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A
I'm very happy to be here. Sharing my story is very difficult. Not only obviously for me it's difficult at times, but for others it's obviously very difficult to hear my story because I'm not like A lot of your guests have been through horrific things. They've experienced horrific things done by others, whereas I've been the one who's who's done the horrific things. I've heard a lot of people and I spent nearly 17 years in prison. I came home in 2020 and was not sure how to expect people to respond to me. And eventually I had some local school resource officers who are police officers working in the school system. They reached out to me and wanted to talk to me about how can they help out kids who are going through dark, difficult times and how can they most importantly prevent them from doing something like what I did, bringing a gun into school. And so I started talking with them and opening up and and they were happy to hear my story as hard as it was. And next thing I know they invited me to speak at a conference. And then after that conference I literally had the FBI reach out to me and it just kind of went from there. So I do my best to open up and to answer questions because too many of these tragedies are happening. During my 17 years in prison, I saw things in America get worse, not better. You know, I would have hoped that we would have come together collectively and done more to help prevent these tragedies, but we haven't. And so I've been working the past few years however I can talking to people to kind of put those pieces of the puzzle together and how others can see red flags, how others can help individuals and to Better understand this.
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B
And I think the issue too is we hear about these tragic events happening or we see like a headline and then that's it. We don't get any information of the, or what was going on or the mental health aspect. And I think that that's why there's not really change, because it's kind of just like, oh, this happened again and then it's pushed on something else, you know.
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A
Yeah, there's also, there's a lot of times, you know, the, the gunman is dead or in prison for life and they're not speaking out. And so it is. I have this very dark, unique perspective that I wish I didn't have, but I do. So that's why I try to spread awareness. Spread awareness and however I can.
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B
Yes. And I feel like that's a way to take a dark time that you had and a dark time in general and use it in the benefit not only for yourself, but also for so many others and to spread that awareness. You know, I've said this before to another one of my guests that shares. They, they talk at schools as well. And I was saying I think it's so important to have speakers come in and speak firsthand about what's going on and prevention and things like that. Because I think a lot of times too, just thinking back when I was in high school, we would have these like assemblies and things where. But it was, it was kind of hard to connect to. I feel like kids don't want to listen at that age. It's kind of like we have to go or you're getting out of class. And I feel like stories like yours need to be heard and understood and they're important to share and I think they're very moving and it puts a lot into perspective and it's real, it happens. And unfortunately, I think we live in a world where people don't really fully grasp or understand and understandably so. But I think it's. The more we have knowledge about it, like you said, the more we can make a change.
- [04:35]
A
Yeah. And especially when you're, when you're talking with kids so many times, parents, teachers, law enforcement, when they reach out to me and they want to know how to like get a kid to open up, I tell them first you have to open up to them a little bit. You have to get them to be able to, you know, connect and respond to somebody. It's not a one way street, it is a two way street, you know, through opening, opening up, not only at conferences and on podcasts. But on social media, I've had millions of people hear my story. And, yeah, there's a lot of controversy with me opening up. And I completely understand that. I'm not looking for forgiveness. I'm not looking to be liked. None of that. I'm looking simply for, like you said, spreading awareness, but also through opening up. I've had so many people open up to me. A lot of kids, a lot of young adults who. Who are struggling, who were in that dark place that I was once in, have opened up to me. And they simply want somebody who they feel won't judge them, somebody who will listen to them, won't, you know, deliver any consequences, because that's a lot of times one of the biggest hurdles is somebody who's going through a tumultuous time in their life and they're thinking about maybe hurting themselves or others. They don't want to admit to it because they don't want the consequences that might follow up, Whether it's just institutionalization in a mental hospital or. Or even being locked up or even just the stigma of people looking at you differently. And I just kind of like, hey, people know my story. They feel more comfortable opening up to me sometimes, and I'm willing to be there to listen to them as well as, like I said, I don't want to just talk. I want to listen as well.
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B
Absolutely. And it's important. There's not enough people that just listen sometimes I think more people need that. So what age did this all begin for you, like this dark period?
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A
Yeah, so I usually go way back. People have a lot of questions about my childhood and everything. So the shooting that I committed took place at 16. Right. But if we want to go into the usual questions that I get is what kind of family did I have? What was growing up like, you know, my parents, they both had kids from previous marriages. I was the only kid they had. My dad left when I was 4 years old. And by the way, nothing I say about my childhood or my experiences excuses or justifies what I later did. I only share it to bring awareness and to bring those pieces of the puzzle together. My father left when I was four years old, and shortly after that, I was groomed and sexually abused about five, six years old. And I tell people about that because, like, the person who groomed me told me, this is what people in love do. I obviously had no idea what that meant or anything about it, but I even remember when it ended, I felt gross and disgusting, as in, I did something wrong when I was five Six, seven years old. And I would later, this would cause me to be less likely to open up about everything and anything because I felt like there was something inherently wrong with me. My father left, I blamed myself. Sexual abuse happened, I blamed myself. I felt like there was just something wrong with me and everybody else was living a better life. And you know, from the outside looking in, though, I mashed pretty well as a young kid where I played sports, I loved playing, playing, you know, baseball most of all. And my grades were decent, they were good. I had friends, I was social. And it wasn't until I was, you know, 13, 14 years old that I started to fall apart. And at this time I, I was still social, but I wasn't as open, I wasn't as talkative. I was there, but I wasn't, if you know what I mean. And the depression really started to kick in and I just could be in a room full of friends. I literally remember this one afternoon. I've got like eight or nine friends over at my house. I'm dating this girl, I'm 15 years old, right? And in my mind, like, this is every 15 year old kid's dream, right? Friends, girlfriend, everything's going good. And I felt completely alone in that room. Not because I didn't think that any of my friends, like, they didn't like me. No, I knew they did, but I just felt empty. I just felt like nothing. I felt numb all the time. And so about a year before the shooting, I opened up and I called my mom from school one day and I told her, I said, something's wrong with me, I don't feel right, I can't make it through the day. And she did what she could. She came, she picked me up from school, she made an appointment to see my doctor the next day. And we go to see my doctor and I open up to him and he's asked me, you know, some of the mental health questions about have I ever thought about hurting myself or killing myself? And I admitted, yeah. And so immediately they're like, okay, you know, set me up in therapy, he gives me a prescription for meds right away and, you know, my mental health journey begins. But it was, I went through that period as well. When I first started seeking help with my mental health and taking the medications, I thought things would improve within a few weeks or months. And simply that doesn't, that's not how it goes for most people. So I, within a couple of months, I tried to kill myself. And you know, I, I got drunk one night, I just Started drinking heavily, taking a bunch of pills. I didn't, you know, research how to kill myself. I just figured, like, mix alcohol with meds, that'll do the trick. And so, yeah, so I'm just taking handfuls of pills and sure enough, I wake up the next morning just violently ill. And my mom thought that I had the stomach flu or something like that. And so for days I'm just violently ill. But thankfully I start to recover. But at the same time, I was also self harming. I was cutting myself in this time period and I was hiding it, but you can only hide it for so long until people started to notice. And, and when I was pressed about that, that's when I opened up about trying to kill myself. And that's when my mom asked, like, if I'd be willing to go into a mental hospital to seek more intensive care. And I said, yeah, sure.
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So I have not been sleeping as well as I should be. And something that I've never considered or thought of is my air quality. And that maybe that's something that's disrupting my sleep at night. But common sense, when you think about how much time we're spending in our homes, especially me because I'm always here with my animals, we come to realize how important the quality of our air actually is and what we're breathing in can be doing to our bodies and affect things such as our sleep or energy levels and everything in between. That is why I started using Air doctor. I actually have one right behind my camera right now because my cats are always down here, same with my dog. And it is the only air purifier being used in this home. One of the first things I noticed is how much less dust is in the air. There are way fewer odors and overall the air is just fresher throughout the entire house. And it makes me feel better to know that not only am I breathing in fresher and cleaner air, but so are all nine of my animals. What sets Air Doctor apart and makes it different is its powerful three stage filtration system that actually captures particles that are 100 times smaller than what many ordinary air purifiers can remove. And it's capturing things that we definitely do not want to be breathing in, such as pet dander, VOCs, bacteria, viruses, mold, spores, smoke, dust and pollen. I am always keeping my purifier on the auto mode because it is whisper quiet, which I love. There's absolutely no guesswork when it comes to having to change your filter. And the auto mode just completely adjusts the air quality it does, does exactly what it needs to do and I do not have to worry about doing it myself, which is amazing. Like I said, there is no guesswork whatsoever. Your air is just clean, fresh and pure. Head to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code INSANE to get 250 off select Air Doctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000 and 5500 models. We're so confident you'll love Air Doctor that every purchase is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. This is an exclusive podcast only offer available now@AirDoctorPro.com that's a I R D O C T O r p r o.com using promo code I N S A N E.
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And this was a year before the shooting. But this is also kind of where my grievance towards the school started. Because while I'm at the mental Hospital, I'm 15 years old, I'm in a juvenile unit, there's a bunch of other kids from all over the area, but they're all going to different schools and we all have to like, maintain our schoolwork while we're there. But the staff comes to me and they're like, hey, your school's like not sending anything. And I'm like, okay. And they're like, you have to like show up to the school room here at the hospital, but we don't have anything for you to do. We're sorry. And like, all right, but this happens day after day after day and that's when I start to like, think I literally tried to fucking kill myself and my school won't do shit to help me out while I'm in a psychiatric unit. And yeah, I couldn't believe it.
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B
There was no support.
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A
There was no support from them. And when I returned to school, when I left the hospital, my mom had a meeting with them and we tried to get me an iep, right, an individual education program so that I could limit some classes and do things a little bit differently, right? And they denied me. Despite my psychiatrist, my psychologist, some of my teachers, everybody trying to support this happening, they say no. And so I just continue to try as normal. But I, I couldn't focus. I. I still was majorly depressed.
- [14:51]
B
Did you feel like the mental hospital stay helped at all?
- [14:54]
A
Not really, to be honest with you. Only because in the fact of, like, in the back of my mind, I felt kind of. I felt like I was deceived first a little bit. Honestly, like, I was told I would go into the hospital and that Because I was volunteering. I could leave at any point. And while I was in the hospital, I wanted to leave, you know, after a couple of days. And that's when they told me, oh, no, you're only 15. It's up your parents. And my mom basically told me she was going to leave it up to the doctors. You know, she. She was in over her head here. She wanted me to get the best help I needed, and so she wasn't going to, you know, just let me choose. When I left at 15 years old and I felt somewhat deceived, and then when the school wasn't supporting me while I was in the hospital, now I'm just feeling like nobody gives a fuck about me. Nobody's trying to actually help me. And yes, when I returned to school and then it felt like they weren't helping me, then I just continued to. I was skipping class. You know, I was never a kid in school that really got into trouble besides, like, skipping class. That was, you know, that was the biggest trouble I got into. Besides, I did get into, like, one fight because people ask about, like, violence or bullying or anything. I'm a bigger guy. I've always been a bigger kid. Growing up, never dealt with bullying, thankfully, but. And then, like, the one fight that I got into was with a guy that his girlfriend opened up to me and one of my friends that, you know, he had been beating her. And I'd shared a couple classes with her. I'd overheard some of the conversations she had with friends. I knew that something was wrong. And, yeah, I took it upon myself to, like, like, okay, you know, I'm a bigger guy. He's a bigger guy. I'm gonna go teach him a lesson. And that's also, I tell people that's when I started to feel, like, more justified using violence sometimes. And this is also in a time period where it's like, post 9 11, I'm kind of caught up in, like, I can't wait to join the military. You know, like, we need to go overseas and do what we have to do to teach people a lesson. And I tell people that this would later on, like, add to my warped sense of justification of violence, which, again, in my situation, there's none. But, yeah, so things at school just kind of, like, kept going downhill. And I was, you know, not putting myself out there with my friends. Like, I was isolating a little bit more and more. Like, I still had friends, I still had, you know, connections, but I wasn't really there even when I was physically there.
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B
Yeah, so even with your friends, you were kind of masking what you were feeling?
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A
Yeah, I. You know, some of my friends knew that I was in therapy and I was on meds, and. But this is also early 2000s. The. The mental health conversation wasn't as strong as it is today. And. And, you know, I later found out that one of my friends, their parents were like, kind of, oh, we don't want John around you. You know, not because they thought that I was dangerous, but because, like, they just didn't know how to handle the fact that I was suicidal. So, yeah, there was. Again, sometimes I just felt on my own, you know, even when I had my mom helping me out. And, you know, my brother and my sister were great, but. But I was always afraid to open up to them. I didn't want my struggle, my pain, my suffering to become theirs. And so I would try to mask around them and protect them in my mind because I just didn't want them to know just how severe everything was with me. Yeah, things would just continue to go downhill for a while, and eventually my mom, you know, would keep having meetings with the school, trying to improve things because I was failing all of my class just about. And she hired an attorney. And suddenly when the attorney shows up to one of these meetings and the attorney tells the school administration, we're going to sue you and you're going to lose a lot of money and you're going to get a lot of bad publicity. Now all of a sudden, they want to do everything they can to help me. Right. And this just kind of justifies in my mind that they don't give a fuck about me. They care about money and how they appear to the outside, how they appear to the public. That's all they care about. They don't actually care about me or anybody. EL. And that would just kind of, like, further infuriate me. And, yeah, you know, I got the IEP that I wanted, but it was the end of the school year. I pretty much failed everything, and I just felt miserable. I felt like I failed. I fucked up. But at the same time, I didn't want to take accountability as well because I could have done more. I wanted to blame them. I wanted to blame others.
- [19:42]
B
I think, too, you know, being that young and having, you know, struggling with your mental health, we're not equipped at that age to take responsibility yet. I don't think we really know how to.
- [19:53]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's. It's definitely a struggle for anybody of any age, but especially when you're Younger. And I think the lack of experience that you have in the world and the lack of understanding about the world.
- [20:03]
B
Support. There was no support.
- [20:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, like, I. I did have some familial support. Right. Some family support, but, like, none from the school.
- [20:12]
B
Right.
- [20:12]
A
I. I definitely felt like that was lacking and that really pissed me off. Yeah. But. So it was one of those things where, sure, they gave me the help, but only at the threat of a lawsuit and at the, you know, too little, too late, end of the school year. But I go into, like, summer vacation. I'm 15, soon to be turning 16. I'm just kind of like, screw it. Like, I refuse to even go to summer school. I was like, I'm just going to go have fun with my friends. Like, I'm going to try to do things better. I just live things up. And. Yeah, so, like, I, I had a good summer, you know, where I was just like, let me just focus on just having fun, you know? And yeah, I tried to do that and it worked for the most part. But I tell people I was also. I was throwing a rug over a hole in the floor. Even in therapy, I was dealing with all the superficial issues. I wasn't really dealing with, like, the deep down issues. In therapy. I never opened up about the sexual abuse. I was terrified of opening up that. And I tell people another issue about, like, that a lot of kids have and a lot of adults have in therapy is. Pretty quickly I started to, like, want the approval of my therapist. I didn't want my therapist to look at me weird. I didn't want my therapist to know this. Like, again, I blame myself for the abuse. I didn't want my therapist to think that I was disgusting or that something was wrong with me in that way. So I just continue to clam up about most things, everything.
- [21:44]
B
And did your mom know about the abuse?
- [21:46]
A
No.
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B
No. Okay.
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A
No. I would never open up about the abuse until I was in prison.
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B
Gotcha. I think that's heavy too. Just holding such a. A dark secret that also just makes you feel shame and embarrassment and it's, it's not something that, especially for a man, I don't think it's easy to talk about at all.
- [22:07]
A
Yeah. And that was honestly a big thing. Right. You know, I, I thought that the sexual abuse that I was the victim of as a small child, I thought that if I opened up about this as a teenager, that some people would look at me differently as a man. Right. That this would somehow lower my masculinity in people's. Eyes. And I was afraid of that.
- [22:32]
B
Yeah.
- [22:33]
A
You know, like, I was never trying to be like a. A macho man, but at the same time, I didn't want to be looked at as less than. And I thought that. That it would. In reality, it doesn't. And the more that I've opened up about the sexual abuse I've endured, the more that I've heard from so many men and boys about the abuse that they've gone through. And I think it's more important than ever for men and boys to open up about it, because that is, like you said something that if you hold onto it, it. It's like a cancer. It's going to slowly eat away at you, and you have to cut it out. And the only way to cut it out is by opening up and talking about it. Because when I. Honestly, when I first opened up and talked about it, it was in prison because I saw another man opening up and talking about it. And this was a guy in prison who was kind of like, you know, older guy, kind of like stereotypical, like, you know, big dude. And you wouldn't expect it, you know. Yeah, exactly right. In your mind, you don. Expect somebody, especially a big guy in prison who a lot of people looked up to, to open up about something like that. And. But, you know, he was open about the fact that, yeah, he was a small kid and this happened to him. And, you know.
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B
But I think, once again, unfortunately, it takes us, like, growing up and becoming an adult to realize it's. It's safe to share. And that by people sharing and having that like, like openness, that it makes you feel more safe and connected. But, like, when you're a kid, it does not feel that way because we're. We're not. It's almost like all taboo. No one talks about it.
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A
Well, I think, too, a lot of parents and adults, they want to protect kids from adult situations, not realizing how many kids are going through adult situations, you know, how many kids have had adult situations forced upon them. And that's why I tell people, like, we need to open up more, you know, age appropriately to a certain extent, but to realize that there's a lot of very, very young kids who have no idea about sex or anything to do with that. And I don't know, like, we. We have to kind of find where's the balance, when's the right time and the right way to explain, because we want kids to feel like it's okay if something's happened to you or anything. You can open up to adults about it. And again, sometimes adults need to open up to kids a little bit more.
- [25:06]
B
Okay, so you know how there's just those certain things that maybe you go to a friend's house and you're like, I love that. I need it in my house. Well, let me just tell you, that is what Cozy Earth has become in this household right here. Their bamboo sheet set has completely spoiled us because once you sleep on it, you will never want to sleep on something else. Take my word for it. It is crisp, it's cool, it's soft. It also just looks so luxurious, serious. In my opinion. It's not one of those sheets that you wash at one time and then you're like, ugh, it just doesn't look the same. The quality went down. No, the quality remains with every single wash and the sleep, the comfort, 10 out of 10. And then for the guys in our lives, we had the Everyday polo, the Everyday Pan, which is literally the definition of just showing up this summer with effortless and chic style. These are the kind of pieces that somehow look nice enough to wear out, but are comfortable enough that you end up with wanting to wear them all of the time. One of my favorite reviews that I actually read was that somebody bought the Everyday pant and they wore them once and they loved them so much that they had to go back and buy three more pairs, which I totally get because they are wrinkle free, they're breathable, they're comfortable, and like I mentioned before, they're just this pant that you can really have the comfort in, but you can also dress it up, dress it down with some sneakers, run errands, go out for dinner in them. It is like the one pant that you can do everything in and you're comfortable the whole time. So what more could your guy ask for? What I really appreciate about Cozy Earth is that they completely stand behind their products. So they offer a 100 at night sleep trial with all of their sheets, lifetime warranty on all of their clothing, and hassle free returns for something just doesn't work out right for you or you want to try something else. Whatever it might be. Returns are made super easy, which is always very important and key to me. This summer should be made easy for everybody body. So whether you are getting Cozy Earth to sleep in or to wear, you will be comfortable, you will feel like you can breathe, you will feel cozy, you will feel chic and luxury and everything in between. So head to cozyearth.com and use my code INSANE for an exclusive 20 off. That's code INSANE for an exclusive 20 OFF. And if you see a post purchase survey, mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. And I think too, thankfully with social media, I think I always say social media has pros and cons. But a pro with you sharing your story is that if there are young teens that have gone through this and are feeling this way and they find your story, that kind of cuts the whole. That gap between being, you know, 15 and whatever it might be, 25, 35. When they do have the courage to share, I think it, like, you, by sharing your story gives them that. That courage. It like, cuts off so much that
- [27:43]
A
that whole gap definitely. Like. Like, I try to open up about a lot of the things that I experienced and a lot of the thoughts and insecurities and emotions that I was going through, because there are a lot of kids who are nowhere near, like, going down a dark pathway like I was, but they've still experienced some things and they're still going through some, you know, confused or dark times. And for anybody to open up to them, you know, I've had a lot of kids open up to me and reach out to me and share exactly that, that they've seen me on TikTok or Instagram and that, you know, they were able to see somebody who was going some. Through some things like they have. And I turned my life around and I'm doing great today. Despite the horrific things that have happened to me, and despite the horrific things that I've done, I'm still able to have turned my life around. And for a lot of kids, that's inspiring as well, too. For a lot of adults as well, too, because we don't hear as many success stories as we hear about the stories of people who just don't get things back on track.
- [28:47]
B
And then. So what happened after summer? You had a decent summer?
- [28:51]
A
Yeah.
- [28:51]
B
So were those thoughts kind of like, simmering down?
- [28:55]
A
Yeah. So, like, summertime I'm able to distract myself a little bit better. Like we're trying out different meds and everything and. Because that's the other thing too is like, medication definitely helps out, but when it's mismanaged. And for a while my meds were being mismanaged where, you know, you have a side effect from antidepressants. So they gave me, you know, Xanax for anxiety. Oh, well, now you can't sleep. Here's some. Here's something for that. And I just end up on a whole bunch of different medications. But, you know, you found a right balance for a little while and go back to school in September. And pretty quickly I realized, like, I'm just not doing well in this environment. Like, I can't handle everything going on. I can't handle my schoolwork. I just can't handle, you know, I can't focus. I can't concentrate. I can't even. Just being in large crowds that sometimes would, you know, set off panic attacks. So, yeah, I realized this is not working out. But my therapist, he tells me, oh, well, when you're 16, you can drop out and find other ways of getting an education. And so we looked into that, because I was turning 16 in October, and we found out that I could actually enroll in a local community college, start taking classes there that are college classes, and I'd be getting my credits towards an associate's degree. And once I got so many credits, they would also give me my ged. So I was like, oh, shit, I'll actually be like, in front of my classmates. I'll be doing better than. And so we kind of set that in motion. And so I turned 16 at the end of October and was like, all right. You know, I basically stopped going. The school reached out to my family, and they're like, oh, technically, he has to turn 16 before the school year starts to legally drop out. But my mom was like, listen, he's going to continue his education elsewhere.
- [30:56]
B
Right?
- [30:57]
A
Don't worry about it. You know? And so I start to, like, think, okay, I'm. I'm doing good. I have plans for the future. I'm starting to have a brighter, you know, outlook on life. And, yeah, I'm feeling a bit better. I'm feeling like, okay, things are finally going my way. And we start to take me off meds, right? Which then. And it's kind of that, like, you know, that catch 22 of. Sometimes when you're on different medications, you feel like, okay, like, I'm feeling good. Maybe I don't need the medication anymore. And we start to take me off the meds, and, you know, I'm left with basically, like, taking Xanax as needed if I'm feeling anxious or a panic attack coming on. But, yeah, I started up at the community college in January, a month before the shooting. But I also show up there, and although the classwork seems okay, I'm just not feeling right. I'm just feeling out of place now. I'm suddenly, like, I am socially isolated, more so than ever before, because I feel like I'm 16. And there's this huge gap between 16 and the 18, 19 and older students who are there. And I, I just feel like, okay, like all my friends in high school, like, I'm away from them. I'm not really connecting with them anymore because I'm busy with college courses. And I just feel like now I'm overwhelmed and the little bit of support that I have from like my social circle was, was gone. And. But I was like, I can power through this. I'll be okay. And I start to have like the sleepless nights and I tell people, like, the most dangerous time is 2am when you can't sleep right night. And more and more of these nights are happening, but people are also like congratulating me on what seems like getting my life together. And I don't want to admit that I'm backsliding, that I'm not doing as good as I appear to be. I don't even want to tell my therapist. I tell people I would go to therapy once a week. You know, I might have a therapy session on Thursday, but if I have a horrible day on Monday or Tuesday, it's. I'm even suicidal on Monday, but I'm feeling better by Thursday. I don't want to admit to anything on Thursday. I want to just power through this and just. I don't want to admit to anything. You know, that was just a, a one day slump. I'm fine, I'm okay. But in reality, like, I was, you know, I was spiraling underneath the surface and I was afraid to admit it. And yeah, it all comes to a point when one of my brothers, you know, he had been in the military for a few years and he was getting out. He had done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. And you know, he was saying he wanted to go hunting with me. And you know, I'd been around guns a bit, but it'd been, you know, a year or two since I opened up about my depression. My mom was like, hell no, you're not going to the shooting ranges anymore with your brothers. But. And my mom was still kind of like, when I mentioned it to her, she was like, no, that's not happening. So what do I do? Like, I go to my therapist and I'm like, come on, I'm doing better. Like, I'm okay, you know, and to the best of his knowledge, yeah, I'm not opening up to him about how, you know, things are downward spiraling at times. So he brings my mom into, to the end of the therapy session. I'm 16 years old, so, you know, we'd have, like the last, like five minutes. She could come in and maybe say something to me or say something. I could say something to her with my therapist there to mediate. But. But my therapist says the words that we'll never forget. He says, you have your son back. And. I didn't know just how worried my mom was about me. You know, as a kid, you don't understand just how much your parents are. Are, you know, anxious and worried about you. Especially as my mom had heard a. That I was suicidal. I didn't realize just how afraid she was to come home and find me dead. But when my therapist said, you have your son back now, she's like, I don't have to worry about that anymore, you know, and she just thinks I can treat him like I treated him before. And, yeah, she goes and starts talking with, you know, some of her co workers who are hunters. And, you know, it's upstate New York, right? It's hunting's pretty big.
- [35:33]
B
Big.
- [35:34]
A
And she comes to me one day and she says, hey, the. The local gun store is going out of business. They got that going out of business sale. Let's go check it out. And we do. And my mom says she wants to get a shotgun. She's like, hey, she wants to use it for skeet shooting and home defense. And, you know, I can borrow it when I go out with my brother and do some hunting. And I'm like, yeah, sure. And, yeah, so she buys a shotgun and, you know, she. She got a trigger lock for it, you know, and she was not only heard from my therapist, my psychiatrist, she even went and spoke with the local police department, you know, about, like, hey, what should I know? And, yeah, they just said, you know, keep it locked, keep it safe. And she did. But one of the problems is a lot of kids will do their best to find where that key for that. That safe or that lock or where the combination is written down sometimes. And I found. I found where my mom kept the key, you know, and there was nothing like, you know, ominous in my mind. I wasn't thinking anything horrible. It was just kind of like, curiosity, you know, I want to know where it is so I can. Because immediately, like, I'm 16, I think I'm a badass now, right? I go and, you know, I. I take a picture of myself with the shotgun and I send it off. I send the picture off to a couple friends and family. And, you know, my friends and family, they are. They're worried about me still, right? Everybody's still worried about Me. But in my mind, I guess I had actually seen this as like a symbol of trust that my therapists and my mom and others saw in me, that they trusted me with this. And then when some of my. My other family, some of my friends, you know, when they were worried, instead of seeing it as worry and concern and love that they had for me in my mind, I just start to, like, freak out. Like, you don't believe in me. You don't trust me. Like, nobody's ever going to believe in me again. Nobody's ever going to trust me again. You know, all those, like, I'm not thinking in, you know, in the middle ground. I'm not realizing things. I'm just in the ultimatum of, like, it. You're either 100% with me or 100% against me. And I just started to fall apart. And now I'm like, it. You know, I. I'm tired of this. I'm tired of people not believing in me. I don't want to be labeled this way for the rest of my life. And I was just like, I. I want to die. And now there's no taking pills and waking up the next morning. Now I have a shotgun and I have the key. I can get to it and I can die anytime I want. And. But then my. My mind starts going into, like, I don't want to, like, sit here in my bedroom as I was close to doing and just shooting myself. I don't want my mom to find my body. I don't want my mom to associate her home with my death. And again, I just go right back to blaming everything that happened at that school and thinking, you know, what if a year ago I was trying to kill myself? Then if I'd gotten more help, if I had gotten more support, if they had gotten me into, you know, the IEP programming, if they had helped me out while I was in that school, I could have gotten my shit together then I could have, you know, continued on in high school, been with all my friends, like normal. I could have been a normal kid. And that's all I kept thinking was like, I just want to be normal. I'm not. In my mind, I've always thought, there's something wrong with me, me. And now I'm just blaming everybody else. And now I'm just angry and furious. And now I'm just thinking, you know, what? If I'm up, I'm going to make sure they're up, too. You know, I'm just thinking, I want to die. I don't Want to die at home. So I'm going to go to school and I'm going to fucking die in front of everybody. I'm going to fuck them up, too, you know, I'm going to make sure that they never forget me. I'm going to make sure that they have the sleepless nights, too. I'm going to make sure. Take your time, you know, And I hate myself for it because that's exactly what I did. I know now, over 20 years later, there's still a lot of people who suffer to this day because of me. And that's what I wanted. So, yeah, that's what I set out to do. You know, my mom literally bought the gun on Saturday. Sunday, like, Saturday night, I'm out with friends, right? I'm out with friends. We're having a good time, you know, because I still manage to go out every once in a while with people. And Sunday, I still remember, I just wake up and it's February. It's, you know, it's upstate New York. It's fucking dark gray. And just, just, you know, we had like an ice storm. And it was like, I just felt miserable and everything just went downhill very quickly. And so literally go from Saturday, things seem fine to Sunday. I tell people all the superficial work I did. That rug that I threw over a hole in the floor, I stepped on it and I fell through, and I went to a very dark place very quickly. And Sunday night, I'm running, I'm writing out a suicide note, and Monday morning, I'm heading to my school with a gun. Bonjour, compadre. It's the Priceline negotiator. How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget, the Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle deals, game day deals, concert trip deal deals. No one deals more deals than Priceline. Hold your horses, there's more. The app lets you filter hotels by neighborhood vibe, star level, and amenities like pools and spas and beach fronts and. Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me up.
- [42:05]
B
Ever feel like healthy eating is harder than it should be? I get it. Nutrition can feel complicated, but it doesn't have to be. On Be well by Kelly. I simplify the science of nutrition so you can feel better, balance your blood sugar, and build healthy habits that actually last. Each week, I talk to leading experts, doctors, and researchers about practical ways to nourish your body and make wellness accessible in real life. Listen to Be well by Kelly. Wherever you get Your podcasts, new episodes every Wednesday.
- [42:38]
A
And I'll never forgive myself.
- [42:43]
B
The note that you wrote, was it directed towards everybody or.
- [42:48]
A
Yeah, for the most part. Like, I, you know, I write out kind of just like, I wish I was normal, I wish I was okay. You know, I write out like personal messages to a bunch of people. You know, I write out like, I hate the world to a certain degree. Right. Honestly, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't read the suicide note in 20 years.
- [43:12]
B
Did you leave that at home?
- [43:15]
A
Yeah. Monday morning, February 9, 2004. I, you know, I finish up the suicide note that I had started the night before and I, you know, I. My mom left for work early and she tells me she remembers, you know, she called me that morning because she would call me sometimes after she went to work just to make sure that I was up and, you know, she thinks I'm going off to the community college. And she tells me the one thing she remembers from that phone call is that I said I love you to her first. You know, Normally as a 16 year old boy, she would say I love you, and I would say it back. She said she remembers that morning. I said at first. And that sticks out, you know, to her to this day because she was just kind of like, oh, that's sweet. But also in her mind, she's just kind of like, that's so different.
- [44:23]
B
Going to the school, were you scared?
- [44:26]
A
I was numb. I tell people, you know, I, I drove in to the school. It was, you know, second or third period by that time. I'm, you know, I, I bring a backpack, I bring. The shotgun is in its case, which is like this hard black plastic case, which anybody just looking at it, they're not gonna expect it to be, you know, for, for a gun. But, you know, when you're walking into a school, they're gonna think it's a instrument or something like that. And I knew that. And yeah, so I, I would walk into the school right through the front door. There was nobody there. There was no, at that time, no real security. I mean, this is a couple years after Columbine, but this is not a period where there's a lot of like school resource officers or metal detectors or security. And yeah, walk right through the door. There wasn't even anybody from administration to like sign me in or anything. And I walk right in and, and I head up to the second floor and now it's like slowly starting to feel real as I'm walking up the stairs and I hear all these Classes going on, and I'm like, okay, I just need to go and hide for a minute. And so I went into the bathroom, I go into the stall, and, you know, now it's real. Now it's no longer me just, like, sitting at home depressed and angry. Now it's. I'm freaking out a little bit. And, you know, I. I try, like, calling one of my friends. I tried texting, you know, him, and. And I think it was just. I just wanted to, like, to talk to somebody, which is, like, maybe not even open up to them about what I'm doing, but just. Just to hear somebody that could maybe calm me down a little bit.
- [46:25]
B
And going into this. Did you plan. Did you have a plan?
- [46:29]
A
I didn't really have a plan. Like, I had different ideas in my head about, like, you know, just walking into one of the classrooms and just simply, like, just blowing my head off in front of everybody. I had other ideas of, like, just walking in and just, you know, like, going around, just, like, shooting into the ceiling, just scaring the out of everybody, waiting for the police to show up and just having, like, you know, like, one of those, like, Hollywood scenes of, like, shooting out the window, not at anybody, but just kind of, like, dying, you know, suicide by cop. And, yeah, I didn't really have a plan, so I didn't really have anything that, like, set in motion. Like, as soon as I walk in there, I just kind of freak out and, like, freeze up. And that's why I went into the bathroom, and that's. I'm sitting in there, like, I'm, like, trying to text or call. But this is also, like, early 2000s, when texting in school wasn't as big. And so now I'm feeling, you know, just kind of stuck. And I feel like I'm at the point of no return because now I'm afraid of walking out and trying to sneak out of the school to go home and getting caught on my way out, because it's much easier to come in than it is to go out. And so now I'm thinking, this is the point of no return, and I have no choice. This is it, and I'm going to die right here. And, yeah, so after I'd been in the bathroom for, like, I'd say, like, a good 30 minutes or so, maybe longer, I hear the bell go off. So classes are ending for the one period, and kids are coming out into the hall. There's a couple kids who come right into the bathroom not knowing. I'm literally sitting there in the bathroom stall with the shotgun in my hand. And, like, I still remember them talking. And so I'm just kind of sitting there like, I. I don't know what the I'm doing. And, you know, when people are, like, right there especially, it's like, more and more real, and I'm like, I don't know if I can do this. I don't know if I can, like, really, like, kill myself in front of people. But after a couple minutes, people are leaving. You know, I hear the bell go off, the next period is starting. And I'm like, I. I have to do this. That's what I'm telling myself. Like, I have to do this. This is it, man. I. I could have. I could have done so much more to stop myself. And I wish I had, obviously. And I always want people to know, you can always stop yourself. I could have called my therapist. I could have called my mom. I could have called fucking 91 1. You know, I could have done anything. But instead I was like, nothing's going to change if I. I. Even if I sneak out, even if I go home right now, nothing is going to change. My life will still be miserable. I'll still hate myself. I'm still thinking I don't have any hope for a better future. And I'm still blaming them. I'm still not taking personal accountability. So I'm like it. And I'd step out of the stall, shotgun in hands, and I start to leave the bathroom, and that's when I run into the first student who. He's literally, like, coming into the bathroom as I'm coming out. And he's closer to me than you are, and he just freezes. Because what fucking kid expects to see that? And he's just frozen in front of me. And, you know, I'm just looking at him, and I felt nothing. And, yeah, he just, like. After a moment or two, he just like, you know, he literally says, this can't be happening. And he turns around and he runs. And I just walk out. And now I'm just walking through the halls. And as I come around the corner of one hallway, I'm looking down this hall, it's probably about 40ft long. And then there's two other students who are coming around the other end, and they see me, and again, they freeze. Because what kid expects to see that? And one of them, he even yells, how? Oh, shit. And I remember that because next thing I know, there's a teacher in one of the classrooms right there in the hallway. She doesn't know what's going on. Nobody knows what's going on except a handful of kids who have seen me. And to her, she hears a student cursing, and she yells out, watch your mouth. And, you know, it's at that point that I basically turn the gun up and away a little bit, and I fire. I fire off the first round. And now these two kids, they're thinking I'm shooting at them. They're running for their lives. And now everybody hears that first shot. And I fire off again, you know, into an empty hallway. But I'm just angry now. Now I'm just like, you know,
- [51:16]
B
I
- [51:16]
A
don't even want to say I was angry. Now I'm just feeling it. I'm feeling the fucking release. Maybe. Maybe that's a better way to phrase it. But now I'm just walking around. The hallway is empty. Most of the doors are closed. And there's this one door that was just wide open, and I just walk over to it. You know, I just stand in this doorway, and I look into this classroom full of kids hiding from me, me. And I remember the teacher, she's at the front of the class, and she's, like, underneath a table that was, like, right in front of the chalkboard. And she just stares at me, and, you know, she just cries out, oh, Lord. And there's this one girl in the middle of the class. Like, she pops her head up from beneath her desk because she's like, a friend of a friend. And I was just out with a whole bunch of people on Saturday, and here we are Monday morning. So she's just looking at me, like, terrified, but also confused of, like, you know, she doesn't understand, why me? Why would this be happening? I felt nothing. I felt absolutely nothing. And I've. I don't know why I went over there. Like, I've had mental health specialists in law enforcement tell me it's like, the pathway of least resistance. That's why it's so important. Unfortunately for schools, we have to deal with this today still. But, like, just a simple closed door can help save lives, right? Because a lot of times a shooter or any type of criminal will go for the pathway of least resistance. And I just, you know, I walked over and, yeah, I wish I'd done so many things differently, obviously, but I would end up just turning around and walking away from that classroom and just walking through the halls again, just waiting for police. Now, basically, in my mind, I'm like, I'm ready. I don't want to see anybody else. I just Want to die. I just want this to be over. But by that time, because a little bit of time has gone by since I fired those first two shots. And so there was an assistant principal. He came to investigate. I would later find out he thinks that somebody's setting off firecrackers or something. Nobody's. If you weren't, like, in the close vicinity, nobody's thinking there's a shooting going on. Somebody's thinking there's firecrackers or some other explanation for what's happening. So he comes to investigate, and he sees me walking away, and he runs up behind me, and I, you know, carrying the shotgun down at my waist. So he reaches around me and he grabs, you know, the barrel and the stock, and he basically just, like, squeezes me between the shotgun and himself because, like, I'm a big guy, but he's a big guy, too. And, you know, I'm just like. At first, I'm just trying to, like, push away, you know, push the gun away to kind of get him off my back, and that's not working. And, like, you know, I'm just, like, struggling for a bit. And, you know, after a while, I just start to, like, try to, like, shake him off my back. Like, literally, like, shaking because, like, we're standing up, but, like, you know, he's a big guy, but I was, like, a little bit taller. So I'm thinking, like, I can just get some leverage and just shake him off, off. And that's not working. And as I'm, like, going back and forth, my fingers on the trigger, the gun goes off. And I didn't know that there was a teacher coming up behind us to help disarm me. And I didn't know until later that I just shot a man. You know, he gets hit in the shin. Thankfully, his injuries aren't that severe. But how do you fucking feel as a teacher who's there helping kids to end up getting shot? How, you know, it doesn't matter how severe his, you know, wounds are. He was shot. I shot somebody. And, you know, in that moment, I didn't even know. In that moment, I didn't feel anything. I didn't feel the relief I was looking for. I didn't feel the satisfaction I was looking for, for any part of any of this. And I just basically, like, now I can't get this fucking guy off my back. I can't get control of the gun, and I just let go, and I just say, fine. I give up. Like, with zero emotion, zero feeling remorse, anything. I just Say like, fine, I give up. You know, and that was it. You know, he, he just kind of like, you know, he, he grabs the shotgun. He like grabs me by, like, the back of my jacket and, you know, he brings me over to this teacher's office. And I remember the teacher's office was locked and he's knocking on it, and I still remember the teacher was crying and I, and, But he's telling him, he's like, it's over. You're safe. I've got him. I just need to get into your office. And so that was it. They just kind of like put me in there, you know, told me to lay down and waited for the police to show up and. Yeah, so, you know, I'm always grateful that he grabbed me. You know, I, I, I purposely never name anybody's name, but I'll, you know, out of respect. It feels horrific for me to say anybody's name, but I'll say this. The, the assistant principal who grabbed me, he, he passed away a couple years ago. And sometimes people ask me, like, how, how do I feel? Like I even, you know, I remember I had journalists and people calling me the day that he died. And, and I, you know, I had nothing to say then out of respect. But I'll say this, I've always been grateful because I would have been dead if not for him. And I wish I could have said that to him. And yeah, so I, I don't know. I spent 17 years in prison for that. It doesn't make up for it. It doesn't take it back. It doesn't undo any. The pain, the suffering that so many people went through because of me. Nothing I do, nothing I say will ever undo that, will never take back anything thing. My only hope, my only goal is to make sure that other communities don't go through that, that other schools, students, staff, that they don't go through it. My only goal now is basically like, my only mission in life, it feels like, is to, is to even help those who are in a dark place so that they know they don't have to do anything like this. You're not going to get any relief that you want. You're not going to, you know, the revenge fantasies don't work out, out in the end, you know, you can get your life back on track, you know, in other ways, obviously. But so many of us, sometimes we think we can heal ourself by hurting others, and that's just not how it is. You're not going to do anything but hurt others and hurt yourself and push yourself further into a darkness, even if it's the last moments of your life. Because I've had kids who are in a dark place open up to me and talk about, like, I don't care how I feel because I'll just die shortly thereafter anyways. And I'm like, listen, you don't want your last moments on this planet to be in a depression, to be in a darkness, to be leaving behind nothing but pain and sorrow. You know, if you hate the way your life is, if you hate the way the world is, the best thing you can do is work on healing by finding those who are willing to. To list and to help and to support. And sometimes that feels like an impossible mission. But that's why I try to do what I can, and that's why I try to, like, give voice to others who are doing the same thing. Because there's so many of us out here who have been through the darkness in one way or another, who just want to help others who are going through that same darkness and just want you to know you're not alone. None of us are alone. It feels like that all too often. But did.
- [59:44]
B
After the cops came and you got arrested, and it kind of leads into that chapter of your life. Did you ever have a conversation with any of your friends about it?
- [59:54]
A
Yeah. So after the shooting, I had some of my friends, you know, who were there that day. They. Some still kept in touch while I was, you know, first in county jail and later, you know, went to prison. Prison. I had some friends who just wanted nothing to ever do with me again. And I understand that, obviously. And, yeah, sometimes when I was in jail, like, some of my friends knew that they just wanted to be there for me. They didn't. They wanted to ask me why, but they also, like, wanted me to open up at my own pace.
- [60:29]
B
And I'm sure they were all shocked, of course.
- [60:31]
A
Yeah. No, everybody's shocked. Everybody. You know, like, it's kind of one of those situations where everybody's left saying, like, nobody would expect this from me.
- [60:41]
B
What about your mom?
- [60:42]
A
My mom was absolutely fucking devastated.
- [60:45]
B
Yeah.
- [60:45]
A
You know, I. I've. I've definitely put her through so much, and, you know, it's. It's. It's strange sometimes when we're in that depression and we think about, you know, suicide or all types of things, and we think that nobody's really going to care there. Right. You know, but I had family and friends who absolutely loved me. And I used to, like, the. The morning of the shooting, I literally thought like, you know, maybe I should just go off into the woods and kill myself. And I remember thinking like I was, I was in such a place that I thought, like, I can walk off and kill myself and nobody's gonna notice for, for a while. Like I could literally even it once my family, you know, realizes something's off. Like, I could be dead and buried and most of my friends would never even notice for a while. Like, but in reality, like, I had a lot of people who cared about me and a lot of people who like, like I said, I was not as social as I once was, but looking to strengthen your health and well being. Tune in to the Dr. Tina show, one of Apple podcasts top alternative health shows. I'm Dr. Tina Moore, naturopathic physician and chiropractor and I cover topics like metabolic health, chronic diseases, pain management and more with expert interviews and solo episodes. I keep it no nonsense with a science backed approach to empower you to improve your health and resilience. New episodes every Thursday produced by by Drake Peterson and Wellness Loud. And even for those who feel like they don't have any friends, even for those who feel like nobody's really there, you know, especially like you said earlier, there's so many pros and cons of social media today. You can connect with so many people who are going through the same exact thing that you're going through and sometimes it's from people in places you would never expect. When I was in prison, you know, I would not only, when I did eventually open up, up, I would not only connect with my friends and share with them some of the things about my life and talk about the sexual abuse and talk about the depression. And sometimes some of my friends would open up about their own depression. Especially some, some of my friends, you know, they would, I would tell them, please feel comfortable, tell me how you felt after the shooting and everything. Like, you know, I need to know these things.
- [63:13]
B
How long into prison did you get to that point?
- [63:16]
A
You know, honestly, it took me a couple years where I was, where I was like really into this self help kind of healing journey because first in prison I was just kind of like it, I don't care, like I didn't feel anything.
- [63:31]
B
And it's not like you just snap out of that like state.
- [63:34]
A
No, I'm just kind of in this dark mindset where I'm also just like not willing to face what I've done. And I'm also just kind of like, all right, I'm going to be in prison. For a long time. Might as well just get used to prison, you know.
- [63:48]
B
How many years?
- [63:50]
A
20 years of which, you know, with good time. I served about 17.
- [63:54]
B
Okay.
- [63:54]
A
But yeah, so I didn't really open up and start to work on myself for the first three or four years at least. And when I did first start to open up and really like challenge my, my mindset, my depression, all these crazy thoughts that I would have at different times, you know, even when I just opened up, even when I first told my. Actually I first told my sister about the sexual abuse. I'd been in prison for a couple years and I told her before I told anybody else. And it was just like a weight off my shoulders. You know, it's literally when people say that, it's because you don't realize how much some of this, like these things that we hold onto, how much they, like physically are taking a toll on us. It's when I opened up, I just felt a release and I would continue to just feel better the more I opened up and talked to people. And I was able to find, sometimes it might just be like some family on a visit or in a letter and then eventually even other prisoners who are working on themselves and turning their lives around. And that's when I tell people, like, yeah, I'm this middle class white suburban kid opening up and talking with like, I had some guys I used to have deep conversations with who were like, one guy grew up from California, west coast. You know, he's, he's, you know, gang banging, all that. And we had some deep conversations sometimes in the yard. And it's just kind of like you never expect it, you know, like, prison is not all like what Hollywood portrays it as. There's a lot of like, deep conversations happening. And sometimes it's, it's. Yeah, I just kind of put myself out there. I'm just kind of like, you know, most people are like, nerdy looking white kid, what the are you doing here? But I also had such a high profile crime. Like, most people would hear about it pretty quickly and sometimes. Yeah, like this, this one kid I told you about. Yeah, he, he told me about the first time he went to jail, was out in, I think he was literally from Compton. He got caught. He had a sawed off shotgun in his book bag, you know, so he was just kind of like, he came up to me and it was one of those crazy, weird conversations. He's like, yo, I heard you got caught with a shotgun. And you know, like. And I was just kind of like, yeah, you Know, and he was like, that's, that's what I did as a kid too. And I'm just like, what the. We just, we started having this conversation, but we started like having like this deep conversation. And that's why I tell people, like, sometimes you just got to put yourself out there or you got to be willing to listen to others because we can connect with all types of people. And social media, that's one of the benefits from it, right? And yeah, I've really had a lot of connections with people. And to go back to you asking about, like with my friends. Yeah, some of my friends, they stuck by me and they visited me. One of my friends, you know, 10 years into my sentence, she had a kid. And here I'm on, you know, the visit floor holding this baby. And so I was blessed through support from family, friends, people in the community reached out to me while I was in prison in a positive way. Right. Obviously there was a lot of hate and anger and confusion, but with the positive support that I got, it didn't work instantly. But slowly and surely people kind of like were able to get through to me and they were able to help me see hope for a better future in my life.
- [67:34]
B
And did they start you back on medication at any point in there?
- [67:38]
A
Yeah, so I was on medication for a little bit while I was locked up. But to be honest, after like a year or so, I. I came off of it because some of the side effects from some medications, I was rarely like, you know, sleepy, like, not, I tell people, like, brain fog is not something you want to have in prison. Sometimes you want to be as aware of your surroundings as possible. But yeah, it was mostly through just like that, talk therapy. Not even with a therapist in prison because there's not always the great therapist. There's not therapist available sometimes. But just opening up and connecting with friends and family and even other prisoners is one of the things that really helped me turn my life around. Opening up, realizing that no, there is not something inherently wrong with me. You know, what I did or what I experienced as a child, when I was sexually abused as a child, just a simple realization that I did not do something gross and disgusting. As a six year old, I had something gross and disgusting done to me. Just that simple realization, it really just kind of helped me see things differently. And yeah, I had to then work through this horrific shooting that I have now imposed all types of trauma on countless people. And I'll still to this day I'll never truly understand everything that people went through because of me. But, you know, the more that I opened up, the better I felt. And I was able to connect with so many people and realize that, okay, as one therapist would eventually tell me, shame and guilt are good when they break you down and you're able to rebuild yourself better. But when you keep yourself down, when you keep just like that self hatred that I still deal with, when you still just say, like, no, I'm a piece of shit, I hate myself, I'm never going to amount to anything. When we're stuck in that mode, we're not helpful to ourselves or others. And it's just about, how can I, I snap myself out of it, how can I realize that, yes, you know, even me, I've done something truly horrific. But you know what? I can turn my life around and I can amount to something. And that's why I do what I do today. And talking with others about what led me down this dark path, because it's also therapeutic for me to be able to share with others and to be able to prevent other shootings from happening is then what I realized. Like, that's my mission, that's my goal. That's why I feel like I'm still alive.
- [70:25]
B
Did you decide to start sharing your story or that you were going to do that while you were in prison or did that kind of come after you got out?
- [70:33]
A
So when I was in prison, I had some friends who were into like AA and na and you know, I never dealt with addiction, but, like, they would come to me and they'd be like, dude, this is what we do in AA and na. We share our stories and sometimes we share with kids and adults about our addiction and, you know, how we're able to overcome it. And one of my friends, his name was Mick, I still remember him being like, that's what you need to do. He's like, you have an insane story. You need to get out there and share with people. Because again, we're watching even from prison, we're watching the whores on the news happening all too often in American schools. And he's like, like, you need to get out there and talk with people. And I'm like, you know, like, I didn't believe in myself. And even when I first started, like thinking about it, you know, it was more of just kind of like maybe. And I didn't know until I came home and, you know, some local law enforcement, the school resource officers, when they wanted to talk to me, I was like, oh, maybe there is a possibility of me opening up and sharing Maybe I really can make a positive difference and help people.
- [71:43]
B
There was fear in sharing, too?
- [71:45]
A
Oh, definitely. So the first conference I speak at was in upstate New York, local to me. And when I agreed to it, I didn't realize it was going to be with, like, hundreds of people. I didn't know that some of the other speakers were survivors of mass shootings. One woman, she had kids who were in Sandy Hook. And so I'm, like, freaking out. Like, I don't know if these people want me here. Here? Yeah, you know, like, they. They've been through because of people like me. You know, why would they want to be in the same room as me? And I literally, like, you know, I'm having a panic attack in a back room, and I'm explaining to this one cop, and he's like, listen, he's like, if you want, I'll go and talk to, you know, to that speaker, and I'll see if she wants to say anything or speak to you. And one of the other speakers, who. Who, who. Her husband was a responder to a school shooting in Nevada. She came to me and she said, listen, as hard as it is to hear from you, we need every perspective. We need everybody we can to help out. And she said, you have a very unique perspective. We might not want you here, but we need you here. And that's when I just kind of like, okay. And after that first big conference and. And, you know, like, fighting back the anxiety, the fears, I wasn't sure what to expect. And as an ex convict who spent most of my life in prison, when I had cops and, you know, mental health specialists, school administrators, afterwards coming up to me and thanking me and shaking my hand, I was like, okay. Like, maybe this is the path I need to go on. And so, yeah, even at that point, like, I. I was on social media a little bit because people were telling me, like, like, okay, as hard as it is for people to hear from you, like, just putting even just a little bit of your story out there can help. And the pros outweigh the cons because I knew from the start I didn't want to do any public speaking in the beginning. Like, I was like, it sounds good, but no, like, because I know how much trauma people have been through because of me and what it would be like for them to see or hear from me. But people were like, listen, the pros are going to outweigh the cons overall. And that's when I just, yeah, like, started putting myself out there more and more because, you Know, if. If I can help, which I know for a fact I've stopped a few horrific things from happening, you know, then that's what I'm gonna do. A couple years ago, there was a lot of backlash. Like I went viral for all the wrong reasons. Right. I was the guy that everybody was talking about and they hated me. And I completely understand it. And people, you know, they'll say that I'm a liar, that I'm doing all of this for money and fame. And I'm like, I don't do this for money. You know, I don't get paid for these conferences. I don't get paid to be here right now. You know, I'm literally doing this because this is why I'm not killing myself today.
- [74:50]
B
Yeah.
- [74:50]
A
You know, this is why I stay alive.
- [74:54]
B
Purpose.
- [74:54]
A
This is what gives me purpose. You know, this isn't how I make money. I. I don't benefit off of this by any way except to know that I'm making a positive difference for some people. And that's it. That's why I'm. I'm keep pushing forward.
- [75:10]
B
Yeah. You know, and, you know, whether it's a story like yours or something completely opposite, there's always going to be people that have things to say that are negative. And I think that, like you said, understandably so, people have of hate and trauma towards your story. But I also feel like it's important to see the light in your story and that we are able to have a perspective from somebody that was on the side that you were on, because a lot of times we don't and we'll never. I think a lot of people always have those questions and they're never answered.
- [75:45]
A
Yeah. And that's one of the biggest things is when law enforcement or mental health specialization specialists are dealing with a person of concern who they think might be on the pathway to violence is what they call it. Right. De escalation is always possible. And we want people to always know that just because somebody is maybe on the wrong path, is on the dark path, we can always get them off the path. And I try to say, hey, you know, I'm somebody who did get to the point of violence and attack, but if I'm able to turn my life around, around, so can anybody else.
- [76:18]
B
And I mean, even just you sharing your perspective of the lack of support at the school, if even just a random teacher hears this and then were to see some red flags, even if it wasn't considered a red flag, but like, you know, a kid was going into a mental health hospital for a week, even just being that one person or that one teacher that reaches out just to be like, if there's anything you need, you know, I think people don't realize how big of a difference even that can make.
- [76:43]
A
Yes.
- [76:43]
B
And I think. I think that's just another very important perspective to consider and be aware of.
- [76:48]
A
Yeah. I tell teachers all the time, right. Because I'm able to talk with some teachers and administrative folk from schools, and I'm like, yeah, sometimes the smallest bits of, you know, compassion can make a huge difference in somebody's life. You never know what other people are going through. And that simple act of compassion and being able to, like, be that person who just simply says something about, like, you know, hey, if you ever want to talk, or simply just opening up a little bit to. To a student checking in, that can. You'll never know what you're able to affect in somebody's life. Right. None of us know truly how much we affect other people's lives. And, you know, if we want to affect other people's lives, we want to do it through compassion as much as possible. And I, you know, I. I've, obviously, I've done a lot of harm, and. But today, like, that's why I try to do what I can as much as possible. I try to stay positive when I can. It's hard in today to stay positive, but, you know, sometimes when I'm feeling bad, like, that's. That's why I try to do the small acts of kindness. That's why I still donate to the homeless shelter that I used to work at. I mean, that's a whole other part of my life still. Story, you know, is I. I worked at a homeless shelter after coming home from prison. You know, I had another job before it, but I was like, you know, I don't want to just make money. I want to help the community that I once hurt. I want to be somebody who can make that positive difference in people's lives. And, yeah, I started volunteering at the shelter, and they're like, hey, put in your resume if you want to work here. And I was like, great, because I literally quit my other job wanting to do something like this. And so I start working at the shelter, and I loved it. And I tell people, like, you know, helping others is how I really, like, truly feel. Like, I come, like, as healed as I can be is through helping others like that. When I was running this clothing pantry and I was able to, like, you know, do donation drives and, oh, we don't have a lot of men's clothing. I got my boss to agree, like, we set up this big men's clothes clothing just specifically for men's clothing, because at homeless shelters a lot of women are donating a lot of clothes because the fashion industry is much different for women than for men. And so I'm like, okay, here's the need that we have men's clothing. I was able to get this big donation drive going and we had all this stuff for guys that summer and it felt great. It felt amazing to be the person who is helping others that people turn to for, hey, I need help. Can you get me this? And that felt so good. And you know, but again, when you're working with the homeless population, there's a lot of trauma that they're going through, a lot of mental health issues that they're going through. Even if you don't have issues going into being homeless, spend a few weeks living on the streets and you're going to be going, you know, thinking a whole lot differently. And yeah, so I've been working there for a while and I love, loved it. But one day during lunchtime I was down in the cafeteria area helping out down there and we had this one guy who comes in. I don't recognize him, but like, whatever, we're just a drop in shelter. He comes in to get his lunch and he starts arguing with one of my co workers. And so me and two other co workers were just kind of like, hey, we're just here to help. We try to de escalate and let him know. We just try to be respectful. We just ask that you be respectful and respond. And I don't know what his issue was, but he just kind of like up, down, you know, back and forth for a while. And you try to de escalate so many times. But as he's like making threatening comments towards me and some of the guests, after a while it's like, all right, you know, I go and I talk with my boss. My boss says, I, you know, just ask him to leave. And so I told him, hey, you know, I think it's time for you to go. Come back tomorrow. I hope you're feeling better. You know, like, I'm not. You know, sometimes we like suspend somebody for a while. Like, just come back tomorrow. I hope you're feeling better tomorrow. We got you, don't worry. And you know, he's just kind of like, all right. And he gets real quiet and he asks if he can go and get his property in the locker room that we have because we allow people to like, lock stuff up in the locker room and say, yeah, sure, go for it. And he. He goes and gets his stuff and I go and sit back down with my co workers. And, you know, so we're in this big room with a couple dozen people and my boss comes downstairs to check up on the situation. We're just kind of like, oh, yeah, no, it's all good. Like, he's just getting his stuff. And like a moment later, like, my boss, he just starts screaming out, like, watch out. And you know, I just kind of like look up and like, you know, there's people standing around, but I just kind of like look and see this guy. He's walking straight at me and it doesn't click in my brain. He has something in his hands, but I don't know, it doesn't register. And I black out. I. I don't remember the initial beginning of the attack, but we didn't have security, we didn't have metal detectors. And in a duffel bag that he had, had. He had swords. And so he came at me. And I've actually spoken with people and everything like that. I'm sitting down, he starts swinging sword at me. And I just kind of like duck and do my best, like, freaking out as now I'm the one who's freezing up, not realizing what's about to happen. And I managed to kind of like get up and away, but I had put up my hand to protect my head and thankfully I did. And he. He almost completely cut off my hand and I got up and ran away. And we're in like a downstairs and
- [82:42]
B
he was just attacking you and he
- [82:43]
A
was just coming for me because I was the one who asked him to leave. So he got pissed off at me. And so, like, I get up, I managed to. To run away, but like, the cafeteria area is kind of like in like the basement area. So I go to like, go up the stairs for the main exit and. And I don't even remember that. All I remember is going up the stairs, he hits me in my back with the sword. And I fall like up onto the stairs and I turn around and I just start like kicking at him. And that's when he starts to chop up my legs. And I mean, it's. It's been almost four years now, but you know, like, he almost completely cuts off my right leg from the knee because he cuts my kneecap in half. And you know, I have scars all up and down my. Both legs.
- [83:35]
B
So he Was he got you everywhere?
- [83:37]
A
Oh, yeah. Like I said, like, I'm on the stairs, and, like, he's lower, so, like, I'm kicking at him, and he's cutting at my legs with both hands. And. Yeah. So at that time, you know, he had just gotten my left hand, and. And. But then, like, you know, my co workers, and everybody starts, like, screaming and yelling at him. Like, somebody, I think, tried to, like, hit him with a broomstick, I hear, you know. But, like, yeah, he's a bigger guy. He's also hopped up on adrenaline or whatever. Like, and people ask, why didn't your co workers grab him? He was swinging a sword, right? Yeah.
- [84:10]
B
That was clearly doing a lot of damage.
- [84:12]
A
Like. Like, I. I'm not. I've never been mad at my co workers or anybody else for. For not grabbing him, but, like, they're kind of, like, screaming at him, and, like, he couldn't get past my legs. Like, even as my legs are like, bleeding and literally falling apart. Like, I'm just, like, holding them up to block him from getting to my head. And. And so after. After a couple moments, he. He just kind of walks away. Like, he goes. And I find out later he went into, like, the locker room, and now my co workers, they're, you know, like, crying over me. And at this moment, you know, like, I'm still kind of conscious.
- [84:47]
B
Yeah.
- [84:47]
A
And I'm like, you know, like, literally telling one of my co workers, like, I'm dying, and she's like, no, you're not. Don't worry. Like, it's bad, but you're not dying. Like, you're okay. But then he comes back, and, you know, my one co worker, she's, like, hunched over me, and she's telling him no, and. And he's like, move, you know, and he basically kind of, like, gestures towards her with the sword, and she. She moved out the way. And at that time, like, I can barely hold up my legs anymore, so I just kind of, like, cover up. And, you know, I have a tattoo to cover up a lot of the scars and everything, but, you know, he almost. He had already almost completely cut off my left hand, and then he almost cut off my right hand. And. And, yeah, so he caught me right here as well. Like, thankfully, like, the sword bounced off my wrist, and so it didn't hit me, like, too horrifically as it could have, but he thankfully just missed my jugular, and one of the other blows hit me right here, thankfully, just missing my eye. But. But, yeah, he. He was just, like, wildly swinging at Me, he actually, when he. He left the first time, went to the locker room, he grabbed a second sword. And so he was literally just like, wildly swinging at me with two swords. And, yeah, all I could do was just, like, ball up and protect my head. And, yeah, after a while, he. He just stops and walks away and leaves. And now. Now there's no doubt everybody knows I'm dying. But also I tell people, like, I accepted it, you know, and there was something powerful in that moment when I was no longer freaking out, when I accepted that I was dying. And I also tell people at that point, I'd been home from prison for about a year and a half, and I had connected with some of my old classmates. Obviously, there was still a lot of hate and anger towards me, but some people reached out to me for healing. I had connected with family. I had started up this job where I was helping people. I had talked with law enforcement and mental health specialists and school officials, the FBI, and had done what I could to help prevent others from going into their school with a gun, like I did. So at that point, I just felt like I made it home. I did what I could to help. I'm okay with this. And, you know, obviously, I survived. I mean, when the first responders and everybody got there, yeah, my. My co workers had, like, wrapped me up with towels and trying to, like, stop the bleeding. First responders would later tell me nobody thought I was going to survive. They did their best to wrap me up as best they could, get me into the ambulance, and I went into a coma for a couple days. And they even told my family, like, we don't know if he's going to wake up or not. Not. Thankfully, I did for a while. I used to question why. Why am I still here? Why am I still alive? You know? And I tell people my work's not done. I still have to do more. You know, and sometimes, you know, sometimes I. Sometimes I hate doing this. I'm not gonna lie.
- [89:19]
B
Yeah.
- [89:19]
A
But I feel like it's. It is my mission. It's my purpose. It's.
- [89:24]
B
It's never easy.
- [89:25]
A
It's never easy, but it's the reason why I'm still alive. You know, I. I tell people I'm not really religious. I didn't think about God or the afterlife as I was dying, dying. I just thought about, like, family, friends, and, like, the world I was leaving behind. But I tell people, if there is some God or, you know, universal power, I'm here for a reason. You know, Some people, they say, oh, well, this was, you know, God punishing me or this was my karma. And I tell people, you know, if. If you believe in any of that, God or karma could have killed me and sent me to hell, but instead, I survived that day. And I honestly believe if there is any type of bigger meaning and purpose in life, then I was kept alive for a reason. And even if there's not a bigger meaning or purpose in life, I find it within me to keep pushing to help because I can't right my wrongs, but I can help others, and that's what I'm going to continue to do.