Loading summary
Transcript350 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hey guys, it's me, Dvorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane. Plus this week's bonus episode is called My Brain Was Slipping into My Spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane. Plus inside your Spotify or Apple podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com girl.
- [00:24]
B
Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.
- [00:55]
A
Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.
- [01:20]
B
I'm Ginny Parim and I'm a keynote speaker. It's so weird to say a bestselling author.
- [01:26]
A
It's amazing. It's truly. I was reading about it last night and I was like, that's incredible.
- [01:30]
B
Yeah, so it's fun. It's like, it's wild. I was actually texting with a friend last night and she, she goes, oh, you're a TV star. I said, well, I don't know about that because she was watching my primetime segment and she goes, yeah, But I bet 10 years ago you didn't ever think you'd say you're a best selling author. And I was like, you know what? That's fair. So I'm getting comfortable with that. I also have a podcast and I'm a coach. But all of that is because of what I went through and all of the work that I do today is it stems from that. And so basically I was living kind of like my dream life. I had the big corporate job, the big title. I was traveling all the time. I worked in medical aesthetics, in various leadership roles, and I was on a work trip. I traveled pretty much every week for work. And I was in Birmingham, Alabama, and I was flying Home. And a friend wanted to urgently meet for cocktails when I landed that night, and it was a Tuesday night. And she texted me. She's like, what time do you land? I said, 9:37pm Wine. She's like, can you meet for a cocktail? And I was like, in the middle of the night on a Tuesday, Right? I mean, like, I love a. A good cocktail.
- [02:38]
A
I love wine, but maybe with some, like, notice.
- [02:40]
B
Yeah. But at 10pm like, that where I need to, like, get in my car, race from the airport. So all day I'm going, what is going on with her? Yeah, like, what is so big? Is everything okay? And I texted her that. I said, is everything okay? And she said, it will be. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, does she have cancer? Is she getting divorced? Like, is her kid sick? What's going on? And I get there and she's crying and has an empty drink, and I got another one on the way. I'm not sure if that was her first. And she has a stack of papers in front of her. And I slide into the booth and I reach across the table and, like, put my hand on her arm, and I'm like, I've been so worried about you all day. What is going on? And I'm. In my mind, I'm going, how do I show up and, like, be a good, supportive friend for whatever? Is clearly something major happening right now. And she said, it's not about me, it's about you. It's actually about Chad, my partner that was living at home. He was at home in my bed at that time. He and his kids were living with me. And she proceeds to display this arrangement of evidence that he was basically living a double life. He was not who I thought he was at all. And I'm just sitting there processing it. So I go home and I confront him. And so a lot of people will ask, well, like, what is the evidence? Right? Like, was he just cheating? And I even hate when people say that. Like, was he just cheating? Oh, cheating is bad, period. But the scale of what was happening underneath my own nose, which is wild because I feel like I'm a pretty aware, you know, smart person. But it doesn't have anything to do with that when you find yourself in a situation like this. So I get in my car and I go home and I turn on all the lights. And this was weird. I actually love to tell this part because he. Which I think this is just so creepy. He loves to tell people that he doesn't wear underwear and that he sleeps naked. So I get home and he's in bed, and the kids are downstairs, and I just flip on the lights and I just start asking him questions. I was very strategic about how I asked the questions, though. I was very vague. And I just would ask him, well, how do you know this person? How do you know this person? Where were you then? What were you doing at this time? But I didn't tell him who gave me the information, like, very, very little, because I wanted to see how much I could get out of. But what was odd about when I came home was he was in bed fully clothed. So I feel like he may have known the gig was up, you know, like something was going on.
- [05:27]
A
Quick question. When this was your best friend that you met, a close friend.
- [05:32]
B
Yeah.
- [05:33]
A
So when she told you it was about you and kind of broke the news about all of this evidence, what was your initial feeling?
- [05:42]
B
My initial feeling, it's so weird. Like, she actually kept saying this. She's like, how are you not falling apart right now? Like, how are you not sobbing uncontrollably? She's like, you're clearly in shock. And part of me, I didn't want to believe it. I think that's the truth is I didn't want to believe it even when she gave me a date. So she had done her due diligence with some of the dates that had been shared with her when he was with other women while I was traveling. And I was like, no, we had just gotten back from Italy. That. And she goes. I went back and I looked at our texting and our schedules, and I'm pretty sure you were in Florida that night. Just double check. And I double checked. And it was like a gut punch, right? It was like, oh, yeah. No, I was in Florida that night. And in fact, that night, that was about a month before this, I had. On that trip, I had a gut feeling, like, this is one of the things, like, trusting your intuition. I ignored my intuition this entire time. My intuition has never failed me. Yeah, right. Like, I can think of times where I. Here's a really great example of how my intuition, like, was spot on. I was on a work trip in Las Vegas, and I had the sense I was being followed to my hotel room down the hallway. It was at the Bellagio, which they have security, right? So how this guy slipped by, I'm not sure. And I was all the way at the end of the hallway, and for whatever reason, I sensed I was being followed. I looked over my shoulder, he acknowledged me and said, Hi. And I said hi. And I was like, something is wrong. And I literally, for whatever reason, acted quick. I hadn't really been drinking. I think I had two glasses of champagne all day or something. Like, so I was sober, I was alert. And I looked down at my card, looked up at the rooms. I was like, oh, I'm on the wrong floor. Turned around, walked back past him, and went down in the elevators and lost it. The security guys, I'm like, how did this guy get by? So it's like, my intuition has never failed me. Until you start to ignore it.
- [07:41]
A
I think, too, it's hard when it comes to relationships because I think that sometimes you can ask yourself, is it my intuition or is it fear? You know, whether it's fear of commitment or fear of falling in love or whatever it may be, I think it's very hard to trust yourself sometimes in those moments, you know, and we always should. But I think it's easier to question it when it comes to. Of relationship or when there's love involved. You almost become blind to it.
- [08:09]
B
Yeah. And I think you want to see the best in people. You know, like I said, I didn't want it to be true.
- [08:14]
A
Right.
- [08:15]
B
And so, you know, I go home, we talk, and maybe actually this is a good time to go all the way back to the beginning before, you know, we. We talk about what happened next. So, you know, before I met him, I was living my best life. I was traveling for work, traveling for fun. I had my two dogs, Emilio and Sadie, my little Pekinges, and they were just my little sidekick companions, and, you know, maintaining really great friendships. And I think a lot of people, especially women, we can tend to want to find a relationship, seek love, like, complete our lives. I really felt like my life was complete. I wasn't, you know, and I had been in relationships before, actually. I had been married very, very briefly. I always tell him, like, I tried it, it wasn't for me. That's okay. Nothing wrong with that.
- [09:02]
A
At least you got the experience.
- [09:03]
B
Yep. Got it out of my system. And I. I was seriously so happy, like, living such a great life. And I wasn't interested in necessarily. I was open to it, obviously, but not necessarily looking for it. And I get introduced to Chad, as I call him, which, by the way, is not his real name. I changed the name not to protect him, but to protect the children.
- [09:26]
A
Got it.
- [09:26]
B
So just to be clear about that, and we are introduced, like, it was kind of a casual encounter on a boat. And my. One of my best friends was in Town that weekend I actually had. Had a house. Did I have a housewarming party that weekend? I think I did. I had a housewarming party. I just moved into a new house. I was very excited. And so she was in town visiting and we went out on this boat and he was there. And she kept on like nudging me all day. She's like, oh my gosh, he is flirting with you so hard. And I was like, eh, you know, like just kind of brushing it off. Like, eh, nah. And part of it was because my life was so good, but also. Cause I knew he had two kids and I just didn't want to go there. You know, I'd been there before. I dated guys with kids and I was just like, you know, it's just probably not the best suited for me.
- [10:12]
A
Yeah. And that was the first time you met him?
- [10:13]
B
Yes.
- [10:14]
A
Okay.
- [10:15]
B
So I then go on a magical vacation with one of my girlfriends to Greece.
- [10:19]
A
Oh, that's amazing.
- [10:21]
B
And the entire time, I guess he was pestering someone for my phone number. Okay. And they wouldn't give it to him. Wouldn't give it to him. And then finally somebody gave him my phone number. And you know, just like through mutual connections or whatever. So I get, you know, then I start getting text messages from him. And then we ended up at a cabin. This is like before we're even officially dating. We end up at a. At a cabin for a weekend and spending time together, just, you know, like you get to know people. Right. And someone kept asking me like, oh, are you interested? Like, do you think? Like, are you interested? And I was like, I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't know. I'm not sure.
- [10:58]
A
So it wasn't just you and him in a cabin?
- [11:00]
B
No friends? Yeah.
- [11:01]
A
Okay.
- [11:01]
B
It was like a group of people.
- [11:02]
A
Got it.
- [11:03]
B
Small group. Not like a huge group or anything.
- [11:05]
A
Okay.
- [11:06]
B
So finally he asked me out and I was like, well, what's it gonna hurt? You know, it's just a date. So we go out, we start dating. And even just our first date, very extravagant, like over the top, like the nicest restaurant in Minneapolis. And then a U2 concert. And you know, it's like, how do you top that? That's not a typical first date. Right. So then it was every. And then it was literally like a part time job keeping up with the text messages. I mean, just showering me with compliments and I mean, like, they're pretty justified, but.
- [11:45]
A
Right.
- [11:45]
B
But you know, in hindsight, it's like, oh, the love bombing was hardcore. Right. I mean, it was just constant and. And then literally like two weeks in, or just like a few short weeks in, it was, I can't wait for you to meet my kids. And that took me back, like, in the moment. I remember that. And I was so taken back by it. He said that to me. We had, I think it was his birthday. And so we had. I had taken him on an overnight. Like, we had a little surprise party for him. Cause it was his 40th. And so we had a little surprise party for him. And then I got us a hotel room at the place where we had our first date. They had like a little BNB type of situation. And then the next morning, I'm driving him home and he was like, I can't wait for you to meet my kids. And I was like, we, like, just started dating. So we had dinner plans that night. And I remember sitting across the table and I was like, okay, you mentioned meeting your kids. Like, what does their mom say about that? Because for me, I'm like, I don't have biological children. Yeah. But if someone was going to be hanging around my kids, I'd want to know.
- [12:53]
A
Right.
- [12:53]
B
Spending all this time around my kids or who my kids are being introduced to, like, to me, I just. That's not something that I would ever take lightly.
- [13:00]
A
Yeah.
- [13:00]
B
And his response was, oh, we just trust each other. And I just thought that was so interesting.
- [13:06]
A
Yeah.
- [13:07]
B
And then even, you know, like, then I did meet the kids and I was like, well, I should probably meet their mom. Right. Like, same thing. Like, I would want to. I would want to know and meet who's hanging around my kids. And so I gave all these options. I was like, I want it to be on her terms, like if she wants to get together for a glass of wine or a cup of coffee or just when I'm doing school pickup or drop off. Because she was actually a teacher at one of the kids schools and like, nothing. So then I like checked back in and he was like, oh, she just wants to meet at school. I was like, okay, that's fine. I respect that. Right. Like, I learned later that he never even had that conversation with her, but he would have never wanted the two of us to be in the same room having a glass of wine or a cup of coffee, to have any sort of conversation. So things are going along.
- [14:02]
A
And how far in are we right now?
- [14:04]
B
I mean, early. Like at that point, we're just like a couple months in.
- [14:08]
A
Okay.
- [14:08]
B
And even in the early Days, like, in the first few weeks, like, around that time when it was like, I want you to meet my kids. He's, like, planning trips for us, like, six 12 months out. And I even remember, I was like, maybe we can talk about it when it gets a little closer, you know, type of thing. I was like, I go, that's a long ways away.
- [14:26]
A
Did he ever say anything about living together very fast?
- [14:31]
B
But guess where we lived? In my house. Yeah. So I think we're about six months in. So we spend the holidays together, Right. Like, as a. As a family, we kind of become this instant family. And so now it's like, instead of stepping on the beach or into my stiletto heels, I'm stepping on Legos at home, which is fine. I loved it, honestly. Like, I loved every part about it. Like, I didn't realize how much joy I would get over, like, waking the kids up in the morning and getting them ready for school and dropping them off and packing lunches and snuggling on the couch on Friday nights, watching movies and eating Popcor and, you know, pretty pretty quick. They took to me very fast. I think it was the stability, the consistency that they were experiencing on that side. You know, they had that at their mom's, but they never really had that since their divorce. And so it was the consistency, the stability, the routine, the someone showing up for them, you know, being there for them.
- [15:35]
A
That family dynamic, too. I feel like.
- [15:38]
B
Yeah, I think they were craving that.
- [15:39]
A
Yeah.
- [15:40]
B
And so they. Yeah, they really took to me. We just loved each other. And so. So we met in, like, August. And then so fast forward to, you know, we spend the holidays together, and, you know, the kids already, they were like, you know, we play. We were playing, like, the game of life, right? And they were like, oh, look, it's dad and Ginny and us and will there be another baby?
- [16:05]
A
Right.
- [16:05]
B
Like, they're. They're thinking of, like, this as a family as well. And they, you know, call. They called me. They called me B Mama. Like, bonus mama still today, which is so fun. I actually wish I would have come up with a more clever name, because, you know, they wanted to start having a special name for me pretty early. And he. Chad, was like, it can just be Ginny, you know, kind of thing, which was fine. And I was fine with that, too. But I read Chelsea Handler's most recent book, not that Long Ago, and she dated a guy with kids, and she's still in their lives, which I thought was super cool, but because the. The dad was never around, but they've always called him dad. They called her father, which I thought was hilarious. Genius. I was like, oh, my gosh. That's right. That's amazing. But they call me B Mama. And they just were very comfortable at my house. So I converted my downstairs bedroom into a bedroom for them. So that was around Valentine's Day. So we're whatever, six, eight months in now.
- [17:12]
A
Yeah.
- [17:13]
B
And the right before that, I was coming home from a work trip. Actually let me go back a little bit further. So in the first few months, there was a time where I had. I was at his apartment, and I was getting ready to leave or whatever, and I don't know if I was. I was looking for, like, a phone charger or chapstick or something. So I opened the bedside table on my side of the bed, and it was filled with sex toys.
- [17:44]
A
Huh.
- [17:45]
B
And, like, duplicates of several things. And that in itself, I don't think is bizarre. Right? Like, do. Like, do you boo? Like, I don't care what people want to do in their bedroom.
- [18:02]
A
Right?
- [18:02]
B
Like, whatever you're into. What was bizarre is we'd been dating for a few months at this point, and he never brought anything like that up to me. And I found that really odd.
- [18:12]
A
Right?
- [18:12]
B
And so I asked him about it. At that same time, I started having, like, pain and discomfort. Not like a UTI or anything like that. So I went to the doctor because I was like, something's wrong. Like, did I get something? And I went and, like, I remember just, like, crying. Like, the pa. He was so sweet. And he was like, we're just going to test you for everything. Like, I'm going to give you a pregnancy test. Like, is it possible you're pregnant? And I was like, yeah, it's possible. I mean, but, you know, I didn't think I could be. However, he was like, I can't. Like, you have nothing. And I had texted Chad. I was like, can you please just, like, go get tested for everything? And he was like, yeah, I did. I was like, well, can I see your test results? He's like, oh, they were all negative. Never sent me any test results. No. You know what I mean? Like, I had a whole rundown of everything showing. Like, you know what I mean? So I just thought that was odd as well. And I just was so, like, confused. I was like, what is going on with my body? Like, is my body betraying me? Like, what is happening? And so, you know, we continue on and get through the holidays. Everything is great, right? Like, we spend our first holidays together. The kids love it. You know, we open gifts, have a. Have a great time. And then Chad and I went to Palm Springs. I think I went early, and then he came and met me, I think, on Christmas Day. And he didn't feel well the whole time and had to, like, basically where we stayed, we had, like, our own little casita, and he basically stayed out there the entire time. And in hindsight, I think he was coming down from drugs. This is something I learned later.
- [20:01]
A
Okay.
- [20:04]
B
So he. Because he wasn't throwing up. He didn't have a fever, but he needed it to be dark and he needed to be alone.
- [20:12]
A
Okay.
- [20:13]
B
It was just very interesting.
- [20:14]
A
Right.
- [20:15]
B
And I just. I at the time, thought he was sick. And oftentimes, like, I would be traveling and he would cancel on his clients because he was sick. And I'm like, man, for being a personal trainer and in the wellness industry, he sure gets sick a lot.
- [20:29]
A
Right.
- [20:31]
B
But that was always the excuse that he would have to use because I became friends with all of his clients. I worked out with them, we hung out. Like, we became friends. And so there was one time where I was on a. Every year for my company, we would have, like, a national sales meeting, and I was in Dallas, and he was actually supposed to watch my dogs. And I ended up finding other arrangements, and he kept on saying how sick he was, and, oh, he just couldn't get out of bed, he was so sick. Well, he was actually in Chicago with another woman, I learned years later.
- [21:05]
A
Jesus. Yeah.
- [21:08]
B
So that's January, February. I have one rule devoram about travel. I don't run in airports. Okay.
- [21:21]
A
Right.
- [21:21]
B
And I'm traveling home from a work trip. And I was. He supposedly had a work trip about an hour drive away from his place, and. And so I was coming home to stay with the kids at his place, so my dogs were at his apartment. And then I was flying home, and I had a connection in Atlanta, and, like, my flight was delayed, and I am running like that. That was my exception. I will run for those kids. Right? So I'm like, I'm running in my high heels and my skirt to get. To get my connection so I can get home. I'm literally ordering, like, doordash to be delivered so that the. You know, so that the kids eat. And I get there, and he, like, runs out the door. And I learned later that he has somebody in that town that. Where he was going to for his work trip. And here I am, like, racing home to care for his kids so he can Go be, you know, doing whatever.
- [22:19]
A
With another woman.
- [22:20]
B
With another woman.
- [22:21]
A
Yeah.
- [22:22]
B
And that night, I put the kids to bed. We had a lovely evening. Oh, they were just so sweet. And I'm getting ready for bed, washing my face in the bathroom, and I went to go throw something away, like whatever, a Kleenex or a Q tip. And in the garbage, I see lingerie tags that are not mine. And I pick them up and, like, the. The size was, I think, like a 36B. Nowhere close to the size I wear.
- [22:56]
A
Yeah.
- [22:57]
B
And so I pull them out and I take a picture. And then I just, like, adrenaline. Like, adrenaline is just coursing through my body. I'm shaking. I go through every single cabinet, every single space in his place. Because there had also been a time where I came home from a work trip, and there were. There was an empty bottle of Prosecco and, like, two champagne glasses. And we would drink, you know, like, we would most nights share, like, a bottle of wine or Prosecco or whatever. And I saw that there was lipstick on one of them, and I was like, oh, maybe this is from before I was gone. Right. Like, sometimes the stories we tell ourselves so that we don't believe that somebody is an absolute piece of garbage, Right? Yeah. And he always would use the same scapegoat friend of his. Oh, I'm with him. You know, we're having lunch, whatever. And, you know, I'm sure hardly any of that, you know, those stories were true. So I start just going through everything, and then that night, I, you know, looking under the bed, there was, like, restraints that he had under the bed, like, attached to the bed again. Now we're like eight, nine months in and never has brought anything like that up to me. Right. For our sex life. Weird, right? So bizarre. So I wait until. Or maybe it was the middle of the night where I texted it to him, and I texted him a picture of the lingerie tags and was like, I don't know whose these are, but they're not mine. I obviously am not going to leave your children, but I will get them to school in the morning. And then I'm gone. Like, you're never seeing me again. And he came back, and, you know, he ended up coming over that night to my house because he just wanted to talk. And it was just like, alligator tears and crying and telling me, like, just the gaslighting and the deflection, like, never addressed that actual situation. But then it became about how his dad abandoned him when he was 4. And, look, no child should be abandoned, but it's like, what does that have anything to do with.
- [25:12]
A
People use trauma, an excuse that, you know, it's like they'll use whatever they can. And I'm a huge believer in, you know, you can definitely have trauma. I think everybody has some sort of trauma. But to use that to your advantage in a situation like that. Absolutely not. There's no excuse to treat somebody else, like. Because you were treated like, yeah, it's
- [25:33]
B
absolutely disgusting, horrible, and disturbing. Right. That somebody would. Would do.
- [25:38]
A
Yeah.
- [25:39]
B
And in the meantime, like, we had been moving things forward. Right. Like, I had on order beds, mattresses, furniture, bedding for these kids to have a bedroom at my house. And of course, they already had a guest room, but one of their own, and for them to each have their own beds and. Cause the bedroom. The room is like a very long bedroom. So it was, like, enough for two beds two nights. So they shared a room. But it was huge. It was awesome. Like, they loved it. So we surprised them with that. Because I. You know, and I think in my head, I was like, okay. I think I still. I just. I didn't want these little signs and indicators that kept coming across my radar to be true. So it's like, even when I was like, nope, I'm gone. Like, lingerie tags. That's enough evidence for me, because I'm not an emotional decision maker.
- [26:31]
A
Yeah.
- [26:31]
B
I'm really more of, like, I need evidence and facts. And it's like, okay, well, that was pretty clearly evident. Right.
- [26:38]
A
So did he admit that he was cheating?
- [26:40]
B
Nope. Nope. He said it was. You know, he must have emptied out one of his. The bag that he was using, his overnight bag from a long time ago, and he just. He emptied it out, and it must have been in there.
- [26:55]
A
Okay.
- [26:55]
B
Mm. And that was the same thing, too, with, like, the sex toys. When I opened the drawer and I asked him about it, and I just said, I just think it's really weird that you haven't brought any of this up with me. And he was like, oh, I'm sorry if that made you uncomfortable. I'll throw them all away and we can start over. And they're mostly from, you know, with my ex girlfriend. And I was like, oh, did she need two butt plugs?
- [27:23]
A
I can't. So did he end up keeping that stuff or throwing it?
- [27:28]
B
He threw it away. Yeah, threw it away. But then, same thing.
- [27:32]
A
Never tried to, like, very, like, introduce any of that.
- [27:35]
B
Very vanilla with me. Very vanilla.
- [27:39]
A
Did you ever say anything about the stuff under the bed, the restraints?
- [27:44]
B
I don't Think so. I think. I don't believe I did. Honestly, I.
- [27:50]
A
It's so odd. It's like, who are you? Yeah.
- [27:53]
B
So very vanilla with me. We had a very active sex life, which is interesting in comparison to some of his other. I call them his other public relationship. He's only had a few.
- [28:02]
A
That's what I was going to ask you. Were. Were you guys public, your relationship?
- [28:06]
B
Yeah, he moved in with me. Okay.
- [28:08]
A
So people knew.
- [28:09]
B
Everyone knew, like, we were.
- [28:11]
A
And he never, like, tiptoed around it? Didn't try to hide anything?
- [28:15]
B
No. Like, he called me his girlfriend, like, to all of his clients.
- [28:19]
A
Got it very fast.
- [28:20]
B
Like, I was like, well, we haven't even had that conversation. Right. Kind of thing. But then, you know, then it just kind of naturally fell into that.
- [28:29]
A
Okay.
- [28:29]
B
So. Yeah, no, like, I was. I was. I met all of his, like, clients. I. His family. I, you know, like, very integrated, like his kids. Right. Very quick.
- [28:39]
A
And still, up to this point, like, eight, nine months in, you have not met or spoken to the child's mom?
- [28:45]
B
No, I had. I hadn't met her at, like, school, pickup or drop off, but like. Yeah, like a couple months in.
- [28:51]
A
Okay. How was she towards you?
- [28:53]
B
Very nice.
- [28:54]
A
Okay.
- [28:54]
B
Very kind, very lovely.
- [28:56]
A
Did he ever tell you how long they were together?
- [28:59]
B
They were together, I mean, over a decade.
- [29:01]
A
Oh, so while. Okay.
- [29:03]
B
Yeah. So they had dated in college. I think they met or like right after college. Like, and then got married pretty young, you know, had their first kid and then the second, and then. Yeah. So I think they were together maybe even married for 10 years.
- [29:21]
A
Okay.
- [29:22]
B
Yeah. So together over a decade.
- [29:24]
A
Okay. Right. And honestly, from the outside looking in seems normal.
- [29:27]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And he always would say things like. He would never say anything bad about her, which was so interesting.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah.
- [29:35]
B
But all of his other exes were crazy.
- [29:37]
A
Okay.
- [29:38]
B
Except for her. And it's like, I wonder if that's because she is always going to be in the picture.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah.
- [29:48]
B
Type of situation. But even when we were at that cabin before we started dating, we were just, like, having conversations and, you know, getting to know people. Right. Like, asking stupid questions. And he was like, what's your favorite candy? And I was like, Sour Patch Kids. And he was like, oh, my God, that's mine too. We're totally getting married. You know, And I'm sure part of it was, like, to be funny, but, like, that's not a normal thing to say. Like, you don't get married over, like, in the same kind of candy.
- [30:16]
A
Right.
- [30:16]
B
Like, just very, very bizarre. So we make the bedroom for the kids. That's how we spent Valentine's Day together. We get all the, you know, the bed set up and the bedding, and then the next night, I think, was our night. And so they came and surprised them, and. Oh, my gosh, they were just, like, overjoyed. Like, they were just like, are you kidding? This is for us. This is our room. And, like, that. That was such a joyous, you know, night. Even though we hadn't talked about moving in together, I just really. They were spending so much time there. I just wanted them to be comfortable and happy and, you know, like, that's an easy fix if things didn't work out or whatnot. Even though everything was moving in the direction of continuing moving forward. So we go. We go on vacation to. He takes me to Las Vegas for my birthday, which is in March. You know, we're doing everything together. We spend all, like. You know, even though I'm traveling a lot, all of the time when I am home, we're spending it together.
- [31:23]
A
And when you're traveling, you guys are still talking all the time.
- [31:26]
B
All the time. Okay. Constantly. Unless he was sick.
- [31:32]
A
Okay.
- [31:33]
B
Mm. So we. The next month, it was, like, shortly after my birthday, I think it was, like, in April. His lease was up, and so he broached the subject of moving in together. And it was basically, like, insinuated or stated in some way that he would just move in with me. And I had just bought that house. You know, like, makes the most sense.
- [32:01]
A
Yeah.
- [32:01]
B
Like, a year prior to that, so it made the most sense. I loved it. It was great. Again, kids bedroom there. Like, they're comfortable there. It was perfect for a family of four and, you know, everything like that. So they end up moving in. So we're continuing the relationship. They move in fully. You know, we get his apartment all cleaned out, and again, things just are continuing to move. We have, like, a little housewarming party for all his friends that hadn't been there yet, some of his clients, so they could kind of see where he had moved. And then over the summer, you know, after they move in, a few really weird things happened.
- [32:45]
A
Okay.
- [32:45]
B
Like, again, just me having some of these weird, intuitive things. So I was on a trip in Detroit where at the time, one of my best friends, actually, my friend that was with us the day that we met, and she was a big fan. Like, she loved this relationship. She loved seeing me kind of have this family unit and everything, and big fan from day one. And she loved that. Well, I'm kind of Responsible, because I was there on the first day and I was telling you that he was flirting with you and everything. So. So I was on a trip with her, and I had asked him to write me a workout program. I was like, can you just write me a workout so that I can go work out in the gym that morning and, you know, before I go to work and go see my friend? So he hadn't sent it. Hadn't sent it the next morning. He hadn't sent it. And I was like, well, that's weird. And then also, I wasn't getting any, like, notifications of doors opening or any movement at home from the security system, which I had. And at that point, we had lost my dog Sadie. She got cancer and. And she passed away. So she was already gone. But they were old. Like, Sadie was 13 and a half, and then Emilio was 16 and a half when he passed away. So he was an older dog. He was deaf. He, you know, like, had mobility issues and whatever. So he was supposed to be caring for my dogs when I was traveling. Right. Because we were a family. We were a partnership. Like, he was living in my house, and so when I was gone, he was to be taking care of my dogs or dog at that time, not abandoning and neglecting them, which I think there's a special place for people that can abuse and neglect animals.
- [34:38]
A
Yeah.
- [34:39]
B
And so you knew he wasn't there
- [34:41]
A
because there was no movement and stuff. Okay. And he wasn't sending you the workout plan.
- [34:46]
B
Correct.
- [34:46]
A
Okay.
- [34:47]
B
Is because he was busy.
- [34:48]
A
Right.
- [34:50]
B
So I get home and I asked him about it. He picked me up at, like. I had a really early flight, so I think I got home at like, 7 in the morning. I think I had like a 6am flight, like, something silly. So I think I got home at like, 7 in the morning, and he picked me up and he had coffees in the car, and, God, he looked so tired, just exhausted.
- [35:12]
A
Right.
- [35:12]
B
And I was like, are you okay? And he was like, yeah, fine. You know, like, I just. I had to go train clients this morning. So I was up real, you know, up, up early, like, my usual yada, yada. I was like, okay. So I asked him about the security system. And I was like, well, the security system shows that there was no activity. He's like, well, I can't be blamed if technology is not working.
- [35:34]
A
And how long was there no activity?
- [35:35]
B
For over 24 hours.
- [35:38]
A
Okay.
- [35:38]
B
Yeah.
- [35:39]
A
And your dog was just left there.
- [35:40]
B
Correct. I knew that would get under your skin.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah.
- [35:47]
B
So after that, we're Continuing on. And then, like, weird things, like on his again. And then it was his birthday again. And I had just like, another weird gut feeling that something was going on, you know, here I threw him, like, this really nice party. We joined a country club. Like, just a social membership because they had a pool and stuff, so that was great for the kids in the summer. It was just right up the road. So, like, I'm doing all these family things, right? Like, we've got the. The social country club membership. We can go up there for dinner, go to the pool, or, you know, whatnot. And so that was where I threw his birthday party the next year. And something just felt off. Like, I think I saw, like, a text notification, which this is another thing he never had text notifications on. So you know how, like, normal people, right, when. When someone texts you, like, pops up, it pops up on your phone. He never had that, which I thought was weird, but I had his password, so it was never like. So there was things like that where it's like, well, I have his password to his phone. There can't really be any secrets, right? Like, open book. So we have the party. I had this, like, weird feeling. And he stepped outside when we got home to let Emilio out. And I could see he was on his phone. And I just opened the door and I could see he had, like. In the reflection, I could see I had, like, a big smile on his face. And I opened the door and he, like, quick, put his phone away. And I was like, oh. He's like, oh, just I'm getting birthday messages. Really? At, like, 10 o' clock at night? Yeah. Okay. And so one of the things I had started doing after I found the lingerie, because that night, what I also found was Viagra pills. So back, way back, Right. Like, almost a year prior to that. And I was like, that's interesting. They were in someone else's name. Like, like a very unique name.
- [37:44]
A
Yeah.
- [37:44]
B
Not even close to his. And I was like, okay, well, that's interesting. And I started counting them again. Interesting that that's not something that you would talk to your partner about.
- [37:57]
A
Absolutely.
- [37:59]
B
And so I started counting them, which when you start behaving outside of your own character and doing things that aren't normal for you, that should also be a really clear indicator and sign. Like, that's not something that I would typically do. Like, if you're in a trusting relationship, that's certainly not something that you would do.
- [38:17]
A
But in those moments that, like, you don't think about it like that, it's like, looking back, you can be like, I can't believe I did that, or I can't believe I felt like I got to that point where I had to count the pills. But I think it's almost like you've mentioned, it's trying to convince yourself that there's nothing going on. There's always, like, a reason.
- [38:37]
B
And I think for me, it wasn't that I was trying to catch him cheating.
- [38:40]
A
Right.
- [38:41]
B
It was that I was trying to find security in the fact that he wasn't.
- [38:44]
A
Exactly.
- [38:45]
B
And that's why I was counting the pills.
- [38:47]
A
Right. Trying to prove to yourself like, no, nothing is happening. Like, it's okay. Yeah.
- [38:52]
B
But little did I know, he had little foil packets of them everywhere. Like, in his bag, in his car, in his pant pocket half the time. Like, I mean, he just had them everywhere.
- [39:01]
A
So why did he have erectile dysfunction? Well. Or was he just always needing to be hard for other women?
- [39:07]
B
Yeah, I think the amount of people notice. I say people. The amount of people that he was interacting with and the frequency, I think is outside of the.
- [39:20]
A
So you're saying people because it was men and women.
- [39:22]
B
Who knows? I've been informed that he's in swingers clubs. One of his public girl, his only public girlfriend before me, she told me she's like, I think he's bisexual.
- [39:36]
A
See, it's scary too, because besides all of the relationship aspect and the pain and the hurt, it's dangerous.
- [39:44]
B
Yeah. And I, again, I don't condemn anyone's life choices unless they know about it. If they know about it. Yeah. Unless you are putting someone else. And that's why people are like, well, did he ever put you in physical harm? And I'm like, the negligence of what he was participating in. Absolutely. Thinking I'm in a monogamous relationship. Yes, he did put my.
- [40:08]
A
Could have gotten horrible things.
- [40:10]
B
Yes, he could have put my. He was putting my health at risk. And to me, that is a form of physical abuse.
- [40:16]
A
Absolutely. It's disgusting. It's fucked up. Yeah.
- [40:19]
B
It's really fucked up. So he, you know, so I'm counting the pills, and, you know, we. I. I know. And this. This is gonna sound so bad, but I just. Again, I knew in my gut on his birthday night, just. I was like, something didn't sit right with me, so I withheld sex. Okay. And he was like, what's wrong? And I was like, yeah, I'm just really tired.
- [40:45]
A
Yeah.
- [40:46]
B
And just wanted to go to bed. But then the next morning, I noticed he had taken A pill. And now in hindsight, that just gives me so much satisfaction. Yeah. That he wasted one right on his birthday because he probably felt entitled, you know, like he was gonna get laid and just didn't. Didn't happen. Sorry, buddy.
- [41:04]
A
Yeah. I mean, but also so many women can relate to that. I mean, not even. I mean, whether it's you're in a argument with somebody, you know, a partner, or they say something that pisses you off, of course you're not going to be in that mindset to give yourself to them in that state.
- [41:20]
B
Yeah.
- [41:21]
A
You know, like, because at that point you're forcing yourself to do something purely for their benefit. Not for years. Right.
- [41:26]
B
Yeah. If you're not, if you're not into it, you're not feeling it. And I certainly wasn't. So we were leaving literally like a couple days later. We'd been planning this trip for, I don't know, six months to go to Italy. And the day of, he had a work conference. So he's a personal trainer. And then he had this job, job on the side for a nutrition company. And his account that he worked on was the chiropractor school. So this chiropractor school, a lot of the chiropractors would carry these supplements and these like greens powders and stuff in their practices. So he always would go and give these presentations or host these events at the chiropractor school in Minnesota, which is a really well respected chiropractic school. And I'm not sure where along the line. It was definitely before I came along where he started. And so I know a lot of what we've been talking about so far is the cheating, but he is a. When I. And I teed up that he was basically living a double life, like he's a complete fraud on every level.
- [42:39]
A
Okay.
- [42:40]
B
So when, like financially, I mean, the amount of money that this person, that this guy owes people, it would blow your mind. I mean, just not paying people for things, screwing people over left and right. He says he's a millionaire and I have receipts for everything. Anything I talk about, I have receipts for the screenshots that people love to send me and share with me about his behavior. Still today, just last week, I got reached out to by another woman who had just gone out on a few dates with him. And she was like, I've never looked anyone up before. Something didn't sit right. And then I got this information. I saw your book, I Always Believe Women. I bought your book just to support you and I want to thank you for sharing your story and being so inspiring. It's like, okay. Every time we save one. Okay, good. Saved another one. So he would teach at these chiropractic schools, and at some point along the way, he must have thought, oh, well, they can do it, so can I. And began performing medical procedures and chiropractic adjustments on people. And he has harmed people severely by doing this. He has a buddy that's a college soccer coach, and he will send his college students to him to get adjustments. He is not a doctor. Not only is it incredibly dangerous, it's illegal. And the fact that people like that, that guy would send, like, could you imagine having a college student knowing that they're being sent to someone to have medical procedures, chiropractic adjustments. That's not a doctor. It's horrific. Yeah. So, you know, he's doing that and you know, so. So that's his job. But he's pretending to be a doctor.
- [44:36]
A
Right.
- [44:37]
B
He claims to be a millionaire, like on some of his dating profiles. So I later found out that he was on like, these websites called Seeking arrangements on these fetish websites, all while he's living in my house and meeting up with people in these different environments. And on some of those, he would say that he has a graduate degree. That he doesn't. He says he's 5 11. Not even close. 59 on a good day. You know, but just things like that people think are nominal or just like, not a big deal to lie about. But if you're willing to lie about how tall you are.
- [45:12]
A
Right.
- [45:12]
B
Like, what else are you willing to lie about? Like, something that's very clearly. Like, I can see. Yeah. That you're not 5 11. Something that can easily be disproved. And I know women that went out with him that are like, dude, you have on your dating profile, you're 5 11. You're not.
- [45:25]
A
Yeah.
- [45:26]
B
Like, it would clearly call him out.
- [45:28]
A
Right.
- [45:30]
B
So we are so this nutrition company. The day we're leaving for Italy, he has a work conference and he tells me, texts me, and he's like, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that my ex girlfriend is here. You have nothing to worry about. But I just wanted to be transparent. And that made my blood boil because he could have just not if it really was a non issue. Nothing should have been said if it was really a non issue. And her and I actually connected later on after we split up and I had asked her about it and she was like, yeah, I saw him that day. But like, no, nothing happened because I was not interested.
- [46:17]
A
Yeah.
- [46:18]
B
But I couldn't. But the odd thing is, is I don't think she was the problem. I think somebody else was because couldn't get a hold of him all day. And I was like, here I'm supposed to be like, literally going on this trip with him tonight. And I'm calling my friend, the one that was with me the day of, and she was like, I don't know. I just think you're overreacting. Like, if he said it's not an issue. And I'm like, but why bring it up if it's not an issue? Like, clearly he has an issue with it, right? Or there's some sort of an issue. And I don't know exactly what happened that day, but my gut tells me something. So anyway, we go to Italy and we have mostly a great time. I mean, we did. We had actually a great time, but we get back, so this is October, so we're, you know, we're approaching, you know, we were together, I think like a total of like 15, 16 months. So just shy of a year and a half, which is long enough. Right. But not, you know, it's not years. Yeah, but I think too.
- [47:16]
A
I never think. I mean, there could be people that are together for 10, 15 years and have no closeness and, you know, no connection. So I. I don't think time always matters. I think the fact that it did feel like everything was moving so quickly. There were kids involved, which I think makes it a lot more emotional. There were so many things tied in. You know, I don't think it doesn't matter if it was six months or 20 years.
- [47:39]
B
Yeah. I just, I know sometimes people have different opinions on that. Right. And I. And that's okay. And that's fine. And I know oftentimes, like my friends who are divorced with kids who are starting dating again, they ask, ask me all the time. They're like, how long should I wait to introduce my kids? And I'm like, that's a very personal decision. Talk to the person you're dating about it. Set some sort of a guideline that makes you both feel comfortable. And usually I think for most people it's like that five, six month range, right? Like where you do feel like things are continuing forward, where, you know, where it feels comfortable.
- [48:14]
A
Right.
- [48:14]
B
For you, for the kids, for, you know, the other parents that you're co parenting with. Right. Like, there's a lot of dynamics. So we go to Italy, have a great time. Nothing seemed really off at that, at that point, the Only thing on that trip that I remember was we were laying in bed and his ex wife was texting him because he was like 10 days late for paying spousal support and child support. And so I just, I remember him doing that and like going back and forth with her about like he couldn't pay the whole amount, but he could pay this amount and whatever, which was so interesting to me. And then we get back and I immediately have a work trip like one or two days later. And this is when I went to Florida, which was one of the dates when my friend sat me down at happy hour in the middle of the night to give me all this information was like, can you just double check, check the dates When I was on that work trip, I, it was a Thursday night or a Friday night and I remember like exactly where I was. I was sitting on the edge of the bed and I was texting with him and I had this weird bump forming on my face. And I worked in medical aesthetics, you know, around dermatologists, plastic surgeons and, and everything. And we had a conference the next morning or like a seminar that I was co hosting. And I asked one of the people, I was like, what, what is this? And they were like, it looks like a spider bite. And I was like, okay, interesting. I was like, it kind of hurts and it was growing bigger. And I was like, okay, but if it was a spider bite, it's been here for like a couple days now. Don't you think it would be getting better, not worse? They're like, yeah, keep an eye on it. Like we can prescribe you a steroid if, if you need it, whatever. And that night I'm sitting on my bed, on my bed in the hotel and I'm texting with him and it's like 7:30 at home and he's like, oh man, I just, I really don't feel well. Like. And it was our night with the kids and he was like, I just, I don't feel well. Like I just can't even be a dad tonight. So he went and dumped his kids off at his ex wife's sister's who had five little kids at the time and, or maybe even six, I can't remember, I can never remember. I think six. I think she had just had the baby, like has an infant, these five kids because the, the kid's mom was working that night or like had had a conference or something so she wasn't available. So he dumps them off. And I thought at the time, I was like, oh no, that's weird. And I remember feeling like this wave came crashing over me. Like just this really weird sensation that something wasn't right. So I get home the next day and I had noticed that I was gone for two nights and looked in his bedside drawer and when I left there were two Viagra pills in a little packet. And when I came home, there were zero. And then I went out in his car and I opened up the trunk and he had an overnight bag in there. So I went to the grocery store because, you know, I was not only paying all the bills, I made sure the lawn was mowed and the house was cleaned and I did all the grocery shopping and all the laundry and all the cooking and the school pickups and drop offs and soccer games and, you know, made sure everything was, you know, functioning on top of traveling, like I'm maintaining the household, maintaining my furniture, friendships, maintaining a, you know, workout routine, all of this stuff. And so I go to the grocery store and I called my friend that was with me the day that we met. And I'll never forget it, her dad was really unwell at the time and I, I called her and I was sobbing hysterical, like, hysterical in the back of this grocery store parking lot. And she was like, I can't, like incomprehensible, like I'm hyperventilating, which is so unlike me. And she was like, I can't even understand you. I can't hear what you're saying. Like, are you okay? And I was like, I don't know, I don't think so. She's like, hang on, let me finish up my call with my dad. I'm going to call you right back. So she calls me back and I tell her I was like, I feel it in my bones, I know it in my soul. He's cheating on me. And she said he would have to be an absolute psychopath to do that to you and to his children. And she's like, there's no way. There's no way. Just go home and talk to him. So I go home and I talk to him and we're sitting in our bedroom and, you know, I asked him and I asked him about the Viagra pills, which I had never talked to him about all this time. And so I said, well, there's two when I left and now they're gone. And he's like, well, I don't know what to tell you. I didn't take them. I didn't take them. I didn't take them. And he just sits there and continues with that he didn't take them. And he doesn't know, you know, I don't know what could happen. It's like, well, there was two when I was there. And you also have this overnight bag in your car. Like, where are you going with your overnight bag? Well, you know, sometimes I shower at my. At my gym. Sometimes I have an overnight bag in there. Never showered at his gym. Very rarely. And then all of a sudden, I think I pressed enough where a switch flipped. Physically, he changed, and, like, his eyes changed. I only saw this two times with him. It was like I pinned him in a corner enough where he, like, switched into a different person. And, like, the rage and the anger that he had and, like, his eyes turned to stone. It was so scary. He was like. And. And he said, fine. You want to know what happened to him? Yeah, that's why I've been asking you. And he's like, I gave them to my friend. He and his girlfriend went on a trip, and he asked if he could borrow some. So I gave them to him. They were gone for two nights. He wanted two. And I was like, well, it's a little weird that you wouldn't have just given him the foil pack then and that you took them out to give them to him. And also, don't you find it a little peculiar that, as your partner, you've never had this conversation, but you and your buddies talk about your erectile dysfunction medication? And then that was when the manipulation and the gaslighting ensued. Had I known that you had any trust issues in this relationship, I would have never uprooted my children and moved them into your house. Mind you, it was the most stability that they ever had on his side of things. And when he moved out of my house, it was the fifth or sixth place he had lived in five years. So that we had one of the kids that weekend. I don't remember what the circumstances were, but they wanted to go to a movie. And so Chad asked if I wanted to go with. And I was like, no. And I literally just laid and cried in bed because some, like, I knew something was off. Something was so wrong. Meanwhile, this thing on my face is continuing to grow over the weekend. My eye and my forehead, like, the side of my face is completely swollen. My eye is starting to, like. Like, my eyelid. My brow and my eyelid is becoming so heavy. Like, it's starting to, like, close my eye in some capacity. And so he and I went to dinner on Sunday night or Monday night, and we went and saw stars Born I don't know why. I just like, remember these details. And we are at dinner and I was like, I don't know, this can't be a spider bite, right? Like, it's been all these days. Wrong. And so I text a dermatologist friend of mine and I explained to her what's going on. And she was like, you need to come in tomorrow morning. Like, I can see, I can squeeze you in at like 8, 10 tomorrow morning. So I went in, she walked in and she was like, you have shingles on your face. And like, are you under an extreme amount of stress? Because it is not normal to get shingles on your face in your 30s. Meanwhile, I had just had some precancerous skin lesions removed. My hair was all falling out, breaking off and falling out. And then I get shingles on my face in my 30s. And my dermatologist was like, I am so glad you messaged me, because where this is so shingles, it's a virus that flares up. Like, if you ever had chickenpox as a kid, you have the virus in your body. So that's why when people turn 50, there's a shingles vaccine so that you don't get shingles. So people perceive it as a skin condition, but it's actually a virus that attacks your nervous system so it follows your nerves. So I had this lesion and you'll be able to see when we are up close. Like, I have this scar here that will never go away. So it follows your nervous system and the nerves in your face kind of go around your eye, down your nose. I had another one starting on the side of my nose and she was able to inject them with a steroid to get them to go away. And then you go on antivirals and steroids and it's pretty intensive, but she explained that where it was, it can actually cause blindness. So my body was telling me and, like, alerting me that something was very wrong in my life, in my situation that I was in, like, screaming at me, if you will. So I get treated for that. And this is like three days after, you know, I had counted the pills. He gaslights me, tries to make me feel bad about providing stability for his children in a loving, caring home. After I had this feeling of this wave rushing over me, right? Of like, something's wrong again. No motion on the security system at home. So that means Emilio, my 15 and a half year old dog, is being neglected and abused and not taken care of like he's supposed to be. And he's elderly, right? Like, just horrible. But I continue in the relationship. And he was then, like, there would be in those times when I'd have these conversations, then he would be, like, on his best behavior. Right? Like, then it was like the love bombing again. The. The shower in me with affection and attention and maybe take me out to a nice dinner or whatever. And at this point, we had talked about getting married, having a baby, and, like, these are things. And when we talked about having a baby, he kind of was like, yeah, I just. I. I love our. Like, I'm open to it, but I just love our family the way that it is. Can we just table this and talk about it again? Right. And so I was like, okay, well, that's felt like a mature discussion at the time, right? Like, okay. Like, yeah, let's continue on and see how things are going. And we, you know, are continuing on. And then we have plans about a month later to go to my nephew, who is like, my guy. His wedding. He's getting married in Washington state. And we actually. I had asked their. The kid's mom if we could have them because our custody schedule was Thursdays to Sundays. And then we would drop them off at church for them to go with her on Sundays and then pick up again on Thursday. So that was just like our regular routine. But if we were going away from a Thursday to a Sunday, that means I wouldn't see them for two weeks. I'd never not seen them for two weeks. And so I had reached out to her and asked her if we could have them on a Tuesday night. And she, of course, was like, of course, no problem. Like, always so great about that. And so we had them that Tuesday night when I got the text message from my friend, which was unusual, but because we were going to be away that weekend to go to my nephew's wedding. So now we're back at the Tuesday night. The Tuesday night cocktails. And so I go home and I confront him, and I'm like, how do you know this girl? And he's like, well, I dated her briefly before I dated you. And the only thing I did wrong to her was I didn't want to date her anymore, but she's a little crazy. Okay. And then I just start. And we didn't even talk for that long again. Like, it was odd that he was fully clothed. Like, I'm talking, like, pants and, like, you know, like a big shirt. Like, everything was so bizarre. And so we start talking. I'm just asking him questions. And then all finally, same Thing he, like, kind of snaps and like, I don't recognize him. And I'm like, okay, this is a little scary. And he was like, well, do you believe it? I was like, well, I don't want to believe it, but do you believe it? I said, I don't want to believe it, but I just need some answers for some of these things. And he ultimately, after about 40, 45 minutes of talking, he's like, I know this is important, but I need to get some sleep. And went out and slept on the couch. And then he woke the kids up, which just pisses me off. Because the mornings were my favorite. Like, the mornings were mine because he had early morning clients that he did personal training sessions with. And so the mornings were mine. That was, like, my time with them. And that was the whole reason why I wanted them on Tuesday night so I could have Wednesday morning with them. And he shuffled them, woke them up at like 5:15 in the morning, like an unreasonable hour, apparently took them out to breakfast and then dropped them off at school. And then I have no idea where he went all day. Cause he canceled all of his clients. Like, nobody saw him whatever. And at that point, I was like, okay, I've got these pages of evidence of dates that match up to times when I'm out of town. Locations, names of people. This girl that came forward thought that she was in a relationship with him for two and a half years while he's living in my house. I'm parenting his children. And she's not the only one. So the. I was in the notes, there wasn't a specific date except for that, like, October 11th or 12th date when I was. When we had just gotten back from Florida, and I was, you know, got the shingles and everything else. There was a date in that timeframe, remember when my friend was like, are you sure? Are you sure you were home? Like, I just go back and check your dates. And I was like, oh, yeah, No, I was gone that day. And I think that was what made me then start to realize, okay, if that's true, then everything else is true. She didn't give me a specific location of where they had stayed. But. So this. This woman, I don't know, I think she was like, 36, she lived with her mom. So. And then she said that they used to go to his apartment, but he would often get them hotel rooms, especially after he moved in with me, because they clearly couldn't come to my house. Right.
- [64:08]
A
So did you end up reaching out to these women?
- [64:13]
B
So I did not Reach out to her. But my friend that introduced us said on the day that I was. The day that he was coming to pick up his stuff, she was like, look, I know this isn't your day to pay it forward, but you're going to. And I'm telling you like this. So this was. So Tuesday night was when I found out the information. Can we circle back to that? Because we'll get right to that. Because we're, like, in that timeline now. So Wednesday morning. So Tuesday night, I come home, confront him. Wednesday morning, he vanishes, disappears. And I am sitting on the edge of my bed. I have a lot of sitting on the edge of the bed moments. Sitting on the edge of my bed in my bedroom. I didn't sleep a wink. Like, I literally. My adrenaline was pumping on overdrive so hard. Like, I never slept so much. So, like, I don't know if you've ever been in this situation before, but, like, I had to get up and pee like. Like every 10 minutes. Yeah, it felt like. I think I say every six minutes, because it literally felt like that. Like, I was constantly just, like, getting. I. I couldn't sleep. I was just, like, shaking. And I. There was a Crown Plaza hotel referenced in the notes. And so I just. There's three of them in the Twin Cities. And I just picked one. And I called them and I said, I'm Mrs. So and so. And I said, I need a hotel receipt for a night that my husband and I stayed. We were not married, but I was just at that time because I was like, I don't know if they're gonna give me the receipt. So I was just, like, pretending, and I was, like, sitting on the edge of my bed. They're like, okay, hang on one second. We'll be right back. And in that moment, I'm, like, sitting on the edge of my bed going, whatever happens next is going to completely change the trajectory of my life. If they say no, I'm going to call the other chrome plazas. But if they come back and they say yes, that's the evidence that I need. And if one of these things is true, they're all true. So they came back on the line and they said, we have that receipt right here for you. Where do you want us to send it to? And so I had them send it to me, and I screenshot it, and I sent it to him, and I said, here's the receipt. Stay for the crazy girl that you dated before me, but that you were just with a month ago.
- [66:36]
A
Yeah.
- [66:37]
B
And I said, You've got, like, you're out of my house this weekend. Like, don't come back here without permission. And I very much, like, laid the ground rules, and I was like, immediately. I'd been violated in so many ways. Emotionally, psychologically. My physical. Physical space and being had been violated. You know, my trust had been violated. Everything that I believed to be true. And when you. In that moment, I mean, it just shattered me because I felt like my entire life had become a lie. And that's so hard to come to grips with. Not by my own doing, but by someone else doing that to my life.
- [67:19]
A
So.
- [67:20]
B
And actually, there was one other thing that just popped in my mind that I don't think I've ever shared. We were going to a cabin that summer. It was, like, in August. And I was like, oh, it's like, our anniversary. And he had me look up something on his phone. And on his phone, there was a. Like, in, like, Safari or just, like, Google or whatever. Like, in his browser was the Nicollet Island Inn, which is a really charming hotel, like, in Minneapolis on a little island. And I was like, oh, maybe he's planning something for our anniversary. Like, that's so cute. So I, like, kind of got excited and, like, swept it away. Like, I don't want him to know that I know.
- [67:57]
A
Right, right.
- [67:58]
B
And turns out we never went there. Certainly, he probably went there with somebody else because our anniversary came and went. We never went there. You know, nothing ever like, that happened. So anyway, you know, that morning, he's out. I send him the screenshot, the message, and then he asked if he could come by that night and get some things. And I was like. I said, you can come, but you can't come unaccompanied. And here are the three people that I approve for you to show up to my house with. And I wouldn't let him in. And I had neatly arrayed some of his items on the front step. Like, you're in this moment. Like, not some of my proudest moments, but you're in this moment of, like, just stupid things that you can do to, like, make yourself feel a little better. Yeah. You know, like, I emptied out all of his Viagra packs and flushed all the pills down the toilet and put all the empty packs out on the front step with him. And, like, some of his ugliest clothes and put his toothbrush bristles down on the front step. You know, might have scrubbed the. The dirty front steps a little bit with it. Just stupid things. And he, like, just stepped over it and he was pissed that I wouldn't let him in my house.
- [69:11]
A
He came alone?
- [69:12]
B
No, his friend came with. And I said, he can come in, but you can't. And he's like, you want him to pick out my clothes for me? I was like, I'll pick them out. So I packed a bag for him, and his friend was asking me all kinds of questions and was just, like, devastated.
- [69:28]
A
So you don't think his friends knew?
- [69:30]
B
I think his friend. I think complacence in silence is a decision in itself.
- [69:36]
A
Yeah.
- [69:37]
B
Standing for nothing is also standing for something.
- [69:40]
A
Right.
- [69:40]
B
And I was very clear with him because that friend actually asked me to get together afterwards if I was willing to share everything. But they still continued to associate with him.
- [69:49]
A
Right.
- [69:50]
B
And so to me, I think that speaks volumes.
- [69:52]
A
Yeah.
- [69:53]
B
You know? You know, and you have all of this information now because I. I know. You know, because I shared it with you.
- [69:59]
A
Right.
- [69:59]
B
And he still continued to associate with him. And so I think that says a lot about him. Him as a person. But that was the same friend that he would use and say that he was always spending all the time with, which I don't think he was. And I shared that with him. I was like, oh, yeah, you always are together. Grabbing lunch, going to happy hour, hanging out all the time. And he was like, no. So he apparently was fine being the scapegoat.
- [70:27]
A
Yeah.
- [70:28]
B
And so he came, got some things, and then a couple of friends, I just decided I was never letting him back in my space. I was doing Palo Santo in every corner of the house and started packing up his stuff. Like, I just. I needed to reclaim my space. So I had a couple friends help pack everything up, and I told him that he could come get his things that weekend. And he was like, oh, that's not gonna work for me. I need to come tomorrow. Or, like, I think that was Thursday. He was like, I need to come today. And I said, well, I know you don't have any plans this weekend, because we were supposed to be in Washington at my nephew's wedding, which I missed, because I was in no mental or emotional state to go celebrate love at that point. And I needed to, you know, like, deal with this. I needed to figure out what was going on. And I remember that Wednesday night, I called the kid's mom, and, like, she was at happy hour, and she didn't answer. And I called again, and she didn't answer. And then she finally called me back, and she was like, hey, is everything okay? And I was like, have you heard from Chad. And she was like, no, why? And I said, well, I'm kicking him out. And I heard her take the biggest breath and sigh. She was like, I was afraid this would happen. I said, well, you need to know that, you know, like, he's not going to be living here anymore, and so, you know, neither will the kids. And that part was the hardest. Like, that part was the worst part of it. And she literally was like, I just. I'll never forget her saying that I was afraid that this would happen. And I said, did he do this to you? And she was like, oh, yeah. And. And it was in that moment, right? And I was like, did you ever want to tell me? And she was like, yeah, but would have. You believed me, right? Like, I would have been the crazy ex wife that just wanted him back. And because he's so great, right? Like, you've never, you know, you've never had a relationship like this before. He never loved anyone like this before. Like, all of the things that you're told, I've never met anybody like you before, right? Like, all of these. All these statements that. That you're told and kind of this bill of goods you're sold. So I told her, I said, well, I'm going to pack up his stuff and have him out this weekend. So he kept on trying to change the date. So he continued to try to assert control. So finally, at one point, I just said, look, look, you can either make the generous parameters that I've created for you. You can come between the hours of 12 and 4 on Saturday or 12 and 4 on Sunday. If you can't make those work, I will put everything out on the curb and you can pick it up at your convenience. Good for you. Somehow, magically, he made that work, right? But even up until the time. And I. I had a bunch of friends come, and we were having, like, mimosas and whatever. I just didn't want to be alone. I didn't want it to be, like, a weird thing. And even up until the final moment of him coming to pick up his stuff, he was trying to control the situation. He was like, I'm pulling down the street. You can open the garage door now. And I was like, I will open my garage door when I'm good. Like, damn good and ready. And so I walked outside and I addressed his buddy, the people that he had there helping move. And I said, you can. Everything is on the left side of my garage. If there's anything that you have a question about that you should touch or shouldn't you can direct those towards me. And I had. I had parked my car across the street. I actually had a loner because the next morning, after everything happened, when I got the receipt and whatever and told him to move out, I was in such a state of duress and shock that I didn't even know what to do, right? All I could do is kind of look at my schedule and just do the next thing. And it happened to be a nail appointment. So I went and got my nails done. And. And I write about that in the book. And I've had some people leave reviews of, like, oh, my gosh, that's so vain. I can't believe. Like, the next thing she did was went and got her nails done. And it's not because it wasn't like anything out of vanity. It was just that to keep yourself going thing. It's all I could do was just look at my schedule and be like, okay, that's on the schedule. I'll do that. And in hindsight, it was probably a really great thing to have someone holding my hands for 45 minutes or however long the appointment was at the time, while I'm in this state of shock and duress and trauma to have that oxytocin and dopamine hit. And literally someone holding my hands. I'm sure in hindsight, my nail tech was like, what is wrong with her? Like, what is up with her?
- [75:11]
A
Yeah.
- [75:12]
B
And then I went to the. The car dealership because I had an appointment to get my winter tires on. Cause I had, like, performance tires and winter tires on my vehicle that I had at the time. And so I went there, had to drop my car off. I was in such a daze. I actually had left my suitcase from my trip that I had come home from in my car the night before. So the morning of him coming to move, I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't even have any makeup. Like, where's my makeup? And I was like, oh, my gosh, it's at the car dealer's channel. So they weren't done with my car yet. So I had to go to the dealership, get my luggage so I could come home, put my makeup on. And as I'm driving home to get ready for him to come get all of his stuff out of my house, the girl that gave me all the evidence was, like, called me and said, hey. And I'm literally like, actually, I was home already. I was putting my makeup on, and she messaged me and was like, hey, I know it's not your Day to pay it forward. But, oh, my gosh, what did I name her in the book? Crystal. Crystal is gonna come over with her friend to your house and talk to you this morning. She could really use some closure, and so that's what you're gonna do for her today. As my life has just imploded, I'm being told that I should welcome this woman into my house. And I did. And I was, you know, as kind as I could. And I'm glad that I did, because she shared things with me that day. Like when she confronted him about learning that he had a girlfriend that he lived with, he started crying, saying, you can't tell her. Like, you can't tell her. Like, I'm stuck. I'm stuck in this relationship with her for her healthcare because the youngest has a brain tumor.
- [77:03]
A
About his own kid.
- [77:04]
B
About his own kid. They weren't even on my health insurance. It was all a lie. To put out into the universe that your kid has brain cancer is reprehensible. Like, I just. I can't even imagine or fathom coming up with something like that. Yeah, and then he had a friend. We call them the flying monkeys in the world of narcissism. He had a friend, and he was like, no, Crystal, call. Call my friend. And the friend corroborated it and was like, yeah, no, they really do have brain cancer. And it's. It's really scary, but that's why he has to stay with her.
- [77:50]
A
That is crazy.
- [77:52]
B
Yeah. So you. You can't tell her. Like, she can't find out about you. And even up until that point, she wanted to win him. She wanted him to pick her. And then in all of the research, you know, I had found, you know, he had multiple, like, adult chatting apps on. I found his iPad. He had a sex video of him with another woman on his iPad. And part of me, like, yes, that. That's bad. But now I'm a parent, right? Like, I'm not their mom. I never tried to be their mom. She is incredible and wonderful in every way, but you. You become a parent in this situation. I love these kids with my whole heart. I am. Everything I, you know, did for them was all about protecting them. And I'm like, if I could get into it, they can get into it. They're way smarter technologically than I am. And then even just, like, he had, like, you know, a bunch of porn movies and stuff in his Netflix account that the kids use, and on this iPad that the kids use.
- [79:02]
A
Right?
- [79:02]
B
Like, just crazy. And then I Found all of these letters that he had written to women. You know, some were from before me, but some were during the time that we were dating, like, just wild. I have it all printed off and all of it saved somewhere.
- [79:19]
A
How many women do you think he was involved with while in a relationship with you?
- [79:23]
B
Hundreds.
- [79:26]
A
Hundreds.
- [79:27]
B
And I didn't even know any of this when I decided to write my book. So this is. This is the crazy part. About a year after the book comes out, he gets posted in one of those are we dating the same guy? Groups on Facebook. And even right when the book came out, like, weekly, almost daily, I would hear from a new woman, a new woman, a new person. All of these people that had been scammed by him thought they were dating him, thought they were in a relationship with him, saying, oh, my gosh, I dated him. During this time. I had no idea. I met him on a fetish website. I had no idea that he had a girl friend. I had no idea he lived with you. One woman had been dating him on and off. Thought she was in a relationship with him for eight years.
- [80:22]
A
It's crazy.
- [80:23]
B
He. She was the one that really exposed his drug use, which was something that I didn't know about at all. Like, I was completely in the. In the blind on that. And again, if you want to partake in recreational drug use, that's for. That's like. That's your choice. You're an adult. But when you're in a relationship, in a partnership with somebody, like, that shouldn't be, like, everything was so skeezy and sneaky. Yeah. You didn't know anything. I didn't know any of this. But she confirmed, like. And again, I have receipts. I've got screenshots of him, like, you know, cocaine and drugs on his countertop and him texting her, going, oh, I can't wait to snort coke off your ass again tonight. And just. And she told me that the lingerie tags were hers. So eventually I found out who the lingerie tags were from. She also shared with me who the person was that was in Chicago with him, which her and I are actually now very close friends. I actually got a text message from her while we're sitting here, and she explained a lot of things, put together a lot of pieces. People that he went to school with, elementary school, junior high, high school. Like, the amount of people that have reached out to me, and then just, you know, the screenshots of the comments that have been sent. So women started sharing my book in that. And then they would start Reaching out to me, they started sharing the book. That's actually what made my book a number one bestseller.
- [81:57]
A
Wow.
- [81:57]
B
Thanks, ladies.
- [81:58]
A
Right.
- [81:59]
B
You know, like, and then, and then he just, he got posted again, so. And the, the girl that he was dating. I like to give people nicknames, not in a condescending way, but we called her the Toddler because she was literally twice as close to his kids age as to his age. She reached out to me. They were living together at the time when my book came out. And he, you know, it's things that he would tell people, like, and people that, like, people would send me screenshots of the conversations they were having with him. He would be like, oh, yeah, everything's a lie, but I'm not gonna read it. Well, if you're not going to read it, how do you know that everything's a lie?
- [82:37]
A
Right.
- [82:38]
B
And everything's not a lie. Like, I didn't put anything in there that I don't have receipts for. There's more that I didn't put in there. Even stuff that I'm sharing with you today that I never put in the book. Things, a lot of stuff I didn't even know until long after.
- [82:53]
A
Right.
- [82:54]
B
You know, like in the. So I, I got together with Toddler and also it's nice because then I don't have to use her real name. Right. And so I got together with her and her best friend. I sat with her, cried with her, held her hands for three and a half hours, you know, and she asked me questions like she was, you know, do you think he's cheating and. Or do you think he's changed? And I was like, no, you. If you knew the answer to that question, you wouldn't be asking me.
- [83:18]
A
Yeah.
- [83:18]
B
Or like you already know the answer to that question.
- [83:20]
A
So, you know, this isn't just a. Not that there's any type of better type of cheating or that there's any, you know, one's worse than the other, but we're not talking about one slip up here.
- [83:32]
B
No.
- [83:32]
A
You know, we're talking about somebody that's living an entire entirely different life. He's into shit that he never even introduced to you, which is so bizarre. It's almost like he enjoyed being different people, you know, with different people.
- [83:48]
B
Yeah. And I was the perfect host for him because I elevated his life. So I made this, this life that how he wants to portray himself as a great dad and a family man. I did that.
- [84:01]
A
Yeah.
- [84:01]
B
And so then that's what like his clients thought, because that's what they saw. Well, I also feel like you were
- [84:06]
A
a good candidate because you were such an independent, busy woman. So it's almost like you weren't somebody that is home all day, end up super observant and looking over his shoulder all the time. You know, you had your own life. You're. You had your own to do. So obviously you didn't have the time to be double triple checking everything.
- [84:28]
B
He's saying no. And. And I still, I went on vacation. I went on girls trips. And so, like, in addition to traveling for work all the time. Right. Like you said, it was perfect because I wasn't always there. Yeah. Even though when I was traveling, like, the communication was very frequent, very, you know, all the time. But even like. So right when things happened, when everything went down, the kids asked their mom if they could keep a regular custody schedule with me. They're like, well, mom, can we, like still do Mondays at Ginny's? And she's so sweet. She was like, look, I can't change the custody schedule, but you can ask to go spend time with her anytime you want. And if she's available, we'll make it happen. So it might have been. No. It was a few weeks after everything had happened. So they were at my house because I had just gotten Francine, which we should probably unpack. That Francine is my perfect Kevlar King Charles spaniel. My child. And they wanted to meet her. They were so excited. So they came over on a Monday night and they were snuggling with her. They were really struggling with the situation. And one was hanging out downstairs. One was upstairs. I can't remember if it was the younger. I think it was the younger that was hanging out downstairs and was really emotionally struggling with it and was wanting one on one time with me. So I was going back and forth, like spending time with the older one upstairs and then going downstairs and just trying to balance their emotions and what they were feeling. And you know, they were just. They were happy to be there, but it was all still really confusing to them. But it was almost 9 o' clock and the doorbell rang and the oldest yells downstairs and was like, jenny, someone's at the door. And I was like, hang on. So I run upstairs and, you know, I look on the NEST camera and I was like. Or no, I don't even think I had the NEST camera yet. So I opened the door and I was like, can I help you? And he asked for Chad. And I was like, he doesn't live here anymore. Are you his ex? I said, yeah. And I was like, so can we just not do this? His children are here. And so I, like, stepped outside. And I was like, how can I help you? And he's like, well, I'm a process server. I'm here to serve him papers. And I was like, what is this about? And he was like, I don't know. And even if I did, I couldn't tell you. We still to this day have no idea what that was about. But also, when I sat down with Toddler, again, I don't say that in a disparaging way, right? Like, it was just intended to be a clever, cute nickname as a way to identify her and not use her name. So she asked me questions. She's like, do you think he pays his taxes? And I was like, again, you probably already know the answer to that question if you're asking me. And I said, well, why do you ask? And she's like, well, because there's just stacks of letters from the irs. And so how many letters have you received from the irs? Right? Like, just using, you know, deductive thinking. And she told me about a story one time when she suspected he was cheating and he had plans with a client, and she went out to dinner with a girlfriend, and that client walked into the restaurant without him.
- [87:48]
A
Right.
- [87:48]
B
You know, so she laid everything out. And I. Because, again, even after all that, I still wanted to see the good in people. I, you know, shared a lot of things with her that I hadn't shared, you know, shared publicly just to try to help her. And she went back to him that weekend. Actually, her family moved her out. Like, her family started reaching out to me, going, oh, my gosh, thank you for saving her. Like, we are so grateful. Like, we're indebted to you forever. Yada, yada, yada. Well, she got back together with him, shared things confidentially that I had shared with her, and then it all got twisted. Tried to turn the kids against me, because meanwhile, the kids actually didn't talk to him for almost a year. Didn't see him, didn't talk to him, because they started to figure things out, right? I continue to show up. So. So this all happened in November when we split up, and we had just gotten back. I had a work thing in Chicago, and we made a trip out of it. We went to see Hamilton and, you know, whatever. And he kept on pressing that he wanted to get a puppy after Sadie had died. And I was like, I just. I think I want to wait. Like, after Emilio goes, like, I just. I've had dogs and this responsibility my entire adult life. Like I'm gonna think I just want to break, like have the flexibility of not having to get, you know, dog care when I'm traveling and all of that. So he kind of broke me down and we. I got a rough referral from my vet for these Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. This lady that she shows them, she doesn't really. She's not like a breeder breeder. She just does like one litter a year because she shows them. But then if she has any leftover, she will sell them. So we had a long phone conversation. She like does this huge vetting process. So we had like a 45 minute conversation from Chicago with her about like what our family looks like and you know, how old the kids are and what our day to day look looks like and how, you know. So then she kind of fits the personality of the puppy and nothing was available. So we were just going to get on a waiting list. So we had an appointment for Thanksgiving weekend and we had split up in the meantime. But I still went. So I go and you know, I meet the lady and she kind of looks out the door. She's like, just you? I was like, yep, just me.
- [90:11]
A
Things have changed.
- [90:12]
B
Yeah. And so I just didn't even really address it. And she was like, okay. And so I just was going to put my deposit down and she had 14 dogs. So she has eight adult show dogs including the mom that had just had 10 day old babies. So there's these three little tiny 10 day old babies. And she was like, those are all taken. And then she had three five month old puppies that she was keeping. There were three sisters, Quinn, Gabriella, and her name was Elizabeth at the time. And I was going to get a tricolor for sure. I thought I was going to get a tricolor or a Blenheim or then a Black and Tan or then a Ruby. And so there was two Blenheims and one Ruby that was Elizabeth. And Elizabeth was the runt, like tiny compared to her sisters. And the sisters kept on like bullying her and she kept running to me to like be saved, like kept jumping up on me and jumping up on like trying to get to me. And she, the breeder had kind of mentioned like very quickly in passing, but I picked up on it. She said I might not be able to show her or keep her as a show dog because she has a slight underbite. Sometimes it corrects itself at about six months, but if it doesn't, I might not be able to show her I could not stop thinking about her. Like, please keep the underbite, please. And I. That day, I also had my first sit down with the kids and their mom. Their mom had invited me over, and she was like, they're really struggling. Like, they're really having a hard time. And her and I had sat down and had hours already of conversations. And honestly, I think it was super validating for her. I think even up until that point, she thought something was wrong with her.
- [92:02]
A
Right. Right. And, well, it's easy to think, why did this happen to me? Yeah. Or what was wrong with me? I think that's where sometimes our. Our mind likes to go.
- [92:11]
B
And over time, it has been so fun to see her get her swagger back and how she navigates the situation. And just the amazing mom she is, determined to not have these kids turn out anything like that guy. Anything like that guy. And so we sat down, and on my drive over there, I called the breeder, and I was like, hey, I can't stop thinking about her. I think she needs me, and I need her. And I really do think. And I immediately changed her name to Francine. And it's so fitting. And I really think we saved each other.
- [92:48]
A
I love it.
- [92:49]
B
Like, it was one of the best things. And so, yeah, so she. She came home with me the next week, and. But on my drive over there, I called and she was like, I'll have to think about it. You know, it's going to take me about a week or two to figure this out if I can make it happen or not. I'll be in touch. So I think she called me, like, a week later and said, yes, I love it. So I sit down. I sit down with the kids and their mom, and I'm sobbing. Like, I mean, I'm shattered. I'm still heartbroken at this point. And they're confused. They're like, we don't understand. Like, and her and I, their mom, we kind of made a pact, like, we'll never speak badly about him to them. They have to figure this out on their own. All we can do. Because then that just makes you look bad. Right? And especially with what a manipulator he is. He would twist it and turn it and, you know, then make us look like the bad guys. So we kind of just always had that agreement, understanding. And I'm literally sitting there crying. She's crying, and I'm like, look, you guys, I made this commitment. Like, I made a commitment to you when I committed to this relationship. And that Meant thinking that I would be there at your high school graduations and at your weddings makes me emotional now. And she looked across the living room at me, and she goes, you still will be. And that's one of the beautiful parts about this, is we are still in each other's lives. Like, we call ourselves a modern family. Like, the four of us, like, her and I are like the closest of friends. We talk weekly. I mean, constantly. We get together all of the time. I do things individually with the kids. We do Christmas together. We go on family vacations together. One of them just called me again. This is going to make me emotional because it. It. It gives me the glimpse into the people that they're becoming, which gives me so much hope. One of them called me last Saturday out of the blue and just said, because their dad still doesn't step up and pay for things, I've been to more of their sporting events in the past year than he has. And that's me. Like, I want to show up for them. I want to do that for them. I want to be there for them. I want to support them. But even things like, one of them has a sporting tournament actually this weekend, and their mom couldn't afford to go. And I said, let me look into it. I'll see if I can figure out a way to make it happen. And she's like, well, will you come with? And I originally said, yes, but then when I looked at travel, being here with you and then turning around and the flight was pretty expensive, I said, I going to sit this one out, but I will. I commit to coming to games in town, right? And so I made that happen for her to be able to travel and go be there this weekend and then paid for the dues for the sport for the year because their dad was supposed to pay for it and didn't, and I didn't. I don't know if she shares that stuff with them or not. Right? Like, I just am happy to help out. So they called me on Saturday and it looked like I literally had to get off the phone because I was like, I'm gonna burst into tears because it just was. I was so proud in so many ways. And they just called and said, jenny, I just wanted to call and say thank you for making it happen so that my mom can come to my tournament this weekend and for taking care and helping out of my dues. I'm really grateful that you're in my life. So sweet. I can't. I can't. It just was such a proud Mama moment. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I said, thank you for saying that. I can't. Like, I love you so much. And they're like, I love you too, Ginny. So, like, that part is really cool that we're still in each other's lives.
- [96:43]
A
And how long has it been since all this happened?
- [96:47]
B
Eight years.
- [96:48]
A
Wow. And do you ever.
- [96:53]
B
A little over seven years and stuff. No, I've never run into him since all of this. Never once.
- [96:58]
A
Wow.
- [96:59]
B
He's scared of me.
- [97:00]
A
Okay.
- [97:01]
B
He won't go anywhere near me. Yeah.
- [97:02]
A
Okay. Do you ever think about if you're gonna run into him at, like, one of their events or something?
- [97:07]
B
So. No. Because he doesn't really show up.
- [97:09]
A
Okay.
- [97:11]
B
And if he. There was one that I wanted to go to because it was at my high school that I graduated from, and I was like, oh, I'll go to that. And then their mom was like, he's gonna be there. And I was like, has to ruin everything. Like the one that he went to. And then he actually moved away. He moved to Texas.
- [97:29]
A
Okay.
- [97:29]
B
For. We call her toddler 2.0.
- [97:31]
A
Okay.
- [97:32]
B
Because they just keep getting younger. They actually got engaged. And shockingly, that didn't work out, so he just moved back. He had. He had tried to sell his personal training, and that person reached out to me about how badly they got scammed. He had fraudulently charged, like, 14 or 15 hundred dollars on one of his attorney attorney clients. Credit cards.
- [97:55]
A
Jesus.
- [97:56]
B
Who they had stuck with him even after knowing all of the information. He and his wife, who we have a mutual friend, had stuck with him. And then once they got screwed over, she was like, I'm really sorry I didn't believe you. And that was. You know, it's disappointing sometimes when people have to experience it for themselves. Yeah. You know, or that it came down to it being about money or whatever for them. And that's fine. Like, that's their own journey. But. Yeah. So he moved to Texas and was, like, selling used trucks on Facebook. Marketplace. Not really sure, but I think has been really struggling financially. But he moved back. Before he even moved back, he was already posted in the Are we dating the same guy Group again? People are sending me screenshots of his dating profiles. Him saying that he has a graduate degree, that he's a millionaire now he says he's a medical device sales rep up. Never has been. He's living with his mom at 48 years old. So, yeah, that's. I. I don't ever run into him. But what I will Tell you is what's really interesting is right when we. A few months after we split up. No, it was a. It was quite a while longer. A few years actually. It was after my dad passed away, so my dad passed away in 2021, so five years ago, I had met with this guide virtually. She doesn't call herself a psychic or a medium or anything like that. She calls herself a guide. I don't know what you believe, but I believe in Barb. Okay. Barb is everything she has ever told me, I've met with her three times now has all been true. It's wild. When I was still in corporate, this first session I had with her, she said, I don't. Your career is going to change. She said, I see you speaking like on stages all over the world. My primary job now is a speaker. This is what I do. And I never envisioned that for myself. But also in that same call, she shared with me that Chad had thought about killing me. She said, these words were so eerie. I'll never forget them. She said he literally thought about what it would be like to take my. The breath out of you. And that's not even the weirdest part. I think the eeriest part is when I shared that with his ex wife. She said, I'm not surprised because when backed in the corner those couple of times where I saw him change like, and I didn't recognize him, like when that switch flips, I think it is really scary.
- [100:31]
A
Yeah. Like what's capable.
- [100:33]
B
What he's capable of. So never have run into him. But he did move back and I have been a little bit more. I don't like to use the word hyper vigilant because that sounds bad. But I've been a little more vigilant.
- [100:45]
A
Yeah.
- [100:45]
B
Like extra precautions at home because he knows where I live. Right. And just. Yeah. I saw him one time driving down the street and that was it. That was right after we split up.
- [101:00]
A
So how long did you. This was the first book, right?
- [101:04]
B
Yeah, you're my favorite.
- [101:05]
A
And how long did you write that? How long after you guys broke up?
- [101:10]
B
So I started writing it about four, five, six months after we split up.
- [101:14]
A
Okay.
- [101:15]
B
And I very actively wrote like I think it was pretty cathartic in the beginning.
- [101:20]
A
Sure.
- [101:21]
B
So I wrote pretty aggressively for about six to nine months. And then one of my close friends kind of discouraged me and made some backhanded comments about like. Well, you know, in order to be an author you have to be able to explain things without like, like, like how you have to describe Scenes and like, write, like. And I was like, yeah, I understand. Like, I actually. Okay.
- [101:45]
A
But also, there's all different types of writers.
- [101:47]
B
Yeah. And I also really excelled at writing in, you know, schools, in my life, I'll be fine things. And so I kind of got discouraged and, you know, put it away on the proverbial shelf for about a year and a half until my second session with Barb.
- [102:02]
A
I need Barb's info.
- [102:03]
B
And Barb said, and I. My friends, I had two friends in the room at the time. One has unfortunately since passed. But my friend that was with me, she was actually visiting me this weekend. And Barb said, there's something that you've started that you keep circling back to that you haven't finished. It's about 80% of the way done. And she said, but you keep circling back to it. You need to finish that because your job in this life is to help people heal and share their stories. And all three of us looked at each other and were like, it's the book. And Barbara's like, I don't know, is it the book? Yeah, it's the book. Then finish the book. So I literally scheduled a session the following week with the publisher. I worked on this book with the following week. And we set a six month timeline and we published it that following spring.
- [102:52]
A
Amazing. And that's the one that became bestseller.
- [102:54]
B
Yeah, that's. You're my favorite. And that's the story of what we talked about here today. The story of my experience. And I want to be really clear. It's not about him. Yes, of course. It's about the things that he did, but it's really about my journey.
- [103:08]
A
Absolutely.
- [103:09]
B
And I think in this situation, a lot of people could choose to be jaded or have a chip on their shoulder or never trust anyone again or become angry. I think that is kind of the easier path.
- [103:20]
A
Insecure.
- [103:21]
B
Insecure, Yeah, I think that's the easier path to take. And people ask me all the time, they're like, well, why did you, why did you choose to share the story and, you know, want to help other people? And when I first did it, and I think this is sort of a self preservation technique, I was like, well, if I can just help one person, you know, like. Like, that's so stupid. Don't ever think that with the work that you're doing that it's meaning. Right? Like, and it was. And it did turn out to be really meaningful. I had, you know, I put the book out. I was still in corporate. I still had my Big, fancy corporate job. Like, I had no intentions or plans. Luckily, I had a super supportive boss who is actually going to be coming staying with me next week from New York. She flew out from New York to come to the book party and her support still to this day. She was one of the first people that bought my new book. And. And I worked in aesthetics, which a lot of companies and people, they don't encourage or support doing things outside of your corporate job. And I was really fortunate to have that. So I really had no idea what I was going to do with it at that point. It wasn't until almost a year later, after that book came out that I had. Throughout that year, I started building. I hired a business coach, a speaking coach, got all my coaching certifications through an ICF accredited program, really started building the foundation for the work that I do today. Then I, you know, and through the whole process, like, I went on a meditation retreat, which prior I would have been like, yeah, you go take your cute little pillow and then you're gonna go sit down and do your thing. But that has been life changing for me. Absolutely.
- [104:53]
A
Meditation is key.
- [104:54]
B
Yeah. I have just. I was so misaligned and I really came to the understanding that why I picked him is because his behaviors were familiar to me from my family. Family of origin. The narcissism, the manipulation, the gaslighting, the like. And there's comfort and familiarity, even if it's bad, unfortunately. And I had to do a lot of inner child work. I had to. I chose to do a lot of inner child work. I chose to do a lot of work. I chose to start meditating, journaling. Just really changing. And I feel like I have become who I was always meant to be. Yes, I've become more of myself. I've come into alignment. The softness and vulnerability that was always there. But hiding under this tough shell has now been exposed. I cry all the time, like, as you should. I become like this emotional person that again, I think I was just like stifling all of this. And so that vulnerability. And like anybody that knows knew me before and then reading this book would be like, whoa, I had no idea.
- [106:02]
A
Right?
- [106:03]
B
You know, I had no idea you were going through all of that, or I had no idea, you know, like, it's. It's just a very different evolution, who I am today versus who I was then.
- [106:13]
A
And I think it's really easy to get caught up in the why me? When things happen. But I love that you use, you use the word that you chose to do it Because I think sometimes we think that, you know, things will just happen without really having to work for it, and maybe sometimes it does. But I do think you consciously have to make the decision to take a different path to better yourself and to better your life. And nine times out of 10, I don't think that's always the comfortable path to take, but that's usually the path with the most growth. And it allows us to, like you said, to become aligned and to discover new parts about ourselves that I think were always there, but we didn't have the tools or the experiences yet to unleash it.
- [107:03]
B
Yeah. You know, I think we find the best parts of ourselves in things and chaos and trauma. Yeah. We have the opportunity to find the best parts of ourselves, and I definitely feel that way.
- [107:14]
A
Well, because it kind of pushes you more towards these things that inflict change. You know, meditation, going on those retreats, having people help you, you know, along that way to get to where you are now, hiring coaches and everything else. It's like, would you have done those things if you weren't almost forced to? In a way, you still make the choice, but it's like, okay, I'm right here. This is how I. I'm feeling now. I either stay in this pain and this trauma, or I try something different. And I try, you know, and. And I think the best thing is when we can take a better, better path for ourselves. But that. It also includes helping others. Because so many people need to hear your story. So many people need to hear everyone's story. Because. And it's funny, because I always used to say when I started this, and even when I would talk to people, it will always help at least one person. I promise. And just to see that is. It's. That's such a small number. So small. Like, it's so much bigger than that. And people appreciate it so much. The vulnerability. The. The vulnerability and I think just the rawness of being able to share some of your darkest, hardest moments. And that looks different for everybody.
- [108:25]
B
Yeah. I mean, I remember after the phone call and getting the receipt for the hotel room, like, I felt like I was gonna puke. I was like, I don't. Like, my body is revolting. Like, I think I'm gonna throw up. Like, I was like, I'm going to be sick. I ran to the bathroom and I just kind of heaved. Like, I didn't actually throw up, but then I just was, like, laying on the cold bathroom tile floor in fetal position, right. Like, before I could even peel myself off. And Start moving forward. And thank you for saying that, like, that people's stories need to be heard, because I believe that too. And even, like, when, even when I talk, you know, in my keynotes, I only have a. Because it's not about me, it's about my audience. So I only have a little bit of time to just glimpse, like, kind of glaze over my story. And people are always like, we want to hear more of your story. I'm like, here it is. Here it is. Right. Like, there's plenty of places to hear more about my story. But the people that come up to me afterwards in tears going, I went through this. And you sharing what you went through helped me tap into that and realize it's okay, it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay that I went through this. It's okay to talk about it. You know, even if their story is eerily similar or completely differently different.
- [109:35]
A
Yeah, that's what I always say. Because the emotions and the reactions and the feelings can overlap so much. And that's what people don't realize, that by sharing their story, it doesn't have to relate to somebody else's for somebody to feel heard and seen.
- [109:49]
B
Yeah.
- [109:50]
A
And you become an inspiration. You know, you become somebody that. You went through this and you lived in that, but you didn't stay stuck in it. And now you're here. I mean, you. Your whole life was changed. Your relationship, like, your love life, everything, your career, all of it changed. And I think that that goes to show that even. Even though that I'm sure at many times was so scary and so uncomfortable, it taught you so much. And it makes you. I mean, it sounds cliche, but and, but it's. It makes you stronger, makes you grow. It makes you become a version of yourself that you don't recognize at most, but in the best way possible.
- [110:32]
B
Yeah. I love that you use the word stronger and strength because my TEDX talk, I talk about minimizing and what a problem it is when we try to minimize our own experiences or even worse, when other people try to minimize your story or experience. And I talk about the difference between tough and strong. There really is a difference. And I actually think earlier when I said who I always was was under here, but, like, masked under this tough, false armor.
- [111:00]
A
Absolutely.
- [111:00]
B
Tough and strong are really different.
- [111:03]
A
So true.
- [111:04]
B
Tough is eventually going to break. Yep. But strength is almost like the shell of. It is the flexibility of what you can carry. And I love to use the analogy of. Have you heard of Kintsugi?
- [111:17]
A
Yes. Maybe just Once.
- [111:19]
B
So it's a Japanese art form.
- [111:21]
A
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the woman that she came on and she was ran over, like, three times or something. I think she's into. She talked about that.
- [111:31]
B
Okay.
- [111:32]
A
It's like putting the pieces back together or something and making it. Yeah, I love that.
- [111:36]
B
So it's kind of like I always say, we have three options. So kintsugi is a Japanese art form where they put a broken piece of pottery, a bowl or a vase back together, but with gold. Gold joinery. And so the idea is that that makes it more beautiful. My take on it is we kind of have three choices. Right. Like our friend Jessica Buchanan always says, you always have choices. And so you could either sweep up the broken pieces and throw them away and pretend like nothing ever happened.
- [112:02]
A
Right.
- [112:03]
B
You can try to camouflage it and make it seem like, you know, or, you know, like the sweeping up and throw it away is like, ignoring it and then, like, trying to make it look like it never happened by camouflaging the pieces together. And, you know, sometimes it makes it look worse.
- [112:18]
A
Right.
- [112:18]
B
Or the gold joinery is to make it more beautiful. Like, what if we improve, embrace those flaws, if we embrace the experiences, the things that broke us in the first place to catapult us forward to a new, better place than we ever were to begin with.
- [112:33]
A
Absolutely. And I. I think it's so important to. And that's something that I love about this platform is, you know, there I. When I began it, I always said, I want so many different varieties of people and stories, and there's some people that come. Come on here, and they are very much still in the trauma, still in the pain and the hurt, and that's okay, because there's so many people watching that are right there. You know, there's people that maybe are 10 steps ahead of that or five steps, or they're where you are, where it's this full circle moment, and they. They've grown something incredible, and they can kind of. They can help and teach people, which. I was just saying this yesterday to a woman I was speaking to. I. I was saying how. How beautiful it is to be coached and taught and relate to somebody who is very inspiring and motivating and that you trust and you want to listen to, but yet, you know that they've also been somewhere that was painful and caused hurt and shame and literally all these emotions, because that's what makes us relate to people. We don't always just want to gain all this information from somebody that just has the degree you know, we want to feel like we can relate to another human being. And it's not to say that anyone is above us or below us or that anyone's story is more important. I think it's just to say, I went through this. Now I'm here, and I want to show you and teach you what I've learned through the way. Yeah. And that's incredible.
- [114:05]
B
Well, it's incredible that you're providing a platform for people to do that and for people to listen and learn and to feel. Feel not alone. I think that's always the biggest thing. Like, people are like, well, what do you want? I was like, I. I would. Don't. I want people to know that they're not alone.
- [114:19]
A
Yeah.
- [114:19]
B
You know, because it can feel very lonely when you're going through the.
- [114:24]
A
So lonely. I think almost we want to be alone, too. Even though it feels lonely. There's nothing in those moments that make us feel better. And that's the reality. No friend, no cocktail. Like, you have these little, maybe 0.5 seconds where you're like, oh, this is fun. And then you're right back to the feeling of being so heartbroken and so upset. And that is so normal. And you should feel those things whenever you go through anything. It's just. Don't stay stuck. Yeah, you can't, because it will destroy everything, you know, and we can never, as hard as it is, we can't let somebody else's bad choices and lack of growth and everything else be the reason why we stop moving forward. And it's hard, you know, especially when we change our whole lives for people. But I. I'm a big believer. I've said this a few times on here now, and I'll say it again, that we are not faced with things unless the universe, whatever you believe, God knows you can handle it. You can handle it. You know, it sucked in the moment, but you more than handled it.
- [115:31]
B
You know, we're handling it.
- [115:33]
A
And that's why I, you know, to hear that he thought about killing you doesn't surprise me either, because he want.
- [115:44]
B
He doesn't.
- [115:45]
A
People like that want to silence people like you because naturally you hold power in your voice, in your story, and that is an incredible thing. And he is. He has no power.
- [116:00]
B
No. And the wild thing, too, Devorah, is that I, like, unsubscribe, is all of the work that I do now. Right. And that's what I'm getting booked for TV segments.
- [116:12]
A
And that's the second book.
- [116:13]
B
That's actually the third So I don't have the second one here. The second book is a guided journal. So it's called. Oh, I love that it's called. I'm my favorite.
- [116:20]
A
Okay.
- [116:20]
B
It is so beautiful, and it feels weird. Like, I'm not saying that in a boastful, braggadocious way, but my illustrator and designer is so incredibly talented. The illustrations are beautiful, calming, and so I kind of walk you through. I call it Gin Path, which is the steps that I took to get through this horrific situation. So if you're going through any sort of a difficult situation, it's 13 months. So you get over a full year of journaling, guidance, different exercises.
- [116:47]
A
Send me the link to that too, so I can put it in the description.
- [116:51]
B
I love it. It's so beautiful. I love that work and that. It's a beautiful book. So that was the second one, and then the third one is unsubscribe. Subscribe. Why Letting go is the secret to getting ahead. And that is all the keynote speaking that I do now. It's what my publicist does to get me on TV segments and whatnot. But what I'm finding is that everyone is interested in the Chad story because it does lead us to where we got to today. And so the funny thing is, I think that he thinks that, oh, it's so far in the rear view mirror, but I'm like, like, oh, sweetheart, we're just getting started. Like, the platforms are just getting bigger. The exposure is just getting bigger. And that will always be part of the core story, because it's why I'm where I am today.
- [117:36]
A
It is. And I. I always kind of compare my episodes to a book, and I. I tell my guests this all the time. And something else you had mentioned about people feeling like their stories aren't as. You know, they're not. They're not as important or as crazy. And I hear all the time people are like, I know my story might not be as crazy as some of the ones you had. And I was like, that is not the point of the show. You know, it's not. There are some. Definitely some crazy ones on there. But there are so many people that can relate to just the more simple stories that are just. They hold just as heavy, you know, just the same amount of heaviness and value and trauma and chaos and whatever else. But it kind of goes back to the Chad story because people don't. I feel like people don't want to just hear the climax of your story. The craziest part. And maybe there are some People that do. But from what I have found, and the beauty of, you know, the platform I've tried to create, is that people have the ability to tell all of it. They have the ability to tell their childhood if they want to. They have the ability to tell this background of who they are. You know, it's not this. We're so caught up in this social media movement right now where everything is so quick and fast paced and you can't hold somebody's attention. And, you know, I get it, that's kind of how it is. And everybody is looking for the next Rush or dopamine hit when they're scrolling through TikTok. But, you know, I think the beauty is to kind of take it back and hear about someone's life, because it could be the smallest little thing that you share in your childhood that maybe isn't even anything bad or you think isn't even important, but it hits somebody. It hit. It hits home and it makes someone feel like, wow, like it changes somebody's life, honestly. And it changes someone's life. And there was not even. You don't even know about it. Like, there wasn't a communication. They didn't have to go anywhere. They just listened to a story from, you know, the convenience of their own home, their phone, wherever they might be. But I always encourage people. I'm like, please share anything and everything. Like, don't. I understand a lot of people reach out with maybe like the craziest part of their story or life, but I always encourage people. I'm like, tell me who you are. You could like, of course, have the main thing or your. Your middle climax, be what you want to come on to talk about, but tell everybody who you are. Tell everybody where you are now, your healing journey, because those parts are just as important. But I do think there is something remarkable in being able to tell everything and have it be full circle and not just, you know, these key points and how cool is it that somebody can find you and maybe only hear your. Maybe some things that you do for, like, coaching or helping people, and they're like, wow, that's amazing. She's amazing. And then they look into you and there's this whole backstory and it gives you character, it gives. It gives you a personality. You become a human being. You know what I mean? And I feel like it's so easy to. I don't know if that makes much sense or if I'm explaining that right, but I feel like it's so easy on social media to scroll and you just see all these different faces and it becomes like a blur. But I don't think we should ever lose that human interaction and that connection because it's our stories that connect us to each other, even if we're not directly communicating.
- [120:48]
B
Absolutely. And it's so interesting. Like, another podcast I was just on recently, she was. She really related to the cheating part. And she was. She got, like. When I saw you get, like, viscerally upset about the dogs, right? Like, she got viscerally upset about the cheating and, like, the physical harm potential that you have. And, you know, I was explaining, I think it was what I kicked him out, or I found out on Tuesday or Wednesday morning, kicked him out Friday morning. I was at the doctor getting tested for everything under the sun, right? And if you've ever been there, I was here humiliated. I was mortified. I was embarrassed. I didn't do anything wrong, right? But here I am, like, under the fluorescent lights on the crisp white paper with a stranger between my legs and my feet in stirrups, right. Because of what he was doing. And. But you feel mortified and humiliated. And so it's like, even if people have ever been in that situation, like, that part can be relatable. And if I can give them any reassurance, it's like, you didn't do anything wrong. There's. There's nothing to be embarrassed about, right? So I think you're right. It just depends on what part of the story people can relate to. And that's what makes us all human.
- [121:57]
A
Absolutely.
- [121:58]
B
And all insane.