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- [00:00]
Sonia Collin
When I found out he was cheating, I sent him one text. Very nice text. Didn't mention the cheating, just said, I'm not sure what to do here. I'm always here for you, blah, blah, blah. Gave him a couple of weeks, didn't respond, and I filed for divorce. I never heard from him again.
- [00:33]
Richard
If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement, that's 888-831-5881. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can.
- [00:45]
Sonia Collin
One call placement is affiliated with Carrera
- [00:48]
Richard
Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers. Today on we're out of Time, I'm joined by Sonia Collin, co host of the podcast Sisters in Sobriety. Sonia is part of a growing movement, especially among women who are rethinking their with alcohol and choosing sobriety for better mental health, clarity and connection. Through her podcast and community, she's created a space where women can talk openly about drinking culture, recovery and the pressures that often push people toward alcohol in the first place. Sonia, welcome.
- [01:24]
Sonia Collin
Hi, Richard, thanks for having me.
- [01:26]
Richard
Of course, for people who may not know your story yet, what led you personally to reevaluate your relationship with alcohol?
- [01:36]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, I think my story isn't that unique in the sense that I started drinking when I was in my early teens and really chalked it up as normal all through college. And, you know, kind of I had like the little extra few consequences like, oh, I'm getting my stomach pumped at the hospital after partying all night, but still kind of was in the realm of, of normal. And then when I, and then I went to dental school, I became a dentist, I did my residency, and all through that I became an orthodontist and I was steadily starting to drink with more frequency. And then when I was finally done with school, I was like 30. I really, I started to drink every night. And so I would come home from work and I would open a bottle of wine and again, like really was able to chalk it up as pretty normal. And like, I had a really high pressure career. We were, we had started our own practice and I had like, by, by the time I quit drinking and I sold my business, we had eight practices. And so I really was in this work hard, play hard sort of life. And I, you know, this hustle culture and making money and I don't have time to, you know, meditate and I don't have time to do all these other, I have no other cop mechanisms. And so I would come home, I would work like 14, 15 hours, come home and just drink until I passed out every night. And I knew there was, like, this idea in my head. My brother had gone to AA a few years before I quit, and I. You know, when. You know, when someone else does it, you just kind of know. You're like, oh, shit, like, my. My days are numbered. But I had no way out. I thought, you know, this is my life. Like, I work so hard, super successful. I'm not going to admit I have a problem. And then I got so, so lucky. It was like, life changing. I'm sure. What happened to you is life changing to you? When I got an offer from a private equity company to sell my practice, and the minute those conversations started, I knew I had to change something because I had never not been in school or not worked an obscene amount. And so I thought, what the hell am I gonna do? The. The agreement when we sold was to stay on and work for two years to help with the transition. I thought, that's like a 9 to 5 job. I've never had a 9 to. That's right. Yeah. And I thought, I'm gonna start drinking at 5 and. Because, like, before I could, like, push my drinking until like, 7, 8 o'. Clock. And then I thought, then what am I. I'm just gonna start. I'm just, you know, and then when those two years are up, I'm just gonna start drinking earlier and earlier and earlier. And so. And that did happen. So we sold the practice, and all of a sudden, yeah, I have no ownership, like, interest in the company, and I'm just sort of drinking earlier and earlier. And I. It wasn't really, like. It wasn't a rock bottom. It wasn't a dui. It wasn't anything like that. It was just like the sick and tired of being sick and tired. And so I had, like, a particularly bad hangover. And I went out to dinner, went out to lunch with a friend of mine, and I. I just remember the. The waiter saying, you know, would you like mimosa? And I thought, no. For the first time ever in my life, I would not like a mimosa. And so I said no to that drink. And then I. Because I also kind of like, started to think, okay, if I have the mimosa, I'll feel better. Then I have to keep drinking all day. And I had done that, right? I'll just keep drinking.
- [05:27]
Richard
Wait, wait, wait. You said you have to keep drinking all day. Did you have the dts? Did you shake when you stopped drinking?
- [05:33]
Sonia Collin
I didn't I. I would say I had really severe anxiety, but I would say the physical symptoms were pretty minimal. So maybe I was shaky, but didn't have the shakes. Like, I wouldn't drop something, for example. I was really lucky. And. And my brother, too, had been. Actually probably had gotten, like, a step or two past me with his drinking. Didn't have the shakes either. So genetically, I don't know. They're coming out with a lot of interesting thing about South Asians genetically right now. So maybe one of. That's one of them. Um, yeah, I just. I went home that night, and I. After lunch with my friend, and I didn't drink. And I think it was the first time I hadn't. I had gone a day without drinking in maybe a decade. And I woke up the next morning and like, all right, we're doing it, doing it, doing one more. Let's do one more day. And it was the first. I remember very clearly. Mondays were always the day I would wake up and say, I'm not going to drink today. And then I would, you know, drive by the liquor store on the way home and pick up alcohol. And when I got through that Monday, I thought, okay, I got something here. I got something. I got two days. And that was. I can't even tell you what it felt like two days was. And so that's. Whenever anyone tells me they've gone a day, I'm like, you did the hardest part. Like. And so I did two days, and then I just strung together. I white knuckled for a while, and I strung together some days, and I strung together some sobriety. And then I. I finally told my brother after a few weeks, and of course he wanted me to go to aa. And I said, no, it's not for me. What if there's. What if my patients are at the meetings? I had eight offices right in and around Philly. And so I'm like, where can I go to an AA meeting? Like, where are they going to see Dr. Cowan at their AA meeting and then call their, you know, report me to, like, you know, the dental board. And so, yeah, so that was my story about getting sober.
- [07:33]
Richard
Isn't that funny that every alcoholic, everyone that I've ever spoken to at the very beginning says, I'm embarrassed to go, what if somebody sees me? And it's like, dude, if they see you, they have the same shit going on. They'll be happy to see you. Unbelievable.
- [07:57]
Sonia Collin
I know.
- [07:58]
Richard
I remember one time that I started advertising on Grindr, and everybody was like, you can't do that. We're going to get a bad reputation. And I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, this is not okay. It's like. I'm like, what do you mean it's not okay?
- [08:18]
Sonia Collin
I'm like, yeah.
- [08:19]
Richard
They're like, well, somebody's gonna see it. I go, the only people who are gonna see it are the people who are on it, and those are the people we want to help. Unbelievable. Same thing.
- [08:31]
Sonia Collin
I do think there is a particular stigma. I'm sure you've treated a lot of professionals with professional licenses, and there is this stigma to it, to that and to any mental health thing, because every two years I renew my dental license. And there's a question, there's questions about, have you sought treatment for mental health? Have you sought treatment for addiction? Have you abused drugs or alcohol in the last two years? And if you answer yes, you have to provide some sort of explanation. And none of us answer yes because none of us want to, don't to know what the consequences are of saying yes and providing explanation.
- [09:11]
Richard
None of you say yes because we're alcoholics and we lie every time we open our mouth. Okay? So, I mean, if you're going to lie to keep up the secret life that you've got, you're not going to answer yes on the questionnaire. Right? I mean, it just doesn't work. The name Sisters in Sobriety really suggests community. Why is that sense of connection so important in recovery? And where the hell is your sister?
- [09:39]
Sonia Collin
Oh, my sister. So my, my, so my brother, fantastic alcoholic. Really just like a world class alcoholic. He's, he gets married, he gets sober, he gets divorced, he does it again. Like he, you know, and so the second time he did was with my sister in sobriety, Kathleen. And so he, he married Kathleen when he was sober. They stayed together like seven years. He stayed sober. And like within weeks of them breaking up, he relapsed pretty badly and had a DUI and lost custody of his kids. And so, and so it was really then I had been really quiet about my sobriety, like, for years. So I sold my business, I got sober. I just, like, very quietly stayed sober. Didn't have any community. I was married at the time. I'd been like, with my ex for, you know, almost 18 years by the time we broke up. And he was very sensitive to me labeling myself as anything or an alcoholic. So anytime we'd be out to dinner and I didn't order a glass of wine, for example, he'd say, oh, Sonia, doesn't drink. He didn't want me to say, oh, I'm sober. He really just even hated the term sober. So it was when, you know, my brother was going through that relapse that my, my ex sister in law, now Kathleen, and I got really close and we started talking a lot about sobriety. And she also at some point got sober from cocaine before she met my brother. And so as we're going through this, I'm like, there's something here. Like there are things we don't talk about, right? Especially as women, there's things we're not talking about. And then I went through my own divorce a couple of years later and had a really hard time staying sober. Like, really hard. Was like, what the hell, the point now, right? And, and again, like leaned on her a lot. And I, I remember I was starting to date with like just like disastrous results. Just disastrous, like literally like serial killers, like level, like of guys that I was going on dates with. And I remember after one of these particular serial killers, Kathleen said, like, you're so lucky you're alive. Like that guy has body parts in his freezer, you know, and, and I remember again, like wanting to drink and being like, I can't believe. So I'm gonna be alone for the rest of my life. And then I called her and I said, we need to start a podcast. Like there nobody talks about this stuff. Like, we, we talk a lot about like, I call it like drunk porn. I do a lot of work in prisons and, and one thing you don't do in prison porn. Yeah, yeah.
- [12:35]
Richard
Like, if you're interested in that, tell me about drunk porn.
- [12:38]
Sonia Collin
Okay, so like, okay, so I do a lot of work in prisons. And one thing you don't do is you don't ask somebody what they're in for. Okay? Like, you just don't, you, you don't, like, you know, you're not like, hey, what are you in for? And then, you know, you get this like, gory, sort of like salacious story. And so I think there's like trauma porn. I've met trauma porn guys who are kind of like, what's your trauma? You know, your dad beat you up kind of, you know, that kind of. They want the story.
- [13:04]
Richard
Got it.
- [13:05]
Sonia Collin
And I think that a lot of, a lot of, like, I wouldn't even say podcast, but a lot of like AA I find, and I love aaa. I'm not in aa, but it's a lot of drunk porn, right? It's just like you go and these guys have Been sober. I'm gonna say like these guys, just like lumping them all together to be this like 85 year old white guy smoking a cigarette, telling you about this like his worst.
- [13:29]
Richard
This is fun.
- [13:29]
Sonia Collin
He got drunk. And so this is new. They're the, These really. I wouldn't say they're depressing stories, but I'm not sometimes sure what the point. Point is of rehashing the worst parts of the worst stories.
- [13:43]
Richard
A lot of women today describe themselves as sober. Curious. What does that term actually mean? Because I can't stand it.
- [13:52]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, I, I look at it like, call yourself whatever you want as long as you are drinking less kind of thing or drinking in a healthy way. Right. So it doesn't really like alcoholic doesn't bother me. Substance use disorder doesn't. Like someone with substance use disorder doesn't. None of it bothers me. Addict doesn't bother me. Sober, curious doesn't bother me. None of it really does. I mean, I have some questions about being Cali sober that I've been trying to get answered, but ask.
- [14:22]
Richard
Ask them.
- [14:24]
Sonia Collin
Really? Yeah. So I've tried inner. Are you Cali sober? Would you describe yourself that way?
- [14:31]
Richard
I'm not sober at all.
- [14:32]
Sonia Collin
I know, but would you? Okay, so would you.
- [14:35]
Richard
I was just on your podcast. No, I'm not sober. Do you smoke
- [14:44]
Sonia Collin
weed?
- [14:45]
Richard
What?
- [14:45]
Sonia Collin
Do you smoke weed or do psychedelics?
- [14:48]
Richard
I have a wine. I like wine. Okay, that's, that's just, you know, I don't like hard booze. I. And I don't drink unless I'm at a fine restaurant with a salmonier. Okay.
- [15:01]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [15:02]
Richard
Because, you know, I, I had 20 years where I didn't do that. I was like, oh, that would have been nice. I missed that boat. Okay. But yeah, that, that's how I do it. So, so sober. Cali sober, though, is not sober. Okay, you're not, you're not sober if you're smoking pot. Now that's not the worst thing in the world. Some people have to smoke pot. Okay. Some people do it under the advice of a, of a, of a doctor. Okay. Because certain psych meds don't work for everybody. Okay. And that this is the best they can come up with. I don't make anybody wrong. What I want is I want everybody to live their best lives. And if you can do that, you know, drinking or using every once in a while, socially, I have zero problem with that. Unless you're creating wreckage. That's the key. If you're not, if you're creating wreckage or you're not reaching the goals and milestones in life that you want to reach, and you trace that back. Honestly, you have to be self honest. You have to be rigorously honest about this. And you check back and you say, am I not getting this done because I've been smoking pot or drinking or doing whatever? Okay? You got to be honest with yourself. And if that's true, that's the wreckage. The wreckage is not I ended up in jails, institutions, and death. The wreckage is I'm not who I was always meant to be. Okay? And that's painful. Okay? It's only painful when you stop drinking and you think about it, and then it's heartbreaking.
- [17:04]
Sonia Collin
I agree. I think it's. If you're not able to become that version of yourself, then that's the issue. I think that sober curiosity isn't necessarily for me, right? Like, I think that for me, for the foreseeable future, I think abstinence is working for me. But I think that. That there are people that kind of fit that the sober, curious profile where they're like, oh, I'm drinking more than I want to. I don't like how it makes me feel. They're not, you know, like, I was, which is like absolute shit show, like drinking every night that, like, yeah, I was. I was curious about sobriety too, but not curious enough to stop drinking. And so, yeah, so in that arc
- [17:53]
Richard
that you're talking about, right, that's. That's called the contemplation stage. That's what sober curiosity is. It's called. The first stage is like pre contemplation. I don't even have a problem, not even going to contemplate that. I got. This is complete denial. And then the contemplation stage, which comes after that. And this is how human beings change their behaviors. Okay, that's. Huh. Is this a problem? Maybe I should figure something out. Maybe I shouldn't do that sober curious.
- [18:30]
Sonia Collin
But what happens when we take that contemplation phase, though? So now we've taken sober curious and we made it into a movement, right? So I think it's a moderation. Not even moderation movement. It's a movement of like, oh, I can go a few weeks without drinking, and then I'm gonna mindfully drink and
- [18:48]
Richard
then I can go, yeah, this is all just. This is all just the same road to sobriety. Because you think so if you're. If you're sure. Because if you're sober curious, you're creating wreckage. You're not happy, you know, right. And so what are you gonna do? I can drink. I'll drink once a week. Well, then, you know, you're still got problems. And, you know, you try to do that and then you try to go to a. And then you try to do this and try to do that and you start working. Pretty soon four or five years has gone by, okay? And you could have gone to treatment, okay. You could have been a goddamn doctor by then.
- [19:23]
Sonia Collin
That's what I wonder. I wonder if it would have been better for, like, I. I do wonder this if someone gave me sober curious as an option, right? Like, you can still drink. You don't have to go all the way. Because I think that kept me from quitting was that, oh, what, Like, I can never drink again. But I do. I think I would have failed at being sober curious and I maybe would have like, around with it for like a couple of years. Matt tried not to drink. I just couldn't do it. So. Yeah. But I do feel like there have to be alternatives, Right? And that was another point of us starting the podcast. There have to be alternatives to aa. And so when most people think about, you know, not being happy with their alcohol use, they like, I did think, well, the only other option is aa. So I think it's. It's nice to have options and movements that are different.
- [20:16]
Richard
Absolutely. Because everybody needs something different. And I like. And I like that titration model for people that are not willing to give it up in one go. And the reason I like that is because it gets them to where they need to be eventually. Right. And, you know, you never want to be in a state of learned helplessness where you get to the point where you're like, what's the use? And you give up because that's over then. Then by the time you get somebody there and they're in that state long enough, it's very hard to dig them out of that hole.
- [20:55]
Sonia Collin
I think it's also really good for good branding. Like, I think that that has shifted the culture, the sober curious of it. I think that's why we have so many alcohol, free drinks and like NA beers and like that type of thing. I think it's the sober curious. I don't think. I don't. I'm not sure if they made n a beer for alcoholics or addicts. I think they made it for people who were like, well, I feel like going out to watch football, but I don't feel like getting trashed every Sunday. But I still feel like I want to be a part of it.
- [21:31]
Richard
I like the healthy, I like the healthier aspects of this movement, for sure. Anything that will get people off drugs and alcohol or moderate it to the point where they can have their best life, I'm on board with that. All right. Drinking culture has become so normalized.
- [21:51]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [21:52]
Richard
Wine, nights, mommy juice, social drinking everywhere. Why do you think alcohol is so embedded in modern culture, especially for women?
- [22:02]
Sonia Collin
I think this goes back to again, like why we started the podcast. It's coping mechanisms too. Right. And so I think that for, for me, it was like successful women. That's sort of like what you do, right? And even when you're mentioning like, yeah, we, I lived in New York and you're going to like Michelin star restaurants and they're pairing wine. And I wasn't having like a half a glass of wine like you were having. I was having like 15 glasses of wine with a 15 course meal. But I think it's just really embedded into, like, how we socialize, how we cope. When I was going through my divorce, I wasn't very, until then, hadn't people knew I didn't drink, but they didn't really know why. And so my friends that, that didn't know why were like, come over, honey, let's have a bottle of wine and we can just talk shit about your ex. And so I think that that's just sort of how we cope and how we socialize as. I mean, I think as women, but I think men do it too. They just do it like, you know, they just like, drink beer at a football game. But I think it's just a way. I just wasn't ever, when I think about it, like, yeah, wasn't ever comfortable being myself. Right. And so it was so much easier to drink and be someone else. And so during the divorce, it was like, yeah, you think I don't want. I want to sit around and drink like four bottles of red wine and talk about my ex too, you know? So I don't, I don't want to go work out. I don't want to meditate on it. Like I want to light the house on fire, you know? And so that. It was that moment that made me realize I had already been sober for five years when we broke up. But I hadn't really, like, sat there and thought about the coping mechanisms. And also those five years were easy. I had sold my business. I didn't have like a lot of the normal stressors. And so I didn't need that level of coping. And so it was when I was Sort of confronted with it. It was like, oh, I can't drink over this. Like this is. And, and also it was. Yeah, it was, it's part of our culture, like to, you know, like, let's just sit around. I mean, if you're gonna drink over anything, you're gonna drink about, you know, over your husband sleeping with your friend.
- [24:23]
Richard
You know, your husband sleep. Slept with your friend.
- [24:26]
Sonia Collin
Sure did. Yeah.
- [24:28]
Richard
Oh, sorry, we gotta lead with that next time. Okay, Tell me about that. Catch him in the bed. Did you catch them? Hold on.
- [24:37]
Sonia Collin
No.
- [24:37]
Richard
Did you catch them in your bed?
- [24:39]
Sonia Collin
No, I did not. And so last drink I had, we were out with our friends and we were at a BYO and we drank like crazy. I had this crazy hangover. Turns out that is who he slept with was that friend that, that I had my last drink with. And she was like a really big partier. And I think that look, I hate to say it, that like sobriety changes. It changes some relationships for. Not for, for the worse. But my marriage changed when I got sober. I thought it would change for the better, right? Because I'm not trashed and blacked out all the time. But he, he wanted someone to party with and so, you know, he didn't have to look that far because she was like right over there.
- [25:29]
Richard
And she was your best girlfriend.
- [25:31]
Sonia Collin
No, no, no, not best friend. I even like her that much. We were like, we were friends and like mostly couple friends. She was also a dentist, so we had like a lot of like dentists are such whores. Such just hoes. Like, just hoes. Tell me about that.
- [25:49]
Richard
No, no, no. How did you find out about the cheating?
- [25:53]
Sonia Collin
So he what now? We, we. My family thinks like my, my sister in laws are like, he faked a mental health crisis. He was like, I have so much anxiety. I lost all this money in crypto. I don't know what's going on. Okay, so he's like, I need to get some space. So he says he's going to go help these friends of ours in Philly with their dental practice. And then he just leaves and he doesn't come back. And we were fine. Like we were fine. Like the night before we were fine. And my sister in laws are like, you need to come home to Toronto. So I go back to Toronto, I'm like, I'll just go back home for a week. And they're like, you need to figure out what's going on. And so I look at like our doordash and uber accounts and like credit cards and like Verizon bill. And it was like this idiot didn't even try to hide it, right? It was so obvious that.
- [26:55]
Richard
That's so disrespectful. That's so disrespectful. At least try to hide it. At least have enough self respect for your wife to try to hide it.
- [27:03]
Sonia Collin
In his defense, I think that he was like, we had, like, in a sense, sense for. I don't know how this had happened to me, considering, like, I, like, was successful and like, we went, you know, we had the same level of education, but for some reason he had access. Like, he ran all of our accounts. So I never logged into the credit card. I never logged into our phone bill. I, you know, once in a while I would order like, Uber Eats, but I wasn't, like, looking at old orders. And so I think he thought, she's not going to look. She never looked before. She probably doesn't even know how to log into, like, the American Express account. But I did. I figured it out. And when I did, it was, like, ugly. It was ugly.
- [27:42]
Richard
And what happened? What did you do? You confront them?
- [27:47]
Sonia Collin
So this is interesting. So he had basically, this is. It's the craziest story. My therapist will tell you, too. Like, this isn't a normal story. Like, and the lawyer said the same thing. He disappeared. So he. We were, as in, like, timeout, timeout, time out.
- [28:04]
Richard
Do you guys have kids?
- [28:05]
Sonia Collin
No. Thank God.
- [28:06]
Richard
Thank God. Okay. God.
- [28:09]
Sonia Collin
We had two little dogs and, you know, in an investment account. And so I, He. So he says, I'm gonna go help these friends. I'm having this mental health thing. So I'm, like, looking, finding him, like, psychiatrist, like, coaches. So he didn't handle, I don't know how you handled the sale of your business, but his identity was wrapped up in us and our, like, success, right? And so being an entrepreneur and building this huge practice and selling it. And then, you know, I think when we sold, and also we had been used to this certain level of busyness. And so without that, his identity just started to crumble. And at the same time that I got sober, he said, okay, I'll stop smoking weed. And he smoked a lot of weed. And so I think that, that this is the difference between doing the work and not doing the work. I kind of feel like, you can stop drinking, you can stop smoking weed, you can stop doing drugs, but unless you do the work behind it and figure out who you really are, I think you're gonna, you know, destroy your life. Like, basically, it's like, leave destruction wherever you go. And so that is basically what he did. And so he.
- [29:34]
Richard
Is he still sleeping with the dentist?
- [29:36]
Sonia Collin
I don't know. Okay. So what I did was I said I had been trying to text him, right? For the. He had been gone a few weeks. I'd been trying to text him.
- [29:46]
Richard
He'd been gone a few weeks and never called.
- [29:49]
Sonia Collin
Called maybe a couple of times. At the beginning.
- [29:52]
Richard
This guy was smoking crack in a room full of hookers.
- [29:55]
Sonia Collin
Yes. That's what this guy was doing. Yes, yes. So then I was like, this is like. It was shocking. Like, after 18 years, I'd not even gone a day ever without even talking to him. So slowly stopped responding to texts. Slowly, slowly, slowly. When I found out he was cheating, I sent him one text. Very nice text. Didn't mention the cheating. Just said, I'm not sure what to do here. Like, I love you very much if you won't, you know, even let me in or respond to my texts or even. I'm not sure, like, what I can do. I'm always here for you, blah, blah, blah. Gave him a couple of weeks, didn't respond, and I filed for divorce. I never heard from him again. Ever, ever. Shut up. Never heard from him again. So then the sheriff shows up at my. I live in this tiny town in Pennsylvania, and the sheriff shows up like, I'm Indian, right? I know y' all can't see, but, like, when the sheriff shows up and you're the only non white person in the town, you're like, like. So the sheriff says, you know, we found your car abandoned in New Jersey in Camden, New Jersey. And I was like, my car's in the garage. And this is like, six months after we had separated. And they, like, you know, said, oh, it's like this car. And I was like, that's the car he has. And so he had, like, just left his car in a.
- [31:18]
Richard
Do we even know if this guy's alive?
- [31:21]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, I think he's alive because he signed the divorce papers a couple months after that. So he's alive.
- [31:28]
Richard
Well, that was years ago.
- [31:31]
Sonia Collin
Four years ago. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.
- [31:33]
Richard
He never even came back for the dog.
- [31:36]
Sonia Collin
Never came back. Our dogs were. Yeah, they both have passed now. They were 16 when they passed. Yeah, he never came back for anything. I had, like. I moved his stuff into the garage, and his mom came with movers to move.
- [31:52]
Richard
What did she think? What did she say about this?
- [31:54]
Sonia Collin
She. I wasn't here when they came. They asked.
- [31:56]
Richard
No, no, no, no, Are you. Is she like, oh, well, he's my baby boy, or is she like, he's an idiot?
- [32:01]
Sonia Collin
No, he's my baby boy.
- [32:03]
Richard
Okay, well, now we know why he's the way he is.
- [32:06]
Sonia Collin
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:07]
Richard
What about the dad?
- [32:08]
Sonia Collin
The dad, Same thing. I've heard that. I heard the dad said something to someone that. No, that I know. That was like, they're really upset with him. Like, he's really upset with him. He can't believe he did this.
- [32:19]
Richard
Well, how could they not be upset with him? You're a dentist. You're an elegant woman. You're. You're nurturing and kind to him, and I can tell that you were a good wife and you loved him.
- [32:30]
Sonia Collin
I can tell that.
- [32:32]
Richard
Okay. You guys just didn't transition well from the business, and that's not uncommon. I didn't transition well either. I was scared to death of the money.
- [32:43]
Sonia Collin
Scared. Yes, I was. So the difference was, I was scared. I still remain scared of it.
- [32:49]
Richard
Right.
- [32:50]
Sonia Collin
He loved it. This dude wants a chopper to the Hamptons. He wants to, like. Do you know what I mean? Like, we reacted to it very differently, and neither of us in a super healthy way. So I was terrified of it. Still am to some extent. And he was like, oh, maybe this can be my new identity.
- [33:12]
Richard
Okay. So his thing was, I want to buy a bunch of shit.
- [33:15]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [33:16]
Richard
Okay. And your thing was, I don't know what to make of this right now. This is a little scary. I've never been here before. I want to take my time to level up here.
- [33:26]
Sonia Collin
Yes. And I'm getting sober, and all these new feelings are coming up, and all of a sudden, I want to be around, like, my. My young nieces who I didn't want to be around when I was drunk. They weren't fun. And so, yeah, I was changing a lot. A lot. And so.
- [33:43]
Richard
How old are you?
- [33:44]
Sonia Collin
47.
- [33:45]
Richard
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:48]
Sonia Collin
When did you sell your business in.
- [33:52]
Richard
In 2018. I was 52 when I did it.
- [33:57]
Sonia Collin
So what was the transition like?
- [34:00]
Richard
It was. It was. Well, it was like hell. Okay. I was afraid of the money. I. The wire hit on a Friday, so.
- [34:11]
Sonia Collin
To mine.
- [34:12]
Richard
2:30.
- [34:12]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [34:13]
Richard
In the afternoon. Okay. And I was. I. I was in shock. I'm, like, looking at it, and I'm like. I couldn't speak. You have to understand, in the last year that you're selling your business, you feel like you just gave birth to an accountant. Right?
- [34:29]
Sonia Collin
No, I know.
- [34:30]
Richard
I know.
- [34:30]
Sonia Collin
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:31]
Richard
It's the hardest thing in the world.
- [34:32]
Sonia Collin
It's like, it was Violating. It's a violating experience.
- [34:36]
Richard
It's all violating. It's completely violating. That's an excellent way to describe it.
- [34:41]
Sonia Collin
It was. It was a Violet. Yeah. I remember that feeling of just being like, oh, this sucks.
- [34:45]
Richard
And with all of that, it was just too much, you know? I was. I remember on Monday, I'm getting up to go to work, and my friend Meredith looks at me and she's like, where are you going? I'm like, I'm going to the office. She's like, baby, sit down.
- [35:03]
Sonia Collin
Meredith sounds like more than a friend.
- [35:05]
Richard
She goes, you don't have an office. Yeah, you don't have an office. Sit down. And I went. And I was, like, really upset.
- [35:15]
Sonia Collin
To me, it was the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I think that. And this has a lot to do with my drinking and all that, but I don't think I ever really wanted to be an orthodontist. I think that I'm Indian.
- [35:27]
Richard
Well, you have Indian parents, and so they probably beat you with a ruler until you became a doctor.
- [35:31]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, yeah. More than a ruler, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think that for me, it was finally, like, a freedom of, like, what do you want to do? Like, you never had a choice. Like, I can't even remember a time that it wasn't like, you're going to be a pharmacist, a dentist, or a doctor. And so it was like. Like, to me, it was like the world opened up, and when the wire hit, it was, like, one of the most. Even thinking about it makes me emotional. And even now, I live a pretty normal life. And so I haven't changed much since then. I live in the same house. Like, I have the same car, but I. It is the. Still the, like, best thing that ever happened to me. I got sober. Right. Because of it. And so. Yeah, but I do understand what you're saying. When. So for me, when it was, like, Monday morning and it's, like, time to go to the office, I was like, no way. Like. And I still wake up Monday mornings, and I'm like, yeah, I don't have to go to the office. There is no one happier than me to not have to go to an office.
- [36:47]
Richard
I have too much time on my hands.
- [36:51]
Sonia Collin
You have the number one mental health podcast and a new treatment center.
- [36:56]
Richard
I know, I know, but I got the best people in the world that work with me, so trust me when I tell you, look, I didn't have to staff the place.
- [37:06]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, Okay.
- [37:07]
Richard
I called my old place, and I Said I'm sorry for the late notice, but everyone comes home today and everyone's like, we're doing it again. I'm like, yeah, we are. And so 10 people gave their notice in an hour to come here.
- [37:21]
Sonia Collin
So when I read the article about you before I read the whole thing, I knew exactly. I was like, oh, he had a five year non compete. I had a five year non compete and I was sober five years. I got sober right when we sold and my marriage ended around the five year mark because I didn't want to do it again. All so that was another thing. He was ready at the end of the five years to like do the whole thing again, just do another business, do all the offices again, basically dot them around the same areas and do the whole thing again. And I was like, no, I'm not doing that again.
- [37:57]
Richard
Right.
- [37:57]
Sonia Collin
It almost killed me first time.
- [37:59]
Richard
It's hard to get started again. And what. And, and the part that it. Tell me if this is the same for you. It made, it made me soft. It made me soft. My resiliency, my resiliency wasn't good. My just, you know, I was just, it was just weak.
- [38:21]
Sonia Collin
I like people so much more now. Like I can't be mean. I can't run a business the way I used to run a. I was a bitch.
- [38:29]
Richard
So was I. And I can't, I can't, I cannot. I love my. I still don't know why 31 people left, you know, one of the finest places in the world and came to do this with me.
- [38:42]
Sonia Collin
I think my people would come too. And I. Look, what was your excuse? I wasn't sober, so that's why I was a bitch. I mean, like, you know, I hadn't done any work yet. Right. Like I was like raw, ambitious, money hungry, like non empathetic. Hadn't worked on my own shit at all. At all. And so I was a beast at work. I, I wonder why you were.
- [39:08]
Richard
Well, because I'm a perfectionist and. Okay. And I never had a win. I've. Before this one, I never had a big win now, you know, and so I'd always struggled and you know, I was always. Look, when I was a kid, my dad left the family, found another family and stopped paying the mortgage. I was so afraid of failing that I believed that if my foot wasn't on the gas at all time and I didn't outwork everybody, I was going to fail.
- [39:47]
Sonia Collin
That's how I felt.
- [39:49]
Richard
Okay. And you know, I had two small children and my father failed. He Failed us. Okay. We lost our home, and I wasn't going to lose my children's home. I wasn't going to do it. And so. And I'm a perfectionist. So I ran, man. I ran my place like I was Suge Knight.
- [40:13]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, me too.
- [40:14]
Richard
Okay. I mean, that's how I ran it.
- [40:16]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [40:17]
Richard
Okay. And this time I'm like, remember the movie Meet Joe Black?
- [40:25]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [40:26]
Richard
Right. And how elegant Anthony Hopkins was in that film.
- [40:31]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [40:31]
Richard
That's how I run my business today.
- [40:35]
Sonia Collin
I. You're making me wonder if I could do it. I think for me, that I thought that, like, my edge also came from, like, the. The anger and the anxiety, and. And that also is fueled by, like, the drinking and the drugs. And so I think that. And we talked a little bit about fear before. I think there's this fear that I can't be as successful. Being soft, for sure. Yeah, sure.
- [41:07]
Richard
Absolutely. But isn't it weird that with time and space and. And sobriety and therapy and just doing whatever you can to just be your best self? Right. Over time, these little increments each day make your whole world different after a year and two years and five years. Right. And then what happens is you look back and you go, oh, my God, I owe these people an amends. I. There's got to be something I can do for them. Make it right. Put their kids through college. I don't care. Whatever it is, you've got to. You got to make it right. And, you know, I'm proud of who I am today, and I don't know
- [41:53]
Sonia Collin
you
- [41:55]
Richard
at all, but I. I'm. I'm proud of who you are. Like, I'm looking at you and I'm like, you're fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.
- [42:07]
Sonia Collin
What are your metrics now, though, for a success? Because I think that's another thing I struggle with where, like, money can't be the measure anymore of success.
- [42:17]
Richard
Right?
- [42:17]
Sonia Collin
Like that. So what? Yeah, what? So I. I work a lot in therapy about, like, redefining success now for myself, and so I feel like I've redefined it as, like, yeah. Being able to stay sober, being able to keep my blood pressure, like, down. Being able to stay calm. Like, what are your. Like, while still doing good things. But, like, what are your metrics now? Because you're still, like, you got the number one podcast. You know what I mean? So you're still achieving at a really high level. Is that still. Is that still, like, hitting your dopamine, like, centers, do you think, or.
- [42:54]
Richard
No, I don't think. Listen, I don't know anything about my podcast. I, like I said, I never saw a podcast. I've never listened to a podcast. I don't get the fact that I've got the number one mental health podcast in the country. I don't understand it. I don't get it. Okay. I, I don't think anybod. Nobody's listening. Okay. I mean, they are. I mean, well, it's funny, I'm getting. I get pulled over on the street. Well, when I was in la, I got pulled over on the street a couple times. Kids are taking selfies with me. Right. I just didn't understand it.
- [43:25]
Sonia Collin
You're like Jay Shetty. You're like bigger than Jay Shetty.
- [43:29]
Richard
Oh, funny. First of all, he's fantastic. He's a thousand times better than me. And I didn't even know who he was. And I've only seen a couple of clips on, on, on Instagram or something, but he is fantastic. But the funniest part about it was when I broke into the top 10 and I showed my ex, who I'm still very close with, best woman alive.
- [44:01]
Sonia Collin
You don't have to rub that in. That I haven't seen my ex in four years and he might be dead.
- [44:07]
Richard
Well, if he's dead, nobody's gonna, Nobody, nobody. But his mother is gonna give a.
- [44:12]
Sonia Collin
It's true.
- [44:13]
Richard
So anyway.
- [44:13]
Sonia Collin
Yeah.
- [44:13]
Richard
Because you don't have kids. The dogs are gone.
- [44:16]
Sonia Collin
Yep.
- [44:16]
Richard
And his only. And his only. And his only enabler is his mother.
- [44:20]
Sonia Collin
Yep. So, okay, so your ex.
- [44:23]
Richard
So she looks at me and she says, unfortunately, sweetie, you'll never be number one because Jay Shetty is the best. And so I just looked at her and I said, this man's in the way and walked out the room. Right. So when I got to number one, I sent it to her. But what I didn't tell her was he's so much better than me. It's disorienting. Okay. He is. You know, there's some of these people that, that I'm ahead of that. I've listened to a couple of their things. Right. They're all better than me. All of them.
- [45:03]
Sonia Collin
Not better. He's different. I'm not going to talk about a light eyed Indian, but like, you know, there is just a different vibe.
- [45:11]
Richard
When you were drunk, did you ever do something that you were ashamed of? Like, you know, a gang bang or
- [45:18]
Sonia Collin
you want a drunk porn story?
- [45:20]
Richard
Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:22]
Sonia Collin
Oh, okay. The worst. Not worst, but this is what my, my fallback was always like. I think I was always really uncomfortable with, like, who I was. Right. And I was not cool enough and not pretty enough, and so I would always try.
- [45:37]
Richard
Who told you you weren't. Who told you you weren't pretty enough?
- [45:39]
Sonia Collin
We all know who. Indian parents don't like it. A dark skin. They don't like a tint.
- [45:45]
Richard
Why?
- [45:46]
Sonia Collin
Oh, they're colorists. Indians are colorists. They're, like, notorious colorists, right?
- [45:51]
Richard
What do you mean? They like. They. They. They wish their skin was whiter.
- [45:54]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They bleach their skin. They like. Yeah.
- [45:57]
Richard
The more gnarly I think Indian women are.
- [46:01]
Sonia Collin
Yeah. The lighter skin you have, the more, like, marriageable you have. You are. And so there's, like. There's this website where Indians go to, like, meet other Indians, shoddy.com, which means, like, marriage. And so it's kind of like. Like, it's Indian online dating. And. And they have, like, ways you can
- [46:16]
Richard
do any Indian sugar baby websites.
- [46:19]
Sonia Collin
I don't. I wouldn't be. I'd be on the shirt, the other side of it. I don't need a sugar baby. I need, like, a sugar. Well, I need my own sugar baby. I wouldn't be.
- [46:27]
Richard
As I was asking for a friend.
- [46:31]
Sonia Collin
I don't think Indian women are necessarily open about wanting to be sugar babies.
- [46:39]
Richard
No.
- [46:40]
Sonia Collin
No. So I don't think they would put themselves on a website. But shoddy.com, you select what your skin tone is. So there's, like, wheatish. Like, wheatish is sort of like. Yeah, you don't want to be wheatish.
- [46:52]
Richard
In your experience, what are some of the early warning signs that someone's relationship with alcohol might be unhealthy? I'm gonna answer that.
- [47:02]
Sonia Collin
I. I figured you would.
- [47:06]
Richard
Okay. One of the early warning signs is, my husband never comes back home.
- [47:13]
Sonia Collin
I was sober for five years when he did that. That's what's critical. That is what is so crazy. No, the point is, is that you think. I think when you get sober that everything is going to be better. Right. Your relationships are gonna be better, your health is gonna be better. Everything is gonna get better. And it's not necessarily true. There's stuff you have.
- [47:37]
Richard
It is true. It is true. Because. Because that was a net positive. By losing that.
- [47:43]
Sonia Collin
Yes, I see what you're saying.
- [47:44]
Richard
Your life got. Your life got much better. We think we know.
- [47:49]
Sonia Collin
Okay.
- [47:49]
Richard
But then we look back on it and we go, oh, that's why that happened. Oh, that's why that.
- [47:53]
Sonia Collin
I mean, I think getting sober reveals things that maybe you don't necessarily want to See? Or it also will get rid of people from your life that aren't maybe meant to be there. You could look at it like that.
- [48:06]
Richard
Let's talk about that for a second. Because that's one of the things that is the most freeing thing that I did. I got rid of half the people that I was dealing with in my life. Just cut them loose because, you know, it was a grind. And I went ahead and I thought to myself, okay, if these people aren't adding value to my life, then I don't want them around anymore. Okay? And I'm not talking about monetarily. This is not something I, I care about. I'm talking about, do we enjoy each other's company? Do I like talking to you? Do we support one another? Can I rely on you? You know, just all of it. It, like if it wasn't something that was good for me and good for my soul, I got rid of it. How about you?
- [49:14]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, for sure. Right. I think the hard thing is knowing how to do it. It's kind of a skill for people who don't sort of get rid of, you know, how I did it, how
- [49:24]
Richard
I, I block them and then erased their contacts so I would never have to deal with them again. All of it.
- [49:35]
Sonia Collin
Did you talk to your therapist about this before you did it?
- [49:39]
Richard
No, I, I'm the most over therapized person on the planet. I can finish my therapist sentences.
- [49:45]
Sonia Collin
I would say that there, there are healthy ways also to end relationships, but it's not always going to work out that blocking people.
- [49:55]
Richard
Oh my God, your husband walked out on your house. That's the ultimate block.
- [49:59]
Sonia Collin
It was such a block.
- [50:02]
Richard
Dominates the headlines, but alcohol still kills thousands every year. Do you think it's dangerous or underestimated the alcohol part of it?
- [50:13]
Sonia Collin
You know, I think that, and we talked about this briefly when you were on, on our podcast that I think the margin of error with, with opioids is so much smaller than alcohol. Right. But I think alcohol is so ubiquitous so and, and related to like so many chronic conditions that that's probably where the balance is that. Yeah, I think. But I think now don't you feel like. I feel like drinking, like not drinking is part of like wellness now. Right. Like it's.
- [50:49]
Richard
Yeah, I think it's like smoking.
- [50:52]
Sonia Collin
The world's like how smoke. Yeah, like smoking. Like everybody now knows smoking's bad for you, I think. But people still smoke. I think most people know now that alcohols.
- [51:02]
Richard
Who smokes? Who do you know that smokes?
- [51:04]
Sonia Collin
Okay, so this Is really interesting. Okay, so I quit smoking 17 years ago, and I was like, who starts smoking? Like, who actually. Like, who starts anymore or who smokes anymore? I. I am. I've been dating someone for the last few months that smoked when we met, and now he, like, has a nicotine patch on all the time.
- [51:29]
Richard
Good.
- [51:30]
Sonia Collin
Yeah. So I met people that.
- [51:31]
Richard
Well, you weren't gonna stick your tongue down somebody's.
- [51:34]
Sonia Collin
No, no. I told him. I told him it tastes like an ashtray. The first time we kissed, I said, oh, do you smoke? And he said, yeah. And I'm like, that's not gonna work. Like, for me long term. Like, that's not. And he. Like that. That guy slept at patch on that night, never looked back.
- [51:49]
Richard
So he likes. He loves you.
- [51:51]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, I think so.
- [51:52]
Richard
Yeah.
- [51:53]
Sonia Collin
He does. Yeah. You think? But I mean, absolutely.
- [51:56]
Richard
Gave up smoking for you.
- [51:58]
Sonia Collin
Smoking is bad for you. You should give it up. It's sort of like, how long was he smoking for? G. Long time. Decades.
- [52:06]
Richard
He gave up smoking for you? It doesn't matter if it was a bad. It was bad before he met you. Well, gave up smoking for you.
- [52:14]
Sonia Collin
Okay, agreed. I also.
- [52:18]
Richard
That's a guy you want to be around. You know what? That's a guy. Here, let me help you out. That's a guy who is the complete opposite of someone that leaves the house and never comes back.
- [52:32]
Sonia Collin
Yes.
- [52:32]
Richard
Right.
- [52:33]
Sonia Collin
I was looking for the complete opposite.
- [52:35]
Richard
That's. And that's what you found.
- [52:38]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, that's true. But I do think so. I think that cigarettes for, like, probably the last, like, 20 years or 15 years have, like, an ick factor, and I think alcohol is developing that ick factor. Do you see it, like, especially in your kids?
- [52:53]
Richard
I think that the kids today are less apt to drink and use than before, than when we were kids. I think a lot of that has to do with. With the crisis and everybody overdosing due to the street drugs all being laced with all. So I think that not just obviously what I do and what you do and what. You know, there's a gazillion of these podcasts now. Everybody. Everybody has to have an opinion. Right? But what the good part about that is, is that there's so much content out there on every platform talking about, you know, I was dangerous, it's killing our kids, you know, and it's scaring the. Out of people, which is good. Okay. Because it's keeping people alive, and it's saving a lot of lives. And you know what, man? I don't know how many lives we're gonna save doing this. I have no idea. Okay. But who cares? It's good. It's decent. Right? And that's what we do. And, yeah, you do it better than anybody.
- [54:01]
Sonia Collin
But I think changing the culture. Right. Is. Is important, too. That's why, like, when we talk about the sober curious, it's like, do whatever. Do whatever. Make it cooler to not drink. Like, let's just do that. Make it.
- [54:11]
Richard
Yeah, yeah. The kids. The kids today are definitely. Look, it's split. You're still going to have the. The loser kids in high school that can't stop smoking and do it and smoking pot and drinking and doing drugs and all that other stuff. But it's not prevalent like it was when I was a kid. My kid is. My kids are in a school, and maybe 15 of the kids are screwing around. 85% are not. Yeah, good kids. Yeah.
- [54:47]
Sonia Collin
How old are your kids?
- [54:50]
Richard
12 and 16.
- [54:52]
Sonia Collin
Oh, my God.
- [54:54]
Richard
Yeah, I know. I'm very lucky. All right. Do you think we're seeing the beginning of a cultural shift away from alcohol, especially among younger women?
- [55:04]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, I definitely do. Like, we were just talking about. I think it's. Yeah, I think that. That they're super aware of their health in ways that, like, I don't even think I thought about what I put in my body until I was, like, 35. And I think now when I look at, like, my nieces, they're like, 20, 21, 19, and 11. They're so much more aware of what they're putting in their bodies. And. Yeah. And they're not like, the. The older ones, like, not. Not drinkers and, like. Yeah, I definitely. I definitely think that there's a shift away from that with that age. I was. And everybody around me was partying. Like, going to college was about partying and drinking. I mean, these, like. Not that it's like University of Toronto.
- [55:54]
Richard
Okay, well, that's why.
- [55:55]
Sonia Collin
No, it was. Yeah, it was crazy. Well, so the drinking age In Canada is 19, so. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that, yeah. When I see them and, like, they work out. I didn't work out till I was 38. Like, I'm sort of shocked at how much they know about wellness and. And. Yeah. How much they know about what they're putting in their bodies. They do skin care. It's like, what.
- [56:20]
Richard
That's right.
- [56:21]
Sonia Collin
I used to wash my face with a bar of soap.
- [56:24]
Richard
What have you personally gained since becoming sober that you didn't expect? I can answer that for you.
- [56:33]
Sonia Collin
Yeah, no, I bet you can. I lost a Husband. Yeah.
- [56:37]
Richard
Freedom.
- [56:37]
Sonia Collin
Yeah. I lost, like, £200.
- [56:39]
Richard
Yeah.
- [56:41]
Sonia Collin
That was pretty amazing.
- [56:43]
Richard
Of douchebaggery.
- [56:44]
Sonia Collin
Yeah. I mean, I really. I don't know if, you know that Mary Carr quote about, like, I thought that. That I would lose the sparkle, like, when I stopped drinking. And so I really, I thought that those, like, you know, those moments of, like, awe, like when, you know, after you've had, like, your first couple of drinks or you. Your first, like, snort of coke and you're like, oh, my God. Like, I thought that those sort of, like, epic moments were over, and now I have them, like, all the time.
- [57:15]
Richard
Like, and they're more meaningful.
- [57:17]
Sonia Collin
So much more meaningful. Like, so much more. Like life changing. There's no comedown after. And it's like, I really. I think. I mean, and we've spent the last couple of hours together. I mean, I think I'm really fun. And I did not think I would be fun anymore. I thought I'd be sober.
- [57:40]
Richard
Is there anything that we miss talking about or that you want to promote?
- [57:45]
Sonia Collin
No. I mean, of course. Sisters in Sobriety, our podcast, which we love. Yeah. But other than that, I just want to come here and hang out with you.
- [57:53]
Richard
This has been a great time. I really appreciate it.
- [57:59]
Sonia Collin
See you next Tuesday. Me.
- [58:01]
Richard
There it is. We're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube, click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of Time podcast with others. You know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.