I thought, no, I'll just go to bed. And I went to bed, and they were saying, like, based on how far he was gone, they think that he had done it that night. And so I probably would have walked in on him and been the one to find him if I had knocked on his door, tried to go in there. And it's so sad to me, because the reason why my dad found him was because it was like 12 at that point. And it was like, he was like, oh, I haven't seen Ammon. And that was my brother's name was Ammon. And he was like, I haven't seen Ammon in a while. And so he went to go check on him. But, like, as a mother, it's so sad for me to look back at that because I'm like, I see my kids first thing in the morning. Like, why did it take? Not against my parents. They have a lot of kids and it's, like, normal. And it was also a holiday. And, like, we were all just busy doing our thing. But I'm like, I'm so attached to my kids that I'm like, I can't imagine not, like, checking in on them first thing in the morning. So it makes me so sad that even I, like, didn't even think, like, where is Ammon? Like, nobody was thinking that. And it was in the afternoon until we found him. And after we found him and all that happened, I just remember them just, like, taking him out in a body bag. And I was in that. So I was telling you how there was two houses on the property. So I went into that other house with we always. She was like our adoptive grandma is what we'd call her. Like, she wasn't our grandma, but she was our adopted grandma. So I went over there and it was February, so it was cold. And so she had, like, a fire going. And we were all around the fire just trying to warm up. And I remember looking out the window and they were taking him out in a body bag. And I was just, like, still just in denial. Like, there is no way that that is my brother. Like, there's no way that that's him going out on a body bag right now. And then it just felt like everything happened so quickly. I just can't explain it. So quickly. Quickly, but slow motion at the exact same time. But all of a sudden, I just had all of my family showing up. My house was full of my siblings. I have never seen all my siblings gathered together like this before. And we were all just hugging each other and sobbing together. And it was honestly, like, so needed. I feel like we all needed each other in that moment. And it was just like every hug was just, like, so healing and felt like the best hug you've ever had in your life. And every cry was, like, so therapeutic. Like, you just needed a hug and you needed to cry. And I remember we were all together and, like, Sometimes we would let out a little laugh because we'd just be talking as siblings and then all of a sudden we'd be like, why the crap? Like, I feel so guilty for even just laughing despairly. And it was just like such a weird time of us all being together. And then like we had to plan his funeral and I had like no part in that because I was 16 and like one of my. I know that like there was a few of my sisters and my siblings and I don't know exactly who all just helped kind of throw it together. But I am very thankful. Like the polygamist community, community that I grew up in, they did like fundraise his funeral because like we didn't have any money for a funeral. We didn't have money for a casket or anything like that. So I'm very thankful for that because, like, even though like what I grew up in, I feel like isn't normal and there's a lot of things that I don't agree with and I don't believe in it. The community is nice. And there were moments where the community was like very.
- [41:19]
B
They'd come together.
- [41:20]
A
Yes. And so we had his funeral and before his funeral they let us like go view him. So like me and my siblings went together and we went and viewed his body and I just remember grabbing my brother that I'm like not even close to. And we just like were holding each other as we walked through the door. And the second we saw him, we're just like sobbing in each other's arms and it's just like a bonding thing. But it's like, why does it take losing someone to bring us together, you know? But seeing his body was like, it just felt like a smack in the face. Like, oh, this is real. Because you're in denial, denial, denial. And I never saw his body until then, so I just like kept denying it in my head. Like there's no way that this is happening. And it's like every night that you'd go to bed, it was like you can't even sleep because you're like gut punched with, oh, Ammon killed himself. And then you're like trying to sleep again and all sudden it's one in the morning and you're gut punched again awake. Ammon killed himself. And it was like that for the longest time. Like the amount of sleep that I did not get for months after he passed is crazy. And it's just like you're going on living your life and you have to keep living your life. You have to wake up and eat breakfast. You have to get ready for the day. And it's like, I don't want to do those things. I don't even want to carry on anymore without him. And anyways, after we all viewed his body, then we had his funeral, like, a couple days later. And it was just like, so. It was, like, so weird having his body in a casket. And I. I remember finding comfort being near his body. But at the same time, it also kind of creeped me out. And I can't explain it. It was like, I'm comforted because I don't want to let your body go because then you're really gone, even though he's already gone. But at his viewing, we all, like, a lot of us siblings, just stood by his casket and people would view his body. And I remember when they closed the casket for the funeral to start, I was just sobbing because it felt like I was saying goodbye. Like, this is the last time that I'm seeing his physical body. And so then at the funeral, it was like, they were just like, if you. If you want to talk, like, we will leave this, like, open spot for people to talk. And I really didn't think that I was going to, but then I, like, didn't want to regret it. And so I remember getting up there and, like, talking a little bit, and I just cannot even remember what I said. But we also, like, I sing a song with my sisters at his funeral, and we were just, like, singing and crying as we're, like, singing. I'm like, I don't even know how we're doing this right now. Trying our best not to cry, but, you know, trying our best. And then we went to his grave site, and we had. His casket was blue because blue was his favorite color. And I feel like people, like, for his funeral and everything, they kept asking me a lot of stuff because him and I were close. I can't even remember things that I told them, but I do remember telling them, like, blue is his favorite color. Like, if we can get a blue casket, that would be really cool. And we were able to get one. And we all wrote, like, with white marker, like, a little goodbye thing to him. So his casket was just full of everybody's, like, goodbyes to him. And I feel like that was really therapeutic, too, to be able to just be able to say goodbye. And then we, like, left flowers. And it was so hard just, like, seeing the casket go in the ground. And it's just, like, I kept feeling like I had to keep saying goodbye. To him, it was, like, closed goodbye. And it was just like, never enough. And it's so hard growing up in the polygamous religion that I grew up in, because they believe that if someone takes their life that they're going to hell. So when my brother killed himself, I had. I, like, couldn't grieve properly. Like, it was so insane because I'm like, my brother's in hell now. Like, what am I supposed to do with that? Like, my little brother's in hell. I'm never gonna see him again. Because, like, they believe in eternal families, but there are certain things that you have to do to be with your eternal family. And I'm like, I'll never get to see him again. And I'm 16 years old and he was 14. I don't know if I said that he was 14 years old when he took his life. And looking back, I'm like, that is so insanely young. And he was literally a little kid. And after he passed, I put so much blame on myself. And part of it was because I had this, like, kind of a weird thing that happened, like, a month before he passed that, you know, those, like, things that are just, like, ingrained in your memory. And it's like, almost like that moment was still and you can always look back at it and remember exactly how it was. And I remember I was driving in the car with my dad and my brother Ammon, and I. I had this random thought pop in my head, ammon's gonna kill himself. And it made me so sick to my stomach. I was like, why the freak did that pop up in my head? Like, that is such a messed up thought. And so I, like, pushed it aside. I don't know why it popped up in my head. But then a month later, he killed himself. And I felt so guilty for not, like, acting on that thought I had, like, checking in on him, like, are you doing okay? Or, like, telling my parents. But I didn't feel like I could tell my parents anything. Like, I didn't have that relationship with them where I felt like I could go to them.
- [48:01]
B
But I think too, like, with a thought like that, there's a lot of times that we'll have these thoughts that we just think are crazy.
- [48:07]
A
Yeah, for sure. And it's like, oh, is that just, like, a fear I have? And that's why it popped in my head. But why do I have that fear? It was like, almost like I was in tune with something. Like, I was in tune with him, but I didn't realize That I was, because I was so young, too.
- [48:22]
B
Now, did he, like, did he have any struggles that you knew of?
- [48:28]
A
It's so hard because I didn't realize that he did, like, when we were together, because, like, he did have anger issues. He had a lot of anger in him, but he was also just the sweetest kid ever.
- [48:44]
B
Yeah.
- [48:45]
A
And with me and him, though, like, he couldn't be mad at me. Like, if he raised his voice at me, two seconds later, he's apologizing. He could never be mad at me. We had, like, this special bond. We always got along, and when we didn't, it was, like, instantly apologizing and we're making it right. And so he had anger issues, and he would get mad at, like, other people or at school. Like, he would get in fist fights with kids at school. But, like, it's like, not until you look back where you're like, okay, there maybe were some signs.
- [49:18]
B
Yeah.
- [49:18]
A
But if you don't know the signs to look for, you might just be like, oh, it's just like a regular teen having issues or, like a bad.
- [49:25]
B
Day or they're frustrated or. Yeah, yeah.
- [49:28]
A
And so after he passed, we were just like, how. How did we not see the signs? And I. And not to speak for any of my other siblings or anybody else, but I know that there's definitely other people that felt some guilt and some blame, too. But after losing him, I felt the guilt and blame so heavily that I became suicidal because I was like, I can't explain other than I just truly believed it was my fault. I was like, this is my fault that he died. If I would have done this, this, or this, he wouldn't have died. And I caused all of my family this pain. I caused it. And I truly believe that. I was like, I did this to my family. I do not deserve to be here. And I would have thoughts like, they probably don't want me here. Like, they probably do think it was my fault. And I just had these thoughts. I would think of exactly how I was going to do it, and I would be, like, driving in a car, and I would just be like, maybe I'll just turn into this semi, or maybe I'll just drive. Start driving really fast and swerve off the road, and hopefully that will kill me. And. Or maybe I'll just, like, take all these pills. I'll just take all these pills and that will kill me. And I was having all these thoughts, and I wasn't telling anybody because I was like, nobody wants to hear it. Like, I deserve this. And this is where it gets kind of, like, crazy. So this is where my husband starts to kind of come into the picture. So I met my husband in the same polygamous religion that I grew up in. And I was 14 and he was 16 when I met. When we met each other, and we met at, like, a church event. And I remember him just standing out to me. He had the brightest blue eyes, and he just had a very kind personality. And I instantly had a crush on him. I was like. But I never had self worth. I thought it was so ugly. And I didn't think that I deserved to be with anybody great. So I was always like, oh, I hope that I can be with someone. Someone like him, you know? And we, like, kind of talked for a little bit, but he lived two hours away from me because I still lived in that little Mayfield town where we tried to have a polygamous community, but not very many people ended up moving out. And so we kind of, like, separated our ways and hadn't talked for a few years. But 12 days after my brother took his life, my now husband, Paul. So Paul's brother died in a construction accident just 12 days after my brother passed. And when his brother died, we. We just ended up reaching out to each other because we're both, like, grieving our brothers, and we started talking on Snapchat. And after we lost our brothers, it really, like, brought us together, gave us, like, we just both, like, we both were really close with our brothers that passed. And, like, he came from a polygamous family, too, and his brother was from the same mom as him as well. And I don't know if I said that it was my. My little brother that took his life, was from the same mom as me and was two years younger than me. So we grew up just doing everything together. But after my husband lost his brother and I lost mine, we just grieved them together, and we got super close. And I remember one night, him and I were. We went and got dinner, and then we just drove off in his truck and just parked somewhere. And it's just like, I feel like any guy I was ever with always just wanted to, like, kiss me or get some, like, oh, he's pulling off to the road, like, he's gonna want to, like, make out with me or something, and he just wanted to talk, and he was just like. And like, during this time, like, I was still just having, like, those heavy suicidal thoughts and still just keeping it to myself, and he just randomly started pouring his heart out. To me. And he was like, I don't know what I would do without you. I. I couldn't live this life if you were not here. You have helped me so much. You are such a good person. You bring so much to this world. And he just, like, just basically just poured his heart out to me and was just telling me how amazing I am and how he couldn't handle if I ever left this world. And when he told me that, it's, like, something, like, clicked in my brain. And I was like, somebody cares about me. Like, somebody thinks that I matter, even though I'm such a terrible person and I let my brother die. Like, these are the thoughts that are in my head. Like, I truly thought I was just the worst person ever. Like, I let my brother die, and it's my fault, but he still thinks I'm an amazing person and he wants me here and he. He needs me here. And it clicked something in my brain, and I was like, okay, if I'm not gonna live for myself and if nobody else wants me here, not saying that they didn't, but this is, like, what's going on in my brain. This is how I felt. Like, if nobody else wants me here, then at least I can. I can live for him. Like, I can fight for him. And slowly through that process, I started to learn that it wasn't my fault. And I started to just work through, like, the guilt and the blame that I had put on myself. And I do feel like that was a process. But I truly believe that Paul saved my life that night because I really didn't have anybody else that I felt I could. Could turn to. And it's looking back, and after learning it's actually so common for people to be. If you lose someone to suicide, to become suicidal yourself. And that's a very common thing that happens. But I obviously didn't know that back then, but did your parents ever talk.
- [56:03]
B
About his death at all or not really?
- [56:06]
A
No. Like, they didn't talk about it a ton. It was almost like we tried to just, like, carry on with our life and just, like. Almost like move on.
- [56:17]
B
Yeah.
- [56:17]
A
And that was something that I struggled with because I'm like, how is everybody continuing to live their life? Like, nothing changed. Not saying that they shouldn't, because you have to. You kind of have to keep living your life. But I'm like, how are people doing this? Like, I just want to lay in bed and never leave again. Like, how are people just continuing to live their life?
- [56:38]
B
And I think that's probably the time, too, that you needed someone most to talk to.
- [56:43]
A
Yeah. And I, like, I had my older siblings, and I had people that I felt like sometimes I could talk to. But in those moments, like, when you feel that guilt or that blame or feel like you're a burden, it's so hard to go to somebody and talk to them, because it's like, I'm just a burden. Like, nobody wants to hear this. Nobody cares. And so after he passed, it was like I put myself in his shoes, and I was like, man, this is like, how he felt. Like, he felt this low that he ended up taking his life. And it's so hard because I. After he passed, I looked through, like, his YouTube search stuff, and there were, like, alarming songs and videos that he was watching. And one of the videos that I found was actually a song. I don't even know how the hell this stuff is on the Internet, but it was a song about someone hanging themselves. And. But in the song, someone, like, they went to hang themselves, and someone walked in, and they ended up not hanging themselves, and they were embraced with this love and all these things. And so, like, when I listened to that, I'm like, it was so hard for me to not be like, was this just a cry for help? And he was hoping somebody would walk in, and then nobody did.
- [58:16]
B
Yeah, because.
- [58:17]
A
So that was so hard for me because I'm like, I saw his light on. I could have maybe walked in before he did it. Who knows? Like, it would have been before he did it or after he did it, and nobody really knows. But I'm like, putting the blame on myself again because I'm like, should I have walked in his room that day? Because I remember it so distinctly, seeing his light on and walking past and thinking, no, I'm just going to go to bed tonight. And I do think that it worked out the way that it should have. And, like, I think I would have been the one to find him, and I wouldn't have been able to handle that. So I'm very thankful that I didn't. But it's just, like, all these things that you pile on to yourself, and you guilt yourself and you blame yourself. And it was so hard for me to work through because I didn't go to therapy. I didn't. I didn't have a close relationship with my parents. I didn't feel like I could go to them and talk to them about it. And also, like, my, like, my mom has always been, like, not very emotionally available. And I think that's, for one Like, a generational thing, like, cycle that she's kind of carried. And also, like, she had so many kids, and so I just, like, didn't feel that close bond to, like, go to her. And so I really, like, leaned on Paul. Like, he's really who, like, helped me through that. But it's just crazy because, like, when Paul and I got together, though, like, we both grew up in the same polygamous religion, so when we started dating, we were planning on living polygamy. Like, we were gonna have sister wives and, like, live that way. Yes. Because that was, like, the way that we were raised.
- [60:08]
B
Yeah.
- [60:08]
A
And, like, he lost. And this is, like, where it made our dynamic even harder is like, he lost his brother. And it's like, I lost my brother to suicide. So he's in hell according to how we grew up, but his brother isn't. And in order for him to be with his brother again, he has to live that way, is what we were taught. And so we were like, we have to live this way so that we can be, like, with. With your brother again. And, like, also at this point, like, I will say, like, I had to, like, work through a lot, but I don't believe my brother is in hell. And that was something that I had to work through. But it was hard because I even had people from the polygamist religion that I grew up in that would compare, like, mine and my husband's brother's death. And she was like, just. There's, like, those situations that you'll just never forget because you're like, that's wild. Who the hell says something like that? But she was, like, talking about my husband's brother, and she was just like, yeah, the grief with him was so hard. I can't even imagine your grief with your brother, knowing he went to hell. And I just remember, like, I'm just, like, shaking, but I'm trying to, like, not cause a scene in front of people. And I just had to leave. I was just. And I remember just leaving and sobbing, and I'm just like, how can I be in this religion that believes that my brother's in hell when I don't think he is? And, like, I had, like, some spiritual experiences after he passed that made me feel like he was in a good place. And one of them was like, after he passed, I had a dream. And I'm not like, oh, dreams or whatever, but, like, I do believe that, like, when people pass, like, sometimes they can come to you in your dreams. And I. After he had passed, I was just like, struggling so bad with the thought that he was in hell. And I didn't know what to do with it. And I had a dream once that I just remember it was dark outside and I was standing outside my house and my. My other brother and my dad were talking. And I could hear them so well. Even though I was outside, it was almost like I was inside with them, but I wasn't, I don't know. And I was just like listening to their conversation. And all of a sudden this, like, my brother Ammon came up to me in like supersonic speed. Like super fast speed. It was like a light. He, like, came up to me and he was like, I'm okay. I'm okay, Ashley. You don't have to worry about me. I'm okay. And I'm like, what? You're okay? Like, then why aren't you here? Like, then come back, come back, I miss you. And then he just zoomed off and I woke up. And I remember after having that dream, I just felt this, like, strong comfort of like, he's in a good place and he's okay. And I felt like I needed that because the weight of him being in hell was so heavy to me.
- [63:25]
B
Yeah.
- [63:26]
A
And it's. It's hard because when you grow up in such a high demand religion, and I would honestly say cold, it. It's like hard because you have been told since you're a child all these things, and it's like you can't even think for yourself because it's like, this is the way and this is the truth. And so how traumatic it was for me to. For him to take his life and for him to be in hell. That alone, when I'm already trying to grieve him was so hard because I'm like, he's in hell. I will never see him again. So then what is even the point of doing the right thing? Like, that's like my thoughts. I'm like, why would I live this way and live righteously if I don't even get to be with my brother in the end? And it was just so hard for me to grieve him. And so after having that dream, I just started to feel some peace. And I feel like it took time for me to just like, kind of like honestly deconstruct some of the stuff I was taught.
- [64:34]
B
Now, did you talk to Paul about this? Like, some of the thoughts you were having of like, that. I guess maybe you were thinking differently than the way that you were raised.
- [64:46]
A
Yeah. So, like, when Paul and I started Dating, we both had told each other like, yeah, I believe this is supposed the way we're supposed to live. But I don't know about the plural marriage part. And plural marriage is like means when you have multiple wives, but only the man can have multiple wives. But we would talk to each other about that and I remember feeling comfort cuz I'm like, at least he's not like, yeah, I want to get all these wives.
- [65:09]
B
Yeah.
- [65:10]
A
So it's made me like have comfort because I always had this fear that I would be married off to some old man who didn't give a about me. And I think that that stemmed from like some of my older siblings. Like, so when someone's dating you in polygamy, it's called courting. And what they do is the man goes to your dad and they say, I want to get to know your daughter. And then our dad gets to say yes or no. And I remember my sister, there was this way older dude, he was like rich, but he was like old and way older than her. Anyways, I wouldn't say he was like a 50, 60, 70 year old man, but he was way older than her. And he asked about my sister and she was like, no, dad. And he was like, you have to give him a shot. Like you have to at least like get to know him. So that guy came to dinner at our house and I just remember my sister's literally like still a teen. She's like maybe 18, like she's so young and she's just like giggling off with my other sister. And like they're kind of like making fun of the situation because they're like uncomfortable. Yeah, they're just uncomfortable. And we, we had dinner with him and that after they had the dinner, my sister was like, nope, I do not want to be with him. And then my dad let it go, but. And maybe he didn't. I don't know. She might have a different story where maybe he pushed it a little more, but I don't know.
- [66:48]
B
So basically if the dad says yes to a guy that comes, you know, asking about one of the daughters, then the daughter basically doesn't have a choice. Like she kind of has.
- [66:58]
A
That's how it was for us. But I wouldn't like, I can only speak for us because I think every family dynamic is different.
- [67:07]
B
Okay.
- [67:07]
A
And I don't think that every dad would make their daughter. I think a lot of dads would like ask their daughter, are you okay with this? But for some reason he was just like, no, right. At least have to give him a shot.
- [67:19]
B
And then an age is not really a problem kind of thing.
- [67:22]
A
Not really, No. I. I think some people that are in it would say that it's, oh, age, whatever. But I'm like, no.
- [67:30]
B
Okay.
- [67:30]
A
My mom was 17 and married my dad at when he was 41. Like, wow, okay.
- [67:35]
B
She.
- [67:37]
A
And like, that was like, back then, like, now they won't let you get married unless you're 18. But she was 17 when she married him, and he was way older than her. And so, yeah, there's definitely some age gaps for sure. Especially when you're getting multiple wives. And it's like, as you're growing older, if you want to have another wife and it's a woman that's not taken, a lot of times it is a younger woman.
- [67:59]
B
Yeah.
- [68:00]
A
And I do feel like it was way more common even when my, like, parents were younger too, to, like, marry younger woman. I don't think it's as common now, but it still happens for sure.
- [68:11]
B
So then you and Paul kind of decided no to the sister wives.
- [68:16]
A
Well, it took us a while. Okay, so I'll kind of get into that. Because it's like, when you grow up in such a high demand religion, it is so hard to honestly, like, think for yourself. And, like, I was taught, specifically myself was taught that, like, if you have thoughts outside of the religion, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, or I don't agree with this, then that's from the devil. So anytime I would have thoughts, I would kind of, like, try and push them aside because I'm like, oh, that's coming from the devil. So when Paul and I got together and we were dating, we both were like, yeah, I'm kind of uncomfortable with the pro marriage part, but we're gonna have to do it, basically.
- [69:01]
B
Yeah.
- [69:01]
A
But it made me feel like a little more comfort knowing that he was on, at least on the same page as me, but. So we dated and he started dating me after I lost my brother, which was my junior year in high school. We literally started talking, like, so our brothers died in February. So my brother was February 15, 2015, and his brother was February 27, 2015. And we started, like, talking and hanging out in April of that year. So it was only a couple of months after we lost our brothers. So we were, like, in the thick of grieving when we came together. And it was also really hard because when him and I started dating, my, like, there's your last name in there. Like, your family's last name has A big input in how, like, people will think about you and, like, kind of how you're treated. Honestly, like, my last name did not have a good rep. So when my husband started dating me, I don't want to say all of his family, but some of it. Some of his family was not, like, on board. On board. They were not on board.
- [70:16]
B
That's crazy.
- [70:17]
A
And they had heard some things. Like, I had kissed boys, and I had boyfriends, and I. I seriously, like, as a teenager, I would do everything I could to get my parents attention. Honestly.
- [70:28]
B
Yeah.
- [70:29]
A
Like, I. It's like, so crazy. But, like, I would go months not being at home, and my parents wouldn't even ask where I was. Like, I literally lived at my best friend's house, and her parents literally, like, would feed me and I would wear her clothes and go.
- [70:47]
B
It wasn't like they were. Your parents were super strict.
- [70:50]
A
No.
- [70:50]
B
Okay.
- [70:51]
A
But every sibling had a different parent. So, like, my older siblings, I feel like, had way more strict parents. But then with me being that middle child and I'm starting, like, they've had, you know, six more kids above me or whatever.
- [71:06]
B
Yeah.
- [71:06]
A
They start getting a little more lenient and also, like, overwhelmed.
- [71:10]
B
Right.
- [71:10]
A
And so it's like, how do you keep. I think they were just, like, happy if somebody was. They knew somebody was taking care of me.
- [71:16]
B
Yeah.
- [71:17]
A
And so it's just, like, crazy for me as a mother, looking back, I'm like, I can't even imagine not checking in on my kid. Like, I lived at my best friend's house.
- [71:25]
B
Yeah.
- [71:26]
A
And I also lived at my older sister's house. So my mom's oldest is my sister Camilla. And to this day, I call her Mama Cam because she helped raise me.
- [71:35]
B
Yeah.
- [71:36]
A
Like, she. I, like, it's like a weird dynamic with her because it's like she's my sister, but I also feel like a mother relation to her. I can't explain it. She is third. I think she turns 39.
- [71:51]
B
Okay.
- [71:52]
A
So she was 11 years older than me. Was. Is 11 years older than me. And so she really helped raise me and a lot of my siblings. And we would. She would have to take us under her wing all the time and, like, would take care of us when she got married and had her own family. And luckily she lived close by, and so she would really take care of us. So I was seriously at her house or my best friend's house, and it would be months without, like, finally, like, my mom or dad would call my sister and be like, have you seen Ashley?
- [72:23]
B
Yeah.
- [72:23]
A
And she's like, yeah, she's been at Kimry's house for a month.
- [72:27]
B
Right.
- [72:28]
A
Crazy.
- [72:29]
B
And then did any of your other siblings end up doing the multiple wives?
- [72:35]
A
Yes.
- [72:35]
B
Okay.
- [72:36]
A
So some of my siblings did end up living polygamy. Some of them ended up living plug me and actually ended up leaving. So I would say Most of my 45 siblings do not live polygamy, but there is like a good handful that do. But then there's also some that have left.
- [72:56]
B
So what is the most amount of wives that some of them have?
- [73:00]
A
Gosh, I don't know. Have any.
- [73:01]
B
Has it ever been more than the six that your dad had, do you think?
- [73:05]
A
Yeah, there's definitely, like, some that have had like, 10 wives. Like. Yeah, a lot of wives.
- [73:13]
B
And then a lot of your siblings have kids, I assume, right?
- [73:17]
A
Yeah.
- [73:18]
B
So the family's only getting bigger.
- [73:19]
A
Oh, yeah. I have a very big family.
- [73:22]
B
And then do you guys all get together?
- [73:24]
A
We. It's kind of sad because this last year we haven't done it, but we usually do like a sibling, like, family reunion.
- [73:33]
B
Yeah.
- [73:33]
A
Once a year where just the siblings get together. Okay. But it's hard because there's just like so much random stuff that's happening. Yeah. Kind of like divided us a little bit. And then everybody has their own lives. And does everyone still live in Utah? Not everybody, but most.
- [73:50]
B
Most do. Okay.
- [73:51]
A
Yeah. And what's crazy is, like, the first time I met a couple of my siblings was at my brother's funeral was the first time I had even met them.
- [74:00]
B
Yeah.
- [74:01]
A
And they were super cool. I'm like, you're my sister, you're cool. Or like, you're my brother, you're so cool. But I. I don't know if I ever would have met them if it wasn't for my brother passing. And when my brother died, I do feel like it brought my. Me and my siblings and my family really close for a while. But then, like, time has passed and it's been 10 years, and so everybody just kind of has their own lives. And I don't hold it against anybody. Like, everybody has their own families and it's hard to keep in touch with everybody. Yeah, it's just so hard to keep in touch with everybody.
- [74:37]
B
So did you end up leaving the religion?
- [74:40]
A
Yeah. So my husband and I were dating and we started dating when I was a junior in high school. And then right after I graduated and we were doing a long distance relationship because he had lived in Lehigh, Utah, and I lived in Mayfield, and we were about two Hours away from each other. So, like, every weekend, I would go up and drive to him because I'm like, there's way more stuff to do up there. I don't want to just, yeah, chill at my house. And honestly, like, I really hated being at my house after my brother passed. And when he passed, I actually ended up, like, moving out of my room. And we, at some point, my parents end up building this other tiny little, like, house thingy. And there was, like, a room at the top of the house. It was kind of like the bottom was, like, this office room for my dad. And then the upper room was, like, a bedroom. And so I ended up moving into that bedroom after he passed because I was like, I can't even be down here. And it's so, like, sad looking back because, like, even when I think of those memories, like, my room was always a mess. Like, I was never up on my laundry. Like, I would wear the same dirty clothes to school sometimes, and I'm like, I feel so embarrassed. Like, I would literally wear the same dirty clothes. Like, I didn't. I didn't know how to wash my laundry. And my mom had so many kids. Like, I can't even imagine trying to keep up on the laundry. And so when I moved out of there, it was just a freaking bomb. And, like, a couple of my siblings helped me move out of there. And I just remember being so embarrassed because I'm like, this is a freaking hole. Yeah, you're walking into, like, there's food plates everywhere and there's dirty clothes, and.
- [76:25]
B
You just weren't like, you.
- [76:27]
A
I just remember at one point, like, we had, like, mice, and there was, like, mouse poop in one of my drawers where my clothes were sitting. Like, looking back, I'm like, how the hell did I just, like, live that way? I don't know, but it's all I knew, right? And so I just remember being embarrassed, though. And we moved my. Then I moved into that room, and that's where I lived until I ended up moving out. So when my husband and I were dating, I would just go there every weekend if I could. I also had, like, a job at, like, a lots of matza pizza is what it was called. And I remember I ended up telling them, like, oh, I babysit on Saturdays because they always wanted me to work Saturdays. And that was the only time that I could see my boyfriend. And so I was like, oh, I can't work Saturdays because I, like, babysit or whatever. And the. Even, like, I've always just been such an honest person. So any little lie like that, I'm like, to this day, I'm like, I feel so guilty. I feel so guilty for lying about that. But I would go and visit him every weekend. He would hardly come down to me just because there wasn't really much to do. And he lived in, like, more of a, like, city area where there's, like, food places and things we can do and, like, friends up there. And.
- [77:42]
B
And what ended up happening with his family, I think that's what we were talking about too, with this.
- [77:46]
A
That kind of took some time. So, like, his. So his. Some people in his family were like, telling him, like, I will not let you be with her. She dresses immodestly. She has been, like, inappropriate with boys. And he just, like, didn't give a crap what they said about me. He was like, I can tell that she's a good person. I literally. And even if all those things were true, I literally don't care. And that's what he would tell me. He's like, I literally don't care.
- [78:18]
B
Now, would it upset you when you heard?
- [78:20]
A
Yes. It was so hard for me because when him and I started dating, I'm still grieving my brother. I'm still feeling guilt from that. I'm suicidal. And then I'm finding this boy who's, like, so kind to me, loves me for who I am. But then his family is like, screw you, girl. Like, you're not welcome there. There were some of his family members and some of his siblings that were very kind to me from the beginning, but there were some of them that were like, no, this is not going to happen. We will not allow him to be with you. And so that was so hard because I just wanted a face place that I felt like I belonged because I didn't feel close to my parents. And I felt this, like, disconnect with my family. And I was like, I just want, like, a family. Like, I just want to, like, feel like I belong somewhere. And these guys don't even want me. And. And I think I just stayed because Paul was just like, I love you for who you are. Like, they'll come. They'll come around. And I love you for who you are and your past. I don't care about your past. And so when we were dating, like, people would, you know, there were all kind of rumors flying around about me. And it's kind of like, I would say, like, a small town, if you even know, like, small town vibes. But, like, when you grow up in a small town. Like, everybody knows everything about everybody and everybody's talking.
- [79:44]
B
Yeah.
- [79:44]
A
And that's kind of how it is in, like, the polygamous community. It's like everybody knows everything about everybody, and they're. They'll be gossiping if they hear something. And so there was like. And like, some of the things that they would say. They're like, someone that knows the Matthews, as that was my last name. Someone that knows the Matthews really well, says this and this about Ashley. So, like, you shouldn't be with her. And he would just come and tell me. And he would feel bad telling me, but he would also feel bad, like, not telling me the things that people were saying. So he'd be like, this is being said about you. And even if it were true, I literally don't care. And so I was like. It was just shocking because, like, at this point, he's still wanting to be a polygamist, and I just don't feel like that's super common. It's kind of like, oh, you've kissed boys and you've had boyfriends, you've made out with boys and you've done all these things. Like, you're trash.
- [80:37]
B
Right. Like, it's either you're all in it or like, you're out.
- [80:40]
A
Yes, you're. You're trash. And so for him to just continually just reassure me, like, I don't care about your past. I love you for who you are, was so just refreshing. And honestly, it's crazy because I think even if he was a piece of, I would have stayed with him because I had no self worth and I didn't really know who I was. And so I just feel very lucky that he ended up being a good, understanding person. And I truly believe that we were meant to be together because, you know, and I believe that our brothers brought us together. And as crazy as it sounds, but. So when I graduated high school, he proposed to me a month later. And then two months after, we got married. So we were engaged for two months and then got married. Got married fresh out of high school, little 18 year old now.
- [81:35]
B
Did he have to get approval from your dad?
- [81:38]
A
Yes.
- [81:38]
B
Okay.
- [81:39]
A
Which. My dad ate that up. He was like, he's. He's in the same polygamous group as. As us. That's all I care about. Yeah, he. That's all he cared about. He made okay money.
- [81:49]
B
Yeah.
- [81:50]
A
And so he was like, oh, he makes money. He's in the same religion as us. Like, take her. Take her. Yeah. Take my daughter. Like I was saying too, like, I feel like I. It's just so weird because it's like at the end of the day, it would have been whatever, no matter who I ended up being with. But I think they were very happy that I ended up marrying a man that wanted to live polygamy.
- [82:12]
B
Yeah.
- [82:13]
A
But him and I, so like, they go through like a temple and when you get married, they have like a temple and you get sealed, and that's when you, like, get sealed for eternity and you have like eternal families. And him and I ended up not doing that. We. We didn't feel ready. We had been a little sexually active before we got married. And that's like a huge no, no if you want to go through the temple and get like sealed to each other. So we honestly just felt like guilty getting sealed because we had been, like, sexually active. And so we like held off. And so we just had like a civil, regular marriage ceremony. But because we were so young and didn't have a lot of money, I just feel lucky because, like, his sister, her in laws had like a beautiful backyard and they had had weddings there before and they let us do it there for free.
- [83:10]
B
That's awesome.
- [83:11]
A
So I felt so lucky looking back because I'm like, I probably would have just got like married in a church with like little to no decorations. And I just wanted to get married. So I was just like, as much as like, I had a dream of having this like, beautiful wedding. I also, growing up the way I did, I'm like, but that's not possible. So it's kind of like, even though we're getting civilly married, I can't expect this like, beautiful, amazing wedding because like, normally you wouldn't have that anyways, if that makes sense. So we got married and it was so crazy because the man that married us was like a man that is a polygamist in the group. And we always. It's called the group. Like a lot of times, if I ever say the group, I'm talking about the polygamous religion that I grew up in. It's called the group. And he was from the group and he married us. And when we. And I'm so sad, like, we didn't even say vows. So maybe one day we'll do that. Yeah, but we didn't even say marriage vows or anything because people were like, that's stupid.
- [84:17]
B
Like, and like, common in the religion.
- [84:21]
A
No, because you don't have. You don't have civil ceremonies. You just like get sealed in their temple usually. And so we had a civil ceremony and the guy that married us randomly stopped during the middle of the ceremony, pulled the mic away, and he leans into us and says, what you're doing right now doesn't matter unless you two live, like us, eternal life. Like, unless you guys make this real. And so he was like, telling us, like, if we do not live polygamy, this literally doesn't even matter. And looking back, I'm like, that is so crazy.
- [85:01]
B
Yeah.
- [85:02]
A
To just like, say to us in the middle of our ceremony. Right. And I remember my siblings asking me, like, what did he whisper to you guys? And I was like, oh, nothing. Like, I didn't really, like, tell people because I felt guilty. Guilty. I was already feeling guilty about having a civil ceremony and not going through their temple. So I was like, oh, nothing. Like, blah, blah.
- [85:22]
B
And it's like instilling fear.
- [85:24]
A
Fear. Oh, very fear based. It's like, if you don't do this, nothing else matters. And so that made us feel guilty. We're like, well, like, right? We're pieces of, like, what are we doing? And so luckily, like, we were able to have, like, a good honeymoon and people had given us, like, money at our wedding and, like, we went to Hawaii.
- [85:48]
B
Well, that's awesome.
- [85:49]
A
Yeah, we had, like, a good honeymoon and stuff.
- [85:51]
B
So you got married at what age? 18. Okay.
- [85:54]
A
Fresh out of high school.
- [85:55]
B
And he was 20.
- [85:56]
A
Yeah.
- [85:56]
B
Okay.
- [85:56]
A
Yep. The first year of our marriage, we were like, let's just be married. Let's not have kids. Which, like, also isn't super common. It's like, we were taught, like, to have as many kids as you can and to multiply and replenish the earth. Earth. Like, that's what it is. Like, having babies is multiplying and replenishing the earth. And so we were like, oh, like, I just kind of want to, like, enjoy each other just a little bit before we start a family. So we'll wait a year. Which honestly felt so long. It felt so long to wait a year to have kids. And so after a year, a year after we got married, we started trying for our first child and we got pregnant right away. And I had the worst pregnancy of my whole freaking life. Oh, gosh. I.
- [86:38]
B
Were you just six?
- [86:39]
A
Sick?
- [86:40]
B
Yeah.
- [86:40]
A
I had lost £20. I was. So before I got pregnant, I would say I was like 120 pounds. And then I lost 20 pounds. I was 100 pounds, 20 weeks pregnant.
- [86:56]
B
You couldn't keep anything down.
- [86:58]
A
No. And like, it wasn't even that I was puking all the time because I wasn't Pukey. I've never been, like, a pukey person, but it was like I always had this constant nausea that never went away, and it suppressed my appetite.
- [87:09]
B
Right. You just didn't want to eat.
- [87:10]
A
And then I would try and eat, and it's like I would feel full. It was like I couldn't get food down. And I look back at my doctor, I'm like, you're an idiot.
- [87:20]
B
Yeah.
- [87:20]
A
It's like, how did they not. Like, they weigh you every time you come in.
- [87:24]
B
Right?
- [87:24]
A
And I'm like, how are they not seeing that I was losing all this weight? Like, they never said anything to me. And I was so sick, and it was my first pregnancy.
- [87:32]
B
Were you sick the whole way through?
- [87:34]
A
Yes, until I gave birth. Until the day I gave birth. And I was just, like, deathly ill. And I. It was my first pregnancy. I was so young, and I just didn't even know any different. Yeah, I didn't realize. I was like. I guess, like, being pregnant just sucks.
- [87:49]
B
Yeah.
- [87:49]
A
And so had the worst pregnancy of my life.
- [87:53]
B
Now, did you give birth in the hospital?
- [87:55]
A
Yes.
- [87:56]
B
Okay.
- [87:56]
A
So I went back and forth because home births are super common, right. In the religion that I grew up in. And there's actually, like, really awesome midwives in the polygamous religion that I grew.
- [88:08]
B
Up in because it's more common.
- [88:09]
A
They're devoted to it. They. They dedicate their lives to, like, being midwives, and they're really good at it, and they have, like, all the things that you need. And so I went back and forth, but then I was like, I don't know how my birth will go.
- [88:22]
B
Yeah. And so she was so sick the whole time.
- [88:24]
A
Yes. I was like, I've been so sick sick, I don't know how my birth will go. And so I want to at least have one hospital birth and see how it goes. And so everybody kept telling me, like, it's your first baby. You'll go overdue, and it'll be the longest labor of your life. So I'm just, like, young, naive, sick on my deathbed, and I'm like, I'm not having this baby anytime soon. Joke's on me. Joke is on me because at 36 weeks and four days, I was having the worst back pain of my life. And I ended up calling my sister Camilla Mama Cam. And I was like, I just have really bad back pain, so I'm gonna hop in the bathtub and just see what happens. Like, see if I can relieve pain, basically. And so she's like, okay, let me know how it goes, like, really, like, as I'm telling you this, like, Camilla is who I would go to. Like, if I. Like, I feel like normally you'd go to your mom and you'd call her and say that, but, like, I've just haven't had that connection with my mom.
- [89:27]
B
Yeah.
- [89:28]
A
And I wouldn't even say it's because my mom's this terrible mom. It's just like, there's so much that goes into it. And, like, I have a lot of compassion for her because she was literally groomed at 17 to marry this older man, and that's all she's ever known. And her parents also lived polygamy, and she had an emotionally unavailable mother. And so even though I feel like it's like, not normal or. Okay, I have a lot of compassion.
- [89:52]
B
Yeah.
- [89:52]
A
But anyways, I would always call Mama Cam if I ever needed anything. And I hopped in the tub, and like, two minutes later, I start feeling this insane pain. And I'm like, what is going on? All of a sudden, I hear a pop, and I feel my baby drop. And I'm like, I literally heard a pop. I was like, what the crap is going on?
- [90:20]
B
And this is all while you're in the tub.
- [90:22]
A
Yes. Alone, naked in a tub. And I hop out of the tub and I call my sister back. I'm like, camilla, I just heard, like, a weird pop in the tub and I felt a weird pain. And she was like, ashley, your water broke. And I was like, there's literally no way my water broke. And she was like, yeah, I did. She was like, put a pad on. Lay down on your bed and see what happens. So I put a pad on and I laid on my bed, and I'm just staying on the phone with her. And after a couple minutes of talking, she's like, now stand up and see what happens. I stood up, water gushing everywhere, full on, everywhere. And I'm, like, panicking. I'm like, no, I'm not ready. I'm like, 36 weeks and four days. I'm like, not even full term. I'm like, no, I'm not ready. This is not happening. And she was like, you need to call Paul and get to the hospital. And she lives two hours from me.
- [91:19]
B
Right.
- [91:19]
A
Because when Paul and I got married, I ended up moving up north.
- [91:23]
B
Okay.
- [91:24]
A
Like, I don't. I kind of missed that. But I moved up north when I was 17, almost 18, to be, like, with him. And then we got married soon after I had moved up. So I lived in that, like, lehish area. And my sister still lived in Mayfield. That was two hours away, so I didn't even have her.
- [91:43]
B
Yeah.
- [91:44]
A
And so she was like, you need to call Paul and tell him so you can get to the hospital. And I was like, no, please don't hang up on me. So she called her Alexa, and she was like, alexa, call Paul. So she's still on the phone with me, has her Alexa call my husband. And she's like, paul, Ashley's water broke. You need to get to the hospital. And he was like, are you sure? Like, I've heard that, like, sometimes you think your water broke, but it didn't actually break. And she's like, no, it broke. It's gushing everywhere. Like, she's having contractions now, and you need to get to the hospital. And Paul was working an hour away from me. So luckily, my sister, that's like my best friend, she's five years older than me from my mom. She lives in Montana, but she was visiting because a bunch of us sisters were actually supposed to be going on, like, a sister's trip to St. George. And that's why she was down. I ended up ruining the whole trip. It didn't end up happening because I went into labor, but she was staying at another sister's house from another mom that was just five minutes away. So Camilla called Heather, my sister, and was like, heather, Ashley's in labor. You need to go pick her up. And so she left her kids with that sister, came to pick me up, but my house is locked. I'm butt naked, having contractions two minutes apart.
- [93:03]
B
Oh, God.
- [93:04]
A
And so she's panicking, she's banging on the door because she's thinking, I'm giving birth.
- [93:10]
B
In there. By yourself?
- [93:10]
A
In there by myself. Because she knew that my contractions were close together. And she's given birth before, so she was, like, freaking out. And it's also like my first birth. So she's like, oh, my sister, like, she's having her first baby. So she's excited and she's just banging on the door. And so I have to walk down my stairs having the worst contractions of my life, unlock the door, had to walk back up to get dressed. And she just threw a dress over me.
- [93:37]
B
Yeah.
- [93:38]
A
And so she just threw a dress over me. We hopped in the car, and we're driving there, and I am just breathing through my contractions. How far was the hospital? The hospital was, like 25 minutes away.
- [93:49]
B
Okay. Probably felt like a lifetime.
- [93:50]
A
It felt like a lifetime. And in the car, it Made the contractions worse. And so I am just. But I did like some hypnobirthing classes. It kind of helps like you learn how to breathe through contractions because I was still like, I might still have like an unmedicated birth, even though it's a hospital birth.
- [94:07]
B
Yeah.
- [94:07]
A
But I'll just be play by air and see how it goes. So I wanted to be able to like breathe correctly and do those things. And I remember at one point the contraction was so strong on the drive that I started like high pitch squealing. It made it hurt so much worse that I just went back into the zone and I was just like deep breathing through the contractions and I realized that made them so much more bearable. And then we get there and it's so crazy because my husband got there the exact same time as we did. He pulled up right behind us. He was. He was hauling ass. And he had carpooled with someone to work, so he had to take their car. And so they get a wheelchair. They wheelchair me in. And mind you, I did not look full term. I was sick the whole time.
- [94:53]
B
Right, you lost.
- [94:53]
A
I was tiny. I had finally gained back at the end of my pregnancy. It got a little better, but I was still sick. But I had gained back the weight that I had lost plus 15 more pounds. So still not a ton in pregnancy. I was only 15 pounds above my birth weight. And I also just carry small as it is. So they will me in. And they're like, confused. Are you sure? Yeah, they're like, are you sure? And they're like, yes, she's in labor. And so then they check me and I don't know if, you know, dilations or anything like that, but they like, you dilate from like a 0 to a 10, and then once you're at a 10, you push your baby out. So they checked me and I was a five. And she's like, oh, okay, you are in active labor. So then she leaves. And the second she left, I like got up and I was like, I got a poop. And my sister's like, that's not a poop, that's a baby. And so she was like, that is like a huge sign that you're going to be pushing a baby out soon. Which is crazy because they had just checked me and I was a five. So she went, ran back out and got the nurse and she was like, you need to check her again. And they're like, we just checked her. And she was like, she's saying that she needs to Poop. You need to check her. And she was like kind of having to, like, argue with them back and forth. So then she checks me and she's like, oh, you're almost a 10. Like, we gotta get you in the delivery room. This literally is like a movie. So they get me on a wheelchair and they're just hauling down the hall to get me into the room. And I am trying not to push. Like, I can feel this, like, intense urge to push.
- [96:29]
B
And a baby is literally on their way out.
- [96:31]
A
Yes. And a baby on their way out. So then we get in there and my doctor hasn't even made it yet. And so the nurse is thinking, like, I'm gonna have to deliver this baby. She's like, don't push. Telling me not to push. And for me, I'm like, telling someone not to push when they feel that urge is like telling someone not to puke when they're puking. That's how it felt for me. I'm like, I have to. I don't have a choice. Like, this baby's coming out of me. And so there ended up being a midwife there. And she came in the room and they just grabbed my legs. And my brother's sister worked at the hospital. She ended up being able to come in right as it was happening. She held my leg, Paul held my other leg and I pushed her out. In two seconds, she just flew out of me. And that is crazy. I was like, oh, my gosh. This. Like, we looked at each other and we're like, what just happened? And she was perfectly healthy, no NICU time, nothing. And she was a little five pound, seven ounce baby. And I just remember, like, when I held her for the first time, it was like this instant bond. And I was like, my, this is my life. This is my purpose. This is. I. I needed you. And I'm just ugly sobbing. Ugly sobbing. And after having our daughter, we still were like, going to live polygamy through all this. Like, we're still, like, battling back and forth. We're still going to church every Sunday because they go to church every Sunday. We were still going to church. And, like, they have like, priesthood meetings at the beginning of, like, in the morning of Sundays that, like, the men will get together. And so, like, Paul would go to priesthood meetings and we would go to church and we were still, like, planning on living polygamy. I think it was like, we always kind of struggled with it and didn't necessarily want to live it, but we didn't feel like we had a choice.
- [98:32]
B
Yeah. And I feel like, too, like, if you don't know any other way, it's kind of like sometimes I feel like it probably just seems easier to stick with.
- [98:39]
A
Yeah. And it was hard for us because we were, like, didn't want to disappoint the people that we love because, like, even though there's so many things with the polygamous religion that I don't agree with, there's so many good people in it.
- [98:51]
B
Yeah. And the community.
- [98:53]
A
Like, the community. And, like, we didn't want to disappoint people that we love and care about. And so it was like, this battle that we had. And, like, Paul wanted to be with his brother again. And if we didn't live that way, right there, we were told that he would never see his brother again. And he would always just say, I have to do this for him. I have to do this for my brother. And so, yeah, we. But after we had our daughter, that's when my shift really changed, and I think his did, too. I was like, she can't live that way.
- [99:26]
B
Right.
- [99:27]
A
I don't want her to be married to some man that has multiple wives and doesn't give a about her. Like, she deserves someone that cares about her. Like, you care about me. And, like, what is that dynamic going to change if we get other wives? Is your caring for me going to change? And, like, how are you supposed to care for these other women and you're going to get them pregnant and have children with them when this was such a special experience for us? So that started making me feel sick because I'm like, we had that experience of giving birth and him being there. I thought he wasn't going to make it. I was so thankful he was there. And it was the most beautiful spiritual experience I've ever had. And I was like, you're gonna go do that with another woman now? That makes me sick. And I would tell him this, and he was like, I know, but, like, we have to. Like, I don't know what we're supposed to do. Like, if we want to live with our loved ones when we die and with our daughter Brookie, like, if we want her to be with us for eternity, like, then we have to live this way. So we both would just, like, battle back and forth. It was, like, so hard.
- [100:39]
B
So what is the mindset around? Like, why do they. In the religion, do they think that you should or need to have multiple wives? Like, what? Is there, like, a reason behind that?
- [100:49]
A
Honestly, I don't really know. Part of it is because it's like, you're supposed to multiply and replenish the earth. Okay, so you're having all these children, and that's multiplying and replenishing the earth. Also, like, way back in the LDS Church, in Mormonism, like, the prophets. Those prophets all lived polygamy. Like, it was just something that, like, carried on through the religion. But like I said, wait, like, years ago, the LDS Church decided we're not living this way anymore. But then people still believe that they should. And both of your family, there is, like, a whole belief system through it, and they see that there's, like, scriptures that say that you're supposed to live polygamy, and there's like, all these things, but I don't know. It's like, Yeah, I don't know the exact reasoning for it.
- [101:39]
B
So how long after you gave birth did you guys decide to leave?
- [101:43]
A
So it was like. I feel like it was years of a mental battle that we went through. I think after we. After we had her, we both could agree, I don't want her living that way. But then it was the battle of, then what the freak are we supposed to do? Because this is the truth. Like, we were taught that we were the chosen ones, that this was the one true gospel and religion. And if you are to leave that, being one of the chosen ones and being born into it, like, you will be damned for it. And so it was, like, so hard for us. And I think it took us, like, researching more and, like, starting to do our own research out of, like, what they would tell us to research and doing those things to realize, like, okay, like, it's kind of crazy that we actually grew up this way. And, like, there's only, like, a few thousand of us, but there's like, 8 billion people in the world. And I think there was just, like, these random things that would start to run through our mind. Like, there's 8 billion people in the world, but we were the chosen ones. And so I honestly, like, I think I started getting. Because I'm such an honest, like, upfront person, I started being like, no, I actually am feeling like this is wrong. Like, I cannot stand to have our daughter live this way. Like, the thought of her living this way makes me sick to my stomach. And he would agree, but he would still, like, he could never tell me, like, but I don't believe it. It took him years to like, finally be like, yeah, I don't believe this. And this. I do think this is wrong. And I. That we shouldn't be Living this way.
- [103:28]
B
Yeah.
- [103:29]
A
But I think for him it was like he had that mental battle with losing his brother, not being able to see him again if we didn't live this way. And he's also just like a very big people pleaser and like, for the people he loves, he just wants them to be happy. And he just wants. He is truly, like the most amazing. Truly the most amazing man. And I'm like, where the hell did you come from? Yeah, truly. I'm like, where did you come from? How did I get you? I'm so lucky because like I said, I really think that I would have. I would have been with anybody, somebody that was abusing me, somebody. It wouldn't have mattered because I had no self worth. And I just wanted somebody to love me. I just wanted somebody to take me, somebody to love me, somebody to care for me. And so I think that it took, you know, having our daughter, and then as the years went by, I just think it was a slow process of slowly leaving and not going to church. But I will say, after we had our daughter, that is the last time we went to church.
- [104:31]
B
Okay?
- [104:31]
A
Once we had her, we stopped going to church. But then it was still like. And you're feeling this tug, like, maybe we should start going back to church again. And like, people would tell us, like, you need to be going to church. And we felt all this pressure from people being like, you guys need to get your crap together and like, start going to church and like, get sealed to each other. And like, you guys have a kid now, you know, you guys need to be like, go through the temple and get sealed and do these things. And like, we didn't even do like a baby blessing for her, which is like, you always do a baby blessing. And I think that because I didn't get her a baby blessing, I ended up struggling with some, like, religious ocd. So I didn't realize until I started having kids that I always kind of struggled with religious ocd. And that's kind of like, if there was anything that made me uncomfortable or anything like that, I would just have to pray over and over and over and over again. Like, even when Paul and I were dating, I was so scared that I would lose him that multiple times a day I would pray to God and beg him not to take him from me. And if I didn't, then there was a chance Paul would leave. Yeah, then Paul would leave if I didn't do that. And it kind of started with things like that, or if, like, I didn't even Realize. But even when I was younger, like, if I was scared of something, I would have to pray over and over and over and over again. And if I didn't, then that thing would happen. And. And so then after I had my daughter, I kept feeling like she was going to die. I just kept having this, like, scary fear that she was just going to die. And so I would pray every single night, please don't take her away from me. And that was so, like, mentally draining. But it almost became, like, a routine. Like, please don't take my daughter away from me. But then when I had my second. So then I ended up having another baby. And it's so crazy because, like, all of my birth stories are actually insane. So I ended up having him at the hospital, too, because I was just. I went back and forth again, and I was just like, I don't know if I'm brave enough to have a home birth. And so I ended up having him at the hospital, and he came so quick that I ended up giving birth to him in the hospital bathtub. And my best friend caught him because.
- [106:53]
B
The doctor didn't get.
- [106:54]
A
And there was no nurse around. So I, like, had hopped in the bathtub because I was like, oh, like, you know, the bathtub broke my water last time. Like, I want to try that again. And I got in the bathtub and. Did you even have to push? It's. Yeah, but it's like, I push, but, like, my body's kind of forcing me to. And I kind of have to, like, breathe, like, my baby out. It's, like, weird. Like, I don't have a choice. Yeah. I don't know. At least out of me. Yes, I'm very thankful.
- [107:25]
B
Oh, my God.
- [107:25]
A
But so I, like. Yeah, I got in the tub, and it just progressed things so fast. And my friend. My best friend Addie, her mom is actually a midwife.
- [107:35]
B
Okay.
- [107:36]
A
And so. And Addie's, like, from the same polygamous religion as me, and so she, like, had been to a lot of births, and I was like. It was. So this was 20, 21. There was still some, like, Covid stuff going on. And so I could only have. Every hospital was different, and I was thankful because they made my husband just a part of me. Like, he didn't count as, like, so someone that I'm inviting. Okay. So he was just a part of me. And then I could invite two other people. I know some hospitals. It was like, you can only have one person or no people. But so I invited her. And I'm so Glad that I did, because Paul was behind me in the tub, pushing on my back, helping me through the contractions, not realizing that I'm pushing our baby out. Like, he has no freaking idea. Neither did I, truly. But Addie saw, like, my water break, break. She's like, I think your water just broke. I'm gonna go get the nurse. So she ran out, and then she hears me, like, heavy breathing, and, like, I was so loud. And so she ran back in because she knew. Like, she told the nurse, and the nurse was like, oh, we'll get towels, and we'll get her out. And Addie heard me, and she said, nope, it's happening right now. And she booked it in, walked in, caught him as I was pushing him out.
- [108:46]
B
Crazy.
- [108:46]
A
I would have literally, like, had to have caught my own baby in the tub. And she wasn't there.
- [108:50]
B
Right.
- [108:51]
A
And then, like, the nurse came in, and it was crazy because, like, you're not supposed to give birth in the tubs.
- [108:57]
B
Yeah.
- [108:58]
A
So, like, they were, like, worried. They were, like, freaking out. There were so many people in the room. It was nuts. But after I had my son, I think I feel like after every kid, it just leaned us further and further away. But, like, after. So before I had my son, I feel like we were like, okay, we're not living this way, whatever. But there was still that. That guilt and kind of, like, oh, like, still struggling a little bit. And I feel like it took, like, each time I had a kid to be like, now I have a son, and I'm like, well, I don't want him to be a polygamist. Like, I want to raise him to, like, be a good. And not that, like, all the polygamists are terrible men, because I'm not saying that, but, like, I want to raise him to, like, care for. Care for his person and be a good man. And so after I had him, though, like, I feel like after I had my daughter, I was, like, in pure bliss. I had a little bit of anxiety, but it was fine. I actually got on some, like, anxiety meds. Everything was great. And. But then when I had my son, I feel like right after I gave birth, I instantly had some, like, postpartum depression. Like, the hormone shift did something, and I didn't feel as bonded because of the depression, and that was so hard on me mentally, because I was like, am I just. Like, I've been so scared that I'm not gonna love a second kid as much as my first, And I'm like, I know that's not what it is, but, like, why am I not feeling that same? Like, oh, the instant he's on my chest, that bond. And later it was. I realized it was because, like, that postpartum depression kicked in right after I gave birth, and it was really hard to, like, work through. And, like, Paul. And, like, another thing, too, is, like, mental health, depression, anxiety, that is so heavily swept under the rug and not talked about in the religion that we grew up in. And so it was kind of like, just deal with it. Like, you don't get help. You don't talk about it. And so I was, like, going through that. And, like, Paul has never dealt with depression or anxiety. He's like one of those lucky people that just, like, lives. Lives blissfully.
- [111:11]
B
Yeah.
- [111:12]
A
Doesn't have. Like, he doesn't know what anxiety feels like. And so it was just like, I felt like I could go to him for things, but it was like, almost like, who. You're also not even gonna understand. Like, you don't know what it's like to give birth. You don't know what it's like to, like, go through postpartum. But I remember one night, like, my baby was super colicky, too, which I think really surfaced my depression. And one night, he was just screaming and crying, and Paul was trying to help me with him because he. I couldn't get him to stop crying, and I just, like, fell to the ground in an anxiety attack. And I just was sobbing and sobbing, and he just held me, and he was like, I'm so sorry. Like, he comforted me. And after that, that's when I finally admitted and said to somebody, like, I'm struggling and I'm not okay. But even he was, like, didn't know what to do. Like, what do you do when someone's not okay? Like, when they're struggling, right? And he didn't know what to do. So he just kept trying to help me more and kept taking the baby more. But also, I was breastfeeding. And so it was like, what can he really do? Like, I would try to pump so he could give him a bottle, but pumping is a chore, so I'm like, I'll just latch him on. Like, pumping is annoying. And so he tried his best to just, like. Like, help me as much as he could. But finally, eventually, I ended up opening up to my sister and a couple of my sisters and then my sis. I actually had a sister living with me because I feel like as. As all of us siblings got older, we would kind of take the younger siblings under our Wing and kind of, like, help take care of them. So I told this sister, my sister Nikki, I was like, like, I am struggling. And she was like, we're calling your doctor tomorrow. And so she pretended to be me because I was too anxious to even call my doctor. And she was like, hi, this is Ashley. I'm struggling with my postpartum, and I need medication or whatever. And so because I had been on the medication before, they, like, prescribed it to me right away. But then they still wanted to meet up with me. But they were able to prescribe it to me right away, and I was able to pick it up. But I don't know if I, like, would have. It's so crazy because, like, after losing my brother, mental health has become a huge part of my story. And so I was like. I remember in the hospital, they were like, if you're struggling, like, let. Like, they had me fill out this whole form, and they're like, if you're struggling mentally, like, reach out. And I was like, I got this in the bag. Like, yeah, I know. How I know this. I, like, lost my brother to suicide. Like, not saying that to them, but obviously thinking this in my head. Like, I have this in the bag.
- [113:56]
B
Yeah.
- [113:57]
A
And then when I was struggling, I couldn't reach out. And it's like, it's so hard when you're in that place mentally to reach out.
- [114:05]
B
Well, they're also such different things that I'm sure that in your mind, you're like, I went through something horrible. Having a baby's good, so why would.
- [114:13]
A
I supposed to be good? I'm not supposed to. Supposed to be struggling. This is, like, a happy time of my life, but it goes. I'm not supposed to be struggling. So you, like, brush yourself off. And so when I got on that medication, it really helped with, like, intrusive thoughts I was having, because I would have, like, these dark, intrusive thoughts, and it helped push those away. And I feel like things got a little bit better. But then I started getting chronic migraines. So I started having migraines. I would have a migraine like, 15 to 20 times in a month. And so I basically was just like, a living, walking migraine. And, like, I knew it had to do with my hormones. Like, something was off, and that was so hard to go through. And that went on for about nine months, and it got better. But, like, I compare migraines to mental illness in the way that, like, if you've never had a migraine or you don't deal with that Pain. Like, people kind of just like, brush it off and they can't see that you're struggling. Because, like, when I had my migraines, it was like, I have to keep being a mom and living my life. So I would just, like, be, like, taking, like, I would take Excedrin and drink a soda, and that's like, what would help. But I. I would still be in pain, but I'm really good at just, like, brushing it off and acting like I'm okay, so I would just act like I'm okay. Same thing with mental illness. Like, you act like you're okay and you're not. And so that was like. I just feel like going through those things, though, of really. I just feel like every hard thing that I go through really makes me a more compassionate, understanding person. And you always think it won't happen to you until it does. So, like, stay humble. Like, you never know what life is going to throw at you. And it's just like, I think it's so easy for people to just, like, judge and be like, I would do this or I would do that, or I would never do that. And it's like, you don't know until you're going through the thing that you're going through, what it will be like. So just, like, be kind to people. But, like, after. So after all this is going on, me and my sisters actually ended up starting a clothing boutique, and it was called Dear Sister Boutique and had Dear Sister with a semicolon and the semicolon. The reason why we had that there is. Have you ever heard of the Semicolon Project or, like, Project Semicolon? So, like, a semicolon is placed in a sentence when the sentence could have ended, but it kept going on. And, like, you are the sentence and the story is your life. And I think that that's so empowering and so cool because, like, I have been at those low places like my brother was, and I could have ended my life like he did, but I didn't. And I'm so thankful that I didn't, because my life now is so completely different than my life was when I was. I was that young and going through those hard things. So, like, life gets better, and it. It can feel like there's no light at the end of the dark tunnel that you're in, but it gets better. And so we had a clothing boutique for a few years, and it was a really big part of our healing journey. Like, we don't do it anymore, but it was a huge part of Our healing journey. And we actually would do fundraisers for families that would lose their loved ones to suicide. Suicide. And the first fundraiser that we did, and this is where I say, like, I've had some weird, like, spiritual experiences with my brother that people would say is crazy. But I'm like, explain this to me, right? Explain how this happened. So, like, when we were having our boutique, I remember there was one day I was, like, rocking my daughter to sleep for a nap, and I thought she was asleep, and all of a sudden she, like, shot up, and she, like, looks in the corner of the room and she's just giggling. And I felt this, like, love for my brother. I don't know how to explain it. I felt like he was with me. And after that happened, I, like, ended up calling my sister, and I was like, I feel like we need to be, like, doing a fundraiser or something with our boutique. Like, there's so much good that we could do with this, and I feel like we need to do a fundraiser or something, but I don't know what for. And she was like, maybe like, something with suicide awareness or something. And I was like, yeah. And then a few days later, I see all over social media that this boy had taken his life. And this was like, I want to say 2019. So it had been a few years since my brother passed. It was like 2018, 2019. My daughter, I think, was a year old, so I think it was 2019. So it'd been a few years since my brother Ammon had passed. And then this boy, a few towns away from us, had taken his life. And I. The second I saw, I was like, we need to do a fundraiser for their family. We need to reach out and see if they will let us do a fundraiser. And so we reached out and his mom said yes. And so that was, like, our first fundraiser that we did. So we, like, in the future, we ended up making, like, special shirts for the family, but we just sold our clothes. And then any profit that we made, we just gave to the family. And it's so crazy because that boy ended up taking his life in February, too. I think it was, like, February 5th or something. I don't know the exact date. And so it was the same month as my brother. And then after the fundraiser was over, I came down on my. To, like, visit my brother's grave at his death anniversary. And when I came down, we're like, this is the perfect time to bring her the check. So it ended up being on my brother's death anniversary that we Ended up bringing her the check. And I think that was super healing for us because it was like. It's just, like, a way to honor our brother. And when we got there, we started, like, explaining to her what we do and who our brother was. And she was like, wait. Ammon Matthews, my son was friends with him. And then we moved a few years. Like, we moved a few years, but they went to middle school together, and they were friends. And all of us just got chills and started sobbing because we were like, no freaking way. And so that was, like, kind of, like a crazy cool experience that we had. And so since losing my brother, I have just, like, tried to do things in, like, a healing way. And, like, things that have helped me heal is, like, doing acts of kindness for people. And so what actually started all of this is, like, so when I. I'm just gonna start, I'm like, how do I begin this? So one year, for my birthday, I was like, birthdays kind of suck. Like, as you get older, birthdays suck. And I had seen some woman post, like, a blog saying that for, like, her 30th birthday, she did 30 acts of kindness. And so I was like, I kind of want to do that for my birthday. Like, I want to do. I think I was turning 21, and I was like, I want to do 20. 20 or. Yeah, 21. I was turning 21. I was like, I want to Do 21 random acts of kindness and give, like, gifts to random people, like, maybe people I know and strangers. And I did that, and I was like, that was the best birthday I've ever had. Like, giving to other people, like, felt amazing to me. And then my brother's birthday came up because his birthday is in June and my birthday's in April. And I was like that. Like, I wonder if I, like, started doing that for his birthday, like, if that would be healing to start doing that for his birthday. So then the first year, I did, like, he was turning, like, I don't even know what age, and I did, like, that many acts of kindness for people. And then I kind of started turning it into, like, his favorite color was blue. And so I would do acts of blue and so on. Like, the little note of gifts that I would give to people. It would be, like, in a blue bag with, like, blue tissue paper, and the note would say, in case you're feeling blue today, here's this round of act of kindness, and I hope that you pass it on. And it would just be, like, things that are blue or just, like, other Random things in it. And so now I do that in honor of my brother. I'll do Random Acts of Blue, and I'll do it on his death anniversary, and I'll do it on his birthday and just randomly throughout the year. And that is just something that has been so healing for me, and, like, I involve my kids in it, and my kids love it. And I am just, like, so glad that I get to, like, teach my kids about mental health awareness and, like, healthy ways to cope. And, like, in the hard things, like, when I lost my brother, like, I would literally just turn on songs that would make me think of him and cry. And, like, I do that to this day. Like, if there's something that I'm struggling with or something hard that I go through through, I will, like, purposely make myself listen to songs that will make me, like, feel sad about the situation, and I'll just cry. And it's been. That helps me so much because you can get it out because, like, you have to feel to heal. And if you're repressing all these feelings, like, you're never gonna work through it. And so as hard as it is. And I think people are like, just don't cry and just be strong. But it's like, I think it's very strong to cry, too, and it's very vulnerable to cry, because, like, I think that's a huge thing that everybody around the world, they're just like, oh, I'm embarrassed. Like, sorry I'm crying. And, like, I used to apologize for crying. And, like, even when I was just telling you the story of my brother passing, like, normally I would have apologized, like, sorry, I'm kind of crying. And, like, I don't apologize for anymore because it's vulnerable, and it's almost stronger to cry because it, like, takes a lot of, like, strength to cry. And I think sometimes it's easier for people to hold it in. But in the end, like, you're not healing because you're not feeling. And I truly believe that with all my heart that you have to feel to heal.
- [124:23]
B
I agree.
- [124:24]
A
Yeah.
- [124:24]
B
It's very true. So you had your son, and then how far after did you have your third kid?
- [124:32]
A
Okay, so all my kids are, like, exactly, like, three months and a month apart.
- [124:37]
B
Okay.
- [124:38]
A
They just ended up being pretty, like, the exact same age apart. So my daughter, my oldest, Brookie, turns seven in a couple of weeks. She's. Yeah, just a week apart from my husband's birthday. And then my second oldest, Cash, he turns four in July.
- [125:00]
B
Okay.
- [125:01]
A
And then I had my third in September. So girl or boy? Boy. So I have girl, boy, boy. And my third is eight months old now. And I actually ended up having a home birth with him. Really? After I had, like, my two hospital births. Well, like, after my second birth, and my best friend ended up catching him. That's twice now that my doctor didn't make it to my. Yeah, you're like, I can do this. I was like, why am I not having a home birth? Like, what am I doing? And, like, Paul's aunt is, like, a super awesome midwife. And I was like, I feel comfortable with her. Like, I really feel comfortable with her. I. I feel like she knows what she's doing. And so I was like, I am just gonna, like, ask her if I can have a home birth and if she'll be my midwife. And so I ended up having a home birth with my third. I didn't decide until halfway through because I was still kind of being a chicken. And I was trying to decide, and I was like, ashley, your best friend caught your baby last time. You could probably try. I might accidentally have birth in the car. I'm like, I would rather have a home birth than give birth in the car. Yeah. So I ended up having my home birth, and it was so cool. Like, such a cool experience. Everything went amazing. Of course, my labor went super quick again.
- [126:19]
B
That's amazing.
- [126:20]
A
Like, this is like, you'll probably appreciate this because it has to do with my dog. So, like, I'm just, I guess, going to tell all my birth story times. But so with this. So with all my babies, I get a lot of pre labor, and it's kind of like preparing you for labor, but you're not in labor, and you'll have contractions and cramping and all these things. And I do that with all my births. And so with him, I kept getting some pre labor, and I was like, oh, okay. This usually happens for a week or two before I have my baby, but it, like, dilates me. It slowly dilates me. And I think that's why I have quick births, too, because I slowly get dilated to like, a four or five, and then I'm finally in active labor and I just go. But it was so weird the days leading up to giving birth to him, though, because there was, like a full moon. And every night at one in the morning, my dog would start barking in her kennel, and I'm like, what is she doing? Like, she loves to sleep in there. She never, like, barks in the night. Like, Right. She goes through the whole night. And so I would, like, get up and I would take her potty. And all of a sudden I would feel like, oh, I'm having some contractions. And then I'd be like, is labor starting? And she would run out and just start howling at the moon. And she's not even a big barker. Yeah. And she would just howl at the moon. I'm like, are you a freaking wolf? Like, what is going on? It's like, so in the middle of the night, and I'm tired, and I'm just like, what the crap? Then I, like, go to bed because my contraction stopped. I felt a couple of them. They stopped. And then the next night, the same thing happened. Around one in the morning, she starts getting weird in her kennel again. And so I let her out, and she's howling at the moon. And I'm crazy, having contractions. I'm like, what the hell is going on? Yeah. And that happened for, like, three nights where this same exact thing happened. And so I kept feeling silly doggy. Speaking of dogs, are you, like, getting involved in my conversation?
- [128:23]
B
Yeah. She's like, I'm gonna come over.
- [128:25]
A
Oh, I know. How. At the moon.
- [128:27]
B
Yeah.
- [128:28]
A
That is crazy. But so then I kept thinking, like, I'm gonna go in labor in the middle of the night. I just know what's gonna happen. And that's what ended up happening. And guess what time it was? 1 in the freaking morning.
- [128:40]
B
That is how many days after.
- [128:42]
A
It had been, like, three or four days. I can't remember the exact days. It was like a few days of my dog doing this. And it was like a special moon. I can't remember what moon it was.
- [128:50]
B
Yeah.
- [128:50]
A
You know, I thought it was those random, right?
- [128:51]
B
Yeah. Super.
- [128:52]
A
It was so bright out outside. It, like, didn't seem like night. It was so bright out. That is crazy. And it was like that for days in a row. It was so weird.
- [129:01]
B
So your dog could.
- [129:02]
A
I need to, like, look back and Google, like, what moon happened on this date. But it was some kind of special moon. And it was honestly so weird. But that's crazy. I ended up going into labor at one in the morning, and I was like, okay, is this real?
- [129:15]
B
Right?
- [129:16]
A
And so they were, like 10 minutes apart, which is kind of far apart. And so I was like, maybe it's not real. And it's, like, still pre labor. So I, like, got up, and I was like, I'm just going to get up and see if they pick up. And I got up, and they started Picking up. And so I was like, okay, still kind of in denial. Don't want to wake Paul up. But like I like need his help through the contractions. Cuz he'll like push on my back and it like takes like almost all the pain away. Like it helps so much with the way that he like would pressure on my back and then me breathing through him. So I waited a little bit. It was probably almost an hour. And like I feel like time flies when you're in labor. I'm just like, where did the time go? An hour or so goes by and finally I'm like, no, these are really strong and I need his help. Like this is getting hard to do this by myself. And so I ended up waking him up and I was like, I need your help through these contractions. They're so strong. And so he starts helping me through them. And they were about six minutes apart, which still wasn't super close. Like with my other babies when they felt this was like two.
- [130:18]
B
Right.
- [130:18]
A
They were like two minutes apart when they felt felt this strong. But like these contractions were also longer. Like they were lasting longer than my other two babies. Like my other babies would last like 60 seconds and then they would stop and then every two minutes it was 60 seconds. These were like a minute and a half, like 90 seconds long. And so they were a lot longer and super strong, but more spread out. It was different than my other two births. So I was like, what is going on? Like, and I felt so dumb. Like I didn't want to like tell my midwife to come over and then it like be a false alarm.
- [130:51]
B
Yeah.
- [130:51]
A
Which she would not have cared. It's literally their job. But you just feel like dumb. I don't know. And so after like Paul had to start helping me though, I was like, I have to call my midwife. And so I called her and she instantly picked up and she was like, hey, I'll head over. And it took her about 20 minutes to get to me. I think she lives 10 to 15 minutes away from me. So she really got her stuff, hopped in and came over and she knew that I had had fast births in the past, so she was trying to like, like plan that. And I know she was like on edge because she knew that it was coming close.
- [131:26]
B
Yeah.
- [131:26]
A
And so she was like just waiting and anticipating it. And I invited my best friend again that had delivered my baby, but I had to call her. And so like I didn't want to call her. And it stopped too, because it's in the Middle of the night, and she has a baby herself. So I was like, I don't want to be, like, interrupting her if it's not real. And then all of a sudden, I started getting super emotional, and I was like, I need Addie. I need my best friend. So I ended up calling her. She answered, I'm crying. I'm like, I think I'm in labor. They're a few minutes apart. And she's like, okay, I'll head over. And I did, like, all my laboring in my living room, which I didn't expect.
- [132:06]
B
Yeah.
- [132:06]
A
But we were trying to blow up. Forgot to say I was trying to labor in a birthing pool because I love the tub. Right. I was trying to labor in a birthing pool. So Paul and I were trying to set it up, and he had to keep helping me every few minutes through each contraction. So it was taking us longer to set it up than we thought. And we were just gonna set it up in the living room and then bring it into my room. But I was just leaning on the couch the whole time, and I liked that. So it was fine because I was just. I would, like, get up. Comfortable here for a second. It was just me and him. So I would, like, get up and help him. Yeah. And then I was start having a contraction, and then I would have to, like, lean back on the couch, breathe through it. He's pushing on my back. And they were so incredibly strong. I can't even tell you. Like, so much stronger than my other contractions were, and they were so much longer, but just more spread out.
- [132:56]
B
Yeah.
- [132:57]
A
And I was like, holy, this is insane. I started feeling like, I don't know if I can do this. And I realized anytime that I would feel that way, like, I don't know if I can do this, I would start getting emotional. It was because I was in transition, and transition is like, when you're going to be pushing your baby out soon. Okay. And so at any time that I start feeling like that, that's because I'll be pushing my baby out soon. But I'm not thinking that when it's going on. I'm just like, oh, my gosh, what am I doing? I don't know if I can do this. And then all of a sudden, my midwife, like, had come, and she had helped me through a contraction, too, and she was just like. Like, spreading these positive affirmations over me, and she's like, you're doing a good job. Good job, Ashley. And that, like, took the pain away. It was so weird. I have never had somebody just like, she has like the most calming, soothing voice and she's just saying all these affirmations. And it was so soothing. It took the pain away from my whole contraction. I was like, this is crazy. And then she was like. I was like, oh, I like that. After the contraction was done, I'm like leaning on the couch doing that. I look up to her, I'm like, like, oh, I like that. And she was like, okay, I'll keep doing that. But she didn't get to keep doing that because my next contraction she kept going in and out because she was setting stuff up on my dresser in my room of like all the stuff she would need. And all of a sudden she hear heard me doing like pushing sounds. So she comes out and she's like, are you feeling pushy? That sounded like a little more pushing sounds. And I was like, I don't know, I don't know.
- [134:26]
B
I don't know what I'm doing.
- [134:27]
A
And then I was like, paul, we gotta feel up that pool. And she was like, there is no time. There is no time for that pool. And I'm like looking at her like, there's no way I'm going to be pushing this baby out already. There's no way. And so we then she was like, do you want to give birth here or are you wanting to go somewhere else? And I'm just in the living room. And at that point Paul had called my mother in law and to come get our kids. And so she was heading over and I just remember thinking in my head like, she's gonna be walking in. As I'm pushing out a baby in the living room. My kids started kind of waking up because they could tell something was going on even though it was the middle of the night. And so I was like, I want to go in my room.
- [135:06]
B
Yeah.
- [135:07]
A
And I'm so glad we did that because I had set up a tripod because with my other babies I didn't have like a video of me giving birth. And I was like, I want a video so bad of me giving birth. And so I remember seeing the tripod and was like, I said something like, oh, my tripod. And Paul knew how important it was for me. So he like set up my phone and hit record. And two, two, three minutes after he hit record, baby's out, baby's out. And so my friend didn't even end up making it. And my mother in law ended up walking in and my kids are up at this point, she's Hanging out with them in the living room as I'm giving birth to my baby. And this whole time I forgot to say I didn't find out the gender till birth.
- [135:51]
B
Okay.
- [135:52]
A
So Paul and I always said, like, if we had a boy and a girl, that we wouldn't find out the gender until birth. And so the whole pregnancy I thought I was having a girl.
- [136:01]
B
Yeah. I feel like that's how it is.
- [136:03]
A
Like, you know, you think so True. And I feel like I'm a very intuitive person, but not when it comes to what the baby is inside my body. So when I pushed him out, I was like, standing. I would literally push him out, standing on the edge of my bed. And he came out. And my midwife, like, he had a really short cord, but she's like, dad, what is it? You know? And then Paul was like, it's a boy. And I was like, it's a boy. And I'm like, like, hands over my mouth. I was like, shocked. It was like the coolest moment ever. Like, finding out his gender, waiting the whole pregnancy until finding out his gender was so cool and so rewarding. And I think that was like, during my labor, I was like, I want to know what this baby is. It like, kept me going. But yeah, my labor ended up being like three hours, so it was so quick. And about two minutes after I pushed him out, though, my bestie walked in and she's like, Ashley, oh my gosh, you're amazing. And I was like, it's a boy. And it's so cool because you can, like see all that in the video. And my mother in law and my daughter heard me scream out, it's a boy. And my daughter wanted a sister so bad, so. But she, she adjusted in two seconds. She's like, that's the cutest baby ever. And she's the cutest big sister.
- [137:21]
B
But you have to show me.
- [137:23]
A
I was worried because she wanted a sister so bad.
- [137:26]
B
Yeah.
- [137:26]
A
And it all worked out.
- [137:28]
B
She adapted.
- [137:30]
A
Yeah.
- [137:30]
B
Do you want any more kids? Are you done?
- [137:32]
A
I don't know.
- [137:33]
B
Okay.
- [137:33]
A
I could be done.
- [137:34]
B
But you're not. You're open to it.
- [137:36]
A
I feel that. Done feeling. But I don't know if I ever will.
- [137:38]
B
Okay.
- [137:39]
A
And like, grew up with such big families.
- [137:41]
B
Yeah.
- [137:42]
A
That it's like how, like, it's like weird for me to think of my sister or my daughter not having a sister. Like my son get a brother now. But, like, she doesn't get a sister. But, like, I can't determine the gender. And I also will not have more than four kids, I think that's, like, where I'll draw the line because I also know what it's like to have too many kids and then, like, they're neglected because you can't, like. Like, give them all your love and attention. And I never want that to be the case with my kids because I.
- [138:12]
B
You know what?
- [138:12]
A
It feels like I've just broken so many cycles with my kids, and I'm just gonna continue to do that. And you took the words out of.
- [138:20]
B
My mouth because that was breaking so many cycles.
- [138:23]
A
Yeah.
- [138:23]
B
And that's, I think, too, like, sometimes it's okay. Like, I think it's amazing what you said of, like, you still have so much compassion for your mom.
- [138:31]
A
Yeah.
- [138:31]
B
But at the same time, it's okay to reflect and realize. Like. Like, okay, but at the same time, I'm doing things differently.
- [138:37]
A
Yeah.
- [138:38]
B
You know, and that's a good thing.
- [138:40]
A
I can say, like, oh, things shouldn't have happened the way that they should have. And all I got all this trauma. Like, seriously, like, I could talk to you for hours. Like, we haven't even scratched the surface. Like, there's so many things that I've gone through, and it's like, I could hold resentment towards her, but I don't because. And sometimes I feel like that resentment can creep in because I'm like, as a mother, I'm like, how gives you a different perspective being a mother and loving my kids so much. And I'm like, she's still not, like, close to me and she's not active in my life, and my kids don't know her at all. They, like, they know her, but they don't. Like, they. I see my mom, like, once or twice a year.
- [139:22]
B
Okay.
- [139:22]
A
And now I'm like, it's kind of both. Like, if I have to be putting in the effort, and if I don't, there's nothing. And I think I finally got to the point where I was like, I'm not going to be the one only putting in effort. So I stopped. And then there was, like, nothing. There was like, crickets. So what about your dad? My dad? I. I feel like I was really close to him when I was younger, but, like, even then, like, I haven't talked to him in a long time. Like, we just don't have a close relationship. And it's just, like, so crazy because when I became a mother, I think it surfaced a lot of trauma that I went through. Like, whoa, this wasn't okay. Whoa, this wasn't okay. Once I felt that love for my child, I was like, these things are not okay. And so then that was like healing and things that I had to work through. And yeah, I eventually did end up going to therapy. It took a long time in my life, but I went to therapy for a while and I feel like it helped. But at the same time I feel like I have like, just done. I don't know, some people need like someone to talk to and like, whatever, validate or give like healthy coping mechanisms. And I feel like I had so many years where I just like, I'm gonna figure this out myself. What are healthy coping mechanisms? How can I make it through this? And like, I. And that's probably why I'm an oversharer. Like, I'll tell people anything and like, that's like on my tick tock. Like, I'll do story times and like, I'll do Get Ready With Me stories, story times. And I feel like it's almost like a diary for me or like, I don't know, it's like healing for me to just like talk about my stories and do stuff like that. And so, like, I just feel like there's things like honoring my brother and doing acts of kindness and I, like, eat healthy and I work out and I like, mostly work out for my mental health. And it's like I do these things not just for myself now, but for my kids because they deserve a mentally and emotionally available mother and they deserve the best version of me. And it takes a lot of healing and cycles that I go, okay, I'm not going to carry these cycles with me and I'm going to change this and I'm going to change that and I don't think this is okay or that's okay. And I just already love the relationship that I have with my kids. And I just pray that it continues to be so amazing because even my daughter, like, like she just talks to me about everything. And I just, I feel like it's been so healing for me to have kids and even to have my daughter. And like, being the mother that I never had basically is kind of like, I hate saying that because I don't want to come across like, rude. And like, you know, my mom might listen to this podcast, you know, and like, maybe it would be good for her. And like, my mom has been going to therapy herself and she's been realizing like, like things that she went through that wasn't okay. And like, she's kind of on a journey now where I feel like if she continued to go to therapy, like, maybe we could have a closer relationship. And like, I. I think that maybe eventually we could. And, like, maybe her and I would have to go to therapy together, too.
- [142:27]
B
To kind of sort through.
- [142:28]
A
To kind of sort through it. But, like.
- [142:30]
B
And the thing is, too, I don't.
- [142:31]
A
Know, it would take a lot of therapy. Your.
- [142:34]
B
Your experience versus your mom's experience is so different also, you know, like, even with her being with your dad and you being with your husband, and, you know, they were probably. They too, were closer to the times when things were different, you know, Whereas, like, now with social media and, you know, so much more, and, you know, there's so much more, I think, openness and knowledge around so many different things. Yeah. So it's, like, such a different experience that you guys had. So I feel like, too, it's. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, like, giving your children the mother you didn't have. And it's not a mean comment. It's just different, you know, and it's something where, you know, you learn these things and you learn.
- [143:17]
A
You.
- [143:17]
B
You take good and you take bad, and you. You kind of realize, all right, I'm going to use this. I'm gonna not use this, you know, and things like that. But I think that it's amazing, though, that your mom is now on her own journey.
- [143:30]
A
Yeah, I think it is. When I. I feel like if she continues to do this, like, she could really, like, grow and change. And I think she's still just so unaware of so much stuff, and, like, that's okay. Maybe eventually she'll get there. But it's, like, painful to, like, become aware of things, you know, and that's, like, stuff that she'll have to work through.
- [143:49]
B
And it's years, I feel like, of unraveling what, you know, so be years.
- [143:53]
A
Because, like, even for me and my husband, like, leaving the polygamous religion cult that we grew up in, that was so hard for us, and we never even went through their temple and, like, got sealed. Because people that go through their temple and get sealed, that's a whole other process of leaving that is so much harder to leave when you go through that process. Because, like, you're like, if you. They believe that if you leave after that point, like, you're damned, like, you are going to hell. And it's like, even with my husband and I, it was like. Like for the longest time, I think people kept holding on to hope because we hadn't gone through their temple yet. Like, oh, maybe eventually they will come back. And I think when I got my first tattoo, that kind of sealed the deal of losing hope.
- [144:38]
B
Yes.
- [144:39]
A
Being in there, because you cannot have tattoos and go through their temple. So.
- [144:42]
B
So are both of your families still in the religion?
- [144:47]
A
Yeah, both of our families are, somewhat. But, like, even, like, your parents are kind of of like. I don't want to speak for them, but, like, they're a lot older now, but they're kind of like, not what.
- [144:57]
B
They were with it.
- [144:57]
A
Not what they were with it.
- [144:59]
B
Okay.
- [144:59]
A
Kind of looks like they might be leaving.
- [145:02]
B
Well, especially, too, with your mom going to therapy, because that's.
- [145:04]
A
That's exactly what happened. She went to therapy and help open her eyes to a lot of things and a lot of things that weren't okay. And so she's working through that, you know, and I commend her on that for finally going to the. To. To therapy, because not only is therapy I feel like a taboo topic in general, but growing up in polygamy like that, like, you don't struggle with your mental health. It gets brushed under the rug. You don't go to therapy. If you go to therapy, you're crazy.
- [145:32]
B
Right.
- [145:33]
A
And so it's like, the fact that she's even putting in that effort, she's.
- [145:36]
B
Choosing her mental health. Yeah.
- [145:38]
A
Because, you know, I've struggled, and I've definitely had my resentment, but I can get down with anybody that's trying and trying to get better, and I think that's what she's doing, doing. So I commend her for that, truly.
- [145:49]
B
And then how did your boyfriend's family react when you guys left the religion?
- [145:54]
A
I think it was just such a slow process. It wasn't like, we're leaving, and it was like, they're still actively in our lives. And also, I feel like I never got to the point I kind of was saying, like, how his family was like, we won't let you be with her. And, like, they did not want me to be a part of the family. Not everybody, but some of them, like, some key people. I don't to want. Want to say names, but some key people were like, this is not happening. And they were not welcoming. It's completely switched now. And they're very welcoming and loving. And, like, I feel like people change and they grow and they evolve. And so I'm close with his family now, and I would say maybe even closer with his family than I am mine, because I see them way more than I see my family. So I'm very thankful for them. And that we have that close relationship. Because I never would have expected how, like, you know, I would never have expected to get close with them, just with everything.
- [146:48]
B
Yeah. And I was gonna say too, something that I believe is that, you know, no matter how you're raised or what you're raised into or what belief, I do think that people are born with whatever you want to call it, whether it's like your own energy or your own personality, where sometimes I think naturally you're just more aware, you're more open, and you're more called to break a cycle. Whereas sometimes, you know, maybe you're. And you know, the interesting thing is I feel like you could have easily gone that path. Like how you were saying, like, if you would have ended up with maybe somebody that wasn't as good as your husband, like, there could have been a chance where you just like, especially if.
- [147:30]
A
They were, like, it would have been a polygamous. Yeah.
- [147:32]
B
Like, if they were suit and too, like, I think if they were super, like, demanding or set in their ways, you might have. Especially since I would have just gone along.
- [147:40]
A
Even though I feel like that's not necessarily my personality. Like, I feel like I.
- [147:44]
B
But you were in a very, like, low place that I feel like, like you said, if you did. I just wanted.
- [147:50]
A
I wanted somebody to love me. I didn't care who it was. It could have been a man with multiple wives. I literally didn't care. I just wanted somebody to love me and I had no self worth. It makes me so sad because having a daughter and having sons, I never want them to feel that way. So I'm literally doing, like, everything I can to, like, help them just have, like, self worth and confidence because I think that's so important. And.
- [148:14]
B
But you get it though, because you've had felt.
- [148:16]
A
I get it. And like, that's like, I feel like I could say, like, how could I go through all these things and like, I've gone through so much of my life, but I just take it as I have learned so much in my life has made me a better person, a more compassionate person, and I get to like, bring that to my children and hopefully help them be better, more compassionate people and be in tune with their mental well being and be confident and be loving, caring people. And like, even my daughter the other day, like, she's already dealing with, like, sometimes kids will say mean things to her and she's in her gymnastics and class and like, a girl hates her and is telling all the girls, I hate her, I hate Brookie, and she was sad about it and I was like, rookie, do you want to know why she hates you? And she's like, because she's jealous. And I was like, yeah, she probably is jealous or intimidated. And I was like, you know what you should do? Just keep being kind to her. Kill her with kindness. Keep being kind to her and keep being you. You know your words, you're amazing. You don't need somebody else to tell you if you're good enough or not, because you are good enough just as you are. And like, I've had so many conversations with her and I know I'll have them with my boys when they're older. And I just, it's so healing for me as a mother. It like heals my inner child being a mother because I am able to just like when I'm saying those things to her, it's almost as if I'm talking to myself and I'm like, I don't know. It's just so healing. It's so healing to be able to be that mother for her and do the things I don't know. I never realized how healing being a mother would be and how it would just feel like my whole purpose in this world, you know, Because I was kind of taught that way. Like I didn't even plan to go to college or anything. Right, because you're taught like you're gonna just like have all these kids and you'll be a stay at home mom. And I actually just kind of want to be that anyways. I've realized, like, it's not just because I grew up that way. Like, like I don't want to go work. I want to be home with my babies and I want to be there raising them. And if you want to be a working mom, that's awesome. And like, I just, that's just what I want. Yeah, it's just what I love. I just love being home with my kids.
- [150:32]
B
Yeah, I love that. And I think too, it, it goes to show your whole story. It's like, yeah, of course. Hearing everything, it's like you're, it's jaw dropping. You're like, that's crazy. But at the same time, it does go to show that. And I feel like in general, all the stories that I hear, it, it shows how different people can live and be raised, but you can still go through such similar experiences and traumas and loss. And I feel like the important, it shows the importance of like staying true to yourself. And like, I feel like too, just realizing your self worth and, and getting Yourself the help that you need, and saying that it's okay not to be okay.
- [151:14]
A
Yeah.
- [151:14]
B
You know, because.
- [151:15]
A
Not be okay.
- [151:16]
B
Yeah. I feel like so many people are ashamed of that or they feel like they're so stuck in it. And I think, like you said, too, when you're down there and you're low, like, you don't feel like anybody wants to listen or can help, you know.
- [151:28]
A
You just feel dumb. No matter if you have the best people in the world that you feel like you can go to, sometimes it's really hard when you're in that place, and sometimes you just need that reminder to, like, yeah. That it's okay. And, like, when I share my brother's story, like, I've shared it on social media before and it's gone viral multiple times. Multiple times. And, like, when I share, like, how he died in that story, like, there's so many people that have said, like, I'm saving this video for later for when I feel suicidal again or when I want to take my life. Because sometimes just knowing, like, there is somebody that cares, like, my brother took his life 10 years ago, and it still highly impacts my life to this day. I still cry because I miss him, and I do everything I can to feel close to him. And, like, that's why I, I do those random acts of kindness. And I, I, I try to inspire others to do the same, like, in sharing, like, the acts of blue. Like, I've had other people say, well, I want to do this for my brother that I lost or my mom or my dad that I lost. And I'm like, please do it, because it's so healing to do those acts of kindness for people. And it, I think it's so important to find healthy ways to grieve because there's all those stages of grief that you go through, like anger and blame and guilt and sadness, and then you start to, like, feel a little bit of weight lift off of you. But, like, I believe that grief is where love is, and you will always love and miss that person. And it's important to remember them and to not just push it off and to feel it. And to always know that, like, they'll, they'll always be on your mind and that's okay. And just do things that help you remember them and be a good person, honor them.
- [153:08]
B
Yeah. And I think, too, even you sharing the story about your brother could help parents, you know, like, just to have them be aware that, like, someone can be struggling and you might not see it.
- [153:20]
A
Yeah.
- [153:20]
B
Or just to check in and unfortunately, that doesn't always make a difference. But you don't know it could, you know, And I think it just brings a different awareness to it. And I think, you know, even though suicide unfortunately happens often and is common, I think that it's still a taboo subject. I think people are still uncomfortable to talk about it.
- [153:39]
A
Well, I think the leading cause to suicide is not talking about it. Because even just saying it out loud to somebody, if you are feeling suicidal can switch something in your brain and maybe telling somebody, they'll go, no, like, I, I, please don't do that. Like, I need you here, let me help you. Whatever the case may be, saying it out loud, you need to get that off your chest. You cannot hold that in. Those thoughts are so heavy. And I want to say, like, even though it's common to have those thoughts, it's not normal. And like, it's okay to get help when you have those thoughts. And it's, it's okay to tell somebody that you trust. If you don't trust anybody, there's the hotline, 988. Text them, call them, tell them that you're having these thoughts. Like, do not hold those thoughts in. Because I truly believe that that's the leading cause of suicide is not talking about it.
- [154:31]
B
And I think too, you know, you bringing up the point of being in a belief or religion that tells you that because your brother took his own life that he's going to hell.
- [154:40]
A
Yeah.
- [154:40]
B
Basically. I think that I can see for many people how that would keep you in a place of being stuck and not being able to move forward. And, you know, moving forward doesn't mean forgetting. It just means being able to go on with your life and find happiness. Yes.
- [154:57]
A
Yeah.
- [154:57]
B
And how unfair is it?
- [154:59]
A
How am I supposed to find happiness if my brother is in hell?
- [155:02]
B
Right?
- [155:03]
A
Like, and that's what I kept going through. Like, how am I supposed to find happiness if my brother is in hell, which I truly don't believe he is. So.
- [155:10]
B
No, I don't. I don't like that.
- [155:12]
A
I don't like it either.
- [155:14]
B
Yeah, I just, I don't. I never. That's something I, I don't understand.
- [155:18]
A
Yeah.
- [155:18]
B
Like, and the thing is, is like, if even in some up way, if that was true, why is it that, like, I just feel like we're so advanced now that it's like, why, why is it that people even want to think that way? It's such a negative thought.
- [155:34]
A
I know it's so negative, but it's like, I don't I hate it. There's just like those random things, obviously.
- [155:41]
B
Because I think that it was just.
- [155:42]
A
Like, oh, fear based. Or that that's so, like, negative. And it was like, it was all those things that we'd kind of be like, well, I don't agree with that. That's fear based.
- [155:51]
B
That's negative. And I think that unfortunately, religion, any religion, makes people feel safe in a way.
- [156:00]
A
I think it does create comfort.
- [156:02]
B
It creates comfort, but at the same time, you know, it's so proven and obvious that, you know, negativity, negative thoughts, negative, anything attracts negativity back to you. So in any way, why would I. In my mind, I just can't wrap my head around, like, completely removing beliefs and religion out of it. Like, why would you even want to live with those thoughts? Especially when it comes to someone you knew or loved?
- [156:32]
A
Thoughts are so heavy. And once you go through that, you're like, wait, is this really what I believe?
- [156:37]
B
Right.
- [156:37]
A
I've just been told this, but do I actually believe he's in hell?
- [156:40]
B
And how. It's just like, how could you move forward with that thought? Like, it's nearly impossible. It's like it's leaving yourself stuck in a place.
- [156:47]
A
I'm like, he's in hell and it's my fault. I deserve to go to hell too.
- [156:52]
B
Right. And also it's like, why would you want to go anywhere good if someone you loved is not there?
- [156:57]
A
That's exactly how it felt. Yep.
- [156:59]
B
And I think too, like, in general, I think people need to be more open to discussing things like that as well.
- [157:07]
A
Yeah.
- [157:07]
B
Because in my opinion, just because you were raised a certain way and taught something, that doesn't mean you have to follow through that way.
- [157:13]
A
Yeah.
- [157:13]
B
You're able to. We are all individual.
- [157:16]
A
Whatever the crap you want.
- [157:17]
B
Yes. And I think that the more people that are open and just kind, the better the world would be. And the answer isn't always religion.
- [157:26]
A
Yeah.
- [157:26]
B
I think the answer is just being a good person and being the best version of yourself that you can be and getting yourself the mental help and talking and being open and honest. And, you know, obviously your story has so many different aspects to it.
- [157:41]
A
Yeah.
- [157:41]
B
You know, and I think that so many people can find help and relate to it in so many different ways. And like you said, like, I'm sure there's so many parts that. Yeah. And you don't even.
- [157:52]
A
I mean, that's why I like to share my life online, because I'm like, there's so many, like, stories and aspects of my Life that I feel like. Like could help somebody. And after losing my brother, like, that's a way of honoring him, too, is, like, helping people. And I truly believe that that's my purpose on this earth, is to help people and to help my kids be good humans. And. I don't know. I just love it. It gives me a purpose in life. And you can either let, like, the things that you go through make you or break you, and you can grow from them. And it might be years of a process.
- [158:25]
B
Yeah.
- [158:25]
A
And it might be so incredibly painful. But, like, you deserve to heal. If you have kids, your kids deserve to heal. They deserve the best version of you. So put in the work and be the best version that you can be. Don't guilt yourself. Don't feel bad if you're not being the best version of yourself, because you can always. It is never too late. You can always be better, and you can always work on yourself. And I'm not perfect. I'm still not a perfect mom, and I'm always working on myself. But you're.
- [158:53]
B
I think awareness is. Is key.
- [158:55]
A
Yeah. And I'm always apologizing to my kids, and I think that's a huge thing. Like, I was never apologized to for things. And I'm always apologizing to my kids and letting them know if I yell at them.
- [159:05]
B
Right.
- [159:05]
A
I did this or that. Like, it is not your fault. That is mine. And it's just like your brother, what.
- [159:11]
B
Your brother used to do with you.
- [159:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I know.
- [159:15]
B
It's cute.
- [159:15]
A
That's cute. I like that.
- [159:16]
B
Yeah. But no, I. I think that that's so important. That that's really, really important. I don't think enough people are aware of that, that, you know, the best thing you can do for others is be the best version of yourself.
- [159:28]
A
Yeah.
- [159:28]
B
You know, I agree. So.
- [159:30]
A
And you will feel better if you get the help. Like, I know it's comfortable when you're in that dark place or you're struggling.
- [159:36]
B
Because you're used to it.
- [159:37]
A
Stay where you're at. When you come out of it, you're.
- [159:40]
B
Like, man, this is what I was missing out on.
- [159:42]
A
Whoa. I was missing out on this amazing life. And it's like, life will. Life is a roller coaster, and you'll have these hard things that you go through, but if you heal through the hard things you've already gone through, when you go through those hard things, you'll have healthy coping mechanisms, and you'll be able to handle them better, and it won't be so heavy. Like, Those other things were so. That's why it's just so important to just work through the. That you've been through. Truly.
- [160:06]
B
I agree. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about? Do you think you got it all? Not.
- [160:11]
A
Well, I know you didn't get it all. I didn't get it all because, you know.
- [160:14]
B
Was there anything else?
- [160:15]
A
I feel like I have talked too long. I'm sorry. Like.
- [160:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's been like two hours, 50 minutes.
- [160:21]
A
Oh, okay.
- [160:22]
B
It's not too bad.
- [160:23]
A
Too long. No, I think that's good.
- [160:25]
B
I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any other, like, stories or any things you wanted to add in.
- [160:29]
A
I don't think so. I think I really.
- [160:31]
B
And I feel like too, like, because you have like the tick tock and stuff, like, it's good because you have your other, like, stories that you can elaborate on. Yeah.
- [160:39]
A
Let the stories out.
- [160:40]
B
Because that's. I know, like, I forget who it was, but there was somebody else on recently that was saying, like, that's why they like TikTok, because they're able. It's like something like this. They can tell their story in long form as best as they can, but then if somebody has like a question, they can go into detail about like something that they said.
- [160:57]
A
And it's like, I want to thank you for giving me this platform though, to tell my story because this is obviously like, we've been talking for three hours.
- [161:04]
B
Yeah.
- [161:04]
A
And it's like I obviously can't do a three hour video on my TikTok. And like, you can't go into as much detail in those stories. Stories. So, like, I'll tell those stories, but I don't go as much into detail and much as much of like a backstory with.
- [161:18]
B
Yeah, so I know. And that's the fun part is like, I feel like you're able to go kind of in order in a way from like beginning to where you are now to kind of like. And it's. It's interesting to kind of reflect on those different, like, stages of your life and really see the different chapters and the different things. And your birth stories were so intriguing. Like, I love them. They were so interesting.
- [161:40]
A
Yeah. It's like, if you're ever nervous about birth, reach out to me because I'll bring positivity to you. Because I think birth in any way. C section, medicated, no matter what. I think birth is so beautiful.
- [161:52]
B
Yeah.
- [161:52]
A
So empowering and cool.
- [161:54]
B
So it can just be, I think in general. And I think too, even what you Mentioned with that is, like, you know, when you go through dark times, you. And then you have a kid, you probably think, like, oh, this is supposed to be a good time. So you might feel, like, guilty.
- [162:05]
A
Yeah.
- [162:06]
B
But, like, if not, you didn't really have self control. Like, you know, you're in such a fragile place. It's something.
- [162:12]
A
So postpartum is so fragile.
- [162:14]
B
Yeah.
- [162:15]
A
I have a special place for my postpartum mamas because. Yeah, you're just in such a fragile state, and I feel like you don't truly start to feel like yourself till a couple years after a kid. And then if you have them close together, like, I feel like all my kids were three years apart. I would finally feel like myself, like, fully myself. Like, even my baby's eight months now. And I feel really good. This is the best postpartum experience I've had. You're getting. You're getting used to it. Yes. I'm so thankful. And, like, I'm saying, I had a bad postpartum experience, so I changed a lot of things.
- [162:45]
B
Yeah.
- [162:46]
A
So that I could hopefully have a better one this time. And it worked.
- [162:48]
B
Yeah. You learned.
- [162:49]
A
But, like, it isn't until about two years where I'm like, man, I am, like, feeling hot again.
- [162:54]
B
Yeah.
- [162:55]
A
I'm like, who do I want to be? What do I want to do in life? I'm sure each time, too, Each kid is so different. Teaches you something new. New. You go through a whole different life with each kid. I feel like.
- [163:06]
B
So. I love it, though. It was so interesting. Well, thank you so much.
- [163:09]
A
Yeah.
- [163:10]
B
Seriously, I loved this. I loved your life story.
- [163:12]
A
Thank you.
- [163:13]
B
Now I feel like I need to go through your tick tocks and, like, hear more details of each.
- [163:17]
A
Yes.
- [163:17]
B
I know now that I've heard, like, the. The background of it, but. No, you did amazing. Seriously.
- [163:22]
A
Thank you so much.