Unknown Host (4:42)

But so you would just spend Sundays with him. So one day a week.

Kelsey Zazanis (4:45)

So he got Sundays initially. Later on it changed into like weekend long.

Unknown Host (4:51)

Got it.

Kelsey Zazanis (4:51)

But initially it was every Sunday. And you know, like, when you're a child, your parents are your world and they're also really all, you know, so like you don't have any until you end up going to school and being exposed to other adults. Like they're the only adults in your life. So they're like your image of safety and love. Like no matter how they're treating you, like that's your only frame of reference. But for the most part, my dad seemed normal. He seemed like, I mean, he was like an all American Christian father type of thing. And it's hard to really say if there were signs because I was so young. But yeah, he was like, I only saw him once a week, so it was warm enough. But I guess I'll start with like when everything started to change. So like I said, my sister is a year older than me. And so because we were pretty close in age, like we were really best friends. And on Those Sundays with my father, like, she was so. She was a year older than me, but she was, like, two years in school just based on, like, the month cut off. And she. We had different interests. Like, I was very interested in art. She was very, like, brainiac, reading all the time. Really, really smart. And my father, I think, took a lot of interest in, like, what showed as, like, a promising intellect in her. So he would, like, you know, buy her all these books. And they eventually started doing this. I don't know if you remember, but they used to, like, sell. They used to have. These were really big for kids. They were these little, like, packets of, like, trivia called Brain Quests.

Unknown Host (6:43)

Yeah.

Kelsey Zazanis (6:44)

Oh, okay. Yeah. So there were, like. They had different themes, like, educational stuff. Like, one would be maybe, like, geography or math. And I don't remember completely, but, like, we had a ton of those that he would kind of play with with my sister. And so. Oh, I should also clarify that, like, he lived in a house in Maryland, but after he and my mother split, he was, like, renting the upstairs to another family. Okay. And he was living in the basement. So every Sunday we would be, like, in his basement.

Unknown Host (7:18)

Got it.

Kelsey Zazanis (7:21)

And so he had, like, a back bedroom. And it's kind of blurry at this point. I was 6 and my sister was 8 years old. And he would do this thing called special. He called it Special time with Daddy where he would pull my sister to the back room, and they would just, like, be in the bedroom together, and I would be just doing my own thing, playing with my own toys, whatever. There were times where I would, like, wander back to find them, and I would see them on the bed, just kind of studying the brain quests. So I kind of got an idea of, like, what that was. And it happened frequently. And one Sunday, the same kind of thing. I'm left alone, playing by myself. And I. And this might be hard, so bear with me to re. As I recount it, but I wander into his back bedroom, and it's dark, and I see. So I'm six. And at six, you really don't have the words to even begin to conceptualize a scene like this, but I see him and my older sister naked on the bed, and he's on top of her, and she is frozen and limp, and she looks dead because her eyes are, like. They're open, but they're glazed over, like as if. Like an. As if an animal had died with their eyes open. Like, she was. She looked dead, and he was moving on top of her. And at the time I didn't. I obviously did not know what that was, but it looked like she was being attacked. And. And as I walk into the room, I guess my father hears me while he's raping her. And he turns his head and he makes direct eye contact with me for like a second. And then he just turns back and continues raping her as if I was. As if he hadn't seen me at all. Like, as if I was just like a ghost in the corner of the room. And I was. I was frozen. But I. There was nothing else I could do because he. There was no acknowledgment, there was nothing. So I just like walked out of the room and. And that was that. And. But later that evening, I think he would like, really keep to himself and he was like, private in a lot of ways while, like the kids were left, like, we had a lot of time alone between each other where we could talk. So like, later that evening I saw her and I just remember in the hallway, like outside that bedroom, like, confiding in her and like being very scared and asking her, like, what was that? Are you okay? And I was really surprised by her reaction because it was very much like, yes, don't worry about it. Like, please just stop. Don't worry about it. Like, it was evident that she, like, didn't want to talk about it. And. But I was asking questions because, like, my intuition, like, I didn't need to know what it was. Like, I had no clue. What, like, like rape or sex or any. Like even. Yeah, none of that.

Unknown Host (11:27)

Well, that's the thing. It's so interesting, you know, from hearing so many different stories like this. And I always. I mean, it's. I feel like it's kind of obvious that even as a child you don't know what's happening, but it's like your gut knows that it's something wrong. Even though you might have, like, never heard of sex, never seen sex, it's just, you know.

Kelsey Zazanis (11:45)

Exactly. This is.

Unknown Host (11:46)

Well, because too, it's like we're on a day to day basis. We're not naked. You know what I mean? We're not. Nobody's just walking around naked. So to see that type of act, it. Like it's a. Even as a child, even if you can't describe it or understand it, you know, something's off and it's scary.

Kelsey Zazanis (12:04)

Yeah. And like, before we learn language, like, as creatures we are like very attuned to energy. And I just, I mean, for lack of any way to put it, like you, what you're saying with the intuition, you can just feel like everything about it feels dark, it feels violent, it feels like evil. And so I felt that and it, and I knew, like I didn't need to know what it was. I just, I, and, and I knew from the look in her eyes, like that was not my sister. That was like, like so, yeah, terrifying. And she was very defensive, she was very scared. And it was clear to me that, I mean looking back it, it's clear that she was threatened into keeping it secret. And you know, but, but I was asking questions because I was concerned and I was like, why does he do that? Like, what is that? And she was like, he does it because he misses Mommy. So at this point, like I said, my parents were divorced and he, my mother divorced him and he was like, still single. I guess not obviously. And I'm going to go into it, obviously that's no reason, that's like a crazy excuse to tell a child. But she told me he does it when he misses mommy and he does it to me because I look like her. And that I should clarify it was pretty cryptic because. So I have blonde hair and my father has the same kind of like dirty blonde as me, but my, my mother and my sister actually have like the same color hair as you, like dark brown, nearly black. So there was this like clear like distinction. And so in my six year old child mind, like it made sense. I was like, oh, like he misses her and she looks like her. And it was, it was very dark, very twisted. But she said that. And then I was like, we need to tell mommy. Like I just, I knew and she was like no, like no, we can't and was so, so serious about it. And I pushed because like I was terrified. My intuition was really telling me that it was important. And then out of, out of nowhere, like my sister to really shut me down, she was like, if you tell her I'm gonna kill myself. And like if you tell mommy, I'm gonna kill myself. And again it was like this flooding of like one thing after another that I really didn't understand. Like I had never heard of the concept of suicide. Like I didn't know that was a thing. But I did like have some sort of conception around dying because my grandma had died previously around the same time my parents got divorced. And that like really affected me when I was younger. So like I knew what loss was and so I understood the risk of losing my sister. And that was terrifying because she was my best friend and like I knew the right thing to do would be to tell my mother, but the risk of not only like, losing my sister, her life ending, like never seeing her again, but then on another level, being the one responsible, like, for why she's gone if, like, I was. If I told. And then I'm the reason she decided to do that. So that threat shut me up immediately. It was like, it was a disgusting feeling that I didn't understand, like, how wrong it felt to be keeping a secret. But I. That didn't leave me with like, any choice because as a child you don't have that logic. Like, if, if that's even like any. If there's even like a slight chance that could happen, like, it just shut me up. So after that I was so. I was six, she was eight. I was in first grade at the time. My mother, I should say, had remarried a man a few years prior. And he was really great, just like a really solid, safe man that I really trusted. So he, and I'll explain later, was very much like a father figure to me. But my exposure to men in my life pretty much was just my stepfather, him, and then my father the rapist. And my first grade teacher at the time was also a man. And so without the words to really understand what was happening, I was just very haunted by the image I saw and the way. I mean, I. All I really had at that point was pattern recognition. And it was like a man doing this to like, the little girls that he loves. And I really just was left with this impression that this is something that like men do when they're close to people. And so I became like, very irrationally afraid of my first grade teacher. And that was like the first impact. I really felt like every day in class, like, I was a very good student and I was like, I was very sweet and I could tell that he really like, believed in me. Like, I could feel his like, like a very pure love coming from my teacher. But that actually terrified me even more because, like, previously I'd felt something like that from my father. And I'm like, oh, well, this is, this is what happens. This is what men do. So that was kind of the first bit of me really feeling the impact. But on the other hand, my. I basically started witnessing my sister slowly deteriorate. And so she was two grades above me, so third grade at that point. And you can only imagine the physical impact of being. Having your body invaded at that age and like having. It's a life threatening event that's happening to you. Like who knows how often. And, like, it's very common to develop all sorts of, like, nervous habits and tics and just, like, ways your body is reacting to that level of, like, constant danger. And so she, you know, she was always, like, biting her nails. She was doing very strange, like, quote, strange behaviors, like, compulsively, like, picking her nose, like, eating it at times, like, even, like, licking her shoe. It was, like, very clearly the signs of, like, a child in distress. Like, when birds are, like, you know, depressed, they'll, like, pick out their feathers. It's just. It's very evident to me, like, that these were signs of her, like, unraveling. But of course, what they get labeled at that time is some sort of, quote, mental illness. Because despite how common it is, and I'm sure, you know, like, it's incredibly common for this kind of sexual abuse to be happening, but, like, it's not really spoken about, and so people didn't really question it. And she was instead, funneled into psychiatry as a. As a child. So she was taken to a. Because my mom was worried, and my mom, like, saw what was happening. And, like, my sister had been sworn into secrecy by my dad, and so was I. So, yeah, they just took her to a child psychiatrist to try to see what was happening. And at that point, like, one of my earliest memories is. I mean, I have a lot of. There were a lot of weeks I spent, like, just waiting in the waiting room while my sister was, like, at this appointment. But there was one point where they took us into, like, play therapy, which is, like, in the sandbox. You're, like, the psychiatrist asks the kids to, like, model their family. And so my sister and I are, like, playing together because they, like, brought me in for her to, like, have someone. And. And they were like, show us your family. And so we model out, like, this is our mom, and this is our stepdad, and, like, this is us, and it's just the four of us, and, like, our dad is nowhere.

Unknown Host (21:30)

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Kelsey Zazanis (23:04)

And the psychiatrist was like, well, where's your father? And. And we take another little figurine and then we put it at the very end of the sandbox, like in the corner with his head upside down, buried in the sand and just like laugh to ourselves and giggle because at the time, like, we didn't have words. But that was like, as kids, like, our communication about it. And I know what happened behind closed doors because my mother later told me that supposedly the psychiatrist said to her after the appointment, these kids have a major problem with their father. But then they just put her on meds because at the time, so like, they were divorced. And I should mention that he, he basically had us in like, he had my mother in a constant legal battle, like a custody battle. So he was trying to like, get more visitation time. So the narrative that was out in the open about like the family conflict was mostly just like, oh, he is trying to get more visitation in court and it's causing a lot of stress because court cases are stressful and the kids are stressed because of this. And that was kind of like the prevailing narrative of like, why we have a problem with our dad because, like, he keeps taking her to court and it's just like the kids don't want that. So she got put on medication. It did, I will say, like, it, it numbed her, I think for sure it numbed her.

Unknown Host (25:03)

Did they say what they were treating her with?

Kelsey Zazanis (25:06)

So to say, yeah, at the time, I really think she was diagnosed with like, ocd, adhd. And I think it was because there were these, like, compulsive behaviors, right? And there were a lot of fears too, I should mention, like, like, I don't know, she was just like, very scared, like, terrified of, like, bad things happening, which a lot of people label that ocd, basically. Yeah. She was like, psychiatrized, put on medication, and honestly bullied a lot, I'll say, because of those behaviors being on public display at school, she started getting bullied a lot. And that made things, like, much worse. But for the most part, like. And like I said, I was like, very afraid. But I think I. I really sought out solace in friendship, like, at that point with my sister kind of mentally deteriorating. I shouldn't even say mentally. It was like, full, like, emotionally, physically, like, all of these things coming together. But that, I mean, we were best friends before, and that really drove a wedge in our relationship because she basically curled in on herself. But to survive, she really, like, again, she enjoyed reading before that. So she really dove into, like, reading and like, other worlds. Like, imagine, like Harry Potter obsession, like, all of these, like, really positive, as positive of an escape as you can really find at that age. So I also really got the impression, which is very sick, but I got the impression that this was a. Was because of the reason she gave, that he does this to me because I look like mommy, because she has brown hair like our mother. There was this impression that it wouldn't happen to me and almost that my older sister was doing this to kind of keep. Keep this away from me. So we kept continuing seeing him just every Sunday. And at that point, my father had a friend that he grew up with with his own family. So like, imagine his former friend growing up, like, has a wife and a kid, and they lived just like a couple hours north. So some weekends, because she was also an only child, they would, like, come visit. So the parents could, like, hang out together and then their daughter would, like, hang out with us kids. And like I said, all the names here are real, except to protect this little girl's privacy, I'm going to just call her M, the letter M. So she was three years old at that point. I was. I'm eight now, so I'm five years older than her. And she starts kind of coming every couple months to visit. And like, I've always had a thing for, like, I don't know, I grew up very playful, like, a close attachment to, like, animals and children. And just like anything I could, like, nurture and So I really loved having someone younger than me because she was like a little sister, and I always wanted one. And so that actually made those weekend or the Sunday visitations much more pleasant because I had this cute little girl to play with, and we grew really close, like, so close that, like, I don't know, she really felt like family and, like, they began visiting more frequently just because her parents saw how attached she was to me. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms. Apply. So one weekend, and I will also say there were some weekends where my sister wasn't around, and maybe it was like she had some sort of extracurricular, I'm not quite sure. But on one of the weekends where it was just me and Em, the little girl, and we were playing together, and I think her parents had, like, stepped out to go off on their own or have some sort of quality time. And that was one of the reasons why, like, I think they also enjoyed this because, like, when the families came together, like, parents could kind of take off shifts. So me and the little girl were left with my father in his basement, and she and I were just playing together. And he approaches us and asks us if we want to, like, play a game in the shower. And so, like, again, like, there's intuition there where you can kind of tell when something feels off. And something felt really off for me. But I was with her, and that was good at least. And he was my father, and he was the only authority figure there, so we had to kind of follow him. And so he. He told us to come play this game in the shower and, like, undressed us and brought us into the shower, almost as if we were just gonna. He was just gonna bathe us. And at that age, you're still, like, being your mom is still kind of, like, should be teaching you eventually how to, like, shower yourself. But I think most kids are used to their parents showering them at that age. And so it wasn't like, crazy, even though the energy was weird and I didn't know, like, why she was coming in with me. But he brings us into the shower and Again, this might be like really hard to recall but. Because I'm going to say some deep, like some details that are just gross. But yeah, it just shifts and I realize, like it really dawns on me like, oh my God, he's about to do what I. What I saw before.

Unknown Host (32:16)

Now, quick question. Did you only witness it one time with your sister?

Kelsey Zazanis (32:21)

Yeah. Okay, I only did. But it looking back, it is very scary cuz I'm really not sure how many times it had happened prior.

Unknown Host (32:30)

Okay, got it. And there were multiple times that they were going kind of in that back room by themselves. Okay. That was just the only time you kind of walked in on it.

Kelsey Zazanis (32:39)

Well, the strange part is, is like I. They were doing this what he called special time with daddy where they were studying the brain quests.

Unknown Host (32:47)

Yeah.

Kelsey Zazanis (32:47)

And there were some. There was at least one time before that when I like would walk in and there were just all these brain quests and they're sitting on the bed studying brain quests. So then the other time I walk in and she's being raped. So yeah, from my impression was that they're just doing this like study thing together. But it's. Maybe it was a mix of both. I'm really not like, I'm pretty sure it. Especially by our conversation afterwards. Like this is a thing he does when he misses mommy. It seemed like it was an established thing. Got it Right. So we're in the shower, me and the little girl, three year old M. And she, she doesn't like talk that much, you know, like as any three year old does. She can say some stuff but she's very quiet. And then I'm. I guess I'll just get into it. He starts like molesting her. Like her first in front of me. And she starts like crying and she's really scared and. And like I think her crying kind of made him like back off for a second. And like it's a tight space. Like this is happening in a shower. And so she's in the corner and he. It's disgusting because he was just gonna like do whatever he wanted to me. Like he was about to stick his penis inside of me, just. And I was in so much pain. Like I started like freaking out and like. And then he stopped and hesitated, you know, and that's where I really, in that moment, like I felt like I saw my life flash before my eyes because I knew something was really, something really bad was gonna happen. Like again, I didn't even know what it was, but there was this sense that there was a sense that like this was kind of like a make it or break it moment that would change the trajectory of my life. And. And so I was scared and I was trying to, in whatever way I had as a kid of like expressing my fear to him and hoping he might not. I was hesitating, buying time and he was trying to convince me to like let him do it. And he says to me, this will make you smart like your sister. And there are a lot of layers to this that I'm going to talk about probably, but over. And I'm 8 years old at this point and. But over the years, like especially with, like I said, there was this different disposition of his kids. Like she was very brainiac, I was very interested in like art. And over the years he would always like repeat like Stephanie is the smart one and Kelsey is the artistic one. And there was always a kind of like, I don't know, there was always this very clear sense that he valued intellect and it was almost like a. This vague kind of demeaning, like you weren't good enough. Yeah. And so what really feels sick and like he, I feel that he could read us very well and I feel that he knew there was this pre established tone that, that was the undertone of things that like this is a smart one. And for him to say this will make you smart like your sister, it was laden with this like, like a.

Unknown Host (37:17)

Manipulation of like that's why this is okay. Or like maybe to make you feel like this will make me seem, and correct me if I'm wrong but like it would put you on her level in a way.

Kelsey Zazanis (37:32)

Yeah. And there was this like he was withholding and like shaming in like this subtle way where I did not feel loved by him. And I was 8 years old and like, like I said to. For kids, children or for kids, parents are essentially like have an almost like godlike power in the sense that like we're born unconditionally loving towards them and no matter, like, because we're, we're still developing like, and we're not exposed to anything else. Like the love doesn't waver towards your parent even if you're seeing them do bad things. Like, particularly because like it wouldn't have been safe for me to fully let in the reality of just how dangerous he was because I was relying on him for food and shelter and, and so I had to kind of, you know, continue believing he was a safe person. And in that sense, like all I really wanted was his love. And in that moment I felt like I am. Like, there's something wrong with me and he needs to fix it, and then I'll be okay.

Unknown Host (38:58)

So did he have sex with the. With m. Or was it just. Was it more like the touching and things like that?

Kelsey Zazanis (39:05)

He molested her.

Unknown Host (39:07)

Okay.

Kelsey Zazanis (39:08)

So it was like. Sorry, I'm. I'm very sensitive with the word sex.

Unknown Host (39:16)

Yeah.

Kelsey Zazanis (39:16)

Just because. I want to clarify, like, rape. Like, but technically the definition of rape is penetration, you know, so molestation. Like, I believe he inserted his fingers.

Unknown Host (39:31)

Okay.

Kelsey Zazanis (39:31)

Into her. And so that technically is rape. But, like, at the very least, like, touching, fondling, molestation.

Unknown Host (39:42)

And then for you, he was trying.

Kelsey Zazanis (39:43)

For me, he was about to. Yeah. And so he was like, this will make you smart, like your sister. And there was a sense, like, there were layers to it too, because I knew that this was something. A violence he was doing to my sister. And if. If, like, I wanted to say no, I wished I could say no. Would he have listened to me if. If I had said no? Or would he have, like, pushed harder? But I just froze. And there was also a sense that he would keep hurting her even worse. Like, so he. Anyway, like I said, he tried putting his penis inside of me and I cried. And, like, it was so painful. And he ended up stopping and then raping me with his fingers. And so I was frozen, staring up at him. And this is like, the scary part. Like, I remember looking up at. Just seeing this, like, wide grin, the largest smile I had ever seen on him. Like. Like smiling like a maniac. And definitely this crazed look in his eyes. But as a kid, like, I had never seen an emotion like that. You know, like, you see stuff in movies of, like, very, like, dramatic things. I had never seen anything like that before. Like, and I'm. To this day, I'm not sure what kind of emotion that was, but it was the biggest smile. Like. Like a crazy maniac. Just, like, delighting in this. And. But with my limited emotional range, I just thought, like, he's like, the biggest smile I've ever seen. Like, I'm making him so happy. And. And this is a really dark part that I wasn't sure if I wanted to share or not, but I'm just going to because I think it's important to any, like, other survivors listening. Basically, he, you know, and different levels of sick and twisted. Like, and it makes very clear that rape is not about his, like, some sort of supposed physical need. Right? Because, like, he's not. He's getting off on me. Trembling in fear as he like, yeah, digitally rapes me with his fingers. Like, there's no excuse of like, I miss mommy or like I have physical needs. It's like he has some sick fascination with doing this. So out of nowhere, my body starts shaking uncontrollably and I feel like I'm about to die because there's just this like, inner like, explosion happening. And I feel like I'm completely losing control over my body and nothing like that has ever happened to me. And it even feels like I black out for a second. And what I didn't know at the time was that that was an orgasm. And I have been really hesitant to share this part over the years because there's so much stigma and this association with orgasm and pleasure, when in reality it is for a lot of people, like a physiological response that's uncontrollable in the same way that when you're being tickled, you can't help but squirm and laugh. And it does not mean you're enjoying it. Like, at the very least, like, sometimes like, you're like, please make it stop. But like, you, your body can't help that response. And so that happened to me. And I'm sure for a lot of.

Unknown Host (43:41)

Survivors, there's a lot of shame around that feeling even because it's not your fault and it's not something you want. But I can see how for somebody that can be such a confusing thing to grasp and understand and deal with 100%.

Kelsey Zazanis (43:57)

And luckily, I mean, I shouldn't say luckily, but like, as a child, I didn't even know what it was. Yeah, like, I didn't know what sex was. I didn't know what rape was. I didn't. I had never heard the word penis in my life. So this was all. Everything I was seeing was totally new territory. And that, like, was something I wouldn't learn for years to come. So I know for a lot of survivors who are raped like, let's say in their 20s and then they orgasm during the assault, that's like a really a thick, deep shame because, like, at that point you really think orgasm is pleasure.

Unknown Host (44:31)

Yeah.

Kelsey Zazanis (44:31)

But for me, like in with the brain of a child, I did not know what it was. And I asked my father afterwards because, like, I literally was shocked to even recover from like, what felt like a body blackout. And I asked him, what was that? And I'm sure it must have been terrifying for the three year old in the corner to see whatever the hell just happened, but so I say, what was that? And he says, it Means the magic worked, which was so believable for me because I felt like some like, out of this world, like, thing just possessed my body. And he had just like framed this as almost him casting a magic spell to make me smarter. So it was weird layers of like this crazy story and manipulation. Yeah. So then, you know, that's the end of the shower and he tells me, he sits me down and he tells me, like, if you, you can't tell anyone about what happened. If you tell anyone, daddy's gonna go to jail and is never going to be happy again. And you will never see M again. You'll never get to see M again. The little three year old. So these threats terrified me. A, she was like a younger sister to me, so the thought of never seeing her again broke my heart. B, like, at 8 years old I heard horror stories of jail. But for the most part, jail was where bad people went. And you know, that was, I didn't really know at that time. Like, I didn't have the word for rape, so I didn't even know what that was or if it was a criminal act. Like, all I knew was like, I had a attachment to my father and I thought of my father as a good man and why would he ever go to jail? Like, that wouldn't be right. So like a lot of children, if they are threatened with the risk of sending someone to jail, like, that really silences them. But then even more so, like, I don't have a conception of emotions and like the complexity of them. And I really believed the risk that my mother would never experience happiness another day in her life. So all of that shut me up. Then he, he left the two of us alone in the bathroom. And on his way out, I see him pick up a camera from the shelf and walk out with it. And that was like a very, I thought to myself, because this I should say, like over the years he was really into photography, like all the time. He was always taking photos of me and my sister, just like documenting everything. So seeing the camera was not out of the ordinary. But I had this sense of like, he takes photos of special moments and there was this weird, like, thought, like, was this like, so special to him? Like, he wanted to capture it? Obviously, looking back, I know that he was filming child pornography and it's really dark and disgusting. But yeah, so he left and he left me and the little girl alone to like play together to recover from what just happened. And she. I should say that, like, I was really affected by this threat of never seeing her again because I knew that I could keep it a secret, but I didn't know what she was gonna say. And there was this inherent risk that I. This would be my last time ever seeing her. Like, I really believed that. And that Sunday she had been carrying around. It's going to sound weird, but she had been carrying around and playing with this little Christmas ornament all weekend with her name on it and like the year she was born. And you know how like when we're kids, like we find those little trinkets that like have our name on them and she had a very like unique name, so I guess she didn't like find those often. But this little ornament had her name on it and she was just carrying it around and playing with it all weekend. And in the aftermath, after we left the bathroom, I saw this ornament that she was playing with on the shelf. And I don't know what came over me, but I just grabbed it and I took it and I guess I stole it. And. And my reasoning at that age was that like, I don't want to forget her. Like this might be the last time I ever see her in my life and I want to like have this thing to remember. So I took that and then I never thought about it. But then her mom and dad came home later and I'm pretty sure she must like, with her limited 3 year old language she expressed what happened and she clearly didn't have the words to explain it, but she was crying to her mother. She explained at the very least that he had showered us and that was a huge red flag to her mom. So that evening, that Sunday evening, I was like witnessing this crazy fight between her parents and my father and her mom. Like I just have this image of her mom holding her like in her arms and just screaming, crying at my, like crying and screaming at my father like, you showered my daughter. And I remember watching it like crying or I remember watching her crying and feeling so confused. Like, why is this so dramatic? Like, oh, like this is like a really serious thing. And it definitely confirmed to me, like my intuition that what was going on was really bad. And my father was, I will explain, I guess as the story goes on, but like very good at gaslighting, like very much. Like his presentation was like loving all American dad, like Christian man, whatever. And he was kind of treating her like, what the heck, you're crazy. And she's like swearing that they're never going to see each other again. And so that evening I really, I was Left with the feeling that I'm never going to see them again. And I know that after that, over time, like, he. This was his best friend's daughter. So he convinced him. Them, like, oh, like they're overreacting. Like, I was just giving the girls a bath, basically. So that had. That ended up blowing over. But yeah, so I took this ornament and that is the end of that chapter. But later on when I was home and I ended up. Because my sister wasn't there that day when I ended up seeing my sister, later that day when I ended up seeing my sister, like, we still had this, like, close bond. Almost like it was hard because it was never that, like, joyful, like, friendship that we once had. And it. But it really did turn almost into like, we are. Little did we know, like, we are almost like soldiers, like trauma bonding through a war zone. And like, we are the people. We. The only people we can really confide in. So later that night, I just remember being like, huddled, like, next to her and like, whispering to her, like, stephanie, Daddy did to me what he did to you. And Because I didn't have a word for it, but she. And this is like a really shocking part because she was such a brainiac, because I will say we had unlimited Internet. Like, well, not unlimited. Like, I think my mother let us, like, surf the Internet for like 30 minutes a day. Maybe because she was in. Like, she was in. I was 8, so I was in third grade. And that point, she was in fifth grade, so she was playing all these computer games. She was like, big on the Internet and. But I wasn't quite yet. And so because she spent this time on the Internet and she was a big reader and she was always trying to figure things out intellectually. That's how I attribute her figuring this out. That's what I attribute it to. But so I say, daddy did to me what he did to you. And then she goes, he raped you. And what's interesting now is that when I heard that word, I realized that must mean what I think it means, because it was actually my second time hearing it. And I didn't include this previously, but there was a time, maybe a few months after the first time I walked in and witnessed her rape, where she had a blow up, like a blow up fight with my father, when still at the time when I was six and she was eight or maybe I was seven. She was nine by that point because it was a little time after the first rape and my father had gotten a new girlfriend. So this woman he was dating. Her name's Emma. She would sometimes be around for those Sunday visitations. And at this visit, I look back and I really view this as a cry for help on my sister's part. But she and my father are just having this intense fight, and I was, like, scared. And I had already, because of the threats and because of the way my sister had, like, framed things. Like those weekends, I was very quiet. I just tried to, like, keep the peace and, like, get through the day. But my sister was having this really wild fight. And this was still during the period where, like, her, like, quote, psychiatric issues were coming up. And she. She was, like, screaming and crying, and she yelled at him, you raped me. While his girlfriend was in the room. And that was my. And I was about 7, and that was my first time ever hearing the word rape. And I very distinctly remember that because there's, like, a very unique sensation of hearing a word for the first time, especially at that age. Like, I didn't know the meaning, but there were all these context clues of, like, she's freaking out. They're acting appalled. That, like, where, like, her. His girlfriend had this crazy reaction. Like, where would you learn that word? Like, who's teaching you that? And because there was this really intense custody battle happening, he would spin all these narratives around. Like, your mother just hates me, and she's trying to turn you kids against me. Like, your mother's brainwashing you, or, like, your mother's planting these ideas to try to, like, sabotage me. So he definitely fed his girlfriend that narrative, and she was like, oh, my God, like, appalled. Like, where. Where would you, like, learn that from? Like, who's teaching you? Don't ever use that word again. Which is so up. Like, if a child. Like. Like, there's are so many layers of silencing that happens with, like, child molestation and child sexual abuse and the courage that it takes for her to finally, like, it was like, she just. After year after, like, probably, like, repeated abuse, like, and fear and silencing, she finally exploded with the truth and then immediately just got, like, pushed down. Like, how dare you accuse your father of something? Like, you can never say that again. Like, that's. That's horrible. He would never do that. Like, and so she was screaming and crying, and she started, like, screaming. Ask Kelsey. Kelsey saw it. And I'm in the corner of the room, just silent and terrified. Because at that point, like, I'm only seven. It had been maybe, like, either few months or a year since I saw what I saw, and since I was threatened into silence. And like, child memory is kind of weird at that point. Like, I. I wasn't fixated on it. And because I didn't know the word, like, that didn't immediately come to mind. And for me, it was just like a crazy, batshit fight, like, scene that I didn't know what to do. And it almost, at that age, it seemed like my sister, even though she was, like, defending herself, trying to speak the truth and crying out for help, maybe his girlfriend would be a safe adult. Like, for me, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know the word. And I just shook my head and I think I just wanted the fighting to stop, but I didn't understand. And then she, like, they were like, ask Kelsey. Like, did this happen? And I was just like, no. And that was the wrong thing because she started freaking out and was like, she's lying. And just like, flailing, kicking, screaming. Like, so anyway, that. That happened after I witnessed the first rape of her before I was ever raped. Like, a year before I was raped. So it's really tragic to look back and know that the truth did get out verbatim. Like, we were too scared. She was too scared to ever, like, tell our mom, of course, and anyone. But that came out one day. And I really do believe it's because she was on the Internet a lot and she probably, like, you know, we knew what Google was, and she probably searched to understand what was happening to her and found the word rape or even, like, she was reading the dictionary at that age. So, like, anyway, after. Flash forward to after I was raped that evening, I'm telling her, daddy did to me what he did to you. And then she says, he raped you. And then it all clicked because I remembered that's the other time I heard that word. And I still didn't know the meaning, but I had heard it twice now, and I pretty much knew what it meant. So then I just, like, nodded my head and she goes, with his penis. And then I was like, no, with his fingers. And she was like, that's not rape. Which, looking back, like, technically, by definition, it still. But as a kid, she didn't know. And then I was just like, oh, okay. But then she gets really, really, like, sad, visibly, and, like, really scared for me and starts saying, like, I'm so sorry. And at that point, like, I was very frozen, and I was like, oh. Like, this is serious. And she's telling me, like, I'll be there for you. Like, I promise I'll be there for you, it's gonna be okay, but you might start getting sick like me. And this is like a really weird part to tell because it was almost like she, as a child had this very deep intuition. Yeah.

Unknown Host (60:59)

Or like, understanding of what was happening.

Kelsey Zazanis (61:02)

She knew she was having these, quote, psychiatric symptoms because of the rape. Like, it was a cause and effect. Like. Yeah. It was so obvious to her. And so she's like, you might start getting sick like me, but then we can just go to doctor. So. And so her psychiatrist and like, they'll give you medication and you'll. They'll give you medicine and you'll be okay like me. So that kind of just assured me, like, okay, like, things are okay. And it was like, it's so sad, like, looking back, like, the two of us, like, handling all of this on our own, but it was like, will make it through. Like, our dad won't go to jail, our mom won't have to know about this. Becomes like a normal.

Unknown Host (61:46)

Like a normal in your life and experience in your story.

Kelsey Zazanis (61:51)

Yeah, exactly. So after that conversation with my sister, like, she was very supportive, but there was also almost this sense of, like, this is how we do things. Like, we're not going to really talk about this afterwards. Just like, almost like, she gave me a heads up, like, this might happen. You'll get meds, it'll be fine. But I got the sense that this wasn't going to be like an ongoing conversation. It was just a reality. It was just my new reality. And I remember going to sleep, like, alone in my room at my mother's house that evening. Like, my mother would, like, say goodnight to me and stuff. And that was the first realization of. I'm keeping, like, I can't tell her this. And I felt completely and utterly, really, like, alone. And I was raised Christian, so at that point, like, I, you know, I was going to Sunday school. And I really, like, was taught to pray to God, to turn to God with your problems. And I remember praying in my bedroom that night. And the interesting part was, like, I had prayed previously for sure. I had, like, tried, especially after I had witnessed what I saw with my sister. But this was like a, A different level. Like, it was because I think I was in such a low space emotionally and physically, like, being violated. I was definitely bleeding the next day. But that night, like. And before I tell this part, like, I do want to preface with, like, anyone listening. Like, I just really hope that no matter what, like, your spiritual beliefs are, that this part of the story can be, like, digested and integrated. Like, whether or not you want to believe in the possibility of this or not. Like, I hope that you can understand what happened in, like, whatever way fits your worldview without, like, casting this aside as impossible. I'll say that. But I prayed that night because I was hopeless. And I. What I really wanted was to turn back time. Like, there was that moment I described that was like, almost like this moment right before being raped. Like, I got a sense that it would change the. Change the trajectory of my life forever. And what I really wanted was to turn back time. Like, I want to erase this. I want to have a chance at a redo. Like, I didn't want this to ever happen. This episode is brought to you by JCPenney. Yes, JCPenney. And if you've been there recently, you.

Unknown Host (64:57)

Know it's the place to go. For jaw dropping looks at brag worthy prices. They've got something special for every style and budget.

Kelsey Zazanis (65:04)

Not to mention rewards and deals that make finding those hidden gems even sweeter. If you already shop JCPenney, you're already in on the secret. But if not, it's time to ask, wait, am I sleeping on JCPenney? Shop jcpenney.com yes, J.C. penney. And it's going to sound very strange, but in my total solitude that night, as a, as a desperate child praying to God, I got an answer. And I don't think I was talking to God, capital G, the God, but I was speaking to an angel, or angels, plural. Like, an angelic force was answering my prayers. And the presence was so it was there. Like I was. And I'll describe what it was, but like, the communication was clearer than anything I had felt in my life. And it was like, like I had been living in terror for years at that point. Like, my, because of what I saw with my sister. Like, there were just. I was very haunted by these scenes and I, I hadn't really known any sense of deep safety at that point in my life at all. And that night, like, it was like this loving embrace by this force that really promised me, like, everything is going to be okay. And I'll try to describe it in more detail, but basically I was praying and asking, like, can we turn? Can I turn back time? And it was like this angel told me, like, no, you can't, but you can forget. And I was, if I, I realized, like, okay, like, maybe that will work. Like, maybe forgetting is the answer. But I thought to myself, like, I don't want to forget forever. I want to remember eventually. Like, I Don't want a piece of my life gone forever. And this angelic force really reassured me that, like, you can forget for now and remember when you're ready. And like, I really don't know how to describe it. And that's why I give this preface of, like, please, like, I don't care if, like, you don't believe in this stuff, but, like, you know, my mother, mother doesn't believe in this stuff, but she. A lot of people would conceptualize it. Let's say you don't believe in angels, that this is some sort of, like, I'm accessing the depths of like, my own intuition or my higher knowing. Yeah. But to me, I will say it really felt like a higher power outside of me that knew far more than I ever could and that knew more about the, the span of my own life. And because I got this flash, it was like I was given a flash of the future and I saw myself like 10, like a decade later, like, living in a house with like, these other girls. And it was like I was being shown a flash of where I would be when I would finally remember after the repression. And it's going to sound weird, but it really did feel almost like I. I made a deal that night with an angel. And I, I'm. I was very scared to tell this part of the story. And I've never, I've actually never spoken openly about it because, like, I know that it's controversial to make these sorts of claims of, like, mystical experiences, but that was what made me feel okay. It was exactly what I needed after my first rape to, like, find the strength to, like, go on. And I feel really grateful that I had the sensibility to pray that night and to be warned about what was going to happen. Because a lot of survivors, it is so incredibly common to report, repress your memories and in fact, like, it happens automatically for a lot of people because it's necessary for survival because you're going to continue living with your rapist day in and day out, or in my case, seeing him once a week, like, living through that level of threat because after the first rape, it's a different kind of psychological torture when you know you're living through a constant, ever present threat of rape after that, because it could happen at any moment. So even in, like, you're having a, a good day, it's like any moment, you know what he's capable of. So my body after that never felt safe again. Any moment I'm with him, it's pure survival mode, like, kind of response. But yeah, basically because of those, like the extreme threat and like the conditions of childhood and like most children who are being abused, like, it's very hard to function without compartmentalizing it in some. Some way. Whether that is total memory repression or like some sort of like, compartmentalization or like putting it in a box or making sense of it. But a lot of people repress it. And my sister ended up repressing it as well. But. And then so did I. So after. And I'll explain, like, there were a few more instances of rape before, before it stopped. But like, then for the, for the next decade, I totally wiped it out. So anyway, that was a. And I'll circle back to the angel thing later. But, and I just want to say.

Unknown Host (70:57)

Say as well to you and, and just in my opinion, anybody that isn't open to any type of spiritual experience or mystical experience, in my opinion, just isn't in tune with themselves. I think that I know that there is a higher power, whatever, like you said, whatever that may be for you, whether it's God or religion or spirituality or anything in between, take it as you will, but it does not stop with humans 100%.

Kelsey Zazanis (71:28)

Yeah. And the fascinating thing too is like, I do think being raped as a child is such an extreme event that like, your world is very small as a kid and that is like a, that's a bomb that explodes. And it really, like, makes your world, for better or for worse, so much larger because, like, your brain has to like, instantly expand to like, try to like, scramble to make sense of it. Right. And so in that sense, I, I think that shaking up reality to such a degree, like, it. It can open people up to different realms of perception, I would say. And in that darkest moment of total surrender, there's an openness, especially as a child, to communicate with those kinds of things. I think adults are less likely to have mystical experiences because we've developed so many barriers. I guess you have to be open to that. Yeah. But after that I went about my life and I was in third grade, so I'm just like going through the motions and like clockwork, like my sister warned. Like, I really did start developing the same kind of anxious, nervous, fear based, quote, symptoms and behaviors which were really just like a child trying their best to like, continue with normal school life while, like, not having the resources to cope with child rape. But for me, what that manifested in was like labeled ocd. But really I, I think I just developed a lot of like, obsessive behaviors that had to do with, like, pretty classic, like, neatness and tidiness, but, like, to an obsessive degree. Like, certain things in my bedroom would have to be in an exact position, or, like, I couldn't go to bed or. But it was so. It was nothing, like, crazy, nothing dramatic. From my sister, I had learned basically that, like, I had seen her get bullied from these, like, really extreme behaviors. And I think I grew up really realizing that friendship and social support networks in school were all I had. So I put a lot of emphasis on acting normal. Like, that was very important to me. But these behaviors would come out in my room, and I don't know, it was in my eyes, just everything was out of my control. Children as it is, have very little control over their lives, and everything is routine set out for them. But this was my attempt at finding some sense of mental organization with these ritualistic. I'd count things. I'd. Whatever. So quickly I got labeled ocd. It was an interfering with, like, my school life and stuff like that. And I got sent to the psychiatrist, and I got put on medication as well. And it was like, looking back, it was definitely just, like, some low dose of some OCD medication. But that became a part of my life, and it became a part of the way I conceptualized my. Myself. Like, I learned to view myself as having a mental illness. And especially because of, you know, the mutual repression of my sister and I keeping these secrets and, like, mutually repressing them, and then both of us being funneled into psychiatry in the same way. The prevailing narrative was that, like, we have mental illness and this mental illness runs in the family somehow. So that was how I, like, learned to view myself. And, you know, I just. I coped and school was fine, and I made it through. And meanwhile, like I mentioned, my father's girlfriend, they continue dating, and I, like, start believing, oh, and then he gets engaged to her, and I start thinking, like, oh, maybe that that means, like, she's going to move in, and then I'll be safer because there's someone around watching him. And then the court case is continuing at that point, and he's really pushing for overnight visitations. And so then a deal. They strike a deal where, like, we do overnights, like, the whole weekend, Friday through Sunday, but it's only every other weekend. So we were like, okay, that's a little better. But us kids were, like, really terrified. Like, my mom was like, she didn't understand why we were, like, freaking out when the overnight started. But looking back, it's because, like, it that felt like a more extreme thing or riskier somehow. But he ended up getting engaged to Emma. The and then she became. They married and she became my stepmother. The overnight started and then he. She still like had a townhouse and he still had. He was still living in the basement. And sometimes we would like be over at her place because now they were like going back and forth a bit. And this brings me into like the next thing we were my second time being raped. Which again, it's gonna be very graphic, but it's hard to say why she wasn't home. But like at that point, like they're married, so. Or maybe this was right before they got married and they were just engaged, but they're basically sharing like houses. They trust each other. So we are at her townhouse and it's. She's out for whatever reason. Maybe she's working, maybe she's like running errands or doing something. But it's just me and my father and my sister at that house. And my father takes me and what's interesting to look back, like, I'm not at that point, at this point, I'm 9 and my sister is maybe 10 or 11 because she's a year and a half older. After the first rape, I really, I really tried to believe that it would be a one time thing. And as time went on because a year passed like I really hoped it would. But then this day in the townhouse, he takes me up into upstairs, into her bedroom, just me and him. And he tells me like that he wants to show me his love. And like again, I'm only nine and like I really did not have a choice. Like I could. He obviously was larger than me. I couldn't overpower him. There was no one to really turn to. I couldn't run out of. Out of the room. There was nowhere to run. And I feel like I don't even need to like explain. Explain. Anyone listening at this point probably understands why children can't defend themselves from. Right?

Unknown Host (79:14)

Absolutely.

Kelsey Zazanis (79:15)

But especially in the sick and twisted ways where that are like very specific to the context of incest. Like a lot of it really is framed through the lens of familial love. Or like the first one was like, that was not framed as sexual even. It was like he's doing this magic spell to turn me smart. And then this one was framed in terms of love. Like, I want to show you how much I love you. And so he, he takes his pants off and like sits us down on the bed and he has an Erection. And I'd never seen anything like that. I mean, except for the first time. But I think the first time, like, because there was, like, the flash of him trying to penetrate me with his penis, but then it was the fingers. Like, it was less of like a right up in my face type of thing, but this, like, he basically was telling me to, like, look at it and pointing to it and was, like, saying, this is how much daddy loves you. And I, like, was, like, scared. And I was scared because it was gross. Like, the nudity was gross. I didn't, like, I knew that was weird. And then the vibe was weird again. The intuition, like, I just. Darkness. Yeah, exactly. And. And this is how much daddy loves you. And then him, in this really sick way began, like, pleading with me, like, I want to show you how much I love you. Like, he was very manipulative in, like, almost like. Like this act of, like, I'm so genuine and, like, all I want is to show my daughter how much, much I love her. And then he raped me again. And he basically, like, I was very frozen. And, like, in a classic kind of, like, nervous system, science behind it. Like, fight, flight, freeze. Like, I could not fight back. There was no chance he overpowered me. The room was locked. There was nowhere to run to. I couldn't flee. So my only last ditch nervous system response was freezing. And that's what happened. I was, like, very similar to what I witnessed in my sister. My body totally limp, looking dead like a prey animal while he raped me. And the really, really crazy part about this was, you know, at this point, we're completely naked and he's penetrating me with his penis on top of me. And he is. And I'm looking up at this, like, very confused as I watch him start to moan and grunt. And I'm sorry if this is too graphic for anyone listening, but what feels important about sharing this is the fact that to conceptualize the mind and emotional world of a child. I'm staring up at my father raping me, grunting and moaning. And again, my perception of, like, this, of, of, like, how severe this violence is is still so skewed. Like, I still don't understand how violent it is because I'm listening to him moan and, like, all of these faces he's making and, like, and him looking, like, wild, like an animal. And my first thought is concern. My first thought, but not concern for me. Concern for him. I ask myself, am I hurting him? Because I can tell that he's doing something to me. And I think that I'm hurting him because of these sounds he's making, which is like, really, like. Yeah, it's just really hard to look back at that. And then, like, you know, it finally ends and he. And I watch him, like, have this insane, gross, like, orgasm response. And I feel relieved that it's finally over. And then he tells me, like, now I'm gonna make you feel good. And then all over again, he, like, and this is really gross to listen to, but, like, he orally rapes me. Then, like, he performs, like, non consensual, consensual oral rape. And. And I'm again, still completely frozen, lying back. And he's framing it as, like, now I'm going to make you feel good or show you how much I love you. And. And that's. Yeah, I mean, the layers of it are twisted and gross and then again, like clockwork. And I really hope I don't regret sharing this, but, like, it does feel important because, like, yeah, my body uncontrollably, like, responds. I start shaking and have this, like, explosion and it hurts. Like, I'm telling you that before you understand what an orgasm is and you have some sort of consensual orgasm and, like, surrender to pleasure, like, as an adult, that feels really good. But if it's something happening to you that you don't want, that you're not surrendering, surrendering to, like, it feels terrifying and it's way too much sensation. Like, at that age, it was terrifying. But a lot of people also do theorize that, like, the adrenaline, like the blood flow and the heightened adrenaline that comes with the fear response makes you more susceptible to or orgasming. And sometimes it is something the body can do to, like, cut an experience like that short, even. So, like, that's the way I conceptualize it. But afterwards, like, again, I asked what that was, and he was like, it means you liked it. And then in the aftermath of that rape, he told me, don't ever let another man do this to you until you're married. And that fucked with my brain because I was like, at that point, I still did not know that this was, like, a thing married people do. And so then I was kind of connecting the dots. But that scared me because I was like, oh, my God, why do married people do this? Like, why would anyone want to do this? This is horrible. Like, I never want to get married. And it was almost like, you have nothing to worry about because I don't want this to ever happen. Like, I don't know. It was just terrifying. But Looking back, I obviously know that it was like a sick, twisted, like, patriarchal possession type of situation. Like, he wanted to own us in a way. Like, we were not. Like, he was very threatened by us being like, autonomous humans. And, you know, maybe later I can like, theorize on the why behind, like, he was, why he was doing all of this. But I will say for a moment at least that, like, he was very, like, bitter and resentful about the fact that our mother chose to divorce him. And I think he wanted revenge, to put it very simply. But also, like, he was very, like, he wanted to punish her and like, destroy what he knew she loved most, which were her kids. But yeah, he said, don't ever let another man do this to you until you're married. And I was like, sickened. And this part feels really important. And I don't know, like, how I was brave enough to do this, but, like, after that second rape, I got the sense that this was going to become a regular reality, like it had been for my sister. And I knew I had to try my best to say something at least. And we're sitting on the side of the bed, like our, our clothes are back on. And I'm like, I'm really in awe of my younger self whenever I recall this. But I just said to him, daddy, I never want this to happen again. And that was my way of putting it because, like, you like, really looking back, like, I was still this kid with this, like, without understanding and with this loyalty and love towards my father. And like, you know, obviously now I know an appropriate response would have been like, rage and like serious repercussions. But at that point with like my blind loyalty towards him, the most I could do was almost just plead with him, like, I don't, like, I don't want this to ever happen again. And so I just said that straight up. And he. And I was surprised and I didn't understand, but he got so tense and so like started scrambling a little bit, like, repeating all this stuff about, like, you can't tell anyone. Like, if you tell anyone, like, there will be XYZ consequences. And he got visibly stressed out. And now I realize it's because, like, me saying that and like, proving that, like, I actually have a voice. I think it made him really afraid that I would tell other people. But he basically said, like, okay, just like, don't tell anyone. So, you know, it's. It sucks because like, the, the damage is really done already from like those already life threatening events. But I do feel grateful that Like, I saved myself from. Potentially saved myself a bit from more, like, repeated rapes, but.

Unknown Host (89:23)

So after you said that to him, he didn't do it again?

Kelsey Zazanis (89:26)

Well, he didn't do that exactly. But he did continue doing other things, which I'll explain. But, yeah, so that happened. Proud of myself for that. Then as time goes on, like, I never told my sister about that one. You know, she's getting older, and I think, like, he was probably realizing that the more we age, the more dangerous it was for him. Just in terms of, like, us telling or someone finding out. But my sister, like, beyond the rapes, like, he. I will say, just, like, his disposition as a person was very volatile. Like, very infantile in strange ways. Like, I don't really like to throw around the term narcissist because, like, I think the meaning has kind of become diluted. Like, everyone really uses it. But, like, in a very classical sense, like, he. His emotional capacity was so low and, like, so immature that really, like, it was all about him. And I don't think he was capable of empathy. I mean, very, like, psychopathic, sociopathic, or, like, narcissistic in classical terms, I would say. But there were always. I mean, he was just a freak. Like, he. He would, like, blow up over, like, tiny things. There would be, like, in. Over the years, like, my sister became more outspoken and almost, like, angry over the years and would get into these, like, really big fights with him at this point. So I was nine in the second rape, and she was getting older, like 11. She started middle school, and I think in sixth grade, she came out as a lesbian and told my father. And there was just this crazy fight, I remember, which is so weird to look back on. But he was, like, taunting her and basically saying, you're only a lesbian because of me. And I'm only sharing that because it's really weird to look back on because there was so much secrecy around this. But I think he. And this is why it feels really sick. And, like, I think he knew. Like. Like, so many abusers do. Like, they barely even try to hide it because they know how easy it is to deny it. So it's almost like, out in the open, like, in his, like, audacity to, like, be like, you're only a lesbian because of me. It was really implying, like, because of what I did to you. He was very, very homophobic and just, like, I don't know, very strange. But I remember that, like, blowout fight. She would sometimes, like, you know, try to fight back, curse at him. There were Times where I would watch him, like, grab her and, like, she'd be kicking and screaming, and, like, he'd, like, put his hand over her mouth and, like, drag her into the bathroom and with, like, a bar of soap, like, wash her mouth out with soap. So there were a lot of, like, really scary scenes like that that I witnessed that kind of just made me small. Like, my way of, like, surviving that situation was to just try to become as, like, small as possible and, like, just count down the hours. Any weekend I was there, my sister really did try fighting back for some amount of time. Meanwhile, like, he's very charming, like, with his fiance, and they end up getting married, she ends up getting pregnant. And, oh, I will also say that that time I was raped in her townhouse, literally in her bed when she wasn't home. That left me with a lot of guilt because, like, he's saying, don't ever let a man do this to you until you're married. And in my mind, I'm like, he's about to marry this woman. I'm like, isn't. Is he cheating on her with his own daughter? And there was a sense that it was my fault. But then I like the ways a child would rationalize it. Like, oh, but they're not married yet, technically, so it was just crazy. But they end up getting married, she gets pregnant, and I was just terrified. Like. Like, at this point, I'm 10 years old, and I just can't bear the thought of him and getting another daughter to abuse. And so I felt so relieved when we found out that he was going to be a boy and that really, like, yeah, I was excited, I guess, of, like, oh, okay, like, they're starting their own family. Like, maybe they can have something to focus on and he'll kind of chill out with this constant, like, the constant court case, legal battle thing. I think was definitely a way of, like, him not being able to let my mother go and, like, wanting to torture her, essentially. But, yeah, my. While my stepmother was pregnant, there was another evening where we were alone in her townhouse once again. And it was just me and my father in the room, in the kitchen. And out of nowhere, total shock. Shock to me. Out of nowhere, he, like, says, it's time for kissing lessons. And, like, I need to teach you how to kiss for your future husband. And at that point, like, I had already stood up for myself with the rape, but this was, like, a little more, like, it was weird for sure. And I was like, I don't think this is normal, but he framed it as something almost as like, oh, this might be something all parents do to their kids. Like, teaching your you how to ride a bike. Like all parents teach their kids how to kiss. So he just said, like, just stay still. Just stay still and I'll show you. And I'm frozen in the middle of her kitchen. And he just, like, what I understand this to be now is mouth rape. Because he just shoves his tongue in my mouth. Not a kiss at all. He just darts around, like, every surface. It was assault and disgusting because. And then he stops, like, after I don't know how long, and grins and tells me I'm a good kisser and just, like, goes off and does his thing like nothing ever happened. Like, it was sick, like, power play. It was disgusting. And I think he really got off on, like, that feeling of power for sure. But I was left feeling after that far more violated than the rapes because in a sense, there was, like, a way I could split off from my body and really dissociate in the other times. But this was like. Like, my face was the most. Like, when you think of who you are, you kind of think of your face. There's this, like, personal. It feels like the most personal part of me at the very least. And, like, I just felt gross. I wanted to crawl out of my skin. And also, I was really holding on to my first kiss. That was something as a little girl that was really hyped up. And I felt. I felt tainted and just really, like, defiled. Like, there was something really gross about me afterwards. And I really wished I could tell my mother, but things had gone on, like, so far. Like, I didn't know where to begin. There were these feelings that, like, maybe I would get blamed for it because at that point I was living with so much shame that it really had, like, almost become a part of me. Like, I'd started blaming myself, definitely. And I don't know, it was heartbreaking. I had such good friends as a child, but I felt. Felt like keeping secrets from them was really, like, you know, a roadblock in my relationships. But anyway, that was disturbing because at that point they were married. And that definitely left me with this feeling of, like, he's, quote, cheating. And then there was a blowout fight between them, him and his fiance, where she, like, they got into some crazy fight, and he actually, like, threw her phone and broke it. Sorry, not fiance. They were married at this point. He threw her phone and broke it. And she. They didn't talk for, like, a while, but she Was two weeks away from giving birth. And so she filed a police report and everything against him because he really dismissed. Displayed, like, abuse in these subtle ways towards everyone, like, even as partners. But she ended up, like, not going through with pressing charges because she was, like, two weeks away from giving birth. And she decided to just give it a chance after he, like, broke her phone and stuff. But anyway. Oh, I should actually share that. Like, I ended up seeing the little girl who was raped with me because, like I said, my dad really, like, glossed or, like, he let it blow over the thing that happened. And they kept up their relationship. And throughout all this time, like, every few months, she would come and visit. And so we kept up our relationship. And then she gives birth, and I get a little brother who really did make the weekends somewhat better because, like, I had this sweet other little kid to be around. And then one. I will just share that. One evening sometimes my father got, like, Tuesday night dinner visitations. And one evening, like, and my sister had some sort of, like, extracurricular, like soccer or something. My father picks her up, or he picks me up from school and randomly drives me to this high school swim practice in an indoor pool. And he tells me, we're tracking down your sister. And it's not my other sister. It's a sister from a previous marriage that he had abandoned when she was 8 years old. So he was married once before my mother, and they had a kid you didn't know. Up until that moment, I heard, like, very vague talk about her, but I didn't really understand the story. Anytime I asked, he shut it down. And then out of nowhere, he's like, we're gonna go find your sister. Even though he was not her legal dad anymore, he gave her up, like, five. No, no, no. Like, at that point, like, seven years prior, it had been seven years since I'd seen her. And he's like, we're gonna go track her down. Because he was googling her and confirmed that he was on the. That she was on this high school swim team. And he found out when the swim practice was, and he decided that he would show up at her swim practice with me. And so I just remember that being, like, a really, really cryptic episode, because all I dreamt about at that point was finally getting away from my father. It was like, that girl had what I wanted. Like, he had, like, given her up. He left her life. But then there was this sense that, like, there's no escaping because he's a stalker. He's gonna, like, he can't let anything go. So for whatever divine intervention, she actually wasn't there that day. And then we, like, moved on. But that ties into something else, which I'll explain later. But after that, shortly after, like, okay, Actually, a few years pass, and by this time, I'm 13 years old and on a weekend visitation, the little girl that I'll refer to her as M, she's there this weekend. Her family's visiting. She's eight years old at this point. My older sister's there, too. My little bro. My new little brother's there. I'll just explain quickly. This was the last weekend I ever saw him in my life because there was some sort of, like, he would always go into these, like, screaming matches. He'd throw, like, these weird tantrums. And I can't even remember what happened, but we were, like, out to ice cream with the other family. We get back in the car, he is just really, like, angry about something. And at that point, my sister, who used to be the one who would, like, stand up and fight back, she was, like, really, I think burnt out, exhausted, terrified, and just kind of, like, done. Like, yeah, docile. Just wouldn't say a thing. And I was in my. I was 13, so I think I. I was feeling emboldened, and I was in my, like, fighting back. And so in whatever argument this was, I started, like, standing up. It wasn't even standing up for myself. He was just yelling. And what I told him was, like, stop yelling. You're stressing out the baby who was, like, in the car seat. And he flipped out and was like, don't teach me or don't try to tell me how to parent. And it became this. He started, like, kind of grabbing me, and I started. Started trying to, like, flail and get away from him. And it was, like, a really intense fight happening, like, in the car. My stepmom was driving, and him and I were in the back seat. My sister was in passenger. And then he yells to, like, pull over the car. And he. We pull over the car on the side of, like, this rural highway in Virginia, and he, like, yanks me out of the car in. In broad daylight, public, on the side of the highway, and pulls down my pants and underwear and starts, like, spanking me, like, uncontrollably, like, just in the middle of everything. And it was shocking. And I was frozen. And my sister, who has, like, a cell phone at this point, jumps out of the car and immediately, immediately starts trying to film it happening. Because at this point, like, we are desperate to get away from him. We know there's this court case happening. We're familiar with, like, the legal logistics, and we're like, maybe if we film she was doing the really, like, the right thing. Like, maybe I can finally get some evidence of abuse to free us. And my stepmother, like, starts trying to, like, wrestle the phone out of her grip as she's trying to film it. And they're. They're, like, fighting over the phone while he's spanking me until she, like, rips the phone out of her and, like, the phone goes flying. Her phone breaks, which is really crazy to look back at because, like, just three years prior, this woman, my stepmother, had almost left my father after he broke her phone. And then she basically became his accomplice and was just, like, they had a kid together. She was just standing by as, like, this happened. And he definitely manipulated her in, like, some really hardcore ways and, like, told her, like, you know, she had witnessed the very first cry for help when my sister screamed like, you raped me.

Unknown Host (105:54)

Yeah.

Kelsey Zazanis (105:55)

And I think she really, like, believed his lies about, like, oh, their mother's just, like, brainwashing them. So anyway, after that, like, immediate bruising, like, really immediate bruising on my arm from him, like, tugging me out and all over my butt. And, like, it was like the. In that moment, I realized I would be free because I really. All these years, like, I. I learned that, like. Like, the abuse had to leave bruises. If anyone was ever gonna, like, take it seriously, like, that was your proof.

Unknown Host (106:33)

Which, yeah, is so sad because, you know, like, you just were saying in your mind. It was like, if you can't see it, then it's not happening. Technically, is, like, what people would assume. And that's kind of what you were showed because, you know, when it was spoken out, it was ignored.

Kelsey Zazanis (106:50)

Exactly. Yeah. And so then, like, right in the aftermath, it was so weird. We started, like, going on this hike together. He, like. He started, like, taking us on this little walk up a mountain in Virginia. And immediately it was like. Immediately he knew what was up and, like, what the consequences of this would be, because he started, like, negotiating with us. Like, if you. If I don't ever need to pay child support again, I'll let you guys go. Basically, like, I think he knew he was. He would get his parental rights taken away. So he started kind of like, he. Again, like, very narcissistic. Like, he didn't give a shit about us. It was kind of like we were tools to punish our mom. He cared a lot about money, and it really Was like, he was trying to sell us, which was crazy. But that evening, like, oh, God, it, like, I. We got back to my mom's house, like, really late. I tell her what happens. We have to end up going to the emergency room. And then, then I have to file a police report and all these things. And I take a few days off school, but then I go back to school like nothing happened, basically. And meanwhile, like, the police report is filed. Like, the court case between them has been going on all this time, and they both have had lawyers, so they end up coming to some agreement, like, some mitigation outside of, like, court, where they just agreed, like, he. He won't have to keep paying child support, but he's going to give up his legal rights as our father. Like, and in order for that to be allowed, legally, the kids have to, like, have someone else to adopt. So my stepfather ended up adopting us and becoming our new legal dad. And at that point, our last name changed. So it was Kelsey Owen, William Owen being my rapist former dad. And then my stepfather adopted me. My last name changed to Kelsey Zazanis. And.

Unknown Host (109:10)

And at this point, your mom and your stepdad still didn't know about the rape. They just knew about that incident of the physical abuse.

Kelsey Zazanis (109:17)

Exactly.

Unknown Host (109:18)

Okay. And I have one other question that I meant to ask before. When. And you might not know the answer, but do you think when he was recording you and the little girl, do you think he was keeping that for himself or do you think that he was sharing that with anyone else?

Kelsey Zazanis (109:36)

So there's really no way for me to know. I'm really not sure. But I wouldn't be surprised if he, like, you know, was doing it for some sort of personal trophy type thing.

Unknown Host (109:48)

Right.

Kelsey Zazanis (109:48)

But I. I also wouldn't be surprised if he was distributing it, because child pornography is like a multibillion dollar.

Unknown Host (109:56)

I was going to say, especially when you mentioned, like, how, like, the money aspect, it's like.

Kelsey Zazanis (110:00)

Right.

Unknown Host (110:00)

Yeah. What do you. What do you really know of what he was doing exactly?

Kelsey Zazanis (110:04)

And he. To me, it's like, it better to.

Unknown Host (110:06)

Assume the worst with someone like that.

Kelsey Zazanis (110:08)

Yeah, for sure. But to this day, like, I don't know if I have those. If those are circulating. Like, there's really no way. But yeah, after that, he got his parental rights taken away. I never saw him again. And I just, like, even to this day, to this day, never saw him again.

Unknown Host (110:28)

And you were 13?

Kelsey Zazanis (110:29)

I was 13, yeah. But there was, like, one final goodbye, which was really weird. It was like, for him to Agree to this. He was like, I just need to be able to say bye to them one more time. It was like. I don't know, it was gross. But, like, I had to kind of go along with it because I was getting my freedom in exchange for that. So then I started high school with a new last name, and I didn't go to therapy. I never talked about it. It was just kind of, like, in the past. And I tried to, like, build, like, a good new life for myself. I'll try to tell the rest, like, fairly quickly, but I instantly, instantly became anorexic and, like, my entire, like, year 14, age 14. I, like, I developed, like, a lot of disordered eating habits. And just, like. Like, ultimately, the way I view it, like, similar to the OCD symptoms, it was like, my way of coping and my way of trying to gain some. Some sort of control to make life feel manageable after everything I'd been through. And on a deeper level, like, my body had been invaded so many times that I learned early on that I had no bodily autonomy. Like, that my body didn't belong to me. And there were these, like, in at least, like, controlling what I ate and what went into my body. Like, it was literally, like, my way of trying to reclaim my body. Like, before my. I had no control over what literally went in my body. Like, in terms of him entering me. And so controlling what foods I ate and what I put into my body, I think really was a response to that. So meanwhile, through all of this, I'm still, like, really thinking of myself as, like, oh, I'm really anxious. I have ocd. Like, I'm seeking, like, psychiatric help, and I get really depressed. And so I just. I just think I have depression and all of that. But, like, like, I was trying to be a normal teenager, and at this point, I was repressing everything. Like, everything was wiped from my memory, and that was really my way of functioning. And I wish I could, like, really describe how it worked, but it was really almost like, snap of the fingers. And it's gone. Like, after that rape, it's gone. After the kissing lessons, mouth rape, it. I just. The next day, it's gone. Like, it was that level of, like, compartmentalization. And, you know, by the time I'm, like, 14, 15, I get my first boyfriend and my first kiss, quote, unquote, which, like, I had repressed the previous thing. So I really, like, wanted to believe that I was having these new experiences. And eventually, like, my high school boyfriend. And I, like, it's spring Break. And I have him over at my house, and we're, like, making out and start kind of, like, fooling around. And we didn't have sex or anything like that. But, like, I think. I mean, he fingered me. And I was just very uncomfortable with, like, that kind of sexuality, I would say. But, like. And this is a problem that continued as it does for, like, a lot of survivors, but on a. On a even more extreme level, I had no feeling in my genitals. Like, I was actually completely numb. And after the abuse, like, as a child, I never looked there. I never touched there. It was like I was pretending my private parts did not exist. I wanted nothing to do with it. And that boyfriend was, like, the first time I was, like, kind of reacquainted with the fact that that's, like, something I have and. But I didn't feel anything. Like, it was like. I truly believe my body, like, had after those, like, really traumatic experiences, like, shut down all sensation. Because then when I ended up going to college eventually and, like, continued exploring in that way, like, I was completely numb, sensationalist, all these things. And I went to college. I moved all the way to California because I really wanted to, like, get as far away from my past as possible. And, yeah, I found a lot of great friends. Like, I. I was really trying my best to, like, start this new life for myself. But, like, I was haunted by, like, really severe, quote, symptoms of, like, anxiety, depression, like, what I now conceptualize it after really learning about nervous system, science and stuff like that. Like, my body, it was. It was taking immense amounts of survival energy to keep everything repressed. And, like, these symptoms were really, like, communication from my inner self, like, trying to make certain truths known. And eventually, after my first year of college, I became very depressed and honestly reached a point where, like, there were moments where I wanted to die, which was something I had never thought about seriously. And. Oh, shoot, I forgot an important part of the story. My sister, who had threatened me with suicide when I was, like, six. And after I'd witnessed the rape, throughout her whole psychiatric journey, she actually, like, tried killing herself multiple times throughout childhood. Like, the first time was, like, when she was 10 years old, she, like, came out of the school bathroom and basically, like, told one of the teachers that she tried to hang herself in the bathroom and then got hospitalized. So that explains why on a lot of weekends, I ended up being alone with my father because, like, there were multiple suicide attempts where she would end up, like, in the children's hospital. So anyway, I was just Very. That was a different level of, like, crazy for me because the original threat was, like, if you tell anyone, I'm gonna kill myself. And I kept her secret, thinking it would be saving her life. But then she spent all of childhood, like, still trying to kill herself anyway, which was like, really. It was just really terror terrifying for me. But anyway, by the time I was in college then, for the first time in my life, like, I started feeling these really intense, like, almost suicidal ideation. And I. I was con. Concerned for myself. And I think that kind of pushed me into, like, almost a state of surrender because I had been in this whole psychiatry thing. And at that point, I was also starting to question the validity of this framework for viewing, like, men. Like, the whole mental illness framework and the dsm. Like, I was really starting to question, like, how, like, valid those even were. And so at that point, I think I just, like, I. I was ready to, like, kind of know the truth. And like clockwork, like, it was like divine timing. Like, I started getting flashbacks after a decade of repression of the rape. It started with. I was going about my day and I got this, like, scene of, like, a shower. Like a shower head, like, water rushing down, and this little girl. And at first I thought the little girl was me because she was another little blonde girl. But as the scene started, like, coming into focus, I realized it was the. I was getting flashbacks of the original rape with the little girl. And I remembered who she was because after the last time I saw her at 13, at that point, it had been six years, and I totally forgot who she was because I just didn't think of my past at all anymore. And so that started coming back to me. Gradually, the memories clarified, and with each flashback came, like, a physical flashback. I felt it. It wasn't just intellectual. Like, I'm remembering this. It was like my whole body, I could feel. I could feel the rape in my genitalia, which also makes sense to. As to why I was really numbing out that part for so long. But basically, I call my mom. Like, I tell her what's happening. Like, for the first time, I tell her the truth. And she believes me immediately. But she doesn't seem, like, very surprised. And I also tell her what I remember about my sister being raped and.

Unknown Host (120:12)

And how old were you?

Kelsey Zazanis (120:14)

I was 19. Okay, 19. Yeah.

Unknown Host (120:17)

Now, and you might get to this point when you. I know that you mentioned that your mom didn't seem surprised. Did she end up saying that she ever had weird experiences with your dad? Like, her personally?

Kelsey Zazanis (120:29)

She was Never raped by him, but he did hit her a few times, which was why they ended up divorcing.

Unknown Host (120:35)

Okay.

Kelsey Zazanis (120:38)

But yeah, she, like, I think she wasn't surprised because it. It gave her a. Like, finally gave her an answer as to, like, why us kids were that level terrified. Like, she always thought, like, oh, it's just because he's mean, he has a temper.

Unknown Host (120:53)

Like an answer to everything.

Kelsey Zazanis (120:56)

And so at that point, I'm living in California. I don't have a car or. Or anything like that. She says, like, we. We need to get you a trauma therapist. So I end up like, making an appointment with the therapist, like, the only therapist walking distance from my house. Before I get into that, I will say when my memories were coming back, it was like, almost. I mean, I was completely sober, but this was like, psychedelic level of like. Like expansion. Like the way I had spent my whole life hiding this from myself. And like, living in this, like, with my memory all fragmented, like, it really felt like a wholeness. I had been kind of returned to me. And like, my faith in life was like, entirely restored. It was like a 180, like, before that I was on the verge of, like, losing all hope. And then suddenly, like, when my memories came back, what also came back was the. My recollection of the original kind of prayer or communication with angels that kind of precipitated all of the original repression and forgetting. And at that time, I. When I was 8, I had that vision flash to the future of like, this is where you'll be when you're ready to remember. And it was like, there I was when I was 19. I was living in this really, like, perfect house with three other women roommates, all so supportive. It was like the perfect conditions to just like, feel really safe as I, like, I was ready to face all of this. And so I can. I can't describe, like, this memory retrieval process as anything short of, like, a spiritual awakening, because immediately I felt like. And my spirituality has evolved since then, but I felt this almost like confirmation that, like, God is real because I really felt like I was saved in these miraculous ways. But, you know, again, to anyone listening, like, this can be explained in a lot of ways, but that, like, the very day that I remembered that my flashbacks came back and I remembered who m. The little girl who was raped with me was. I go up to my bedroom in that house where I live when I'm 19, and I see on the side of my bed in, like, the little. A little dish that my roommate shared because we share A bedroom. I see this little ornament and it had like the ornament that I originally took because I never wanted to forget her. Immediately after I remembered who she was, the ornament reappeared. And I hadn't seen it in over 10 years, but it has like her name written on it. It has the year that she was born.

Unknown Host (124:32)

So you found this ornament in my.

Kelsey Zazanis (124:34)

House in California, thousands of miles away from where I grew up. Immediately. The day my memories returned.

Unknown Host (124:42)

And was it in your belongings or the one of your roommates? Belongings.

Kelsey Zazanis (124:46)

It was in this dish we shared between our beds where we just put random things and it just appeared and I freaked out because the timing was like very miraculous. It was the instant I remembered her, the ornament came back to me. I freaked out. And I asked my roommate, Huh?

Unknown Host (125:07)

I said, it gives me chills.

Kelsey Zazanis (125:08)

It's crazy, I know. And so I asked my roommate, like, I freaked out. I was like, have you ever seen this? Like, why is this here? And she was like, no, I've never seen this. I asked all my roommates, I was like, what the heck? I even like texted the girl who lived there right before me and I was like, have you ever seen this? Because like, again, like, I, I, of course I was having this kind of spiritual awakening where I had renewed faith. But this was something unexplainable because I had not seen this since I was a child thousands of miles away. So I was like, did this just magically appear? Like, I wanted some sort of logical answer and I didn't find one. And I even talked to my, I even told my mom about this because I was like, this is a miracle. Like it almost felt like some sort of telekinesis, like a magically moving object. And my mother, like, it was very, she's very rational and she's not really spiritual at all. So she was like, well, Kelsey, like sometimes you used to like walk in your sleep as a kid. Maybe you like packed this in your sleep, you know, like, maybe there was some chance that I was secret. Even as I was repressing my memories. I was secretly.

Unknown Host (126:28)

But even if that was, even if that was the case, it's still the fact that it came to you and you noticed it again at that time of like remembering all of these things.

Kelsey Zazanis (126:40)

Yeah, it was just, it's clear that.

Unknown Host (126:43)

No matter what that was the timing for everything to kind of click for you.

Kelsey Zazanis (126:47)

Yeah. And so I was amazed. And it was like my 8 year old self had. It wasn't like, I was like like, when I originally stole, didn't even feel like my choice. It was just, like, something I knew I had to do to remember her. And it was like, this was the physical object. I needed to, like, stay tethered to the reality that, like, this is real, this happened. Like, this is a physical piece of evidence. Because I really, you know, in situations like that, you don't have any evidence. So immediately when I. Like, when I remembered her, the first thing I wanted to do was reach out or find her, make sure she was okay. So I searched for her on Facebook and I found a profile. And I wasn't going to do anything crazy. I wasn't going to tell her, like, for her to be abused at three years old, it was also likely that she had no memory of it. But I just wanted to make sure she was doing okay. And so I messaged her on Facebook saying, like, hi, Em, this is Kelsey. I'm not sure if you remember me, but, like, I just wanted to see how you're doing. And just, like, maybe a day or two later, she got back to me very quickly. She was like, oh, my God, Kelsey, like, I'm so happy to hear from you. I actually have been wanting to, like, find you for so long. Last year, I was having dreams about you every single night. And so I asked my dad to help me find you, and we found your Instagram. So I had been following you. I made this post about you, which is like, this is the crazy part, because I was shocked. And I look on Instagram, she. She tells me what her handle is, and then I see that two years before, she had tagged me in a photo of her and me as kids with the caption that was like, dear Kelsey, this is the kid who looks. Looked up to you back then and still looks up to you today. Like, basically just sharing this, like, love. It was so sweet. But it was also kind of jarring because it had been years and she was still holding on to this memory of me. Her subconscious was really, like, drilling in, like, the importance of, like, me as a figure in her life, where, to the extent that she was having a recurring dream about me and then tracked me down and then wanted to get my attention by, like, tagging me in this post, and somehow I missed it. But when she did tell me her handle or her Instagram handle, I was like, oh, my God. Because I saw that there was this random kid that followed me on Instagram over the years who was always liking my photos, and somehow I just never clicked on her. But, like, I recognized It. But somehow, like, that was shielded from me, and I. But I.

Unknown Host (130:01)

Really ready for it.

Kelsey Zazanis (130:03)

Yeah. And so we ended up chatting a bit over Facebook for a little. And it was actually really hard for me because she was just so sweet, and she really wanted a connection, and I did, too. But, like, it was really hard for me to be, like, hiding this reality from her. And so I. I tracked down her mother's phone number, and I tried to. I called her, and in the most sensitive way possible, I told her what happened and what I remembered. And her mother did not want to believe it. And her, you know, like, I guess her daughter was fine enough to, like, not be freaked out, even though I. I know that there were some concerning things in her behavior as a kid, but her mom didn't want to believe it. And she said to me on the phone, like, you were on pills back then, like, referring to the psychiatry thing. And, like, maybe there was some chance that that meant I was crazy and unreliable, even though the reality is I got put on those pills because I had witnessed rape and was raped. So it was really ironic and really sad. But after that point, I was kind of like, I did all I could do.

Unknown Host (131:31)

So. Did the mom say something to the daughter?

Kelsey Zazanis (131:34)

No, never did.

Unknown Host (131:35)

And you never did.

Kelsey Zazanis (131:36)

And I never did. But she still follows me on Instagram. And, I mean, I've reached a point where I'm very outspoken about this, but I've never told her. And have you ever had this, like.

Unknown Host (131:51)

Like, how you said that when you called the mom, you kind of approached it in a very sensitive way? Have you ever thought about or wanted to kind of message her and just be like, I want to talk to you, like, but not to bring up, you know, anything, I guess, which it's, like, kind of impossible not to, but, like, I don't want to put a wrench in your life, but, you know, or you just don't feel ready to do that yet with her?

Kelsey Zazanis (132:16)

Well, I tried. I mean, the way she shut me down made it seem very much so. Like, she wasn't open to it.

Unknown Host (132:21)

This was the mom or the. Or Em.

Kelsey Zazanis (132:23)

Oh, the mom. Oh, you're asking if I have. Would consider talking to the girl. So in terms of, like, whether I would ever tell her. So the reason I reached out to her mother was because at that point, she was only 14, so she was underage. And I definitely would not want. Have wanted to, like, tell her that. Yeah. But I. I wanted to, like, be responsible and make sure her mother knew. But right now, she's like, 23. And it's definitely something that crosses my mind. Like, what's the responsible thing to do? So I definitely want to be, like, at least a figure that she can turn to in the future if she needs me. But that kind of brings me to the fact that as I started grappling with the memory retrieval and stuff like that, I found a trauma therapist. And at this point, I had never met anyone who was sexually abused. I. I really didn't know that was a thing. Like, I didn't. I had no real exposure to incest or child rape to really, like. Like, when my memories came back, it almost felt like, am I the only person this has ever happened to?

Unknown Host (133:39)

Like, I felt, like, alone.

Kelsey Zazanis (133:41)

Yeah. I didn't know how common it was, but a wild coincidence or synchronicity was that when I finally saw this trauma therapist, I. I show up to her office. I'm like, she's this very old lady, and her office is full of these little, like, religious quotes. And I was kind of like, huh? But I. I felt this, like, intense, like, deja vu. Almost like the feeling of being at the, like, right place at the right time as I walk in. And. And I just tell. I was really nervous, but I told her everything of what was happening, my memories coming back. And she says to me, my father did the same to me, and I didn't remember until I was in my 40s. Wow. Yeah. And so she said, like, I used to work as a pharmacist, and then once I remembered, I went back to school to become a therapist. And so that kind of was the beginning of my entry into, like, this world of really diving deep and learning about incest. Like, the reality of incest and the reality of memory, repression and just how common it was. But this woman, like, it really felt like a miracle that, like, the first therapist I called walking distance from my house. Like, right. It was. She was the person I needed because I needed someone. Like, it's one thing to, like, try to support someone through that, but it's another. It's a different level being with someone who experienced it because they understand, truly understand.

Unknown Host (135:24)

It's not just a. From an educational standpoint. It's like the education plus the true experience that I think exactly makes it so much more relatable.

Kelsey Zazanis (135:35)

Yeah. And so, basically, I'll try to wrap it up, because we don't have that much more time. But, like, that became a wild journey. She told me, basically, like, people remember when they're ready to remember. And at this point, my former Sister was still heavily repressing all of it, and I wish I had more time to go into details, but she ended up transitioning around the same time into.

Unknown Host (136:03)

A man, and around the same time that you kind of get started.

Kelsey Zazanis (136:07)

Began remembering everything. So my sister was undergoing transition and is now my brother named Noah. So I will. It won't even be that complicated, but I'm going to refer to him as Noah now. Um, so my. I go home, like, on the next break from school and visit my mom and him. And my mom kind of. Kind of fills him in, like, keep. Puts my mom, like, brings him in the loop of, like, what's happening? But I kind of warned my mom based on what my therapist told me. I warned her, like, people remember when they're ready. And my therapist told me, like, don't try to tell your brother. Like, wait for him to remember in his own time. And so I just told my mom that, like, what happened to my brother, but I'm not going to, like, tell him. And my mom told him, like, Kelsey's remembering being raped by your dad, but nothing about you were raped too. So that period when I'm home, my brother is screaming in his sleep every single night, waking up screaming. And he tells my mom that he's having nightmares of being raped by her dad. But his level of repression and. And denial and dissociation is, like, so deep that he's just explaining it like, oh, oh, my God. Like, poor Kelsey. I just feel so bad for Kelsey that I'm having these dreams without really, like, wanting to confront that. Like, these aren't just nightmares. These are actual flashbacks that he's having. But my mother was so concerned for him that she kind of asks him one night or kind of tells him one night, like, suggests, like, Kelsey says, this might have happened to you too, and he freaks out, he flips out. He, likes, screamed at me. It was, like, really insane. Really crazy.

Unknown Host (138:16)

And it's sad, too, because I don't think we even have a. And maybe, you know, professionals have a better understanding of this, but even the age difference between you guys of it happening, you know, I feel like, could kind of play a role or a part in, like, the memories or kind of. You know what I mean?

Kelsey Zazanis (138:32)

Well, I should clarify. It happened to him when he was 8 and I. And I was 6. Witnesses. And then it happened to me when I was 8. So it did. It was like my father chose 8 years old to begin for both of us.

Unknown Host (138:42)

Okay.

Kelsey Zazanis (138:43)

If that makes sense. Yeah, but that. That was really intense. Like, My brother, I should say, like, throughout all of his instability in life, like, he treated me very chaotically, very poorly, which really, like, hurt after, like, I thought we were kind of in this solidarity together, but I had good friends in California, and I spent the next portion of my life really diving deep into the technicalities of trauma healing. And I became like. Like, when my memories came back, all of the psychiatric framework that I used to use to. To conceptual. To conceptualize my suffering, it vanished. Because suddenly each and every behavior and each detail of my life made perfect sense, given what I had gone through. And so whatever, quote, mental illness I thought I had, like, was gone. Retrieving my memories, like, really erased any thought I had that I might ever have had a mental illness. And really, like, all of everything I had gone through was like, a brilliant survival response from my body to survive, like, unbelievable circumstances. That was how I viewed, like, everything my brother had gone through as well. And so I got off all medication, like, responsibly and gradually. And that really left me with, I mean, the levels of rage in like. Like peeling back, the layers of the damage done, like, once I was in adulthood, because I won't go into it, but, like, the trauma, the effect on me physically, like, and on my sex life and on my relationships. And, like, I've been deeply haunted by this. And it's been 10 years now since I. Since my memories came back. But I. It's been a journey, and I've done a great job, in my opinion, like, really divesting from that psychiatric framework and reclaiming, like, my story. So I got off the medication. I got really into, like, critiquing psychiatry, because honestly, I do think in a lot of cases, especially when they're medicating children, like, it can be used as a tool of repression that really serves to, like, perpetuate these cycles of abuse. When you individualize the. When you individualize the problem and ins. And ask these questions of, like, what's wrong with you? Like, asking a child, like, what's wrong with this child? When you should really be asking what happened to you. But anyway, the rest of the 10 years, it's been wild. My brother, it's very telling. He's never, not once, has he asked me about this. He knows that I've been, like, dealing with this all on my own for the last decade, and he hasn't asked me about it once. So I really did not have any support. But I began writing prolifically, like, on substacks, and it'll. We'll do a link but my substack is cancel me.substack.com and I began writing, like, in detail about all of my experiences and gaining a lot of readers. And over the years, just being so open about the story, it has been shocking. Like, I've met hundreds of other people with nearly, like, identical experiences. And, I mean, it's just absolutely wild how common it is. And the statistic is 1 in 4, and a lot of people do not want to believe that. But in reality, like, the silencing and the secrecy is so thick that I think people don't talk about it.

Unknown Host (142:52)

It makes people more uncomfortable to have to hear it and work through it and deal with it. And I think that's why people rather just be like, oh, no, that's not true. Basically, they, like. Because it's sick. It's. It's obviously sick. It's stomach turning. Everything else in between that, you know, you could list off, but it's easier for people to tune it out. And I think, like you said, that's why so many people have this. It's like, it's such a taboo subject, which, like, obviously, so it's horrible, it's disgusting, but it needs to be spoken about because, like you said, the more people that know about it and talk about it, the more children can heal from it, you know?

Kelsey Zazanis (143:40)

Yeah. And there are so many, like, different factors that really, like, uphold this on a societal level because it's, like, way beyond individual. Like, it's almost just the. There are so many structural factors that like, prevent us from really grappling with this. But to try to wrap it up, I will say that writing and speaking out about it and finding other people who were really grateful for that kind of. For the way I was speaking about really helped. It's been quite a journey to try to recover from. From this. But the writing. The writing, like, the getting the truth out was so important and, like I said, started gaining a following for the writing. And this year specifically, it started taking off. And I started writing this book, which is this book right here. And it's a short book of 10 essays. And I was planning on, like, publishing it because I started mostly. The writing was mostly on substack. And lastly, about six months ago, out of nowhere. And at this point, I haven't seen my father in 15 years. And out of nowhere. And I don't talk to my mother much because, like, there are. Which I haven't gone into, but there are a lot of issues on her end, and essentially I just haven't felt a Lot of familial support or protection. I felt very alone in this process. But I received a call from her, from my mom, out of nowhere this last year, and she was basically telling me that my father's sister, my aunt, called her just like that same morning, and she was like, hey. So I need to tell you what your aunt just told me yesterday. Bill, my rapist, William Owen. Bill showed up at your aunt's house in Tennessee, unexpected, uninvited. They are not even on good terms. He's just very impulsive and chaotic, and he showed up at her house to announce that he has been. Basically, it's come to my attention that Kelsey has been writing about me, and I've read Kelsey's writing. So basically, I haven't seen the man in 15 years. But along the same lines of him stalking his former child, he has been Googling me in the same way, stalking me online. He's been reading all of my writing about him. And so as my writing started taking off and as I began writing more, he shows up to his sister's house and says, like, I've been reading Kelsey's writing and these horrible allegations against me. And he's incredibly manipulative. So he knows that he can't deny it completely. So the angle that he chose to take was like, I don't doubt that it happened to her, but it must have been her stepfather. So he blamed it on my stepfather, which was very strategic because actually, throughout childhood, as he was raping us, he was also saying things like, is your stepfather touching you? So there's a lot to unpack there. But it was very terrifying because there was this realization of, like, he's watching me still. And I felt really violated, too, because that's, like, a very. It's like, a very personal and intimate thing of mine, but.

Unknown Host (147:39)

Right. It's a way for you to heal and connect with other victims.

Kelsey Zazanis (147:42)

Yeah. And it's also kind of showed that he's still trying to have this sort of ownership and even, like, intimidate me through a grapevine, basically. Like, I'm not sure how premeditated it was, but it basically. Basically sent me the message of, like, I'm watching you.

Unknown Host (147:59)

Question. Do you have a relationship with his.

Kelsey Zazanis (148:02)

With your.

Unknown Host (148:02)

With your other brother? His.

Kelsey Zazanis (148:04)

No. So, unfortunately, like, when he got his parental rights taken away when I was 13, it meant I could never see my younger brother again.

Unknown Host (148:13)

Is he still with that woman?

Kelsey Zazanis (148:14)

Yeah, exactly. So, like, to this day, they're still together.

Unknown Host (148:18)

Wow. Okay.

Kelsey Zazanis (148:19)

Yeah. So he grew up an only child. With them. And so I. Last time I saw him he was 3 years old. And I similarly to which is just crazy the way these patterns repeat. But the three year old girl who I witnessed who ended up having dreams about me repeatedly, like after I stopped seeing my brother, I would always dream about him too. Like just really worrying and then, yeah, similar to that girl. Like, I definitely hope to be there for him in the future and share the truth with him if he is receptive. But I just really, really hope that like the damage isn't too far. Like, I really hope that he, you know, finds a way to individuate and like find freedom from that family dysfunction.

Unknown Host (149:03)

Like I think too, like you mentioned and I honestly didn't think about when asking you if you have or would want to reach out and kind of, you know, talk to m now but like what your therapist said of kind of like letting people come to those memories in their own time, you know, and come to you if they decide to. It takes the responsibility and the pressure off of you of trying to like almost heal everybody and give everybody these answers, but more so to know like if and when they come to that realization on their own, you're there and you're open to help. If that's what they want.

Kelsey Zazanis (149:43)

Yeah. And I have like been burdened by feeling like, okay, I have the weight of the world on my shoulders, almost as like the keeper of the mem, like the memory keeper, like the person who's holding this. And I, like, I do feel that burden heavily but. And I think that has informed a lot of why I've made myself so outspoken on this topic, like publicly. Because even. Cause that signals that like I'm a person, like I'm a public figure who talks about child rape and incest, which means, like this is. It signals to everyone I'm willing to talk about this. Whereas like, if I was silent about it, like my brother, that's not an invitation for them to confide in me. So I think that's part of why I chose that.

Unknown Host (150:28)

Do you and your brother have a relationship today or not really.

Kelsey Zazanis (150:32)

So I'd love to get into that because after I found out about my father stalking me and reading my writing, I was in the process of writing this book and it really, it really like emboldened me like to just like go through with it. So this book, if anyone wants it, Kelsey Zazanis.com called Father's Daughter and it felt really important for me to just put it in print like forever. Like, because after all these years. He's still denying it. And that, that was like, deeply enraging to me because of how much effort it took to face the truth at all and then to still face this person.

Unknown Host (151:20)

It took from you for, you know, a time of your life. And I think that there is something amazing and healing and kind of taking that power back. But there is a portion of your life that it does take, you know, and for sure causes these just stunts in different areas. You know, until you're. You come to that kind of full circle moment of healing. You know, it's kind of like you're just living in this like haze.

Kelsey Zazanis (151:44)

Yeah. So as for my brother before, because it's interesting, like, there is a lot of sensitivity there because I have to recognize that he is living in a totally different reality from me. Like, not only is he repressing all of our childhood memories, but like, he's changed his name, he's changed his gender. He started an entirely new life, like, with this entirely new sense of self that has nothing to do with like his former life as a little girl being raped. So it's so far removed.

Unknown Host (152:15)

Right.

Kelsey Zazanis (152:16)

He's like, distanced himself as far as. As much as possible. And so does he talk to your dad? Not at all.

Unknown Host (152:23)

Okay, got it.

Kelsey Zazanis (152:24)

But they do have a strange. I don't know. I understand. I do believe he was raped potentially many times. He had a different disposition than me. I don't know if he ever tried to stand up for himself. He shouldn't have had to. But all of these things, I just knew I was writing about very sensitive things. But in order to heal, I felt like secrets make you sick. It's like a cliche. But it's true because I don't have time to go into it. But we both, my brother and I started facing really intense chronic illness. And it's really that physical toll of the rape. And it stores in the body. Yeah. And living through survival in survival mode. Chronic freeze response all those years. We both have hypermobile Ehlers Danlos syndrome, which I'm currently doing a lot of research around. And like, if anyone goes to my socials, that will explain it more. Yeah.

Unknown Host (153:24)

And I'll link everything too as well.

Kelsey Zazanis (153:26)

Great. Yeah. Because there's like a very high correlation between that and surviving child sexual abuse. But anyway, yeah, it's very sensitive. The stuff I was writing about and especially. So, yeah, I wanted to put the truth out because I. I really was like, secrets make. Made me sick and I need to just let the full truth out if I want to heal. And so the writing was very detailed. And it did, as I spoke about in this interview, like I'm writing in the past tense. My brother was once my sister. I have to write about him as my sister. And even though I want to respect people's privacy, what I saw, what I witnessed was part of my story. And so I needed to offload that. And so I did write about him being raped. And before I published the book, I wanted to reach out to him. And I also. After years of healing from what my father did this past year, I started feeling really a lot of weight, like, kind of being kept up at night by my brother, former sister's original threat of suicide. Because it's going to sound weird, but before I was ever raped, really, the original trauma was a. What I saw, but more so being threatened into silence by him. Which is sad because a lot of people say trauma is actually not the violence that happens to you. It's the absence of an empathetic witness. Because children who are abused, but then afterwards have someone to confide in and tell the truth to, to and support them through the aftermath end up not being anywhere near as traumatized as those children that keep secrets. And so the original trauma really was being threatened into secrecy. And so he was a child, he was a little girl who didn't know any better at that time and who was threatened by my father. So the threat was passed down. And all that being said, my sister was not to blame by any means, but the damage was really thick. And after a decade of, like, shielding my brother from the truth, like, out of knowing that he's fragile and has a lot of issues to begin with, like, I never tried to push it, and especially after seeing his reaction, but I reached out and I was just like, hey, our father has been stalking me and reading my writing, and I need to tell you this truth that I. I've never shared. But, like, I witnessed your rape. And afterwards you told me this, and after 10 years, like, I just felt like I. I really can't keep this to myself any longer. And, like, I need to let out the truth completely. Like, just give it a shot at least. And he never responded to my messages, which was telling. So then I just went ahead and published the book, and I waited six months, and then I checked in again, and I said, hey, it's been six months and you haven't replied. And that's all I said. And he. He just. He freaked out. He lost it. He got. He cursed me out and went ballistic. And he denied It. Which is a lot levels of just. It's really sad because he's told my mother before, like. Like responding to what she told him. Like, Kelsey says it might have happened to you. Over the years, I ended up hearing that he's told her, like, yeah, I think it might have happened to me. I just don't remember yet. So I thought he was kind of coming to terms with realizing that, like, this was probably a reality. But when it came to directly addressing this threat of suicide as a kid, something about that, I think, just. I think almost brought him back to being that terrified child, like, living with so much shame and freaking out, and he just didn't want to believe that was possible, so he just denied it, which to me, logically, is really frustrating because he has no memories of childhood. They're all repressed. But then he has the nerve to, like, say, that didn't happen. Yeah, but it's like, you. And I was like, no, you just don't remember it happening. Similarly to how you don't remember anything else still.

Unknown Host (158:25)

And unfortunately, you know, it's like, even though that is your. Your family and someone that you were, you know, you saw it happen to and was around when it happened to you, it's not your responsibility, you know, to, like, heal everyone else. And it's sad. And it's like, we want to. Especially when you are, you know, an empathetic person, and you are somebody that. I mean, like, especially right now in your life, your goal is to help other victims, you know, and to heal yourself and help, you know, be that kind of, like, support for others. And I think naturally, like, you. You want to help your brother, you know, and. But unfortunately, like, we've been talking about, if he's not ready, it's like you kind of. It's like you. You let that person know you're there, and then you just back away. And I. It's like, you. I feel like the best thing to do is just believe in your heart that one day, if and when he comes to that realization, you'll be the person that he goes to.

Kelsey Zazanis (159:27)

I know. And I. I, like, wish I could. Like, over the years, I've had so much grace and hope in that way. But I guess this really stung because after all these years, like, it took a lot to, like, reclaim my voice. And the truth of this, like, all of this is just pure truth. And to be able to tell the truth was, like, a lot. And to have someone questioning the validity of the memory is really, like, disturbing, especially when, like, in my Eyes, you know, my father might have raped me either way. But like, my biggest regret in life is like, you know, that moment where I was threatened into silence. Like, if it had, if that hadn't happened, like, I might have trusted my gut and gone straight to my mom and told her like, what I saw. And then maybe my life would have been totally different. But like, in terms of the spirituality and those things, like, I try to stay tethered to like this sense of things unfolding. Like, I don't want to say as they should, because really none of this should have happened, but like their own, like, right. Time, you could say, yeah, I hope so. And I mean, it's complicated. It kind of disturbs me because my brother is like, technically my, My only witness. My. My other only witness was a three year old. The only other person who's endured the same thing. And it's taken me many years, but I want to finally press charges. And in Maryland there's no statute of limitations, so I can really press criminal or civil charges at any point. But like, and I plan to, but my biggest fear, it's really scary. I think it would destroy me if he was found not guilty.

Unknown Host (161:29)

Right?

Kelsey Zazanis (161:29)

If, like, I don't ever want to see his face again in my life. But like, but if you're going to.

Unknown Host (161:35)

You want it to be, yeah, where he's serving the time he should. And the thing is, is once again, I think that you'll know and feel within yourself when you're ready to open that chapter. You know what I mean? Like, right now it might be like this, I don't know, because it is scary, you know, And I think at any point it'll be scary. But I feel like you'll come to a point where you're like, yeah, it's scary, but I rather try than not. And I think it's too. It's just like you said, it's giving yourself that, that grace and that time of like one step at a time. Like right now we're in our healing. Let's deal with this. And then whether it's in six months, one year, five years, you know, whenever you're in that next chapter and that next journey, that's when you open that door and you take that step. But there's no designated time on healing and on how you should go about doing things, you know, it's all in your own path and your own journey and what feels right within you, you know, And I think being able to speak about something so traumatic and so dark and I Mean, like you said, the word is gross. You know, like, being able to recount these things that have happened to you and, you know, people around you that you cared so much about it that that's not an easy thing to do. You know, that takes a lot. It's a lot of weight. It's very heavy. So being able to do that and write about it and if you're in a place right now where you are healing yourself piece by piece, little by little, that's all that matters.

Kelsey Zazanis (163:03)

Thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate it. Yeah. And I guess to close up, I mean, there's so much more I wish I could say, but really, I. I should just say, like, I've written a lot about it, so I'd love. If anyone. I should say. Yeah. Like, do you.

Unknown Host (163:17)

And you said you make. You have. You do have little videos, right, of just different portions or. No. Or is it all written?

Kelsey Zazanis (163:25)

No. I've been on a few podcasts before, so if anyone. My Instagram is making friends online, but.

Unknown Host (163:31)

But you've written about.

Kelsey Zazanis (163:33)

I've written a lot. And the book contains a lot of the essays. Father's Daughter is the book name. Yeah. It's also available on Amazon, but also my website. Kelsey, send me.

Unknown Host (163:44)

Send me all of the links, and I'm going to put everything in the description, so if people kind of want, you know, more information, more details, whatever, they can reach out directly to you and get your book and anything else. But I'm so grateful, obviously, that you came here and were willing to share these parts of your life.

Kelsey Zazanis (164:03)

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for. I know this was long. I like, it felt good to put it all out in one place, and I really appreciate it. Of course. Yeah. I guess to anyone listening, just, like, I know so personally, so intimately what that terror and aloneness is like as a child and, like, how relieving it is to be at an age where you can actually, like, consume media in this way that, like, allows you to make sense of these things. And to anyone listening who doesn't relate, like, it's an honor that you're educating yourself on this stuff. And also, just, like, thank you for using your platform in this way because, like, as a survivor, incest is really a topic in child rape, child sexual abuse. It is not. Not covered on mainstream platforms in any way. And yours has really, like, somehow become, like, one of the only platforms really highlighting this. So I really appreciate it.

Unknown Host (165:08)

Of course, of course. And I think, too, you know, something I want to mention is even if somebody can't directly relate I think that it goes back to just the knowledge and understanding and the education aspect of instead of trying to just ask what's wrong with a child about like kind of going back to what you said with well what happened? Did something happen? It's like that extra questioning that I think is so necessary because of reasons like this and the absolute worst case you know nothing or best case I should say nothing happened you know what I mean? And maybe a child has something you know mentally going on or like there's a behavioral thing but like at least you took that extra step to see if something happened to a child you know.

Kelsey Zazanis (165:55)

Yeah because like again like the statistics are striking like it's really it's really.

Unknown Host (166:01)

Disturbing yeah so it happens so often and it's just like you said it's just not spoken about at all but.

Kelsey Zazanis (166:09)

Thank you thank you so much it.

Unknown Host (166:11)

Was a pleasure yes no seriously you did incredible.