Dr. Daniel Hai on Healing Beyond Labels: Connection Over Diagnosis

Summary

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Podcast Summary: We're Out of Time

Episode: Dr. Daniel Hai on Healing Beyond Labels: Connection Over Diagnosis

Host: Richard Taite
Guest: Dr. Daniel Hai, Clinical Neuropsychologist
Date: March 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into what it means to truly heal from trauma, addiction, and mental health struggles—beyond just labeling conditions or relying strictly on diagnoses. Host Richard Taite and guest Dr. Daniel Hai discuss the necessity of real-world connection, functional outcomes, and the limits of both the current mental health system and neuroscience itself. With candid personal stories and lively debate, their conversation breaks down why attachment, humility, and genuine therapeutic alliance are more essential than rigid models or labels.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Makes Dr. Hai’s Approach Different?

• Holistic, Real-Life Focus:

  • Uses neurocognitive therapy blending neuropsychology, mindfulness, attachment theory, and functional medicine.
  • Prioritizes clinical history and real-life functioning over test results.
  • Goes beyond the office: attends classes, and even nightclubs or strip clubs, to provide exposure therapy in the client’s real environment.
  • "There’s no stone that doesn’t get unturned in the office. Holistically speaking. I like to look functionally at the root." (04:13)

• Alliance Over Modality:

  • The therapeutic relationship is more important than any particular method.
  • “You need to have an alliance… the emotionally corrective experience of actually trusting someone that's here to help you… is way more important than I’m doing DBT, CBT right now.” (03:29)

• Respect for Roots and Wisdom Traditions:

  • Psychological ideas have often borrowed from spiritual traditions.
  • "Most research does dictate that the therapeutic alliance, meaning the attachment that you have with a person determines how well you do." (02:57)

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2. The Limits of Testing and Diagnosis

• Diagnosis Does Not Equal Destiny:
  • Diagnostic labels are limited and historically biased.
  • “It was only a few versions ago that women having a job was a disorder… it’s like a bunch of white dudes get together in a room and say, here’s what everything is. No… Diagnostics are meant to guide clinicians. But what if our obsession with diagnosis is what's stopping us from getting better?” (32:12)
• Functionality Over Labels:
  • Dr. Hai asks, ‘How are you functioning?’
  • Shares a formative story about an autistic child and the power of attachment over labels (32:54).

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3. Therapy Beyond the Office: True Exposure

• Dr. Hai practices “exposure and response prevention” by meeting patients where they are—even at strip clubs, if that’s required for functional exposure and therapy.
  • "I will meet you where you're at int your life... I've attended classes, I've... helped autistic adults date." (05:37)

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4. Trauma, Recovery, and the Brain

• Mirror Work for Practitioners:

  • Many clinicians “haven’t done their personal work” or understand trauma.
  • "I've been in therapy since I was 4. I'm still in therapy. Being aware of myself, knowing my limitations is important." (08:04)

• Neuroplasticity & Hope:

  • Sometimes the brain heals (“rewires through neuroplasticity”), sometimes it compensates, and sometimes it adapts with limits.
  • “Some of the brain actually can rewire… some call it a higher power. Some things we just don’t know.” (13:41)

• Pre-Morbid Intelligence:

  • Dr. Hai breaks down the (limited) idea of testing "pre-morbid intelligence" versus lived experience:
    • “I do think being able to determine someone's pre morbid intelligence is a grandiose task… you can't really tell what someone’s intelligence is just through testing.” (13:04)

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5. Recovery, Maintenance, and Transcendence

• Recovery as an Ongoing Process:

  • Taite distinguishes between "in recovery" and "recovered," challenging the disease model.
  • Dr. Hai stresses maintenance—no arrival, just continual choices:
    • "You have to fight for maintenance. I think that's something that you have to hold on to." (16:59)
    • “You have to work at it… You don't just get somewhere and now you're fine.” (21:55)

• Is Recovery Ever Complete? Debate:

  • Taite: “I think that there is a point where there is no struggle…many people have transcended addiction.” (19:39)
  • Dr. Hai: “I do think you need to maintain it.” (20:48)

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6. Critique of the Mental Health Industry

• Functional Medicine & Therapy:
  • Both agree: “Quality is what matters—most therapists barely understand trauma, let alone the brain.” (07:55)
• Collaboration, Not God Complexes:
  • Dr. Hai advocates for teamwork—not being the “only chef” or undermining colleagues, but he will remove clients from bad teams if needed (25:10).
  • “The client is my boss… I want an egalitarian approach where the client learns to trust themselves.” (25:30 & 25:49)

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7. Building Recovery: The Pillars

• Support Systems Are Key:

  • First thing assessed and built for every client—sometimes personally accompanying clients to meetings.
  • "I go to 12 step meetings with them at times when they're scared to go... I try to make a collaborative approach." (27:02)

• Self-Respect and Realistic Goals:

  • Sometimes, Dr. Hai must “tell people their limitations,” whether that’s unlikely career dreams or unhealthy relationship patterns (15:01 & 29:12).

• Real Connection Over Codependency:

  • “Be happy before, so you can be happier and whole together with another person. Don't expect the other person to make you happy.” (27:52)

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8. Social, Emotional, and Spiritual Intelligence

• Listening, Vulnerability, and Love Languages:
  • Success in relationships and work requires seeing past yourself, learning to listen, and being vulnerable (29:12).
  • “If you want to connect with someone else… listen… that's how you find out what someone else's love language is.” (29:12)

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9. Modern Neuroscience and Misconceptions

• Over-reliance on TikTok “Neurofacts”:
  • Neurodiversity is often misunderstood; not all neurodivergent people are “gifted.” (31:12)
  • “Diagnostics, to me, they don't mean a lot as compared to functionality.” (31:59)
• Not Everything is Science—Spirituality Matters:
  • Dr. Hai’s controversial view:
    • "I believe that intuition is greater than you know. I do believe in a higher power. I don't believe that everything is science." (35:41)
    • “There are things some people are able to do that some people aren't... there are cases where spirituality overrides [science].” (35:41)

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10. The Future of Mental Health

• Progress & Skepticism:
  • Dr. Hai: “I think in some ways we are just dressing up old ideas… I am not happy necessarily with the advancements.” (37:00)
  • Taite counters that with optimism about advances, especially with AI.
    • “Science is always 15 years ahead of the practice… AI will assist clinicians and make things better.” (37:58)
• Dr. Hai Uses AI:
  • “It checks my grammar… I want to get an idea out. I want it polished and organized. It helps me do that.” (39:07)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Diagnostic History:

  • “It was only a few versions ago that women having a job was a disorder… It's like a bunch of white dudes get together in a room and say, here's what everything is.” — Dr. Daniel Hai (32:12)

• On The Therapeutic Alliance:

  • “Unless you have the trust of the patient, you have nothing because you're not getting anything.” — Richard Taite (03:22)

• On Recovery:

  • "You have to fight for maintenance... you have to hold on to it." — Dr. Hai (16:59)

• On Self-Awareness in Practitioners:

  • “I think a lot of people haven't done their work... I think having your own therapist as a therapist is crucial." — Dr. Hai (08:04)

• On Transcendence and Maintenance:

  • "You don’t just get somewhere and now you’re fine… if you don't maintain [your shape or routine], it's going to go away.” — Dr. Hai (21:55, 22:21)

• On Human Value Beyond Labels:

  • “Diagnostics, to me, they don’t mean a lot as compared to functionality.” — Dr. Hai (31:59)

• On the Power of Attachment:

  • Story of the nonverbal child who spoke for the first time:
    • “That moment, like that, made my…I was like, I'm addicted. I want to do this for the rest of my life.” — Dr. Hai (34:25)

• On Hope:

  • “What you’re experiencing right now is temporary. It feels like forever… Don’t give up.” — Dr. Hai (40:05)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:40 | Dr. Hai breaks down neurocognitive therapy | | 03:29 | Importance of therapeutic alliance over therapy modality | | 05:18 | Dr. Hai on exposure therapy—going outside traditional therapy settings | | 08:04 | Vital self-awareness for practitioners | | 09:07 | Markers and limitations of neurological testing, pre-morbid intelligence explained | | 13:41 | Brain healing, neuroplasticity, and limits of recovery | | 16:14 | Recovery vs. being recovered—debate on semantics and maintenance | | 20:48 | Routines and maintenance in long-term recovery | | 25:30 | Dr. Hai on advocacy for clients and challenges with the treatment system | | 27:02 | Building support systems, accompanying clients to 12-step meetings | | 29:12 | Teaching relationship skills, grandiosity, and learning to listen | | 32:12 | Critique of diagnostic labels; story about working with nonverbal child | | 35:41 | Dr. Hai on intuition, spirituality, and science | | 37:00 | Future of mental health, AI, and limits of advancement | | 39:07 | Dr. Hai uses AI for grammar and organization | | 40:05 | Dr. Hai’s closing message of hope for listeners |

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Final Message

Dr. Daniel Hai (40:05):
"What you're experiencing right now is temporary. It feels like forever… don't give up."

Richard Taite (Closing):
"Your brain isn’t broken. It's adaptive. It's protecting you in ways you might not even see. But the same system that kept you alive can also keep you stuck. And that's where the work begins. We're not talking about coping anymore. We're talking about transcendence."

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Tone:
Raw, truthful, sometimes humorous and always compassionate—punctuated by debates, real-life stories, and a refusal to settle for easy answers.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone ready to look past labels and see mental health—and hope—in a new light.

Transcript

[A]

It was only a few versions ago that women having a job was a disorder. This is.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

No, I'm not shutting up.

[B]

I missed it.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. And okay. It's like a bunch of white dudes get together in a room and say, here is what everything is. No.

[C]

If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers.

[B]

Today's guest is one of those rare people who actually understands what's going on under the hood, not just emotionally, but neurologically. Dr. Daniel High is a clinical neuropsychologist, founder of the Neuro Assessment center, the guy people go to when everything else has failed. Dr. Daniel High. How you doing?

[A]

I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Well, thanks for joining us today. Where'd you come from, Encino?

[A]

Yes, that's where my office is. I really wanted to prep myself for you. But it is actually really true that I do see the cases where people don't seem like they have any hope left. Good.

[B]

Well, let's get right into it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You call what you do neurocognitive therapy. Break that down for the audience in plain English. What are you actually doing to people's brains?

[A]

Neurocognitive therapy is holistic in a sense that it works both on what's happening neurologically and emotionally. So basically, you'll come in, I'll do an assessment on you, then you'll do actual treatment, and we'll do cognitive rehab. And then after that, I show you and I graph your results in terms of the improvements that you've actually had. So instead of actually just coming in and saying we're going to talk about our feelings, it's a little deeper than that. And I like to show evidence demonstrating the results through the testing, through the testing and through real life. So it's ecological, which means my lens is based on what's happening in real life, not on tests. I'm also not traditional in that sense, or that clinical information of what's happening in a client's life is way more important to me than what's happening on the test.

[B]

Okay, let's move on. You're blending neuropsychology, mindfulness, attachment therapy. Sounds like a lot of science. And soul. How do you keep that from turning into mumbo jumbo?

[A]

I think that we as psychologists have stolen a lot of people's philosophies, like Buddhist philosophy, Judaic values, and all those things. And I think I really like to get to the roots of it. And most research does dictate that the therapeutic alliance, meaning the attachment that you have with a person determines how well you do. So I could throw five different therapies at you. It doesn't mean anything. No.

[B]

Unless you have the trust of the patient, you have nothing because you're not getting anything.

[A]

And that's what's the most important thing for me, is that there needs to be an alliance. That emotionally corrective experience of actually trusting someone that's here to help you and actually getting to know you and pushing you is way more important than I'm doing dbt, CBT right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they see that in my office, and I think that's more important. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But it's true. Holistic treatment is what it is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, if you're going to put all those things together. Okay. You're treating the whole person. Right. Got it. You talk about treating the whole person. There it is. What does that mean? Like, what happens in your office, that doesn't happen anywhere else?

[A]

So I look at things of all scopes, whether it's actually your blood test results, nutrition. I look at your emotional results. I talk to you about your family. There's no stone that doesn't get unturned in the office. Holistically speaking. I like to look functionally at the root.

[B]

Cause I only know one doctor who does all of those things, including working out with the patients. Right. Teaching them how to sail on the surfboard. Right. Whatever that's called. Check all their medications to see how they're interacting. Looking at the blood work, all the. I know one doctor named Kenneth Spiel Vogel, and he works for us. You're the only other doctor that does that type of thorough evaluation and treatment.

[A]

I think that guy is particularly special. I'm not as special as that guy. But what does make me special is I do do exposure therapy, and I will go to people's houses and explain Exposure therapy, erp Exposure and response prevention therapy.

[B]

Oh, that really helped everybody.

[A]

Okay. It just means that I'll meet you where you're at in your life. I will go outside of the office. You're just going to sit in my office? I'm going to go outside of the office. I'm going to meet you where you are in your daily life. Whether that's. I've attended classes, I've Prolonged. Long time. Helped with an adult community integration program. Meaning I helped autistic adults date.

[B]

So basically, exposure therapy is if you've got an agoraphobic, someone who's afraid to leave the house, then you'll make certain that you take them out of the house to give them exposure to the outside in little increments, so that at some point they're like, oh, this isn't

[A]

so bad, in a way. I will meet them in classes. If they're having a hard time doing school, I will meet them in nightclubs. I'll meet them where I need to meet them to make sure that.

[B]

Have you ever met anybody at a strip bar?

[A]

I have. Really? I do things that are uncomfortable and

[B]

you get a lap dance.

[A]

No, I did not.

[B]

You were in a strip bar and didn't get a lap dance?

[A]

Absolutely. You know, that was an exposure therapy for me. I have germ.

[B]

You have germaphobia. And you ended up. And you ended up in the strip club. I did. Yeah. That's. That's bad. Can you imagine Howie Mandel in a strip club?

[A]

Unfortunately, I can.

[B]

No disrespect to Howie Mandel.

[A]

Yeah. No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I put myself in uncomfortable positions. They put themselves in uncomfortable positions. Why shouldn't I?

[B]

There it is. Good for you. You've got people out there saying functional medicine is B.S. what do you have to say to that?

[A]

I think it can be B.S. i think anything can be B.S. as we talked about earlier, it's the trust that you have with your provider that determines the symptom. Relief.

[B]

Well, let me. Let me just go in there because I am a huge believer in functional medicine. Good. I think what you mean is, and you do functional medicine, so it can't be BS What's BS about? It is there are so few psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists that actually have the ability to help anybody. So when they try to do something. Okay. It's not top notch.

[A]

Yes. It's quality. Determined is really what you're. Yeah.

[B]

Let's be real. Most therapists barely understand trauma, let alone the brain. What do you see them missing every single day?

[A]

I think a lot of people haven't done their work like your own personal work, and they don't look in the mirror. I think having your own therapist as a therapist is crucial. I think consulting with other people is crucial. I've been in therapy since I was 4. I'm still in therapy. Being aware of myself, knowing my limitations, and understanding what I can't do is important. And I think that that's really the differentiation there is really knowing those differences and also understanding that maybe you're projecting your trauma on someone else. Maybe this time you don't know. Maybe you need to look a little deeper into what you can know. And maybe you shouldn't write someone off right away. Or maybe that person just doesn't want to help themselves. And maybe you just need to accept that

[B]

when someone's been through hell, trauma or addiction, relapse, whatever, what's the first thing you look for? Neurologically? That's broken.

[A]

I think neurologically speaking, I am looking for not just executive functioning, meaning, for instance, there are certain tests that see how often a person is obsessively, compulsively, like not willing to let something go. They get stuck in a thought patterns called preservation, and they can't let things go. And sometimes that's a thing that a lot of people mislook and don't spend enough time looking at. It's not just working memory, it's not that at all. Sometimes they really can't let something go. And that I think is a big part of me looking at how is this affecting you and what's the difference between how you were in terms of premorbid intelligence? What I mean by that is that someone reads, and through their reading I can tell what their intelligence was before any injury, before any addiction. It's kind of like reading has shown to show with people at least that are English speaking, what your pre morbid intelligence is. So if your pre morbid intelligence doesn't match your actual testing, describe to the

[B]

viewers what pre morbid intelligence is.

[A]

Pre morbid intelligence is what your intelligence should have, have been, would have been if you didn't get through experiencing the trauma that you went through.

[B]

So it was basically before you had your drug use or your trauma, where you were right beforehand.

[A]

Exactly. And what your capacity was, what you're capable of. And now why doesn't it match?

[B]

No, no, no, no. How the hell can it tell what your capacity was? That's horseshit, and I'll tell you why. Okay? That's complete horseshit. I couldn't read when I got out of high school. I mean, I could read, but I couldn't understand what I was reading. And if I read out loud, I couldn't understand any of it because I was too focused on the actual reading to deal with the comprehension.

[A]

It's. It's not reading comprehension, it's reading out loud. Okay, Reading out loud, Reading out loud.

[B]

I still sucked at it. I could barely read. I taught myself to read at 18, with the sports page, with studs like Jim Murray and Scott Osler and J A Adande. And that's how I taught myself how to read, because that was pretty much the only thing I was interested in at 18 right now. I'm clearly not that. I mean, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed for sure. I may not even be the smartest man in any room. I'm in. That's fine. Okay. But you know, I am the chairman of a healthcare corporation, so I'm not completely devoid of talent. And if you would have checked pre drug use, what my capacity would have been. I'd be homeless.

[A]

Yes, I think that you're. You have to use the proper norms and the clinical history is at play. If someone has like, reading issues, you certainly wouldn't use that to determine their capacity, so to speak.

[B]

Excellent. What would you use?

[A]

You'd use a clinical interview. You'd use. Basically, some people use the toefl. The TOEFL is a test that basically asks you about your childhood. It asks you about where you grew up, it asks you about what your parents did or didn't. And I'll be candid about.

[B]

That's good, by the way.

[A]

Yeah. The limitations of neuropsychology. Call that again the toffel. The toffel test, the free milk, Are

[B]

they only available from like October through November?

[A]

They're available all the time. But I do love white truffle. But no, it. It's not as good as black truffle.

[B]

Even truffle.

[A]

Not to me, but I'm a snob.

[B]

Right. Okay, go on.

[A]

I do think that being able to determine someone's pre morbid intelligence is a grandiose task. I think that you can't really tell what someone really does or what their intelligence is just through testing. Which is why I go out of my way to look at advanced norms and look at people's families, histories and things of that nature as well. And I do know the limitations within that, definitely.

[B]

Nice, nice. Okay, that horseshit thing might have been a little harsh.

[A]

No, Chill. Okay, push me.

[B]

Can the brain actually heal or are we just learning to live with the damage better?

[A]

Both. Some of the brain actually can rewire through the neuroplasticity. Some say it's through neuroplasticity. Some call it a higher power. Some things we just don't know. But yes, I do believe that there are ways for the brain to not just heal, but get better. And there's also ways for it to just stay stunted for where it's at and it's case by case dependent. I certainly think that there are some people who just. You have to accept that that's where they're at and keep them and stabilize

[B]

them there so that they don't atrophy.

[A]

Harm reduction. It's all about understanding what someone's limitations are ethically. Absolutely.

[B]

Okay. What does ethics have to do with it?

[A]

Well, a lot of people who are per se neurodiverse on the spectrum, all these other things, they think that there should be functioning at a certain level. Sometimes they're pushing these people beyond their comfort. They have all this weight on their shoulders. They're supposed to perform a certain way. That doesn't help them. Ethically really means what do they want?

[B]

They want to perform better.

[A]

They get to make their own decisions. Right. And sometimes they do want to perform better. And sometimes you have to tell them where they can and where they can't. And if they do want to perform better.

[B]

God, you tell people that they can't do something?

[A]

Sometimes I do, yes.

[B]

Like give me an example.

[A]

Maybe someone wants to become a basketball player and they're 5:1 and you're struggling with grandiosity of those.

[B]

Do you?

[A]

I do.

[B]

You have a guy who came in at five one who wanted to be a professional basketball player.

[A]

I worked at treatment settings and I had someone really just think that that's what they wanted.

[B]

He was trolling you. Give me another example. You were in a treatment setting. This guy's in rehab and he's not trolling you. Go on.

[A]

No, I really truly believed he was all about basketball. That's all he talked about. I don't know if he was trolling me. I. I really believe that that's what he wanted.

[B]

Okay, sweet. What else do you use?

[A]

What else do I. You mean what other cases? What have I said? You know, sometimes, you know, it. It's even like when I counsel other therapists. So some therapists come to me for therapy and I have to acknowledge my own limitations. You're not going to understand what it's like giving birth. You're not a woman. I am sorry. That's something that maybe a woman can only experience. You have to know what literally are your limitations. I am not going to to become a astronaut. I wish I could. I don't have the capacity for it. There are some times you have to tell people what your limitation is.

[B]

What's the difference between being in recovery and being recovered? Now this is an excellent question.

[A]

What's the difference between being recovered and Going through recovery. I'm going to get past the semantics here. I think you're always in recovery. I think every day is a fight, and that's what it's like for me.

[B]

That's what it's like for you, yeah.

[A]

Sober, no. But every day is a fight.

[B]

Well, you're going to see people are coming to you in crisis. They're not coming to you on a winning streak. Okay? So every one of those people that you've seen. Right. Is in recovery.

[A]

They are in recovery.

[B]

You believe somebody can be recovered.

[A]

I think you have to fight for maintenance. I think that's something that you have to hold on to.

[B]

Okay, so you haven't read my book. It's called Transcendence.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Okay. And it's about you can recover. Right. Let me give you an example.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

I was in Italy a couple years ago. Four years ago now. Three years ago now. God, this is good tv, isn't it? So three years ago, I went to Italy and I was in the most beautiful place with my feet grounded in the sand, looking over the Mediterranean. It was sparkling, like diamonds were dancing. And then I turn around and I look at the marble mountain. A mountain made out of marble, okay? And I was just in there, and this whole scene just made me well up. And that's why I call the treatment center Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa, because I named it after the town Carrera that I was in. It was one of the most magical times I've ever had. Now, I had a glass of wine, okay? And I'm sober, right? But I asked the guy to pair my food. Never had it. I wanted to pair the food. And, well, there was one dish, but he did it. And I'm drinking the wine, and about halfway through the glass, I feel it. And I went like this. I pushed the glass away to the center of the table. And my thought was, this feels nice. This is nice. Now, what the addict brain does is, this feels nice. More is better. That's the addict mind, okay? So the fact that you can do that, right? And since I've probably had 10 glasses of wine, never went to a second class, and I don't think I've ever finished a glass. But it feels nice. And so I do it. No wreckage, never a problem. Help everybody I can, right? Don't harm anybody. I think that there is a point where there is no struggle. And I know many people who have transcended addiction and alcoholism. That's a thing. And it doesn't get talked about because everybody wants to adopt the Disease model, and that's a lie. There is no tumor. There is no virus. Where's the disease agent? There is none. Am I wrong?

[A]

I think that that perspective is a good one because it brings some positive change. But I think some people don't get to transcend.

[B]

Most people don't get to transcend. 90% of the people don't get to transcend. And the reason they don't get to transcend is because they didn't do the work in order to transcend. It's something that you've got to work on. For example, I've got therapists. Back in the day, I found out that one or two of them didn't have their own therapist. And I told them they had a week to get their own therapist or they were gone. Because you can't give something away that you don't have. Okay, Same type of thing.

[A]

I think being transcended, as you put it, also requires a certain level of respect and maintenance. I do know that, heaven forbid, you don't maintain routines that brought you there, that you can fall back. Absolutely. And that's what I mean by never fully recovered, in my opinion. I think that it's something that you can get to, but I do think you need to maintain it.

[B]

Well, you need a healthy lifestyle, right? So when I wake up in the morning and I roll out of the rack and I'm. And I do my prayers and I get quiet for five minutes, I get in the shower, I come out, I work out. Don't worry, I don't get sweaty because I don't do it hard enough. Okay? And, you know, I take my medication, I give myself my shot, and, you know, I have my coffee and go to work. Now. That's my routine in the morning. It's been my routine now for 15 years, at least.

[A]

Can you imagine what would happen if you didn't have that routine for a year?

[B]

Yeah, I'd go insane. Because if you don't move your body, you get sick.

[A]

And that's my point, is that you always have to work at it. And I think that's something that people get to remember, have to know. You don't just get somewhere. And now you're fine. Right? Look, you're in great shape, aren't you? You're in. You're in great shape for 59.

[B]

I'm not pissed.

[A]

Well, just for a human, you're in great shape. That requires maintenance. If you don't maintain that, it's going to go away.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And that's the point. There is a gray area here. There's color. It's not just recovered and not recovered. There's something more here.

[B]

There's a process. Good. Okay. We're saying the same thing.

[A]

We are different ways.

[B]

Beautiful. Well, that's how people learn, right? They hear. They hear it in different ways. And, you know, they get clarity. Clarity's power. And then they can use it can actually be applied. Do you ever get pushback from other doctors? Like, who does this guy think he is? What's he doing?

[A]

Yes, I do. And not that example. I like to stay partially employed and contracted. I do what I think is best, and I wait.

[B]

You work for yourself?

[A]

I do work for myself.

[B]

You can't be canceled. You're top notch. People are going to come to you because they want the finest of everything.

[A]

I try to maintain a humble stance and understand that I'm not at your level and.

[B]

Oh, please, I'm in no way. First of all, I'm not a big shot. I'm at nobody's level.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

I'm fine. Go on.

[A]

Okay. Easy to say from where you're sitting. Okay.

[B]

I'm sitting in the same chair you're sitting in.

[A]

Yeah, but you own it, dude. Come on.

[B]

If you want the chair, you can take it with you on the way home.

[A]

Well, it won't fit my car, but I appreciate the gesture.

[B]

Okay, go on.

[A]

I don't get along with everybody. I'm blunt. That gets me into trouble, as you can tell. You are a blunt person as well. And you just sort of say how you feel. I don't mince words in that way. And I do get in trouble for that sometimes. There's treatment team has 20 different chefs in the kitchen. It's like, oh, this person said this, that person said that. This person said this. And it's like, I understand. But just like in a restaurant, there's a chef.

[B]

Have you ever gotten to a room with a team of people charged with treating one client and sat there in front of the client and the doctors and said, you're all idiots. Listen to me.

[A]

No, I.

[B]

You should try that. It feels really good.

[A]

I don't know if sometimes I think I'm the idiot, honestly, but I don't know if that would be good for the client because I think the client needs to trust the treatment team. I also don't like triangulation.

[B]

The treatment. Wait, wait. If the treatment team is horseshit and they're not serving the client, wouldn't you tell everybody in public that that's what's happening?

[A]

No, I. Generally what I do is I have a discussion with the team. I don't want to humiliate anybody or myself or the client.

[B]

No, no, of course you would have had the. Listen, of course you would have exhausted all of your remedies and you would have had the conversation with them. But I'm just assuming. Assuming that doctors, a lot of them have God complexes, right?

[A]

Yes. And I try to put mine in check all day, every day. I look in the mirror and I try to make sure it's not my baggage. But at the end of the day, yes, I've gotten there and I have taken people that I have been with me for years out of treatments to different places that I thought were better for them because the team wasn't aligned in a collaborative approach.

[B]

That's right. That's exactly right.

[A]

The client is my boss and the. And I. That's how I view it.

[B]

But you have a therapeutic alliance with your client.

[A]

Absolutely, I do.

[B]

Due to the fact that you are the psychologist and he's got medical doctors or whatever the hell he's got. Right. You're the psychologist. You're the one with the therapeutic alliance. You're going to get what you want.

[A]

I want an egalitarian approach where the client learns to trust themselves. And I don't tell them what to do with their own life. I don't want them dependent on me. I want them to leave me eventually and come back later. And if they need maintenance work with me, that's fine. But that's where it ends. I am not an enabler and I will never be that therapist that's a grandmother that's sitting there petting someone who's stuck in the same circle their whole life.

[B]

What are the five pillars? The five things you build every person around when you're rebuilding a life, and That's a horrible question. You don't have to have five pillars. You could have two or three or whatever it is. Yeah,

[A]

five pillars or two or three. I think one. I think I have to look at first of all, where they came from and what it is that they want in order to build a proper foundation. To me, that means a strong support system. A no support system. Forget it.

[B]

Well, don't you create the support system?

[A]

I try. It's.

[B]

Show me how. What would you do? It comes in no support system.

[A]

I go to 12 step meetings with them at times when they're scared to go. There's some 12 step meetings that maybe the client doesn't agree with and maybe I don't either. So we leave and we try to find the ones that actually vibrate with the client. And I try to meet people there. Like, that's the exposure I'm talking about. I connect them with case managers that can actually bring them the right kind of people around them. And I try to make a collaborative approach because I think.

[B]

Let me ask you a question. If you have someone that all they want is to be in a relationship, do you ever send them to, like, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous to look for the weak one? Or no.

[A]

Maybe that's where they come to me from. Honestly, if that's all they want.

[B]

No, I'm just. I can't.

[A]

We talk about why that's so important and why they can't find that inside and why they think that that's going to, like, save their lives all of a sudden, and why that sort of approach may lead to deep codependency and why that's not a great approach. Just, I just need a relationship, and I'll be happy, right? Be happy before so you can be happier and holy together with another person. Don't expect the other person to make you happy. That's way too much pressure on a human being.

[B]

You know, I didn't have a successful relationship until I learned her love language. If I would have understood that principle, right? That just means love her the way she needs to be loved. Right? Give her what she needs. Right. For example, I don't want anybody to cook for me. If I had somebody, you know, if I wanted somebody to cook for me, I'd be dating Julia Childs. Okay? That's not my love language. Right. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, do you ever teach them how to have a successful relationship and how to be a real man or woman?

[A]

I do my best in terms of helping them understand that the world doesn't revolve around them. And that's painful. That's the truth. You know, grandiosity is a bitch. And someone needs to hold up a mirror and say, hey, you have to see past yourself if you want to connect with someone else. And in order to do that, you have to listen. And in order to listen, that's how you find out what someone else's love language is. You know, taking a step back, looking at the bigger, bigger picture. That's a huge thing. And I think it's fundamental in good therapy. And that's something that's good with not just relationship therapy, but, you know, people who struggle with that struggle at work because they don't understand what other people want or what other people need.

[B]

You're exactly right.

[A]

And they don't know how to be vulnerable either, a lot of the times. And so we have to work on that. And again, that comes back to trust. You don't trust me. You can't be vulnerable with me. We got nothing. I'm going to send you to someone who you can trust.

[B]

Trust.

[A]

Or we can work on trying to trust. But beyond that, if you're unwilling to take off your mask, forget it. Go. Go get lost. Go to another office, because I'm not going to work with you.

[B]

Good. That's integrity. What's the most misunderstood concept in neuroscience right now? Something people keep quoting wrong on TikTok or podcasts.

[A]

Oh, wow. It's a loaded one. Contentious look. People keep labeling things over and over again for the same things over and over again, and it just continues to happen over and over again, whether it's being on the spectrum and quoting neurodiversity as being on the spectrum. And neurodiversity actually means that you don't have a regular, you know, neurological functioning. But then, you know.

[B]

Okay, but wait, go ahead. When you're neurodivergent, yes, you're gifted in a lot of areas, but you're weak in a lot of areas. Right.

[A]

It just means you're wired differently.

[B]

Okay, fine, you're wired differently. But are you or are you not gifted in certain areas? If you're neurodivergent, you're more likely to be.

[A]

But not always. You're more likely to be sure. You know, I think that's also the. A misconception is that you think someone that is neurodivergent is. I'm automatically, you know, has that. And sometimes they don't.

[B]

What I hate about that is when you label them as being somehow less than. It pisses me off because a lot of times they're better than in a lot of areas, and then they're weak at other areas, and you build up the weak areas.

[A]

You know, diagnostics, to me, they don't mean a lot as compared to functionality. Okay, let's.

[B]

Yeah, you want to do it? Yeah, give me a rant.

[A]

It was only a few versions ago that women having a job was a disorder.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

No, I'm not shutting up.

[B]

I missed it.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. And it's like a bunch of white dudes get together in a room and say, here's what everything is. No, it's for insurance. Diagnostics are meant to guide clinicians. But what if our obsession with Diagnosis is what's stopping us from getting better. Right. And I'm a glorified diagnostician, but I try to practice functionality. Right. First. What does this mean functionally? And I'll share a small story if you permit me to.

[B]

Would love you to.

[A]

I started out in a field 18, studying music, musician, state run home, adolescent kids. I met a kid and you know, we built a very strong attachment at that time. He was 11. He was non verbal, no eye contact. He had diapers. And I learned how to change his diapers. His hands were pretty bruised because he, you know, self injury was hitting himself. They told me he would never talk. They told me that he, he just was, he was. And I just worked with what I got. I sang to him, I changed his diapers, I helped prepare his food. And how old were you? 18. And we got to a point where one day as I was changing his diapers, I blew up the rubber gloves into balloons. And he took these gloves and he started hitting them. So it became a ritual where every day I changed his diaper and every day he would take the glove and hit them. Now fast forward a year later, bruises are gone. Fine. He's hitting these gloves. They're telling me that this home is closing and I have to say bye to this kid now. You have to remember I'm so unevolved at this point. It was a very, very delicate time for me. I was attached to this kid. I didn't know how to say bye. I went to go make him a balloon as a parting gift one final time. There were none left. I broke down. Snotty 18 year old kid with like a, a Jew fro looking, you know, completely unprofessional. He took my hand, you know, which that on his own was special because he doesn't touch people. He took my hand, he took me to his closet. He looked at me and he said okay. He talked, he said okay for the first time. And then he opened up his closet. There were like 300 freaking balloons in that closet. He kept every single one. He gave me one. That moment like that made my, my, I was like, I'm addicted. I want to do this for the rest of my life. That's how I got started.

[B]

I love that. I love that. What's the one thing you believe about the human brain that most your colleagues would roll their eyes at? Don't worry, I get that all the time, okay.

[A]

I believe that there are senses that we're unaware of. I believe that intuition is greater than you know. I do believe in A higher power. I don't believe that everything is science. I believe there are some things you just don't know. And I do believe that there are things that some people are able to do that some people aren't. I don't think. I don't think science explains everything. I really, really don't. And I don't. And I do think that there are cases where spirituality overrides it, I think,

[B]

because it centers you.

[A]

It centers you, but it also does things to you that maybe we can't explain in the brain. It connects you to people in ways that you can't explain. And I think it's really dramatically disrespected and not looked at enough.

[B]

Yeah. If God wants to get involved, it gets fixed. Okay, what's next? Where is this all going? Are we on the verge of a total revolution in mental health or are we just dressing up old ideas?

[A]

I think that people are tired. You know, the client calls. I get. People have been through treatment. It hasn't worked. They played thousands of dollars. What's different this time? I don't think we're necessarily at a place where things are getting better all the time. Some people are looking at ketamine, some people are looking at psychedelics. I think that those are interesting. But I think at the end of the day, we are dressing up old ideas. In some ways, I am not happy necessarily with the advancements. I think we're still. I think we don't know that much about people in the brain. I think that we pretend we do. I think that good health care is what it's always been. A person who knows themselves, knows their limitations, and actually can give that help to someone. I think those are the real differences.

[B]

I think mental health and the treatment of mental health is getting infinitely better very quickly. I really believe that. And I think it's important to be on the cutting edge of everything and every new modality. And I also think that the reason people look, the science is always 15 years roughly ahead of the practice. Sure, Right. So I think that's the problem. And I think it's getting better. I really do. And I think with the addition to AR of AI and as that gets better, it's going to assist you and other physicians. And it already is. Okay. By giving you, you know, your first draft. Right. And you're looking at it like, yes, yes, no, no, yes, yes, no. And you. I think it's. Do you use AI to assist you in any way? Absolutely.

[A]

It checks my grammar.

[B]

It checks your grammar?

[A]

Yes, it.

[B]

To check Your grammar.

[A]

I have atrocious spelling and grammar. Absolutely. Hold on. You.

[B]

Your AI is your English teacher?

[A]

Yes, God damn it. 100%. You know, I'm not. You know, I want to get an idea out. I want it polished and organized. It helps me do that. I do think that we are. AI can be useful, but I. I do think that sometimes the thing that's overlooked is that, like, not everyone and everybody is good at pairing people up with the right person. And I think that that connection with a person is the most important thing.

[B]

I do, too, but. I do. But they're not mutually exclusive.

[A]

I'll take it.

[B]

All right, if someone listening right now is barely hanging on, what's the one thing you want them to know about their brain, their healing and their hope?

[A]

What you're experiencing right now is temporary. It feels like forever. There are probably people in your life that you don't know of enough that would you really matter to. And even though you're worn out and even though you feel stuck in where you are, don't give up.

[B]

That was perfect. That was perfect. And we are going to end on that. I think if we take one thing from today, it's this. Your brain isn't broken. It's adaptive. It's protecting you in ways you might not even see. But the same system that kept you alive can also keep you stuck. And that's where the work begins. We're not talking about coping anymore. We're talking about transcendence. I'm Richard Tate. You already know we're out of time.

[A]

See you next Tuesday.

[B]

Yeah,

[D]

we're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube. Click the thumbs up and leave a comment.

[B]

Please subscribe.

[D]

Subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of Time podcast with others you know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.